asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what consideration has been given to the risks that may be involved to the crews of ships that will use nuclear power for propulsion; and, in view of the fact that such vessels will shortly be placed in commission, if he will take steps to have this matter placed upon the agenda of the appropriate committee of the International Labour Organisation, or referred to the chief maritime nations for consideration.

I have recently invited all the interests in this country to be represented on a committee which will advise me on all the safety problems arising from nuclear propulsion at sea and in port. Her Majesty's Government have also proposed to the contracting Governments of the Inter- national Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea that a conference should be held in 1960 at which this might be considered.

But I understand that some of these ships will be in operation next year. In view of the developments that may take place, will the Minister make sure that the health and conditions of the seamen and the effects of nuclear power upon them are discussed before these ships are put into commission?

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman did not catch the first part of my Answer, which was that, as far as this country is concerned, the Committee will sit almost at once and will make recommendations.

Will the Minister press on with this business?

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether, in the interests of safe navigation, he will cause to be displayed more prominently than at present the flag signals which indicate movements of shipping out of Portsmouth commercial basin into Portsmouth Harbour.

The display of these signals is a matter for the Portsmouth Corporation in consultation with the Admiralty. I am bringing my hon. Friend's suggestion to the notice of these authorities.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the signals as hoisted at present are all but invisible to even an experienced shipmaster entering from outside the harbour, and that any ships entering on flood tide are quite unable to stop if they find a commercial vessel coming out round that particular corner? Will my hon. Friend consider either the repeating of such signals on the Round Tower, Sally Port or on Pickfords Wharf, or a different but appropriate signal being hoisted on Fort Blockhouse, which is visible from a long way off?

While my right hon. Friend has no power to direct the Corporation to display these flags more prominently, I will bring to its notice the suggestion my hon. Friend has made.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he is now in a position to make a statement concerning the operation of car delivery vehicles under general trade licences, when carriers' A or B licences are not required; and what steps he now proposes to take to deal with this anomaly.

I am still examining possible means of removing the anomaly, and I will let the hon. Lady know the result as soon as possible.

While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for the detailed, courteous and, I think, meant-to-be-helpful reply that I received this morning, might I ask if he is aware that it is really unsatisfactory? What is the use of stating in that reply that he regards the operation of car transporters under trade licences as an abuse of the purpose for which the licences were designed if we cannot do anything about it? As I first raised this matter with him on 29th January, does he not really think that we might have an Amendment to the Finance Bill this year?

I think that when I first answered the hon. Lady's Question she was surprised that I was to do anything at all. I am now surprised that she is so impatient, because in the letter to which she refers I say that one needs to give thought to this; otherwise, in removing one anomaly we may be creating another.

Is it not the fact that these car delivery vehicles carry new cars on the basis of hire and reward in the same way as is done on A and B licences? That being so, surely it would not be so difficult to introduce an Amendment to the Finance Bill. After all, there is still some time yet before that Bill will be presented to the House. Will the right hon. Gentleman urge his Department to bring this anomaly to an end?

The hon. Gentleman will not expect me to comment on the Finance Bill.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether, in the interests of road safety, he will review the present regulations for vehicles turning on their lights from half an hour after sunset until half an hour before sunrise.

For many years, lighting-up time during winter has been from half an hour after sunset to half an hour before sunrise, and I have no evidence that any alteration is required on safety grounds.

Does not my hon. Friend agree that his own Minister's Annual Report says that a very large proportion of accidents do occur at about lighting-up time? In view of that fact, would it not be a good idea to advance the time?

I am not sure that it would assist in this matter, and it might create serious anomalies in the North to require people to drive about in full daylight with lights on.

While the Parliamentary Secretary has this in mind, could he look again at cyclists, some of whom do not light up at all?

I rather think that is a matter for the police rather than for me.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what steps he is taking to draw the attention of potential omnibus operators in rural areas to his new regulations pemitting the use of 12-seat singly-operated utility vehicles.

On the day the regulations were laid, we issued a Press notice about the changes, which was extensively quoted in the national Press. Copies of the Press notice were also sent to more than 40 organisations, and their help was sought in bringing the new regulations to the notice of all who they thought might benefit from them.

Will my hon. Friend urge Traffic Commissioners to give all possible encouragement to rural bus operators?

They have already been urged to do so, and are giving it.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether, now that the speed limit for heavier goods vehicles has been raised from 20 to 30 miles per hour, and the speed limit in certain areas is being raised to 40 miles per hour, he will now raise the speed limit of the lightest vans and similar small goods vehicles from 30 miles per hour to 40 miles per hoar outside restricted areas.

I am considering whether any change is desirable in the speed limit for light goods vehicles.

