asked the Minister of Labour what steps he is taking or will take to encourage industry to draw up detailed syllabuses for the training of apprentices.

The report "Training for Skill" recommended that each industry should consider the introduction of detailed training syllabuses in the light of its own circumstances. The report has been brought to the attention of the appropriate employers and workers organisations.

Does the Parliamentary Secretary recollect that the committee which investigated this matter recommended not tests but detailed syllabuses, which would be an advantage to some industries and ought to be considered by all? What are the Government doing to carry out that recommendation? I agree that it was suggested that it should be done by industry itself; nevertheless, the Ministry can do something.

I think the Committee took the view that, while detailed syllabuses could help to maintain high standards of training, the danger was that they might lead to inflexibility unless industry were enabled to make up its own mind in individual circumstances.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he proposes to set up a National Apprenticeship Council.

The recommendation in the report "Training for Skill" that industry should set up a National Apprenticeship Council was considered by the National Joint Advisory Council last week. It was generally agreed that a central body of this nature was needed and that its constitution and scope should be considered in the course of joint discussions which are to take place shortly.

That is very agreeable news. Would the Parliamentary Secretary bear in mind that the committee also suggested that it should be done quickly?

That is very much in our mind. I could not agree more with the hon. Gentleman.

asked the Minister of Labour what is the present percentage of unemployment in the Development Areas in North-East England, West Cumberland, South Wales and Monmouth, Wrexham, South Lancashire, Merseyside, North-East Lancashire and Scotland separately; and how these percentages compare with the national average.

As the reply includes a table of figures, I will, if I may, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

asked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been called to unemployment among school-leavers in the city of Leicester and the proposal of the Chairman of the Youth Employment Committee to establish a junior training school; and what steps he will take to encourage this development.

On 14th April there were 86 young persons, including 13 who left school at Easter, who were registered as unemployed in Leicester. Of these more than half had been unemployed for less than two weeks. I have seen reports in the Press of the proposal referred to by the hon. Member but I understand it has not yet been considered by the youth employment committee.

Would not the Parliamentary Secretary agree that the Leicester suggestion is a very good idea, which he might consider and try to spread? Is he aware that The Times of 16th April described this school as "a pool of labour with trainees earning as they learn"? It seems to be an excellent idea, and I hope the Parliamentary Secretary agrees.

I assure the hon. Gentleman that I shall be particularly interested to learn the result of the consideration which the committee is shortly to give to this suggestion.

Would not the Parliamentary Secretary agree that in the last analysis only the Government can do the co-ordinating necessary for this kind of thing? I do not know whether I should refer the hon. Gentleman to The Times Educational Supplement of 28th April, in which this matter is argued cogently. I hope that the Government will take the initiative.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will state the terms of the petitions he has received from the members of the staffs of the Royal Bank of Scotland and of the British Linen Bank in regard to their negotiating machinery; and what action he proposes to take in relation to their demands.

I will circulate the terms of the petitions in the OFFICIAL REPORT. My industrial relations officer for Scotland met the general managers of the Banks on 28th April, and further discussions with representatives of the union are being arranged.

May we take it that the Minister regards it as a very serious thing that there should be employers who deny to their employees the right of proper trade union representation and have been refusing to meet their union to discuss mutual interests between both sides? Do I take it also that the Minister will continue his efforts to bring the two bodies together and to get the bank men properly represented?

The hon. Gentleman can certainly take it that I will do what I can. My answer has shown that we are meeting on the basis of the petition. I do not want to be a bore about the other point, but I must return to the point that the Ministry of Labour cannot, and should not, lay down who are to be recognised by the employers. As long as that reservation is accepted, I understand the necessity and I am prepared to see whether in discussion we can reach some settlement.

asked the Minister of Labour how many people are now registered as unemployed in the London area; and what was the figure last year.

The figure is 52,615 at 17th March, the latest date for which figures are available, compared with 44,550 at 11th March, 1957.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take note of the fact that this is quite a substantial increase on the comparable figure for last year? Will he also bear in mind that this figure includes one or two rather bad pockets of severe unemployment in certain parts of the London area, of which Brixton is an example? Will he see that as far as possible special attention is given to those pockets of unemployment which now exist?

I recognise that the position differs a great deal in different parts of the country. I could not possibly promise special consideration for London. Even the figure I have given is only 1·2 per cent., and very many areas in other parts of the country cause us much more anxiety than that does.

asked the Minister of Labour what are the latest figures for unemployment in each of his Department's administrative areas in the Honiton Division of Devon; and what were the figures for the corresponding period last year.

At 14th April, 1958, the numbers registered as unemployed were 284 at Exmouth Employment Exchange, 126 at Honiton Employment Exchange, 53 at Seaton Employment Exchange and 51 at Axminster Employment Exchange. The corresponding figures for 15th April, 1957, were 296, 134, 68 and 46 respectively.

asked the Minister of Labour what recommendations have been made by the Industrial Health Advisory Committee; and what decisions have been reached by Her Majesty's Government on the recommendations.

