asked the Paymaster-General to what extent the decline in iron and steel production, particularly in the heavy section, is due to the reduction in orders from Government Departments and the nationalised industries.

I regret that, as complete information is not available, I can reply only as regards direct deliveries of steel. Total steel deliveries in the first nine months of this year were 968,000 tons lower than deliveries in the same period last year. A reduction in deliveries to the railways and coal mines accounted for 124,000 tons of this. The corresponding figures for heavy steel are 356,000 tons and 99,000 tons respectively.

Is not the Minister aware that this increase and much of the short-time work in the heavy steel industry, especially on Tees-side, are due to the falling off of orders from the nationalised industries? Can the right hon. Gentleman say what action he is now taking to increase orders so that we can get up to 100 per cent. in volume again?

Certainly the orders from the railways and the coal mines have had a substantial effect. Both these industries are aware of that and of what they can do to help the steel industry. I think that the biggest single factor has been the fall in export demand.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what deliveries to the shipbuilding industry have been made in the same period?

I am afraid that I cannot; not without notice.

asked the Paymaster-General what proportion of the sheet rolling mill capacity of steelworks in South West Wales, South East Wales, and North Wales, respectively, was rolling sheet steel during the last week for which figures are available.

The respective figures for the month of October were 95 per cent., 91 per cent. and 100 per cent.

asked the Paymaster-General what directions are given to guide members of public boards appointed by him, including the Iron and Steel Board, in the matter of participation in political controversy affecting the future of the industry for which they are responsible.

None, Sir. Members of these boards are only asked to refrain from political activities in so far as such activities might be held to affect their fitness to carry out their duties under the law as it stands.

Would the right hon. Gentleman not agree that members of electricity boards and the National Coal Board have always shown great restraint in matters of political controversy despite tremendous provocation? Is it too much to ask that members of the Iron and Steel Board follow the precedent?

I am not aware that they have been doing anything else.

asked the Paymaster-General (1) when a decision can now be expected concerning pensions for retired mineworkers not covered by the National Coal Board pensions scheme;

The union proposed that pensions should be paid out of the mineworkers' pension scheme to miners who had retired before the inception of the scheme. My noble Friend has the greatest sympathy with the union's objective, but after the most careful consideration he has been unable to find any way in which this could be achieved without breach of pensions principles involving inevitable and costly repercussions. My noble Friend has accordingly, and with very real regret, had to confirm that he is unable to approve the union's proposal.

Is the Paymaster-General aware that his reply will cause great dissatisfaction throughout the coalfields? Is he also aware that these men have made some contribution, and does he not agree that some ways could be found of paying a gratuity or a pension for services rendered in the same way as already the National Coal Board finds ways and means of getting round the matter when appointing officials to higher office?

I say once again that my noble Friend appreciates very much the motives underlying this matter, but after a most careful examination of all involved, he has been unable to approve the proposal put forward by the unions.

Is the Paymaster-General aware that, following the very favourable actuarial report on this fund, both participants in the scheme, the National Union of Mineworkers and the National Coal Board, were willing for these retired miners to be included? Why should not the Minister find some means of bringing in these men when both parties are agreed?

There are a number of reasons. I do not accept that there are ample funds available in the scheme. I understand that the Board was willing to agree on the assumption that no extra cost fell upon it. I am not sure that that is so. Such calculations as I have available show that that condition is by no means certain of fulfilment.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that this money does not belong to the Government? It is raised by the people employed in the industry. By what right do the Government interfere with the distribution of funds made available in the industry? What have the Government got to do with this?

The Government have statutory responsibilities in this field, but I must point out that these moneys belong to certain trustees who hold them on behalf of the members of the existing fund. If these trustees were to pay the moneys out to other people then they might well be liable to legal action.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible opportunity.

asked the Paymaster-General what general directions have been given to the National Coal Board to carry out further research on the extraction of oil from coal; and what steps have been taken to comply with such directions.

None, Sir. The British Coal Utilisation Research Association, in which the National Coal Board has a large interest, is playing an important part in the general scheme of research which is being carried out under the auspices of the Ministry of Power.

