asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs by what proportions the local authority house-building programmes in the borough and rural district of Newcastle-under-Lyme have risen or fallen in the last three years; for what reasons; and what steps he will now take to help the councils to enlarge them.

I would refer the hon. Member to the statistics which are published quarterly as an Appendix to the Housing Return. During the past two years, housing authorities have been free to determine the size of their annual programmes of house-building, and variations have been their responsibility. I have already advised the House that during 1958, as part of the measures to counter inflation, there must be some slowing down of house-building by local authorities; and I am not, therefore, prepared to encourage them to enlarge their programmes at the moment.

Is the Minister aware that that is a grossly misleading reply? The experience of the last few years is that the Government have piled restriction upon restriction on the local authorities in the form of higher interest charges that will postpone the fulfilment of the housing needs of my constituents, who are grossly dissatisfied with the situation. Will the right hon. Gentleman kindly give an assurance that he will not impose any further restriction upon them?

I deny entirely the insinuation in the first part of the supplementary question. I have indicated to a number of local authorities, all of whom have been quite free to determine their own programmes, that if they found themselves in financial difficulty they might well look at the level of their existing rents.

Does the right hon. Gentleman's answer mean that he has now abandoned what he called his slum clearance campaign?

No, Sir.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether, in view of the number of notices of evictions under the Rent Act, 1957, given since December and due to be effected in London next October, he will introduce amending legislation to postpone these evictions until alternative accommodation is available.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs, in view of instances in the past two months of threats of eviction next October to old-age pensioners who have lived in rented houses for over twenty years because they have refused to buy their houses, if he will introduce legislation to amend the Rent Act, 1957, in order to prevent such evictions.

Service of notice to quit does not necessarily mean that the tenant will not still be able to make a new agreement with his landlord. I recognise that some old people, particularly those who are occupying rented houses which are too large for them, may require to move, but I am not convinced that it will necessarily be impossible for them to find alternative accommodation. I have further suggested to local authorities ways in which they can help old people who may have to move and who cannot find alternative accommodation for themselves.

Where has the Minister got the crazy idea from that sufficient alternative accommodation will be available to rehouse evicted London families in October? Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that quite a volume of public opinion may sympathise with tenants who barricade their homes in October rather than be thrown on to the streets? The Minister is going to be the most hated man in Britain before he is very much older.

I am concerned to do what I believe to be right. I have already informed the House that I believe that the number of people who will actually have to leave their homes by October will be very very small as compared with the figures that are being bandied about nowadays.

Rubbish.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that many of the problems that are likely to arise in October could be solved now if he would authorise the Public Works Loan Board to make funds available to local authorities for house purchase without insisting on their first going to the market?

A local authority which desires to raise funds for housing purposes or any other purpose should first go to the market, and if it cannot raise a loan in the market at a reasonable rate of interest it can then apply to the Public Works Loan Board. That has been the position since 1955.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that some cases have been notified where tenants, although willing to pay an increased rent, have been told that the landlord refuses to accept any new agreement with an increased rent and that they are to be evicted? Was it the intention of the right hon. Gentleman, when he introduced this legislation, that some tenants willing to pay increased rents and to enter new agreements would be evicted? Will he do something about that?

I have advised tenants never to accept the first communication from the landlord as the final one but to seek professional advice and enter negotiations with the landlord. I well realise that in some cases either the landlord may need vacant possession of the property for some good purpose or it may not be possible to reach a satisfactory outcome to the negotiations, but I repeat that the number of people who will have to leave their homes and will not be able to make arrangements for satisfactory alternative accommodation will be very small in relation to the figures now being talked about.

Can the Minister say what is the proper advice for a London Member of Parliament to give to constituents threatened with eviction in October who ask him what they can do?

The first advice to give them is to seek negotiation with their landlord and to take professional advice on the course of those negotiations.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he is aware that there are many people who have more than one house and/or flat for personal occupation; and whether he will introduce the necessary legislation to ensure that such people will only be able to claim one such establishment as their place of residence, making over their additional accommodation to the appropriate local authority for use by these authorities to rehouse families rendered homeless by the Rent Act, 1957.

The hon. Member's proposal seems to me wholly impracticable.

Whether it is impracticable or not, is it not a fact that hundreds of thousands of tenants have been and are receiving notices of eviction? Is it not immoral for the Minister to arrange for the eviction of those people while thousands of people have one, two, three or four homes? Would it not be better and easier to give some of those homes to evicted people so that they might have a roof over their heads?

I am well aware that a number of hon. Members have more than one home, but I think this would be a clumsy and impracticable method of proceeding. I would remind the hon. Member that local authorities have power to make compulsory purchase orders if they wish.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will give the reasons why his records do not permit him to give the number of persons who have protested against the Rent Act, 1957; and if he will also give the reasons which prevent his Department from having an investigation and examination made of the 1,800 letters he has received on this subject to ascertain the number who have expressed themselves in support of, and against, this Act, respectively.

