asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance (1) if he is aware of the hardship caused to men injured in the coal mines who have their sickness benefit stopped on the grounds that they are fit for light work, yet are living in an area where practically no light work is available; and what steps he is taking to relieve this hardship;

I have no reason to believe that in general the provisions governing this matter are working other than well, or that they are not sensibly and humanely administered. The hon. Lady will be aware that unemployment benefit is payable for periods ranging up to 19 months. If, however, the hon. Lady has any particular case in mind and will let me know, I will be happy to look into it.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that if one loses a leg or an arm or an eye, or has serious pneumoconiosis, one suffers from it for the rest of one's life? Would the right hon. Gentleman tell me how he would feel if he had started working in a coal pit at the age of 15 and, at the age of 40, after twenty-five years, found himself disabled for life and unable to work or earn as formerly; and if, after nineteen months at the very most, his unemployment plus disablement pension benefits were cut off and he were certified as fit for light work although no light work was available? How would he feel if he were drawing National Assistance benefit from which the ordinary compensation rates had been subtracted?

Obviously the kind of case to which the hon. Lady refers excites the sympathy of all of us, but it is a little difficult to deal with a somewhat complex issue of this kind on the basis—and I say this in no offensive sense—of a hypothetical example of that kind. The hon. Lady is aware that there is the fall-back on an employability supplement under the Industrial Injuries Act. I hope that later this afternoon the House will be engaged in raising the level of that supplement.

Because of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I shall raise the question at the earliest possible moment. There is nothing about losing a leg or an arm which makes a man fit for normal work.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many insured persons have forfeited benefits owing to their claims being made too late.

There are no general statistics of such cases, but such information as is available indicates that they are relatively very few.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many different forms of advice and instructions his Department has issued explaining the present insurance scheme.

Information of this kind is conveyed on pension books, orders and application forms, as well as on a large number of explanatory leaflets, and notices in my local offices and post offices. I am much indebted to the Press and Radio for their constant help in the matter.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will publish a comprehensive booklet giving the time, place and other conditions necessary for a claim to be made for National Insurance benefits.

This information is contained in a publication called "Everybody's Guide to National Insurance." I propose to publish a new edition bringing the position up to date after the legislation now before Parliament has become law.

The Minister is aware, I am sure, that when there is any large-scale reorganisation within areas of administration, unless complete publicity is given to these alterations they lead to a considerable amount of confusion among the general public who have to make applications for benefit. Is he aware that I have been very pleased to hear of some of the steps he proposes to take about future advertising?

I am obliged to the hon. Member. I agree with him that it is very important that as much information as possible about this inevitably rather complex system is given to those concerned, which means, virtually, the whole of our population.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he has yet reached a decision on the question of those people who continue to work after normal retiring age and who fail by a narrow margin to obtain their full increments.

Although I understand and sympathise with the intention behind the hon. Lady's Question, I have no statement to make on this subject at present.

Is the Minister aware that some months ago he gave a promise to the House that he would consider this matter? Surely during that time he ought to have considered it and to have reached a decision. Is he aware that many old people, seventy years of age, who have worked since they were fourteen, are now finding, through no fault of their own, that after they have paid five years' extra contributions they are not getting the retirement pension which they expected to get?

There is no reason for anybody to expect to get a bigger retirement pension than that to which he is entitled, since the conditions are very widely known. As I said in the main answer, I have some sympathy with what, I think, is the hon. Lady's point about the length of period required in respect of each increment, but she appreciates that this is, perhaps in a small measure, part of the wider problem of the provision for old age to which study is being given.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance the number of people in receipt of National Assistance in Wales during November, 1957; and the comparative number for 1956, 1955, and 1950, respectively.

The National Assistance Board informs me that 129,000 weekly assistance grants were being paid in Wales at 29th October, 1957, the latest date for which information is available, and that the comparable figures for 1956, 1955 and 1950 were 127,000 125,000 and 110,000, respectively.

Is not the Minister disturbed by this steady increase—if I heard aright—in the number in receipt of National Assistance in Wales?

The impression of a steady increase is, I think, occasioned by the hon. Gentleman's selectivity in the choice of dates. If he looks at 1952, 1953 and 1954, he will see that the figures were then higher than the latest, which I have just given.

Can my right hon. Friend tell us the proportion of people on assistance in relation to pensioners, for example? Is there any marked difference between Wales and the rest of the United Kingdom?

I should like notice of that.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance the number of people in Cardiff who have been granted extra National Assistance to meet increased rent charges; and what is the total amount of money involved each week.

Up to 2nd November, 1957, the National Assistance Board's offices in Cardiff, which serve an area extending beyond the city, had increased about 1,600 weekly assistance grants to provide for rent increases under the Rent Act. The increased assistance averaged about 5s. 7d, a week, but as some of the recipients of such grants will have ceased to require assistance since the increases were granted, the figure asked for in The latter part of the Question is not known.

As I am rather weak in arithmetic, I have found the Minister's Answer rather difficult to follow. Am I right in assuming that, taking out those who have fallen out in the meantime, about £250 a week subsidy to the landlords of Cardiff is being undertaken by the Assistance Board?

