asked the Minister of Labour if he is aware of the widespread anxiety arising from the continuing trend of increasing unemployment, the reduction in overtime and the increase of short-time working; and if he will make a statement on the present position and future prospects.

I am aware that anxiety has been expressed about the employment situation in recent months.

In the week ended 24th May the number of operatives working overtime in manufacturing industries was 180,000 less than three months earlier. Overtime was, however, still being worked by nearly 1,300,000 operatives or 22 per cent. of those covered by the returns. The seasonal fall in unemployment, which I told the House in February might be less than usual, was delayed until last month, when a fall of 18,000 occurred. While there was a fall of 25,000 in the number wholly unemployed between February and June, there has been an increase in short-time working which was reflected in a rise of 30,000 between these two months in the numbers registered as temporarily stopped. The number in civil employment is still high.

The usual seasonal increase in unemployment in the second half of the year must be expected to begin after July, but it is too early to say whether or not it is likely to be more than usual this year.

Is the Minister aware that, in view of the upward trend of unemployment for so many months, the information he has just given is very welcome? Whilst the difficulty of forecasting the future can be appreciated, can the right hon. Gentleman say whether this fall is likely to continue, or does he feel that the 2 per cent. may be increased in the next few months?

I think that the unemployment figure may go beyond 2 per cent. as the seasonal factors continue to move against us, as they will in a few weeks' time. The latest figures, as the House will have seen from the newspapers this morning, are a little more encouraging. They show a little improvement in the adverse trend of the last few months.

Would not the Minister agree that, although we are all happy to see the reduction of 18,000 in the number of unemployed, there are now about 44,000 more unemployed than at the same period last year and that the number on short-time work increased by 50,000 during May? For those reasons, would the right hon. Gentleman impress upon his colleagues in the economic Departments the need for widening the scope of industrial activity?

We are conscious of that, and the statement of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor on 3rd July showed that.

Does not the Minister think, in view of the information he has given us, that the time has now come to limit immigration into the country?

asked the Minister of Labour whether a reply has yet been sent to the Governing Body of the International Labour Organisation, answering its inquiry as to whether full freedom of movement has been restored to trade union officials in Northern Rhodesia; and what are its terms.

As the next meeting of the Governing Body's Committee on Freedom of Association will not take place before November, the International Labour Office has been informed that it is proposed to defer a reply so that account may be taken of the latest information then available.

Can the Minister say why it has taken so long to prepare a reply in view of the fact that this inquiry was made some months ago? On the wider question, can the right hon. Gentleman state the reasons why in this territory normal standards of freedom of movement of trade union officials do not apply?

The reason it has taken a long time is that a fuller explanation was asked for on the second point, which is the one to which the hon. Gentleman refers in his Question. I am sure it is right that we should consult carefully with the Governor of the territory concerned before we make our reply in November. On the subject of complaint, that, of course, is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies.

asked the Minister of Labour how many vacancies for boys have been notified to the Youth Employment Bureau in Blackburn; and how this compares with the number of school leavers who will be requiring jobs this mid-summer.

On 2nd July there were 43 notified unfilled vacancies for boys. More are expected to be notified in the next few weeks. About 380 boys will be requiring jobs this summer and it is thought that about 100 of them may have to wait for a time before they find employment.

Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that this situation is alarming? Is not it a fact that the bulge in the schools is now passing into the labour market at the very moment when, on the one hand, National Service is coming to an end and, on the other, there is a recession in the cotton industry which is intensifying the problem locally? Will the right hon. Gentleman get his Department to enter into consultation at once with the Ministry of Education and any other appropriate Department to ensure that we do not have a repetition of the situation that existed in the old days in my constituency when young boys were leaving school with no prospect of employment and no alternative but to mess about in the streets?

I think the hon. Lady would be wrong to paint this picture too black. Last year, as she knows, there were rather fewer school leavers in her area and all but a very few of them were placed in employment within two months of leaving school. I suggested in my Answer that it will, I am afraid, take a little longer this year, but I am as convinced as is the hon. Lady of the need for finding employment for these boys and girls as soon as we possibly can.

asked the Minister of Labour if he is satisfied that there are sufficient youth employment officers employed by his Department to deal with the increasing number of young entrants to industry; and if he will make a statement.

Careful consideration has been given to the staff which will be required by the Youth Employment Service to deal with the additional numbers of school leavers during the next few years, and I am satisfied that adequare provision is being and will be made.

Will the hon. Gentleman, while bearing in mind the increasing number and the importance of the educational aspect, also consult the respective Ministers in England and Wales and in Scotland about making the best use of these young people by helping and advising them about jobs consonant with their educational attainments?

As the hon. Gentleman probably knows, those education authorities in Scotland which operate the Youth Employment Service have been asked their requirements of employment officers in the next few years. They have made certain suggestions which we think are reasonable, and therefore the service to help these boys and girls will be increased as they have suggested.

asked the Minister of Labour (1) in view of the growing problem of finding suitable employment for school leavers, if he will make a further statement;

(2) what action is being taken in conjunction with the joint committee of industry and trade unions to deal with the provision of employment for school leavers.

