asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many interceptions of telephones and letters he authorised during 1957.

It would not be in the public interest to give the figures for which the hon. Member asks.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the Report of the Committee of Privy Councillors gave us the figures from 1937 to 1956 without any apparent hurt to the public interest? Would not it be in the public interest to indicate to what extent he is taking into account the recommendations in that Report, and at least say whether the figures for this year are higher or lower than those for last year?

No, Sir. I am afraid that would not be in the public interest. In one of the paragraphs of its Report, paragraph 121, the Committee stated that it was of opinion that it would be wrong for the figures to be disclosed by the Secretary of State at regular or irregular intervals in the future. Under the circumstances, I think that I must follow the advice of the Committee.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he has yet reached a conclusion on the desirability of amending the law relating to suicide and attempted suicide; and if he will make a statement.

No, Sir. My study of this question suggests that in its practical aspects the problem is largely one of ensuring that those who need care or treatment to prevent them from endangering themselves or others in fact receive it. In general, where this can be done without the intervention of the courts proceedings are not taken, but there is a residue of cases in which the person concerned cannot be given, or will not accept, care or treatment without the intervention of the courts. I shall continue to study this aspect of the matter and I am in consultation with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health upon it.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman taking rather a long time to reach a conclusion on a matter where the overwhelming weight of opinion is in the direction of reform? If the Government are not prepared to take the initiative in this matter, can he say what would be their attitude towards the initiative being taken by a private Member?

I cannot state what my attitude would be towards the initiative of a private Member until I know the nature of that initiative. I do not know whether the hon. Member is aware that the Joint Committee of the British Medical Association and the Magistrates' Association has commended the law and practice in Scotland in this matter. The reason I am not going any further in answer to the hon. Gentleman is that we are at present carefully considering that with a view to seeing what we might do about it.

Will not the right hon. Gentleman hold out a little more hope in this matter, particularly as involved and responsible organisations are taking the view that they are? Cannot we get more in line with other countries which never regard attempted suicide as a criminal matter? Cannot the right hon. Gentleman hold out more hope than he has indicated at the moment?

It so happens that in 1956, the last year for which I have figures, proceedings were taken in 613 cases of attempted suicide out of a total of over 5,000, and only 6·7 per cent. of these proceedings resulted in sentences of imprisonment, and there is a certain limit to that. But I am considering the whole question in the light of what I have said to the hon. Member for St. Pancras, North (Mr. K. Robinson).

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, whether his attention has been called to the decision of the Coseley Urban District Council to approach the Urban District Councils Association requesting support for legislation to prevent the sale of air rifles to persons under the age of 18 years; what additional information he has received since 3rd April regarding injuries caused by air rifles; and whether he will now reconsider the possibility of introducing legislation to amend the present law in this respect.

The answer to the first part of the Question is "No, Sir". In reply to the second and third parts of the Question I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (Mr. Skeffington) on 17th July.

Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that air guns manufactured today are infinitely more powerful and dangerous than those produced when we took great pleasure in possessing them? Will not he also agree that almost every day we read reports in the Press about great damage being done and injury caused to animals by children who possess these weapons? Is not the right hon. Gentleman further aware that in the Urban District of Coseley about £300 worth of damage was done to a new lighting system? Does not he think that some form of registration might be considered so as to limit the use of these dangerous weapons by young people?

The existing law prohibits the purchase or hire of air guns by persons under 17, and I gather that the main amendment proposed in the Question would be to make the age limit 18. At present I could not go further than I have done, but if the hon. Gentleman cares to send me the information to which he referred in the first part of his Question. I shall be glad to receive it.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that legislation on this subject is contrary to the law as laid down in the Firearms Act, and that it ought to be necessary for a person to obtain a licence before being able to purchase an air gun? Is he aware that at present a person can buy an air gun without a licence but cannot use it without a licence? Would not the right hon. Gentleman consider changing the legislation so that it conforms with the Firearms Act?

I notice that the hon. Lady asked a Question of my hon. and learned Friend the Under-Secretary of State on this matter and we are looking at this point. But I cannot hold out any hope for the time being of her suggestion being accepted.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware of the difficulties confronting cinema proprietors who provide more than the minimum number of exits required by law for child audiences; and whether he will introduce amending legislation.

My right hon. Friend has seen a report of the case which I think the hon. Member has in mind. The matter appears to be one for consideration in the first instance by the local licensing authority.

