asked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what decision has been reached on the proposal of the Joint European and African Advisory Council for Bechuanaland that a legislative council should be established; and what action is being taken to establish legislative councils in Basutoland and Swaziland.

As I informed the House on 24th July, we are awaiting the High Commissioner's comments on the resolution of the Joint Advisory Council for the Bechuanaland Protectorate relating to legislative powers.

My noble Friend informed the Basutoland Council in May, 1956, that he was prepared to consider proposals for giving the Basutoland Council power to make laws on certain matters. The Basutoland Council have this week been considering a report on constitutional reform containing proposals for submission to my noble Friend.

No proposals are at present formulated for constitutional changes in Swaziland.

While thanking the hon. Gentleman for that detailed reply, may I ask if he does not think it time that this arrogance of these three Territories being governed by the personal decree of a High Commissioner living in another country was ended? Will he, during the period of the Recess, give his very active mind to the establishment of legislative councils in Bechuanaland, as has been demanded, and as is being demanded by the Basutoland National Council?

There is no question at all of arrogance in these matters, and any hon. Member who has any first-hand knowledge of the high standard of administration reached in those Territories will be proud of the achievement that it represents. As the hon. Member is well aware—and, indeed, as I have said in my Answer—proposals are coming forward as a result of committees that have been considering the constitutional future in Basutoland, which will be considered in due course by my noble Friend.

Is the Under-Secretary aware that we are all delighted with the liberal speech that he made in Pretoria during his tour, in which he is reported as saying that he hoped to see the constitutional evolution of the three Protectorates in the same way as our Colonies in other parts of Africa? Will he confirm that report? If so, we will wish him all power in his efforts in the coming months.

I think the hon. Gentleman had better await the outcome of the consideration of the proposals which are to come forward in due course from the Territories to my noble Friend.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations if he will enumerate the authorities with whom discussions took place with the European and African Advisory Councils in Bechuanaland and the Native Authority Councils in Basutoland and Swaziland before the conclusion of the Defence Agreement with the Government of the Union of South Africa which extends as facilities in the High Commission Territories.

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave on 24th July to the hon. Members for Govan (Mr. Rankin) and for Deptford (Sir L. Plummer). The consultations which took place with the appropriate authorities in the three Territories were conducted by the respective Resident Commissioners and officers of the Administrations. I would like to take this opportunity of expressing our appreciation of the part which His Excellency the High Commissioner, Sir Percivale Leisching, played in bringing the discussions with the Government of the Union of South Africa to a successful conclusion.

But may I ask the hon. Gentleman two fundamental questions? First, why should this country enter into a defence agreement with the Union of South Africa, which has a régime which is, in many respects, more tyrannical than that of Communist countries? Secondly, why should the people of the Protectorate, who indignantly oppose any union with South Africa, be committed to these defence arrangements without being consulted about them?

I do not think that responsible Members on the hon. Member's side, any more than hon. Members on this side of the House, will associate themselves with the expression of opinion that he has included in his supplementary question. Her Majesty's Government of the United Kingdom are responsible for the defence of the High Commission Territories. We recognise, as I said in reply to a supplementary last week, the important part which the Union Government have to play in the defence of Southern Africa as a whole, and we are satisfied that these discussions, which have taken place over a considerable period of time, are related exclusively to the common interest that exists between the High Commission Territories and the Union of South Africa with regard to the security of Southern Africa as a whole.

Is the Under-Secretary of State aware that, to the best of my knowledge, he has not even answered my hon. Friend's question? My hon. Friend asked, "What authorities?" and the only answer given is "The appropriate authorities". Can we know a little more about who are "the appropriate authorities"?

In Bechuanaland, Chief Bathoen, as Chairman of the African Advisory Council, and Mr. Russell England, as Chairman of the European Advisory Council, were approached by the Resident Commissioner. The Resident Commissioner also consulted the African Authority in Serowe—that is, Rasebolai Kgamane—and other Chiefs in the Protectorate. Mrs. Moremi, Regent of Ngamiland, was consulted by the Divisional Commissioner. In Basutoland and Swaziland, the Paramount Chiefs were approached by the respective Resident Commissioners. The Paramount Chief Regent of the Basuto agreed to the concession concerning the road relating to the radar installation, which is on Union territory.

Does this mean that those who were consulted did, in fact, give their agreement? If that is not so, does it not emphasise the need to speed up the setting up of these legislative councils so that indigenous peoples can freely express their wishes?

I am quite certain that it would be the wish of the people in the Territories that matters regarding defence should remain the responsibility and decision of Her Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom.

In view of the unsatisfactory reply, may I give notice that, with apologies for the inconvenience to yourself, I shall raise this matter at the earliest opportunity tomorrow morning?

As to the hon. Member's point of order, I personally would like an opportunity to reply to some of the points made and to explain some of these matters. I am only sorry that the right hon. Gentleman removed from the Order Paper the Adjournment Motion which was down for tomorrow.