No running record has been kept classifying the letters, and some indeed would defy classification. To undertake an analysis now would take a great deal of time to no purpose except to show that the Rent Act is a Measure on which different people hold different views; and that is known already.

Has the Minister seen his local paper, which gives thousands of cases of people being evicted without any alternative of negotiating? Will he look at that? If it is a question of finding time, will he let me have the 1,800 letters, as I can assure him that I can distinguish between those which are for him and those which are against him and put a suitable Question on the Order Paper so that hon. Members may know the result?

I can certainly inform the House that all the letters I have received from the hon. Member have been definitely against the Rent Act.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he will consult the Minister of Health and the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance with a view to introducing some protection against eviction under the Rent Act, 1957, of persons crippled by poliomyelitis or other disabilities.

I am afraid that it would not be practicable to distinguish between classes of decontrolled tenants in the way suggested. But any disabled tenant who receives notice to quit should make certain that the landlord knows all the circumstances, and I hope that it will usually be possible to arrange a renewal of the tenancy. If any such tenant does have to move, I am sure he will get sympathetic treatment from the local authority.

Is the Minister aware that there are such cases, where the tenants have given all the facts and information to the landlords and yet are still given notices to quit? Is he also aware that in many cases they have erected garages or sheds for housing vehicles, or otherwise adapted their premises to their disability, and that it is a particular hardship to be evicted? Will not he examine the extent of the problem to see what protection he can give to these people who have received quite enough cruel blows without this additional one being inflicted upon them?

In any such case, if the landlord knows the facts and is still not prepared to withdraw the notice to quit, I should strongly advise the disabled person to contact the local welfare authority.

rose—

Order. Let us get on.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will cause an investigation to be made into the excessive rents now being asked in respect of decontrolled houses with a view to taking action to obviate grave hardship whilst there is still a housing shortage.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he will so amend the Rent Act, 1957, as to provide some security of tenure and a right of appeal against extortionate rents being charged in cases where tenants take up new tenancies of property in a bad state of repair.

I do not think such action is needed. The fact is that the great majority of landlords are not asking excessive rents. Tenants, if they are in doubt, should take expert advice and should refuse to pay more than what they are advised is a reasonable market rent having regard to the condition of the property. If they do that landlords who ask too much will have to reduce their figures or else risk being left with their property empty.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that, unless he takes some action before 1st October, many elderly people will be forced to get out of houses in which they have lived for many years because they cannot afford the rent, with all the misery that this entails? Does not the Minister appreciate that unless he changes his present cold-blooded attitude to this problem he will go down in history as the Minister of Evictions?

No, Sir. My attitude is not cold-blooded. I say once again that I am quite certain that the great majority of these cases will be found to be soluble, and I have specially asked the local authorities to give their attention to the cases of old people when difficulties arise.

Does the Minister not recognise that many people are being swindled into accepting exchanges of houses purely in order that the landlords can acquire the right to charge any kind of rent without any security at all, and will he not at least give some advice to tenants to draw the danger of this situation to their attention?

This is the most valuable place of all in which to issue advice, and the advice I have given repeatedly through the House of Commons is that everyone affected should seek expert advice before taking any decision.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he has considered the resolution of the Wood Green Council, a copy of which has been sent to him, which authorises negotiation for the purchase by the council of properties from which tenants are under notice to quit following the passing of the Rent Act, 1957; and what reply he has given.

This resolution, which was passed on 27th November last, was not sent to me until I asked for it after the hon. Member put down her Question. The resolution does no more than authorise the collection of information about tenants under notice to quit and unable to find alternative accommodation, in order that the question of negotiating for the purchase of the properties concerned may be considered. No comment by me appears to be called for at this stage.

Is the Minister aware that, out of the applications received by the Wood Green Council from tenants due to be evicted next October, the authority has examined in detail 68 cases, of which more than half are from tenants over 60, 19 are from tenants over 70, and two are from tenants over 80, and that more than half have sub-tenants who are likely to find great difficulty in claiming protection under the Act? This being the situation eight months before next October, in one part of my constituency, does the Minister not realise the tragedies which will occur next October unless he does something about it?

Whatever the circumstances, the first action to be taken is for the council itself to decide what it wants to do.

But does the Minister not really understand that there will be housing chaos in London in October? As there is now an overwhelming demand for the amendment of the Rent Act, why does he still refuse to do anything?

I do not accept for one moment the first part of the right hon Gentleman's question.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he will sanction exceptional expenditure by local housing authorities who seek to provide alternative homes for people evicted in October, 1958, under the terms of the Rent Act, 1957; and whether he will make a statement.