Is not the hon. Lady aware that it is an absurd position at present; that if a cinema—as in the case of the Belgrave Cinema in Leicester—has more than the minimum number of exits required, the proprietors are compelled to have an attendant at every door? Is she aware that the authorities responsible for fire precautions are asking that cinemas should have many more exits? Is not it just a capricious and silly thing for a prosecution to be conducted against these people when there are sufficient exits from the cinema, and more attendants there than are required by law, and to attack them because they have additional exits at this cinema for the purpose of safety?

The hon. Member will be aware that there are two sets of regulations involved, which complicates the issue. The regulations for the welfare of children in cinemas require the number of attendants to be not less than the number of exits. I understand that the number of exits in this cinema is six. The regulations of the Secretary of State for safety in cinemas would have required a minimum of three. I understand that the licensee is asking the local authority to go into the matter with a view to relaxing the conditions and my right hon. Friend would prefer to await the outcome of this application before further action is taken.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I propose to raise this matter on the Adjournment at an early date.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many boys who have been sentenced to Borstal are in Wormwood Scrubs awaiting transfer.

On 22nd July there were 216 boys in the Borstal reception centre in Wormwood Scrubs. Of these 134 had been allocated to a training Borstal and were awaiting vacancies.

Can the Home Secretary say whether these boys are able to receive any constructive training while they are in Wormwood Scrubs? Has he any plans for reducing the number of boys kept in this prison for such long periods pending transfer to Borstal?

In this case the boys are in a Borstal reception centre, which is not quite the same as when they are in a prison. Even when they are in a prison, we try to keep them separated from the ordinary prisoners. The opportunities for training are limited, as they are in Wormwood Scrubs only for about ten weeks, but if the hon. Lady desires detailed information I will attempt to give it to her.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is now the average time between the sentencing of a boy to Borstal and his arrival at a Borstal institution.

The average time between sentence and transfer to a training Borstal is about 10 weeks for boys sentenced in the London area and about 15 weeks for others. London boys spend all of this time, and other boys a period up to 5 weeks in a Borstal reception centre.

Would not the Home Secretary agree that this long period in prison vitiates the constructive help that boys may expect to get if they could be transferred more quickly to a Borstal centre? What plans has the right hon. Gentleman for reducing this long wait?

The real difficulty is the increase in Borstal commitals. For example, in the second quarter of 1958 there were 824 boys so sentenced against a figure of 528 in the corresponding quarter in 1957. The hon. Lady asks what we are doing. We have already had to transform four prisons into training Borstals to try to meet this extra need, so that the House can appreciate that it is a difficult situation.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has now completed his consideration of the Report of the Select Committee on Obscene Publications; and when he hopes to introduce legislation on the subject.

I am still considering this Report and I cannot yet add to the Answer which I gave on 18th June to a Question by my noble Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Viscount Lambton).

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that this would be a suitable subject for Government legislation in the coming Session? Is he aware that three efforts have been made by private Members; that we now have had this wide-based Select Committee which, with the assistance of two successive Under-Secretaries of State in the Department, approved the Report as a whole, and that we hope that he will bring forward Government proposals in the autumn?

I did say when I answered my noble Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed that we were obliged to the Committee for this valuable Report. It would be a euphemism to say that the question of legislation would be non-controversial, bin that does not mean that we shall not have something to say about it before too long.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will instruct the Metropolitan Police to send as soon as possible to owners of cars which they have towed away a statement showing in what way the car was considered to be causing an obstruction at the time it was removed.

My right hon. Friend sees no justification for asking the Commissioner of Police to do this. Drivers are informed orally why their cars have been removed: and where a summons is issued it contains, of course, full particulars of the charge.

I do not wish to object to the police using these powers in general and I do not think that these proposals would be fully practicable, but is not there a danger, in that in many cases the judgment which the police have to use in deciding whether to tow away a vehicle cannot be contested, and does not have to be defended if the police do not decide to prosecute? Could the situation arise in which the police, if the owner of the car wished it, could be made to prosecute?

The police have to remove obstacles, and, in the nature of things, it is impossible for their judgment to be defended there and then. But the question of the guilt of the offender is decided when the matter comes to court, and particulars of the offence are given to that offender.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will use his influence to accelerate the production of the Report of the Cambridge Department of Criminal Science on crimes of violence.

The Department of Criminal Science is aware of the public interest in this problem, and of my own anxiety to have the Report on the study of crimes of violence in the Metropolis as soon as possible. The Department has been engaged on other studies of interest to the Home Office, which are reaching, or have just reached completion, and I understand that it will shortly be able to devote all its resources to the study of crimes of violence. I have no doubt that the work will be done with as much speed as is compatible with the care and thoroughness which it requires. In the meantime, I have received preliminary reports on some aspects of the study and I hope to receive others as the work proceeds.