Will not the Minister gather together more opinion from the police authorities? Is it not a fact that the Metropolitan Police, for example, are in support of raising the speed limit? Will there not be less opposition from the unions in this matter than in the case of heavy goods vehicles, because these vans are mainly in the 30 miles-an-hour limit area anyway, they are very largely owner-used, and there is not the great strain on men of driving them over long distances as there is in the case of heavy goods vehicles?

I note the hon. Gentleman's support for this alteration in the speed limit. We are collecting the kind of technical advice he has mentioned, and I will give it consideration as soon as I have it.

Will my right hon. Friend resist the application of this leap-frogging principle to speed limits, which can only result in an increase in accidents?

I do not think that my hon. Friend's point is borne out by the facts.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether the Report of the Committee for the Staggering of Working Hours is now ready for publication; and if he will make a statement.

The Report is being published today and copies will be available in the Vote Office at 3 p.m. The Report shows that the campaign has made a promising start but that there is still much to be done to convince employers and staff of the advantages of staggered hours. Staggering of hours offers the best practical solution to the problem of congestion at peak hours, and at a meeting which I had last Monday with the Committee and the Chairman of Zone Sub-Committees we considered how the campaign should be developed. I have assured the Committee of my full support for its efforts, which I expect to have an increasing impact on London travel.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if his attention has been drawn to the large stop and direction lights on cars recently coming on to the roads fitted with lamps of a very high power which, in the hours of darkness, dazzle the drivers of following cars; and if, in the interests of road safety, he is now ready to make regulations laying down a maximum brilliance of such lamps, as a result of his consultation with the car industry.

We have recently circulated proposals for changes in the law relating to direction indicators, including one to limit the intensity of trafficator lights. We have also discussed with the industry the problem as it affects stop lights, and a maximum intensity has been included in the standard of recommended practice recently issued by the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders.

Does the Minister realise that we are grateful for the action he has taken to meet this very great inconvenience? I saw a car the other night with a stop light 4 in. across. It had a warship searchlight in it instead of a bulb. This is a terrible menace. I am sure that all motorists who have to drive at night will be grateful when action is taken.

Does my hon. Friend not think that the time has very nearly come when he must stop consulting and must make regulations to deal with these matters? This great diversity of lights is a real danger to motorists.

My right hon. Friend has undertaken to make regulations as from the beginning of next year with all new registered vehicles. We have every intention of keeping to that programme.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation to what cause he attributes the increase in casualties per road accident in 1957, as compared with 1956.

While there is no single or simple reason for this increase, the proportion of accidents involving more than one vehicle is increasing, and this gives rise to more casualties per accident. The increase is in line with a generally rising trend over the past 30 years, and is largely the result of the growth in motor traffic.

Is it not clear that the increase in casualties and in the seriousness of casualties per accident must be due to the greater speed at which traffic is travelling? What is my hon. Friend doing about it?

I do not necessarily agree. Although the speed is, of course, an element in the matter, my hon. Friend's deduction is not necessarily right.

In view of the fact that accidents are increasing, as might to some extent be expected with the larger number of cars on the roads, is it not time to organise again a big nation-wide road safety campaign, as was done some few years ago, getting the co-operation of the local authorities, but doing it on a much bigger scale than local effort can manage?

We are undertaking our usual road safety campaign in full co-operation with the road safety authorities and our 1,200 local road safety committees, and we are now considering whether we can give an extra impetus to it.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether, having regard to the number of road accidents attributed in 1957 to drivers making right turns without warning, he will initiate legislation making such conduct an offence, irrespective of the presence of other traffic on the road.

This matter is already dealt with in the Highway Code. I do not think that the technique of safe driving can be dealt with satisfactorily by legislation.

It has been dealt with in the Highway Code for a long time. Is it not true that in the latest report the item "Turning right without warning" shows the greatest number of accidents? Does my right hon. Friend not have some proposal to make to prevent the increase of accidents from this cause?

I sympathise with my hon. Friend, and I think that his judgment is right. I am considering whether we can do anything of this kind concerning the new motor roads.

Is that not already an offence of driving without due care and attention?

Yes, it might be.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation the basis on which he fixed the fee for the testing of motor vehicles by authorised agents at 15s.

The basis for computing the fee was the estimated average time required for carrying out the test to the standard required by the Ministry when charged at the rates generally in force in garages for work demanding corresponding technical skill.

Does the Minister recall that when the Road Traffic Bill was going through the House in 1956 the then Parliamentary Secretary, now Minister of Works, stated that on the basis of the Ministry's own testing station at Hendon, the charge for the public would be only 5s.? Here a charge of three times as much is being made by the garages. It is true that the 5s. did not include capital costs, but on the other hand there will be no, or negligible, capital costs for the garages.

I agree with the hon. Member, and I have been to the trouble of looking this up. Two figures—6s. and 5s.—were given. The 5s. was based on a testing time of 15 minutes. Having now had further practical experience, we are satisfied that the time taken for a test will be not 15 minutes but 45 minutes. Therefore, the new charge is exactly proportional to the old one.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation when it is proposed to widen and have dual carriageways on the western end of Western Avenue.