In view of the increasing stocks of coal and the fact that if the stocks could be used in this way it might have a bearing on imports, does not the right hon. Gentleman think that he should do something more to step up research along these lines?

I can assure the hon. Lady that my noble Friend and everyone concerned in the industry recognise what great advantages could be achieved from successful research in this matter, and efforts are being made by all concerned, the National Coal Board, the Department and trade associations.

asked the Paymaster-General if he will give a general direction to the National Coal Board to investigate and report on the likely effects of mining subsidence in the United Kingdom, with particular reference to the probable incidence of flooding.

No, Sir. In view of its obligations under the Coalmining (Subsidence) Act, the National Coal Board is constantly studying these effects.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the grave concern about this matter, especially among local authorities in the Eccles division, where canals are grouted and the surrounding land is allowed to sink so that we are in danger in future of creating artificial lakes? Does he not think that consultation with the local authorities and the discussion on future plans to avoid these disasters would be better than attemping to mitigate them after subsidence has taken place? Does not he, and the National Coal Board realise how grave and costly the danger is likely to be?

There is very close and continuous consultation on all these matters, but if the hon. Member has in mind any instance in particular in which he thinks that danger might arise and will let me know, I shall be glad to communicate it to the National Coal Board.

asked the Paymaster-General if he will now give a general direction to the National Coal Board to cease making further contracts for the importation of coal.

No, Sir. The National Coal Board, in accordance with present Government policy, has made no new contracts for imports since 1957.

When is it expected that these contracts will terminate?

I think the only deliveries still to be made under these contracts are certain tonnages of Belgian coal which are likely to spill over into the beginning of 1959.

asked the Paymaster-General how many members of the National Coal Board are excluded, under the terms of their appointment, from pension rights upon retirement.

Apart from the part-time Board members, of whom there are three, none of the members of the National Coal Board is excluded from pension rights under the terms of his appointment.

I am indebted to the Paymaster-General for that very informative reply. Will he please note the contrast between the treatment of those top-level executives with very short terms of service and that of the miners who have spent a life-time in the industry?

With respect, I do not think that that is an entirely fair point. The Government's policy, which, I understand, has been the policy for some time is to continue the pension arrangements to which a full-time member was entitled before appointment, or, if he was not otherwise entitled, subject to 10 year's qualifying service to give terms analogous to those of the Board's staff pensions scheme. I think that is perfectly reasonable.

asked the Paymaster-General if, in order to utilise to the maximum the abundant supplies of small coal now available, he will issue general directions in the national interest to the Central Electricity Generating Board to abandon entirely the use of oil in power stations, to the Gas Council to concentrate all possible resources on developing processes for the hydrogenisation of small coal, and to the National Coal Board to discuss terms for the sale of coal to power stations such as will enable the electricity boards to offer in bulk off-peak supplies of energy for space heating at low and competitive prices.

No, Sir. I am satisfied that the industries concerned are already doing everything practicable to develop the uses of small coal.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that these are all sensible and practical suggestions which would go a long way to reduce the surplus stocks of small coal? If the Minister is not prepared to take positive action on lines of this kind, what really is the point of having a Minister of Power?

The last question goes a little wide, but to go through the three points of the Question: as for the use of coal in power stations, as I said in a recent debate—and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) agreed with me—we must not ask the electricity industry to go to the extent of breaking contracts, but short of that it is reducing the use of oil as much as possible; the Gas Council is doing a great deal of work on the hydrogenation of small coal; the National Coal Board's terms of sale of coal to the power stations seems essentially a commercial matter in which the Coal Board should take the initiative.

asked the Paymaster-General if he will give some general information about the scientific investigation which is being carried on into the uses of coal as a by-product.

My noble Friend attaches great importance to the development of coal as a source of oil, chemicals and other by-products. Much work is being done in this field by the many organisations concerned. I would refer the hon. Member to the Annual Reports of the National Coal Board and the Gas Council and the Fuel Research Report of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research for information about the work for which they are responsible.