The best assessment I can make at present is that there will be difficulty in some areas, but the general prospects of employment for this year's school leavers are satisfactory. The job of placing them in employment may take a little longer than in some recent years and the choice open to them may not be so wide. The local Youth Employment Committees on which employers and workpeople are represented have an important part to play in developing employment opportunities for young people.

Is the Minister aware that in certain parts of the country the youth employment officers are getting really concerned at the impact of the school bulge upon youth employment in the community? While recognising that this is a problem which perhaps at the moment is not immediate, may I ask whether the Minister agrees that its ultimate effect over the next two years will be challenging? In view of that, may I express the hope that the Government will not regard this matter with complacency?

I do not disagree with anything the hon. Gentleman has said. He will probably agree that the availability of employment opportunities is a rather more important factor than the bulge itself, although of course both are important. I can assure him that I feel no complacency about this. I regard it not only as a great challenge; I regard the bulge itself as being an opportunity for industry, and I hope industry will take advantage of it.

Is not the Parliamentary Secretary aware that in South Wales the outlook for school leavers is worse than it has been for twenty years? Will the Government make some plans to provide for this situation?

I had a chance of seeing some of the problems of South Wales when I was there. I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree that this depends very much on the general employment position and the coming of industry to South Wales. This is the real answer to his problem and I hope more industry will be forthcoming.

asked the Minister of Labour what decision was reached at the 42nd Conference of the International Labour Office on international action to establish occupational health services in places of employment.

The Conference adopted a series of general conclusions directed towards a recommendation on the organisation of health services in places of employment and decided to place the question on the agenda of its next session for a second discussion.

While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for that reply, may I ask him to inform us whether the I.L.O. has been supplied with a copy of the recent report on industrial health services in this country, and particularly whether its attention has been drawn to what, if I may say so, is the admirable pioneer work done at the Slough Industrial Health Centre?

Yes, Sir, I am confident that it has a copy, but I will make sure.

asked the Minister of Labour (1) what decisions were reached at the 42nd Conference of the International Labour Office regarding a convention to prevent discrimination on grounds of race, creed and sex;

(2) what decision was reached at the 42nd Conference of the International Labour Office on a convention on safeguarding the conditions of plantation workers.

The Conference adopted a Convention and Recommendation on discrimination in respect of employment and occupation and on the conditions of employment of plantation workers.

The text of these instruments will be included in a report by the Government delegates to the Conference, which will be laid before the House in due course.

While welcoming that news, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman to give the House an assurance that Her Majesty's Government will ratify these instruments for the abolition of discrimination and for minimum conditions for the plantation workers?

I think the hon. Gentleman must wait until this is done in proper form and the announcements are made to the House. Of course the Government delegates voted for all four of these instruments and we have no objection in principle, though in detail some of them may cause a little difficulty.

asked the Minister of Labour how many persons whose last jobs were in the steel industry are now unemployed; and how many still in the industry are working on short time.

asked the Minister of Labour the latest figures of unemployment and short-time working in the steel industry, compared with similar figures of a year ago.

On 16th June, 1958, 9,040 workers, whose last employment was in the iron and steel industry, were registered as wholly unemployed, compared with 3,190 on 17th June, 1957. In the week ended 24th May, 1958, 25,697 operatives were working short-time compared with 5,556 in the week ended 1st June, 1957. I regret that separate figures for the steel industry are not available.

Will the right hon. Gentleman agree that those figures from such a vital industry as the steel industry, which is the genesis of so much of our manufacturing industry, are most alarming, and does he know that the Paymaster-General gave me a reply yesterday that they were now running at some 80 per cent. of capacity, which experts tell me is an overestimate? In view of all this, does not the Minister agree that extra effort must now be made to increase our steel production again, otherwise the engineering and other manufacturing industries will be in great trouble before long?

I certainly agree that these figures are distinctly disturbing. On the wider Question which the hon. Gentleman put to the Paymaster-General yesterday, I am in constant touch with my right hon. Friend and with the President of the Board of Trade and with my other colleagues in the Government on all these questions and on how best we can stimulate activity.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in fact, there are any plans for stimulating activity, in view of the reply he gave in the House some time ago that the Government had plans ready for such an occasion?

I do not think one can go into all the details. That point is covered by my previous Answer and the answer is, yes, we have planned as far as possible what we can do.

asked the Minister of Labour what response he has received from industry and commerce to the suggestions contained in the Carr Report, Training for Skill."

The Report has been widely circulated among employers' associations and trade unions. In general, the recommendations call for examination and action within each individual industry, but the Committee considered that there was need for a central body to keep apprenticeship and training arrangements under review. This will be a function of the new council which is shortly to be established and to which I referred in the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Meriden (Mr. Moss) on 25th June.

While appreciating that the council has still before it the essential suggestion of action, may I express the wish that the Minister will expedite as much as possible the convening of the meeting of the council and its functioning, in order to ensure that the problem of school leavers and employment, which is now growing, will be met as effectively as possible?

