asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he is aware that the provisions of the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1948, relating to the protection of sitting tenants of agricultural land are now resulting in a shortage of farms to rent, which bears hardly upon young farmers in particular; and how he proposes to remedy the situation.

I have received representations to this effect and am taking them into account with other factors in the discussions that are taking place with the organisations concerned. These discussions are not concluded, and I am not in a position to make a statement on their outcome.

Would my right hon. Friend not agree that the present rather stagnant condition with regard to agricultural lettings indicates clearly the need for reforms giving safeguards for sitting tenants? Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that he will have the good will of everybody in his efforts to find a solution to this very difficult matter?

Yes, I rather agree with what my hon. Friend has said. I am anxious if I can to get agreement on the improvements that we can make in that direction. I think we must remember that reasonable security of tenure is a prerequisite for efficient production, and I think also that the strong demand for farms at present is perhaps one indication that agriculture is in a sound condition.

While agreeing with the latter part of the right hon. Gentleman's answer, may I ask, if county agricultural executive committees are doing their duty under Part II of the 1947 Act, what would be the point or the justice in dispossessing a good farmer, who is known, and replacing him by an unknown farmer?

I should certainly never be in favour of dispossessing a good farmer—very much to the contrary; but this question is not directly concerned with Part II of the Agriculture Act so much as with the question of security of tenure which is dealt with under the Agricultural Holdings Act.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a further statement on the action being taken to carry out the recommendations of the Balfour Committee on the handling of cattle exported to the Continent.

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and I propose to ensure that cows heavily in milk should not be exported for slaughter; that lairages at the ports should be divided and the animals supervised by experienced persons; and that water troughs, hay racks, fodder and detention pens should be provided. We also agree that approved detention premises should be permanent and covered and should normally be within the dock or airport area or adjacent to it. We shall provide that cattle should be fed as well as watered on lengthy internal rail journeys.

As regards the recommendation that vessels should not sail if winds of force 6 or over are forecast, we have decided that it would be unwise to fetter the discretion of the master of the vessel, and we propose to prohibit the carriage of cattle if the master has reason to expect adverse weather.

The suggestions that cattle found unfit for shipment should be sent to the nearest slaughterhouse and that a minimum size might be prescribed for vessels engaged in the trade raise difficulties that require further study. We have come to the conclusion that it would not be in the interests of the animals to relax the rule requiring cattle to be tied while on board ship.

Discussions with the foreign Governments concerned with a view to making satisfactory arrangements for the treatment of British cattle are continuing, and I hope to make a statement about this immediately after the Whitsun Recess.

As there is still some misunderstanding and anxiety in the public mind about this whole matter of the export of cattle to the Continent, will my right hon. Friend make clear that he accepts fully the findings of the Balfour Committee and that he is doing his utmost to press ahead with effective measures to carry out the Committee's recommendations?

Yes, I will gladly do that. I should like to confirm that we are in entire sympathy with the objects of the recommendations of the Committee under the chairmanship of Lord Balfour of Burleigh. We are seeking most actively for ways of carrying out those recommendations. There is only one item of importance on which there is any difficulty— that is the method of ensuring that cattle shall receive satisfactory treatment on the other side of the water, and that we are most actively following up.

How does the right hon. Gentleman reconcile all that he has just said with the fact that he has rejected the principal recommendation of the Balfour Committee, which is to limit the export of cattle to small countries'? Does he realise that people in transit centres at Reading and elsewhere, who have seen with their own eyes evidence of hardship and suffering, have been appalled by the additional evidence of hardship and suffering brought forward by the Committee and cannot understand why the Government either reject the Committee's recommendations in some cases or are very half-hearted about doing anything about the rest?

I think that if the hon. Gentleman reads what I said this afternoon he will conclude that we are far from half-hearted about these recommendations. We have not rejected the object of that recommendation; it is only the method about which we have doubt. That is the method suggested for limiting the journeys to small countries. We are in sympathy with the object of preventing long journeys on the Continent under unsatisfactory conditions.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will present annually to Parliament a report of his Department, similar to that presented annually by the Secretary of State for Scotland, entitled Agriculture in Scotland.

I am obliged to the hon. Member for his suggestion. I shall give it careful consideration and will write to him as soon as I can.

I am obliged.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what steps he is taking in view of the increase of £2,200,000 in the cost of animal feedingstuffs imported from dollar sources for the first four months of this year.

The Government are encouraging the replacement of imported feedingstuffs by home production of feed grains and the more efficient production and utilisation of grass; and, so far as imports are required, are enabling them to be obtained from the cheapest source.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is a serious drain on our dollar resources and is a retreat from the endeavours that we have been carrying out to be less reliant on imports? Will the right hon. Gentleman discuss this matter with the trade to see whether we can be more effective in limiting imports of feedingstuffs from dollar sources?