In view of the disturbing increase in crimes of violence since this Department commenced its investigation, does not my right hon. Friend consider that, instead of relying on the leisurely deliberations of an unofficial body, his Department should introduce proposals of its own to meet the situation?

I am satisfied that, now the Cambridge Department can give its whole time to this matter, it will be able to give me its opinion in the not-too-distant future. I would, therefore, rather await its advice. It has already done three studies, which have been extremely valuable, and I would rather rely on its Report.

Will the Home Secretary bear in mind that his decision to resist the intemperate demands of his hon. Friend will have the support of hon. Members on both sides; and that, in the opinion of most of us, it is essential that this Report should be characterised by an academic assessment of the difficulties of the problem rather than by unnecessary demands for speed?

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what further information he has received from the City authorities arising from their review of the possibility of holding the Lord Mayor's procession on Saturdays.

I am informed that the City authorities are conducting a review of this possibility, but that this review is not yet complete.

Following on the gracious and practical decision to hold the Trooping the Colour ceremony on a Saturday in future, would the Home Secretary tactfully suggest to the City and Corporation of London that the Mansion House would do well to follow the very good example set by Buckingham Palace?

I am aware that the City authorities are aware of this precedent.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the new research unit which he set up in the Home Office to consider the problem of juvenile delinquency has been instructed to inquire into the considerable increase of youthful drunkenness, particularly with reference to the places and agencies in association with which young people obtain intoxicants and contract drinking habits.

The Home Office Research Unit is at present fully occupied, mainly with studies relating to the treatment of offenders. I hope, however, to arrange for an investigation into the increase in the number of convictions for drunkenness to be carried out by another body.

Can the Home Secretary say whether this body will be recruited entirely from the ranks of the Home Office, or will he bring into it people experienced in dealing with juveniles—leaders of youth clubs and youth organisations, for example—to assist in its work?

I think it likelier to be outside the Home Office, and directly I can get it arranged I will, perhaps, inform the hon. Gentleman.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that, owing to the shortage of remand home accommodation in the London area, children and young persons placed on remand in custody are constantly being sent to Winchester and in some cases to as far away as Barry, Glamorgan, and Liverpool; and what steps he is taking to make available increased suitable remand accommodation and facilities.

The average percentage use of places in remand homes in the London area in the six months ended 30th June was 81, but I am aware that, in that period, the number of places has not been sufficient at all times to meet the increased demand. A number of boys have been sent to the Winchester remand home, and more distant remand homes have been used in a very few cases. I am keeping the position under review, and appropriate measures will be taken, in consultation with the authorities concerned, if there is undue and continuing pressure on the available accommodation.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his Answer does not correspond with the actual position as the juvenile magistrates themselves see it, and that the position is very acute indeed? Can he hold out any promise that it will be rectified in the very near future?

We shall certainly attempt to do so. I gave a certain average figure but, of course, there are fluctuations in committals, and, at some moment, the magistrates may see the situation as worse than as announced in my Answer.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that, owing to the considerable increase in cases coming before the juvenile courts in the London area, probation officers and other staff are seriously overworked; and what special steps he is taking to remedy the situation.

I am aware that the steady increase in the business of the London juvenile courts in recent months has resulted in some over-burdening of the probation officers serving them, though I have not heard of serious overwork among other staff.

I thank the Home Secretary for his promise that this is being attended to, but may I ask whether he is aware that, at present, probation officers are overloaded with cases, and that the whole system in the juvenile courts will break down unless this is attended to? Further, is he aware that the staffs have to sit in the juvenile courts day after day until 7 or 8 o'clock in the evening, and that it is putting far too much pressure on them. What is he doing about that?

The hon. Gentleman will see that we are trying to fill the immediate vacancies, and I am glad to say that an advertisement which was recently put out for men to be trained for work in London resulted in a very considerable answer, so I do not think the work is regarded as either unsuitable or unattractive. I have looked at the case loads. Undoubtedly the case loads are much heavier for the men than for the women at the present moment. We have this very much under review. It is all part of the burden of the general increase in crime which, in this case, is falling on the probation officers.

In view of the importance of having adequate numbers and quality of staff, will the Home Secretary keep reminding himself of the dissatisfaction expressed in this House over his own decision on probation officers' pay?

Yes, Sir. That is ever present to my mind.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will make a statement on recent Irish Republican Army activities in County Armagh, particularly the murder of a police constable near Fork-hill, the placing of a suitcase filled with explosive at the door of a police station in Armagh and the use of a vault under Armagh Roman Catholic Cathedral as a hide-out.