Without venturing to comment on the right hon. Gentleman's mathematics, I would put this to him, if I may: that if it is necessary to help a poor person who is unable to pay the full rent of his house, it is, on the whole, fairer for that to be done by the community as a whole, through the National Assistance Board, than on an individual basis by his landlord.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what Christmas bonus he proposes to grant to old-age pensioners in view of the fact that the proposed increase in the basic allowance will not be paid until the new year.

I assume the hon. Gentleman has retirement pensioners in mind, and in that connection I share the view of my predecessors that the payments which the hon. Gentleman suggests would not he appropriate to a compulsory scheme of contributory insurance.

But is the Minister aware that he would have the support of the entire community, I am quite confident, if, in view of the accepted need of the old folk, which the House acknowledges and which the right hon. Gentleman is attempting to put right in January, some such gift could be made? In those circumstances, could not he reconsider this question?

I believe that this matter of a Christmas bonus has been raised every year, certainly, for the last six or seven years, but it has. I think, generally been thought that an act of that sort—of a charitable kind, and a very admirable thing for voluntary bodies to undertake—is not an appropriate use of the funds of a contributory pension scheme, the benefits of which are available without any regard to the needs of the recipient.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will make an investigation into the economic position of war widows whose husbands were in receipt of war pensions of 80 per cent. or more at the time of death; and if he will cause research to be undertaken in order to ascertain what percentage of such war widows are in receipt of a war widow's pension.

While I am concerned to follow closely the position of war widows generally, I know of no reason for a special investigation into the category of widow to whom the hon. Member refers, since the degree of disability of her late husband can have little relevance to her present economic position. In any event, as the hon. Member will be aware, the position of all qualified war widows will be substantially improved at the end of January as the result of the changes which I announced on 6th November.

Surely the Minister knows what I am getting at. Is he not aware that during the lives of these badly-disabled war pensioners their wives have had a very rough time? I know that these war pensioners are apt to be a bit cantankerous at times, and their wives have to bear the brunt of it. This question of the admissibility of those wives to a war widow's pension should be looked at when the men die, because there is no doubt that while medically the Department can get away with it, morally it cannot?

Morally, I think that everything depends, from the war pension point of view, on whether or not it is possible to show that the man's death was caused by his pensioned disability. Where there is a doubt the benefit of it is given, but despite the hon. Gentleman's great experience of war pension administration, I believe that it would be quite wrong, and it would undermine the preference and priority given by all Governments to war pensioners, if one were to seek to extend the war widow's pension provisions to cover widows, who have become widows as a result of the ordinary chances of life and not as a result of their husband's war injury.

Would the Minister consider the position of the man who, having lost a limb, cannot have any more surgical treatment but who, because of his loss, has a low expectancy of life? There is a case, in circumstances of that kind, for the widow to have the benefit of the doubt.

Where it can be shown in a particular case that the man's death was hastened by his war disability that is done, but, in general, the hon. Gentleman will be aware that the medical proposition that he has stated is contrary to the expressed views of the Rock-Carling Committee.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if the 90,000 widows now in receipt of 10s. pension will be required to pay the increased stamp contribution under the new Bill.

Yes, Sir, on the same basis and subject to the same qualifications as everybody else.

But is it not a different qualification in respect of these widows? They do not get any increase at all, they are still to be kept on 10s., but they are asked to pay 2s. extra to increase the pensions of other widows who are already getting the full pension.

No, Sir. If these ladies are contributing and their contribution is increased, the various benefits under the National Insurance Scheme in respect of which the contributions are paid are, at the same time, being increased. I do not want to debate the whole question of the 10s. widow at Question Time, but the hon. Lady will remember that the great majority of these ladies are getting 10s. whereas their opposite numbers under the National Insurance Scheme get no pension at all.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will remove the earning limit enforced upon old-age pensioners; and whether he will make a statement.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will take immediate steps to abolish the rule which limits the earning power of old-age pensioners.

I refer the hon. Members to the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, West (Sir I. Clark Hutchison) on 11th November.

Is the Minister aware that if quite recently a civil servant retired and then more recently took up another appointment, his pension is not affected by his new employment? Until such times as we can remove poverty in old age, is it not desirable that what applies to the civil servant should also apply to the other pensioners within the community?

The hon. Gentleman will no doubt recall that from the beginning of this scheme the view of Lord Beveridge was accepted, which was that if an adequate pension were to be provided at the age of 65 for men and 60 for women a retirement condition was essential to it if the burden were to be carried. That view has been held by successive Governments since the Scheme began.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many people are now in receipt of non-contributory old-age pensions.

At 29th October, 1957, about 236,000.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what will be the annual cost of paying non-contributory old-age pensions, including the proposed additional 2s. 4d. a week; and by what amount he estimates that this would be increased if the pension were to be paid as of right and without a test of means.

The National Assistance Board informs me that non-contributory old-age pensions, including the proposed addition of 2s. 4d., are expected to cost rather less than £14 million in the next financial year. No reliable estimate can be made of what the cost would be if the statutory condition relating to means were removed; if all persons who might then become eligible applied for the non-contributory pension, the extra initial cost to the Exchequer, after allowing for savings in national assistance, would probably amount to between £30 million and £40 million a year.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance the number of tenant occupiers in Southampton who have received increased rent allowances since the Rent Act became law; and how many of these cases were referred to him because the rent increase was above twice the gross rateable value.