On that, may I say that I, too, regret that the debate on the High Commission Territories had to be withdrawn for tomorrow. This is a matter of importance to the House. And I may say that the only reason for its withdrawal was that another very important Motion had to be debated and that the obvious responsibility rests with the Government, who should have provided time earlier.

I think the hon. Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Brockway) gave notice late last night that he intended to raise this matter on the Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill tonight.

indicated assent.

Then I do not really know what he means by talking about tomorrow morning.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations if he will publish a White Paper setting out in full the agreement reached with the Union Government and the nature and source of the representations he has received regarding the grant of defence facilities in the High Commission Territories to South Africa and the replies he has made to them.

No, Sir. The facilities to be accorded to the Union Government in the High Commission Territories have already been made public in the statement circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT on 21st July in reply to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice (Mr. Wall). With regard to the second and third parts of the Question, I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to a Question today by the hon. Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Brockway).

Is not the Under-Secretary aware that that is really a totally unsatisfactory reply? Is it not the fact that the Answer of 21st July merely gave the heads of agreement? What I am asking for is the right of this House to know, in detail, what the agreement was. In such an important matter as this, information about the heads of agreement is quite inadequate. Further, is the hon. Gentleman not also aware that he has evaded an answer to the Question of my hon. Friend a moment ago? What we want to know is what the people consulted said in reply to the consultations. Is he not aware that the fact that he has not answered that and his evasiveness on these two points must encourage suspicion?

The hon. Lady is calling on her imagination if she assumes that in anything that has been agreed between the High Commissioner and the Union Government there are matters additional to those which were set out under the heads of agreement. I can assure her that that is not the case, and I must say that I do not think that it is in the interests of the Territories that she should try to inflame suspicion that there is anything behind the agreement other than those matters that have already been put out.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations what reply he has received from the Government of the Irish Republic to the Note delivered on behalf of Her Majesty's Government on 18th July protesting at the recent Irish Republican Army outrages in Northern Ireland.

No written reply has been received from the Government of the Irish Republic, but on 18th July, when our Ambassador delivered the Note to the Minister for External Affairs, the Minister said that he and his colleagues equally deplored this latest series of incidents and had been greatly disturbed by their widespread character. He assured the Ambassador that the Republican Government would continue to do their utmost to suppress violence and bring these incidents to an end. The Minister also drew attention to the remarks made by Mr. de Valera in the Dail the previous day condemning once again the use of force. I understand that since the incidents in question at least fifteen arrests have been made in the Irish Republic.

While I am sure that everyone in the House will welcome his statement, and whilst I have no doubt that the Government of the Irish Republic are doing their best to cope with these outrages, is my hon. Friend aware that the outrages are almost invariably perpetrated by young men in their twenties, and that the root of the trouble really lies in the version of Irish history they are taught at school, which tends to glorify assassination? Could he not encourage the importation of more objective history textbooks into Southern Ireland, which would give a cool and less impassioned account of Irish and Anglo-Irish history?

I do not think the Minister is responsible for the school books used in Ireland.

asked the Minister of Education whether he will issue an up-to-date version of table 4 of the White Paper on technical education, giving full details of part-time day release industry by industry.

Yes, Sir. I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT a table giving the latest figures available. It shows that the proportion of workers under the age of 18 who are released to attend part-time day classes has increased from 27 per cent. to 33·8 per cent. for boys and from 7 per cent. to 8·4 per cent. for girls.

asked the Minister of Education what would be the cost to both central and local government if the means test on maintenance grants of students at universities, technical colleges, and teacher training colleges were abolished.

About £7 million a year.

In view of this trifling amount involved as against total national expenditure, and the fact that our future depends so much upon having the maximum number of students at university colleges and similar institutions, will the Minister consider recommending much more generous scales than now apply, because many students and their parents suffer from considerable financial worry? This cannot be a good thing for university education.

The Question specifically relates to the means test. In my Answer to a Question asked last week by my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Mr. John Hall), I mentioned that the terms of reference of the Anderson Committee were fairly wide and generous.

asked the Minister of Education how many local education authorities are implementing his latest proposed increases in the maintenance allowances for children remaining at school over the age of 15 years; how many have partially adopted his suggestions; and how many have made no increases in the allowances paid.

One hundred and thirty-three local education authorities have adopted the proposals and five more have partially adopted them. The other eight authorities have not notified my right hon. Friend of any changes in their arrangements.

Is the Minister aware that this is a most gratifying and excellent Answer revealing progress on the part of local authorities? As the scales which the Minister introduced are a really valuable contribution to the education of poor but able children, in his next circular to authorities which have not adopted the scale will he convey the need for adopting it?