We are always in close touch with the trade in these matters. The level of imports during the first four months of this year was due very largely to the temporarily higher freight rates and also to forward buying last autumn, but I think the proof that our policies are working is that the total volume of our home-grown feeding grains has risen steadily over the past three years.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what is the estimated annual loss caused by poultry diseases.

I regret that sufficient information is not available for a satisfactory estimate to be given.

Is the Minister aware that the estimate given by some authorities is as high as £20 million a year? In view of this, does he not think it is necessary to devote much more money and effort to research in this direction?

I am aware of the estimate to which the hon. Gentleman has referred. As regards expenditure on research, it is not only a question of money but a question of there being a sufficient supply of qualified people willing to devote themselves to that research. I can assure him that we have not shown ourselves niggardly, and do not intend to, as to the amount of money devoted to agricultural research.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the average weekly consumption of fresh eggs per head of population; and what increase would have been required to absorb the surplus of eggs which have been exported this year.

The weekly consumption of shell eggs is estimated at just over four per head of the population. An increase in consumption of little more than 1 per cent. would have been sufficient to absorb the quantities of eggs exported in the first four months of 1957.

In view of the fact that consumption in America is considerably higher than it is in this country, and that consumption seems to increase very slowly in response to lowered prices, would my right hon. Friend impress upon the new Egg Marketing Board the importance of stimulating sales of fresh eggs not only for immediate consumption but also for preserving at a time when they are cheap against the months when they are dear?

I assure my hon. Friend that the British Egg Marketing Board is very alive to the necessity of stimulating the consumption of eggs at reasonable prices, and I am convinced it will devote its attention to that. It would have needed the consumption of only one more egg per head of the population during the first four months for there to have been no surplus. I urge hon. Gentlemen to see what they can do.

Will the Minister consider what steps his Department can take in conjunction with the Ministry of Education to increase the consumption of eggs by our schools population through the school meals service?

Yes. I know that my noble Friend the Minister of Education has called the attention of local authorities, through his circulars, to the low prices of eggs that were available a month or two ago and the reasonable prices at which they are available today.

If the Minister allowed his thoughts to go along the lines of a General Election, might we not get rid of a good many eggs?

I shall be thinking about that in two or three years' time.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he is aware that the recent reduction in the price of bread has not been passed on to consumers in Scotland; and, in view of this, if he will reintroduce price control.

Complete uniformity is not to be expected under a freely competitive system. Scottish bakers, I understand, mainly use a flour of stronger grist than in England. The plant bakery prices are at present, I believe, about the same in both countries. I can see no justification, therefore, for the reintroduction of price control.

Leaving aside price control, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the increases went on simultaneously but the decrease applied to England only? Would he make further inquiries as to why Scotland, which had the increase with England, cannot have the decrease also with England?

It is very difficult to compare the prices because, in the case of small bakers, they vary considerably from place to place and from moment to moment. As regards the plant bakeries, I understand that the prices in Scotland did not go up quite as high as they did in England but that now the price in both countries is just about the same.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (1) why Wales was permitted no representative to sit with the four Ulster representatives from Northern Ireland and the two Scottish members on the Egg Marketing Board; and if he will now take steps to include members from Wales;

(2) if he will now appoint a Welsh member or members to the Wool Marketing Board, so that the Board may be representative of all parts of the United Kingdom.

The constitution of these marketing boards is laid down in the respective schemes, which were approved by Parliament. In each case there is one member elected by Welsh producers as provided for in the schemes. It would be for the Boards themselves to promote draft amendments to their schemes if they considered any change was desirable as regards the representation of Welsh producers.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the fact that Wales is so poorly represented on these boards has been commented on in many different quarters in the Principality?

I think we can leave it to the Welshmen to look after their interests and see that the initiative is taken if they feel themselves hard pressed in that direction.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how many of those who participate in the Price Reviews are from Scotland, Ulster and Wales, respectively; and if he will take steps to give reasonable representation to Wales.

The size and composition of the farmers' team at Price Review discussions is left entirely to the discretion of the three Farmers' Unions concerned. At the 1957 Annual Review, the National Farmers' Union of Scotland nominated six representatives; the Ulster Farmers' Union nominated seven representatives; the National Farmers' Union of England and Wales nominated ten representatives, including a member of the Union's Welsh Committee.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the cost of the Government contribution under the 1956 Fertilisers Scheme; and how much it is expected to be under the 1957 Scheme.

