asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance the numbers of 1914–18 war pensioners 40 per cent. disabled and aged 58 to 64 years who died during the past two years.

It is estimated that during the two years ended 31st March, 1957, there were about 3,900 deaths among 1914 war pensioners whose disablement was assessed at 40 per cent. or more and who were aged 58 to 64 years.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will, in response to the recent requests he has received from representative organisations, give further consideration to the possibility of lowering the age for eligibility for the age allowance in order to give aid in time for all the ageing and severely disabled survivors of the 1914–18 war.

No, Sir. I think that in its present form this allowance, which is not of course restricted to participants in the 1914–18 war, fulfils the purpose of concentrating additional help where on grounds of age it is most needed, and I doubt whether its extension to lower age groups, as suggested, should be given priority over other needs in the war pensions field.

Will the Minister agree that the figures he gave in answer to Question No. 1 show that there is a rather high incidence of death between the ages of 58 and 64?

Naturally any deaths in this category are to be regretted, but the hon. Gentleman will appreciate that any allowance, the essence of which is that it is paid in respect of age, must necessarily be missed by some people who, whatever line of demarcation one selects, die before reaching that age. I am afraid that is inherent in this type of allowance.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what steps he is taking to collect and co-ordinate information about the change in costs of the special needs and habits of old people with a view to drawing up a weighted cost-of-living index as a guide to the real value of old-age pensions.

My right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour and National Service has collected information about the spending habits of old people in the course of an inquiry into household expenditure. I understand that he will shortly publish the results, but that he does not propose to draw up a special cost-of-living index relating to old people.

Will the Minister appreciate that this was a special recommendation of the Phillips Committee, and that one need not necessarily limit oneself to investigations carried out by the Minister of Labour—as, indeed, it may be fair to comment that certain increases announced last week to the Minister and myself were based on a different kind of Select Committee's investigation of special need? Will he do his best, as Minister, to make it clear to the old folks that he accepts the need for a special cost-of-living index for old people, and will he do his best to speed up the publication of the information?

Before forming as firm a view as that, the hon. Gentleman might well await the publication of the information which my right hon. Friend will release before very long. As regards the question of having two separate indices, it must be borne in mind that both the Cost-of-Living Advisory Committee and right hon. Gentlemen opposite in 1951 rejected the idea of two indices at the same time.

Since then we have had the Phillips Committee, which was set up by the previous Conservative Government, and, after very careful consideration, it came to the conclusion that there ought to be a special index. If the Minister is now to reject that recommendation, may we take it that he will set out fully the reasons why he rejects the unanimous Report which the Phillips Committee presented to the Government?

That is a question for my right hon. Friend. I think the right hon. Gentleman will appreciate that my right hon. Friend always answers questions very fully.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether he will introduce legislation to raise the £2 10s. earnings limit for retirement pensioners who have children at school.

No, Sir. The earnings limit is a necessary means of maintaining the principle that pensions during the first five years after age of eligibility are conditional upon retirement, and the existence of dependent children, in respect of whom additions are made to the pension, does not affect this. The hon. Lady will be aware that the general earnings limit was raised last summer not only to the 50s. per week referred to in the Question but with a reduction of only 6d. in the shilling in respect of further earnings of £1 a week above this figure.

Will not the Minister look at the matter again? Surely there are very few retirement pensioners who have dependent children, and the very small extra sum which they receive makes it impossible for them to manage, and provides a very special reason for their continuing at work?

The hon. Lady will recall from an answer that I gave last week that the increases in the provision for dependent children which have been made in recent years are rather greater in proportion than other increases in the National Insurance system.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will state, at the latest convenient date, the number of old-age pensioners in the country in receipt of retirement pensions who have applied for National Assistance.

I have no later figure than that which I gave to the hon. Member on 6th May, to which I would refer him.

Is the Minister aware that a report appeared in a national newspaper on Sunday to the effect that the Government intend to raise the old-age pension? If the report is correct, I assure the Minister that it will be welcomed by the country and by hon. Members. If he can make a statement before the Summer Recess, it will be very much appreciated.

I am afraid that the result of the hon. Gentleman's newspaper reading does not arise on this Question.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many old-age pensioners were applying for National Assistance in Salford at the latest convenient date.

I am informed by the National Assistance Board that the County Borough of Salford is part of a substantially larger area served by two of the Board's offices, and that in that area on 25th June, 1957, 6,970 weekly National Assistance grants were being paid to persons receiving retirement pensions and 801 to persons receiving non-contributory old age pensions. Some of the grants provided for the requirements of a household with more than one pensioner.

