asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether, in an effort to bring down the cost of living in so far as food is concerned, he will initiate an inquiry into the profits of middlemen, commencing with vegetables.

The Committee on Horticultural Marketing, whose Report was published last January as Cmnd. 61, examined the profits of middlemen and came to the conclusion that,

"The costs of distribution, having regard to the services performed, are not excessive; and the profits of distributors, compared with those in other trades are not high."

My right hon. Friend sees no purpose, in initiating a further inquiry.

Is the Minister aware that that information is completely at variance with the majority of opinion in the country, and, I should have thought, with opinion on both sides of the House? Would it not be feasible to have an inquiry into the costs of distribution with a view, for example, to cutting out the very heavy transport charges which are certainly prevalent in the distribution of vegetables?

The Runciman Committee went into this matter most carefully and published a full Report on these things. The Committee pointed out some of the difficulties inherent in the vegetable trade, and I really would commend to the hon. Lady what that Committee said.

The Parliamentary Secretary should be aware that the Runciman Committee made certain recommendations. Can he say when we are to have some action by the Government on those recommendations?

My right hon. Friend made an interim statement on proposals with regard to that. I hope that we shall be able to say something more before very long.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he is aware that traces of arsenic were found recently in potatoes on sale in Coventry, and that this has engendered disquiet in the city; and if he will make a statement upon his Department's regulations covering the use of arsenite spray on potato plants prior to picking.

Yes, Sir. But my right hon. Friend is informed that the quantities revealed by analysis were well within the limits recommended by the Metallic Contamination Sub-Committee of the Food Standards Committee. The Regulations under the Agriculture (Poisonous Substances) Act, 1952, follow the recommendations of the Advisory Committee on Poisonous Substances in Agriculture and Food Storage.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that, in so far as Coventry is concerned, the chief public health officer and the city analyst have expressed strong views about this matter? Is he further aware that they feel that the use of this spray involves an unnecessary public health problem for sprayers, consumers and potato pickers, who often take children into the fields with them? Is the Parliamentary Secretary also aware that this Question was put down purely for the purpose of eliciting information, and could he make any comment on it?

As far as consumers are concerned, I think that the position is perfectly satisfactory in that the quantities involved are very small indeed, though I agree that it is a matter to which we must pay careful attention. As regards those who work in these conditions, there are, of course, certain regulations in regard to workers having to wear protective clothing at the time and immediately after the sprayers are used.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what proportion of the national potato crop is sprayed with arsenic what proportion of this is tested before sale to the public; and whether any potatoes have been destroyed because of their arsenic content.

There are no official statistics of the area of potatoes sprayed with arsenical compounds, but it is thought that about one eighth of the crop is treated in this way. The examination of the foodstuffs offered for sale to the public is the responsibility of food and drug authorities, and no evidence of excessive arsenical contamination has come to my right hon. Friend's notice.

Would the Minister comment on the suggestion which has been sent to me that sulphuric acid should be used as an alternative? Is it correct to say that up to the present sulphuric acid has proved satisfactory and less dangerous to all concerned—[HON. MEMBERS: "No"]—in spite of the disbelief on the part of some of my colleagues?

Sulphuric acid is certainly used and is very good in many circumstances, but it is also a most dangerous acid and has to be used subject to all sorts of restrictions. I am not sure which is the worse of the two.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what conclusions he has reached about the quantity of dairy produce used in the manufacture of ice cream; and whether any steps have been taken to increase the quantity.

A report from the Food Standards Committee on ice-cream standards is being published later this week. My right hon. Friend will need to consider the views of the interests concerned before reaching any conclusions about its recommendations. I understand that the Milk Marketing Board has recently made arrangements to supply liquid milk to ice-cream manufacturers at special rates. This should encourage the use of more milk.

As the Minister said in May that he was in consultation with the Food Standards Committee, could the Parliamentary Secretary say why it has taken over six months before he has any sort of reply to make and, even now, he has only reached the stage of starting to think about it?

It is perhaps a matter which requires a considerable amount of thought on the part of the Food Standards Committee, but we have only just received the Report. When it has been published and when the right hon. Gentleman has the opportunity of seeing it, perhaps he will consider the point further.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how much was paid during the last twelve months under the cartridge rebate scheme; and whether he will economise on this item.

About £42,000. In view of the serious damage caused by wood pigeons, my right hon. Friend would not feel justified in reducing the rebate at the present time, but the scheme will be reviewed at the close of the shooting season.

Does not the Minister think there is something unsatisfactory in these days of stringency that the taxpayer should be asked to subsidise what is very largely a type of sport? Would it not be just as illogical to ask a taxpayer to provide red coats for foxhunters?

I do not propose to comment on the second part of that supplementary question. As regards the first part, wood pigeons are a serious menace and are very difficult indeed to deal with, and until we can find some alternative method we really must try to deal with them in this way.

Would the Minister bear in mind that the wood pigeon is a serious pest and that the money spent is a good investment?

How many wood pigeons are being shot?

asked the Minister of Agriculture. Fisheries and Food what progress he has made in his examination of the working of the Fertilisers and Feeding Stuffs Act, 1926.