The Industrial Health Advisory Committee has discussed many questions relating to the development of industrial health services since it was reconstituted in 1955, but its discussions generally lead to advice and guidance as to future work in this field rather than to formal recommendations. It was with the advice of the Committee that surveys were recently made in Halifax, of conditions in factories generally, and in Stoke, of conditions in the pottery industry. The recommendations of the Committee arising out of the Halifax Survey were published last month. The Government's view of those recommendations was stated in the reply to the Question by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross) on 23rd April last. The report on the Potteries Survey has not yet been received.

While appreciating the work which has been done, in view of the fact that it is now seven years since the Dale Committee of Inquiry recommended the extension of the Industrial Health Service and that both the Trades Union Congress and the British Medical Association have recommended action on this matter, will the hon. Gentleman, as soon as the reports are to hand, speed action? Will be particularly look at the industrial health centre at Slough, which I think he will recognise as a pioneer and model in this kind of activity?

I have certainly read with interest of the work of the centre, and I hope to pay further attention to it in future. On the industrial health question, this was the main recommendation of the Halifax Survey, and, as I announced in answer to the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central, we shall do our best to put that into practice.

asked the Minister of Labour, in view of the fact that British shipbuilders booked no export orders at all during the first quarter of 1958, and that both Germany and Japan had higher productions and that Japanese prices are 25 per cent. lower than ours, if he will call a conference of both sides of the industry to investigate how far all restrictive practices can be ended, and British prices reduced in order to forestall widespread unemployment; and if he will make a statement.

As the House will recall, the general question of restrictive labour practices has been under consideration by the National Joint Advisory Council. The Council took the view, with which I fully agree, that, while it could encourage both sides of industry to set up machinery for the purpose of examining these problems, it was for each industry concerned to conduct the examination in the light of its own needs and circumstances. The shipbuilding industry is doing this.

Does my right hon. Friend recognise that these talks have been going on for a long time and that so far, I believe, they have produced no concrete results? Since I put down this Question the Cunard has cancelled an order for a big liner. The outlook in the shipbuilding industry is very bleak unless we can get our costs down. Can my right hon. Friend urge both sides to get down to it before unemployment occurs in the industry?

This is a very difficult and intricate problem. I differ from my hon. Friend only about the method of tackling it. The N.J.A.C. believes and I believe that this question can best be tackled through the industry. Recommendations were made by the Shipbuilding Court of Inquiry on this matter only a year ago, and some meetings have taken place. I agree that progress has been disappointingly slow, and I am ready to urge and encourage the parties to go further, but I believe the examination should be left to them.

Is it not a fact that previous examination of this question has shown that there is no real evidence of the actual restrictive practices about which the employers complain?

No, I could not accept that.

asked the Minister of Labour whether the United Kingdom delegates to the Governing Body of the International Labour Organisation supported its recent decision to undertake a continuing factual survey into conditions relating to freedom of association; and whether steps are being taken to submit reports for this purpose relating to territories under United Kingdom administration.

The United Kingdom Government representative supported the principle of such a survey but abstained from voting on the particular proposals put forward, which had some unsatisfactory features, especially as to the procedure to be followed. As regards the second part of the Question, it is understood that the survey will be carried out in stages over a period of time, and no reports have yet been requested from the United Kingdom.

Can the Minister give us some more information on the parts of the resolution which were regarded as unsatisfactory? Can he assure the House that Her Majesty's Government will cooperate fully in giving what reports are required for the survey and, if necessary, allowing I.L.O. representatives to visit territories under United Kingdom administration?

There were some matters regarding procedure with reference to the question of travelling missions and the scope of the suggested survey that we have found unsatisfactory, and we have made certain comments and reservations about them. Subject to that, of course, we will co-operate with the survey, bearing in mind the point of view our representative took.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that mobility of workers, in local pockets of unemployment which have developed in the past two months, wishing to move elsewhere is impeded by the waiting period of four weeks, and also by the amount offered in the lodging allowances scheme for workers who have been compelled to leave their normal areas due to redundancy; and what proposals he has in mind to remove this impediment.

I announced in the House on 25th April some improvements in the facilities offered under the Resettlement Transfer Scheme. I do not consider that a case has been established for making further changes in the Temporary Transfer Scheme additional to those I announced in my reply to the hon. Member's previous Question on 19th February. I will, however, keep the matter under review.

Does the Minister realise that the four-week waiting period cuts right across his stated objective that unemployed workers should be transferred to other work as soon as possible? Would he not agree that the 24s. 6d. given in the 1940s and the 35s. given today are quite different in financial value, and that the amount should be at least £3? Does he not realise that we are paying unemployment benefit to the men during the four weeks instead of paying them lodging allowance? Would not the latter be better?

On those two points, I have always maintained the position—which I am sure is right—that in both this scheme and the Resettlement Transfer Scheme we should not attempt to cover the full cost of lodgings. It is meant to be only a contribution, and I increased it by nearly 50 per cent. last June. I have always thought it right that there should be some waiting period, although I have reduced that recently. As a matter of fact, I have today received a letter from the T.U.C. on this and similar points. In the light of that, I will look into the matter.

Will the right hon. Gentleman agree that he has accepted the principle that the waiting should not be too long? The trade union movement is very concerned about this issue? In a short time, when he has had a look at the four-week period as against the eight-week period, will he give a further report to the House as to the way in which it is working out?