My right hon. Friend wholly agrees with the hon. Member that the figures I have given represent an extremely good response from local education authorities. He does not think that any further action is at present called for, but he will, of course, bear in mind the last point made by the hon. Member.

asked the Minister of Education whether he will revise his method of assessing grants for self-supporting students attending one-year courses at departments of education so as to enable them, if they are under 25 years of age, to receive grants in respect of a wife, children, or wholly dependent relative.

No, Sir.

Will the hon. Gentleman explain why not?

The whole purpose of dependants' grants is to help really good older people who will bring valuable outside experience into the schools. It is the view of the Department that this can hardly happen if people are under the age of 25 when they start training.

Can the Parliamentary Secretary explain this? It would appear from his regulations that a young man proposing to take up a course of training of this kind and who has a widowed mother dependent upon him will get a grant if he is over 25 years of age, but not if he is 23 or 24. On what basis is this justifiable?

The hon. Member has written to me about the case of Mr. Hoon, and I shall shortly be sending him a full reply. Perhaps he will await my answer, which will contain full details.

asked the Minister of Education if he will review the composition of the Secondary Schools Examination Council with a view to enlisting the services of personnel knowledgeable in junior technical examinations in modern schools.

The Secondary School Examinations Council already includes persons with experience of examinations in secondary modern schools. But my right hon. Friend will certainly bear the hon. Member's suggestion in mind in considering future appointments to the Council.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that the composition of the Council as submitted at the moment contains only one seat from the secondary modern schools? It is true that there are about 12 persons with some experience of secondary school routine and organisation, but there are still 20 persons whose experience is quite remote from present-day living conditions and problems in secondary schools. Therefore, is it not important to reconsider the whole set-up?

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that two members of the Secondary Schools Examination Council have first-hand experience of secondary modern schools, but my right hon. Friend will certainly bear this point in mind.

asked the Minister of Education what advice he has received from his Education Advisory Council concerning the present system of junior technical examinations in modern schools.

None, yet.

asked the Minister of Education if he is aware of the different scales of payments for students who enter for junior technical examinations and for those who take the General Certificate of Education examination; and whether he will make a statement.

I assume the hon. Member is referring to the fact that pupils under 16 taking the General Certificate of Education examination have their fees remitted but those taking technical examinations do not. On this I have nothing to add to the answer I gave the hon. Member on 13th February.

The difficulty seems to be Circular 326. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in the northern counties secondary technical examination 34 students sat and had to pay an examination fee of 14s. and that one boy of 16 who sat for the G.C.E. had his fee paid by the Ministry? Surely there is a totally unfair discrimination. Further, is the Minister aware that in order to encourage technical education these days it is important to remove this barrier to students?

The fees charged by examining bodies are fixed by each body. My right hon. Friend does not see any reason to interfere with their discretion, but if the hon. Gentleman has a case in mind and will write to me I will consider it.

Is it not a fact that the point raised by my hon. Friend relates not to the fee charged by the examining body but to the question whether the Ministry ought to be prepared to meet it, as it does in the case of the General Certificate of Education? In view of the importance of technical education, ought not that point to be reconsidered?

It is within the discretion of local education authorities to pay the fee for external examinations other than the G.C.E. But certainly I will look at the point and, as I say, if the hon. Gentleman has any particular point in mind and will write to me about it, I will consider the matter.

I would call attention to the fact that we have only reached Question No. 10. I hope that supplementary questions will be much shorter than they have been so far.

asked the Minister of Education whether he has noted that the number of pupils in maintained and assisted schools will reach a peak of 6,946,000 in 1961 and will be 6,937,000 in 1968; and what steps he has taken to increase the output of teachers from training colleges and university education departments and from other sources.

Yes, Sir. My right hon. Friend has recently considered policy on the training of teachers taking into account not only these estimates, but also the number of teachers likely to be leaving the profession and the introduction of the three-year course of training. As a result, he has asked the training colleges to take emergency measures to admit as many extra students as they can in 1958 and 1959. He has also put in hand the first instalment of a permanent expansion of the colleges and is considering what further expansion is needed.

I know that.

asked the Minister of Education what tentative estimates he has made of the increases in the number of full-time teachers in maintained and assisted schools likely to result in the years 1958 to 1963, inclusive; and to what extent there is likely to be a deficiency of teachers to maintain existing standards and to secure the abolition of oversize classes, respectively.

On the assumption that the three-year course of training is introduced in 1960, my right hon. Friend estimates that there will be a net increase of some 15,000 to 20,000 teachers between January, 1958, and January, 1963, inclusive. This would produce some improvement in existing staffing standards, but not nearly enough to reduce all classes to regulation size.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the assumption that he made in April, 1957, of an annual increase of 6,000 in the 1960s—that is ignoring the three-year course introduced in 1960—still holds?

The estimate which I have just given assumes an average net increase each year of between 5,000 and 6,000 teachers until January, 1962, but I would like to say that we realise that this is a point of the greatest importance and that we are considering it most urgently at the moment.

asked the Minister of Education how many local education authorities in their return of staffing, dated January, 1958, were below the quota established in Circular 318.

ninety-six, but of these 59 had less than 2 per cent. fewer teachers than their quota.