Up to 2nd November, 1957, the National Assistance Board's offices in Southampton, which serve an area extending beyond the city, had increased about 900 weekly assistance grants to provide for rent increases under the Rent Act. There is no reason why any case such as is suggested in the latter part of the Question should be referred to me, but in any event the National Assistance Board informs me that it is not aware of any case where the rent increase for which the Board is providing exceeds the increase permitted under the Act.

While thanking the Minister for what he and his local officers are doing to alleviate some of the worse evils of the Rent Act, may I ask him to confirm that local officers are entitled to meet even unreasonable increases in rent by profiteering landlords in decontrolled houses? Will he protect his Department by persuading the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Housing and Local Government to put a ceiling to the rent increases that can be made?

I do not think the last part of the supplementary arises out of the original Question. As to the earlier part of the supplementary, I made a considered statement on the policy of the National Assistance Board in this House on 1st August, to which I prefer not to add.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether it is now accepted that prolonged inhalation of noxious dusts can cause injury to lungs and bronchial tubes without any changes shown on X-ray; and whether he will instruct the pneumoconiosis panels to examine every worker clinically as well as radiologically when a claim is made.

As a general proposition, I have no reason to disagree with the first part of the hon. Member's Question, though its application is limited to certain classes of case. As regards the second part, I am satisfied that in the case of pneumoconiosis there is proper opportunity for clinical examination whenever it is needed.

While thanking the Minister for the first part of his answer, may I take it that he agrees that every case about which there is any doubt at all should appeal if the person concerned is rejected only on X-ray examination?

It is certainly not for me to advise appeals, whether on that basis or any other, but I think, perhaps, the hon. Gentleman is in any event anticipating his next Question.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many workers were examined for pneumoconiosis in England and Wales by the pneumoconiosis panels in the last year for which figures are available; of these, how many claims were rejected on X-ray examination alone without clinical assessment; and how many of these latter cases were assessed as suffering from pulmonary disability after they appealed and were clinically examined.

In the year ending 30th June, 1957, 13,597 persons were examined by the Pneumoconiosis Medical Panels in England and Wales following claims for benefit under the Industrial Injuries Acts. Of these, 6,512 were rejected on X-ray examination. There were 372 appeals against disallowance on X-ray examination and, after clinical examination, 39 of these appellants were found to be suffering from pneumoconiosis.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree with me that his answer gives point to these two Questions, namely, that if it is at all possible, and as soon as possible, every case should be examined clinically and not only radiologically? Does he not further agree that, however valuable radiological examination may prove to be—and, of course, it is valuable—it does not entirely replace clinical assessment?

I should not like to generalise on as complex an issue as this. As the hon. Gentleman no doubt knows, the advance in X-ray examination in these cases in recent years, particularly at the hospital at Llandough, has been quite remarkable. I really would not like to seek to lay down any general proposition. In reply to the hon. Gentleman's earlier question, it is the fact that in cases of appeal there is a clinical examination in addition to the X-ray examination.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many of these 6,000 cases were mine workers?

I cannot say without notice. It would certainly be the large majority, but I will get the figure if the right hon. Gentleman wishes.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a growing feeling that the criterion used in assessing and judging these cases ought to be reviewed in the light of experience gained in past years and, in particular, in the light of experience gained in the hospital to which he has referred?

There has been great progress in scientific examination not only into the diagnosis but, I am glad to say, in the treatment of this appalling complaint. I am not aware, although a number of questions have been raised, that the main principles of the Industrial Injuries Act have been shown to be inappropriate.

Is the Minister aware that a higher percentage of miners who are certified to be suffering from pneumoconiosis are also certified as fit for light work? Will he therefore look carefully at Questions Nos. 1 and 2 which I asked relating to this matter, because a problem in many of our mining areas is that although it would be good for men to have light jobs—indeed, they want light jobs—and although they are certified fit for such light work, there is no such work available?

I acknowledge that that is a problem and has been so for many years.

As the right hon. Gentleman's answers have been only partially satisfactory, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Paymaster-General what agreement has been come to with regard to linking the electricity systems of Great Britain and France by means of a cross-Channel cable; when work is likely to start; and when it is likely to be completed.

The Central Electricity Authority and Electricité de France have agreed to proceed with a scheme for linking the electricity systems of Great Britain and France. My noble Friend has given his approval in principle to the Central Electricity Authority, but work cannot start until the Authority has completed its detailed planning and secured the necessary statutory consents. It is hoped that the project will be completed by the winter of 1960–61.

Can my right hon. Friend say what the approximate total cost will be; who pays this total cost; is it shared or paid by this country; who will benefit, and in what way?

The total cost will be about £4 million of which we shall pay half and the French will pay half, and the total annual savings to the two countries should be about £300,000.

asked the Paymaster-General what steps are being taken to carry out the recommendations of the Herbert Committee for reorganisation of power station construction arrangements and the electrical generation system of the country under the new Generating Board.