In view of the decline in the demand for coal due to competition from oil, and in view also of the likely further decline due to the competition of atomic power, does the right hon. Gentleman not think that this is a matter of urgency? We in this country have had a mineral upon which the country's economy has been based for generations. Surely we should make more use of this?

I entirely accept everything the hon. Member says about the importance of research into the use of coal, and I can assure him that this is well understood by my noble Friend, the Department and industry.

Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied at the speed with which the Coal Board is able to produce smokeless fuel from coal it is already producing? In view of the demands for smokeless fuels as a result of the operation of the Clean Air Act, does he not think that research into that, and possibly a little more money spent upon it, may be necessary at this stage?

I should not like to give an answer off the cuff to the right hon. Gentleman. If he will put that question down I shall be glad to give him an answer.

asked the Paymaster-General what proposals Her Majesty's Government have for recommending that the Coal Board be allowed to increase its annual borrowing powers.

An Order providing for an increase in the borrowing limit in the current financial year will shortly be laid before the House.

The right hon. Gentleman, I am sure, is aware of the plight of the Coal Board, with 17 million or 18 million tons of undistributed coal in stock, so that obviously money is tied up. When this Order is brought before the House, shall we be able to debate the general situation in the coal industry?

This Order is subject to an affirmative Resolution of the House. What we are allowed to debate is a matter for you, Mr. Speaker, and not for me.

While so many of these nationalised industries are facing great problems, is it not folly to add other industries to the nationalised industries?

asked the Paymaster-General if he will now bring to an end the arrangement under which his Department still exercises control over coal prices and give to the National Coal Board full responsibility for price determinations.

No, Sir. The purpose of the "Gentleman's Agreement" was approved by the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries, although they questioned its informality, and my noble Friend considers that purpose equally important today.

Will the right hon. Gentleman not agree that the Select Committee oil Nationalised Industries recommended commercial freedom for the Coal Board subject to reserve direction by the Minister? In view of the increasingly competitive conditions which the Coal Board is facing, will not the Minister look at the matter once again?

My noble Friend is always very willing to look at this or any other matter again on representations from hon. Members, but, as far as I can recall, what the Select Committee was concerned about was not so much the existence of the control as the method by which it was enforced. I may be wrong.

Does this gentlemen's agreement apply to the prices to be charged for coal or coke for export?

I am afraid I do not know the answer to that offhand, but its general purpose, of course, is to control pithead prices of coal. My impression is that in export matters there is maximum freedom for the Coal Board. I will look into it to ensure that is so.

asked the Minister of Supply how many and which transport aircraft are on order for the Royal Air Force.

Twenty Britannias.

Will the Minister ask the Secretary of State for Air why there is no replacement on order for the Valetta or Beverley? This continual delay is giving great pleasure to the American aircraft industry and causing great concern to the British.

The hon. Gentleman should address that question to my right hon. Friend. I only place orders on requirements determined by the Services.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that because of the delay in reaching decisions on these matters American aircraft are being used to transport British troops and their families to the Commonwealth?

That also, I think, is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Air.

Do not this and other Questions on the Paper to the right hon. Gentleman indicate that there is considerable ambiguity in this House and elsewhere as to the Government's intentions for the future of the aircraft industry, and could the right hon. Gentleman be a little more specific about the Government's intentions, if not today, in the foreseeable future?

There may be some ambiguity in the minds of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen, but there is no ambiguity as to the relative functions of the Service Ministers and myself. The Questions put to me are all concerned with the requirements of the Services. I do not determine the requirements of the Services. I place orders on the industry when the requirements have been formulated.

Is it not somewhat distressing to the right hon. Gentleman that his colleagues should not inform him in specific terms about their requirements, leaving him completely in the dark?

The right hon. Gentleman should be aware that certain requirements are being considered by the Secretary of State for Air, but no orders have so far been served on me.