Can the Minister state, first, what is the total shortage of teachers in these areas, and secondly, what proposals he has to remedy what even he, with his usual optimism, must admit is a very serious situation?

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will put down his first question. As to the second question, I know that West Bromwich in particular has had great difficulty in finding teachers for next autumn, but we are still watching this position very carefully and we are, as he knows, keeping on the quota system to ensure that other local authorities do not get more than their fair share of teachers.

asked the Minister of Education whether he now has anything further to report in respect of accepting demobilised Service officers, with special training in mathematics and science, as teachers; and what special arrangements have been made for their acceptance and teacher training.

Yes, Sir. By the middle of July about 85 former regular members of the Services of all ranks had been accepted for teacher training courses starting in 1958, and nearly 50 more for 1959. Those with suitable qualifications are being accepted for shortened, one-year courses. I do not know how many have had special training in mathematics and science, but colleges have been asked to give preference, other things being equal, to applicants of this kind.

Is it possible during the period of very great shortage to engage these people for administrative duties so that staff who are greatly overburdened with administrative work, particularly headmasters, may be relieved for teaching duties in the schools which are big enough to benefit from such treatment?

Certainly, I will consider that point and mention it to my right hon. Friend. The figures which I have given seem to show that the normal machinery is working fairly well and that there is no need for special measures.

asked the Minister of Education to what extent the recent circular from his Secondary Schools Examination Council, directing the universities and other bodies examining for the General Certificate of Education to discontinue examinations in certain subjects now widely taught in secondary schools and examined by them, represents a change from his policy of certification of subjects appropriate to the stage of education at all secondary schools; to what extent it represents a return to the policy of certification of subjects appropriate only to a small percentage of students normally at grammar schools seeking admission to a university; and to what extent it affects schools teaching, and girls studying, secretarial subjects.

There is no change of basic policy. This decision follows from policies already long agreed by the Council as regards the criteria for admitting subjects for the General Certificate examination. I cannot agree that it is a retrograde decision as suggested by the hon. Member. While it will inevitably affect schools teaching and pupils studying secretarial subjects, there is nothing to prevent the particular subjects the hon. Member has in mind being examined under other auspices, and they will continue to be taught in the schools as before.

If such subjects as plumbing, needlework and woodwork which are taught in secondary modern schools are to be the subject of examination in the future, why is there this discrimination? Does it not seem to support the suggestion by the hon. Member for Morpeth (Mr. Owen) that there is a lack of appreciation amongst the S.S.E.C. members of the problems of secondary modern schools, and particularly in relation to the subjects taught?

I know that the Council gave this matter very careful thought before coming to a decision. My right hon. Friend feels bound to accept the Council's advice on this very difficult question.

asked the Minister of Education to what extent the recent circular from the Secretary of his Secondary Schools Examination Council affects the academic freedom of each university to conduct examinations in view of the fact that the Council is declining in future to issue the General Certificate of Education to successful candidates in certain subjects hitherto so examined by them and widely taught in secondary schools.

The recent letter in no way affects the freedom of the examining bodies or the universities to conduct examinations in any subjects they wish. But the award of certificates within the General Certificate of Education is my right hon. Friend's responsibility and he must decide, on the best advice available, the suitability of subjects for certification.

Is it not rather unfortunate that in their letter dated 19th April the emphasis is on the shortness of time for preparing fresh syllabuses excluding these subjects, and that it indicates that there is a direction to universities on the subjects in which they should examine?

Let me make it clear that universities and examining bodies are free to organise examinations on their own initiative outside the scope of the General Certificate of Education, and they frequently do so. When the matter was last discussed by the Secondary Schools Examination Council only one member of the Council dissented from the decision which was reached.

asked the Minister of Education the names of the local education authorities in North-East England and the school population in each area; how many children in each district are getting a secondary grammar school education or its equivalent, including the pupils in direct grant schools; and what estimate has been made of the number of school children in each area expressed as a percentage of the population in those areas that could take the grammar school course with advantage if extra accommodation existed.

I am writing to the hon. Member giving him the information asked for in the first two parts of the Question. It would be impossible to make the estimate asked for in the third part of the Question.

The hon. Gentleman said yesterday that in Northumberland there were vacant places which could not be filled. Could he tell me how many vacant places there are in the grammar schools in the county, and whether the existence of these vacant places is due to the fact that the teachers already have too many scholars to teach, or that parents will not send their children to grammar schools; or is it because of their inability in Northumberland to pay the fees?