My noble Friend understands that the Generating Board has not yet completed its consideration of this problem of organisation. It will announce its decision as soon as it is in a position to do so.

Will the right hon. Gentleman press his noble Friend in his turn to press upon those responsible the need for the fullest consultation with the trade unions and staff associations before these changes are carried through?

I am quite certain that the Generating Board is well aware of that important matter.

asked the Paymaster General, whether his attention has been called to the doubts expressed by the Chairman of the National Industrial Fuel Efficiency Service lest the campaign for fuel saving in industry should suffer for lack of finance; and what steps he proposes to meet this situation.

I sympathise with the anxiety of the Chairman of N.I.F.E.S. to promote fuel efficiency by all possible means. I fear, however, that it is impossible, in present circumstances, to contemplate further special measures to help industry to finance the installation of more efficient plant.

Is my right hon. Friend not aware of the strong feeling that we are not pressing on sufficiently vigorously in this matter of fuel economy? Will not he think the matter over again?

I agree that there is a great deal still to be done, but the Government are helping by the loan scheme and investment allowances. The main requirement is for industry as a whole to recognise the great benefits which will flow to it from the installation of modern, efficient fuel utilisation plant.

asked the Paymaster General how many scientists are now employed in his Department; and what is his present expenditure on scientific research.

One hundred and sixty-two; expenditure in the current financial year is estimated to be about £1,045,000.

Can the right hon. Gentleman assure us that he has enough scientists to carry out the atomic energy plan?

The responsibility in this country for atomic energy research rests with the Atomic Energy Authority, which is a quite different matter.

asked the Paymaster-General to give an approximate estimate as to the amount in ingot tons per annum by which the production of steel in the United Kingdom is now running below the maximum attainable with present productive resources.

The Iron and Steel Board estimates that the output of crude steel in October was roughly 3½ per cent. below the actual maximum atainable in present circumstances. In annual terms, this represents about 850,000 ingot tons.

Bearing in mind that we are at present importing over 1 million ingot tons per annum, largely from non-sterling sources, will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that that waste of productive capacity does not increase?

The interesting thing is that, while home deliveries were below the 1956 level so far in this year, the industry has increased its exports by more than the decline in home deliveries, and imports, to which the hon. Gentleman refers, have been cut by half.

asked the Paymaster-General if he has now had an opportunity to consider the success of the Bradford experiment in coal distribution; and if he will make a statement.

The delegation of powers to the Bradford City Council in 1955 made it possible to intensify the checks on coal prices in the Bradford area and an increased number of prosecutions under the Coal Control Orders resulted. Where there are circumstances similar to those existing at Bradford in 1955 my noble Friend is prepared to grant the local authority concerned similar powers, but as these necessarily include authority to enter business premises he will do so only if exceptional need is demonstrated.

Is not the Paymaster-General aware that that is a similar reply to the one that I got three months ago? The reply that I got last week was that the Minister was going to inquire into the Bradford system. Does he know that the Minister has inquired into the Bradford system, that he sent officials months ago to look at the Bradford system and that the officials reported that it was a much better method of inspection than the Minister's own? According to the journal of the inspectors' institute, up and down the country as much as 40s. a ton is overcharged simply by faking the grade?

I did say what had been the result of our examination of the Bradford system. However, one must have regard to the other principle, which is that one should not extend the use of the emergency powers beyond what is really necessary.

Owing to the ignorant nature of that reply, I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.

I do not think I heard all the hon. Lady's epithets, but I would advise her, if she gives notice to raise a matter on the Adjournment, that it is better to use the proper formula.

It is very difficult, Mr. Speaker, for a back bencher to deal with Ministers who change so frequently. One seems to be learning and feeling his way by groping around, giving a different reply from that given by his predecessor.

The hon. Lady may raise all these matters on the Adjournment of which she has given notice, but I am afraid they are not a point of order or matters in which I can intervene.

asked the Paymaster-General the present stocks of household coal in Scotland compared with the figure a year ago.

227,100 tons at 2nd November, 1957, compared with 251,900 tons at the corresponding date last year.

asked the Paymaster-General if he will abolish coal rationing and thereby save the public trouble and the taxpayer money.

Although my noble Friend is anxious to abolish coal restrictions, this could at present be achieved only by continuing heavy coal imports which, in present financial circumstances, it must be our aim to reduce.

Will my right hon. Friend look at the matter again? If there is enough to go round as things are now, how can he say what he is saying? Further, how far are the fuel overseers or fuel inspectors in the towns of England fully employed?

I can assure my hon. Friend that no one is more anxious than my noble Friend to get rid of coal rationing as soon as possible; but the fact is that coal of the sizes necessary for domestic household consumption is not available in the quantity needed. Therefore, it is quite impossible to abolish rationing without having greater imports of large coal.

asked the Paymaster-General what is the current rate of coal imports from the United States of America and coal exports to Europe; and what are the respective prices per ton.

In September, which is the latest month for which the Trade and Navigation Accounts are available, 95,000 tons of large coal were imported from America at a landed cost of about £8 8s. a ton and approximately 450,000 tons, mainly of the smaller sizes, were exported to Europe at an average f.o.b. value of £5 15s. per ton.