Her Majesty's Government deplore the fresh series of murderous assaults which took place in Northern Ireland last week, in one of which a police constable was fatally injured. I should like to express Her Majesty's Government's sympathy with the constable's relatives. As there was evidence that these outrages were mounted from the territory of the Irish Republic, Her Majesty's Ambassador in Dublin was instructed to deliver a note of protest to the Republican Minister of External Affairs. This note, which was delivered on 18th July, emphasised the very grave view which Her Majesty's Government take of these latest incidents, and reminded the Government of the Irish Republic that it is their duty to prevent armed incursions from their territory into Northern Ireland. The Republican Government equally deplore these incidents, and are doing all they can to trace the culprits and to prevent further incidents. Already two arrests have been made in the Republic.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for that reply, and while I accept unreservedly what has been said by the authorities of the cathedral, and sympathise with their distress that it should have been used in the way mentioned in my Question, may I ask him if he is aware that, in the twenty-four hours during which this young policeman was murdered, there were no fewer than nine incidents in the border area? Would he agree that the steps so far taken by the Government of the Irish Republic to control terrorism in Northern Ireland, based across the border—

Order. I think that that is enough for one supplementary question. Mr. Butler.

I can only say that I am aware that the Church authorities have issued a statement deploring the use of this passage and room for such a purpose, and have recalled the cardinal's statement condemning the use of violence, and I am sure that we can all accept it. With regard to the second part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question, I think it better not to make any further observations on the Government of another country, but I should like to say that we do note that two arrests have been made in the Republic, and we trust that the authorities there will follow on this course.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many British refugees from Egypt are not yet settled in homes of their own; and what further action he is proposing to take, through the Anglo-Egyptian Resettlement Board, to provide permanent housing accommodation for them.

About 550 refugees are still in hostels, and about a further 300 are being helped by the Board, though living in private accommodation. These include dependants, and about 100 people who hope to emigrate. The Board has a number of schemes for providing houses for refugees. Housing grants are made to help them to get mortgages; negotiations are conducted with local authorities for the provision of council houses; a scheme for making flatlets available will, it is hoped, be introduced shortly; and homes are being established for elderly people in need of care.

While appreciating all that the Resettlement Board has done for these refugees, may I ask if the hon. Lady is aware that there are some in this latter category who are not eligible for mortgages for house purchase, and who would find difficulty in meeting monthly instalments even if they could obtain mortgages? Can she say whether one of the schemes that the Board is considering is that of purchasing houses and letting them at a reasonable rent to some of these families?

I appreciate what the hon. Lady says, but, in fact, one of the difficulties is that some of the expellees would not be in a position to continue the mortgage payments even if they had an initial loan from the Board. I do not think that there is any prospect of the Board itself, which is a temporary organisation, undertaking to buy houses for refugees, and so becoming a landlord. One of the further difficulties is that so many of the refugees want to concentrate on London. Although we have opportunities of a hundred houses elsewhere, they have not been taken up because the refugees desire to concentrate on London, where it is more difficult than anywhere else to obtain council houses.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has reached a decision on the proposals of the Westminster City Council with regard to the alteration of the number and boundaries of the wards of the City of Westminster.

My right hon. Friend is considering the report of the inquiry held into the City Council's proposals, and hopes to give his decision shortly.

Is the hon. and learned Gentleman aware that, under the existing arrangement, a vote in Pall Mall has six times the value of a vote cast in Westminster, where I live? Is he further aware that representations have been made to me by some of my neighbours that we might have to resort to the methods so successful in Iraq to secure a change in the City Council? Can he give an assurance that, before the next election, new arrangements will be made, and that, in order to remove them, it will not be necessary to assassinate some of the Westminster City Councillors?

I do not think we can discuss the merits of these proposals now. This is not the occasion to hold a fresh inquiry.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what measures of self-rule similar to other British territories in Africa will be introduced into the three High Commission Territories as a result of his recent tour; to what extent the Union of South Africa Government was consulted about these measures; and when the proposals will be implemented.

Certain changes have been under consideration for some time, but I am not able at present to give details of their nature or to forecast when it may be possible to implement them.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware of any territory in Africa where constitutional political advance has been so slow as in the Protectorates in South Africa, particularly in Bechuanaland? Would not he agree that having regard to the good will towards this country which still exists there, it is necessary to press on with this matter?

I had an opportunity when I was there recently of hearing the views in Bechuanaland arising from the consideration which has been given to this subject in the Joint Advisory Council, and later in the African Advisory Council, but the views are not fully formulated yet. As to the report to the Basuto Council, this is not being presented until tomorrow, and therefore I am not in a position to comment on it.