Is it not the Minister's job to bring before the Government, and especially the Secretary of State for Air, the evidence he has about the disastrous effect on the British aircraft industry of the continued delay on the part of his Service colleagues?

asked the Minister of Supply what surface-to-surface missiles are being developed for the Royal Air Force; and which of them use solid fuel.

No solid fuel surface-to-surface weapon is being developed for the Royal Air Force.

Does this mean that it is the intention to rely entirely on American solid fuel missiles?

No, Sir. Research is being undertaken, as I have told the hon. Member before, into propulsion by means of solid fuels, but as yet no ground-to-ground weapon incorporating solid fuel techniques has been decided upon.

asked the Minister of Supply if he will state the nature of the work carried on by the Fairey Aviation Company Limited as his agents at Royal Air Force, Valley, Anglesey; and how many civilians are employed on this work.

The Fairey Aviation Company's work at Valley has been in support of the R.A.F.'s trials and training programme with the "Fireflash" guided missile. They employ 38 civilians, of whom 34 were locally recruited.

Is the Minister in a position to say whether or not these civilians and also the civilians employed by the Air Ministry are shortly to be made redundant, making a total of 85 civilians? In view of the already grave employment situation in Anglesey, would the Minister be able to inform us that he will do everything to ensure that civilians will continue in employment?

Acceptance trials of the weapon are shortly to be terminated. My work in connection with the acceptance trials is, therefore, also to be terminated and the agency is to be dissolved. In those circumstances, I have no longer any requirement for this kind of work.

asked the Minister of Supply what progress is being made in finalising the specification of a supersonic airliner.

As the House is aware, a research study is in progress. The final report, however, is not expected to be available for some time.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that his reply to my Question does not take us very much further? Is he also aware that this is a very important matter which may seem a long way off today but which will mean a great deal to Britain in years to come? Will he, therefore, try to give the House a little more information about what is being done?

I agree that this is a very important matter. On the other hand, I think it important, first of all, to determine what the most economic shape of a supersonic civil aircraft is likely to be. At this stage I would say that it is more important to have clarity of conception than to plunge into pell-mell execution.

asked the Minister of Supply what representations he has made to the Service Ministers with a view to speeding up a co-ordinated decision on the Beverley and Canberra replacements.

I am in close touch with my colleagues on both projects.

Whilst appreciating that we are wasting our time in questioning the Minister of Supply at all on these problems, may I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is not aware that with the contraction of the aircraft industry many aircraft firms are put in an invidious predicament? Is he aware that they are interested in these replacements, are waiting for orders and are specially holding on to skilled labour? This kind of thing cannot go on for ever. What does the Minister intend to do to alleviate the situation?

As I have told the hon. Member more than once, any questions on Service requirements should be directed to the Service Ministers.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the specification issued by his own Department to the aircraft industry went out over eighteen months ago? What is the reason for this continued delay when the matter is desperate for so many people who are working in the factories?

If my hon. Friend will look at the record, he will find that "eighteen months" is an exaggeration, but again I do not determine the requirements.

Does the right hon. Gentleman, as Minister of Supply, not recognise his responsibility, as have all other Ministers of Supply, for the future of the British aircraft industry? In that connection, are not all these Questions relevant to his responsibility?

Yes, Sir. I recognise my responsibility for the aircraft industry, but I cannot place orders on the industry merely for the sake of maintaining the industry. I can only place orders on requirements determined by the Services.

Are not the Minister's answers an implied condemnation of the Government? Is not the right hon. Gentleman in some difficulty, and could we not help to extricate him from that difficulty by suggesting that some day, when the Secretary of State for Air is sitting where the right hon. Gentleman is now sitting, the right hon. Gentleman should come over to us and interrogate him?

The right hon. Gentleman could certainly help me out of my difficulty by not addressing to me questions which are not properly for me.

asked the Minister of Health (1) if his attention has been drawn to the article "Addiction to Unrestricted Drugs", a copy of which has been sent to him, in the British Medical Journal, 18th October; and what action he proposes to take on the problems raised;

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and I have invited the Interdepartmental Committee on Drug Addiction to consider and advise us upon the problem of preparations, including carbromal preparations, which are outside the scope of the Dangerous Drugs Act but which may be liable to produce addiction or to be habit-forming. The Committee has not yet concluded its consideration of this question.

