asked the Paymaster-General whether, in view of the Government's decision that the nuclear power programme must be curtailed and slowed down in the interests of the national economy as a whole, he will give general directions to the Central Electricity Authority and other national undertakings under his control as to the undesirability at the present juncture of boosting, by extensive newspaper advertisement, their capital expansion schemes.

No, Sir. Subject to the general provision that the Central Electricity Authority and other nationalised undertakings are required to exercise reasonable restraint in their advertising expenditure, it is for them to decide what forms of advertising are justified.

In the climate of economic and financial stringency created by the policy of Her Majesty's Government, is it not both imprudent and improvident to encourage statutory monopolies to spend huge sums of public money in promotional advertising?

What about Guinness?

That is not a statutory monopoly, thank goodness.

In relation to the amount of capital expenditure, I do not think the amount spent on advertising can be described as excessive. Since the Chancellor made his announcement about economic policy, the wording of some of these advertisements was altered in order to conform with new circumstances, except in cases where the printing had reached an advanced stage.

Would not the hon. and learned Gentleman agree that this advertising is mainly of a valuable educational character, and will he, therefore, pay no attention to his hon. Friend, who is notoriously prejudiced in this matter?

No, I do not think my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) is prejudiced; but I should point out that this particular advertising campaign, as the hon. Member for Cleveland (Mr. Palmer) has suggested, has the idea of educating the public so that they may understand what is going on and have a slightly less prejudiced attitude towards the interference with amenities which has to take place. The great thing is that it should be kept in proportion.

asked the Paymaster-General what is the amount of the estimated useful ironstone deposits in the Cleveland iron-ore field; and for how many years these can be expected to last at the average annual rate of consumption since the last war.

The remaining Cleveland iron-ore deposits are estimated at about 30 million tons. They are comparatively expensive deposits to work, and the annual rate of extraction has fallen from 1·2 million tons immediately after the war to some 600,000 tons over the last three years. Their useful life must depend upon future economic conditions.

Is the hon. Member prepared to say that my constituents who work so hard in those mines can expect useful employment for a good number of years ahead?

I should not like, without notice, to predict what future production trend is to be planned.

asked the Paymaster-General how much additional house coal per annum in relation to the approximate total consumption of 32 million tons per annum, would be required to abolish domestic coal rationing; what part of North American coal imports this year is represented by the tonnage needed to end house-coal rationing; and, having regard to the abundance of small coals of good calorific value available for domestic use in suitable modern appliances, what steps Her Majesty's Government is taking to encourage the use of small coals in such appliances and thus end the house-coal rationing scheme.

Estimates must be speculative, but the extra supplies required from home or overseas sources might be about 1½ to 2 million tons. Imports of American coal so far this year have been just under 2 million tons. As regards the smaller sizes, my hon. Friend will have noticed the Answer given by my right hon. Friend the Paymaster-General on 29th October to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Wembley, South (Mr. Russell).

Does not this rather gloomy and despondent Answer mean that, notwithstanding the manifest benefits of six years of Tory rule, my hon. and learned friend is now proposing a policy of coal rationing for ever?

No, Sir. Most certainly not. It is the intention of my noble Friend to get rid of coal rationing as soon as possible.

Hurry up.

There is no need to be gloomy about these high stocks; they are a very useful start to the winter.

asked the Paymaster-General how much redundancy has occurred in the mining industry as a result of the implementation of the Fleck Report.

I am informed by the National Coal Board that, in general, there has not been any redundancy.

Does the Minister agree that there is a surplus of personnel in the departments with which the Fleck Report dealt? Is he aware that there is a certain amount of empire-building going on in some departments of the National Coal Board?

No, Sir. As I understand it, the National Coal Board has been carrying out the recommendations made by the Fleck Report both as to the reorganisation of some departments and the amplification of others.

asked the Paymaster-General what percentage of surface-mined coal is classified as large coal.

Twenty-four, Sir.

asked the Paymaster-General how he proposes to reduce the abnormal stocks of small coal.

The present level of stocks is largely the result of warm weather and a low rate of increase in industrial activity, which I hope will be temporary. The National Coal Board has launched a new drive to reduce the proportion of small coal in output.

Does the Parliamentary Secretary believe that that reply is a satisfactory solution to the muddle which now prevails in the marketing departments? Does he agree that at present the stocks are 10 million tons in excess of our domestic requirements for the next winter? Is it not possible to dispose of some of this coal overseas?

No, Sir. I certainly do not agree that our stocks are 10 million tons in excess of our requirements for the winter. Indeed, if we have very cold weather, as we had, for example, in 1947, we shall find those stocks very useful indeed.

asked the Paymaster-General how much of the increased output of opencast coal during the current year has been produced from sites in Derbyshire.