Since so many pensioners are trying to maintain appearances by existing on bread, margarine, tea and potatoes, as the recent Salford survey reports, will not the Minister do the human thing and increase the pension to £3? Does he appreciate that old people cannot wait?

The survey to which the hon. Member refers is interesting but far from comprehensive in its analysis of the situation. On the main issue, I have nothing to add to the statements which I have made from the Dispatch Box on this matter.

As the Salford survey is a very interesting and, I believe, very important document, will the Minister make copies available to hon. Members in the Library?

I will, of course, consider that, but as it is not my survey I shall have to inquire as to its availability and the position of those to whom it really belongs.

Is the Minister aware that even old-age pensioners who draw National Assistance are living at an absolute penury level because of the inadequacy of the National Assistance scales, and, therefore, the basic pension is obviously even more inadequate? Is it not undesirable that hon. Members should go away for their summer holidays before we do something to rectify the discrepancy between our standard of living and that of the old-age pensioners?

The hon. Lady raises a number of issues, but I must remind her that the real value, in terms of purchasing power, of the pension today is better than it was between 1948 and 1955.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will appoint a working party to devise means to stabilise to old-age pensioners the prices of minor necessities and amenities, such as bus fares and the cost of posting a letter, since even a small increase constitutes a disproportionately high burden upon the aged.

I doubt whether the appointment of such a body would be of value, and in any event I have no responsibility for the control of particular prices.

Is there no way of getting the Minister to treat the matter seriously and with some human feeling? Will he try to bear in mind the things which are so important to old people? For instance, the cost of a single-stage bus fare may make a difference in the food which they can buy, whereas ordinary people could very well walk the distance. In such a case, or in the case of the postage for a letter, an increase of a halfpenny is a 20 per cent. increase. It is too much. Will the Minister try to find ways of stabilising the cost of some of these items for old people?

If the hon. Gentleman will study the answer, he will see that the matters to which he has referred do not come within my responsibility and I do not answer for them at the Dispatch Box. He has complained about bus fares. He should address his question on that subject to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation.

In view of the rather unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's replies to this Question and previous Questions, I give notice that I will raise the matter again at the earliest opportunity. If the Minister would like time to make a statement—

The hon. Member has given notice that he will raise the subject later. That concludes this business now.

Would it not be convenient to the Minister, Mr. Speaker, if I suggested to him that if it helped him I could put down an Amendment to the Ministerial Salaries Bill which is to be taken in Committee on Thursday?

That has nothing to do with it.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will state, to the nearest convenient date, the number of old-age pensioners in Scotland and the number of these who are on National Assistance.

In March, 1957, there were approximately 430,000 retirement pensioners in Scotland, of whom just over 70,000 were also receiving weekly National Assistance grants. In addition, there were some 25,000 non-contributory old-age pensioners, of whom 14,000 were receiving supplementary assistance. Some of the grants provided for the requirements of a household with more than one pensioner.

Does the Minister realise that his Answer means to a large section of old people in Scotland that he is now paying such a small sum as pension that in order to keep them living he has to pay a supplementation through another of his Departments so that they can go on drawing their old-age pension? Does he not think that is an absurd situation? Will he now say whether the report that he is to put an end to this by raising pensions all round is correct?

I do not think the intention of Parliament in passing the National Assistance Act that aid should be given in cases of need is absurd. On the contrary, it is a very valuable social service. The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that in Scotland the percentage being supplemented is appreciably below that for England and Wales.

In view of the obviously political character of this Question, can my right hon. Friend give us the figures for 1950–51?

Certainly, if my hon. Friend will be good enough to put down a Question.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Burgh of Milngavie—

Who?

—the Burgh of Milngavie —has issued a statement to old-age pensioners informing them that they can apply to the National Assistance Board for payment of increased rents which have been imposed? Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that those old-age pensioners will be given the extra National Assistance to pay increased rents resulting from a differential rents scheme?

I have answered one or two Questions, as the hon. Member may be aware, on the general attitude of the National Assistance Board towards rent increases. I prefer not to add to that in respect of a particular case of which, in answer to the first part of the question, I was not aware up to now. If the hon. Member so wishes, I will certainly look into that case.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will arrange to receive from the National Assistance Board special reports on the increased cost to the Board arising from rent increases permitted by the Rent Act.

No, Sir. Ample information will in any event in due course be circulated in the National Assistance Board's Annual Report, but it is unlikely that the Board itself will have information of much value until the Act has been in operation for some time.