Yes, I will. In fact, extremely little use has so far been made of the scheme, and it will be interesting to see whether the improvements alter that.

asked the Minister of Labour the numbers of unemployed registering at employment exchanges in Kilmarnock and Newmilns, respectively, at the latest available date, and on the same date in 1957.

The figures were 770 at Kilmarnock and 76 at Newmilns at 14th April, compared with 389 and 37 respectively at 15th April, 1957.

asked the Minister of Labour for how long the unemployment percentage in Newcastle-under-Lyme has exceeded the national average.

Since August, 1955.

Is the Minister aware that this is almost entirely due to Government policy? There was the levying of Purchase Tax on pottery and the Government policy in regard to the building industry. A large proportion of these people are building workers. Will the right hon. Gentleman make representations to his colleagues in the Cabinet?

I am always in touch with the President of the Board of Trade on these matters, and I hope that the Bill we are to discuss later today will prove relevant.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty when he expects deliveries of all types of steel to the shipyards to be adequate to meet demand.

Production of plate and heavy sections is improving so that supplies to the shipbuilders should improve; I hope that this progress will be maintained.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty what volume of tonnage is presently on order in United Kingdom shipyards; and, taking 1957 launchings as a comparison, how long it will take to complete the present order book.

At the end of March, 1958, approximately 6·2 million gross tons of new merchant shipping were on order in United Kingdom shipyards. The 1957 launchings were 1·35 million gross tons. I am not prepared to follow my hon. Friend to the inference that it will take 4½ years to complete the present order book.

I am pleased to hear my hon. Friend's answer to that Question. Does he not agree that one of the most important things in the industry is to speed up the introduction of automative devices and to induce everyone in the industry to get rid of whatever restrictive practices there are?

There is a lot to be said for my hon. Friend's view.

In spite of the long order books, is not the absence of orders and the increase in the number of cancellations causing some concern in the industry?

The order books at the moment are about the same as they have been for the last four years, and there is no need to worry at all.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty what facilities were provided by his Department for the transport of equipment and stores for a private bird-watching expedition conducted by Mr. Guy Mountfort; what Admiralty vessel was used for this purpose; what was the amount paid for these services; and whether his consent was obtained to this transaction.

Royal Fleet Auxiliaries sail frequently to the Mediterranean. Inquiries were received as to whether any such ship might have space available to carry some of this expedition's equipment.

Is the hon. Member aware that Mr. Mountfort in his book—which, by the way, is a profit-making venture—stated that Lord Mountbatten, the First Sea Lord, used his influence in order to obtain these facilities? Is it customary for the Admiralty to provide facilities of this character for a private venture of this kind?

Yes, Sir. It is customary to provide Service facilities in certain circumstances. This was a serious expedition of an international character, the reports of which will be of value. The Admiralty has always had what it is pleased to call an indulgence rate at which freight can be carried, provided that it does not inconvenience or displace any official freight. This request was originally made by Field Marshal Lord Alanbrooke, and it was perfectly in accordance with custom to accede to it.

What does the hon. Member mean by "an expedition of an international character"? Are we to understand that if a number of people gather together and decide to proceed on a bird-watching expedition in Spain, that has international implications?

I merely meant that it was international in character. There were other nationalities in the expedition.

Are we to understand that the birds in question were wrens?

Would the hon. Member be good enough to circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the conditions under which these facilities are available to all sections of the community? Or are they the exclusive right of the personal friends of Lord Mountbatten?

I said that this authority was given with due Admiralty approval.

Is this not a perfectly normal and good piece of public relations?

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty what action is being taken to develop nuclear submarine cargo-carriers.

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave to the hon. Member for Oldbury and Halesowen (Mr. Moyle) on 23rd April.

Is it not a fact that we are now having to concentrate our limited resources of men and money on atomic submarines for war purposes? Would it not be more desirable, in the long-term interests of our shipbuilding industry and our mercantile marine, if we devoted our resources in this respect to cargo vessels for peaceful purposes and perhaps relied on the Americans for information about submarines for war?

I think the hon. Member is not quite accurate in his information. Work on the submarine is for defence purposes. At the same time, work is going ahead to produce a surface merchant vessel which will be economic. It would be a mistake to divert that work to try to produce a submarine which is also economic. Let us get the surface vessel economic first.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will make a statement on the recent acts of indiscipline committed by troops serving in the British Army of the Rhine, which resulted in the death of one soldier and severe injury to several others.

asked the Secretary of State for War what were the circumstances which contributed to the recent disturbances in which two British regiments in Germany were involved and which resulted in the death of a soldier and injuries to others.

asked the Secretary of State for War to make a statement about the disturbance at Sennelager on 13th April involving men of The King's Regiment, Liverpool, and the Gloucestershire Regiment when a British soldier was killed and five other soldiers injured.

The disturbance took place after duty hours at a camp where members of the Gloucestershire Regiment and the King's Regiment were being trained. On the evening of 13th April a party of men of the King's Regiment went to a barrack room occupied by the Gloucesters. A fight broke out in the course of which three soldiers of the Gloucestershire Regiment received wounds from which one of them has died. Four men were put under arrest. The circumstances have been investigated and a decision will shortly be taken as to the charges to be brought.