I am always prepared to consider proposals requiring my sanction when I know what they are.

But does the right hon. Gentleman not realise that local authorities are being put in a most impossible position by his present callous indifference and his incitement to bad landlords, and does he not think that he has some obligation to local government in this matter?

The hon. Gentleman's question was couched in vague terms, and I am not at all clear what action local authorities might, in the hon. Gentleman's view, want to take which would not be covered by their existing statutory powers.

Is the Minister aware that, unless local authorities are able to provide shelter for these people, we shall have a major crisis in certain cities and towns of the country? Therefore, does he not appreciate that my question is directed to the point that local authorities should be empowered to build extra accommodation for these people, which they can only do through an extra grant?

The point is that I cannot grant loan sanction to a local authority until it has applied to me for loan sanction.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs how many old people are likely to be affected by the decontrol provisions of the Rent Act within the next twelve months; and what is the nature of the assistance which, as indicated in his Department's Circular No. 55/57, dated 20th November, 1957, he expects local authorities with very large housing waiting lists to be able to give to them.

I have no figures showing how many old people are likely to need assistance, though I would not expect the number to be large. I think the hon. and learned Member will find my suggestions fully explained in the Circular.

Is it not sheer humbug for the Minister to ask local authorities with vast housing lists to help old people evicted as a result of his Rent Act, and is he not aware that in West Ham, for instance, the rehousing of families of young and old people living in foul slum conditions is being held up because there is no alternative accommodation even for them?

No, Sir. I have great faith in local authorities carrying out their duties and responsibilities. The hon. and learned Member seems even yet not to have realised that the effect of the Rent Act will be to increase and not to diminish the amount of accommodation.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs (1) whether he will give a list of those local authorities who have applied for industrial subsidy under Section 3 (3) (d) of the Housing Subsidies Act, 1956, showing which applications have been granted, and the length of time elapsing between application and authorisation in each case; and

(2) when he will be able to answer the application of the Strood Rural District Council, dated 4th July, 1957, for an industrial subsidy under Section 3 of the Housing Subsidies Act, 1956, in respect of the erection of 300 houses for accommodating persons coming into the area to meet the urgent needs of the new oil refinery at the Isle of Grain.

I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT the names of the local authorities which have had applications approved or rejected, and of those whose applications are still under consideration. I could not without a great deal of work say how long each case has taken, but the period between application and approval has usually been short. Applications which raise general issues of policy are bound to take longer. Strood Rural District Council's application was one such case, but I have now informed the council of my agreement to its providing some houses with the aid of this special subsidy.

Whilst thanking my right hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask if it is not true that he has approved only half the number for which the council asked? In view of the great shortage of houses in this very remote rural area, could he not look at the matter again?

The exact number will have to be settled in discussion with the council. I hope my hon. Friend approves of my action in having reached a decision on a grant which had been too long delayed.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he is aware that the proposals for slum clearance submitted by local authorities under Section 1 of the Housing Repairs and Rent Act, 1954, do not provide an accurate assessment of the amount of work to be done; and whether he will invite them to submit further proposals, based on more detailed surveys, and taking into account, among other things, deterioration due to the effluxion of time since the original conclusions were reached.

Local authorities still have three years' work in hand from their first five-year programmes of slum clearance. They are free to submit modifying proposals at any time, but in my view a second comprehensive survey now would be premature. It would only interfere with the main task of clearance.

Is the Minister aware that the survey was made in a great hurry in response to pressure from his Department and was described in the document as being only a broad estimate? In view of his sensitiveness to misleading figures, does he not think it time to bring it up to date?

The hon. Member says the survey was made in a great hurry, but it was made in accordance with an Act passed by Parliament. I think that 847,000 houses were estimated to be unfit. There are those to be cleared and a great deal of work to be done. Any local authority which wishes to put forward modifying proposals is fully at liberty to do so at any time.

Is the Minister aware that there are a great many houses on the borderline and houses are getting older, and that therefore a further survey would show more houses which ought to be cleared?

I and my hon. Friends are more anxious to press on with the work of clearance than to engage staff on the task of further surveys.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will publish in HANSARD a table of figures giving the monthly amounts of moneys, for which he gave loan sanction to the appropriate local authority in Rochdale, for house-building and other local authority services for each of the months from October, 1951 to October, 1957; and, on the basis of these capital sums having to be repaid over sixty years with the current rates of interest in being at the time of borrowing, what the total cost of repayment of capital and interest will be for each of these borrowings at the end of 60 years.

No, Sir. My right hon. Friend is unable to see what value there could be in publishing the figures of loans sanctioned month by month over a period of seventy-two months. As regards the second part of the Question, the assumptions contained in it are so unreal that it would be a waste of time to work out the figures.