As regards the meeting of the proposed council, I told the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friend a fortnight ago that it is likely to meet and come officially into being later this month, so it will not be very long delayed. I assure the hon. Gentleman that I am convinced of the urgency of the problem, and I am sure the council will be too.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will give the figures for employment in the pottery industry in Stoke-on-Trent for December, 1955, December, 1956, and December, 1957, and the number of workers unemployed and temporarily stopped for the latest available date.

Statistics of employment in local areas are obtained only in respect of the end of May in each year. The figures for 1955, 1956 and 1957 for the china and earthenware industry in Stoke-on-Trent were 58,470, 57,170 and 51,630 respectively.

On 16th June, 1958, the numbers of persons on the registers of Employment Exchanges in Stoke-on-Trent, whose last employment was in the china and earthenware industry, were 785 wholly unemployed and 614 temporarily stopped.

Do not these figures imply that the blood-letting which the industry received as a result of the imposition of the 30 per cent. Purchase Tax two or three years ago has done it a great deal of harm? While it is fair to say that the industry is today fairly prosperous, is it not now at a much lower level?

It is certainly true that it is at a lower level, but some of the indices of prosperity are today more comforting than they were a year or so ago.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the figures he has just given of people unemployed and temporarily stopped do not include large numbers of married women not registered at the employment exchanges; and that, therefore, in an industry like pottery, in which women are employed, that fact makes the position very much more serious?

With respect to the hon. Lady, I tried to make this point in connection with the cotton industry a week ago. It is not true that married women are not included in the figures. If they are looking for another job and if they are registered, they are included. These figures include applicants for employment, whether or not they are qualified for unemployment benefit.

asked the Minister of Labour when he hopes to publish the pilot health survey of the pottery industry; whether the publication will be fully comprehensive; and whether he will make a statement at this stage of the general findings.

The Inspectors of Factories have now completed their survey of the pottery industry, and I am arranging for the results to be considered at the next meeting of the Industrial Health Advisory Committee in October. Further action will be settled in the light of the views of that Committee and of consultation with both sides of the pottery industry.

Would it be true to say that our suspicions that this is a most interesting report are correct, and, if that be so, may we have an assurance that it will be printed as fully as possible, so that we shall be able to study it with care?

I should be surprised if the hon. Member does not know a good deal about this report. I have not read it myself yet, but I am told that it is one of quite exceptional length. I dare say that the presentation of it for publication will be a little difficult. After the consultations which I have indicated have taken place, we will take a decision on publication.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he has now succeeded in trebling the size of the Chemical and Engineering Branch of the Factory Inspectorate; and if he will state the number of new inspectors recruited for the General Inspectorate since the survey of 1955.

Since the publication in October, 1956, of the White Paper on the Staffing and Organisation of the Factory Inspectorate the number of engineering and chemical inspectors in post has been increased from 18 to 24 and 6 more are in process of appointment. An open competition to fill the remaining vacancies will shortly be advertised.

Since the same date, 61 inspectors have been recruited into the General Inspectorate.

In view of the fairly reassuring figures which the right hon. Gentleman has given to the House, may I ask him if he can guarantee to us that his Department is getting a sufficient priority in obtaining these highly skilled people, such as engineers and chemists?

I can give the hon. Member an absolute assurance that the comparative slowness of recruiting, which I regret very much, has nothing to do with economy or anything of that sort. I have always had full support from the Treasury in this matter.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he will publish in the report the areas which are covered by the chemical inspectors?

I am not quite sure it would be possible to do that; but, if I may look into that point, I will write to the hon. Member.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he has considered the views expressed in recent annual Reports of the Catering Wages Commission on the subject of workers in unlicensed residential establishments; and if he will now state what action he proposes to take.

The Catering Wages Commission has repeatedly drawn attention to the need for revision of the Catering Wages Act, 1943, and to the unsatisfactory position of the Unlicensed Residential Establishment Wages Board, which during its period of activity from 1946 to 1949 never submitted any recommendations to the Minister. Since 1950 the Board has not been reconstituted.

It does not appear that the problem can be solved without legislation. When Parliamentary time permits, and that will not be possible this Session, Her Majesty's Government propose to repeal the Catering Wages Act, abolish the Catering Wages Commission and to convert into Wages Councils the four Catering Wages Boards now functioning. The wages and holiday regulations made under the Catering Wages Act will remain in force.

Only after an Act has been passed will it be possible to appoint a Commission of Inquiry under the Wages Councils Acts to consider whether a Wages Council should be established for workers in unlicensed hotels and boarding houses. Such a Commission of Inquiry would be free from the legal restrictions which have hampered the work of the Catering Wages Commission.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that, as I am quite sure it will, the whole catering industry—and, no less, my hon. Friends on this side of the House—will be delighted with what the Minister has just said about the future of this important industry? Since the Minister has covered a great deal of ground in his Answer, may I pose this further question to him?

With regard to the Catering Wages Act, may we take it that legislation will be introduced in the forthcoming year, and that it will cover what one might call the whole of the ground which is dealt with in the Reports of the Catering Wages Commission and will be a comprehensive review?