Here again the Minister does not seem to realise how much his own initiative could help. Surely he should be watching most carefully the effect of this Act? Surely he should be interested in how much public money is being voted, through the medium of National Assistance, to landlords?

This is Question Time. The hon. Member is really making a speech. If he has a question to ask, the House will be interested to listen to it.

The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that I should assist nobody by promising to give information before accurate information is available.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many National Assistance grants were in issue at the Brixton and Kennington area offices of the National Assistance Board at the end of 1951 and 1956, respectively.

I am informed by the National Assistance Board that the combined number of weekly National Assistance grants current in the areas served by the Board's Brixton and Kennington Offices was 8,997 at the end of 1951 and 9,193, at the end of 1956.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many National Assistance grants were in issue in the London region at the end of 1951 and 1956, respectively.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I ask a supplementary question to Question No. 9?

No. We have passed from that Question. We are now on Question No. 10.

I am informed by the National Assistance Board that the number of weekly National Assistance grants current in the Board's Inner London Region was 176,000 at the end of 1951 and 185,000 at the end of 1956.

If, as the Minister keeps on saying, old-age pensioners have never been so well off as they are today, why is it that more and more of them have to apply for National Assistance? In those circumstances, will he give an undertaking that he is taking note of the situation and will do something about it before the House rises for the Summer Recess?

The hon. Gentleman must not put into my mouth words which I have not used, do not mean, and do not intend to use. As his supplementary question is based on the wholly false hypothesis that I used such words, I feel that the latter part of it does not arise.

Can my right hon. Friend say whether the trend of the figures which he has given in response to this Question and the previous Question are equally applicable to the country as a whole? Can he say whether London is paying out more or less by way of National Assistance grants than the average for the whole country?

That involves a number of figures, and I should be grateful if my hon. Friend would table a Question on the subject.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether or not it is a fact that the proportion of old-age pensioners applying for and receiving National Assistance is increasing? If his answer is that the proportion is increasing, how does he reconcile it with his statement that old-age pensioners are better off now than they ever were previously?

The hon. Gentle-knows perfectly well that I used no such expression. I cannot allow the hon. Gentleman to put wholly false words into my mouth. With regard to his supplementary question, however, he will be glad to know that the proportion, on a national basis, of retirement pensioners receiving supplementation from the National Assistance Board is lower than it was in 1952, 1953 and 1954.

Is it not a fact that since the last pensions increase was given the trend has been upwards and that at the end of 1956 it was greater than it was in 1948?

I cannot give the comparable figure for 1948 without notice. The figures have risen and fallen over the years, among other things, as the right hon. Gentleman knows well, for reasons of the movement in the Assistance scales themselves, and they have certainly increased since the Government last raised the Assistance scales.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible opportunity.

asked the Paymaster-General to what extent he considered the cost of stocking coal surplus to requirements in sanctioning the recent increase in the price of coal.

The cost of stocking coal is normally considered by the Board in formulating proposals for price increases, but it is of course very difficult for it to predict exactly the movement of stocks.

Is the Paymaster-General aware that the National Coal Board is transporting coal many miles to stockpile it? Does he not agree that as this coal is being stored for use by industry the cost should be borne by the industries which use it as well as by the National Coal Board?

In the long run, the whole cost will be borne by the consumer. It cannot be borne by anyone else.

asked the Paymaster-General if he will issue a table showing the average rate of wages for coal miners during each of the last five years, together with the rise in the price of coal, the increase in mine mechanisation and the average coal output per man for each of those years.

As the Answer contains a number of figures, I will, with permission, circulate a table in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Has not the price of coal been increased on at least 30 separate occasions since the mines were first nationalised, and is it not now nearly double what it was then? Are not the unfortunate taxpayers pouring some £1,000 million of their money into their mines, and are not the only thanks they get increased absenteeism and increased cost? How can any Government keep down the cost of living when coal, on which the ultimate cost of everything depends, keeps rising in price?

I ask my hon. and gallant Friend to study the figures for which he asked before drawing deductions from them.

Is it not the case that there have been only five increases in the pithead price of coal and not 30 as the hon. and gallant Gentleman suggested? Is it not true that output per man-shift of British miners and output per man-year are higher than for any country in Europe and that British coal at the pithead is cheaper than anywhere in Europe? Is it not a bad thing that an hon. Member should use this House to denigrate our most vital industry where men are working under great difficulties to do a first-class job for the country?