Are we to take it from that reply that the Minister is afraid to confirm the report that has been published by an independent authority that a house which was costing £1,500 in 1951 is now costing a local authority £6,000 on repayment? Does not this disprove the oft-repeated claim of the Government that they want to combat inflation and does it not show that they know local authorities regard this as the worst Government they have ever had?

The hon. Member can infer what he likes. My right hon. Friend would not be a party to wasting public money to produce hypothetical figures.

Would the hon. Gentleman admit that the figures quoted by my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Lewis) are correct, and that they show an undue proportion of interest as compared with land, wages and materials?

That may be so—[HON. MEMBERS: "It is so."]—but the Question assumes that the Rochdale local authority always borrows over a period of sixty years and assumes that it borrows at the current rate of interest, which is nonsense.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what action he proposes to take regarding the practice of certain local authorities of refusing to consider applications for grant under the Housing Act, 1954, for improvements to farm cottages.

As I said in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Mr. Hurd) on 3rd December, I think that this is a matter which must be left to local authorities to determine. The information which I gave to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Lewes (Colonel Beamish) on 4th February about the record of rural district councils in relation to improvement grants shows that these authorities have done very well; and it is in the rural districts that the farm cottages are found.

Would my right hon. Friend say what reply he has made to the representations he has received from the National Farmers' Union on this subject? Would he not agree that it is extremely important that these grants should work freely in order that the farm worker may be able to bring up his standard of living to that enjoyed by his urban brother?

I am extremely anxious that local authorities in rural as well as in urban areas should use this grant. I have no power to compel them to do so. My hon. Friend will, I think, be pleased to hear that in rural districts the number of grants made in the fourth quarter of last year was greater than in the third quarter.

Will not the Minister encourage local authorities to apply for and use this grant, having regard to the fact that last year there was again a further serious loss of farm workers from the land?

As I have said, I am anxious that local authorities should use this grant, but Parliament gave me no power to compel them to do so.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will state the amount of overcrowding in each of the Metropolitan boroughs.

The information desired is not available, for local authorities have not reported on overcrowding in their districts since the end of the war, as they have been fully occupied with slum clearance and their other housing responsibilities.

Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that he would be better informed about the London housing problem if he had this information? Will he now use the powers that Parliament gave him last year in the 1957 Housing Act and require the local authorities concerned to supply him with this information so that he may know the position?

Metropolitan boroughs are free agents and can make what investigation they wish and, if serious cases of overcrowding are brought to their notice, can use the powers given under Section 90 of the 1957 Act.

Is it not the duty of the right hon. Gentleman to find out about overcrowding in the Metropolitan area—he must know perfectly well that there is a great deal of it—just as he thought it is his duty to find out about another matter—slum houses?

The main object is to get on with slum clearance and other matters, rather than divert staff. It is quite true that twenty-five years ago one-eighth of the population of London was living at the rate of more than two persons to a room, but by now it has fallen to a mere fraction of that.

How does the right hon. Gentleman know?

For one thing, I know by reference to the 1951 Census, and there has been a further improvement since then.

Why does the right hon. Gentleman obstinately neglect overcrowding?

Owing to the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek an opportunity of raising this matter on the Motion for the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what replies he has received from local authorities to his recent circular on housing the olds; and whether he asked for replies to his request for action.

The circular to which I think my hon. Friend is referring. No. 55 of 20th November, 1957, does not ask for replies. Its purpose is to secure action by local authorities, as I think it will, rather than a statement of their intentions.

Would I be right in assuming that local authorities taking any action towards this very desirable end will not find any obstacles, economic or otherwise, put in their path in providing this very necessary form of housing?

I am extremely anxious that local authorities shall implement Circular No. 55 to the full. Of course, I should not wish them, in doing so, to indulge in unnecessary extravagance of expenditure, but, as is perfectly well known, the local authorities can fulfil their duties under that Circular while at the same time paying due regard to the importance of not wasting money.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what assistance he intends to give to local authorities who implement the suggestion in Circular 55–57 by purchasing properties for the rehousing of elderly people evicted under the Rent Act, 1957.

An Exchequer contribution under the Housing Acts of 1949 and 1954 is available for the improvement or conversion of houses purchased by local authorities.

Does the Minister not realise that this Circular does not increase in any way the financial allowance by the Government to local authorities, and is it not monstrous that local authorities should have to carry so much of the loss on conversions when they are merely carrying out the ambulance work left by his most disastrous Act?

For the purposes mentioned in my original Answer, an Exchequer contribution equal to three-quarters of the estimated annual loss which may be incurred by the local authority over a period of 20 years is already available, and I consider that that should be sufficient.

Does the Minister not realise that the capital cost of these conversions for old people, where necessary, is so heavy that it is quite impossible for many authorities, even with the subsidies referred to, effectively to do the job? Will he not, therefore, do something to get the interest charges on the capital costs of these properties reduced?