I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply given on 26th March to my hon. Friend the Member for Buckinghamshire, South (Mr. Ronald Bell).

Will my hon. Friend say how long ago it was planned to increase this road to a dual carriageway, and can he add anything about when this improvement is likely to be carried out?

My right hon. Friend has said that we have the matter under consideration now to see when, and if, we can include it in our current road programme.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary look at the Answer he gave to my Written Question yesterday, which showed that there have been 130 accidents during the last two years on this stretch of roadway? Does he not think that this calls for some work to be done?

I quite agree, of course, that it is desirable to have this work done. Our problem is one of priorities. We shall certainly have it done as soon as we can.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he has yet reached a decision in regard to the elimination of the level crossings at Brimsdown and Ponders End, Enfield; and when authorisation for the necessary work will be given.

My right hon. Friend has informed the Middlesex County Council that we are ready to consider a scheme for a new road and. bridge across the railway at Ponders End from Lea Valley Road to Nags Head Road with a road connection on the east side to the Brims-down industrial area. If the details of the scheme are satisfactory, I hope that we shall be able to approve it in this financial year.

While thanking the Minister for that reply and congratulating him on having succeeded in achieving agreement among the various parties and authorities concerned, as this scheme has been hanging fire for a very long time, may I urge him to speed up this matter as much as possible in view of the continued congestion in this area?

We shall do it as quickly as we can.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he will make a statement on the latest application of the Tamar Bridge Authority for sanction to proceed with plans and preparatory work.

I am still considering this matter.

Will the Minister bear in mind that

"Hope deferred maketh the heart sick"?

I have said that I am considering this matter, and in the road programme as a whole at least there is not as much hope deferred as there was.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he will give an estimate of the comparative cost of construction, disregarding re-siting of main services, of a pedestrian subway and ramps under a 48 ft. wide road, or other convenient width, and of the construction of a footbridge, over a similar road, level with the footwalk, the roadway being lowered to allow vehicles to pass underneath.

The latter would probably cost more than six times the former.

Would not my hon. Friend agree that bridges have proved useless if raised over the roadway? Has not the principle of lowering the road been used to some extent on the Continent? Can we not try it here?

If my hon. Friend accepts the purport of my first reply, he will realise that it is likely to cost of the order of £130,000 to do as he suggests. Clearly, we shall do much better by proceeding with pedestrian underpasses at a cost of about £20,000.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation (1) whether he is aware that the proposed widening of corners of roads at Hatfield, near Doncaster, will increase the danger from heavy traffic to pedestrians, will disfigure the village and damage historic property; and whether he will suspend the work while further investigating the local position;

The purpose of the proposed improvements in Hatfield is to improve the safety and movement of traffic and pedestrians. They do not involve the demolition of any buildings. In view of local difficulties, we are considering whether it is possible to expedite the scheme for the by-pass.

In the meantime, will the Parliamentary Secretary undertake to abandon the scheme for felling trees, removing footpaths and daubing the walls with black and white paint, which will disfigure this very pleasant village? Can he give any indication when the by-pass will be started?

No. I cannot do more than say that, because of the local difficulties about making these road widenings and improvements, we are considering again when the by-pass could be built.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what financial outlay he has sanctioned for railway improvements this year.

I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply I gave to the hon. Member for The Hartlepools (Mr. D. Jones) on 13th November last.

Is any further expenditure likely to result in an improvement in the punctuality of trains? Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a very widespread feeling that the punctuality of the nationalised British Railways is very much worse than on the railways before the war when they were under private enterprise? Can he confirm that?

Perhaps my hon. Friend has noticed the very large order recently placed for the new British Deltic locomotives by British Railways. We must look in the acceleration of the modernisation plan for increased speeds and increased punctuality. It is, therefore, to modernisation that one must look for improvements, and not take too many glances at the past.

Is not the modernisation programme being retarded by the Minister's action in restricting the amount of capital investment for the British Transport Commission this year to £145 million? Has he any evidence at all of a deterioration in punctuality to which his hon. and gallant Friend referred? Is it not a fact that figures have been published showing a steady improvement in the punctuality of the railways under nationalisation?

There is a Question about modernisation later on the Order Paper.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what progress has been made by British Railways with the capital modernisation plan.

The programme has got under way much more quickly than was originally forecast. Important matters of technical and commercial policy have been decided, and a large part of the programme is now committed.

Can my right hon. Friend say to what extent the programme is up to schedule or above schedule?

The programme is well ahead of schedule, but equally it is only fair to say that, for the next two years, cuts have been made in the level of expenditure that the railways would have liked, due mostly to the great acceleration which they have managed to put in the programme. I think the fair answer to my hon. Friend's question is that the programme is well ahead, but it is not quite so far ahead as it would have been if I had allowed the railways to spend a great deal more money than would be in the national interest at the moment.