Whilst thanking the Minister for the action which has already been taken, may I ask whether he is not aware that this is a responsible article which gives case histories of people who have been affected by these drugs? Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman speed consideration by the Committee which is studying these drugs and also speed some action to place them on the poisons list so that we can protect people from the present large sale of these drugs?

Certainly this is a responsible article, but it does not add to the information which is already before the Committee: and that Committee is proceeding as rapidly as its wide duties will permit. Making a drug a poison is a matter for consideration by the Poisons Board which makes its recommendations to the Home Secretary.

Whilst welcoming the Minister's statement, may I ask whether he would not consider enlarging the Committee's terms of reference with a view to improving the machinery devised to examine the various products which are coming on the market now? Surely the machinery is not adequate to cope with the increasing number of products now being put out by the proprietary houses?

The right hon. Lady will appreciate that the terms of reference are already wide, in that they require the Committee to consider whether any advice that it gives on narcotic drugs should extend to other drugs which are liable to produce addiction or be habit-forming. The two drugs, carbromal and bromvaletone, were specifically referred to the Committee, but, of course, the Committee's consideration is not limited to them.

In considering this matter, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman carefully keep in mind the possible danger to patients of unnecessarily restricting the freedom of action of medical practitioners?

That is another consideration. As the hon. Member knows, guidance is given, I think acceptably, to the medical profession in these matters.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is satisfied with the provision of places at suitable centres for the training of mentally-handicapped children in Sunderland.

No, Sir, but I understand that the local health authority proposes to provide a new centre in the near future.

Can my hon. Friend state the number of places per thousand of the population and how this compares with the rest of the country?

Not without notice.

asked the Minister of Health if he will direct local authorities to provide vocational training and welfare services for the deaf, seeing that he has already directed them to provide such services for the blind.

I have recently asked the relatively few local authorities without welfare schemes for the deaf to give fresh consideration to their adoption and I hope they will do so without any direction. Vocational training is available to disabled persons—including deaf persons—under the Disabled Persons (Employment) Act, 1944.

While I welcome that Answer in so far as the Minister has taken action to help the deaf, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman say why it is necessary to direct local authorities in the case of the blind and not in the case of the deaf?

The direction in the case of the blind was only, in effect, a direction for continuance, because welfare services for the blind were already being provided by all authorities at the appointed day in 1948.

How many local authorities have already provided schemes for training the deaf?

One hundred and sixteen out of the total of 146 authorities have adopted welfare schemes for the deaf and further schemes for submission are under consideration.

Are they training schemes?

No; these are the welfare schemes. The training is a matter for the Ministry of Labour, although, of course, there is co-ordination in respect of these two activities.

asked the Minister of Health whether he will consult the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs about the desirability of setting up a joint board of the food and drugs authorities in Greater London with responsibility and power to ensure full coverage by regular monitoring for radioactive content of all foods entering the Greater London area, and of all atmosphere and water affecting people in the Greater London area.

My right hon. Friend and I cannot see any special advantage in having a joint board for this purpose.

Does the Minister not regard it as urgent that existing monitoring arrangements should be supplemented and extended in some way and that a vast central population like that of London should be represented, so that all available figures for the London area can be interpreted and published?

I have no reason to think that there is a greater element of risk to foodstuffs entering the Greater London area than elsewhere in the country. I do not think that a joint board could, as a matter of machinery, add to the efficacy with which this matter is being treated.

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman bear in mind that this is not a purely academic question so far as London is concerned? Does he recall that immediately after the Windscale accident, there was a quite high increase in radioactivity in the London area as a result? Some better co-ordination ought to be devised.

I rather doubt whether the institution of a joint board would have materially affected this matter.