The examination is still proceeding. I do not expect that it will be concluded for some time yet.

Would the Parliamentary Secretary try to expedite this examination? After all, before the war the enforcing authorities thought that the Act was inadequate. The hon. Gentleman's right hon. Friend has said that the Act is probably inadequate, and in those circumstances would he not try to get ahead and get something done?

Yes, Sir, but I am afraid that the views so far expressed have revealed a rather wide measure of disagreement, and so it is taking time. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that we want to press On.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (1) how many farmers in the county of Cumberland have not yet received outstanding payments for grant-aided schemes;

(2) what is the sum of money outstanding to Cumberland farmers due to the delay in payment of statutory subsidies.

On 12th November, there were, in the Carlisle divisional office. 1,284 unsettled claims for grant from Cumberland farmers amounting to £110,250. In many cases inspection of work or livestock is necessary before grant can be paid. I am afraid that it is not practicable to calculate the sums outstanding to Cumberland farmers for subsidies which are paid from headquarters. I am not aware that there is any avoidable or unreasonable delay in making payment.

Is the Minister aware that it is felt that the delay is too long and that hardship is created by it? Will he try to expedite this matter by consulting further with his local representative?

Yes, Sir, if we can find any evidence, and if the hon. Gentleman has any particular cases in mind. I shall be glad to look into them.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what have been the results of his consultations with the Minister of Education to increase the numbers of technical courses for agricultural students.

My right hon. Friend the Minister of Education and my right hon. Friend are awaiting the report of the committee which is reviewing the agricultural education provided by local education authorities under the chairmanship of Lord De La Warr.

Will the Minister give an assurance that there will be no delay after the report is published, because in some areas there are inadequate facilities for technical courses for agricultural students, and already in some county areas students have to go outside at their own expense, which again causes considerable hardship?

Yes, Sir, but on the other hand there are vacancies in many places which we are unable to fill. It is because of these various problems that the committee was set up, and when we get its report we will look at this.

But the hon. Gentleman must realise that in some county areas there are no places for certain courses.

Yes, Sir, I am fully aware of that.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when the next Annual Report of the National Food Survey Committee will be published.

In May next, to cover the year 1956. In the meantime, the principal statistical information up to and including the second quarter of 1957 will have appeared in the Government publication Economic Trends.

Is the Minister aware that the last published Survey puts the weekly expenditure on meat of all kinds at 7s. a person? Would he say whether he accepts that estimate of 28s. for a family of four, or does he prefer the estimate of 10s. per week for a family given by his wife in a newspaper article? If he accepts the official estimate, would he not exercise such influence as he possesses to prevent the publication of these absurd statements, which very much annoy housewives?

I am not responsible for any highly-coloured statements that may occur in the popular Press.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what steps the White Fish Authority has taken to see that Brighton fishermen, and other fishermen of the south coast, can continue to market their fish after the closing of the Brighton Fish Market on 28th December; and what has been the report of their representative who visited Brighton on 21st November.

Following the visit of their representative on 21st November, the Authority has expressed to Brighton Corporation its concern at the proposed closing of the wholesale fish market there and its willingness to give any assistance possible. The Authority has no powers, however, to provide market facilities itself.

Would my right hon. Friend realise that these fishermen have used that fish market for just under 100 years and, before that, were using the same place since the days of the Prince Regent, and that they are to be pushed out on 28th December? Does he not think that his Ministry can at least exercise some influence to bring about a round-table conference or talk in the next few days?

The Authority has been down and has been in touch with the local authority in Brighton about this matter, and it hopes that as a result of the meeting the Corporation may reconsider its decision.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how many applications for improvement grants under the Agriculture Act, 1957, have been received in North Devon; and how many have been approved.

I regret that figures for North Devon alone cannot be supplied without an undue amount of labour. I am, however, circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT a summary of the position regarding applications in the county as a whole.

Is my hon. Friend satisfied with the figures for Devon as a whole, and do they compare favourably with those in other parts of the country?

Devon has had a very high percentage of applications—higher than anywhere else in the country—and this has caused some delay in considering them.

Can the hon. Gentleman say how many of these schemes have been approved and on which physical work has started?

Is the right hon. Gentleman referring to Devon?

Yes, Sir.

As I have said, the figures are rather detailed and will be in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what progress has been made to date in the new scheme under the 1957 Act for the provision of farm modernisation grants.

Up to the end of October, nearly 15,000 applications had been made in England and Wales covering work estimated to cost almost £9 million. Nearly 60 per cent. of the cases had been inspected and 1,403 had been approved at an estimated cost of £1,149,000. 1,387 applications had been rejected or withdrawn. 2,700 proposals are ready for approval on production of satisfactory plans, specifications or tenders.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what proposals the Severn River Board has submitted to him, as a result of complaints received by the Strine Internal Drainage Board, to improve productive farmland in the areas of Lilleshall, Donnington, Newport, Crudgington and Longdon-on-Tern.

None, Sir.