Can the Minister say to what extent the balancing date of 1962, which was stated in the White Paper setting out the modernisation plan, will in fact be postponed as a result of the cuts in capital expenditure which he has imposed?

I have been advised by the Commission that the present cuts do not invalidate that date.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what was the level of advances to the British Transport Commission under the Transport (Railway Finances) Act, 1957, for 1958 and 1959 contemplated by the White Paper proposals for the Railways, Command Paper 9880; and under what authority he informed the Commission, in his letter of 22nd October, 1957, that the advances for 1959 would be reduced in accordance with the forecast on which the White Paper was based.

The 1957 Act authorises the Minister to make advances up to £250 million in total, leaving him free to determine what sums shall be advanced within this limit. The White Paper contemplated that in 1958 the deficit would be rather less than £60 million and would be substantially reduced in 1959.

Is this not the first time the House has been informed that the Minister proposed to limit the amounts on an annual basis rather than keep them within the total £250 million? Does this not put the Commission in a ridiculous financial position, as part of its deficit will be financed by the Treasury and part must be carried forward in its accounts? Would it not be better to meet the total deficit in the way originally intended under the Act?

No. I think that the hon. Member misunderstands me. I am saying that the Transport Commission must cut its costs by economies in order to meet the reduction which1 have indicated.

Is not the Minister putting the Commission in an impossible position? On the one hand, he says that it must keep its deficit within a certain limit and, on the other hand, he withholds the means for the Commission to reduce the deficit, first, by imposing capital restrictions and, secondly, by not allowing the Commission to put up its charges to meet wage claims.

The House must judge whether £1,500 million devoted to modernisation, spread over a number of years, I agree, and £250 million to finance a deficit is not as much as the country can at the moment afford to devote out of its scarce capital resources to this most important task.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation how far, by its terms of reference and its constitution under the Civil Aviation (Air Transport Advisory Council) Order, 1947, the Air Transport Advisory Council is expected to make a physical inspection of facilities and services provided by air operators; and what is its present practice in this matter.

The Council has the necessary powers to undertake inspections of this kind, but it is for it to decide how far this is necessary: it has not, in practice, made many such inspections.

Would it not be a rather good idea if they did? I am not criticising anybody, but with the enormous growth of the independent air operators' work in the last four or five years, would it not be a good thing if there were occasional checks on the standard of service, punctuality, and so on which they provide? Might it not be a useful check now that they are going so far?

Of course, my own Department carries out that kind of check and has only recently carried out checks on quite a number of independent airlines, as part of its normal duties. I will draw what the hon. Gentleman has said to the attention of the Council, but I think that, on the whole, working in with my Department, the inspections are carried out with reasonable regularity.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether, in view of the substantially lower running costs of the turbo-prop airliner, such as the Britannia, as compared with the United States turbo-jet airliners, he will give a general direction to British Overseas Airways Corporation to seek the agreement of the International Air Transport Association to permit it to charge fares that are related to the running costs of these airliners.

In the absence of actual experience of long-range turbo-jet aircraft in passenger service, it cannot yet be established that the costs of operating long-range turbo-prop aircraft are, in fact, substantially lower. British Overseas Airways Corporation informs me, however, that, if it is established that a sufficient difference does exist, it will, of course, consider the question of differential fares.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that one of the outstanding characteristics of these airliners is their economy of operation, which could be still further exploited with the removal of the tariff which gives unfair advantage to our American competitors?

I think that the answer is in my original Reply, where I said that B.O.A.C. would be only too willing to put forward a case for differential fares, but, of course, it must have the facts for comparison, and they cannot be had until these new long range turbo-jets are in operation.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he has now reached a decision on the Report of the Millbourn Committee on the future development of London Airport; and whether he will make a statement.

I have decided to accept the recommendations of the Mill-bourn Committee as the framework of future development at London Airport. The next phase will include the construction of additional aircraft stands in the central terminal for which tenders will be invited next month. Designs are also well advanced for a new passenger building in the central terminal for the long-haul operators to take the place of the temporary buildings on the Bath Road.

Could my right hon. Friend state the timetable of the programme for the next stage of construction which he has just described to the House?

What I said is that the most urgent thing is the new acreage of concrete for the big new jets and propjet aircraft which are coming into service. That will be followed immediately, I hope, by work on the new passenger terminal building, which also we want to have open, at least in part, within the next two or three years.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he will now make a statement about the future development of Prestwick Airport.

Her Majesty's Government have decided in principle that Prestwick Airport should be developed to enable it to accommodate the big jets. It will be necessary to lengthen the main runway and to provide a new terminal area. I have therefore given instructions for planning and preliminary surveys to proceed as rapidly as possible, while the airlines are being consulted about precise operating requirements. I shall also need to be satisfied that the jets will keep their noise to a tolerable level. I shall, of course, consult my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland at all stages.