We discussed this matter early this morning. There is no absolutely consistent description of a grammar school course, and I think the hon. Member should await the letter I am writing.

asked the Minister of Education (1) how many free places the Northumberland Education Committee are providing in private boarding schools, and how many in county boarding schools; what is the average cost to the local education authority of providing a place in a boarding school; and what is the average income of the parents of those who are getting the free places;

(2) how many parents of pupils having places assigned to local education authorities in boarding schools in Northumberland are paying fees; what is the lowest fee, the highest fee, and the average amount being paid; what is the lowest, the highest and the average income of the parents of these children; and what are the occupations in general of those parents who are paying fees to the Northumberland local education authority.

My right hon. Friend does not receive returns which would enable him to answer these Questions.

asked the Minister of Education what plans he has for the development of technical education in the Wrekin area of Shropshire.

The building of a new college of further education at Wellington is expected to start this year. The college will replace and supplement accommodation at the Walker Technical Institute at Oakengates.

asked the Minister of Education what has been the total capital expenditure on schools and colleges in the Wrekin area between 1951 and 1958, which he has authorised.

Between January, 1951 and June, 1958 building projects have been approved to the value of £907,037, excluding furniture and equipment. My right hon. Friend hopes that two more projects costing about £250,000 will soon be ready for final approval.

asked the Minister of Education when he expects the new modern school at Ketley to be completed and ready to take pupils; how many pupils there wlil be; and what he estimates will be the cost of this school.

This school will open in September with about 400 pupils. Its cost on tender, including accommodation for evening classes, was £141,689.

Is my hon. Friend aware that those three answers are very satisfactory and that they confirm that the Wrekin area, which is the old Industrial Revolution area, will receive a secondary school? Secondly, do they not dispose once for all of the idea that the Conservative Party wish to cut education?

I think my answers also confirm that Shropshire has a conspicuously good local education authority.

asked the Minister of Education when the Cornwall Education Committee expects to carry out improvements to the wholly inadequate provision of washbasins, closets and urinal space at Redruth Secondary Grammar School.

Before April, 1959.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary bear in mind that 18 months ago he told me that these improvements would be carried out last year, and that there has been no extension of the offices at this school for 50 years? Is the hon. Gentleman further aware that 50 years ago the school population was half what it is now?

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that this job is one of those costing less than £10,000 which the authority expects to start between January of this year and March of next year.

asked the Minister of Education to what extent nationally children's chances of receiving a grammar school education have declined in the last five years.

The proportion of 13-year-old pupils attending grammar schools or similar courses in other secondary schools excluding comprehensive schools was 20·9 per cent. in 1953 and 20·3 per cent. in 1957.

Will the Parliamentary Secertary recheck these figures? Is it that Newcastle-under-Lyme is peculiar in having suffered a drastic decline in the proportion of children who can receive a grammar school education, or is the introduction of the phrase "courses of a similar character" meant to gloss over the fact that the Minister's policy has whittled down the proportion of children who can get to grammar schools?

No, certainly not. On the whole, plans made by local education authorities for providing new grammar school places will keep up with the current increase in the age groups entering secondary schools, but I hope the hon. Gentleman will not overlook the very great improvement in the secondary modern schools in this country during the term of office of this Government in providing the courses which children require.

asked the Minister of Education, in view of the decline in the percentage of children able to enter grammar schools in Newcastle-under-Lyme from 19·5 in 1954 to 15·4 in 1958, what action he is taking to improve education opportunities in the excepted district.

Work is about to start on a grammar school at Kidsgrove, and a technical school at Biddulph has been approved for starting in the current year's programme.

Whilst applauding the work done in secondary modern schools to provide chances of taking the General Certificate of Education, may I ask whether the Parliamentary Secretary is aware of the anxiety amongst large numbers of parents at the decrease in the proportion of children who are able to get to grammar and high schools having courses of a certain kind, as shown in this Question? What is the Ministry going to do about that?

Let us pay tribute where progress is occurring. Many pupils from Biddulph and Kidsgrove are going to Newcastle, and they will not need to do so when the schools to which I have referred are completed.

Does the hon. Gentleman remember that the President of the Board of Trade, when he was Minister of Education, urged the view that steps should be taken to get greater uniformity in the proportion of grammar school places in different parts of the country and to get it to a figure of something like 25 per cent.? Since he made that statement, has any progress been made in either of those directions?

Yes, we have adjusted building programmes to help those local authorities which are most short of grammar school provisions. Notably I would refer to Nottingham and to Salford. I believe that in general in recent years there has been a great improvement in the average level over the country.

Does not my hon. Friend think that the anxiety over the building of grammar schools has been increased by some of the suggestions made by the party opposite?

asked the Minister of Education if he will state the names of county borough local education committees with 15 per cent. or over of secondary school children still in all-age primary schools, with their respective percentages.

This information is contained in List 69, of which I am sending the hon. Member a copy.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that that list shows that, of 14 local authorities, in nine over 20 per cent. of the children still receive secondary education in all-age schools, in three over 40 per cent. and in one 55 per cent. of the children are still in all-age schools? Since the rural reorganisation was approved to get the proportion of children in the rural areas below 15 per cent., will not the hon. Gentleman stop the ban on urban authorities tackling the job of getting the complete reorganisation into full effect?