I have already pointed out to the House that 75 per cent. of the annual loss can be met by the Exchequer.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will set up a departmental committee to consider the provision of accommodation for homeless families, especially in view of the increase in homelessness which will result from the Rent Act, 1957.

I do not think that such action is called for.

Is the Minister completely unaware of the difficulties which many local authorities already have in dealing with homeless families for whom they have at present to provide, and does he not care at all what happens to the thousands of people who will be turned out in October?

I care a great deal, and I have already said that, while there will be no amendment of the Rent Act, I am quite sure that the great majority of difficult cases will, in fact, find a solution before October.

On a point of order. In view of the completely unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I shall endeavour to raise the matter on the Adjournment of the House.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what considerations he normally takes into account in deciding whether or not to confirm a compulsory purchase order for housing purposes.

The local authority must satisfy me that it needs the land in order to meet its obligations as a housing authority, that the land ought to be used for housing or, at any rate, that there is no objection to so doing, and that the case for public acquisition is strong enough to outweigh any objections that may be lodged by owners and others affected.

Can the Minister say why he refused permission for a St. Pancras Borough Council rehousing scheme on the ground that there was no provision made for the private lock-up garages which at present occupy the site? Is this not a perfectly frivolous decision, and are we coming to the situation when shelter for motor cars is more important than shelter for human beings?

The main reason for rejecting this order was the refusal of the St. Pancras Borough Council to provide alternative garage accommodation, for which there is a very great need in this area and for which it would have been perfectly possible to provide had the council so wished.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs how many dwellings are still requisitioned by Metropolitan borough councils.

On 31st December, 1957, the Metropolitan borough councils held on requisition 26,756 dwellings.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that all these people have to get out by 1960? Is he aware that in Lambeth alone, even allowing for the properties expected to be taken over by the owners or bought by the council or released through people moving out, 1,000 families will be homeless as a result of the ending of requisition? What will he do about that? Will he please not tell me to go and seek professional advice on the matter?

The release of requisitioned dwellings by Metropolitan councils has been going on at a considerable rate, and I am anxious that it should be completed by the date stated in the Act, and that is 1960.

It cannot be done in the time.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what legislation he has in mind to meet the needs of those who, subject to proper safeguards, prefer caravans for permanent residence; and if he will make a statement.

As my right hon. Friend said in answer to my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Chertsey (Sir L. Heald) on 30th July last, he cannot hold out any early prospect of amending legislation. I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of my right hon. Friend's statement.

As my hon. Friend has said that many local authorities take the view that caravans provide sub-standard accommodation, will he make it clear that that is not the view of his Department, but that it takes the view that caravan accommodation is often superior to accommodation in private houses?

Answer.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs when his Department will complete its study of the East Riding Development Plan, which was submitted to his Department in 1952.

I am sorry that this is taking so long. My right hon. Friend hopes to let the county council have his views on its plan in the next three months, although the remaining stages after that are bound to take some time. Notwithstanding the absence of an approved development plan, applications for permission to carry out particular developments can be made and decided.

While thanking my hon. Friend for that assurance, may I ask if he is aware that this delay in approving the plan is causing local authorities serious embarrassment and inhibiting building by local authorities and private enterprise?

Yes, Sir, I am aware of the difficulties, but there were about 400 objections to this plan which have to be considered. We will, however, press on with it with all speed.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs how many complaints have been submitted to the Alkali Inspectorate from all local authorities that certain industrial processes produce an offending odour reminiscent of tom-cats in large numbers; in how many instances has a complete remedy been applied; and if he will state the length of time on average between complaint and cessation of the odour.

I am not an expert on the habits of the animals referred to in the Question, but I understand that the alkali inspectors have received reports of smells of this kind on a number of occasions. In only one case were the smells due to a process registered under the Alkali Act. In that case, strict precautions have been enforced, but there have, nevertheless, been occasional minor escapes of an accidental nature which have led to further complaints.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that this particular and undetectable odour was discussed at great length some time ago during the Committee stage of the Clean Air Bill? Is he further aware that at that time there were serious complaints about there being very few alkali inspectors, and that promises were made that the number would be increased to twenty? Will he tell the House how far the Department has been successful in increasing the number and whether we can have some hope that the inspectors will tackle these offensive problems as quickly as possible?

I think I am right in saying that that particular case, where the odour was due to a process which is registrable under the Alkali Act, took place in the Birmingham area and not in the Potteries. I think there is a later Question which refers to the Potteries.

Whitewashing the tomcats.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs when the Alkali Inspectorate first received a complaint from the local authority of Stoke-on-Trent that the north-western part of the city was affected by a tom-cat odour; and what action has been taken to free the City from this unpleasant visitation.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs (1) how long it is estimated it will take to free the northern area of Stoke-on-Trent from the offensive smell which now exists;

(2) if he is aware of the offensive smell which exists in the northern district of Stoke-on-Trent; and what steps are being taken by the Alkali Inspectorate to remedy this.