I thank the Parliamentary Secretary for that reply, but will he bear in mind that there are farmers in the area who are not satisfied with the work of the Strine Internal Drainage Board? In view of his reply, I beg leave to give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in what percentage of primary outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease during the last three years infection has been attributed to imported meat; and in what percentage of these outbreaks has the infection been traced through bones.

Fifty-six per cent. of primary outbreaks since 1st January, 1955, are attributed to imported meat and wrappers and 30 per cent. of these to bones.

Would my hon. Friend not agree, therefore, that there are some grounds for the plea that meat coming in from areas known to be infected—if not continuously, at any rate from time to time—should be imported without the bone?

That is a point which has been considered on a number of occasions, but it involves real difficulties. My right hon. Friend had the opportunity of discussing some of the related problems with the Argentine Minister when he was in this country last week.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to what extent, when tests are made to classify the different types of foot-and-mouth disease virus found in imported meat, a record is kept of the country of origin; and what proportion of the recent samples carrying the South American type of virus came from each of the South American countries.

Tests such as my hon. Friend refers to are not made, and my right hon. Friend is advised that they would not serve any useful purpose, since all types of foot-and-mouth disease virus occur both in South America and in Europe.

Can I take it from my hon. Friend's Answer that some of the virus infection attributed to South American meat might come not from South America but possibly from Europe?

The same type of virus is common in many cases, but, of course, that is not the only reason on which there is based the belief that a particular meat which has caused infection has come from South America.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what organisations made representations to him urging the total repeal of the disciplinary provisions of the Agriculture Act, 1947.

Representations against dispossession have been received from the Farmers' and Smallholders' Association. The recommendations of the Franks Report, which have an important bearing on the Government's decision to repeal the powers in question, were, of course, concerned with procedures and not powers: but the Wilson Committee, in April, 1956, said, "It would be unrealistic not to mention the growth of a body of public opinion very hostile to the use of disciplinary powers by the State".

Does not the Parliamentary Secretary recognise that this is a thoroughly evasive reply, and that in view of the views of the Country Landowners' Association, the National Farmers' Union and the trade unions catering for agricultural workers, he should announce the intention of the Government to repeal this Part of the 1947 Act and cease causing dismay and despondency throughout the whole of the industry?

I cannot accept that the reply is evasive. Last week my right hon. Friend gave the hon. Gentleman the information in relation to the three main organisations. I have not sought to evade that in any way. As regards the legislation, there are real practical problems involved here. The Franks Report has certainly brought it to a head, and it was for this reason that we had to take action.

Are not the Government principally moved by the widespread disquiet at the use of these powers, as evidenced by the speech of Lord Justice Denning in another place last week?

Yes, Sir, I think I can say that this speech was evidence of the general tone of public opinion in many parts of this country in relation to those disciplinary powers, of which we have had to take note.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that the association to which he has referred, which has opposed the continuation of Part II of the Agriculture Act, consists of fewer than 1,000 members, while the National Farmers' Union, which has well over 200,000 members, prefers that Part II should continue? Why does he or his right hon. Friend take notice of an obscure little organisation which represents practically no one?

I did not say that we were taking notice of it. I should not have mentioned the organisation but for a direct question asked on that point. We have taken this decision on the Government's own initiative, and we rest on the Government's initiative. In the main, the criticism of the National Farmers' Union arises because it feels that Part II is related to Part I and it has not realised the full significance of the 1957 Act, which has strengthened and improved the previous Measure.

Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that, both in correspondence with his right hon. Friend and in evidence given to the Franks Committee, the National Farmers' Union, representing more than 200,000 members, was utterly opposed to the removal of Part II of the 1947 Act?

I would not accept that the National Farmers' Union was utterly opposed to it. It has a right to give the reason why it has felt doubtful about it. It is because we have changed the position by putting the 1957 Act on the Statute Book that the whole situation has changed.

rose—

I presume that this matter will require legislation and that there will be a Bill later on. I think we might discuss the matter then.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he is aware that the 60-mile limit of travel from the port of entry of cattle exported from the United Kingdom is causing hardship, especially to many small farmers; and what steps he will take to alleviate this.

While it is estimated that the numbers of cattle for slaughter being exported at present are lower than they were this time last year, the average domestic prices realised for steers and heifers this year have been higher than those in the corresponding periods last year. The home prices of cows tend to fall at this season, but are much the sane this year as they were last.

Is there any consistency whatever in a rule like this, because cattle often have to travel more than 60 miles in this country? Cattle which are travelling must be watered at least every twelve hours. Surely it ought to be possible to arrange for that to be done on the Continent.

The Balfour Committee went into the matter very thoroughly, and it was largely as a result of its recommendations that these restrictions were imposed. We have tried to deal with the position fairly from the point of view of both the cruelty aspect and the position of home farmers, and I hope that in some respects we have succeeded.

Can my hon. Friend say whether the Continental countries are observing the regulation?

Yes, Sir; I think I can say that, certainly in respect of the countries which are receiving imports at present—Holland and Western Germany.