Have any steps been taken in Bechuanaland in response to the request by the Council for legislative powers?

As I said in reply to the previous supplementary question, the full nature of the proposals has not yet been formulated, but we are waiting for the High Commissioner's comments on the debate which took place at the end of May in the African Advisory Committee.

Is it possible for a statement to be made before the House rises?

I do not think there is any likelihood of our being able to make any statement on the Report to the Basuto Council, because consideration by the Council will not be completed until after the House rises.

And in the case of Bechuanaland?

With regard to Bechuanaland, I think we must give time in order to get more detailed views from the High Commissioner. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman and the House that we keep these subjects affecting both these Territories very firmly in mind.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what official discussions took place between the High Commissioner and the Government of the Union of South Africa prior to the introduction of legislation requiring entry and work permits for all residents in Bechuanaland, Basutoland and Swaziland; and if the High Commissioner gave prior approval to this restriction on their movement and employment.

In March, 1957, the High Commissioner for Basutoland, the Bechuanaland Protectorate and Swaziland was given advance information by the Union Government of their intention to introduce the measure which was subsequently passed as the Native Laws (Further Amendment) Act, 1957. For the exact effect of this on Africans from the High Commission Territories I would refer the hon. Member to my Answer to his Question on 22nd May. There was no question of the High Commissioner's prior approval being necessary or being sought.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that Dr. Verwoerd in the Legislature of the Union of South Africa has definitely stated that the endorsement of the High Commissioner was secured in this matter? Is he further aware that although in a previous answer he said that this applies only to trouble makers, it has now been extended to all residents of Basutoland who are in the Union?

I cannot accept the hon. Gentleman's point about the statement made by the Minister of Native Affairs in the Union. I think the hon. Gentleman may be basing his Question on an article which appeared recently in the Press. Perhaps it would be helpful to him and to me if I were to send him a comment on the various allegations made in that article, many of which are quite incorrect.

May we have an assurance that British protected persons living in the High Commission Territories who go into the Union can return to those Territories without hindrance?

Those who belong to the Territories can certainly return there without hindrance.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what are the provisions of the Entry and Residence Proclamation issued by the High Commissioner for Bechuanaland.

I assume that the hon. Member is referring to the Bechuanaland Protectorate African Immigration Proclamation, 1958, which was promulgated by the High Commissioner on 25th April. 1958. I am sending him a copy of this Proclamation.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this Proclamation in Bechuanaland is similar to the one in Basutoland? Does he recollect that a year ago the Union of South Africa asked that two Basuto residents who had been charged at the treason trials should be extradited? Although that request was refused, is not it the case that there were then negotiations which have led to this measure, which would require the Protectorates to return any person who is demanded by the South African Government?

The hon. Gentleman is raising a different question, but as far as there are differences between the two Proclamations they are differences in detail, and I shall be glad to explain those to the hon. Gentleman on paper. I think there is evidence in the supplementary question that it will be valuable to us both if I send the hon. Gentleman a comment on the article which appeared in the New Statesman not long ago.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations if he will make a statement on his official visit to the High Commission Territories, and, in particular, on his discussions regarding constitutional advance in these Territories.

In reply to the first part of the Question, I would refer the hon. Member to my reply on 3rd July to a similar Question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice (Mr. Wall). As regards the second part of the Question, I had an opportunity of hearing informally a variety of views on political and administrative matters from representatives of all the communities in the Territories.

I have read the Answer to which the hon. Gentleman refers, but is the hon. Gentleman aware that he was a little modest in that reply, for he gave the itinerary only and did not mention any of the subjects which he discussed? Apart from the problem of Legislative Councils, which has also been raised, did he discuss the appalling level of wages in the Protectorates and the development of mineral resources there?

When I returned to Pretoria after having discussions with the various Resident Commissioners and representatives of the various communities, I had an opportunity to discuss with the High Commissioner in Pretoria the matters to which the hon. Gentleman has referred.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations if he will make a statement about the defence talks with the South African Government concerning the High Commission Territories of Bechuanaland, Basutoland and Swaziland.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what decisions were reached during the recent discussions between the South African Defence Minister and the High Commissioner for Basutoland, Swaziland and Bechuanaland with regard to defence planning facilities; and what proposals have been reached on behalf of the United Kingdom Government for further facilities to be granted to the South African Government.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what defence planning facilities have been given to the South African Government in Basutoland, the Bechuanaland Protectorate and Swaziland.