But does the right hon. Gentleman not think that that is a ridiculous state of affairs, and will he not agree that it would be possible for him to end rationing and save dollars at one and the same time by appealing to the patriotism of the landlords who are now getting more rent to persuade them to put in modern grates in which small coal and processed fuel could be burned?

It is ridiculous only if one fails to appreciate the difference between small coal and large coal or the capital cost of installing grates on the scale required.

Is it not the fact, and will not my right hon. Friend recall, that successive Ministers of Fuel and Power and successive Chancellors of the Exchequer, from both sides of the House, have done absolutely nothing to encourage householders to install the necessary appliances to burn smaller coal? Will my right hon. Friend appreciate that, so long as he continues to bury his head in the sand like an ostrich and Jo nothing, householders will not take steps of that kind unless encouraged to do so by the Government? What does he intend to do about it?

I cannot accept the premises on which my hon. Friend's question is based. In any case, it surely should not need very much encouragement for householders to install that kind of appliance which, in fact, brings them greater economy in the use of the coal they have to buy.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he is aware that vouchers in payment of agricultural subsidies require the recipient to endorse his name over a 2d. stamp before payment is made, and that this is no longer necessary in view of the Cheques Act; and what action he proposes to take to bring this practice into accord with the law.

Most of the payments of agricultural subsidies are made by payable order drawn on H.M. Paymaster-General, and the provision of the Cheques Act, 1957, does not apply to these payable orders. It is still necessary for the recipient of a payable order to give a receipt over a 2d. stamp.

My hon. Friend said that most of the subsidies are paid in that way. Will he say which subsidies are and which are not?

I think that this covers practically all the subsidies. There are certain local payments which are made by cheque.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will now publish the report made to him by the Cardiff City Constabulary based on their examination of certain documents alleged to bear the signature of Mr. J. M. Davidson, High Trees, Sulley, Glamorganshire.

No, Sir. My right hon. Friend is advised that reports made by the police in connection with criminal investigations should be treated as confidential.

Is it not the fact that the report from the Cardiff City Forensic Laboratory to the Cardiff City Police indicates that certain signatures which have been attributed to my constituent are, in fact, open to the gravest suspicion, and does my hon. Friend not consider that the withholding of evidence of this kind will only encourage public suspicion and anxiety?

I think that we shall have an opportunity of debating this at greater length later this week, but may I make clear, in view of certain statements which have appeared in the Press in Wales on this matter, that some of the comments referred to signatures apparently relating to land sales which are nothing of the sort. These signatures relate to some ploughing and cultivations carried out by the Glamorgan Agricultural Executive Committee, for which Mr. Davidson has never paid.

Will the Minister now give further consideration to this, in view of the fact that Mr. Davidson has made certain charges which the police have investigated? The report is now in the Minister's hands. Does he not believe that any little farmer in the country has a right to know whether the police have found justified his charge or not, expecially since the charge is against the Department of which the Minister is a head?

This relates to police reports, and I am told that it is quite improper for us to disclose them. But, as I have said, we shall have the opportunity to discuss this at greater length later this week.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he is aware that, although since 28th September wholesale prices for best English bacon have dropped by 10 per cent., there has been no fall in retail prices other than a reduction of 2d. per lb. in the price of prime back bacon; and if he will take steps, by reintroducing price control or otherwise, to ensure that lower pig prices to farmers are reflected by lower bacon prices in the shops.

According to my right hon. Friend's information, price reductions have by no means been confined to prime back bacon nor limited to 2d. a lb. though, of course, the position varies considerably from shop to shop. The answer to the second part of the question is. "No, Sir."

Is the Minister aware that the reduction in price quoted in the Question is the only one quoted, since 28th September, in The Grocer, and they are official prices? Is he further aware that, as a result of the Government's support price policy, the taxpayers are paying heavily, farmers are receiving low prices, and the housewife is paying high prices? What does the Minister propose to do when there is a plentiful supply to bring down the prices in the shops?

I cannot accept that this reduction is representative. The information I have shows very much more substantial falls in a large number of retail shops, and, indeed, that is borne out by the information which my own wife gave me over the weekend.

Will the hon. Gentleman favour hon. Members by letting them have the prices he refers to? Secondly, is there no point between a low wholesale price and a high retail price when his right hon. Friend will think it his duty to interfere on behalf of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is concerned with inflation?

I certainly do not think that it would help if we were to interfere and start to control prices. I do not believe that that has in the past had a beneficial effect, and I do not think that housewives would welcome it.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what figures he has to show the percentage of imported Irish cattle which react to the tuberculin test when tested in the United Kingdom.

Of the Irish cattle entering tuberculosis attested areas in Great Britain during 1956, 2·6 per cent. reacted to the tuberculin test here. The corresponding figure for the first nine months of this year is 2·5. No statistics are available of the incidence of reactors among other Irish cattle imported into this country.

Is my hon. Friend aware that it is the rather dubious efficiency of the Irish Free State tuberculin testing arrangements which accounts for a very marked reluctance among farmers dealing in Irish stores or fattening Irish stores to make their own farms in this country fully attested?