About five per cent.

Does the Parliamentary Secretary agree that this county has borne a disproportionate share of inconvenience as a result of opencast mining? In view of the fact that there is now four times as much opencast coal in stock as there was at this time last year, will he lessen the convulsion caused to agriculture in Derbyshire by promising that no more new sites will be opened for production?

It is true that opencast coal mining has taken place in Derbyshire on a large scale for many years, but opencast coal has to be worked where Nature has provided it. I certainly do not think that the output from the Derbyshire sites has been disproportionate. It has, indeed, made an essential contribution to the national economy and has saved us many tons of coal imports.

asked the Paymaster-General whether he will state the deep-mined coal production for the first 45 weeks of 1957, compared with the average production in comparable periods during the five years 1951 to 1955 inclusive; what estimate of total coal imports and exports he has now made for 1957; and what further steps he now proposes to take to relieve the national economy of the damaging effects of continued purchase of United States coal.

The production was 181,300,000 tons compared with 182,700,000 tons. Imports in 1957 are expected to total about 3 million tons and exports about 7 million. No further imports have been authorised beyond existing contracts, and the Coal Board is working out arrangements for meeting the deficiency in future from home supplies.

Does not this show that coal production over the first 45 weeks this year is lower than the average over the first three or four years after the return of a Tory Government? Can he give us an assurance, especially having regard to the poor financial showing of the National Coal Board in the second and third quarters of this year, that he will not allow the National Coal Board to wreck by coal price increases the Government's anti-inflationary policy?

Answering the first part of my hon. Friend's question, I am glad to be able to point out that deep-mined production this year is appreciably higher than in the two previous years. I hope that my hon. Friend will take some comfort in that. Answering the last part of his question, the National Coal Board, far from trying to wreck the Government's anti-inflationary policy, intends to do all it can to help us to do without imports to the greatest possible extent next year, and to that end it hopes to improve the make of large coal.

It is about time the Board did something about it.

asked the Paymaster-General what estimate he has made of the reduction in the rate of rural electrification progress likely to be brought about in the next three years by the electricity supply capital expenditure cuts and the increase in interest rates imposed by the Government.

It is not possible to estimate the effect of the rephasing of capital expenditure until area boards have worked out their future capital investment programmes in detail. It is probable, however, that rural electrification will continue to develop at a relatively high rate although, even without rephasing, it would have slowed down somewhat owing to the inaccessibility of many of the farms not yet connected.

Taking into account the obvious ambiguity of the word "re-phasing", would not the Minister agree that the predictions which some of us made during the passage of the Electricity Act—that the rural electrification programme would be cut back—are being borne out by the events?

No, Sir. I would remind the hon. Member that the progress during the past twelve months, and even during the months since the passing or the Electricity Act, has been very considerable indeed, with a result that the five-year programme announced in 1953 was completed in September.

asked the Paymaster-General if he will give a general direction to the Central Electricity Authority to accelerate the supply of electricity to outlying farms and to horticulturists and householders in remote country districts.

No, Sir. The rural electrification programme is already proceeding as fast as circumstances permit. The objective of providing 70 per cent. of the farms in England and Wales with a mains supply by March, 1958, has already been achieved.

Is not the supply of electricity to a farm or a horticultural holding the equivalent of putting another hand to work? Can there be any better investment to help us in every possible manner?

I fully agree with my hon. Friend's view, and I am happy to be able to tell him that in the area of the North-Western Electricity Board, which includes his constituency, 81 per cent. of the farms have obtained supplies of electricity, compared with a national average of 70 per cent.

Does the Minister realise that there are still many villages in South Wales in which people have been told that there is no prospect of receiving electricity in those villages for at least another fifteen years?

I do not know that that is so, but I know that the South Wales Electricity Board was second in the list of electricity boards for England and Wales in the connection of electricity to farms in the last financial year. It was a very good achievement indeed.

asked the Paymaster-General to what extent, in view of the increasing production of small coal, the further extension of oil firing in power stations is being abandoned.

Two stations under construction will now burn coal instead of oil, and the conversion of a third station from coal to oil is being re-considered. These changes will reduce the estimated consumption of oil by between 1½ and 2 million tons a year, equivalent to about 2½ or 3 million tons of coal.

While thanking the hon. and learned Member for that answer, may I ask whether it would not be wise in the circumstances to drop this conversion programme altogether?

No. I do not think we can drop the conversion programme altogether, because the foundation of it is a number of legally binding contracts entered into between the Central Electricity Authority and the oil companies quite freely on both sides. I do not think that we should so speedily interfere with those contracts.

asked the Paymaster-General whether he will give a general direction to the Central Electricity Authority to dispose of electrical appliances of all types in order to conserve capital and so avoid a cut in rural electrification schemes due to shortage of capital.