Without notice, I could not quote the exact figures, but much of what the right hon. Gentleman has said is perfectly true. On the other hand, it is very important we should recognise that output per man-year in 1956 was lower than in 1952. The whole House will agree that that is a matter for concern.

asked the Paymaster-General how much of the recent average increase of 6s. 6d. per ton in coal prices for householders accrues to the National Coal Board, and how much to distributors and merchants.

6s. 6d, was the average price increase at the pithead for all coals on 1st July and the whole of this increase accrues to the National Coal Board. On the same date, retail house coal prices were increased by additional small amounts to recompense merchants for increased costs of distribution.

Does my right hon. Friend realise how very greatly upset the general public is by the implications of his statement last Monday to the general effect that he is pursuing a deliberate policy of dear coal? Will he recant today and make it quite clear that he does not propose to put up the price of coal any more during the lifetime of this Parliament, having regard to the gravely inflationary effects of such a policy?

If my hon. Friend would be kind enough to study what I said in reply to his supplementary question last week, he will find that it is precisely the opposite of what he has just said. I said there was no question at all of a deliberate dear coal policy.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that on the Continent of Europe—

We do not live on the Continent.

—members of the Iron and Steel Community—

Why not go and join the Norwegians?

—recognise the advantages to the steel industry of this country of cheap coal? Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that there will be no attempt by the British coal industry to raise coal prices to the general level of prices of coal ruling on the Continental market?

Certainly not.

I do not see any sign of that in the National Coal Board's policy at the present moment.

asked the Paymaster-General, having regard to the recent coal price increases authorised by the Minister of Power having resulted in consequentially increased rail freight, steel, gas, coke and electricity charges, what estimate he has made of the influence of all these consequential increased costs upon future pithead coal prices; and what part of these consequential increased costs to the coal consumer he took into account when the coal price increase of 6s. 6d. per ton, average, was authorised, with effect from 1st July, 1957, by the Minister of Power.

The direct consequential effects of the recent coal price increases are estimated to add about one-quarter of one per cent. to the costs of the National Coal Board's collieries. This is not therefore, a material consideration.

My right hon. Friend is evidently deliberately neglecting the fact—

Question.

—that he fixes the price for the consumer. Will—

Question.

Order. I think a question is coming.

As my right hon. Friend fixes the price to the consumer, will he pay some regard to the fact that, as freights have now been raised by 10 per cent. and the prices of gas, electricity, coke and steel are all going up, the National Coal Board will have to apply shortly for another price increase and the consumer is going to be hit again? Will not my right hon. Friend have some regard for these very gravely inflationary effects?

If my hon. Friend once again will study what I have said, he will find once again that it is the opposite of what he has said.

Apart from all these matters that have been raised, is it not a fact that at a recent international conference on coal production the record of this country on safety in mines, on which figures were produced, is one of which the National Coal Board need not be ashamed?

I think that has been generally recognised, but we are now considering costs and prices, on which the record is much more alarming.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that this increased price of coal to householders in Worcestershire is causing very great dissatisfaction, in view of the fact that the National Coal Board is buying coal from abroad at a very high price and selling it at a loss to industrial users in the Midlands area?

I quite agree that these recent increases are matters of very considerable concern indeed, and nobody for one moment would deny it. On the question of the price of imported coal, there are some other Questions later on the Order Paper.

asked the Paymaster-General whether he will state, when the Minister of Power authorised the increase in coal prices of an average of 6s. 6d. per ton from 1st July, 1957, what aggregate sum of additional revenue in a full year such increase was designed to yield to the National Coal Board; for what purposes; what sum the National Coal Board asked Ministerial authorisation for, both per ton increase in price and aggregate sum; what reduction in the National Coal Board demands was made by the Minister of Power; and, having regard to the inflationary effects of the price increase, whether he will now make a full statement concerning the negotiations.

As the National Coal Board have announced, the recent price increase is estimated to yield additional revenue amounting to £66 million in a full year, and they have explained for what main purposes this money is required. Increases in the price of coal other than to the domestic consumer do not require authorisation by my noble Friend, but they are the subject of consultations between him and the Board. These consultations are confidential and must remain so.

Can I do anything to break up the "kissing ring" between the Minister of Power, my right hon. Friend and Sir James Bowman? Why is it that prices always go up, with never any resistance from my right hon. Friend in keeping these prices stable? Who is going to protect the consumer in this country, other than myself?