Owing to the importance of this subject, I give notice that I shall raise it on the Adjournment as quickly as possible.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food which are the associations he is consulting in connection with land drainage; how far substantial progress has been made towards agreement to secure improvements in land drainage; and when he expects to be able to introduce legislation clearly establishing responsibility in this field.

Consultations are proceeding with the River Boards' Association, the Association of Drainage Authorities, the National Farmers' Union, and the Country Landowners' Association, but the task of securing agreement on workable proposals is far from easy and is bound to take some time.

Will not the Minister eventually have to make up his own mind about this? Surely since 1951 there has been ample time for the Department to do so.

I accept that there is need to get on with this matter, and I am sorry that we have not made more progress so far. However, we have just been accused of making up our minds in another matter, and hon. Members cannot have it both ways.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he is aware that the wholesale price of English Cheddar cheese has dropped since November, 1956, from 280s. to 135s. per cwt. without any corresponding fall in retail prices, and that home cheese output has nearly doubled in the last two years and Commonwealth producers are selling in this country at 33 per cent. below c.i.f. cost; what directions he has given to the Milk Marketing Board regarding the sale of cheese produced from surplus milk; and what steps he proposes to take, by price control or otherwise, to ensure that the present plentiful supplies are reflected in much lower prices in the shops.

Though no official retail prices for cheese are available, my right hon. Friend's information shows that the retail price of English cheddar cheese has reflected the fall in the wholesale price. He has no powers to give directions on these matters to the Milk Marketing Board.

Is the Minister satisfied that we have reached saturation point and the lowest retail prices in respect of cheese supplies? If so, will he tell us what he proposes to do about surplus milk? Is he aware that Dominion producers are already saying that they cannot sell their dairy products here and, thus, cannot buy our manufactures? Is it not time the Minister told us exactly what he is going to do about milk supplies here and whether, if necessary, he will propose a quantitative restriction on imports so that there may be some sensible arrangement?

The question about milk is primarily a matter for the Milk Marketing Board. With regard to cheese, I would not accept that we have reached saturation point. I hope that the steps which have been adopted and others which may be taken to popularise cheese will give better results.

Does the hon. Gentleman realise the importance of promoting the consumption of dairy products? Does he realise that to lower retail prices is the best method of doing it?

I realise absolutely the importance of encouraging the consumption of dairy products, and particularly of English cheese, and I hope that hon. Members themselves will set an example in that respect, for I think that that is the most effective way to do it.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he is aware that the wholesale price of English (No. 1) smoked bacon was 304s. per cwt. in September, 1957, 270s. per cwt. in October and early November and 302s. on 22nd November, and that meanwhile official retail bacon prices, with one minor exception, remained unchanged throughout the period of lower wholesale prices but rose by 4d. per lb. on 22nd November; and if, in view of this anomalous rise, he will reconsider his decision not to impose price control.

There are no official retail bacon prices, but, in a large number of shops covered by information available to my right hon. Friend, retail prices have generally reflected changes in wholesale prices. Increases as a result of the last increase in wholesale prices have been much less than the hon. Member suggests. The second part of the Question does not, therefore, arise.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the prices given in the Question are quoted from the Grocer? Has he not missed the point of the Question, namely, that when wholesale prices went up again in November, retail prices jumped by 4d. per lb? Will he, therefore, take steps to ensure that when supplies are plentiful, as they are now, that will be reflected in lower prices in the shops, because it is of great importance to the nation that we should have lower food prices now, in line with what the Chancellor of the Exchequer has been saying?

I realise that the figures used by the hon. Gentleman came from the Grocer. They are figures produced by one wholesaler, and they are based on a percentage increase on wholesale prices. However, the retail prices of some of the main multiple retailers show a very different picture indeed, there being substantial reductions over the period. They have received a little more, but have certainly not reached the price level in November to which the hon. Gentleman referred.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how many grants, and of what total amount, have been made to farmers and horticulturists to help them to obtain electricity; and if he will consult with the Central Electricity Authority with the object of initiating a scheme whereby those farmers, whose supply of electricity has been delayed for economic reasons, may be helped by judicious use of the grant money to accelerate their supply.

Under the Hill Farming and Livestock Rearing Acts, up to 30th September last, schemes approved for farmers and landowners in England and Wales included work for the supply of electricity estimated to cost over £1 million, but the number and amount of grants actually made for the purpose is not separately available. Under the Agriculture Act, 1957, up to 31st October last, proposals from landowners and farmers (including horticulturists) in England and Wales had been approved to the number of 160, estimated to cost more than £46,000, but no grant had yet been paid. I regret that statistics are not available separately of the grants to farmers and horticulturists as distinct from landlords. Grants under these schemes may be made to assist in connecting individual farms with main electricity supplies, but there is no power to make grants to electricity boards in respect of the extension of main transmission lines.

Is my hon. Friend aware that I was suggesting not that his Department should make grants to the Central Electricity Authority but that some cooperation should be arranged between the Central Electricity Authority and his Department, which has this money available, to ensure that farmers in small enclaves who have waited a long time for electricity get it very quickly?

I should like to look into that matter further to see whether there is anything more we can do in that direction. We try to be as helpful as we can.