We certainly hope to provide a full secondary education at separate senior schools for all senior pupils as soon as economic conditions permit. As, however, the hon. Member knows, the country has suffered from a shortage of resources for capital under successive Governments ever since the war. It would be wrong for me to give optimistic promises which any Government would find it difficult to fulfil in the immediate future.

asked the Minister of Education the teacher-pupil ratio in the independent grammar schools, the direct grammar schools and the State grammar schools, respectively.

In January, 1957, the pupil-teacher ratios in maintained grammar schools, direct grant grammar schools and independent secondary schools recognised as efficient were 18:1, 18:2 and 12:1 respectively. Nearly three-quarters of the pupils in the last-named schools are boarders.

Since the Government claim, as we do, to believe in equality of opportunity as between child and child, how can the Minister justify the disparities in the teacher-pupil ratio, not on educational grounds, but on social grounds? What steps is he taking to remove that disparity?

The short answer surely is that there is the world of difference between levelling down and levelling up. I have answered one or two earlier Questions today about the urgency with which the Government regard the problem of teacher supply generally. It is important, however, to remember that the majority of independent schools to which I have referred are boarding schools. In all boarding schools, including maintained boarding schools, staff ratios always tend to be higher.

asked the Minister of Education whether he is aware that adequate science laboratory accommodation exists in less than 10 per cent. of maintained grammar schools; and what steps he proposes to take to improve the situation.

My right hon. Friend does not accept the hon. Member's assumption, but he has approved a large number of building proposals which will continue the steady improvement of science accommodation at these schools.

Has the hon. Gentleman's attention been drawn to a recent survey, carried out by the National Union of Teachers and three other organisations, published in the current issue of the School Science Review, in which the schools themselves have given the figure of less than 10 per cent. of schools having adequate science laboratories and in which they say, further, that when building projects which are under way are completed only about 16 per cent. of the schools will have adequate science laboratories?

I have noticed that article. The same survey pointed out, however, that 44 per cent. of the schools had science accommodation conforming with the suggestion made in the Ministry of Education's buildings bulletin. It should not be forgotten that extensions to science accommodation at over 100 grammar schools have been approved for the 1958–59 and 1959–60 building programmes. I quite agree with the hon. Member, however, that we certainly should not be content as yet.

Do not the figures given the other day indicate that the amount granted for State-aided schools is much less than that being granted by the Industrial Fund for fee-paying schools?

In my view, the hon. Member, who asked a Question last week, slightly exaggerates the point. My recollection is that the corresponding figures for the same period are £2 million for the maintained schools and about £2¾ million provided by the Industrial Fund. The disproportion is not quite so great as the hon. Member implied in his Question last week.

asked the Minister of Education why the regulations issued by his Department allow lower minimum standards for science laboratories in girls' grammar schools than in boys' grammar schools.

My right hon. Friend's regulations make no such distinction. They lay down standards for the teaching area as a whole, not for laboratories taken separately.

Is the Minister aware that in the survey in the School Science Review it is claimed by those making the survey that one of the reasons for the small proportion of girls taking science subjects in the sixth form compared with boys is the lower standard of accommodation? Will the hon. Gentleman look carefully at this position in view of the fact that we need so many more scientists and that girls' schools ought to provide a larger proportion of them?

I am on record in this House on many occasions as having stressed the importance of girls playing a larger part in our national scientific and technological effort.

asked the Minister of Education whether he is aware of the concern throughout North Dorset at the proposal to amalgamate the Gillingham Grammar School, which originated in the reign of King Henry VIII, with the Gillingham Modern School; and to what extent his approval to the amalgamation was given on the understanding that the proposed new school would be a comprehensive school.

Yes, Sir. My right hon. Friend approved the amalgamation of these schools only after he had thoroughly satisfied himself that this was the best means of meeting the various needs of all the children of secondary school age in the area.

What steps were taken to inform the public that this would be a comprehensive school and to inform parents of their right to object if they so desired? Is my hon. Friend aware that within the last few days, I have had letters signed by over 260 parents stating that they had no previous knowledge of this matter and now wish to object to it?

I have tried carefully to read all the papers on this matter. There is no doubt that the local education authority fully performed its duty of publishing notices under the Act. It is unfortunate that in my hon. and gallant Friend's Question the word "comprehensive" was used in this context, because it tends to excite rather strong passions. The point at issue is a simple one. There was a small two-form entry grammar school and a two-form entry secondary-modern school. After examining the position carefully, my right hon. Friend decided that the educational advantage was on the side of having a four-form entry secondary school because that would be the best for the children in the area.

asked the Minister of Education how many grammar schools in Great Britain have been amalgamated with other schools since the war; and how many of these amalgamations have been in the county of Dorset.