While appreciating that statement, may I ask the Minister whether he is aware that it does not go much beyond what we had hoped for? Would he answer one or two further points? When does he think the plans will materialise? Now that we are thinking of a new terminal area, will it be sited so near to the railway as to enable passengers to be transported by rail to Glasgow? Thirdly, in considering with the Secretary of State the necessary diversion of the main road, will he think of tunnelling it under the western end of the terminal?

We have all those things under consideration. The easiest way would be for me to write to the hon. Gentleman in order to set the matter out. I try to set myself a high standard and try to do better than the hon. Gentleman hopes for.

While acknowledging with gratitude this long awaited statement from the Minister and congratulating him on his achievement with the Treasury, which no doubt took place, does this decision in effect mean that Prestwick will be at long last, instead of as hitherto a name, an international airport capable of taking the heaviest airliners the world can produce?

Yes. I think that that is a fair remark by my hon. Friend. That is the programme upon which we are starting. Whilst it will take some time to complete, we have now the necessary finance and necessary plans to go ahead.

Is the Minister aware that last week a delegation from the Russian Minister of Civil Aviation visited Prestwick and expressed itself as satisfied with the arrangements at Prestwick? Is he also aware that this announcement will be welcomed in Ayrshire? [Interruption.] This is a step forward to international friendship which the Prime Minister seeks. But can the Minister assure us that the new runway at Prestwick will take the new Russian jets on their way to America?

I have said that we are discussing the length of the runway with the aircraft operators.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation to what extent the new arrangements relating to construction within the approach areas of busy aerodromes will apply only to civil aerodromes; and which ones will be affected.

In agreement with my right hon. Friends the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Minister of Housing and Local Government, and with the Government of Northern Ireland, I have decided that the new arrangements should apply to the following civil airports operated by my Department: London, Birmingham, Southampton, Blackbushe, Gatwick, Stansted, Renfrew, Prestwick and Nutts Corner. I am consulting the owners of Manchester and Southend Airports and of Lydd about the extension of the new arrangements to these airports. In addition, I understand that similar action is proposed as regards certain of the aerodromes controlled by my noble Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty and my right hon. Friends the Secretary of State for Air and the Minister of Supply.

Whilst thanking the Minister for the composite nature of that reply, may I ask him whether he will kindly undertake, in view of the supreme importance of this matter, to keep it at the top of his list of priorities?

Yes. We have now made progress in clearly setting out the airports where this safeguarding will take place, and now we shall be able to go ahead with the actual work.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation when helicopter landing facilities will be provided on or near the River Thames in central London.

Applications by two private firms for planning permission to provide helicopter landing facilities on the River Thames in Central London are to be heard at public local inquiries arranged by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government. I cannot anticipate his decisions.

Will not the hon. Gentleman agree that such facilities ought to be available in a capital city like London? Will he also say that this interesting and useful enterprise on the part of a Battersea engineering firm generally has his approval?

I think that the approval must come from my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would like to know that the applications are for a site near York Road, Battersea, and for a floating pontoon adjoining the Albert Embankment, Lambeth.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation to what extent he agreed to the share-holding which British European Airways has taken in Cambrian Airways; what proportion this represents of the capital of the Cambrian Company; and if he will state the number of directors which he will nominate on the board of the company.

B.E.A. has recently acquired 33 per cent. of the capital of Cambrian Airways Limited. Lord Douglas informed me of this proposal, which I support. Although I have no powers to appoint any directors to the Board of Cambrian Airways, B.E.A. has appointed two directors.

Since the name of Mr. Kenneth Davies has been mentioned in a recent debate on this matter in relation to his position both on the board of B.E.A. and the Cambrian Company, is the Minister aware that those of us who know the services of Mr. Davies to aviation know the invaluable work that he has done on the Board of B.E.A. without any fee or salary and the air services that he has provided for Wales with considerable financial loss to himself? Does the Minister not think, however, that this is something of a precedent for B.E.A. and that we ought to know rather more about the details of this transaction? Also, is he satisfied that the public interest is covered?

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for what he has said about Mr. Kenneth Davies, because as he knows and as I know his financial interest in this matter has probably cost him a good deal of money. There is no question of gain so far as he is concerned. As regards the second part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, I was fully consulted by Lord Douglas, who is Chairman of B.E.A., on this acquisition, which was beneficial both to Wales and B.E.A. It was on that basis that I said in my Answer that I was fully satisfied.

Would the Minister agree that the more the Corporations get together with the independent operators and enlarge British civil aviation, the better it will be for the country?

Yes, I quite agree.

May I press the Minister on this matter? Although there is a 33 per cent. public shareholding, only one director has been appointed, and he has no direct responsibility at all. Does the Minister think that the public interest is safeguarded in this matter in view of the fact that public money is being provided?