I would not altogether agree on that. I should be quite willing to look at it again, but my own information is that our farmers are taking them fairly readily; and the figures I have quoted show that the percentage is indeed very small.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he is satisfied with the present standard of tuberculosis testing carried on by the Republic of Ireland on store cattle for export to the United Kingdom; or what representations he proposes to make.

My right hon. Friend is advised that the standard of tuberculin testing in the Irish Republic is effectively the same as in this country. His senior veterinary officers keep in close touch in this matter with the authorities in the Republic.

asked the Minister of Agriculture. Fisheries and Food whether he will now increase the maximum rebate under the Cartridge Rebate Scheme from 24s. per 100 in view of the fact that the cheapest cartridge now costs £2 15s. 9d. per 100.

No, Sir. My right hon. Friend would not feel justified in increasing this rebate.

Is my hon. Friend aware that on the form on which application is made for rebate it is stated that the payment is made as to 50 per cent. subject to a maximum of 24s.? In these circumstances, and in view of the Answer which my hon. Friend has just given, would he not consider amending the form?

I shall be happy to look into that. I agree with my hon. Friend that it might be illogical to say that there is a rebate of 50 per cent. when, in fact, we are giving not quite 50 per cent.; but I do not think it would be right to increase the rebate.

Will not the hon. Gentleman consider withdrawing this concession altogether? Why should the taxpayer pay for people's sport?

I could not agree with the latter part of the hon. Member's supplementary question. In the main, this scheme serves a very useful purpose. Wood pigeons are a very great menace and many people who shoot these birds would not do so if they did not have the advantage of the rebate.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (1) in view of the fact that doubt exists whether the Bottle Brook, which has been responsible for considerable flooding in Little Eaton, Derbyshire, is a lesser watercourse and as such not part of the main river of the Trent River Board, if he will bring to a speedy conclusion his present consultations with the various associations concerned with a view to assigning responsibility.

While realising the difficulties in cases such as that referred to by the hon. Member, I am afraid I have nothing to add to the reply given to the hon. Member for Anglesey (Mr. C. Hughes) on I 11th November.

Is the Minister not aware that the Heneage Report has been in the hands of his Department since November, 1950, that the Minister himself announced consultations with the appropriate association in February of this year, and that this delay is causing considerable difficulty everywhere? Will not the Minister conclude these negotiations and himself take a decision?

I have a good deal of sympathy with the point put forward by the hon. Member. As I am sure he is aware, however, it is easy enough to initiate discussions but not quite so easy to bring them to a conclusion.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food his estimate of the total tonnage of potatoes from the 1957 crop.

The best estimate that can be made at present of the total quantity of potatoes grown in the United Kingdom on holdings of more than an acre is approximately 5,700,000 tons.

Is the Minister aware that in 1955 the crop was just over 6¼ million tons? The figure that he has now given is distinctly less, which is not surprising since there were 64,000 fewer acres under potatoes; and in 1955 there was a serious potato shortage. What steps is his right hon. Friend taking to ensure that even greater disaster and even higher prices do not come this year? It is very urgent.

My right hon. Friend is keeping this matter under the closest review. He is aware of the points which have been raised and although the price position has not reached such a state that he would wish to take action at the moment, that does not rule out that he might wish to do so at some future time.

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that his right hon. Friend gave an undertaking to review the means of implementing the guarantee for potatoes. What progress has been made in devising a new price support system for potatoes?

That goes much further than the Question on the Paper.

Is my hon. Friend aware that there is bound to be a shortage? Would it not be better to announce now that import licences will be given when a certain price level for ware potatoes is reached, so that importers can look for the ware potatoes in Europe and other countries in time to avoid the awful muddle which took place a couple of years ago?

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend concerning the need to look at this matter. As I have said, my right hon. Friend is at present looking at it, but I am not in a position to make any statement yet.

rose—

Order. I believe that there is another Question on this potato business later.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what steps he is taking to avoid a potato famine this winter.

My right hon. Friend and his colleagues are at present considering the supply position and, if we are satisfied, after the necessary consultations, that imports of potatoes are required, there will be no delay in arranging for them to be licensed.

Why could the Parliamentary Secretary not say that a few minutes ago instead of playing around with the other Questions? Will he take note of the fact that the price of potatoes has gone up by about £4 a ton in the last month, that the price is 60 per cent. higher than it was last year, that the acreage is lower than ever since 1940, and that he really must show a little more energy in dealing with the matter?

The reason why I did not say it before was that I did not want to deprive the hon. Member of his right to an answer. In the second place, I accept some of the points he has made, although I do not think that the increase in price has been as much as he said. I assure him, however, that we are very well aware of this position and, as I have tried to indicate, we have it very much in mind.

Will my hon. Friend give an assurance that in the consultations to which he referred in his original Answer, he will give a great deal of weight to the opinion of the Potato Marketing Board, which knows a good deal more about this subject than some of the questioners this afternoon?

I will gladly give my hon. and gallant Friend that assurance.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will hold an investigation into the prices of fish and potatoes at an early date.

No, Sir. The recent increases in prices have been due to scarcity of fish on the distant water grounds and a light crop of potatoes. I do not feel that an inquiry would add anything useful. There have already been reports by the White Fish Authority and the Committee on Horticultural Marketing under Lord Runciman, on the distribution costs of fish and horticultural produce, respectively.