I am very glad to hear from the Secretary of State that this was a very limited occurrence between two regiments. Will he also bear in mind that it gravely reflects on the state of discipline in the Rhine Army that such a thing should happen, involving the death of a soldier? Would it not have been far better if his Department had made an early announcement that it intended to set up a court of inquiry to inquire into the circumstances and to undertake disciplinary action, if such action were necessary?

I know the House will be very glad to know that this was a completely isolated, even though tragic, incident, which flared up from one second to the next. An announcement of the fact was made and the inquiry was set in motion. I hope that I shall soon be able to decide what charges should be brought.

Does not the Secretary of State appreciate that we find it a little difficult to accept the view that this is an entirely isolated incident. There have been incidents from time to time in the Rhine Army. Is he not concerned to find out why the frequency of such incidents in this command seems to be greater than in others?

The number of courts-martial in B.A.O.R. in 1956, the last full year for which we have complete records, was fewer than in any other command.

asked the Secretary of State for War to make a statement on his recent visit to the British Army of the Rhine, with particular reference to the operational efficiency and the state of discipline of units serving therein.

In the course of my tour I visited the Headquarters, British Army of the Rhine, the Headquarters of the British Corps, two brigade groups, and a number of units. I formed the opinion that the efficiency, readiness and general standard of discipline of our troops in Germany are of a very high standard.

Had the Secretary of State for War read the Daily Telegraph leading article of 19th March before he made his trip—an article which stated that next to German units our brigades were beginning to look scruffy, that we were short of a tank with the capacity to travel long distances, that the War Office had broken its promise to introduce a replacement for the Vickers and that we were also short of an automatic rifle? Did he take those facts into account? If his trip enabled him to repudiate the statements which appeared in the Daily Telegraph, why does he not do something about it? After all, this is the chief organ of the Government. It is known to be very close to the Minister of Defence. In the interests of the British Army generally, and of the British Army of the Rhine in particular, is it not necessary at a very early stage to repudiate such statements that the units of this formation are scruffy?

The leading article to which the hon. Member refers, as I read it, did not mean scruffiness in terms of men or discipline or bearing. The article referred to the equipment of the British Army of the Rhine and compared it with that of the German army. Hon. Members must realise that the German army is a new army starting from scratch and obviously buying brand new equipment everywhere. In some respects, our equipment is bound to be lagging behind that of this new army, with its brand new equipment. The hon. Member mentioned tanks. The Centurion tank is widely acknowledged to be about the best tank in its field which exists in the world.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that these questions denigrating the Army come very badly from an hon. Member who himself has a good military record?

Can the Secretary of State tell us anything about the re-equipment of the Rhine Army with the automatic rifle, and how that is proceeding?

That is another question, and I could not give an exact date.

May I say, in reply to the hon. Member for Solihull (Mr. M. Lindsay), that he might have had the decency to read the Daily Telegraph leading article and to have realised that, in tabling this Question, I gave the Secretary of State for War the opportunity of repudiating the organ of the Conservative Party.

asked the Secretary of State for War why he caused the 7th Armoured Division, the Desert Rats, to be disbanded.

The Army is being reorganised to employ armoured and infantry brigade groups as the basic fighting formations. Although divisional headquarters will be retained, and if necessary would command a mixture of armoured and infantry brigade groups, armoured and infantry divisions such as we have known them in the past are disappearing. Each brigade group will have its individual sign and the Desert Rat will be worn by the 7th Armoured Brigade Group, so that it will continue to be worn in the front line.

While congratulating the right hon. Gentleman on that very satisfactory reply, may I ask him whether he does not think that it would have been far better to have made the announcement a month ago, and thus not have caused The Times and other papers to write leading articles drawing attention to the lack of imagination by the War Office?

asked the Secretary of State for War (1) if he will state the nature of the equipment supplied to a private bird-watching expedition conducted by Mr. Guy Mountfort; whether such equipment was surplus to War Office requirements; and what was the amount of payment received by his Department;

The supplies were some insect repellant and a small quantity of packed rations. Because of their special packing, some things of this sort made for the Army are convenient for the use of scientific expeditions, and it is our practice to help occasionally by supplying small quantities on repayment. A request on behalf of the expedition to Spain was made by Field Marshal Lord Alanbrooke. The total cost, including carriage and departmental expenses, was £12 8s. 5d., and this was paid by the expedition.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether, if I or any other hon. Member wishes to purchase certain equipment from the War Office, such as field glasses, rucksacks, fishing tackle or whatever is available, we can do so without going to the Ministry of Supply? Is it customary to do this? Further, may I ask him if he is aware that, in spite of the intervention of my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan), on the Front Bench, bird-watching expeditions are not included in the programme of the Labour Party?

This was an ornithological expedition, and if the right hon. Gentleman has in mind leading an international scientific expedition somewhere and would like the help of the War Office, perhaps we might help.

Is the Secretary of State for War aware that the reason why there is no reference to bird-watching in the programme of the Labour Party is that we have plenty to do to keep our finger on the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell)?

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Do I understand, Sir, that an hon. Member on the Front Opposition Bench has a right to make a statement of that kind, and in public, that the Front Bench is now occupied keeping its finger on my activities? Do I understand that that is in accordance with Parliamentary propriety?