Fifty-five maintained grammar schools in England and Wales, including one in Dorset, had by January, 1958, been amalgamated with schools of other types or extended to accommodate pupils of all levels of ability.

Is my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary aware that the Dorset County Authority proposes to amalgamate three further grammar schools, making four in all, and that this is so much above the national average that I should like him to scrutinise the county's proposals closely?

We have had one case at Bridport; this afternoon my hon. and gallant Friend has a Question concerning Gillingham, and I understand that the Dorset authority proposes to replace the existing school at Beaminster by a school which would admit all pupils of secondary school age in the area. When that proposal comes to us officially with the objections, it will be considered carefully on its educational merits. Surely, that must be the right way to proceed in these matters, as opposed to hon. Members opposite, who wish to require local education authorities to organise education in accordance with a preconceived doctrine. Our method is very different.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary direct his hon. and gallant Friend's attention to the Gallup poll published yesterday in the News Chronicle?

Children are more important than Gallup polls. What we on this side are concerned with is to do our best for the children in all areas of the country.

Has the Minister seen an interesting report in a Dorset local paper reporting proceedings at the Alfred Colfox School, Bridport, in which it was made clear that the fears entertained by some people about the comprehensive school are ill-founded and how well this school is serving the needs of the area?

The important thing, now that my right hon. Friend has made his decision after considering the matter carefully, is that the new secondary school at Gillingham should get off under the best possible auspices with the maximum amount of local good will.

asked the Minister of Education when he now expects work to begin on the construction of a new secondary school at Wilnecote, in the county of Warwick; and why the promise to begin work in the summer of 1958 has not been kept.

It will be several months yet before work will start. Satisfactory sketch plans have taken longer to complete than expected, but they were agreed by my Department last week.

Does the hon. Gentleman recollect that this school was approved on 16th October, 1956, and that on 14th March, 1957, he stated categorically in this House that work would commence in the summer of 1958? Is he not well aware of the enormous difficulties which will arise unless this school is built? Can I rely upon his present statement?

Yes. I very much regret the delay. The project is an instalment of a larger school and it has taken time to solve a large number of complex problems which involved delay. The hon. Member can be assured that he can rest on the statement I have made.

asked the President of the Board of Trade what steps he is taking to open negotiations with the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, for the purpose of extending trade with that country, for a new trade agreement, in view of the readiness of Russia to make similar agreements with other West European nations.

No such negotiations are contemplated. Trade is flowing freely over a wide range of goods and I have no reason to think that it would be assisted by a trade agreement.

Since the President of the Board of Trade himself has expressed the desire for more exports of consumer goods and like manufactures to Russia, and particularly if full benefit is to be derived from yesterday's welcome news of relaxations, will not the right hon. Gentleman seek such an agreement quickly? Has not every other major Western European country signed such an agreement? Why have we not done so?

We do not think that an agreement would help, because the goods which Russia sells us come into this country on open general licence. In other words, there is nothing on our side which we could offer. It is our information that the Soviet Government are limited only by shortage of sterling from buying more than they are buying now.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that British subsidiaries of United States companies are being prevented from selling to Russia and China goods not on the embargoed list because of United States restrictions on the parent companies; and whether he will discuss this problem with the American Government, with a view to removing these restrictions on British firms.

No, Sir; but if I had information of a specific case, I would look into the matter further.

Is the right hon. Gentle-aware that there are British firms making innocuous articles such as typewriters and electric shavers, which are not allowed to export such goods to China because of the total embargo on the export of any goods to China by the parent companies? Will he raise this matter with the American Government if I send him particulars?

I think the hon. Lady would do well to wait and see the changes in the embargo list.

It does not affect them.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is satisfied that the continued improvement in quality and price of British products is sufficient to maintain this country's volume of trade in competitive export markets; and if he will make a statement.

Yes, Sir. I am convinced British products can sell on their merits and that prices are broadly competitive.

Is my right hon. Friend not convinced that the vast majority of British manufacturers produce really reliable goods at fair prices? Can he take any steps to stop the nagging of hon. Members opposite, who pick out an infinitesimal number of British manufacturers and thereby do the country a great deal of harm?

I agree with my hon. Friend that the quality of British goods remains high. What we need is vigorous salesmanship.

asked the President of the Board of Trade what steps he intends to take under the powers conferred upon him by the Distribution of Industry Act to help those parts of Lancashire now seriously affected by conditions in the cotton industry.

I gave the House yesterday, in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Cheadle (Mr. Shepherd), a list of the places where the Government are ready to give financial assistance under the powers conferred by the Act. None of the cotton towns is on that list because, I am glad to say, none is suffering from high and persistent unemployment.

I am obliged to my right hon. Friend for his Answer, though I appreciate that it was, to some extent, anticipated by his statement yesterday. In view of the need for diversification, is he aware that there is a real danger now that both material and human resources may not be fully employed in the not-too-distant future, and will he accept my plea, therefore, that he take the most vigorous action to exploit all the powers given to him under the Act, and any more he can get hold of, to anticipate events so far as he can rather than wait until the moment has arrived when we are in serious difficulty?