No, Sir.

Is my right hon. Friend not aware that it is ridiculous that a body for which he holds Parliamentary responsibility is engaged in defeating the objects of the Chancellor of the Exchequer by inciting citizens to buy consumer goods? Would he not reverse this policy?

This is the first time I have heard it suggested that for a nationalised industry or any other industry to pursue its lawful occasions is inciting people to buy things.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (1) if he will make a statement in respect to the potato situation; and what action is to be taken to obviate a potato shortage in the coming months;

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he is aware that, since the 1957 potato crop is the lowest since the war, it is necessary, in order to avoid a serious shortage, to decide his policy regarding imports at the earliest possible date; and if he will now make a further statement.

I have nothing to add to the reply given to the hon. Member for Brixton (Mr. Lipton) on 18th November.

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us what he is waiting for? Is it not now inevitable that there will be a potato shortage and much higher prices unless imports are allowed at a very early date? Is he aware that potatoes this week were 10s. a cwt. more than potatoes in November, 1956? Does he intend to depend upon rationing, or upon people having to do without potatoes altogether?

Consultations are taking place at this minute with the various interests concerned, and I can assure hon. Members that I shall allow no undue delay to take place directly those consultations have finished and I have the relevant information. I shall then take a decision at the earliest possible moment.

Will the Minister bear in mind that prices of £26 and £27 a ton have already reached a very profitable level and that there is danger that growers will hold up supplies in the hope of still higher prices and thereby create an artificial shortage? Is he aware that if he allows imports now prices will be kept steady, home supplies will continue to flow and we shall avert the troubles which we had in 1955, when we had a retail price of 6d. a lb. and mountains of rotting, unsaleable potatoes?

I am aware of the point which the hon. Member has made. It will be one of the aspects which I shall consider. On the other hand, he will understand that the present price which is guaranteed to producers is not a full guaranteed price in the sense that applies to most of the other commodities but is a support price.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what was the amount of last year's potato crop destroyed or not used; and what was the subsidy paid in respect of those potatoes.

The guarantee payments on the 368,000 tons of potatoes from the 1956 crop for which no market could be found by the Potato Marketing Board amounted to about £4·3 million.

Whilst appreciating the difficulties in connection with potatoes, which no one can deny, will the right hon. Gentleman accept this as a reason for holding an inquiry into the operation of this guarantee?

That is certainly one of the reasons why we are reconsidering the present system. The hon. Gentleman must realise, however, that even when we had State trading—and potatoes were in great demand because there were nothing like so many alternative foodstuffs—in those days considerable quantities of potatoes remained unsold at the end of the season.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, in view of the steep fall in the acreage planted with potatoes in 1957, what changes he proposes to make in the present guarantees, or otherwise, in order to effect an improvement.

As indicated after the last Annual Review, the Government are considering whether any alteration should be made in the system of implementing the guarantee for potatoes. Any such alteration would need to be discussed with the producers' representatives and taken into account for Annual Review purposes.

Is the Minister aware that the drop this year to 810,000 acres—a little more than half the 1946 acreage—is evidence that the present system is unsatisfactory to the farmers, and, equally, that high prices and uncertainty of supplies are disliked by the housewives? Does he not agree that that is evidence of the need for a change in the present system?

After the last Annual Review, we mentioned, as I have said, that we intended to consider whether a better scheme was possible. I do not claim that the present one is perfection, but I do not think that a fall in acreage would, of itself, be surprising or wrong, because consumer demand for potatoes has steadily declined ever since 1948.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the amount of the subsidy on last year's potato crop.

The cost of the guarantee for the 1956 potato crop was about £14·8 million.

Will the Minister set up an inquiry to ascertain why this enormous subsidy had virtually no impact on the retail price? Will he also explain why we are having these violent fluctuations in potato supplies, greater than they were pre-war, in spite of this substantial support that is being given by the taxpayer?

No. I certainly do not think there is any reason to set up an inquiry such as the hon. Gentleman suggests. He will, I am sure, agree that if there were not the present support system, or some other scheme designed to produce the same results, the fluctuations to which the consumer is subject would be far more extreme than they are at present.

Will the right hon. Gentleman expedite the matter to which he has referred and which I raised last week, and give an early decision on the means of implementing this guarantee?

That matter will certainly be considered between now and the Price Review, so that if any change is made it will be effective after the Price Review.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if, in arranging for the importation of potatoes from the Continent to make good the shortfall of the home-grown crop this year, he will keep in touch with the Potato Marketing Board so as to ensure that growers have full information about the quantity and timing of imports and can make their marketing arrangements accordingly.

Yes, Sir. My Department is already discussing with the Potato Marketing Board the arrangements for importing potatoes should imports be necessary.