I understood the remark to be jocular. It certainly could not be applied in its literal sense, and it was either metaphorical or jocular. I do not see any reason for me to intervene in a matter of that sort. These exchanges are common among hon. Members, and I do not think it was ill-natured, either.

rose—

Further to that point of order. May I direct your attention, Mr. Speaker, to the fact that my hon. Friend, like many Scotsmen, jokes with considerable difficulty?

I should be the last to make a pronouncement about a sense of humour, knowing the reputation which my race has in this matter.

May I ask my right hon. Friend if he is aware that, if the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) wishes to have any assistance in keeping his eyes on some of the pretty queer birds on his own side, we will give him every assistance?

I think we had better pass to the next Question.

On a point of order. May I ask you, Mr. Speaker, to advise hon. Members, and particularly some right hon. and hon. Members opposite, to keep their domestic quarrels outside the House of Commons?

It is no concern of mine to do that.

asked the Secretary of State for War if his attention has been drawn to a fatal accident to a civilian on Dartmoor during Army exercises; and what precautions are being taken to render that type of accident impossible in the future.

asked the Secretary of State for War when the warning flags in use on the day when a schoolboy was recently killed by shrapnel in Dartmoor National Park were last renewed; whether he will arrange for larger flags to be supplied in future; and whether early consideration will be given to the possibility of improving the present system of warnings.

asked the Secretary of State for War what is the present system of warning to civilians to keep clear of the Army firing area on Dartmoor; and whether he is satisfied that every possible precaution is taken to avoid risk of accident.

The safety precautions begin with the publication of notices in the local press and elsewhere, giving details of firing programmes. On the range itself, notice boards are placed on every track leading to the danger area. When the range is in use large red flags, measuring 12 feet by 6 feet are flown on nine of the highest tors where they are visible from every part of the range boundary. They are renewed individually when necessary. Finally, the range is patrolled before use by five range wardens mounted on ponies.

I am sure that everyone in the House will wish to commiserate with the family who lost a boy on that sad occasion. May I ask my right hon. Friend whether, as this is now a public park and as a great many visitors go there who do not necessarily see the local papers, he could suggest to the Army authorities that they might add further notices to the notices already warning people about cattle and ponies? These notices attract far more attention and can be seen more easily than some of the Army notices. May I further ask him whether he knows that the family involved met several military walking through the area, but they gave them no warning of danger?

As to the notices to which my hon. Friend refers, they are about ponies and cattle, and they are on the main highway. They warn motorists of the danger of running into animals wandering on the road. This is not where the range is situated. There is no danger on the road, because the range is a long way off it, but on every track leading up to the range there are warning notices. If my hon. Friend has in mind any particular spot at which she thinks an extra notice would be beneficial and will acquaint me of it, I will certainly look into it.

Is the Minister aware that the Western Morning News, in a news item with the heading "Danger Lurks in Dartmoor Park", said that from a distance one flag resembles a nondescript bit of washing? Will he take into account that, although large flags may be flying, mist on the high tors may quite obscure them, and will he see whether any improvements in the warning system are possible?

The flags are 12 feet by 6 feet. I am afraid I can do nothing about the mist. We renew the flags when they are worn out, but they are very large and very red.

May I ask my right hon. Friend whether it is the fact that the red flags are flying at all times whether or not firing is taking place, because that is what has been said, and, if it is a fact, does he not think that there is a very great danger of the warning being disregarded?

I can tell my hon. Friend that the flags are taken down every time the firing ceases. I think this impression has been caused because firing practice sometimes lasts a long time, perhaps a whole day, and people are apt to reach the conclusion that the flags are always there, though I assure my hon. Friend that that is not so.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will make a statement on the recent death of a 15-year-old schoolboy, who was killed by shrapnel from a bursting mortar bomb near Cranmere Pool in Dartmoor National Park.

The accident took place on the Okehampton Range on 15th April. Firing had been in progress all the morning. Visibility was good and the normal safety precautions were in operation. Early in the afternoon a family of three people entered the danger area and one of them, a schoolboy, was killed by a mortar shell. I understand that an inquest is to be held on 22nd May. I should like to express my deep sympathy with the family bereaved by this tragic accident.

While I am sure that the whole House will concur in the Minister's expression of sympathy with the family, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he will take into account the fact that a national park and an artillery range are mutually incompatible? Will he institute a new inquiry into the use of Dartmoor by the Services in order to ascertain whether some other arrangement, outside the Dartmoor National Park, is possible?

This area of land has been used by the Army for exercises since 1872, and the area was designated as a national park in 1951, but this designation was understood at the time not to restrict the use of the land for military purposes.

asked the Secretary of State for War, in view of the number of men who fainted at the parades held last year in connection with the Trooping the Colour ceremony, what proposals he has for preventing similar incidents this year.

The precautions which are always taken to reduce the incidence of fainting on parade were explained by my predecessor in answer to a Question on 24th July last year.

But does the Minister recollect that, after these incidents, with photographs of the soldiers being published in the Press, his predecessor issued instructions to commanding officers that no disciplinary action was to be taken against the men for fainting? Is that to be the practice this time?