Legislation, when it can be introduced, will take the form of an amendment to the Wages Councils Acts. I cannot give a guarantee about the time, beyond what is included in my main Answer, but it is certainly intended to cover all the main points to which I have referred in reply to the Question.

May I, first, thank the right hon. Gentleman for giving the House such early notice of his intention to repeal the Catering Wages Act and to take the other steps which he has indicated, which will give us good time to consider the implications, because, as he will appreciate, this may be a very controversial matter?

May I ask him whether the decision he has made has been based upon consultations between all the parties concerned in the industry—that is to say, representatives of the organised workers, hoteliers and others—and whether it is on their advice that he has proposed to do this?

May I also ask him if he would recognise that, while his hon. Friend the Member for the Isle of Thanet (Mr. Rees-Davies) may be particularly interested in protecting the interests of those who own and control these establishments, we on this side of the House, and I hope also the right hon. Gentleman himself, are very much more concerned with protecting the workers? Will the Minister see that this is adequately done?

I understand the point which the right hon. Gentleman has made. On the question of consultation, this is a Government decision which I am announcing. I have discussed this, particularly in the light of the series of Reports, with which the House is familiar, with Professor Shimmin, the chairman of the Catering Wages Commission. As to the position of the fifth board, dealing with small boarding-houses, it is really impossible, as has been pointed out on many occasions, to solve it in the situation as it is at present, and, therefore, after a great deal of thought, I have brought forward this solution. I believe it is the most flexible way of dealing with the problem, because it has been made clear that the Catering Wages Act, 1943, is too inflexible for the catering and tourist industry.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give us some assurance that this new legislation which is contemplated by the Government, no doubt, after careful thought by the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues, will not lead to any reduction in the present wages standards, but, on the contrary, may lead to some improvement?

I made it clear in my Answer, and, because it is important, I will repeat the sentence:

"The wages and holiday regulations made under the Catering Wages Act will remain in force."

What I have said today does not affect that in the least. As to the future, the Wages Boards, which will become Wages Councils, are the main authorities in matters of that sort. I do not direct to them what their standards should be.

Can the right hon. Gentleman be more specific on the point raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) about the attitude of the trade unions concerned? Has he discussed this with them, and have they given an opinion?

No, Sir. I have based this on the position as laid down in the Reports of the Catering Wages Commission over a period of years. I have had no discussions beyond that informal discussion which I have already indicated.

In view of the decision and the right hon. Gentleman's reply, may I ask him whether it is his intention, as is normal when dealing with legislation of this kind, to have informal discussions with both sides of the industry before finally making up his mind on the nature of the legislation?

Yes, indeed. I am putting these matters to the National Joint Advisory Council in a fortnight's time.

asked the Minister of Labour how many persons were unemployed in the London area at the latest available date, and at the same date last year.

The figure was 54,322 at 16th June, compared with 32,526 at 17th June, 1957.

While the Minister can say that the position is worse in other parts of the country or the percentage there is higher, would not he agree that, although there has been an improvement this month compared with last month, the unemployment figures in London are higher at present than they have been for a long time in a comparable month of the year? What will he do about it?

The hon. Gentleman has given the answer to his own question very well.

asked the Minister of Labour the numbers of persons unemployed at the Redruth and Camborne Employment Exchanges at the latest convenient date; and the percentages.

The numbers were 372 at Redruth and 270 at Camborne at 16th June. The percentage unemployed for Redruth and Camborne combined was 4·2.

Will the Minister take into account the fact that this is about two and a half times the average for the South-West? Will he consult the President of the Board of Trade to ascertain whether something can be done to divert new industries to my constituency and Cornwall generally, because we are frightened when we see so many new factories going up between Reading and London?

This is a long-standing problem made more difficult by the remoteness of the area. The area is one of those that we had in mind in connection with the recent Distribution of Industry (Industrial Finance) Bill. I am in touch with my colleagues, particularly the President of the Board of Trade, about the matter.

asked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been drawn to the steadily rising unemployment figures in Glasgow; whether he is aware that a substantial proportion of these figures refer to tradesmen, such as painters, who are normally busy at this time of year; and what steps he is taking to find alternative work for them.

Although unemployment in Glasgow is higher than it was a year ago, it has declined very slightly in the last two months and the number of painters unemployed is small. My officers will of course continue to do all they can to place unemployed workers in vacancies notified to them by employers.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that reply, but it amazes me in the extreme. Is he aware that at least one big firm in Glasgow, Scottish Signs, which does not object to being quoted, has told me that painters are normally very hard to get at this time of year but this year they are ten a penny? What is more, semi-skilled men who normally find no difficulty in getting work in the yards at this time of year are also in the market. Will the right hon. Gentleman look into the matter?

I will certainly study what the hon. Lady says. I understand that the number of painters unemployed in Glasgow is 52.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the pattern of employment and unemployment is now worsening in the sense that people in manufacturing trades and industries are falling out of work and the tendency is for them to go into professional work, so that we are losing the basis of our manufacturing capacity?