Can the Minister tell the House what kind of machine has been devised? When the Prime Minister answers these questions, he always forgets that the danger is cumulative, which means that every little degree of radioactivity matters to the individual. The time has come when the House should be told how the Departments are organising themselves so that there shall be detection of infection.

The right hon. Lady does my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister considerably less than justice. The House will recall that his statement of 31st October last year gave a detailed account of the monitoring machinery in practice and the oversight of the monitoring under Lord Rothschild's Committee and its special sub-committee that was set up under Dr. Loutit, Director of the Medical Research Council Radio-biological Research Unit. It is all in HANSARD.

If the Minister looks at that statement, he will see that whenever the Prime Minister answers Questions on this subject, he entirely ignores the latest report of the United Nations.

I do not think so. My right hon. Friend's Answer was a long one and fully merits re-reading and reconsideration by the right hon. Lady.

asked the Minister of Health the present arrangements for the monitoring for radioactivity of fish before it is available for sale to the public.

My right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has arrangements for monitoring the effluent from atomic energy establishments where it might affect fish in the neighbourhood. I have no reason to think that fish landed in this country carry an appreciable risk of contamination as they come from grounds far distant from any area used for nuclear test explosions.

Does the Minister realise that the discharge of radioactive waste into the sea has caused considerable public disquiet? Is it not important that there should be regular monitoring of fish to make quite sure that the public are protected from any contamination which may have occurred in any part of the world, as the currents of the sea are constantly moving?

The Prime Minister has described the general monitoring arrangements. If what the hon. Lady has in mind is the monitoring of effluents that might affect the fish, or the monitoring of the fishing grounds, that would be a question for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.

Can my right hon. and learned Friend give an assurance that there will be a ban on red herrings during the period of the next election?

asked the Minister of Health what are the present arrangements for the monitoring for radioactivity of food imported into this country.

With the exception of imported flour, which was included in the monitoring programme undertaken by the Agricultural Research Council referred to by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 31st October, 1957, no special tests are made of imported food. I have no reason to think that there is any appreciable risk from this source.

Would the Minister look at this again? Does he not think it important to make sure that the public is adequately protected, in view of the variations in radioactive fall-out affecting food differently in different parts of the world from which we have imports?

Naturally that is a matter to which we all give careful consideration, but if the hon. Lady will refresh her memory of what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said on 31st October, she will see that there is this detailed procedure in operation at the present time.

asked the Minister of Health what steps he is taking in view of the fact that the Annual Report of his Chief Medical Officer reveals that in Sunderland there is only one dental practitioner to 9,210 persons.

The shortage of dentists is a general problem which affects the country as a whole. I told the House on 24th July last that the Government had accepted the recommendation in the Report of the McNair Committee regarding the need to expand the facilities for training dental students. Steps are being taken to stimulate recruitment as recommended by that committee.

Whilst appreciating the general problem, does not the Minister recognise that this revelation is a shock to some of us in Sunderland and that we are very badly off in this respect? Can nothing be done to ensure that dentists are better distributed?

I have, of course, no power to direct dentists to particular areas, nor would I wish to have. There is a general problem, and Sunderland will be helped as we expand the dental training facilities in the way I have described.

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware of the increasing numbers of established doctors who are leaving general practice under the National Health Service to emigrate overseas; and whether he will make appropriate inquiries into this trend.

I have no reliable evidence of any increase in the emigration of general practitioners but will gladly study any which my hon. Friend can produce. Information on the emigration of doctors and dentists generally submitted by the Government to the Royal Commission is published in the Commission's Minutes of Evidence 14–15 for 17th–18th April, 1958.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that there was a feature last week in the British Medical Journal which shows this trend and, if I send it to him, will he kindly give it his consideration?

I shall always be glad to study any evidence which my hon. Friend produces.

Would my right hon. and learned Friend agree that if this migration is to parts of the Commonwealth which are short of doctors, such emigration, whether permanent or on a temporary secondment basis, should be encouraged by his Department?

Yes, of course, Sir. My specific statutory responsibility is to provide a National Health Service in this country, but I am not unmindful of the considerations to which my hon. Friend has properly referred.

asked the Minister of Health if he will now make a statement on doctors' pay.