Will my right hon. Friend take particular care to see that growers have full information about the quantity and timing of imports, because it is most important that home supplies should be marketed regularly to fit in whatever imports are necessary?

I entirely agree with the point my hon. Friend has made, and I can give him an assurance that that will be taken into consideration.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give the housewife also an assurance that we shall not have a repetition of what happened before, when it was only a very high retail price which attracted imports here, and will he see that arrangements are made in good time?

I have given an assurance on that point.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, in view of the increase in the price of potatoes and the likelihood of further pending increases, if he will take measures to introduce price control.

No, Sir.

Is the Minister aware that when price control existed there was no shortage at all, and is he further aware that potatoes are very important to many families, and it is essential to keep them at low prices?

I am aware that when potatoes were rationed there were far fewer alternative foodstuffs available. Secondly, I am aware that the effect of putting on price control without rationing would be to drive potatoes under the counter. What we want to do is to provide an incentive for bigger supplies to become available.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how many separate outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease have been recorded in the last two years; what have been the numbers and value of stock destroyed to prevent further infection; and in how many cases the cause of infection has been established.

As the reply includes a number of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

My right hon. Friend is no doubt aware of the deep anxiety felt in farming circles about the possibility of the virus being imported in chilled or frozen meat. Can he say whether experiments have been going on to see whether there are any methods of killing this virus when it comes in in imported meat?

I share the anxiety to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if his veterinary officers have been able to trace the source of the infection which made it necessary for him to declare the counties of Berkshire, Dorset, Hampshire, the Isle of Wight, and Wiltshire, a controlled area last week; if the movements of all contact animals have now been traced; and when he expects to free this area from control.

No definite conclusion has yet been reached as to the probable cause of the outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease in Hampshire last Monday. All the relevant movements, which numbered more than 2,500 from five markets, were traced by Thursday, 21st November. I hope to be able to remove the controlled area restrictions as from midnight tonight. I should like to take this opportunity to thank farmers, auctioneers, local and market authorities and the police, who have rendered invaluable help.

Does my right hon. Friend realise that all those concerned—and many thousands have been concerned—have been put to a good deal of trouble during recent days, and will he, in order to satisfy their curiosity, pursue his inquiries as to the origin and source of this infection?

I am aware of that. I am sure that my hon. Friend will agree

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what action he is taking to allay the anxiety expressed to him by the Royal Agricultural Society of England, the National Farmers' Union, and the Fatstock Marketing Corporation about the continuance of food-and-mouth disease outbreaks attributed to meat from South America.

Every effort is made to reduce to a minimum the risk of carcase meat infected with the virus of foot-and-mouth disease reaching this country from South America. But the problem is under constant study, and I will gladly examine the proposals which I understand are to be sent to me by the organisations mentioned by my hon. Friend.

Will my right hon. Friend take the opportunity afforded by the presence in this country of the Argentine Minister of Agriculture to discuss with him ways and means by which we, who perhaps lead in research into foot-and-mouth disease, can help the Argentine to develop an effective safeguard by way of vaccination so that animals coming here in the form of frozen and chilled meat are in fact vaccinated and made harmless for carrying disease before they are shipped?

I am hoping to meet the Argentine Minister of Agriculture this week, and this is a question which I hope to have an opportunity of discussing.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what have been the quarterly totals of imported bacon, for the last 12 months, green bacon and cured bacon, separately, with countries of origin, and, for the same periods, the throughput of United Kingdom bacon factories, and actual domestic consumption.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a statement on the future of the meat content of sausages.

As a result of my studies, I foresee practical difficulties in laying down compulsory standards for sausages, but I am not yet ready to take a decision.

How much longer have we to wait? Is not the Minister aware that the best scientific sausage samplers are

As the Answer contains a number of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT. All imported bacon is imported as green bacon.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that many farmers are circulating allegations that green bacon coming in from Poland is cured in our bacon factories and subsequently sold as British bacon?

No, I was not aware of that, and it is a point that I should like to have the chance to look into before replying further.

I realise, as I have said before, that very deep passions are aroused by this subject, but I am myself carrying out some practical research into palatibility. However, research is a long-term matter and I feel the need of extending my present researches for a little longer before finally reaching a conclusion.

But will the Minister try to divest himself of his inability to come to a decision? This, unfortunately, affects other points of agricultural policy, and it is time that he made up his mind about it. The Committee has reported and, out of respect to the Committee, he should come to an early decision.

I would rather not come to a decision than come to the wrong decision, and when hon. Gentlemen opposite were in charge we had so many examples of certainly impetuous and wrong decisions being reached.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will state the progress of the negotiations between the Severn River Board and the British Transport Commission for a scheme to deal with erosion by the River Severn.