That is more properly a matter for debate. I dare say that it will arise a good deal in tomorrow's debate.

asked the Minister of Labour how many men are at present deferred from call-up; and what is the current intake of men whose deferment has expired.

The number of men whose call-up was deferred on 31st March, 1958, the latest date for which information is available, was 403,020. The call-up of men whose deferment had expired averaged about 2,800 a month during April and May, 1958.

In view of those rather formidable figures—formidable to the Services but not to those to whom deferment is granted—will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that he is not allowing deferment to get so out of hand as to make it necessary for men born in the last quarter of 1939, for example, to be called up? Is this one of the factors which is still keeping those men in a state of suspense?

No, Sir; it is not a factor in that. I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a break-down of the 400,000, which is of considerable interest. It includes the indefinite deferments of coal miners, those engaged in agriculture, seamen and so on. Postponements on account of hardship are not included, and that figure is only about 2,000 at present.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will make a further statement on the preparation of new Shipbuilding and Ship-repairing Regulations.

Yes, Sir. The revised version of the preliminary draft of the Shipbuilding and Ship-repairing Regulations referred to in reply to the hon. Member on 23rd April, 1958, was published on 20th May and those concerned have been invited to submit observations on this new version by the end of this month.

While I fully recognise the aid given by the Department to expedite these proceedings, will the Department do its utmost to ensure that we get these very desirable Regulations as soon as possible, because we recognise that there has been appalling delay?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty what official contracts for shipbuilding and ship-repairing have been placed with firms in the port of Lowestoft during the past twelve months; what contracts have been entered into for the present financial year; and whether, having regard to unemployment in these industries, he will take steps to ensure for them a reasonable share of Admiralty contracts.

During the past twelve months a contract has been placed for the docking and refit of an oil lighter. For the reasons I gave to the hon. Member during the debate on 19th June, I can hold out little hope of sufficient contract work for the Royal Navy becoming available in the immediate future to enable further work to be allocated to Lowestoft.

Is the Civil Lord aware that his Answer will be received with very deep disappointment not only in Lowestoft but in the smaller shipyards generally? Is he aware of the importance of Admiralty contracts to the smaller shipyards and of the very fine service that Lowestoft in particular has rendered to the Admiralty in the past, particularly since the war? Will not he agree that as our order books do not extend very far—they are empty beyond 1959—the Admiralty ought to think a great deal about it because this may lead to the closing of some very important auxiliary works there?

I am very sympathetic towards places like Lowestoft which have in the past relied to a certain extent on Admiralty contracts, but, with the reduction in the amount of money the Admiralty has, I am afraid there is nothing more that we can do. We have great difficulty, but we try to spread the small amount of money around as fairly as we can.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty how many orders for new tonnage to be built in British shipyards have been cancelled this year so far; and what is the total value of the orders so cancelled.

Eighteen licences, totalling approximately 200,000 gross tons, for new merchant ships to be built in United Kingdom shipyards, were cancelled during the first half of 1958. The approximate total value of these cancellations was £25 million.

Can the Minister say whether there is yet any slackening in the cancellations?

I should like notice of that question.

Does not the Minister think that a number of these cancellations could be avoided if the naval slipways at Devonport were made available for the commercial building of craft? Is he aware that it is because of delays in deliveries that these cancellations arise?

I could not agree with that at all.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty the number of orders placed with British shipbuiders and the amount of tonnage ordered this year, as compared with the number and amount for the corresponding period last year.

Fifty-six new orders, totalling just over 130,000 gross tons, have been placed so far this year, compared with 159 orders, totalling 1,326,000 gross tons during the first half of 1957.

Can the Minister say whether there are any recent signs of an improvement in the placing of new orders?

Not without notice.

Will my hon. Friend bring these figures to the notice of his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and point out to him that possibly some improved rate of depreciation allowance for ships might be a great help in this matter?

I will certainly bring these figures to my right hon. Friend's notice, but this is not a problem which arises only in this country; it is an international problem.

Has it not dawned on the Admiralty and the Government generally that these cancellations of shipbuilding orders in the United Kingdom will continue and will become a very grave problem until we solve the problem of the flag of discrimination and the flag of convenience? Why do not the Government take their courage in both hands, if they have any courage, and ask the United States Government to be reasonable with the United Kingdom?

That is another question. We had a debate on that subject a week or two ago.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is yet in a position to make a statement about the dockyard new construction programme for 1958–59.

There is a programme of new construction, including three frigates, now going on in the dockyards. While I cannot give details about any future programme, I can assure the hon. Member that, as I told the House during the Navy Estimates debate, it is our intention to make use of the dockyards for new construction as far as possible, without undertaking the very considerable capital re-equipment, which would be required for further expansion in that direction.

Can the Minister say whether two of the three frigates are to be built at Devonport or not?

One is being laid down at Devonport and the other two are at Portsmouth.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty to what extent any pre-production or production orders have so far been placed for the Blackburn N.A. 39.