Discussions on this subject between the Union Minister of Defence and the High Commissioner for Basutoland, the Bechuanaland Protectorate and Swaziland have recently been concluded. A statement has been published, for the text of which I would refer the right hon. Member to my reply to my hon. Friend, the Member for Haltemprice (Mr. Wall) on 21st July.

Does the Minister recall that the Government were warned in 1955 that the granting of certain defence facilities would result in further pressure from the Union? This is happening. Why are the Government so anxious to co-operate with the Union Government when they have not been fully co-operative on defence matters generally with this country?

We recognise the important part which the Union of South Africa plays in the defence of Southern Africa generally, and the facilities which have been granted in accordance with the agreement recently reached are directly relevant to the Union of South Africa carrying out its responsibilities for defence in that area.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the granting to the Union of South Africa of any facilities in the Protectorates is liable to be the subject of very grave misunderstandings inside the Protectorates? Will he agree that, if any facilities are given, the benefits to the inhabitants of those Protectorates should be obvious to them in order to avoid those misconceptions?

I fully agree, and the High Commissioner, through the Resident Commissioners, is taking particular steps to ensure that the full significance of this agreement is understood by all the African authorities concerned.

Will the hon. Gentleman say what representations he has received from the Territories about this scheme? Secondly, could he say whether, in addition to these defence facilities, facilities for defence intelligence are to be granted to the South African Government, since the two often go together, and, if so, will not it have very serious political significance?

The main heads of the agreement are set out in the announcement to which I referred, which is included in my Answer to the Question of my hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice (Mr. Wall). I have to answer a Question shortly about consultation, and I think that that will cover the matter raised in the earlier part of the hon. Lady's supplementary question.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what consultations have taken place this year with the African peoples of Bechuanaland, Basutoland, and Swaziland with regard to the defence planning facilities which will be granted to the South African Government, and which were agreed in discussions in Pretoria between the South African Defence Minister and the High Commissioner for the three Territories.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations to what extent, and by what methods, the indigenous populations of the three High Commission Territories of Swaziland, Basutoland, and Bechuanaland have been consulted this year before the defence planning facilities were agreed to by the United Kingdom, the South African Government, and the High Commissioner.

As I stated in reply to a Question on 21st November, 1957, the appropriate authorities in the Territories were consulted as necessary and their views were taken into account. Responsibility for the security of the High Commission Territories rests exclusively with the United Kingdom, and in discharging this responsibility the United Kingdom Government will ensure that the interests of the inhabitants will be effectively safeguarded.

Is the Minister aware that there is a feeling that this is the thin end of the wedge, if I may use that expression? Is it the case that, while these facilities are being granted now, there is already a request for further facilities from the Union of South Africa?

Reference was made by the Minister of Defence in South Africa to a facility which was not accepted and agreed to by the United Kingdom Government. I am not aware of any other requests for facilities which have been made to us. Some of the facilities which have been accorded to the Union of South Africa are of mutual advantage. For instance, the provision of air rescue services in the Protectorates is of great advantage and is in accordance with the responsibility the Union has undertaken under the Chicago Convention. As regards the others, we are satisfied that they are directly related to the Union's defence responsibilities in Southern Africa.

Is the Minister satisfied that the indigenous population of the High Commission Territories is satisfied too? Is he aware that there is a grave and natural suspicion at the entry of South African troops into a High Commission country, and has he a pledge from the South African Government that if in dire circumstances they should have to go in, they will get out as soon as conveniently possible?

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that he need have no fears on that particular score. As regards the particular item in the agreement which affects Basutoland, the agreement of the Paramount Chief Regent was received before the final defence agreement was concluded.

The hon. Gentleman said that there were consultations with many people there. Have the views of those people been set out anywhere? May we know how far they were satisfied—not only the Paramount Chief but other important people there also?

The decision with regard to the nature of the consultations must properly be left to the High Commissioner, and the High Commissioner undertook such consultations as he felt were appropriate in the circumstances. When I was there I did have an opportunity of discussing this matter in Basutoland, and there also I took the chance of explaining the background of Her Majesty's Government's point of view in this matter. My feeling is that that was fully understood by those who were present on that occasion.

Against whom does the Union want to defend itself in Basutoland—us?

The Union installation is not in Basutoland. The only relevance which this has to Basutoland is to a road of access to a particular place which is to be established on Union territory.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what current steps are being taken to promote the use of British films, books, and periodicals in Commonwealth countries.