Payments under the 1956 Schemes are still being made, but the total expenditure is likely to be about £22 million. The cost of the proposals in the draft 1957 Scheme now before the House is expected to be about £28 million.

Was the increased cost due to the rise in price of sulphuric acid or to additional fertiliser use, or both?

The difference between the two figures I have just quoted is due partly to the increase in the subsidy given at the last Annual Price Review and partly to a higher rate of consumption.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he has studied the Report of the Advisory Group on Veterinary Public Health to the World Health Organisation; and to what extent he proposes to adopt their recommendations.

This Report, which covers a wide field, is being considered, and I cannot yet say how far it will prove possible to adopt its recommendations.

Will the Minister say when he expects to have concluded his consideration of the matter?

Some of the questions involved are quite complicated, but I will make a note to write to the hon. Gentleman and let him know when our thoughts have crystallised.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will arrange that the Forestry Commission's Annual Reports shall in future include a set of accounts prepared in commercial form in order that the economic return on the investment in growing timber, apart from the cost of research and the advisory services, can be assessed.

A commercial account of the operations of the Commission, in a form suitable for a forestry enterprise, is published annually in the Trading Accounts and Balance Sheets of Government Departments. As, however, at the present stage of development the bulk of the investment is in the form of young plantations, the ultimate economic return can only be estimated, as my hon. Friend, I know, realises.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the trading account to which he referred does not really meet my Question, and is he further aware that, although the bulk of the plantations are still young, many of the Forestry Commission's large areas are claimed to show a profit on annual working? Ought he really not to look into this again, because it is surely time that a better form of business accounts was published annually?

I should like to look into it with my hon. Friend's assistance, and I will get in touch with him.

asked the Minister of Labour what action has been taken to review the possibility of extending the practice of Government Departments of costing their contracts so as to be able to offer sheltered workshops a large number of contracts on this basis in accordance with the suggestion of the Piercy Committee.

This suggestion is being considered by my Department and the others concerned.

While the Parliamentary Secretary is considering that, would he consider something else also; that is, extending the idea of sponsorship to Government Departments and national public corporations?

I will certainly do that.

Are many Government contracts issued without being properly costed?

That is another matter which is not for me to answer.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is now able to indicate his proposals for the setting up of an authoritative and impartial body to consider the wide implications of the movement of wages, costs and prices referred to in Command Paper No. 159.

No, Sir. I am not yet able to make a statement about the proposals in the Command Paper. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and I are now having exploratory discussions on a wider basis with representatives of industry and a statement will be made in due course.

When the Prime Minister returned to the scene of his defeat by the present hon. Member for Stockton-on-Tees (Mr. Chetwynd) and made his statement about consultations, is it the case that he made that speech without consultation with the right hon. Gentleman and without knowledge of the exact proposals that the Government proposed to put before the T.U.C. and industry?

Not in the least. These discussions are going on. I have three of them this afternoon, and I am meeting representatives of the T.U.C. and of the nationalised industries within the next hour. The proposals are. however, at a very tentative stage, and it is right that in a proposal as important as this we should not make a statement until all those concerned have been fully consulted.

asked the Minister of Labour what progress he has made towards setting up national negotiating machinery in the banking industry in view of the fact that the National Union of Bank Employees has over 49,000 members and is denied the right of collective bargaining by the greater proportion of British banks.

This problem has been the subject of discussion between officers of my Department and the various interested parties on a number of occasions.

A part from the National Union, there are a number of staff associations representing employees in these banks. Most of these associations are affiliated to the Central Council of Bank Staff Associations.

When representatives of the Central Council and of the union finally made a joint request in 1956 to my Department for assistance in securing a meeting with the Committee of London Clearing Bankers to discuss the proposal for national machinery, the Committee pointed out that two staff associations had decided against the policy of joint conciliation machinery while a third staff association was not a member of the Central Council. The directors of these banks declined, therefore, to take part in any discussions on joint conciliation machinery.

My officers have recently had further talks with representatives of the union and the Central Council, from which it is clear that there has been no change in the circumstances which led the employers last year to refuse to enter into discussions with the union and the council. The talks have also revealed a fundamental difference as between the Central Council and the union in their conception of the purpose of national machinery.

Until a greater degree of unanimity has been developed amongst the staff organisations including the National Union of Bank Employees, there is little hope of the establishment of satisfactory national negotiating machinery.

Do I understand, then, that the right hon. Gentleman is not prepared to take further action to try to secure from the London Clearing Bankers recognition of this organisation, which now includes half of the total number of employers in banks? Will he not consider inviting the bankers, the representatives of the staff associations' Central Council and the National Union of Bank Employees to a meeting under the chairmanship either of himself or of one of his officers to discuss this whole question?