Yes, I do, and I have said so.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he will give the number of companies in which the British Overseas Airways Corporation Holdings Limited now has an interest, the total liability represented by these holdings, and the number of directors on the board of the British Overseas Airways Corporation Holdings Limited who are not responsible, directly or indirectly, to him.

I take it the hon. Member is referring to B.O.A.C. Associated Companies Limited. This company holds interests in eighteen subsidiary and associate companies. The total liability represented by these holdings is £11,810,980. All the directors of the company are directly, or indirectly, responsible to me.

Is this not another example of the way in which there is increasingly remote control of interests that are being financed by public money? In addition, is there not private money in many of these companies, and are there not also directors appointed to this B.O.A.C. Holdings Company but not by the Minister? Is he again satisfied that the responsibility to Parliament is clearly established?

The first point in answer to that question is that the Corporations have to run themselves in a sensible, practical way as competitive businesses, and I support them in that. The House may like to know that I have received an assurance from the Chairman of B.O.A.C. that in any action proposed by the company my Ministry will be consulted and its approval obtained in exactly the same way as if the action were being taken by B.O.A.C. itself.

asked the Minister of Defence what benefits have been received since 1946 by members of Her Majesty's Forces serving in the United States of America which correspond to those provided under the National Health Service to members of the United States Forces serving in the United Kingdom.

Members of Her Majesty's Forces serving in the United States of America and their dependants receive medical treatment from the Medical Services of the United States Forces, wherever such facilities are available.

Do members of Her Majesty's Forces serving in the United States receive tax-free petrol in the same way as American forces in this country?

I was asked how these benefits corresponded with the benefits under the National Health Service. I know of no petrol-free arrangements under that Service.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what happens to British personnel where the services are not available? In his reply to the hon. Gentleman he said where the service was available. Will he tell us what happens to British personnel where the service is not available? Do they have to pay for it themselves?

Yes, Sir. They have to pay for it.

asked the Minister of Defence (1) if he is aware of the need for an improvement in the basic pay of National Service men; and what steps he proposes to take to meet this situation;

asked the Minister of Defence whether he will increase the pay of the National Service man by the same amount as was deducted from his pay recently to meet the increased National Insurance contributions.

I do not consider that there is justification for increasing the pay of National Service men.

But is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this shows a complete indifference to a very legitimate grievance? Is he also aware that when the present National Service Act came into operation the basic pay was 28s.? Is he further aware that to have purchasing power of that amount today, 42s. 8d. would be needed, and since only 3s. 6d. has been added to the 28s., the basic pay of National Service men in 1958 as compared with 1948 is 11s. 2d. less than it ought to be, and that if he cannot allow them to get on he ought at least to allow them to maintain the 1948 position?

I am sorry, perhaps my arithmetic is not so agile as that of the hon. Gentleman, but I cannot follow all those calculations. In so far as there is discrimination between the pay of National Service men and Regulars, that discrimination was started by the party opposite when they were in office.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the National Service men are suffering a particular hardship in that not only have they not had an increase in pay, but by the increase in National Insurance contribution which is deducted from their pay they are about the only section of the community at present which has suffered a relative decline in pay over the last few years?

If the hon. Gentleman is referring to the increase in the National Health contribution—

No. the National Insurance contribution.

The National Insurance contribution, of course, also applies to people outside the Services. It has never been the practice to adjust pay to meet isolated changes in the cost of living. On the general question, I consider that a man who voluntarily commits himself to a long period of service in the Forces, and intends to make a career in them, is entitled to a higher rate of pay than those who join for only two years.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I will raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.

asked the Minister of Defence if he will seek information from the General Secretary of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation on the policy of the Organisation in relation to its official publication "General Military Review", in view of the nature of the article in the issue for October, 1957, by Captain D.J. Goodspeed, advocating judicious assassination; and if he will withhold further grants to this organisation until satisfactory guarantees about the policy in regard to this publication are obtained.

This is an independent publication for which N.A.T.O. has no responsibility.

If N.A.T.O. has no responsibility, has not the Minister or this Government some control, due to the fact that Field Marshal Sir Gerald Templer, General Norstad, Commander Speidel, and most of the fifteen leading N.A.T.O. commanders are on the Committee of Patronage, and that General Twining says he is honoured to be upon it? Is it now part of our policy to use the coup d'etat as a method of military tactics during peace, and does not the Minister think it is foolish, cruel and unkind to Eastern Europe to try to start subversive movements and then leave them adrift because no great Power will go to their help for fear of a Third World War? Will he please put that point forward to the writers of irresponsible articles such as this?

I believe I am right in saying that many hon. Members have agreed to be patrons of all sorts of societies and organisations about which they know very little. I have just glanced at the article, and I am reassured to read in it that, in the opinion of the writer, democratic politicians are not worth assassinating.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment at the first opportunity.

asked the Minister of Defence (1) what study he is making of the overlapping between the Royal Air Force and the other Services in the supply, maintenance and operation of missiles;

I am not aware of any appreciable overlapping.