I am not an expert on the subject of breaking up "kissing rings", but the fact is that costs have been rising, and it was recognised by both the Industrial and Domestic Coal Consumers' Councils that these prices were inevitable in the face of rising costs.

In view of the grossly unsatisfactory nature of these Ministerial replies, I beg to give notice that I shall take steps to persuade you, Mr. Speaker, to give me an Adjournment debate or otherwise allow me to raise this matter again.

asked the Paymaster-General what has been the percentage increase in the retail price of coal in the London area compared to the percentage increase in the price of fuel oil, excluding tax, in the London area between 1947 and the recent ending of rationing.

On 18th May last, the retail price of Group 4, an average house coal, had increased by about 100 per cent. Fuel oil is not normally sold retail, but at the same date the wholesale price of light fuel oil had increased by 69 per cent.

Does not the Paymaster-General's Answer show that private enterprise is far more capable of keeping prices down than nationalised bodies?

While probably agreeing with my hon. Friend on the general attitude to the question of nationalisation, I do not think one can draw such a deduction from these particular figures.

asked the Paymaster-General how much the price of Grade 2 house coal, both in terms of money and percentage, has risen in London and north-east Essex, including Harwich, respectively, since 1st January, 1947.

In London by about 106s., or 118 per cent., and in Harwich by about 116s., or 144 per cent.

Is the Minister aware that one of the main pointers in regard to the cost of living of pensioners and those living on fixed incomes is their fuel bills? Does not he agree that the nationalised industries should be warned that successive wage rises, unaccompanied by production increases, are making this section of the community despair? As the opportunity occurs, will he see that limitations are put upon price increases in the nationalised industries?

It is true that the cost of fuel falls very heavily upon pensioners and people living on fixed incomes. That is one of the strongest reasons for doing everything possible to increase productivity. I entirely agree with my hon. Friend about that.

asked the Paymaster-General what reports and representations he has received regarding the supply of coal to domestic consumers during the period of reduced summer prices; and how far he is satisfied with the arrangements for its distribution during this time.

I have received some complaints that merchants in London and the South have been unable to meet quickly a proportion of the orders placed during the period of lowest summer prices. The object of the scheme was to attract orders early in the slack season, an object in which it has clearly succeeded, and it could not be expected, nor was it any part of the scheme, that all the orders—which could be for a full year's ration —would be met within the period.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is very wide indignation about this? Could not some arrangement be made whereby when people have ordered coal in the summer they pay the prices then ruling and not the higher prices of later on?

It was announced by the National Coal Board in response to requests from the Domestic Coal Consumers Council that any consumer in the South who placed an order before 9th June would get his coal delivered at the price ruling at the time he placed his order.

Will the Paymaster-General point out to his hon. and gallant Friend that the distribution side of the coal industry is not nationalised?

There has been some confusion in this case arising from the form of the announcement, and I am sure that it will be made clearer in the future.

asked the Paymaster-General the latest available figures of distributed stocks of coal; and what remains undistributed.

Seventeen million, nine hundred and fifty-one thousands tons and 6,259,000 tons, respectively, at 29th June, 1957.

While the figures of stocks are usually high at this time, is the Paymaster-General aware that the Wath-on-Dearne Urban District Council is using the high figure of stocks in support of an argument that opencast production should cease, and that this council has been supported by the Meriden Rural District Council when the latter received a circular letter? Would the Minister like to say that this high level of stocks is no justification for the cessation of opencast production?

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving me the opportunity to say that these stocks are exceptionally high but that changes in the weather or a sudden increase in industrial production might cause them to disappear; the fact is that we still need all the coal we can possibly get.

asked the Paymaster-General what proportion of the capital investment for the coal industry since 1947 has been financed out of the floating debt; and what proportion out of the funded debt.

Advances by the Minister of Power to the National Coal Board during the years 1947 to 1956 represented about half of the capital investment in the industry during the period, but it is not possible to relate these advances to any particular source of borrowing by the Exchequer.

Is the Paymaster-General satisfied with the present structure of raising capital and that the public are getting value for money in the very large sums now being invested in the nationalised industry?

The National Coal Board aims at and obtains a good return on the investments which it makes. I do not think one could ever be satisfied that everything possible is being done. Clearly, a great deal more is capable of being done.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that this Question is a crucial one, because in so far as capital investment is financed out of the floating debt to that extent inflation goes roaring ahead, but that it does not go roaring ahead if it is financed out of the funded debt?