No; I do not think that that puts the matter fairly. After discussions with a number of hon. Members, including the right hon. Gentleman, 1 set on foot the inquiries to which I have referred. They have come to nothing, largely because there is no agreement on the staff side, and, equally, there is no agreement on negotiating machinery between the employers and the various associations. In this country we do not compel, and the Minister of Labour cannot compel, any employer to recognise any particular body or association. Until the staff side itself comes more closely together, I do not see any move from the present position.

While, as the right hon. Gentleman says, it is true that we have never had legislation to compel employers to recognise trade unions, is it not because employers throughout the years have generally been prepared voluntarily to recognise organisations of workers when their size is such as to justify recognition? Surely, here is a situation in which bankers are refusing completely to recognise a trade union. If every employer took the same view as the bankers, would we not be discussing legislation to compel recognition?

The point is not that no association has been recognised but that an association has been recognised which does not happen to be convenient to the right hon. Gentleman. [Interruption.] That is a very different proposition.

In view of the limited time allotted to Questions, may I suggest that this is a matter which should be debated and not dealt with by question and answer?

Will the Minister bear in mind our experience of the last 20–25 years that when employers insist on recognising only a company union, which very often they have established and sustained, and refuse to recognise another union which the men have joined voluntarily, that is the way to industrial trouble, as we know in our own various industries? Will not the Minister, therefore, impress upon the bank employers that it is expected of them that they will recognise this union which men have joined voluntarily?

I can think of a much quicker way to industrial trouble, and that would be for the Minister of Labour to lay down which unions or associations should be recognised.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consult his predecessor, Viscount Monkton of Brenchley, who is now about to become Chairman of the Midland Bank, so that he might take the initiative in this matter by causing the Midland Bank to recognise the union? Would that not be an excellent beginning to the solution of this problem?

Speaking from memory, I think that the Midland Bank is one of the banks referred to in my Answer as not recognising the joint machinery, as a result of which the present position has come about.

Will my right hon. Friend not agree that the fundamental point at issue is not whether this is a good or bad union, or even whether staff associations in themselves are good or bad, but simply the fundamental right of a large group of workers to be represented as they want to be represented and not as their employers want them to be?

I am not very far apart from that approach. It does not, however, touch the fundamental problem that I, as Minister of Labour, will not tell employers with whom they must negotiate.

We are not asking the right hon. Gentleman to tell the bankers anything. We are asking him to go to the bankers and consider consultations with the trade union and staff association so that an agreement can be reached. Why will the right hon. Gentleman not use his influence to speak to the banks?

rose—

Order. We shall never get on with Questions at this rate.

asked the Minister of Labour what arrangements he has made to absorb into suitable employment those employees who are threatened with redundancy as the result of the closing down of a number of Royal Ordnance factories.

Employment considerations are being taken into account in the review of the Royal Ordnance factories that is taking place and I am now in close consultation with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Supply. All the facilities of the employment exchange service will be used to help redundant workers to obtain other employment, but I cannot say anything about the prospects until it is known how many workers will be affected, which localities will be concerned and over what period discharges will occur.

Is the Minister aware that there is now great concern among the employees in the Royal Ordnance factories at the very uncertainty to which he has referred? Will he try to ensure that, instead of merely asking people to go to the employment exchanges when they become redundant, really constructive efforts are made to get appropriate work into the vicinity in which these men will shortly be unemployed so that they will not need to travel?

If particular difficulties of that sort arise, we try, through a pooling system, to notify suitable vacancies in other areas.

asked the Minister of Labour if he has now completed his reconsideration of his refusal to allow the Salford engineering research technician, details of whose case have been sent to him, to take his final bachelor of science examination by studying after working hours before entering National Service.

I wrote to the hon. Member about this case on 21st May, and I have nothing to add to what I said in my letter.

But is the Minister aware that working alongside this man are younger men who, having taken their degrees the easier way by full-time university study, have now been granted complete exemption from call-up? Why should the working-class student making exceptional efforts be granted less favourable treatment?

No, Sir. I do not think that is the position. I have written to the hon. Gentleman, and I should be very glad if he would care to publish the letter, because I think it is the fair approach to the matter. This man, after his apprenticeship, has, most exceptionally, had further deferment granted until August, 1958, to complete a two-year course for the intermediate B.Sc. I am quite satisfied that, as long as National Service lasts, one must be fair not only to the man but to all his contemporaries as well, and that, I am sure, is the principle on which this case must be judged.