I thank my hon. Friend for his answer.

Does not the progress made by the Central Electricity Authority in this matter completely outshine anything that was done by private enterprise when it was responsible for the supply of electricity?

Without going into the merits of the nationalised electricity industry or private enterprise, I would say that a substantial advance has been made in recent years.

asked the Minister of Agriculture. Fisheries and Food whether, on the basis of figures available to him from his representatives in the Food and Agriculture Organisation and the Organisation for European Economic Co-operation, he will state, for the last three years, the grower's price and, where applicable, the f.o.b. export price of wheat produced in Belgium. France, Federal Germany, Sweden, Turkey, and the United

As the reply contains a number of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Will not my hon. Friend agree that the trend of these figures will show, first, that the export prices of foreign wheat are frequently below cost of production; secondly, that foreign wheat growers tend to receive a higher return in their own country than is the case with British wheat growers; and, thirdly, that British wheat growing is extremely efficient and economic?

Yes, Sir. By and large the figures bear out the points my hon. Friend has made. In some respects they are quite startling.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what figure was disclosed as the average weekly household expenditure on fruit in Great Britain in 1955 by the recent inquiry by the National Food Survey Committee.

Three shillings on fresh and quick frozen fruit, and in addition 3s. 5d. on fresh tomatoes, canned and dried fruit, nuts and fruit juices.

Is the hon. Member aware that those figures show that the consumption of fruit in this country is lower than it was pre-war, and that the statistics of the Food and Agriculture Organisation for the years 1953–1956 show that only two countries in Europe are consuming less fruit per head than we are? Is that not a regrettable state of affairs? What does the hon. Gentleman's Department propose to do to remedy the situation?

Oh, no. The only fruit consumption which is less than before the war is that of citrus fruit, for which public demand is less. For the other types of fruit, there has been a substantial increase in consumption.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what directions he has given to the Sugar Board in view of the recent increased price negotiated for Commonwealth sugar.

None, Sir.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that, while awaiting some pronouncement from the Sugar Board, manufacturers have imposed on the trade an allocation system which is gravely interfering with the working of the trade, and that some retailers have had their supplies cut by as much as 40 per cent. and cannot possibly handle the Christmas trade until there is some clarification of the position, which cannot happen until the announcement by the Board is made? Will the Minister therefore urge the Board to make some announcement on the subject in a matter of days?

It would not be proper for us to "urge" the Board. It is for the Sugar Board itself to decide when and on what matters within its statutory duties it feels bound to advise my right hon. Friend on any action. We cannot intervene.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he has yet received any advice from the Sugar Board regarding the effects of the increased price to be paid for Commonwealth sugar.

No, Sir.

In view of the supplementary question of my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, North (Mr. MacDermot) about supplies of sugar and the effect of speculation on price increases, will the Joint Parliamentary Secretary curry favour with the Chancellor of the Exchequer by announcing that there will be no grounds for increasing the retail price of sugar?

I should like to think out the implications of that. I am not sure what the position is, but the hon. Member will realise the problems involving the Sugar Act, 1956, which we have to observe most carefully.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he is satisfied that farmers are not hoarding potatoes in anticipation of further price increases; and whether he is yet able to announce his decision upon the permitted importation of potatoes.

In answer to the first part of the hon. Member's Question, I have no reason to think that farmers are hoarding potatoes. As to the second part, after considering all the circumstances and after consulting the representatives of producers and the distributive trades, the Government have reached the conclusion that home-produced supplies of potatoes are not likely to be sufficient to meet all requirements at reasonable prices until the 1958 early potato crop becomes available.

There should be no shortage of potatoes so soon after the harvest period, but in view of the current level of prices, the Government consider that both growers and traders should be put in a position to make plans to meet the needs of the market as and when they arise. Imports of main crop potatoes will, therefore, be allowed as soon as possible; and licensing arrangements will be announced by the Board of Trade within the next few days.

Supplies and prices will be kept under constant review, and so long as the need continues, imports will be permitted, subject to balance of payments considerations, and to regulations essential for the maintenance of the health of the potato crop in the United Kingdom. It is not intended that imports should continue for longer than is necessary to help maintain adequate supplies in the shops at reasonable prices.

I thank the hon. Member for that answer, which some of us think should have been given a week or two ago. Is he aware that it is only by this action that he can help the farmers who as much as anybody else, want stability both in supplies and prices? The action the Government have now taken will help in that direction.

I am grateful to the hon. Member. It is difficult to know just when to take this sort of decision, but I hope that, we have struck the right time.

Is my hon. Friend aware that this decision will be received with much misgiving in many quarters?

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that his statement will be generally welcomed? Will he keep the supply situation continually under review so that as far as possible supplies balance demand?

We shall attempt to do that.

Is it not most undesirable that the allegation that farmers are hoarding potatoes should be made in a Question without being substantiated, which will do a great deal to undermine that confidence between producer and consumer which is most desirable?