Both the United Kingdom Information Services and the British Council in Commonwealth countries assist in promoting the use of British films, books and periodicals by maintaining well-stocked libraries from which British films, of the documentary type, and books may be borrowed either free of charge or at a small rental. A good supply of British general and technical periodicals is available in British Council and Information Office reading rooms and these are also distributed free or are available for sale. In addition, presentations of technical books are made from time to time under the Technical Co-operation Scheme of the Colombo Plan.

Has the hon. Gentleman's attention been drawn to letters in The Times recently and references in other publications to the very meagre supply of books and other cultural material in many countries in the Commonwealth? The Rhodesias were mentioned, and there are countries like Pakistan, for instance, where currency difficulties add to the problems of booksellers and film producers. Has anything been done, particularly where currency difficulties are concerned, to overcome them?

My attention has been drawn to the letter which referred to a complaint by the Librarian of the Bulawayo Public Library. We are doing our best to see whether we can provide some additional supplies of books to that library. We are at the moment in discussion with the Pakistan Government about the possibility of extending book exports there.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in Pakistan and India recently I found American and Soviet books much easier to purchase than English books? Indeed, in India I read one of Galsworthy's novels in a Soviet edition and was unable to get it in an English edition.

I agree with the hon. Gentleman that it is most important that there should be a continuing supply of United Kingdom books to the various Commonwealth countries. As I say, we are in negotiation with the Pakistan Government on this matter at present.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations if he will prepare a plan on behalf of Her Majesty's Government for a Commonwealth agreement to ensure that changes in the Commonwealth jute growing and manufacturing industries take place gradually and subject to full employment; and if he will lay this plan before the Governments of the Commonwealth at the Commonwealth Economic Conference at Montreal.

Her Majesty's Government are always concerned that major changes in established industries should take place in such a way as to avoid undue disruption or unemployment. If the hon. Member has any new proposals in mind which would require the agreement of other Commonwealth countries, I should be glad to consider them in consultation with my right hon. Friend, the President of the Board of Trade.

Is not that an astonishing reply? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that it is the responsibility of Her Majesty's Government, with all the resources at their disposal, to put forward plans which will help to resolve the very real conflict of interest between India, Pakistan and Britain in the jute industry; and, further, is he aware that the Government's complete unwillingness to act in the matter is causing large-scale unemployment in Dundee at the moment?

If the hon. Gentleman has any particular matters connected with the jute industry to put, I think that he should put them to my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what requests have been made by the Government of the Maldives that Gan Island will only be used in defence of the Maldives or any part of the Commonwealth, and that there will be no interference with the fishing industry of the Maldives; to what extent these requests have been agreed by the United Kingdom Government; and what are the terms of the agreement between the two Governments.

Under the 1953 Agreement between the United Kingdom and Maldivian Governments, the United Kingdom have the right, after consultation with the Maldivian authorities, to establish and maintain in the Maldive Islands such facilities as they may determine to be required for the defence of the Maldives or any part of the Commonwealth. At no stage has it been suggested by either Government that the air-staging post on Gan Island should be used on any other basis. In response to a request that the interests of the local fishing industry should be safeguarded, the Maldivian Government were informed in December last year that the United Kingdom Government would at all times endeavour to avoid any unnecessary interference with the legitimate fishing activities of the local inhabitants. As regards the last part of the Question, final agreement has still to be reached with the Maldivian Government, and negotiations are continuing.

Is it the case that a final agreement has still to be reached with the Maldivian Government about the use of Gan Island as a defence post, and is not the claim they are making, to which I refer in my Question, quite a reasonable claim to make?

The claims which the Maldivians are making, to which the hon. Gentleman referred, as I said in my reply, are already accepted with regard to fishing rights and use in connection with the defence of the Maldive Islands and the Commonwealth. Those are not the points at issue. The general idea is, I think, generally accepted between the two Governments. What has to be worked out at the moment are certain details with regard to resettlement and other matters.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what representations he has received from the Government of Canada regarding the intervention by British troops in the Middle East.

In accordance with normal procedure, we have been in close and constant touch with other Commonwealth Governments about the Middle East situation. As I said in my Answer on 2nd July to a Question by the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond), hon. Members will not expect me to give details of the nature of these Commonwealth consultations, which are, by long established practice, confidential.

I appreciate that, but is the Under-Secretary aware that, according to Press reports, when our Foreign Secretary was in America he met Mr. Foster Dulles and also Mr. Sidney Smith, the Minister for External Affairs in Canada, and that Mr. Smith warned the right hon. and learned Gentleman not to go too far in the Middle East? Did that have some moderating effect on Government policy?

All that I can say is that Mr. Diefenbaker, in a statement in the Canadian Parliament on 17th July, said:

"I am sure that Members of the House agree that, in the circumstances, the United Kingdom Government had no alternative but to act as it has done."