But is it not the case that we have here a young man who went to an ordinary elementary school and then became an apprentice and, because of his ability, decided to enter for B.Sc.? Had he been in a family where money was available, he would probably have gone to the university instead of leaving school at fifteen. The boy is now within reasonable reach of becoming a B.Sc. Is it not reasonable that, as the country needs scientists, the right hon. Gentleman should look into this case and realise that it is only because of the circumstances of this boy that he is not now a B.Sc. and free from military service.

I have looked most closely at that. The circumstances in which additional deferment has been granted to this lad are already most exceptional. It is not possible for him to complete a final study for the B.Sc. before he reaches the age at which he would pass out of National Service. I do not think any Minister has made more relaxations than I have in these matters during the last year, but it is essential that while National Service lasts all people concerned are treated on the same basis.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many persons committed to Borstal are in prison awaiting admission to a Borstal Allocation Centre; and how many of these have been in prison for more than one month.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many youths sentenced to corrective or Borstal training are detained in Her Majesty's prisons; how many have been in the prisons for periods of four weeks or more, and, in view of the fact that their detention in prisons is contrary to the courts sentences, when it will be possible to have the youths removed to training as sentenced.

On 31st May there were in prison 164 boys sentenced to Borstal training available for transfer to reception centres, of whom 54 had been in prison for four weeks or more. The abnormal delay is due to the sharp increase in recent months of committals to Borstal, which has caused a shortage of accommodation in the training institutions.

Whilst thanking my right hon. Friend for that reply and recognising the pressure on accommodation and the efforts to segregate these boys made by the prison authorities, especially in the prison which I visited, may I ask whether my right hon. Friend could assure the House that every effort will be made to keep these young Borstal boys isolated so far as practicable from the adult prisoners? Will he also undertake to consider arranging standby facilities for any similar time of pressure?

The Prison Commissioners have in mind the latter point raised by my hon. Friend.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the parents of these boys are very distressed indeed about the fact that they are in ordinary prisons when they have not been sentenced to imprisonment? Is he aware that this action in retaining these boys in prisons makes the governor of the prison liable to action for wrongful detention of the boys concerned? When will the right hon. Gentleman be able to make arrangements to ensure that the sentences of the court are properly carried out?

I have explained that this is because there has been an increase in committals. We have powers under Section 46 of the Prisons Act and, therefore, I do not think that anything illegal is being done. I regret this detention of boys, if they are being detained, but I assure the hon. Lady that we shall get this right as soon as we can.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will consult the Secretary of State for Scotland and introduce legislation aimed at ensuring that minors from outside Scotland, who, by the law of their domicile, cannot marry without parental consent, shall not be able to enter into a valid marriage in Scotland.

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland explained on 21st May, in reply to Questions by the hon. Members for Coatbridge and Airdrie (Mrs. Mann) and Dundee, East (Mr. G. M. Thomson) that it would be inappropriate for a statement to be made on behalf of the Government on this subject because an appeal in a particular case is pending. I shall keep in touch with my right hon. Friend about the matter.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the whole circumstances of these marriages really do no credit to either England or Scotland and that sooner or later there really must be some change in the law, because on balance they bring far more misery than happiness?

I am aware of the difficulty, but as there is litigation I cannot make any further statement today.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many people were killed and how many injured by electrocution through accidents in the home in 1955 and 1956, respectively; and what steps are being taken to avoid such accidents.

The numbers of fatal electrical accidents in the home in 1955 and 1956 were 39 and 55, respectively. No information is available regarding non-fatal accidents. Safety requirements are incorporated in British Standards Specifications covering a considerable range of electrical appliances for use in the home, and the Institute of Electrical Engineers has for many years issued regulations for the electrical equipment of buildings.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not realise that the numbers he has given me are unnecessarily high? Is he aware that there is an increasing use of electricity for all sorts of work in connection with the home, and would it not be worth while having an inquiry into the question whether more cannot be done to prevent these accidents? Is he aware that minor accidents, not resulting in death, are relatively common in connection with electrical equipment?

Yes, Sir, I am aware of that. I will watch the situation, but I think that, in view of the steadily increasing number of electrical appliances, the accidents are not increasing in ratio to the expansion. Nevertheless, I am taking every care to watch this.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what was the average length of detention in Borstal of any convenient comparable groups released in 1955 and 1956, respectively.

In 1955 the average length of detention for the maturer type of inmate in closed institutions was 22·1 months, and, in open institutions, 17·4 months, as compared with 21 months and 16·9 months respectively, in 1956. For the younger type of inmate the corresponding figures for 1955 are 25 months and 18·2 months, as compared with 22·5 months and 17·6 months in 1956.