Is the Minister not aware that fish friers all over the country are protesting against the ever-increasing price of fish and potatoes, because they do not want to increase their prices for fish and chips to the general public? Will he ask his right hon. Friend to reconsider the request for investigation?

As far as price is concerned, fish, of course, are sold by auction. I am told that it has been the very bad weather, added to difficulties in the fishing grounds, that has led to this position, but I understand that in the last week the price has dropped substantially.

Would my hon. Friend not agree that it is the bad weather in the distant-water fishing grounds which is making the supply of fish short and, therefore, prices high, and that for the men who go fishing to these grounds it is a very unpleasant job and they do not wish to make the prices of fish any higher? Secondly, will my hon. Friend ensure that any imports of potatoes will not materially affect producers at home?

:Yes, Sir. I stated something similar to what my hon. and learned Friend has just said in the first part of his supplementary question. I entirely agree with him on that. As regards potatoes, it is a matter of keeping a balance. Certainly, we have to look at both sides.

asked the Minister of Supply to what extent the form of contract accepted by his Department for research, development and production work by private industrial firms, provides for increased payments by his Department to meet the cost of increased wages paid by the contracting firms.

The Department's policy is to make contracts at firm prices wherever practicable and to agree to a wages variation clause only where it is justified by the circumstances. It would take an unjustifiable amount of time to extract information about the proportion of total contracts which include variation provisions.

Is it not a fact that, according to the evidence given to various Select Committees, the majority of contracts contain this wages variation clause? Does this not mean that wage increases are passed on automatically to his Department? Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that these arms contracts are the pacemakers of inflation? In view of that, does he not think that it is not only morally unjustifiable but economically futile for his Government to stop wage increases to health workers and to permit these increases to be passed on automatically to his Department?

I do not accept the assumptions in the latter part of the hon. Member's supplementary question. There are some difficulties in this matter. My Department insists upon a fixed price contract wherever possible, but in the case of research and development contracts it is not always possible to estimate with precision the amount of work involved in the contract and, therefore, some latitude must be left with the Department.

asked the Minister of Supply what type of aeroplane had been chartered, and what was its normal seating capacity, for the conveyance of his Departmental party from Belfast to London on 23rd October; and what was the number in the party.

No aircraft was chartered for my right hon. Friend, myself or representatives of the Ministry of Supply, for the journey from Belfast to London on 23rd October. The additional service was provided by British European Airways as a normal commercial flight in the light of their knowledge of the amount of traffic there would be that evening.

asked the Minister of Supply what proposals have been made to him by the Hawker Siddeley Group for the construction of a new civil transport aircraft as a private venture by that company; and if he will make a statement.

The Hawker Siddeley Group, with others, has made proposals for the private venture development of a medium range turbo-jet aircraft to meet a British European Airways requirement. These proposals are still under consideration.

asked the Minister of Supply what progress has been made in the study and/or design of a supersonic civil air transport machine; to what extent this work is still being carried forward by a group of British firms; if he is satisfied with the success of this group approach; and if he will make a statement.

A group of companies, in association with and under the direction of the Royal Aircraft Establishment, Farnborough, are making a research study of possible supersonic civil air transport machines. Much preliminary theoretical work has been done, the main experimental work has been planned and certain research models are now being designed and manufactured. My right hon. Friend believes that the group approach to a problem, which in size extends beyond the capacity of any one company, is the right one.

Does not the Minister also accept that the one feature of this industry is uncertainty? We just do not know what is the future for this industry, which a few years ago showed such promise? Can the Minister tell us whether he is taking any positive steps at all to bring about some more definite mergers or amalgamations to enable this industry to tackle the bigger projects that are essential if it is to prosper in future?

The latter part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question is not part of the original Question he put down. No single aircraft company in this country has enough technical staff or the facilities to undertake the whole responsibility for research into a project of this size. The potential importance of this project is such that my right hon. Friend decided to proceed with a programme of co-operative research, and certain firms were accordingly entrusted with this responsibility.

In view of the uncertainty in the industry, affecting both managements and workers, and of the problem of the cost involved in the building, designing and developing of a new aeroplane, will my hon. Friend consider setting up a committee to advise the Government, the industry and all concerned in the country how much this country can afford to spend on this and future projects?

I must have notice of that question.

asked the Minister of Health what advice his Department gave to the Gosport Borough Council about the safety, or otherwise, of bathing close to sewer outfalls; and why his Department recommended the removal of notices stating that such bathing might be dangerous.

That it was for the medical officer of health to advise his authority on such matters. The question of removing the notices was entirely one for the local authority in the light of such advice.

As I think my right hon. and learned Friend accepts as a fact the finding that the active poliomyelitis virus is excreted in the intestines for some months after the infection, whether it be a parylitic infection or not, may I ask him whether he will encourage health authorities not to be too sanguine about the hitherto undiscovered connection between bathing in dirty water of this kind and the incidence of poliomyelitis?

My hon. Friend will be aware that there is no definite evidence in this country of the transmission of poliomyelitis from this source. I shall, of course, bear in mind what he has been good enough to say.