An order was placed in July, 1955, by the Ministry of Supply for a development batch of twenty N.A. 39 aircraft. No production order has yet been placed.

Can the Parliamentary Secretary tell us why no production order has yet been placed? In debates we have been promised that these aircraft would be forthcoming. Can he explain why they are not being ordered?

The aircraft flew successfully only at the end of April, and the time is not yet ripe for placing production orders.

Can my hon. Friend confirm that the trials are proceeding satisfactorily and that the Royal Navy still badly needs these aircraft?

Yes, Sir; certainly. The trials are satisfactory, and there still is a strong naval need for the N.A. 39.

Is there some internal controversy about the aircraft? Is not it correct to say that the Minister of Supply has had some difficulty with the Royal Air Force about the provision of the aircraft? Has that now extended to the Admiralty?

I have just said that the Royal Navy has a need for the aircraft. What goes on between the Ministry of Supply and the Royal Air Force is not a matter for me.

Can we have an assurance that the Royal Navy will order these aircraft and that its order will not be dependent upon their being sold in America?

I do not think there is any question of the order being dependent upon sales in America, though it would be nice if they could be sold there. The naval order is not dependent upon sales in America.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty the number of battleships, cruisers, destroyers, frigates, fleet minesweepers, and motor, gun, or torpedo boats that will be disposed of in the year 1958.

Decisions have been taken to dispose of 5 cruisers, 7 destroyers, 33 frigates, 9 ocean minesweepers and 31 fast patrol boats and motor, gun, or torpedo boats.

Is my hon. Friend aware that these figures, taken together with the figures of ships scrapped in 1956–57 show that a half to a third of the offensive strength of the Royal Navy has been disposed of without replacement? That excludes frigates and minesweepers, which are purely defensive vessels. May we have an assurance that adequate replacements are being provided to strengthen the offensive side of the Royal Navy?

I know the concern which is felt about the position of the Reserve Fleet, but I am sure that my hon. Friend realises that in present circumstances we must reduce the Reserve Fleet if only to maintain and develop the Active Fleet. In doing this, we discard only those ships whose condition or characteristics appear to be of least use. For instance, all the ships that I have mentioned except eighteen of the patrol boats are of prewar or war-time construction. It is, of course, the intention to sell rather than scrap the patrol boats. With regard to replacements, this year and next year 2 aircraft carriers, 2 cruisers, 13 destroyers or frigates, 16 minesweepers, 17 miscellaneous craft and a number of submarines will come into service for the first time either as new ships or completely modernised.

In view of this great reduction in the number of ships, how many admirals will be available for scrapping or disposal?

That is another question, but I hope that the hon. Member saw recently that we have already reduced the number of admirals by fourteen this year.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty whether the further modernisation of H.M.S. "Ark Royal" will include the provision of lifts.

It is intended that "Ark Royal" should be taken in hand in September for a special refit. This is not a complete modernisation. During this refit modifications will be made to the forward and after aircraft lifts and to one of the bomb lifts. No new lifts are being installed.

May I ask the hon. Member to consider whether he or the First Lord of the Admiralty should not consult the American naval authorities on the subject? I am informed that the American aircraft carriers have passenger lifts. Surely in these days the British aircraft carrier ought not to be behind any carrier.

I did not realise that the hon. Member was referring to passenger lifts or crew lifts. Her Majesty's ships are supposed to be manned by young and ablebodied seamen.

It is a new ship.

The "Ark Royal" is not a new ship. I have seen reports giving rather damaging comparisons between United States carriers and our own, particularly about replenishment, but we are developing new replenishment techniques, and I recently attended an exercise where the time was reduced by half. I am also told that an aircraft carrier recently embarked at sea in a few hours stores which it would have taken two days to embark if she had been alongside. I am sure that our American allies would be the first to admit that most of the important recent operational developments in carriers have been British inventions.

asked the Secretary of State for War the total original cost of the 1,250,000 pairs of boots and 1,080,000 half-soles which have been found to be surplus to requirements.

The original cost of the boots was about £2 million and of the half-soles about £250,000. All, or nearly all, the half-soles will be kept for future use.

Will the Secretary of State for War give the House some information about what action has been taken towards those in his Department who had these boots produced knowing full well that they would never be required? In view of the fact that the boots have been in stock in a depôt near Burton-on-Trent for over two years, will he say what is to happen to try to prevent an undue waste of public money in selling them?

As the hon. Member knows, I cannot discuss the Report of the late Auditor-General at present, because it is being discussed by the Public Accounts Committee and will be presented to the House.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will reconsider his decision rejecting the claim to a disability pension of Mr. E. P. Le Fleming, arising from his Army service; and whether he will arrange for an appeal to be heard by the Pensions Appeal Tribunal, so that this man can exercise the same right of appeal as those whose cases are dealt with by the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance.

For reasons which have been explained in correspondence with the hon. Member the disability suffered by Mr. Le Fleming is not regarded as being attributable to war service.

The Pensions Appeal Tribunal was set up to consider cases dealt with by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance, and this is not such a case.