Will my right hon. Friend ask the Commissioners to do all they can to maintain this most welcome trend, both because of the pressure of accommodation and because of the Mannheim findings last year in the study of Borstal that short sentences are quite as effective in reducing recidivism as longer sentences?

A Working Party is studying the Mannheim Report. When I have received the Working Party's report I will communicate with my hon. Friend. I welcome his acknowledgement that there has been an improvement in the trend.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department why the prison authorities accepted the aid of the foxhound pack of the Mid-Devon Hunt last Thursday to search for a prisoner escaped from Dartmoor.

The prison authorities are not responsible for the search for escaped prisoners and were not consulted in the matter.

While welcoming the statement made by the Home Secretary that the prison authorities were neither consulted nor in fact approved the use of foxhounds in this case, may I ask him to say that he does not view with favour the use of foxhounds in such cases, no shortage of police dogs having been reported?

I am not ready to make any observations on this matter. I must leave this case to the discretion of the local constabulary, and in particular to the chief constable involved.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a statement upon the recent escape from Dartmoor Prison and the subsequent discovery of firearms in the prison; and what steps he is taking to deal with the situation.

The prisoner Fowler escaped in thick fog from an outside party on 14th May. I see no reason to connect his escape with the subsequent discovery of firearms. As to this, on 13th May a pistol and ammunition were found by a woman cleaner in the lavatory of a train on which prisoners were being conveyed by an escort from Dartmoor to London. On 19th May, the authorities discovered another pistol and ammunition buried in the quarry outside the prison. The prison and police authorities are aware of the possibility that further weapons may have been concealed, and necessary precautions have been taken.

In view of the public anxiety about these escapes, and the unsatisfactory arrangements in the opinion of prison officers, will the Home Secretary undertake an inquiry into whether the present system is satisfactory, so as to ensure that these events cannot occur again?

I understand the anxiety of the hon. Member and of the House about these revelations, but I do not think that an inquiry is necessary, because the Prison Commissioners have already taken most drastic action to deal with the situation. I am not prepared to give publicly particulars of that action, because it would not be in the general interest that I should do so, but I assure the hon. Member that the matter is well in hand and was brought fully to my attention.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether in view of the traffic delays caused on Monday, 3rd June, by the rehearsal for Trooping the Colour, he will take action to avoid similar inconvenience to the travelling public in future.

Bell asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware of the widespread dislocation of motor traffic in London caused by the closing of St. James' Park on Monday morning last; and what steps he will take to ensure that similar conditions do not recur.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if his attention has been drawn to the traffic hold up which occurred in the West End of London on 3rd June as a result of the rehearsal for Trooping the Colour; and what instructions he is giving to the Commissioner of Police for the Metropolis to prevent a repetition of this state of affairs on the occasion of the next rehearsal on 7th June.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware of the traffic chaos which occurred on the morning of Monday, 3rd June, following the closing of the Mall; and if he will cancel the closing planned for Friday, 7th June, and arrange a suitable alternative hour when traffic is light.

I am informed by the Commissioner of Police that on the occasion of the first rehearsal of Trooping the Colour on 3rd June there was less congestion of traffic and less delay than in former years, probably because Birdcage Walk was kept open to traffic until noon instead of being closed at 9.30 a.m. as in the past. I am well aware, however, of the serious dislocation of traffic which arises from the need to close certain streets during rehearsals. While I am advised that it is not possible to cancel or alter the timing of the second rehearsal fixed for tomorrow, I propose to consult my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War about the arrangements to be made in future years with a view to minimising the inconvenience to the public.

Having urged both the present and previous Home Secretaries to do something about this for some years past, may I now ask the right hon. Gentleman to realise that, whilst the public do not object to perhaps a certain amount of inconvenience in connection with the Trooping of the Colour ceremony itself, what they do object to is a three-fold dose of inconvenience caused by these rehearsals being held at inconvenient times of the day?

Yes, Sir, I realise this. It was even my wish to change the rehearsal for tomorrow, but unfortunately thousands of people have bought tickets for tomorrow's rehearsal so I cannot act tomorrow. However, in consultation with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War, I will try to see that less inconvenience is caused in the future.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that it is widely felt that it would be much more convenient to hold these rehearsals on a Saturday afternoon, which would avoid interference with normal business travel and would enable more people to see the rehearsals? May I further ask whether full publicity can be given as to which streets are to be closed, and when, both for tomorrow and on the actual day?