Complaints about this smell were first received in April, 1956. Investigation showed that it was caused by the dumping of acid sludge from a benzole refinery. This process is not registrable under the Alkali Act, so that statutory responsibility for the abatement of nuisance rests with the local authority and not with the Alkali Inspectorate. I understand, however, that, after informal consultation with the alkali inspector, plant for the treatment of the sludge is being installed and should soon be in operation.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his reply. Is it not the fact, however, that, on investigation, the local authority of Stoke-on-Trent found that the process was not within its own jurisdiction, because this particular plant was situated in another local authority's territory?

I am sorry that I cannot answer that particular point, but I do assure the hon. Member that we shall maintain close contact with the firm and with the local authority to see that things go along all right.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary give us some more detailed information as to how long he thinks that it will take before the smell can be eradicated, because it is recurring time and time again?

As I say, the new plant should be in operation in a month or so, and we shall keep in close touch on this point.

Can my hon. Friend confirm that the transfer of these industries to the Alkali Inspectorate will shortly be the subject of an Order which he will lay before this House? Is he aware that many of my hon. Friends and myself are gravely concerned about this transfer and, having defeated the Government on this very point in Committee, we shall propose to pray against the Order at the appropriate moment?

The first part of my hon. Friend's Question is perfectly true, and the matter, of course, will be debated.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he has noted the transformation that has taken place in the atmosphere of Stoke-on-Trent, and the great saving of raw coal, since the introduction of firing pottery in continuous kilns using smokeless fuel; and whether he will state the reasoning that led him to place the pottery industry as a whole into the care of the Alkali Inspectorate.

My right hon. Friend has been glad to note these developments in the pottery industry and hopes that they will continue. He does not propose to schedule the whole of the industry under the Alkali Act, but only those works in which coal or oil-fired intermittent kilns are still in use. These present intractable problems in regard to the prevention of dark smoke.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that that answer is not very satisfactory and will not meet with the agreement of those who know the problems, in the City of Stoke-on-Trent? Has he noted that his answer could have been given for the whole of the industry in 1938, when the problem would have been assumed to be intractable, but that the general view now held by experts in the area is that there is no need whatsoever for raw coal to be used in almost any of the industrial processes used in firing pottery, or in other firing processes in industry? Will he give the matter further consideration, please, for we now have considerable experience in this matter?

As I say, my right hon. Friend certainly hopes that these developments in firing in the pottery industry will go ahead, but meanwhile he thinks it wise that these more intractable problems should come under the supervision of the Alkali Inspectorate.

Is it not for the very reason that the hon. Gentleman has just given that the industry should not be scheduled as such and taken away from the supervision of the inspectors in the local areas? It seems to me that the people in the local area have a detailed knowledge of the problems, which therefore should be kept under their control and not under the remote control of alkali inspectors in Birmingham.

We shall certainly have regard to what has been said in this House this afternoon, but meanwhile my right hon. Friend is of the opinion that these difficult cases should come under the Alkali Inspectorate.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs (1) what reply he has given to the request from the clerk of the Atherstone Rural District Council to receive a deputation on the subject of the proposed Polesworth, Dordon and Warton Sewerage and Sewage Disposal Scheme;

(2) whether he has considered the letter from the clerk of the Atherstone Rural District Council stating that, in the view of the council, the Polesworth, Dordon and Warton Sewerage and Sewage Disposal Scheme is eligible for grant under the Rural Water Supplies and Sewerage Acts, 1944 and 1955; and what was his reply;

(3) whether he will accept for grant aid the proposed Polesworth, Dordon and Warton Sewerage and Sewage Disposal Scheme, in view of the fact that the Rural Water Supplies and Sewerage Act, 1944, permits the Minister to make grants in aid of rural sewerage schemes where such schemes are associated with the provision or improvement of piped water supplies.

Grant has been refused on this sewerage scheme, and my right hon. Friend is now considering a letter from the hon. Member urging that his decision should be reconsidered, and also a request from the clerk to the Atherstone Rural District Council that a deputation should be received. I will write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he is aware of the dissatisfaction of local authorities with the placing of control over atmospheric pollution in the hands of the already overburdened Alkali Inspectorate; and if he will reconsider the question of putting control over atmospheric pollution from tileries in the hands of local authority officers.

My right hon. Friend is not aware of any proposal that responsibility for the control of air pollution in general should be transferred from local authorities to the Alkali Inspectorate. The Clean Air Act, 1956, has given local authorities additional powers and duties. The proposed extension of the Alkali Act relates only to a limited number of industrial works in which the prevention of air pollution presents special technical difficulties. This includes some tileries, but not all.