Yes, I regret the appearance of the word "hoarding", and I tried in my Answer to indicate that I thought there was no evidence of it.

asked the Minister of Supply what plans he has for a comprehensive scheme, along the lines of that prepared for the Armed Forces, for compensation on redundancy and training for fresh employment for technicians, designers and other highly specialised workers in the aircraft industry whose skills will not be required as a result of changes in weapon technique.

None, Sir. The two problems are surely quite different.

Will the Minister bear in mind that these people have spent a lifetime acquiring more and more skill in a very narrow and specialised field? Will he try in the present difficult situation to achieve two things, first, to get justice for these people; and secondly, to see that the nation, which incidentally has paid for this skill, does not lose such a valuable asset when most required for civil aircraft?

I agree with the two premises put forward by the hon. Member, especially with the second. As a matter of fact, these technicians, scientists and engineers are in much demand elsewhere, and it is very important that their services should be used elsewhere.

asked the Minister of Supply, in view of the general uncertainty within the aircraft construction industry following the reduction of military contracts and the termination of development work, and the doubt about the present structure of the industry being suitable for the maximum development of the civil aircraft market, what measures he proposes to take to strengthen and stabilise the industry.

asked the Minister of Supply whether he is aware of the dislocation being caused within the aircraft manufacturing industry by changes in his procurement programme; and what steps he is taking to mitigate it.

asked the Minister of Supply if he will make a full statement on the present and future prospects of the aircraft industry.

The aircraft industry faces a difficult and challenging period. On the one hand, the reduction in the demands for military aircraft since the height of the rearmament programme has been substantial. On the other hand, the volume of production of civil aircraft during the next few years depends on the success of the manufacturers in selling the aircraft which are at present in course of production or development; and while I am optimistic of their success, it is unlikely that any increase in civil production will wholly offset the decline in military production.

An inter-departmental examination of the problems involved in this transition, including the future of Government policy on aeronautical research, is now being made. The Transport Aircraft Requirements Committee, which keeps under constant review all possible outlets for British transport aircraft, is also in present circumstances inviting the Society of British Aircraft Constructors into its discussions.

Lastly, it is desirable that the industry should reshape itself into stronger units. I have accordingly intimated to the industry that in placing orders for further requirements the Government will be influenced not only by the quality of design but also by the resources, technical and financial, available to complete the project quickly and successfully; and that, in so far as these criteria are not met in isolation, the Government will require the chosen contractor to work in association with one or more other contractors.

I thank the Minister for that reply, which does something to offset the impression he has given in recent replies that he has washed his hands of this industry and is not really interested in its problems. I should like to ask him two questions. First, does he think that this negative approach to the industry, by withholding orders from certain firms, is a good enough method of planning? Secondly, is he satisfied that the inter-Departmental inquiry is on a high enough level? Would it not be better to get some outside people of the highest character to look into the affairs of this industry, as the people he is now getting are those who have been largely responsible for its present position?

I do not wish to give the impression of any ill-feeling, but I must say that I highly resent any suggestion that I have been washing my hands of this business. This is a highly important matter, and I think that scarcely anybody is more conscious of the importance of this on the future of the country than I am.

On the question of withholding orders, it is not a case of deliberately withholding them; there has been a decline in the total of military ordering. That is the essence of the problem. With regard to the second point, concerning whether I was satisfied that the inter-Departmental investigation was on a high enough level, the answer is, "Yes, I am". As for the suggestion that other outside people might be brought into it. I suggest that the important thing here is a speedy decision, and the wider these inquiries are made the less likely speedy decisions become.

Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that his right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour keeps on saying that whenever there is threatened redundancy the trade unions ought to be brought into consultation at the earliest possible moment? Is he aware that the aircraft manufacturers have been talking for a long time about joint arrangements for running down the industry, without having said anything to any trade union? Does he know that in one case a large group of technologists at one aircraft factory first learned of their redundancy through a B.B.C. news bulletin and not through their employers? Will he tell the S.B.A.C. that this idiotic behaviour, which is contrary to Government policy and commonsense, ought to cease at once?

I am not aware of the facts given by the hon. Member, but I agree that it is desirable that in all practicable cases there should be consultation.

In view of the doubts that have been expressed, can my right hon. Friend assure me that Messrs. Short and Harland receive, and will continue to receive, a fair share of Government contracts?

Messrs. Short and Harland will always receive its fair share of Government contracts, subject to one very important condition, namely, that its quality and cost compete effectively with the quality and cost of other manufacturers.

May we turn to another aspect of this important question? Does the right hon. Gentleman think that the substantial reduction in military contracts, not only in regard to aircraft contracts but contracts for another Service Department, has had any reaction upon the strength and personnel of his Department? In view of this substantial reduction—and I understand that more is contemplated—is it not about time that this expensive and useless Department of the Ministry of Supply was abolished?

I am well aware of the views of the right hon. Gentleman on this question. I can only say that I profoundly disagree with him. I would ask him to think twice before he suggests disbanding a highly important scientific organisation at this moment of time and in this age.

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that there is a shortage of qualified pharmacists; and if he will make regulations to admit sergeant dispensers, demobilised from the Forces as qualified pharmacists and thus reduce the shortage.