It is quite impossible to draw a distinction. If my hon. Friend borrowed £5 from each of four people and put it all into a bank and then lent £10 out of that £20, it would be quite impossible to say from which source the money was coming, after it had been pooled.

asked the Paymaster-General if he will make a statement on Government policy in relation to the future import and export of coal.

As I stated in the debate on 30th April, our objective is to do without coal imports and to restore the cuts in coal exports made in 1955.

Does not the Paymaster-General agree that, in view of the fact that the coal supply position now is at least a little easier, this is an excellent opportunity for the Government to revise their policy generally upon this issue?

I do not think that it is quite as simple as that, because the coal supply situation is easier in small coal in particular, and our customers on the Continent are in an equally easy position. But the National Coal Board is vigorously pursuing a policy of exporting as much as it can.

asked the Paymaster-General if he will give a general direction to the Central Electricity Authority to provide an alternate supply of electricity to all areas so that all current may not be eliminated in cases of severe storm.

No, Sir. The electricity authorities are already spending large sums to safeguard supplies during emergencies and the cost of attempting to provide against all risks would be prohibitive.

Does the Paymaster-General realise that in the Kingwood area of South Oxfordshire on 30th June electricity was cut off for two and a half hours; that that area includes a moderate sized hospital and other important institutions? Cannot something be done to avoid that sort of inconvenience? How many areas during the recent storms have been in a similar position of having their electricity cut off for several hours?

The weather conditions were quite exceptional on 30th June, and there were reports of interruptions in supply from four areas. This is a very important matter, but it is impossible to provide for every contingency. The individual area boards are anxious to do what they can, particularly for hospitals. If I can do anything to help, perhaps the hon. Member will let me know.

Does my right hon. Friend realise that there are many parts of the country, especially in my constituency, which have no supply of electricity at all. Will he see that they are given priority?

One must measure one priority against another.

While accepting what the right hon. Gentleman says about the impossibility of supplying an alternative on the grid system, is it not the case that all hospitals have an alternative emergency supply for operating theatres? If there is a case of a hospital without one, is that not something with which his Ministerial colleague should deal immediately?

There is a later Question on this subject to my right hon. Friend.

asked the Paymaster-General if he will estimate, in the light of the most recent information available to him, what proportion of the national energy requirements will be met in 1965 from coal, oil, hydro-electricity, and nuclear power stations, respectively, showing how this compares with 1956.

On present supply plans, we could expect the percentage of inland energy requirements met by oil and hydro-electricity to increase from 15 to about 20 per cent. and from half a per cent. to three-quarters of a per cent., respectively, while nuclear power grows to four or five per cent. The percentage met by coal may fall from 85 to 75 per cent., but the tonnage of coal used at home should increase appreciably as should the amount exported.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how many applications he has received for financial grants to enable students to undertake agricultural college courses for the national diploma in the forthcoming session; and how many awards he has made.

Ninety-six applications have been received for awards for diploma courses. Ten applicants have been offered awards for diploma courses at agricultural colleges beginning next October, and three for diploma courses at universities and farm institutes.

In view of the large number of applicants, does not the hon. Member think that more of these courses should be made avaliable if we are to obtain a more scientifically conducted agriculture in future years?

The hon. Member should remember that the bulk of the awards made to the sons of agricultural workers and others in the rural areas come not so much from my Ministry, but from local authority awards. Only a very marginal number are made by my Ministry.

But does not the Minister realise that local authorities differ from one area to another in the sort of scholarships they give and the assistance they give to local boys? More assistance coming from the centre would be gratefully received, and used to better advantage.

In general, I would have thought that local authorities deal with this matter fairly adequately. Only a very few of these grants are available. They were instituted a long time ago, before local authority ones were available.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what financial grants are available for students wishing to take a two-year course at an agricultural college.

Students taking courses at agricultural colleges are eligible for awards from their local education authorities. In addition, there are a limited number of Ministry scholarships for the sons and daughters of agricultural workers.

It is precisely in the category of the sons and daughters of agricultural workers that I ask him whether he should not extend the assistance that he is giving? The sons and daughters of agricultural workers most need assistance. If there are difficulties with regard to local authorities, would it not be better if central scholarships and central grants were made available by the Ministry itself?

I agree with the hon. Member absolutely that that is where we need to encourage the students to come from. I accept that absolutely, but I do not follow him the rest of the way. If he knows of difficulties in particular areas, I should be very glad to look into them.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the cost of the subsidy on cartridges for shooting pigeons over the latest convenient period; and whether he is satisfied with the working of the scheme.