I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Putney (Sir H. Linstead) on 20th November.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that his reply has given the country the impression that these rather stingy ad hoc hand-outs to the medical and dental profession indicate a complete lack of Government policy towards the National Health Service? Can he say whether in these days of expanding economy this concession should be taken as an encouragement by all the other ancillary workers who have claims before him, such as the radiographers, the psychiatric social workers, the laboratory technicians, the orthoptists, the chiropodists—the list is too long for me to give all the people in the National Health Service who are entitled to better treatment from the right hon. and learned Gentleman?

If the country did form any such impression as the hon. Lady first referred to, it would be an erroneous impression through a wrong understanding of the facts. This is neither stingy, nor piecemeal; it is a 4 per cent. increase costing £5 million, and is given because the Royal Commission is taking longer to report than had originally been thought probable.

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware of the fact that Derbyshire's Chief Health Inspector has reported that health inspectors in that county in 1957 condemned more than one and a half tons of imported apples as heavily contaminated with lead and arsenic, and that all stocks were not traced; and if he will tighten the import inspection arrangements to prevent contaminated fruit leaving the ports.

I am aware of this report. Representations were made in 1957 to the country from which the apples came and the authorities there arranged for subsequent consignments to be washed or cleaned before export. It is not always practicable to detain a large consignment at the port pending the results of analysis. In such cases Port Health authorities get in touch with the local authorities concerned as soon as possible.

May I ask the Minister why it is not possible to hold fruit at the ports while the analysis is being made? It seems to me to be absolute madness to allow large quantities of these apples to be spread about the country, as they obviously are at the present time.

This analysis can only be made effectively on a sampling basis. Since the goods are perishable, it is not feasible to detain the whole consignment.

asked the Minister of Health what action he has taken to protect the public against the dangers of food poisoning and paratyphoid fever caused by contaminated imported egg products.

Public health and certain other local authorities have been asked to pay special attention to the sampling of imported egg products for bacteriological examination. They try wherever possible to sample every batch, and measures are taken to prevent any batch found infected from giving rise to a public health risk. Representations have been made to the authorities of several exporting countries that products should be bacteriologically examined before export.

In view of this situation, which has been going on for some years now, in which there have been continuous reports of serious infection in this way, has the Minister had any conversation with the President of the Board of Trade about checking further imports?

My right hon. and learned Friend will have heard what the hon. Gentleman said, but I have witnessed the machinery which is in operation for checking the imports at one of our principal ports, and can say that I am satisfied that it works very well.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware of the worsening condition of children's teeth as shown by studies published by his Department; and what action he has taken to improve the preventive aspect of the dental services.

I am aware of the position. I am encouraging dentists to give more time to the conservation of children's teeth, and they are doing so. I am also taking steps to increase dental health education, which is now being coordinated by the Independent Standing Committee recommended by the McNair Report. Studies of the fluoridation of water supplies as a preventive measure are also proceeding in three areas of Great Britain.

Does not the right hon. and learned Gentleman feel that we have got beyond the stage of further studies about the addition of fluorides? Is it not about time that we took more definite action about it in view of the very disturbing reports from his Ministry's records of the steadily worsening condition of children's teeth?

No, Sir. The fluoridation demonstrations have been initiated and they are expected to produce some very useful information, hut the hon. Gentleman and the House will appreciate that that is only one of the various ways in which we are seeking to attack the problem.

Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman not agree that this matter has been discussed since 1950 or 1951, and surely we do not need further examination of the fluoride position with all the experience that there is in many parts of the world to tell us how valuable it can be?

We think we do or we should not have initiated the studies.

asked the Minister of Health how many children up to 15 years of age, to the latest available date, have been registered for inoculation against poliomyelitis; how many of such children have been inoculated once and twice, respectively; what percentage of the child population up to 15 years of age has not been registered for inoculation; and what is the number of such children.