I am aware of the position, but I have no authority to admit anyone to the Register of Pharmaceutical Chemists. This is a matter for the Pharmaceutical Society of Great Britain, acting under statutory powers.

Has my right hon. and learned Friend any special steps in mind to increase the supply of qualified pharmacists? Would it be possible to discuss with the Pharmaceutical Society whether these sergeant dispensers could have a short course—shorter than normal—and then be qualified?

As my hon. Friend may be aware, under the Pharmacy Act, 1954, there is statutory provision in regard to the making of byelaws which can allow for the admission of military dispensers without full examination in certain circumstances. So far as my own action is concerned, I am in consultation with the Central Health Services Council and my Standing Advisory Pharmaceutical Committee as to the best advice I can give to hospitals about the reorganisation of their pharmaceutical departments so as to make the best use of the available trained manpower.

Can the Minister say what is the nature of the training of these sergeant dispensers before they dispense dangerous drugs in the Army?

I think that the training they have is somewhat shorter than the corresponding civilian training which leads to admission to the Register at present. I think that that is why advantage has not been taken of the statutory power to make such byelaws as those to which I have referred.

I am sorry to press the Minister, but what qualifies these sergeant dispensers to dispense in the Army drugs similar to those dispensed to civilians?

If the right hon. Lady wants a specific reply in regard to the actual qualifications of military dispensers, she should put down a Question.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that the military training is probably about two years, compared with four or five years—in other words, there is a very substantial difference indeed?

The difference in training between the two is certainly a significant and material one.

asked the Minister of Health on what date supplies of anti-flu vaccine were first made available in the Manchester area in sufficient quantities to give protection to doctors and essential hospital staff.

The first supplies of vaccine were sent to the Manchester area, as to other parts of the country, early in October. Within the next few days sufficient vaccine will have been issued for all the general practitioners and local health authority staff in the area who expressed a wish to be vaccinated, but a further quantity remains to be issued for hospital staff.

Is it not the case that a large firm had a considerable stock of this vaccine available as early as 18th September? Could not some of that have been released earlier?

No, Sir. There are, in fact, two manufacturers of this vaccine. Distribution has been made as supplies of the vaccine have become available.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the Sunderland Maternity Hospital is dangerously full; and whether he will make a statement about the provision of extra facilities in the Sunderland area.

Although I cannot accept the suggestion that the position is dangerous, I am aware of the needs of this area, and the regional hospital board has them in mind for action as soon as possible.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that this is not just a question of the hospital itself being 100 per cent. full, but the danger of midwives drifting away, first, from the town, and secondly, from the profession? Ought not something to be done in regard to terms of pay and allowances, more particularly, in order to keep midwives in this profession?

The maternity part of the hospital is not 100 per cent. full; for the last two quarters the figure has been only 90 per cent. I agree that this hospital presents a local problem, but it is one primarily within the responsibility of the regional hospital board, which has to have regard to the priorities and needs of its whole area.

asked the Minister of Health if he has now considered the representations made to him on 11th November by the trade union representatives of the Whitley Council for the administrative and clerical grades in the Health Service; and if he will make a statement.

Yes, Sir. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and I have agreed to meet a deputation from the Staff Side of the General Whitley Council for the Health Services on Wednesday. I have nothing further to add to what I have said in the House on 6th November and on a number of occasions since.

As the Minister has had considerable time for reflection and is now in a position to measure the ill-fated consequence of his unfortunate decision, and in view of the meeting due next Wednesday, may I ask whether he thinks it worth while selling the Whitley Council down the river for a mere saving of 7d. in the £ in respect of a body of people who are relatively the lowest-paid people in the public service? In view of the Minister's veto in this case, does it make sense for his representatives to agree to a decision increasing scales of pay by 5 per cent. to which, it is reported in The Times today, the Minister has given approval?

I cannot accept all the implications in the supplementary questions from the hon. Gentleman. He has referred to points which have been debated at length in this House within the last few weeks. In particular, I cannot accept his suggestion that the action taken by my right hon. Friend and myself was in derogation of the proper functions of the Whitley Council. I have already explained more than once in this House that there are two clear stages in this matter and my right hon. Friend and myself acted in furtherance of our express statutory duty at the appropriate stage.

As the right hon. Gentleman is to meet the representatives of the men on Wednesday, together with the Secretary of State for Scotland, does he consider himself free to reconsider his previous decision after he has met them?

The gentlemen who are coming to see my right hon. Friend and myself on Wednesday are from the Staff Side of the General Whitley Council for the National Health Services. They will put forward whatever points they have in mind, and my right hon. Friend and myself will, of course, give them careful consideration.

May I repeat my question? Will the Minister begin his discussion with the representatives of the Staff Side by indicating to them that he is free to consider the whole position, including a review or reversal of his previous decision, if they convince him that that is necessary?

I do not anticipate that it will be I who will open this discussion. [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer the question."] We have been asked to receive this deputation, and I repeat that we shall consider carefully what they say; and what we say to them will be attuned to what they say to us.

Will the Minister bear in mind that it would be the wish of the majority of hon. Members of this House and the electors that he and the Government should be free to consider the matter? Otherwise, what is the purpose of meeting these people on Wednesday?