There is a special consideration, however, in this case, in that Mr. Le Fleming was born in Egypt and was called up in that country. Soldiers called up in Egypt were at one time given the right of appeal in pensions matters to an independent referee appointed by the British Embassy. These arrangements exist no longer, but because Mr. Le Fleming might once have benefited by them, I am prepared, if he so desires, to seek an independnt adjudication in this country on similar lines.

I should like to thank the right hon. Gentleman for that reply. I am sure that everyone would agree that a man who joined the British forces abroad ought to have the same rights of appeal as a man who joined in this country.

asked the Secretary of State for War if he will now make a statement about the derequisitioning of the La Salle College, Hong Kong.

I am afraid I am not yet able to add to my previous Answers.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in the twenty-seven years of its existence the college has been used as a school for only nine, that it has been requisitioned since 1949 and that in the Hong Kong Legislature several debates have taken place on the subject of derequisitioning? Cannot his Ministry decide now on what date they will hand it back as a school?

It has already been announced that we are determined to hand this building back. We realise the importance of this college to the citizens of Hong Kong and we are anxious to hand it back as soon as possible. On the other hand, we have a considerable number of troops in Hong Kong and they must have hospital facilities, and until we can devise some other way of meeting the need for hospital facilities, I am afraid that it will not be possible to release this building. We are doing our best to give it up as soon as possible, and I will make a further statement as soon as I am able to do so.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will make a statement about the changes in training payments to the Territorial Army.

We are providing enough money this year for what is considered to be the necessary amount of training. It will cover an average of 13 days weekend training for officers and 16 days for other ranks, over and above the attendance at annual camp and evening drills. Broadly speaking, this is the same amount of out-of-camp training as was carried out in 1956.

While appreciating that the Secretary of State cannot countenance what might be called training for the sake of training, may I ask whether he can assure us that this reduction, or apparent reduction, will have no discouraging effect on Territorial Army recruiting, which has been so encouraging during recent months?

We have fixed this at what we consider to be the level to provide the necessary amount of training. If we discover that it does not provide sufficient time, we will certainly review it again, but, broadly speaking, it will provide the same amount of training as was done by the Territorial Army in 1956.

asked the Postmaster-General when he expects to provide an adequate central post office for the new township of Kirkby, Lancashire.

There are at present three branch offices and two sub-post offices in Kirkby, and these meet requirements reasonably well. A new central post office will certainly be required when the new township has developed further. This project is still, however, at the planning stage, and I cannot yet fix the timetable.

As both the Postmaster-General and his hon. Friend the Assistant Postmaster-General have Merseyside constituencies, will he kindly arrange for one of them to look at the utterly inadequate conditions provided in the main post office in the area—and particularly at the facilities provided for the staff in cold weather? Will he also study the sickness rate arising from people being absent with colds as a result of those conditions?

I will certainly arrange for the post office to be looked at. I agree that the present facilities are inadequate, but when the new Crown office is built it will replace the present inadequate facilities.

asked the Postmaster-General how many towns with a population of over 40,000 have no central post office.

I could not obtain an exact answer without a great deal of inquiry, but most towns of the size mentioned have a centrally-situated post office.

Would not it be better if the Postmaster-General devoted his energies to building post offices instead of doing this research? Will he look again at his Answer to Question No. 42—in which he says that he can do this only when the town has developed further—since its population is about 40,000 and the existing services are utterly inadequate?

The population is now 37,000, and it is rising to 60,000. It is hoped to start building round about 1960 or 1961, and the Ministry of Works is making a comprehensive plan for Government offices in the town centre.

asked the Postmaster-General if he will consider introducing a standard size envelope and encourage its general use by giving it a reduction in postage stamp duty.

The development of postal machines is likely to make some modification of the present sizes and types of envelope very desirable, and the subject is now being studied both in the British Post Office and in the Universal Postal Union. But we must await the results of these studies before deciding what should be done, and I see no prospect at present of any development which would permit a reduction in postage rates.

Will my right hon. Friend believe me when I say that I did not expect that he would announce any postal reductions today in answer to this Question? Nevertheless, will he press on with the investigation, bearing in mind the fact that technical skill and modernisation have enabled him to reduce our telephone charges and his customers are expecting them to have the same effect on our correspondence costs?

I can assure my hon. Friend that we shall press on with our experiments. We intend to take a town of reasonable size and try out a standard envelope and see what impression we can make.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that this investigation has been going on for at least ten years—long before I became Postmaster-General?

What did the right hon. Gentleman do about it?

—long before I became Postmaster-General. Is there any possibility of the International Postal Union agreeing in the near future to a standard size of envelope?

I should not like to be responsible for saying what the International Postal Union is likely to decide, but I can tell the right hon. Gentleman that we, in the British Post Office, will make this experiment.

The right hon. Gentleman has no powers.

asked the Postmaster-General if he is aware of the heavy burden now falling on the business and professional communities by the present rates of postage, especially for packages between two and four ounces; and how soon he anticipates that still further efficiency and improved methods will enable some reduction to be made in postage rates.