I appreciate my hon. Friend's anxieties, and I assure him that we are watching the position very carefully.

As the omission of all the cotton areas from the list has come as a shock to many people, will the President of the Board of Trade say now, since he did not make his statement in the House, whether the unemployment percentage was his sole reason for leaving them out?

Yes, the unemployment percentage is the criterion we use, and I am glad to say that, at present, there is not high and persistent unemployment in the cotton towns.

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will state the percentage reduction, during the past three years, of import prices of raw materials; to what extent benefits from the reductions accrued to the export trades; and what was the comparable percentage of reductions of export prices.

The index of import prices of basic materials rose by 9 per cent. between June, 1955, and April, 1957, and fell by 15 per cent. betwen April, 1957 and June, 1958. I cannot estimate the varying benefits to the export trades, but the proportion of the value of all manufactures attributable to imported materials is about one-quarter, and there is a considerable time lag before changes in prices could be reflected in those of the finished product. Export prices have increased by 8 per cent. over the same period, although they stopped rising about a year ago.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that our balance of payments benefited to the extent of approximately £258 million during the past six years? If so, having regard to the importance of the export trade, should that not reflect itself in benefits in prices in the export trade?

I agree with the hon. Gentleman that the terms of trade have moved in our favour, but the proportion of the price in exports attributable to a fall of 15 per cent. in the imported content is really quite small.

asked the President of the Board of Trade the percentage of reduction in the price of imported raw materials during the past twelve months, and the percentage price reductions charged to manufacturing industries.

The index of import prices of basic materials fell by about 15 per cent. between June, 1957, and June, 1958. There is no index of prices paid by manufacturing industry for imported materials.

In view of the importance of the export trade, particularly for the future, has not the time arrived when the President of the Board of Trade should consider the serious effect of action taken by those trade associations which maintain the prices of raw materials to the extent that they do?

If the hon. Gentleman could give me information on that subject, I should be glad to have it, but I think that the lower prices of imported materials are beginning to work their way through the economy.

asked the President of the Board of Trade (1) if he will give details of the specific quotas to be allotted for the purchase of fresh, dried, and canned fruits from the United States of America under the recent agreement to import some $20 million worth of such foodstuffs; and

(2) what representations he has received from Commonwealth Governments or producer interests in respect of the recent agreement to import some $20 million worth of fruit into the United Kingdom, having regard to the fact that Commonwealth supplies of certain fruits are likely to be in excess of the demand from the British market; what answers have been given; and what decisions have been made.

We are in close and confidential communication with the Commonwealth Governments on this matter. I hope to publish the specific quotas in about a week's time.

In view of the fact that Commonwealth producers can supply most of the needs of this country, but not all, can my right hon. Friend say whether this has been taken into account in fixing the quotas? He will be aware that there is some doubt and misapprehension among Commonwealth producers on this score.

The Commonwealth Governments have, on the whole, welcomed this change, which is, I think, better than receiving the fruit under aid, and we do take into consideration, as my hon. Friend knows, the interests of the producers themselves.

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware of the need for export industries to provide shipments to replace diminishing coal exports from the Port of Barry; if he will take steps to promote the establishment in Barry of such industries; and if he will make a statement.

I wish that the port facilities available in Barry were used to the full. They are borne in mind in any discussions which my Department have with possible users.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that it is difficult for the port to build up any general cargo traffic unless there is a regular volume of bottom cargo available and large cargo liners call regularly? Will he bring this to the attention of the people concerned?

Yes, Sir.

asked the President of the Board of Trade what conditions he attaches to the grant in aid of the British Holidays and Travel Association; and whether he will exercise supervision over the inclusion of hotels in their list of hotels officially recommended to tourists from abroad.

As the conditions attaching to the grant-in-aid are lengthy, I will, with permission, circulate them in the OFFICIAL REPORT. To the second part of the Question, the answer is "No, Sir". The compilation of a hotel guide demands knowledge and experience which a Government Department does not possess.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this official list includes the Goring Hotel, Victoria, which refused admission to three coloured American ladies despite the fact that they had booked their rooms many months in advance? As the Minister responsible for tourism, does he not feel that he should take some steps to prevent the colour bar spreading to London hotels or, at any rate, express his personal detestation of the practice?

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving me the opportunity to say that I deplore very much discrimination on grounds of colour.

asked the President of the Board of Trade how many Government-owned and privately-owned factories in Wales are at present vacant or likely to be vacant; and what steps are being taken to bring new industries to them.

There are 13 Government-owned factories in Wales which are, or are likely to become, vacant. Two of these are being re-let, and it is hoped that a third will be sold shortly. Every effort is being made to bring the others, and also such privately-owned factories as are known to the Board of Trade, to the attention of suitable firms.