Yes, Sir, I will attempt to meet the desires of my hon. Friend. I had in mind already the possibility of Saturday on future occasions.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that on Thursday, 30th May, 1957, the police on duty outside the Hornsey Town Hall, on the occasion of the by-election count, took no action to prevent a sports car, particulars of which have been sent to him, from speeding through a crowd of some 300–400 on-lookers; that this created a serious disturbance and injury to at least one person; why the police constable who spoke to the driver and took particulars did not caution or warn him; and whether he will charge this driver for driving without due care and attention and as a danger to the public.

The enforcement of the law is for the Commissioner of Police and I am satisfied that it would not be proper for me to intervene or to make observations on the details of this case on which I have received a report from the Commissioner.

Yes, but is the Home Secretary aware that whilst appreciating the natural disappointment of the Tory Party in almost losing that by-election, it should be no excuse for one of the Tories coming up in a sports car, trying to force his way through a crowd, and causing damage to one of the onlookers? Will he not, therefore, at least suggest to the Commissioner that he should make an investigation with a view to taking action against this individual?

My account of the accident is not quite so lurid or recumbent as that of the lion. Gentleman.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what changes or extensions have been made during the last twelve months in the arrangements for checking teachers and students in universities for security purposes.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what inquiries are made with his authority to ascertain the political views and activities of university students, other than students applying for employment upon secret work.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what approaches have been made in the last six months, by persons under his authority, to the staffs of universities asking them to report on political activities within the universities.

As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister stated in reply to a Question by the hon. Member for Cleveland (Mr. Palmer) on 28th May, special inquiries are made, at the universities where appropriate, about the reliability of Government staff to be employed on exceptionally secret work. Apart from these special inquiries, investigations have also to be undertaken in the universities as elsewhere from time to time to protect the security of the State. It would not be in the public interest to disclose the nature of the arrangements made to carry out these investigations, but I can say that no significant changes or extensions have been made in the last twelve months.

May I ask the Home Secretary this question? Whilst 'the need for checking formally, through tutors, students applying for secret jobs is generally accepted, the belief that there may be on the staff unidentified persons who are passing on information to M.I.5 about their colleagues, or about students, is bound to poison the atmosphere of a university, and in view of that fact, will the right hon. Gentleman look into the evidence which is now available from that angle, as well as the security angle, to see whether he cannot allay the real anxieties which now exist in many university circles?

I think that there is natural anxiety that there should be a system which works but does not prevent the liberty of the students from being fully enjoyed. I should like to assure the right hon. Gentleman and the House that there is no need to exaggerate the position. I have simply informed the House that we are following the practice which was approved by the Conference of Privy Councillors, which, the House will remember, concluded that there was nothing organically wrong or unsound about the Government's security arrangements. So far as I can see, there have been no alterations of a marked nature since that date. Being myself particularly closely associated with the universities, I think I can assure the House that there is no abuse in this matter.

I am sure the right hon. Gentleman does not want to misrepresent the Report of the Conference of Privy Councillors. I am sure he is aware that it did not go into this aspect of the problem at all and did not consider the detailed arrangements for security in universities.

I am aware that the right hon. Gentleman himself gave useful service in this connection, but the Conference approved the general outline of our arrangements, and, as I said in my answer, the arrangements have to be applied wherever they are necessary, whether it be in the universities or elsewhere. The undertaking which I can now give is that this matter will be very closely watched by myself as the guardian of private liberty.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give the further assurance that he accepts that universities are in a rather special position, fortunately—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"]—because the political activities of students should be taken very much less seriously than the political activities of more adult people, and also because it is particularly important that students—

And shop stewards.

—should not be spied on by people either on the staff or in the student body? Will the right hon. Gentleman accept it that universities are a very special type of community?

I think we are all aware that universities have a certain licence of liberty and speech, and that without that they would not be healthy. At the same time, there are general considerations affecting the security of the State, which were revealed, subject to what the right hon. Member for Vauxhall (Mr. G. R. Strauss) says, in the Report of the Conference of Privy Councillors, and these general considerations must apply all round in the State wherever it may be.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department why two senior police officers were recently transferred at short notice from the Peckham and Camberwell sub-division, in view of the fact that such precipitate transfer inflicts hardship on the officers concerned, and has acted as a reflection on their competence and integrity.

These officers were transferred because the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis decided that it was necessary in the interests of efficiency. I understand that they have been informed that the transfer in no way reflects on their integrity and I have no reason to think that there is any hardship other than the normal inconvenience which is caused by transfers.

Will the right hon. Gentleman agree that there are a number of unsatisfactory features to this case, and will he undertake that a full inquiry will be made into them?

I regret that I cannot agree to that. I must leave matters of this sort to the discretion of the Commissioner of Police.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what number of police in the Metropolitan force were on duty at Wembley Stadium on the occasion of the Cup Final on 4th May; and what numbers were on duty elsewhere because of this event.