Has the Parliamentary Secretary noted that on both sides of the House there is considerable opposition to this proposal to transfer this control to the Alkali Inspectorate, and that it is a poor tribute to the progress made in North Staffs that the pottery industry should be picked on as one of these cases? Will he, therefore, reconsider—relating specifically to the pottery industry—leaving the power in the hands of the local council?

As the hon. Gentleman will understand, this flows from the recommendation made by the Beaver Committee, and it was, I think, accepted by my right hon. Friend. I should like to emphasise that, in the case of tile works, it is proposed only to schedule those in which coal or oil-fired intermittent kilns are used; that is to say, those that present the most intractable problems arising from smoke—only a limited number.

As the Alkali Inspectorate comes under his Ministry, is the hon. Gentleman satisfied that there are enough of these inspectors for this extended work, and has he taken steps to recruit any others?

That does not quite arise from the Question, but, speaking from memory. I think that the present number is about twenty, and we are certainly in the process of enlisting the services of additional officers.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he will introduce legislation to speed up and make more effective the operation of existing laws relating to unapproved caravan sites.

My right hon. Friend has this problem in mind, but he cannot hold out any early prospect of legislation.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the racket that is going on in this matter owing to the time taken in the lengthy procedure of the law? Is he aware that, as soon as a final decision has been reached, the caravans move to a neighbouring field and the same process has to be gone through all over again? Does he know that that is being carried on ad infinitum, and will he not do something to stop it?

Yes. My right hon. Friend realises the trouble under the existing law and that it is possible to occupy an unapproved caravan site for perhaps some six to nine months and for the operator then to move to an adjacent site. I am bound to repeat that at the moment—and there are different views on this question—there is no prospect of early legislation.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs in how many cases other than that concerning Thrift Street, North Shields, he has given advice to a local authority to enable them to sell their property at a price lower than the current market price.

The advice which I gave to the Tynemouth Council was designed to enable the Council to sell the land back to the original owner at its current market value unaffected by any planning permission, that being what they wished to do. Local authorities usually sell land at its current market value; but there are some cases in which it has been agreed, for special reasons, that they may sell at a lower price. I have no record of the number of cases in which this has been done.

Is it not a fact that the Minister admitted to me in a Written Reply to my Question on 17th December last that:

"The Housing Acts, however, require a local authority, when selling land bought for housing which they no longer need, to sell 'at the best price …that can reasonably be obtained'; "—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th December, 1957; Vol. 580. c. 45]

Is not this exactly a case where this should be applied, because this was a case of land bought for housing but no longer needed for that purpose in which the Minister gave his advice to the local authority to help them to evade selling it at the best possible price they could get?

No, Sir. The local authority bought this land for housing and then enhanced its value by approving its use for industry. It then asked me whether it could sell it back to the original owner at its housing value. I said that it could not do that, because the law prevented it doing it. I further told the authority that if it thought fit to revoke the planning permission, it would then be able to carry out its intention, but it was for the authority to decide whether it wished to follow that advice or not.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Tynemouth Council is very satisfied with the position? Will my right hon. Friend also point out to the hon. Lady opposite that it is a very good thing to have a moderate council in operation which tries to balance all its arrangements satisfactorily to all sections of the community?

I am much obliged to my hon. Friend. I was simply trying to do my best, and so, I am sure, was the Tynemouth Council.

Was not the effect of all this that the council sold back this land at a lower price than the best price it could have obtained if it had not followed the advice given by the Minister?

On a point of order. In the interests of hon. Members who take the trouble to put down Questions on the Order Paper, may I ask if it is necessary for the hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) to ask a supplementary question on every Question?

That is not a point of order.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs, in what circumstances under his regulations a local government auditor is authorised to approve the disposal by a local authority of its property to specified individuals at less than its market value.

The district auditor does not approve the terms on which local authorities dispose of property.

Will the Minister no answer the question put by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison), in which an attempt was made to save the right hon. Gentleman by the intervention of the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro)? Is it not a fact that in this case the land was, de-zoned and has been sold back at less than the best price that was available, and, therefore, the law has been broken?

I will certainly answer the questions asked by the hon. and learned Gentleman and the hon. Lade. The land has not been resold.

On a point of order. I am afraid that the Minister did not hear me correctly—

Whether the Minister heard or not is not a point of order.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what changes in the development of the county borough of Tynemouth have rendered Thrift Street redundant as an area zoned for industrial use.

The law enables a local planning authority to make an order revoking planning permission if it appears to them expedient having regard to the development plan and to any other material considerations. In this case, the Tynemouth County Borough Council has made a revocation order for the reasons explained in my reply to a Question by the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle on 17th December.