It is laid down in standing Orders that men who faint on parade shall not be punished unless the collapse is caused by their own negligence or excesses. Steps have been taken to see that these provisions are well known to all concerned.

asked the Secretary of State for War in how many instances the Army Pensions Office miscalculated officers' retired pay under the Pensions (Increase) Warrant, 1956, through assuming wrongly that the warrant permitted the rescindment of previous option for New Code rates; and what was the average amount per annum of the error.

There were 210 such cases, and the average overpayment was about £11 a year.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of one instance, which was brought to my notice, of an officer, who has only his retired pay to live upon, who had been led to think, two years ago, that he had an extra £13 a year, but who has now been told that he will not receive that and has been asked to repay the two years' overpayment? Since the mistake was made by his Department, does not my right hon. Friend think that he should be more generous to these retired officers?

We are, naturally, bound to recover public funds which have been paid out improperly. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] If they are paid out improperly, we are bound to recover them, wherever the mistake may lie. We are, therefore, asking the retired officers concerned to pay the money back, but we are spreading the repayments over a period, and we shall deal sympathetically with any cases where even a deferred payment would cause hardship.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether the statements made to the New York Press by General Sir Gerald Lathbury, Director-General of Military Training, to the effect that independence has been granted to some African countries too quickly and that Africa is wide open to Communism, were made with his authority.

I have seen a Press agency report of these remarks but not a full account. General Lathbury is at present in Canada. I have asked him for details, and I will let the hon. Member have the full facts as soon as they are available.

Is it to be assumed from the reply of the Secretary of State for War that these statements were made without his authority? If so, may we take it that he will ensure that serving generals do not give expression to personal opinions which can give rise to wide misunderstanding?

No, Sir; what I intended to imply was that I had not had a full report of what the general said.

Which countries in Africa did the general have in mind? Was he, perhaps, referring to the Union of South Africa?

asked the Postmaster-General if he will now reconsider his decision to curtail Saturday postal collections and deliveries during the summer holiday season in the towns of Exmouth, Budleigh Salterton, Sidmouth and Seaton.

No, Sir; I should not be justified in making a special exception of these towns. Mail formerly delivered by the second post on Saturday is available to people who need it if they call at the Post Office. Collections are still being made at the same time as before from the posting boxes at post offices in the towns.

Does my right hon. Friend appreciate that a large number of visitors during the summer months come to all these resorts from the Midlands and Northern England, and, of course, they cannot avail themselves of the slight concession he has made unless they know that a letter is coming? Will he look into the matter once again, in view of the special needs in this area? Further, will he state what progress has been made in the tempo of service from those parts since the days when we relied on horse-drawn traffic for mail collection and delivery?

The real difficulty about a second collection on Saturday stems from trying to give the Civil Service generally, and the Post Office in particular, the same pay and conditions as obtain in outside industry. So long as we try to do that, we shall always come up against these difficulties.

asked the Postmaster-General if he will arrange a second postal delivery on Saturdays to hotels in Southampton, in view of the fact that the hotel industry has a seven-day working week.

No, Sir; in this respect I cannot treat Southampton any differently from other towns. Correspondence formerly delivered by the second post on Saturday is available to people who need it if they call at the post office.

Will my right hon. Friend look into the particular case of Southampton, which is a port where visitors to the hotels are, largely, people passing through the port as travellers who stay only one night? It is extremely difficult to notify cancellations, particularly over Bank Holiday week-ends. Will my right hon. Friend look at the matter again to see whether some additional arrangement could be made?

I honestly cannot promise that one could treat South-hampton differently from other places, because its hotels would be placed in a more advantageous position thereby, which would not, on the whole, I think, be fair.

asked the Postmaster-General if he is aware of the inconvenience caused to the business community in Glasgow by the late delivery of mail from Leicester and Nottingham which frequently is not delivered to Glasgow until the afternoon following the day of posting; and what steps he is taking to have a regular morning delivery.

Yes, Sir. These delays, which I regret, have been due mainly to the late running of the train used, especially during the bad weather in recent months. We are in close touch with British Railways about this matter, and I am hopeful that there will be an improvement.

In the event of my right hon. Friend not getting a satisfactory solution from the Ministry of Transport, will he seek some other means whereby this very important business connection between England and Glasgow could be improved?

I shall make strong representations to my right hon. Friend, but the matter is not very easy, because the modernisation plans on the railway involve a certain amount of engineering work between Warrington and Euston, though I think that we shall, ultimately, have the benefit of that work.

Has the Minister heard of any other delays caused in transporting mail on British Railways, apart from this instance? Are these delays special to this route?

Delays are largely, of course, between Warrington and Euston, and this, of course, affects a number of places. As I said, it arises from the modernisation plan.

asked the Postmaster-General when he expects to provide a rural telephone kiosk at Ventonleague, Hayle, Cornwall.

By about the end of June, if, as I hope, there is no difficulty in finding a suitable site.

Will the Minister take note that the people in the locality will welcome this news?

asked the Secretary of State for Air on how many occasions in the last three months false alarms have been sent to planes in the air over the United Kingdom carrying nuclear weapons, as a result of the appearance of meteors on the radar screen.