Discussions on this difficult problem are still going on, and my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation and I are doing what we can to help those concerned to find a solution.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply, but in view of the very long time that these negotiations have been proceeding, during which time erosion has been proceeding with accumulating severity, can he say how much longer it will be before the farmers in the riparian counties—particularly Worcestershire—hear of some alleviation of the present very unsatisfactory conditions?

As my hon. Friend knows, the difficulty is a division of responsibilities in this matter. There is no direct action that I can take there, but a further meeting is being held within the next few days, and I hope that an agreement is not too far off.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what reply he has made to the protest from the Fish Friers' Association regarding the increasing prices of fish and potatoes.

The Association has been informed that the recent price increases have been due to the scarcity of supplies arising from natural factors and that I do not consider that an inquiry would serve any useful purpose.

Is not the Minister aware that there are satisfactory crops of potatoes on the Continent, particularly of the size and quality most suitable to the chip friers? if the keeping quality of those potatoes is suspect, would he not consider having some brought over now and so averting trouble later on?

I think that in reply to another Question I have indicated the present state of my thoughts on this subject, but I do, once again, give the assurance that I realise that any undue delay would be very unfortunate, and I intend to see that there is none.

Would my right hon. Friend be able to give a statement next week on the potato situation?

I am not sure.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in what circumstances he issued permits for the export of two different consignments of Ayrshire bull cattle semen to Australia without the concurrence or approval of the Ayrshire Cattle Breed Society; and what steps he has taken to ensure that the purchasers of this semen are fully aware that progeny born as a result of this use will not be eligible for pedigree registration.

No permits for the export of bull semen to Australia have been issued since January, 1955.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that this refers to Ayrshire cattle semen and that my information is that two consignments did go and that they caused deep anxiety to all dairy cattle breeding societies in this country, which exist to maintain the quality of British cattle, especially in our export markets?

No. I think that a misunderstanding may possibly have arisen from the fact that it was decided to issue two licences; but, in the result, the exports did not take place.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, in view of the fact that the wholesale price of fish has almost doubled since the control was removed, if he will now take steps to reimpose such control.

No, Sir. On a proper comparison, the evidence does not support the view that the wholesale price of fish has almost doubled.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the very unfair price charged by the wholesalers is having a serious effect upon the prices charged to the general public, and that all this is contributing to the high cost of living?

No, but what I am aware of is that the rise which took place during the preceding two months was due to natural causes—bad weather and the difficulty of getting catches in the distant waters—and I am also aware that as conditions have improved the price has come down substantially in the last week or two.

Is not one reason for the alleged high price of fish that the working fisherman is now at last having a decent standard of living, like the miners, and good luck to them both? Is not fish still one of the cheapest staple foods in this country today?

I certainly would not grudge the fishermen their present earnings or their present standard of living. I think they are doing a good job by the country, and I consider that fish is good value at its present price.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what representations he received prior to 5th November about the repeal of the disciplinary provisions of the Agriculture Act, 1947.

I have had representations of many kinds, some in support of the existing provisions, others favouring substantial amendment and others again urging total repeal.

While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for his evasive reply, may I ask whether he will deny that no responsible body in this country has asked for the removal of these disciplinary powers? In view of the dissatisfaction that the right hon. Gentleman's proposed action is causing, would he give an assurance that he will reconsider his decision?

I am aware that the three farming bodies told me that they would prefer the retention of these powers, but it is my colleague the Secretary of State for Scotland and I who have to bear ultimate responsibility for the fair administration of these powers.

Is the right hon. Gentleman conceding that he is overriding every responsible opinion in the farming industry?

Most certainly not. I also claim that any fear that Part I is going to be undermined is entirely groundless. The passing of the Agriculture Act, 1957, has in fact very greatly strengthened and made more effective Part I of the Agriculture Act, 1947.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what responsible body in the farming industry has asked for the repeal of these powers?

It is the Government's responsibility ultimately. They carry the responsibility, and it is we who have to use our best judgment, as we are responsible for the administration of these powers.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the farmers have been thrown into confusion by the statements which have been made about the Government's future action? Is there any truth in the suggestion that they had consultations with the Country Landowners' Association who supported them in this action, and that the Government are taking this action in favour of the landowners rather than in favour of the farmers?

No, Sir. The Country Landowners' Association was one of the bodies to which I referred and which said that, on balance, it would prefer the retention of these powers.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will now state the terms of reference and composition of the committee of inquiry to examine the present and future structure of the fishing industry as intimated by him to the House on 15th July, 1957.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will now announce the members of the committee of inquiry into the fishing industry and the terms of reference.