Does not the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that while there may not be any definite proof that there is this danger, there is at any rate a risk of it? Would it not be better for his Department to advise local authorities of this possibility in order that they may take every safeguard possible?

Yes. It is, of course, a question of what safeguards are practicable and sensible in this context. Investigations are going on by the Public Health Laboratory Service to try to see if there is any evidence of any significant risks attaching to sea bathing. However, it is obviously wise to avoid sea bathing anywhere near sewer outfalls.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that salaries in the National Health Service, which in 1948 were payable from £385 to £760, have only risen since that year by 32 per cent., whilst equivalent salaries in the Civil Service, teaching, and local government services have risen by 54 per cent.; and how the rise of 32 per cent. compares with the rise in the cost of living over the same period.

No, Sir. So far as the Health Service is concerned, increases in salary maxima within that range have not been uniform but have been up to 43 per cent. During the same period, the Retail Prices Index has risen by 48 per cent.

Is the Minister aware that the figures given in the Question are based upon information supplied by the secretary of the organisation covering the men in the dispute? Would it not be wise to meet the men and try to come to sonic arrangement?

The increases throughout the various administrative and clerical grades have not been uniform in the National Health Service, nor indeed in the Civil Service or in local government. The maxima of the scales of the grades in the Health Service have in fact risen, varying from 18 per cent. to 43 per cent. during the time in question.

Has the right hon. and learned Gentleman seen a statement in the Press this morning which gives a comparison relative to the position of these men and others? In view of the fact that public opinion regards his action as unjustified, are not these people being penalised?

I have not seen the particular item to which the right hon. Gentleman draws attention. I am aware of the comparable figures, but the right hon. Gentleman and the House will appreciate that it is not always possible to give effect to precise comparability in an inflationary period without giving a further impetus to those inflationary pressures.

Is it not quite clear that the Minister's use of his veto upon people with a very strong case has produced a very great public reaction against it?

No, Sir. I have repeatedly pointed out in the House and elsewhere that the use of the word "veto" is inappropriate in this case. What I did was to withhold approval in the context of the present economic situation and in view of the inflationary pressure, with an undertaking to review the matter as soon as economic circumstances make it appropriate.

Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman say whether he was aware of the figures contained in the Question when he gave instructions to the Minister's representatives on the Whitley Council not to agree to the wages concession?

I have already indicated to the House that the figures contained in the Question are not the right figures. I was, of course, aware of the correct figures and all other relevant circumstances when making the decision referred to.

asked the Minister of Health what would be the average rise per week of 3 per cent. on the salaries of the workers in the Health Department, covering those in the present dispute; how much would such an increase raise the salaries above the 1948 level; and how this would compare with the rise in the cost of living for the same period.

A 3 per cent. increase in the salaries concerned would mean from £10 to £37 a year. The total increases over 1948 at the maxima of the salary scales would then range between 33 per cent. and 48 per cent. During the same period the Retail Prices Index has risen by 48 per cent.

asked the Minister of Health if, in cases where doctors in the National Health Service have been severely censured and fined, he will refer the cases to the General Medical Council so that they can consider whether the doctors have been guilty of infamous conduct in any professional sense.

It is already the practice to send to the General Medical Council particulars of all cases which, it seems, may come within their purview.

Does that cover the point raised in the Question? Does it mean that when a doctor has been heavily censured in that way his name automatically would be submitted to the General Medical Council?

I think that if the hon. Gentleman will be good enough to study Rule 12 of the Medical Disciplinary Committee Procedure Rules of the General Medical Council, he will see what is the procedure laid down for referring such matters to the Council.

On a point of order. I should be grateful for your help and guidance, Mr. Speaker. I asked, as you know, whether it would be possible to put a Private Notice Question to the Minister of Health relating to the dispute now in progress with some thousands of administrative and clerical workers and affecting 7,000 hospitals. You, Sir, quite rightly, I think, in view of Question No. 59 on the Paper, ruled that it would not be necessary to ask a Private Notice Question. The Question I put to you for your guidance is whether it is possible now to ask the Minister to answer Question No. 59? It would enable the Minister to make a statement on the position and on how the dispute can be resolved. Unless something is done soon we shall face a very grave problem in the hospitals.

I am afraid not. I have not been asked leave to answer that Question. Moreover, I would point out that another reason which led me to disallow the hon. Gentleman's request was that I did not think it was sufficiently urgent for a Private Notice Question.

May I ask whether the Minister proposes to make a statement following the decision of a responsible organisation?

I have no doubt that he has heard what has been said.

Can we take it, Mr. Speaker, that if the Minister were to ask your permission you would not be backward in granting that permission?

I should have to look at the Question first.

With great respect, Mr. Speaker, the position at the moment is that the staffs of 7,000 hospitals have now gone on strike in the sense that they are now slowing down on certain administrative work which may affect the patients' health. I do beg you to believe and ask you to accept that this matter has now become one of urgency. Usually when there is a dispute of this character and it has reached this stage the Minister of Labour tells us here what is being done to resolve it.

I have considered all that and I do not think this matter is urgent enough for a Private Notice Question.

When does it become urgent?