The reason for meeting them is, as the right hon. Gentleman well knows, that they put forward a request to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister that he should meet them. He indicated to them that it would be appropriate, at any rate in the first instance, for them to see my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and myself as being the Ministers immediately concerned. They took up that suggestion and asked for the interview, and it has been arranged for Wednesday.

Does this mean that on Wednesday the right hon. Gentleman will go to the meeting with an open mind?

It depends upon what the right hon. Lady means by "an open mind". I shall certainly go there with a receptive mind.

asked the Minister of Health the age of the 30 mm. machine used in North Staffordshire for mass radiography; and how many examinations have been made with it since it was put into use in that area.

The precise age of this unit is not known, but it has been in use for civil mass radiography since 1946. 353,500 examinations have been made with it since it was brought into use at Stoke-on-Trent.

Would it not be fair to say that it has done very good service and is rather old? In view of the fact that in this area so many people are at risk from a respiratory disease other than tuberculosis, namely, pneumoconiosis, may we have some assurance that the needs of the area will be carefully considered and a new machine provided as soon as possible?

Most other mass miniature radiography units are well over ten years old. Age need not prejudice efficiency if the tubes and other parts are replaced as necessary, but I will certainly keep the hon. Gentleman's request in mind.

asked the Minister of Health how many mass miniature radiographic machines of the 100 mm. type are in use in the West Midland Region; and what is the cost of each machine as compared with a 30 mm. type.

A 100 mm. machine is in use at the Coventry and Warwickshire Hospital, and another is shortly to be delivered for the Birmingham mass radiography centre. It would not be in the public interest to disclose the cost of this apparatus, which is supplied under Government contract, but it is not an important factor in the choice between a 35 mm. and a 100 mm. machine.

Is it not true that the film obtained from a 100 mm. type of machine is in many respects nearly as good as is obtained from a full-sized film used for normal radiography purposes? Is it not also true that such a machine used in an area where miners and pottery workers are at risk owing to pneumoconiosis would he most valuable, and may we have some assurance that the area will be considered for the provision of a machine of this type as soon as possible?

In a recent memorandum to regional hospital hoards the possibilities of the 100 mm. unit for static mass radiography have been mentioned. The wholesale replacement of the 35 mm. units cannot be considered until the results of an experiment now in progress with the 100 mm. units are available, and the 100 mm. machine at the Coventry and Warwickshire Hospital is part of that experiment.

asked the Minister of Health when the scheme to abate the smoke nuisance committed by the Nottingham Number 1 Hospital Management Committee due to the emission of black smoke and grit from the chimney of the Nottingham General Hospital is expected to become effective.

The scheme became effective early in October.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the unfortunate victims in the Nottingham fall-out area would not go as far as that? Will he look at the matter again and do all in his power to inject a sense of urgency into the hospital management committee, because notice of this nuisance was served on it over eight years ago?

I am aware that there has been a good deal of discussion of the past history of this matter, but this is the first time I have heard any suggestion that the scheme has not been effective since coming into operation. If my hon. and gallant Friend means that allegation, I will certainly look at the matter.

Will the Minister make sure that not only this hospital but the hospital in my area has the financial resources to enable it to install modern boiler plant?

This plant has been installed at a cost of £80,000. It is a large scheme, which has taken over two years to complete. I have no information that it is now working other than satisfactorily.

asked the Minister of Health what is the number of mental defective children at present detained at the Rampton Mental Hospital; what was the age of the youngest admission; how many children have been detained at Rampton since 1st January, 1950; and what was the age of the youngest child on admission during that period.

On 14th November, there were thirteen boys and three girls, of whom one boy was five years old on admission. Since 1st January, 1950. eleven boys and three girls have been admitted, of whom the youngest was the boy of five years.

Is it not a shocking thing that children under five years of age are going into the atmosphere of Rampton Mental Hospital, which in every aspect is a prison and in which there are murderers? Is the Minister saying that there is no hope for these children? If there is any hope, would it not be better to have them in an atmosphere free from such a taint? Is he aware that some children talk about living next door to "lifers"? Is that helpful?

The admission in 1953 of the boy in question was quite exceptional because no vacancy existed for him at that time in a mental deficiency hospital and he had become unmanageable in the convent where he then was. I am happy to tell the hon. Gentleman and the House that, since April of this year, the number of children in the hospital has decreased from 22 to 16.

What if the right hon. Gentleman's child were there?

As this hospital is in my constituency and an impression may get abroad about the cause of this Question, may I ask whether the conditions at this hospital are such that no detrimental effect is suffered by children there? But would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that they should be segregated from the adult mental defectives?

As the right hon. Gentleman will be aware, there is a special villa for the children at Rampton, which is separate from the main building. The boys, other than a few boys of 15 of particularly difficult disposition, are in the villa. There is a small school in association with the villa. The hon. Member for Erith and Crayford (Mr. Dodds) should not refer to this State institution as having a "prison-like character" in the extravagant terms that he uses.

Of course it is a prison.