I am very glad to say that during the Recess Sir Alexander Fleck, K.B.E., F.R.S., agreed to act as Chairman of the Committee of Inquiry into the Fishing Industry. The other members of the Committee will be:—

• Mr. H. W. Clements, C.B.E.
• Rear-Admiral R. A. Currie, C.B., D.S.C.
• Sir Alister Hardy, F.R.S.
• Sir Graham Larmor.
• Mr. I. W. Macdonald.
• Mr. G. W. Middleton, C.B.E.
• Mr. W. B. Reddaway.

"To assess, in relation to developments in fishing and the marketing of fish, the size and pattern, and implications, of an economic fishing industry in the U.K., and to report."

In view of the right hon. Gentleman's long delay in setting up this Committee, can the House have an assurance that the Committee will get to work immediately and endeavour to expedite its report? Secondly, in view of the right hon. Gentleman's own statement about the peculiar position of the industry in Scotland, may we have an assurance that special attention will be given to that problem, as distinct from the rest of the country?

As to the first part of the supplementary, I do not think there has been any undue delay in setting up an inquiry of this importance. The decision in principle to have an inquiry was announced, I believe, in July. I have no doubt that the Committee will start its investigations at a very early moment.

In view of the fresh responsibilities undertaken by Sir Alexander Fleck, I take it at the Prime Minister's request, on the Windscale inquiry, will that mean that there will be delay over that inquiry, or will it interfere with the work of this Committee?

No, I am glad to say that it will not do so. The Windscale inquiry is a short-term one and it will not interfere at all with this longer-term inquiry getting to work and immediately getting down to business.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Sir Alexander Fleck has got a number of things on his plate, and is he satisfied that Sir Alexander, with all his ability, can give urgent and proper attention to this inquiry? Is the right hon. Gentleman further aware that since the debate took place in the House quite a number of vessels have been sold off down south? It may be that before the inquiry is finished there will be no industry to inquire into in Scotland if it is allowed to wither away without a decision being taken. Will the right hon. Gentleman see that urgency is given to the inquiry?

As to the first part of the supplementary, Sir Alexander Fleck has many responsibilities, but he is not a person who is likely to skimp any fresh responsibilities that he undertakes. On the contrary, I am of opinion that we are extremely lucky to have secured his services as chairman of this important inquiry.

Can my right hon. Friend say what members of that Committee have any practical knowledge of the fishing industry?

The main object of this inquiry is to find people who are independent of the industry itself and so will be able to consider objectively the evidence that will be given to them from all sections and branches of the industry.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he is satisfied with the operation of the experimental scheme for the supply of cheap cartridges for pest destruction which has been tried out in Dorset; and whether he will now arrange for cheap cartridges to be supplied in Dorset on the same basis as in other counties.

The special arrangements which have been in operation in Dorset are being reviewed, and I will let my hon. Friend know the outcome.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he is aware of the continued fall in the world prices of almost all types of food commodities, and that the cost of food imports is falling rapidly; and what action he proposes to take, by price control or otherwise, to ensure that these falling prices are passed on to the consumer by lower retail prices of all types of food, in view of the fact that the latest monthly cost-of-living index figure shows a rise of one point.

The prices of many imported foods have fallen during this year. Although the landed cost of imported food is only £1,300 million, out of a total expenditure in the shops of £4,400 million on all foods, a number of food items in the Retail Prices Index have moved down during the last few months. I am satisfied that the forces of competition will ensure that reductions in import prices are translated into appropriate retail price changes.

May I take it from the figures the Minister has given that there has been a reduction of about 25 per cent.? If that is the case, can he tell me of any commodity which has dropped by 25 per cent. in the retail shops? While it is true, as the Minister says, that some may have dropped, does he not agree that there is no reflection whatsoever of the figures he has given in retail costs in the shops at the moment?

No; the hon. Gentleman will be aware that the imported price does not make up the whole of the retail price.

That does not allow for 25 per cent.

Costs representing processing, transport, retailing and delivery have to be allowed for, too.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say in plain terms what the effect would have been on the cost-of-living index if this decrease had reflected itself in that index?

No. The reduction, incidentally, has not yet been a big one—about 5 per cent. only in the last few months, the index of imported food prices in the first half of the year having shown an actual increase. The reduction is only beginning now to be effective. The point I was making was that the imported cost is only part of the final cost of the retail food as sold in this country. Therefore, I would not expect a reduction or an increase as a percentage to be fully reflected in the retail price.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what were the imports of oranges, exclusive of clementines, mandarines and tangerines, in the past 12 months as compared with the previous two years.