The cost of the rebate on cartridges for the twelve months ended 31st March last was about £42,000. The new arrangements introduced last year have led to a considerable improvement in the working of the scheme, which has been running without any real difficulties.

Is my hon. Friend satisfied that the administration of the scheme does not cost any substantial sum in addition to this £42,000? Will he look ahead and see if he cannot do away with this subsidised cartridge scheme, which seems quite unnecessary? In view of the amount of damage pigeons do, people ought to be encouraged to shoot them without a subsidy or a bribe.

We are considering the future position, but I think that the scheme is doing a valuable amount of work. I am advised that over two million birds are regarded as having been shot last year as a result of this scheme, which is a benefit.

Are any unsubsidised cartridges being bought by farmers?

I am advised that the amount being bought under this scheme is about 5 per cent. of the total.

Used by farmers?

Will the Minister look at the matter again? I entirely agree with my hon. Friend that there is no reason why people should not take action in their own interests, without having a present made to them at the taxpayer's expense. I hope that my hon. Friend will look at this and similar schemes and see if he can reduce the expense.

I have been looking at this scheme only recently, and I am satisfied that it is performing a useful function to the agricultural community in helping to keep down these pests.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will make compulsory the slaughter of casualty animals in rooms separate from those used for normal slaughtering.

No, Sir. The slaughter of casualty animals may often require special care, but my right hon. Friend does not think it would be reasonable to compel all slaughterhouses to provide separate rooms for this purpose.

In view of the fact that several widespread cases of food poisoning have been traced to such slaughter, will the Joint Parliamentary Secretary look at the matter again and see whether we cannot follow the standards enforced in many other countries and so avoid this danger to our health?

I will look at the matter again, but I would remind the hon. Member that the Inter-Departmental Committee on Slaughterhouses did not include this as one of its recommendations.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food with what bodies he is holding consultations about safety in agriculture; and what draft Regulations he hopes next to bring forward.

Before making any Regulations under the Agriculture (Safety, Health and Welfare Provisions) Act, 1956, my right hon. Friend and his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland must consult such organisations as appear to them to represent the interests concerned. These include on all occasions the organisations representing employers, workers and landowners; other bodies are consulted according to the subject. The list of organisations so far consulted is rather long, and I will, with permission, circulate it with the OFFICIAL REPORT.

I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. In future consultations, will he ask the interests concerned to combine with the Ministry in looking into the possibility of making a film illustrative of farm dangers, and methods of avoiding them?

I am obliged to my hon. Friend for that suggestion. I will gladly look into it.

Of course we welcome these Regulations, and urge the Minister to press on with further Regulations, but will he look into the point being raised as to the possible steps to take to advertise the way of avoiding these dangers?

I agree with the hon. Member that the greater amount of publicity that we can give to this matter the better.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what steps he proposes to take to ensure that the United Kingdom fulfils the hope expressed in the Anglo-Australian Agreement of February, 1957, that our imports of Australian wheat and flour would not fall below 750,000 tons a year.

Those arrangements are between the United Kingdom flour millers and the Australian Wheat Board, but my right hon. Friend keeps the position under review and will consult as necessary with the trades concerned.

Is my hon. Friend aware that last calendar year the total of wheat and wheat substitutes did not reach the 750,000 tons a year level? Can he give some assurance that Australian wheat growers will not be let down as were the meat producers over the weekend?

On the first part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question, my advice is that there is no likelihood that the figure will not be reached. As regards the second part, I really must tell him that I do not think that there is any justification for putting a question in that form. In fact, the Australian meat producers have not been let down. We are willing to take all the meat that they desire to send. The only difference, if any, is in our estimation of the future market in this country.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what are the up-to-date figures of the cost of providing an adequate diet for representative groups of the community.

My right hon. Friend cannot give figures for the cost of an adequate diet, because this covers a number of requirements, including palatability, flavour, variety, and ease of preparation, on which the demands and preferences of consumers differ considerably. But he would expect a diet designed merely to supply known nutrient requirements to cost less than is actually spent by any group in the community. The range of actual household expenditure on food per head, according to the National Food Survey, in 1956 was from 17s. 6d. per head per week in the largest families, with four or more children, to 37s. 11d. for adult couples under 55. The average was 27s. 4d. in England and Wales and 27s. in Scotland.

Would the Parliamentary Secretary be prepared to look at this matter again in view of the report published by the British Medical Association in June, 1933, which exposed a general lack of adequate diets among various categories of people in this country? Surely, a similar report could be produced bringing the information up to date and then we should have a sociological index which would, I am sure, demonstrate that a good many old people and some larger families are living at rather low levels of nutrition?