Whilst I am delighted to hear that from the Minister, is it not a fact that if all three Services use similar missiles, in certain cases even identical missiles, there is at least a case now for amalgamation of the technical services involved?

I do not quite understand what the hon. Gentleman is after, although I am glad he was delighted by my first reply. Missiles are supplied by a single Department, the Ministry of Supply, so there is no overlapping there. As regards maintenance, they are maintained to a very small extent, because they are highly technical, by the units which operate them. Where any major maintenance or repair is involved, the plan is that they shall be returned to the manufacturers.

asked the Minister of Defence whether he will make a statement about his recent visit to certain Western European capitals.

At the invitation of the Italian and German Ministers of Defence, I recently paid visits to Rome and Bonn for an exchange of views on defence matters of common concern. At both meetings, one of the principal topics of discussion was that of closer co-operation on research, development and production of weapons and military equipment. In each case, we reached the conclusion that the time had come to bring together the various bi-lateral and tri-lateral arrangements which have grown up during the past year between various European countries, and to put them on to a multi-lateral basis, within the framework of the Western European Union. It was agreed that the opportunity of the forthcoming meeting of N.A.T.O. Defence Ministers in Paris should be taken to put this proposal to the other member states of the Western European Union.

Whilst thanking my right hon. Friend for that information, may I ask him whether he is satisfied that the fullest use is being made of Western European Union, because it would seem that this organisation is becoming of increasing importance to the security of Britain and of Europe as the range of missiles increases and disengagement becomes a possibility?

I agree with my hon. Friend. We should try to make Western European Union more of a reality. I feel that the proposals I have just announced, if they are approved by the other member States, will increase the effectiveness and usefulness of the Western European Union organisation.

Would the right hon. Gentleman impress on the French and other Governments the desirability of some economic co-operation, since we cannot very well have military cooperation without economic co-operation, which seems to be in jeopardy just now?

I cannot go into the question of Free Trade Areas and things of that kind in answer to this Question. As regards the military aspect, closer co-operation, joint planning and allocation of tasks within the sphere of research, development and especially production will, of course, mean closer economic co-operation.

Did the Minister get any satisfaction from the German Government on the question of support costs for our troops in Germany?

Although that is not outside the scope of the Question, I think I have made it clear that that was not one of the subjects on the agenda for our meeting, although it would have been impossible to have a two days' meeting with the German Minister without touching on that topic. This question is now before the N.A.T.O. Council in Paris, and we think that is where it should be handled.

asked the Minister of Defence what was the purpose of his recent visit to Berlin.

I went to Berlin to see some of the British units stationed there.

Did the Minister see the damage which is still very obvious in Berlin? Is he aware of the feeling in Berlin that, if the East and West want to commit suicide, they should commit suicide somewhere other than in Berlin?

There is no desire to commit suicide anywhere. One of the most striking things in going to Berlin by air is the extent of the devastation which still exists on the Eastern side and the extent of the reconstruction on the Western side.

If the Minister went by air, did he not also see that there was considerable construction on the Eastern side?

Concentration camps.

I am glad the hon. Member is an admirer of the Stalin Allee.

asked the Minister of Defence to what extent he discussed the question of Germany being allowed to manufacture and use nuclear weapons in Western Germany during his recent visit to Germany; and if he will make a statement.

This subject was not discussed.

When the Minister was in Germany, was he made aware of the great strength of public feeling in Germany against the use of nuclear tactical weapons? Did he by any chance attend the big demonstration at Frankfurt where there was displayed a banner, "Better active than radioactive"? Does he not think that that is representative of the feeling of modern Germany?

As a member of Her Majesty's Government, I shall certainly not comment on public opinion in Germany about a controversial political issue. The hon. Member is as good a judge of the value of demonstrations as I am.

asked the Minister of Defence what representatives Her Majesty's Government have on the Special Science Committee of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation meeting in Paris; to what extent the hazards of radiation from the experimentation with nuclear weapons are being discussed; and with what results.

The United Kingdom has one representative on this Committee. It has not discussed radiation hazards.

Will this Special Science Committee be discussing the scientific limitations of tactical atomic arms, and will it have access to the results of the mock atomic war which the United States Seventh Army has just conducted?

Perhaps the hon. Member would put that question on the Order Paper.

asked the Minister of Defence what talks he has had with hon. Members on the Government side of the House on the subject of defence; to what extent they have been furnished with information of a confidential character; and what similar facilities will be provided for other hon. Members.

I have, at different times, had private talks with hon. Members on both sides of the House who have asked to see me; and I have given them such confidential information as I thought appropriate.

Does the right hon. Gentleman propose to proceed with these conversations, if he is asked by hon. Members from either side of the House, and to discuss information about defence? Will he see them at any time?