There were 330,653 tons of oranges imported in the 12 months October, 1956—September, 1957, valued at £20,389,000. The comparable figures for 1954–55 were 362,674 tons and £18,474,367 and for 1955–56 341,190 tons and £18,006,473.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for the figures he has given. Has he any explanation of why the import of oranges is falling or has fallen in this last year? Further, is he aware that it is possible to judge the prosperity of a country by the amount of citrus fruits it consumes, as well as to estimate how it will help itself to avert ill-health?

I think that the only two pieces of information I can give the hon. Gentleman straight away are these. Spanish supplies were seriously interfered with by serious frost in Spain last year, and the somewhat smaller supplies available have been, therefore, more eagerly competed for among some of the countries of Western Europe. The supplies seem to have gone there at prices somewhat higher than the consumer is willing to pay in this country.

asked the Minister of Supply if he will make a statement on the progress being made by the Gardner Committee in overcoming the engine icing troubles of the Britannia long-range turbo-prop airliners.

Yes, Sir. The Britannia aircraft, while it has satisfied all the icing tests laid down by the Air Registration Board, has encountered since May last an unusual and previously unsuspected set of icing conditions in which dry ice and wet ice are found together. There is now good ground for believing that the resulting problem will be overcome by a device involving the concentration of jets of air on certain critical points in the engine intake. Ground tests of this device have given very promising results and flight tests in tropical icing conditions are about to start. The device is a simple one; it can be readily applied to existing engines and all engines coming off the production line from early in the New Year will be equipped with it. The flight tests about to begin will also cover other possible solutions of the problem.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the House is very glad to have this reassurance in the matter, since it is generally appreciated that the Britannia is potentially a superlative aircraft? Bearing in mind, however, that it has cost £18 million of public money already, and there will be a loss to B.O.A.C. of about £2 million this year, does he not feel that the delay has been a source of considerable disappointment?

I am glad to hear the hon. Gentleman express his belief that this aircraft has a future. I agree with him. I cannot really accept that there has been any delay. As I said in my answer, the trouble was discovered only in May and everything has been done since to find a solution. I think that we have found it.

asked the Minister of Supply the present extent of Government financial interest in the aircraft firm of Short Brothers and Harland; to what extent he was consulted over the recent changes in managerial direction; what is his future policy with regard to this firm; and if he will make a statement.

The Government hold 1,640,000 fully paid up El hares in Short Brothers and Harland, Limited. I was consulted over the recent managerial changes to the full extent necessary. No change in policy is contemplated.

Does the Minister not realise that not only in this firm but in the industry as a whole there is great uncertainty among all classes of employees? Although the Parliamentary Secretary was unable to give any indication last week of the forward thinking of his Department concerning the development of the industry, surely the Minister should have a plan for the future of the firm, or is it simply to be a subsidiary engaged in sub-contracting for the Bristol Company?

I fail to see that that has any connection with the original Question, which concerned managerial changes in Short Brothers and Harland. For the rest, the purpose of the managerial changes was to unite the effort of Short's and Bristol's in bringing about the successful launching of the Britannia aircraft, on which both companies are dependent.

asked the Minister of Supply if he is aware that a considerable number of workers in the three factories operated by Messrs. Short Brothers and Harland in Northern Ireland have been discharged recently, and that there is the prospect of a further considerable cut in the near future owing to restrictions on spending as a result of the White Paper on Defence; and, in view of the present unemployment situation in Northern Ireland, if he is willing to receive a deputation of representatives of the trade unions and hear views on the situation.

Yes, Sir. I shall be glad to receive a deputation.

In thanking my right hon. Friend for agreeing to receive the deputation, may I ask him to bear in mind that time is the essence of the contract if the services of these skilled technicians and draughtsmen, many of whom possess degrees, are not to be lost to this country? Is he aware that 168 who have already been paid off and others who may be paid off in the near future have already made application for jobs with Canadian and American firms who are advertising in this country? Does my right hon. Friend not consider it would be very wrong that the skills of these highly-trained men should go to another country?

I accept that the possible loss of technicians is a problem, but this is part of the larger problem of industry generally for Northern Ireland. The Minister of Commerce for Northern Ireland and I will be very pleased to discuss this aspect with the deputation.

Is the Minister aware that when we transferred Short's to Northern Ireland, it was with the object of building up a fully-equipped design staff? If that design staff is allowed to dissipate back into this country, all the capital expenditure on this magnificent factory and the whole purpose of taking Short's to Northern Ireland will have been frustrated? This would be a great disaster for one of the best factories in the country.

I appreciate that, but as I hinted earlier in answer to another supplementary question, the essence of the problem is the successful launching of the Britannia aircraft; and on that all our efforts are concentrated.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the closing down of Short's Altona Works, near Lisburn and their Ballyclare factory has a grave effect on employment in these areas? Will he do everything in his power to help in this situation?