The higher charges for postal packets were the fairest we could devise to meet increased costs. We shall spare no effort to improve methods and increase efficiency, but I see no prospect at present of reducing postage rates.

Is not it a fact that from a costing point of view within the Post Office business letters are carried at a profit and private letters at a great loss? Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that the scales are not weighted rather too heavily against the business community?

Yes, I am quite satisfied on that point.

asked the Postmaster-General what kind of special stamps he is issuing in celebration of the British Empire Games.

Three special double-sized postage stamps in the 3d., 6d., and 1s. 3d. denominations to mark the British Empire and Commonwealth Games will be put on sale on 18th July; details of the designs were published on 4th July.

Can the Minister explain why he has given three special-sized stamps to Wales? I have no objection to Wales getting the stamps, but does the Minister know what the Scots will say when, Wales having got the stamps, he refuses to provide Burns stamps? Is not this adding insult to injury?

The stamps are not to commemorate Wales; they are to commemorate the British Empire and Commonwealth Games, which happen to be taking place in Wales. In any case, these Games are an event, and the Post Office has often issued stamps commemorating events, whereas Burns is a person—a very notable person, I agree—and the British Post Office has never issued a postage stamp to commemorate a person.

I have full sympathy for my hon. Friend's desire for a Burns stamp, but may I express my gratitude to the Postmaster-General for having provided stamps for the British Empire Games, in which teams from thirty-seven countries within the Commonwealth, and from all the Continents, will be taking part?

asked the Postmaster-General whether a telephone subscriber who dials a shared service subscriber and does not get any tone is automatically charged for a call for the unsuccessful attempt.

Yes, Sir. But only if certain faulty conditions exist in the shared subscriber's circuit, the chances against which are 5,000 to one. With other types of fault, should these occur, the subscriber's meter does not record the call.

asked the Postmaster-General if he will take steps to enable the British Broadcasting Corporation to fulfil its duty to the people in Sutherland and other Highland counties who are denied television because there are not enough of them to make the service pay, in view of the fact that its present policy is at variance with the conception of a nationalised broadcasting service.

The B.B.C. has much in mind the needs of the Highlands but it regrets that because of limitations on its capital expenditure and its existing commitments, it does not expect to be able to start any extension of its television service to this area before at least 1960. Resources available for the extension of the television service are not unlimited, and I am sorry to say that there is no prospect of earlier provision.

Does my right hon. Friend need to plead lack of finance? Has he noticed that a television programme company has made a net profit of £4 million this year?

That may be so, but that is not relevant to the capital expenditure of the B.B.C.

Does not it reveal that there is a considerable amount of money in the industry? Is it not within his powers to get hold of some in order to provide these people with the service to which they are entitled?

The Postmaster-General has no power to expropriate people's profits.

asked the Postmaster-General which areas of the country have not yet been provided with any television transmission; and what is the total population of such areas.

Most of the Highlands and Islands of Scotland, the East Borders of Scotland, Central Wales and parts of North and South-West Wales, parts of Fermanagh and Tyrone, the Peterborough area and the extreme west of Cornwall, are at present beyond range of television, although within some of these areas there are people receiving signals of varying quality. The total population concerned is about 900,000.

Will the Postmaster-General refuse to provide a channel for a third programme either to the B.B.C. or the I.T.A., until these areas get at least one programme?

I quite agree with the importance of these areas getting a programme—and the B.B.C. is pressing ahead as fast as it can—but I should not like to give an undertaking of that nature.

Do I understand from that reply that the right hon. Gentleman will be considering—sympathetically or otherwise—an application for a third programme in the densely populated areas, to the detriment of those areas which have no programme?

If the B.B.C. or I.T.A. asks for a third programme, I shall have to consider it.

Is the right hon. Gentleman now in a position to say when Central Wales will get a television programme? It is important for the rural population in that area at least to know something of what is happening in the outside world, in order to stop them leaving the area.

I agree that it is desirable that people in that part of Wales should know what is happening outside, but I should be grateful if the hon. Member would put down a special Question in respect of any area which he has in mind.

asked the Postmaster-General whether he has yet received any advice from the Television Advisory Committee on the allocation of further channels in Band III for the provision of a third television programme.

It has advised me on the technical point that it is possible to allocate channels in Band III to provide a third television service with substantial national coverage. It does not advise me on who should operate such a service.

Among the advice that the right hon. Gentleman has received, does the Advisory Committee suggest that a 100 per cent. coverage is possible with the present two programmes if a third programme is provided on Band III?

The Committee did not mention the existing channels. The four channels of Band III which will be available when we move the people at present using them would allow for a coverage of between 95 per cent. and 98 per cent.

The right hon. Gentleman has not got my point. I asked whether or not the use of those four channels by the I.T.A. or the B.B.C. for a third programme would prevent a complete coverage by the other two programmes.

Nothing in respect of the four channels has any bearing upon the other channels.

asked the Postmaster-General What proportion of the population has been provided with two television programmes.

At present 75 per cent. of the population can receive both B.B.C. and I.T.A. programmes