I will examine that matter, but I think we have adequate information at the present time. I do not agree that a large number of people are living below the level of nutrition. The hon. Member mentioned older people. The figure for old-age pensioners is 24s. 9d. a week and compares not unfavourably with a number of other groups.

As there have been one or two surveys on old-age pensioners which are very disturbing, will the Parliamentary Secretary look again at this and see whether he can get the figures up to date?

My right hon. Friend is concerned to try to speed up the figures, but it is a complicated matter and unless we keep them accurate they are of no value. It takes some time to work them out.

Will the hon. Gentleman's Department consider carefully the disclosures contained in the recent reports about Sunderland and Salford, which are of great importance?

I will gladly give that assurance.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he is aware that there is a large surplus of maize in the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland; and what steps he proposes to take to persuade importers to buy more maize from the Federation and less from the United States of America and the Argentine Republic.

The import of maize is a matter for private importers. They have greatly increased their purchases from the Federation and there is no reason to think they will not buy more as shipments can be arranged.

Is my hon. Friend aware that last year we spent £26 million on buying maize from the United States and £4 million on buying maize from the Argentine, with both of which countries we have an unfavourable balance of trade? Is it not wrong to spend money in dollar countries when there is maize from the Federation for which a market is required?

There is a slight difference in the qualities of the maize, but the greatest difficulty in increasing the supply from the Federation is that created by the lack of shipping, which is definitely a limiting factor. This year, until the end of May, no maize has been imported from the Argentine, whereas imports from Rhodesia and Nyasaland are already considerably up on the total last year.

asked the Minister of Supply (1) to what extent he has sought the views of trade union leaders on the possibilities of converting Royal Ordnance factories to civil use as the defence programme runs down;

My right hon. Friend already has satisfactory arrangements for consultation with the trades unions through the Ministry of Supply Joint Industrial Council, of which I am the Chairman. The Council has frequently discussed the question of civil work in the Royal Ordnance factories. My right hon. Friend also discussed at a special meeting of the Council the future of the Royal Ordnance factories with representatives of the shop stewards of all factories on 7th May.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary give an assurance that no irrevocable action will be taken now, either by way of further redundancies, the closing down of factories or the selling of them to private interests, before the views of the trade unions and shop stewards have been considered and the Minister has reported upon them to the House?

I cannot give any such assurance. I can say that my right hon. Friend is satisfied that the existing machinery in the Ministry of Supply for consultation with trade unions, both at headquarters and factory level, is adequate.

asked the Minister of Supply if he will give further consideration to the possibilities of producing mining machinery and railway equipment at the Royal Ordnance Factory at Radway Green; and if he will consult local trade union representatives about the matter.

Discussions are taking place with British Railways which, I hope, may lead to work fitting for this Factory and which will not interfere with the main production lines.

I appreciate that answer. May I ask whether the Parliamentary Secretary is aware that there is a definite shortage of capital goods, not only in the United Kingdom but also in the Colonial Territories? Did it not emerge from the Conference of Commonwealth Prime Ministers that there is a great need to produce capital goods in Britain for the Commonwealth? Is he aware that factories like the Royal Ordnance Factory at Radway Green would be admirable for this purpose?

The question of the utilisation of Royal Ordnance factories is receiving the attention of my right hon. Friend. I will convey to him what the hon. Member has said, but I cannot accept all his implications.

asked the Minister of Supply what steps he is proposing to take for placing further orders at the Royal Ordnance Factory, Maltby.

asked the Minister of Supply what steps he proposes taking to maintain stable employment at the Royal Ordnance Factory, Dalmuir, Clydebank.

asked the Minister of Supply if he will state the extent to which he anticipates that the establishment at the Royal Ordnance Factory, Enfield, will be affected by the reduction in the defence programme.

The future of these and the other Royal Ordnance factories is under consideration at the present time. My right hon. Friend hopes to make an announcement shortly.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary give an assurance that the Royal Ordnance factory at Maltby, where there is first-class machinery, is given opportunities equal to those provided for private industry?

I quite agree that there is a first-class factory at Maltby. In common with all the others, the future of that establishment is at present under consideration and I cannot anticipate the statement shortly to be made by my right hon. Friend.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that the Royal Ordnance Factory at Dalmuir is the only electrical engineering plant in the whole of Scotland, and will he give an assurance that he will do everything in his power to continue the employment of the factory in the manufacture of civil work as was done after 1949?