In the latter part of his Answer, the hon. Gentleman referred to consultations. Are we to understand that there were, in fact, consultations with the Commonwealth Governments before the Government embarked upon their Middle East campaign?

As the right hon. Gentleman well knows, I cannot go further than I have gone in my original reply.

asked the Minister of Education whether he will revise his new Regulations in order to allow students to retain college scholarships awarded in recognition of academic merit, whether or not these scholarships are recognised as qualifying the holder for the award of a State scholarship.

No, Sir. Section 100 of the Education Act, 1944, and the Regulations made thereunder require my right hon. Friend, to relate the value of a State scholarship to the total financial circumstances of the scholar or his parents, including any other scholarship held by him, with the object of avoiding hardship.

Would not my hon. Friend agree that it is both discouraging and unfair to a student who has worked hard and won an award for academic ability to be denied the benefit of that award and be put on exactly the same level as other less outstanding students?

I am aware of my hon. Friend's concern about this. The point of the supplemental State scholarship scheme is that it makes up the value of the college scholarship to that of the State scholarship. This question will, no doubt, be considered by the Anderson Committee, which is not precluded by its terms of reference from recommending changes which require legislation.

asked the Minister of Education the value of capital grants made to local authorities in each of the last two years for the provision of science laboratories in grammar and secondary modern schools, respectively.

Since the Answer contains a number of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Can the Minister say whether the amount of the grants in the last two years is comparable to the grant of £2¾ million which has been made by the Industrial Fund to independent and direct grant schools? Is he sure that the rate of expansion of science laboratories in the local authority secondary schools will adequately prevent the expansion of the gap in privilege between those who are able to afford to pay for their education and those who are not?

The hon. Member will see from the Answer in the OFFICIAL REPORT that the capital cost of new science laboratories at all secondary schools maintained by local education authorities shows an increase of from £1,100,000 in 1957–58 to £2 million in 1958–59. I do not regard that as too bad a rate of increase.

asked the Minister of Education what steps he has taken, or will take, to ensure full co-operation with the National Apprenticeship Council in accordance with the Report of the Carr Committee, "Training for Skill."

As the House will have learned from the Press this morning, the Industrial Training Council, at its inaugural meeting yesterday, decided to invite my right hon. Friend, the Association of Technical Institutions and the City and Guilds of London Institute each to appoint a representative to participate in the Council's work. My right hon. Friend welcomes this move as a means of promoting the close co-operation between industry and education which is essential to success in this important matter.

Is the hon. Baronet aware that that reply is very welcome?

I thank the hon. Member.

asked the Minister of Education, in view of the annual increase in the number of young persons leaving school, which is expected to reach its peak in 1962, and the difficulty of recruiting from amongst them an adequate number of apprentices because of the reluctance of small firms to provide apprenticeships, what steps he proposes to take to encourage local authorities, by way of additional grant or otherwise, to provide training centres for apprenticeship schemes.

The main duty of local education authorities in this sphere is to provide educational opportunities to match the training provided by industry for apprentices, not to replace it. My right hon. Friend is giving them every help and encouragement to develop their service to this end.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that in this Question we are concerned with small firms, that they do not seem to be providing facilities for school-leavers and that if local authorities were encouraged by the Ministry to do something in this matter, such facilities could be provided all over the country?

I assure the hon. Member that we do our very best to encourage small firms and to draw their attention to this important matter. The Carr Committee did, however, recommend that the present division of responsibility between local education authorities and industry in this sphere should be maintained.

asked the Minister of Education what suggestions he has made to teachers' training colleges and university education departments to increase their intake of students training to be teachers, and to pay regard to the need to train teachers for work in secondary schools.

My right hon. Friend has asked training colleges to take more students in each of the last few years and has invited them to make proposals for providing further places in 1959. The proportion of students training for work in secondary schools has increased in recent years. I am glad to say that each year more students are entering university departments of education.

Is the hon. Baronet aware that the assumptions which he made concerning the supply of teachers a year ago have proved to be unsound? For example, does he recollect that he thought the school population would decrease by 250,000 between 1961 and 1967, whereas it will fall by only 90,000 as between 1961 and 1965? Is the Parliamentary Secretary satisfied, therefore, that teacher supply will be adequate?

This is a big subject to discuss at Question Time. My right hon. Friend is undertaking a permanent expansion of the colleges, which should enable them to train 1,000 extra teachers a year after 1960. I cannot say anything further today, but I assure the hon. Member that this subject is very much in our minds—as much, in fact, as any other single educational topic at the present time.