None, Sir.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that satisfactory reply, but is he aware that there is still widespread concern about reports of false alarms in North America and about the unexplained situation that hydrogen bombers in North America have been alerted whereas hydrogen bombers here under the same command have not?

That is a very different question. I have no responsibility for bombers flying from American bases.

asked the Secretary of State for Air what is his Department's policy on circulating within the education service of the Royal Air Force discussion pamphlets produced by organisations such as the Bow Group and the Fabian Society.

We do not normally circulate pamphlets of this kind. One pamphlet by the Bow Group, containing information which was thought likely to be helpful to education officers consulted by service parents about boarding school education, was circulated early this year. However, after considering the circumstances, I have now decided that this pamphlet should be withdrawn.

Is it not a great shame that this pamphlet should have been withdrawn? Would it not be far better to circulate other pamphlets on education so that there may be discussion within the Service on this very important subject?

I think that it is in the general interest of the education services within our Armed Forces that we should not circulate pamphlets coming from political sources. It is hardly fair to leave it to the judgment of education officers as to how far politics may be accepted in individual pamphlets. Of course, these pamphlets are available to people who are interested; they can write and apply for them under their own arrangements, rather than through our circulation.

asked the Secretary of State for Air whether, in consultation with the Secretary of State for War, he has now worked out and forwarded to the Minister of Supply a firm operational requirement for a successor to the Beverley aircraft.

asked the Secretary of State for Air whether he has yet stated an operational requirement for a successor to the Beverley aircraft.

I cannot, at present, add to the answer which my right hon. Friend gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice (Mr. Wall) on 19th March.

Since so much of our whole defence strategy depends upon air mobility, will not the Minister give an undertaking to speed up the statement of requirements? Surely, it cannot be in transport—it would be most alarming if it were—that the Minister of Defence is determined to substitute missiles for manned aircraft?

My right hon. Friend dealt with this matter on 19th March and he pointed out that the Beverley would continue to give very useful service into the mid-1960s. Although I realise that there is a need to hasten the result of our consultations with the War Office, I do not think that one should over-emphasise the need for speed.

But is the Under-Secretary not aware that these requirements have to be stated many years ahead and that time lost now will be very hard to catch up in future?

I will bear in mind what the hon. Gentleman says.

Will not my hon. Friend agree that there is great need for co-ordination between the military application of the follow-on aircraft and the civil application, and that it is very important that the two things should be brought together?

That point has to be borne in mind, and, of course, the closest consultations with the War Office are necessary also before we can come to an agreed conclusion.

asked the Secretary of State for Air if, when a requirement for a long-range freighter is defined for Transport Command, he will ensure that it has a civil as well as a military use; and if he will, in this connection, bear in mind Short and Harland's design which serves both purposes.

Future Transport Command requirements for freighters are now being studied. We shall certainly see whether any type capable of meeting civil as well as Service needs would be suitable. The claims of the Britannia 533, to which I take it my hon. Friend is referring, will naturally be taken into account.

I would like to thank my hon. Friend for his reply, which I am sure will give satisfaction in Northern Ireland. In view of the location and facilities of Short and Harlands, second to none in the country, does my hon. Friend not consider that it would be a tragedy if the firm went out of production, especially as this is one of the few industries in Northern Ireland which are not dependent on sea transport?

asked the Secretary of State for Air when there is to be a decision on a replacement for the Canberra bomber.

As the House knows, we are examining the various possibilities, but it is bound to be some time before we are in a position to reach conclusions.

Whilst hoping that the decision is not being unduly delayed because of what appears to be a constant wrangle between the Minister of Defence and the Service Ministers, may I ask to what extent the N.A.39 is proving a possible successor to this aircraft?

On the question of speed, the Canberra, particularly in its latest mark, will continue to serve very useful operational purposes well into the 'sixties. The N.A.39, to which the hon. Gentleman referred, is one of the aircraft under consideration. I think that I cannot say more at this stage.

Will the Under-Secretary of State not continually repeat the phrase that a certain aircraft will serve well on into the 'sixties? We well realise that. What we are interested in is a successor, because plans have to be made now.

What is equally important is that we should get the aircraft which will really meet the very advanced operational requirements of the 'sixties and not get a second-best. We must take mature consideration before placing orders.

Is my hon. Friend aware that this matter has been under consideration for over six months, that very little progress has been made, and that industry in some respects is being misled? Will he ask the Minister of Defence to bring some co-ordination into these matters so that workers in the industry know where they are?

I will certainly bear that point in mind.

asked the Secretary of State for Air whether, in order to assist the examination of incentives and disincentives to recruiting, he will arrange for a survey to be made among serving airmen and airwomen.

The Grigg Committee is undertaking a comprehensive study of recruiting factors. We have recently conducted a limited survey to weigh up the reasons which lead airmen and airwomen to prolong their service or to leave at the end of their initial engagements. This was carried out, under the direction of our scientists, at representative stations, and I would like to thank the 2,500 serving men who helped. We are now examining the findings, which are also being made available to the Grigg Committee.

Based on the results of the survey, will the hon. Gentleman take practical steps to encourage serving personnel to remain in the Service for longer periods?