The number of police on duty at Wembley Stadium on the occasion of the Cup Final on 4th May was 370, of whom 97 were employed inside the Stadium and the remainder outside. A further 140 officers were employed on duties arising directly or indirectly from this match.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that when a certain fatality was discovered in Cranford Park, Middlesex, a request was made for police to help urgently in a search of a very large area and that the whole proceeding was handicapped by the fact that police officers were not available?

If the hon. Member will give me particulars of that matter. I will certainly look into them.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many policemen are normally on duty in and around the Palace of Westminster.

When Parliament is in session there are normally up to 69 police officers on duty at any one time in and around the Palace of Westminster. When Parliament is not in session the number does not exceed 20.

I am very grateful for that figure, but since it reveals that the policing here is on a fairly lavish scale, may I ask my right hon. Friend to consider consulting those concerned to see whether all these police officers are as usefully employed as they could be, having regard to the fact that in the Metropolitan area the police services are still below establishment? Would my right hon. Friend recognise that, while we know of a number of police officers here whose work is invaluable, it might be possible that others are not so fully employed?

These figures apply to officers on beats and road crossings near the Palace of Westminster and apply to Mondays to Fridays only. I think that in the circumstances the police look after us very well.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department in what circumstances he authorised the police to supply the Bar Council, in connection with a disciplinary matter affecting a barrister, with transcripts of intercepted telephone conversations in the London area.

The material in question was obtained under the authority of a warrant of the Secretary of State and related to the case of a notorious and self-confessed criminal. It was disclosed to the Bar Council in response to a request from the Council for assistance in inquiries which they were making into complaints about the professional conduct of a particular barrister.

Is it not a monstrous state of affairs that a telephone conversation between a barrister and his instructing solicitor should be intercepted, transcribed and transmitted to the Bar Council and to the benchers of Lincoln's Inn by someone acting under the authority of the Home Secretary? Are we now living in a police State?

The answer to the last part of the question is that the hon. Gentleman can be assured that the Secretary of State of the day only acts in this way when he realises that the public interest necessitates such action. I will give an undertaking to the House that this action will never be used except in the interests of public order. I would like to add that it is of the highest importance that persons concerned in the administration of justice should not be associated with criminals in their criminal activities. Because of these considerations, it was thought right to assist the Bar Council in their investigations of allegations of this nature.

Would the Home Secretary not agree that it is, to say the least, extremely unusual for the product of police inquiries, whether by this method or any other, to be made available to persons other than prosecuting authorities? Is not this a principle of general application, and can the right hon. Gentleman be much more precise than he has been as to the circumstances in which he is apparently prepared personally to authorise the transmission and use of police information to unofficial bodies?

No, Sir, I am not prepared to go into detail in this matter, which derives from the Prerogative, and which is a power that I should exercise at my discretion.

Oh.

Is the Home Secretary referring to the right to intercept telephone calls or the right to transmit official information to outside bodies? The second point has nothing to do with the Prerogative so far as I am aware.

The right hon. Gentleman is correct. I was referring to his first point. On the second point, the circumstances of this case made this action desirable.

Why?

Has it not been a custom of our country connected with liberty that communications, even between criminals and their lawyers, should be specially privileged and not put in evidence, and is it not rather dangerous to invade that principle in this way? Is it not very unusual and new?

I think it would be wrong if anyone under-estimated the importance of this question or of the answers I have given, but I cannot carry the matter any further today because I consider that the circumstances of this case justify the action that was taken.

I am sure the Home Secretary will appreciate that this is a matter which is causing a great deal of concern. Can he say whether there is any precedent for information of this kind being divulged to an unofficial body such as the Bar Council? Will he, if he cannot make a statement today, make a further statement tomorrow before we adjourn for the Whitsun Recess?

Naturally I will consider the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion, but I do not think I should have anything to add to what I have said today.

The right hon. Gentleman did not answer my first point about whether there was any precedent for action of this kind being taken.

I would not be able to say whether there was an actual precedent in relation to the Bar Council, but I am aware of precedents for action of this kind in dealing with criminal cases. I would have to investigate whether there was an actual precedent of this kind.

May I press the right hon. Gentleman, since this is a matter of great importance? The House will understand if he asks for a little more time before making a fuller statement on the whole situation, but in view of the Whitsun Recess I ask him whether he cannot give us an undertaking to make a statement tomorrow before we adjourn?

I have already said, as I should rightly do, that I will consider the right hon. Gentleman's request, but I could not give any undertaking before I had considered the matter further.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the earliest possible Motion for the Adjournment of the House.