I am always completely accessible.

asked the Minister of Defence if he proposes to continue preparations in respect of bacteriological warfare.

For defensive purposes, it is necessary to continue research into possible methods of bacteriological warfare.

Does the Minister recollect that about a year ago he gave me an assurance that he would examine this branch of so-called defence with a view to economy? Can he tell us what its purpose is and whether it is necessary after dropping H-bombs to drop bacteria?

I cannot put myself into the mind of a possible aggressor, but an attack by bacteriological methods is not something which any responsible Government could altogether ignore.

Does the right hon. Gentleman's Answer mean that he is merely doing research into the antidotes for bacteriological warfare?

The purpose of the research is defensive, but in order to study defensive methods one has to study what the other fellow can do to you.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that Answer, I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Defence how many staff are employed at the Hertford British Hospital in Paris; what has been the average number of patients treated per week in the hospital since it was reopened in May, 1957; and what is the weekly cost of maintaining the hospital.

The number of staff is 100. The weekly average number of patients is 74. Since the hospital opened less than a year ago, I cannot give a reliable figure of cost.

Does the right hon. Gentleman think that this hospital is an economic proposition? Would it not be far better to make arrangements with either a French or American hospital in Paris for the treatment of British patients, or would it not be even better to fly such patients back home for treatment in Britain?

It is difficult to say of a hospital what is an economic proposition. I do not know exactly what the hon. Member has in mind. Whether it is run economically is another matter and something which is now before the Public Accounts Committee, and I think that the House will wish me to await that Committee's Report before commenting.

asked the Minister of Defence whether it is the present policy of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation that all forces under the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation command should be equipped with tactical atomic weapons.

It is obviously desirable that the forces of the Alliance should be equipped with whatever weapons are most appropriate to discharge their tasks effectively. With regard to tactical atomic weapons, the military authorities of N.A.T.O. are at present considering what advice they should give to the Governments concerned.

Is it correct that it is part of the present N.A.T.O. policy that all N.A.T.O. forces, including German forces, should be trained in the use of such dual-purpose weapons as the Matador, which can have either conventional or nuclear warheads?

I do not think the hon. Member is correct. The position is as I stated it. It is the policy of N.A.T.O. that the forces should be equipped with whatever is most effective for their task in the particular area in which they are. The question as to whether they should use atomic weapons is one in the first place for the Supreme Commander and his staff and is then subject to agreement by each of the Governments of the countries concerned. The hon. Member referred to Germany. Germany is one of our allies in N.A.T.O. and, subject to the military considerations to which I have referred, we want her forces to make the most effective contribution possible to our common defence.

If, as the Minister says, the North Atlantic Council is still considering this matter, was it not rather unfortunate that the Supreme Commander should have recently made a statement which seemed to prejudge the question as to whether German forces were immediately to be armed with these weapons?

Generals make so many speeches that I cannot follow them all.

Does not the Minister agree that the question of supplying nuclear weapons to Germany is not purely military but also political? Is he aware that on this side of the House we feel very strongly that no further action should be taken in this matter until at least after summit talks have shown whether there is any possibility of disengagement in Europe?

Disengagement is a geographical question. [Hon. MEMBER: "Oh."] I think the right hon. Gentleman understands. The question of the supply of weapons is a different matter. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the supply of weapons, the equipment of forces in Germany with weapons. That does not include only German forces. The problem of disengagement and the schemes which have been discussed have included the question not of just whether German forces should have nuclear weapons, but whether there should be nuclear weapons in Germany, even though operated by forces of other nationalities. That is an issue wider than that raised in the Question.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give the assurance that no decision has yet been reached by N.A.T.O. on the question, and that the military advice has not yet been tendered? Will he give an assurance that the British Government will at least take into full consideration the political dangers, at this important moment of negotiations between East and West, of providing the German forces with nuclear weapons?

This is a very prickly question, as the right hon. Gentleman knows. I should not like to give an answer off-the-cuff on a matter of that kind.

Would the right hon. Gentleman make this point clear? Apparently, General Norstad, the Supreme Commander, did make a statement to the effect that tactical atomic weapons would be supplied to Germany for the use of German forces, but the right hon. Gentleman has said in reply to a previous Question that this was a matter to be determined by the North Atlantic Treaty Council. Is there not some contradiction there, and do we understand that when General Norstad made his statement he made it entirely on his own responsibility and did prejudge a decision by N.A.T.O.?

No. I have not got the documents in front of me, but I think I am right in saying that a decision in principle was taken by the N.A.T.O. meeting of Heads of Governments last December in Paris to the effect that N.A.T.O. forces should, where the Supreme Commander thought it appropriate and subject to the agreement of the Governments concerned, be supplied with nuclear weapons. Since these, in fact, will all be American nuclear warheads, the warheads will be controlled by the United States commander concerned.