We are anxious to do just that, and that is why we carried out this survey, on which we shall certainly take action.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation to what he attributes the 1957 increase of 10·2 per cent. in road accidents at night, having regard to the fact that road accidents during the day decreased by 0·9 per cent.; and what are his proposals for combating that trend in the rate of night accidents.

There have been more road accidents at night because the rate of traffic increase has been rather faster by night than by day. In addition, the figures for 1957 are higher because of a change in the definition of hours of darkness during summer time.

Do not these figures show very eloquently the drive that is necessary in the improvement and uniformity of street lighting? Can my hon. Friend give us hope of any progress in that respect?

Yes, Sir. I did not like to lengthen the list of action that we are taking, but, in fact, I have a conference of the London authorities tomorrow to discuss that very question.

Has the Minister taken note of the figures in the Report issued by his Ministry for 1956, which show that accidents between the hours of 10 and 12 at night are at least 50 per cent. higher than the highest figures in the middle of the day? Does not the jump in the number of accidents from between 9 and 10 p.m. to the high figures between 10 and 12 p.m. show that the closing of the public houses has something to do with it?

I think that it probably has.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he will now state when the trunk road improve- ment scheme from London Road to Milehouse Lane in Newcastle-under-Lyme will be carried out.

I cannot yet say when it will be possible to include this scheme in the road programme.

Is the Minister aware that a deputation is coming from the Newcastle-under-Lyme Council to his Department on 9th May and that he could save it a journey if he would give the decision now? In any case, is he aware that the deputation is confident that it will be able to persuade him, if he is reasonable, that this project should be given overriding importance?

We have already done a good deal for the roads of Newcastle-under-Lyme. The hon. Gentleman's officials can be confident that they will receive a sympathetic reception and that progress will be made.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation when the report of the Anderson Committee on traffic signs is likely to be published.

The Committee is making good progress, but I cannot yet say when its Report will be available.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the Committee is working on the problem of trying to standardise traffic signs as between the Continent and this country?

The Committee's immediate task is to advise us on the best road signs for the new motorways, and it is aiming to do that in an interim report, probably this summer.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what plans he has for a motor road to serve the South-West of England.

Motor roads are proposed linking Bristol with London, Birmingham, Exeter and South Wales. In addition, it is proposed to improve the direct route from London to Exeter by a new road from London to west of Basingstoke. These proposals are contained in the appropriate development plans.

Would my hon. Friend agree that the North, North-West and West are catered for to a greater extent than the South-West, which is largely ignored, and that there are long, winding roads leading to the South-West? Will he try to increase the possibility of getting better roads there soon?

I agree that there are some long, winding roads leading to the South-West. I sometimes use them myself. We must, however, have a priority list, and the commercial traffic is largely on the Midland and Northern routes.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he will state the percentage of oil imported into this country which was carried in ships flying the British flag in each of the past four years.

It is estimated that in the years 1954, 1955, 1956 and 1957, 41 per cent., 40 per cent., 38 per cent. and 36 per cent. respectively of the oil imported into this country was carried in ships flying the British flag, but that the actual quantity of oil imported in such ships remained about the same.

May I ask my hon. Friend if he is satisfied that sufficient is being done to maintain a modernised and fast fleet of tankers to carry the oil on which our economy so greatly depends? Would he accept that it is a basic strategic and commercial interest of this country that our proportion of the world's tonnage should not be constantly allowed to dwindle over the years?

I agree that the position requires very careful watching. The total British tanker tonnage has increased during the four years covered by my hon. Friend's question by about 21 per cent. Many British tankers, of course, are employed on voyages which do not bring them to the United Kingdom. The figures in my Answer relate to oil imports, which have increased from 35 million tons to 39 million tons during the years relating to my hon. Friend's Question.

May I ask my hon. Friend if he will bear in mind that complementary with this problem is the question of dry docks? May I have an assurance that the Government are not going to mess about with dry docks and that we shall have appropriate finance to ensure that we have modern dry docks to make us fully competitive in the markets of the world and able to maintain our traditional sea routes?

Dry docks are very important, but they are not my responsibility.

A bad reply.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he will give the reasons for the cut back in the railway brake conversion scheme; and what proportion of the total sum allocated to the British Transport Commission for purposes of modernisation he expects to be used for paying compensation for orders cancelled as a result of the slowing down of this plan.

The programme for converting existing wagon stock was reduced as a result of the capital investment cuts for 1958 and 1959. In addition, the programme for fitting 16-ton mineral wagons has been interrupted because it has been found that the braked wagons cannot be handled by some of the older type tippler gear at industrial plants until some modification of the gear has been carried out. A substantial cut back in the programme as a result of this difficulty is unlikely. Any financial arrangements to be made in respect of uncompleted contracts are a matter for the Commission and their contractors, but I am advised by the Commission that the cost to them of the revision of the contracts will be very small in relation to the total sum.

Is the Minister aware that there has been considerable anxiety in some quarters and on both sides of industry about the likelihood of men being put out of work because of these two factors and the possibility of large sums of money being involved by the payment of compensation? Can the Minister, in giving us that statement, which we should welcome, assure us that the British Transport Commission and his Ministry will do their best to minimise both of these factors and get this work moving again quickly?

Certainly, Sir.