Will the Minister give an undertaking that he will not approve of any attempt to reserve land for industrial purposes and thus present a bonus price to the present owners? Does it not seem a regrettable precedent that he should advise a local authority to juggle with planning permissions in order to rig the prices of land, thus creating considerable difficulties in good local government practice?

I sympathise with the Tynemouth Borough Council in its desire not to make a profit out of its land by its own actions in re-zoning it. The position in reference to the supplementary question asked by the hon. Member is that the Tynemouth Council has made a revocation order and has submitted it for my confirmation. I am not aware of any objections having been raised in any quarter.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if, under the Local Government Act, 1933, he is prepared to approve expenditure by local authorities on the provision of talking books for the blind in the same way that they provide specialist books for students and discussion groups.

Sanction under this Act is not avaliable for continuing expenditure.

Is the Minister aware that my Question refers not to talking book recordings but to talking books, which are synonymous with talking book machines; the book cannot talk without the machine. This comes under the 1933 Act. It is not a welfare matter; it is a library matter. Will he not, therefore, look at it again to see whether local authorities can be allowed, under the Act, to provide this general service for the blind who cannot read Braille.

I assure the hon. Gentleman that I have been into this most carefully, and my present advice is that this is a matter for the welfare authority; but I am most anxious to help, and I will very gladly discuss it with him.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs which county councils have delegated planning powers to minor local authorities.

As the answer is in tabulated form, with permission, I will circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Can the Parliamentary Secretary give the number of local authorities?

I am afraid I cannot give the number off-hand.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs when he expects to make available to the parties to appeals, made to him under Section 16 of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, the report of his inspector who held the relevant public local inquiry.

I am in the process of consulting the local authority associations on the terms of a circular to local authorities dealing with this and other points arising from the report of the Franks Committee. I hope that I shall be able to issue the circular later this month. Arrangements for making available copies of inspectors' reports in planning appeals will apply in respect of inquiries held at any time after the issue of the circular.

I am obliged for that answer, but is it not the case that in November it was stated in another place that the Government hope to put these charges into operation during the course of January? Will the right hon. Gentleman give an undertaking that he will expedite this matter as far as he can?

I am anxious to expedite this matter. At the same time, the local authorities are closely concerned, and the hon. Gentleman will agree that it is right for me to consult the local authority associations to get their views before actually issuing a circular.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he will give directions to planning authorities that in future a slaughterhouse must not be sited in respect of any premises adjoining or forming part of a building used as a dwelling.

My right hon. Friend feels that local planning authorities in general can be relied upon to reach sensible decisions about the kind of development which should be sited near dwellings without directions from him.

Will the hon. Gentleman read the Committee proceedings on the Slaughterhouses Bill? He will find that the Parliamentary Secretary always throws the responsibility on to the Minister of Housing and Local Government. Will he not reconsider his decision to see that this intolerable state of affairs no longer continues?

My attention has been drawn to the proceedings of the Bill to which the hon. Gentleman refers. The difficulty arises from the fact that, under that Bill, licensing rests with the district councils whereas planning approval rests with the county council, subject, of course, to delegation. In the case of the hon. Member's own county, delegation is not to the district council but to area subcommittees, on which the district councils are represented. My right hon. Friend is reviewing those powers at the present time.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will now grant to new town development corporations the same facilities in respect of interest on loans as are available to local authorities.

I assume that the hon. Member has in mind that the corporations should be allowed to raise money in the market. They have no power to do so, and I cannot give it to them.

Will the Minister look into this possibility again? Does he agree that in present circumstances, if they have to borrow long term at the present high rates of interest, they are permanently handicapped? Would it not be possible to find a means to allow them to finance their development as efficiently as possible?

I appreciate the difficulty, and it has been looked at. However, I do not think there is any way round it. If they were allowed to borrow short term when interest rates were high, the Exchequer might then be entitled to lend short when the rates are low, and in the end the corporations might be no better off.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister of Welsh Affairs what action he has taken with regard to dealing with the pollution of the River Tyne.

The Northumberland and Tyneside River Board is the body primarily concerned with the condition of the Tyne, and I am sure that the Board has its responsibilities well in mind. I understand that some of the local authorities are now exploring ways of improving methods of disposing of domestic sewage, but it must be some time before they can formulate any proposals.

Might I say, being slightly surprised at that Answer, that the Minister definitely stated the other day to me that he had taken certain action with regard to asking for certain analyses? Is that not a fact, or has something happened in the meantime?

The position is that there has been consultation between the officers of my Department and local authorities concerned. Float tests are taking place under expert supervision, and we are hoping that a scheme will emerge.

Why could not the hon. Gentleman say that?

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the hon. Gentleman's reply, to which I had not the opportunity to put a supplementary question, in spite of the fact that my constituency lies along the river, I beg to give notice that I propose to raise the matter on the Adjournment.