Certainly, Sir. I will be very pleased to discuss this aspect with the deputation when it comes.

asked the Minister of Supply what opportunities are open to the Controller of Ordnance Factories to tender for contracts for Royal Ordnance factories.

The Controller of Royal Ordnance Factories is free to tender for any defence stores his factories are equipped to produce. In addition, he may seek civil work where this is needed to keep essential defence capacity in being or to relieve a shortage of civil supplies.

Will the Minister give the assurance that when Royal Ordnance factories such as Woolwich Arsenal are under-employed and can tender at a cheaper rate than private firms for private contract, he will encourage them to do so?

My answer indicated that the tendering for civil work is encouraged, subject to our ability to satisfy the criteria I laid down. The aspect of the question which, I think, the hon. Member tends to ignore is that reserve capacity must be held in being for defence purposes. It cannot be turned over fully to civil purposes, because its withdrawal to defence work is utterly impractical.

asked the Minister of Supply if he is aware of the growing concern of the trade unions and Scottish Council for Industry about the increase in unemployment likely to arise following the closure of Royal Ordnance factories in Scotland; and whether he will make a statement about the future of these factories.

Yes, Sir. I announced last July that two Scottish factories would eventually cease to be needed as Royal Ordnance factories. I was anxious that the notice of closure should be as long as possible so that we should have time to interest industry in the factories and so reduce the risk of unemployment. The Royal Ordnance factory at Dalmuir is to be acquired by Babcock and Wilcox, Limited, and meanwhile it is the company's stated intention, as defence work runs down, to put its own work into the factory in order to avoid a break in activity. My right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade and I, in consultation with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland, will do our best to find a satisfactory solution in the case of the Irvine factory also.

Will the Minister bear in mind that the closure of the factories in Scotland is quite disproportionate to what is taking place in the rest of the country, in that 3,000 of the national total of 7,000 workers who will become unemployed are in Scotland? Will he direct his mind to the retention of these factories in public ownership and arrange with other Government Departments for them to make and manufacture equipment for the nationalised industries?

I cannot accept any imputation of unfairness to Scotland. The problem of which factories are to be retained and which closed down is primarily a technical problem. I agree that, where possible, technical considerations should be tempered by other considerations. They were, in fact, taken into account in this instance, but the closure of these two factories was in the circumstances unavoidable.

asked the Minister of Health how far it is intended to extend the experiments of fluoride in drinking water.

No further demonstrations on the lines of those now proceeding are contemplated, but my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and I will, in due course, consider what arrangements are desirable for extending fluoridation to other areas where the water is deficient in fluoride.

Has there been general acceptance of these experiments? Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that when I last raised this matter I received a postcard stating that I was a secret mass poisoner probably in the pay of the I.C.I.?

I am sorry that anybody should make those imputations against my hon. and gallant Friend. The work which is taking place is not precisely experiments but is rather in the nature of demonstrations or studies, which certainly are serving a very useful purpose.

What is the measure of success of fluoridation?

The right hon. Lady will be familiar with the experimental work previously carried out in the United States of America. From that, it appears that the fluoridation of water can reduce dental caries by up to 60 per cent.

Do the reports the Minister has had indicate that it has been successful in this country?

The four studies to which I referred are still continuing under the supervision of technical officers of the Ministry of Housing and Local Government. The general trend of our information is not dissimilar from that to which I have referred.

asked the Minister of Health when the building of the proposed extension of Poole General Hospital is to begin.

It is hoped to start work on the first stage in October, 1958.

Will my right hon. and learned Friend ensure that there is no further postponement of this matter, since the need in the area is very great, as, I think, my right hon. and learned Friend realises and as his predecessor before him realised?

I do not think there is any question of postponement. We are now awaiting the submission by the regional hospital board of working drawings and bills of quantities which are required before the work goes out to tender.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that it is the practice of certain mental hospitals, when obtaining the consent of patients or relatives for electro-convulsant therapy treatment, to warn them of the risk of fractures; and if he will recommend that this practice be universally adopted.

I have nothing to add to the Answer I gave to my hon. Friend on 12th November.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend not agree that it is much more satisfactory to have some warning on a general basis when consent is given rather than to rely on individual warnings, which on occasion are inevitably overlooked, thereby creating resentment and, on occasion, loss of confidence in the hospital in question?

I hardly think so, because these are inevitably rather technical questions which have to be dealt with in the light of the individual case by the doctor in charge. My hon. Friend can, however, be assured that it is the usual practice for patients or their relatives to be warned of the relevant risk.

Will the Minister make it clear that, owing to improvements in modern techniques, the risk of fracture is much less than it used to be and this treatment is very effective?

Certainly I am glad to endorse what the hon. Member says, that the risk of fractures is considerably reduced by modern techniques, including the use of relaxants.