Up to the end of October 7,185,117 children up to 15 years of age in Great Britain had been registered, of whom 6,320,717 had received two doses of vaccine and 303,149 their first injection. Forty-one per cent., or just over 5 million, had still not been registered out of just over 12¼ million eligible children.

Is the Minister satisfied that all possible steps have been taken to persuade parents to register their children, to satisfy them about the extremely slight risks of inoculation, risks comparable to risks with other inoculations, and to give the widest publicity to the need for inoculation against this scourge?

Yes, Sir; I am doing what I can to raise the acceptance rate and am helping local health authorities with their publicity. I fully agree with the hon. and learned Gentleman about the necessity for parents who have not already done so to register their children as soon as possible.

Can the Minister tell the House whether there is still any resistance to the American vaccine?

There are still a few people who have registered for British vaccine without the alternative of accepting American vaccine, but it is a relatively small number.

Is the vaccine supply position now adequate to meet the hoped for increased demand?

Yes, Sir; there are ample supplies of vaccine for further registrations.

asked the Minister of Health when he expects to receive the Report of the Working Party on the Functions and Training of Social Workers; and when the Report will be published.

I understand that the Report is expected to be presented early next year; immediate consideration will then be given to its publication.

Is the Minister aware that many desirable development and training schemes in this field are awaiting the publication of the Report, which is being used by his Department as an excuse for doing nothing? Will he ensure that there is no delay whatever over publication after he receives the Report?

I did not quite hear what the hon. Gentleman said about my Department, but I rather gathered from the expression on his face that it was not complimentary, and so I do not think I missed very much. I will certainly take into account what he says about the importance of publication.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that this is, I think, the third working party on this subject and related subjects in succession to each other, and will he give the House an assurance that he will take action on the Report of this one and not appoint yet another working party to consider the recommendations of this working party?

I am sure that we shall get a very valuable report from the working party, and I shall consider it with a view to both action and publication.

asked the Minister of Health if he will take steps to pay State registered nurses their full salaries whilst they are engaged in training as midwives.

No, Sir. This is a matter, in the first place, for the Nurses and Midwives Whitley Council.

Is there not a real anomaly here? Is not the position that State registered nurses who are taking training in the tuberculosis, ophthalmic and orthopaedic service and in relation to neurosurgery and plastic surgery are actually paid the full salaries of staff nurses during that training? What is the difference? Is the Minister aware that if he took steps to inquire from nurses engaged in this training they would very quickly tell him the reason.

If it is an anomaly, it is pretty well rooted in the past, because this differentiation was established in 1943 and was confirmed by the Whitley Council in 1949 in its reorganisation of the salary structure. However, this matter is to be discussed by both sides of the Whitley Council tomorrow, and we will see what comes out of that.

Will the Minister consider this point? In various parts of the country there is a great shortage of midwives. Paradoxically enough, these midwives, whom we particularly want, very often find it difficult to undertake the necessary training because they are not treated in the same way as other nurses. This is an anomaly that bears hardly upon mothers. I hope, therefore, that the right hon. and learned Gentleman will use his good offices tomorrow.

It would, of course, appear that that is so. However anomalous the position may or may not be about their remuneration, the numbers coming forward for training are sufficient to meet the full needs of the midwifery profession. The crucial problem is that they do not go on in sufficient numbers to practise midwifery when they are trained. That is a rather different question.

asked the Minister of Health what representations he has received, in connection with the shorter working week for nurses, about the requirement that the first four hours of overtime each week for mental nurses shall be unpaid.

I have received representations that the rule providing for additional payment to mental nurses for excess hours worked should be amended. This is a separate question from the efforts now being made, in accordance with the Whitley Council's recommendation which I accepted, to secure a reduction in working hours in all hospitals by reorganisation of the nursing services.

Is the Minister aware that, in effect, this rule means that the mental nurses notice no difference whatever from the introduction of a shorter working week? Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman at least give an assurance that he will not instruct his representatives on the Nurses and Midwives Whitley Council to oppose any rectification of the situation when the matter arises?

The last part of that question is hypothetical. It is a little early yet to say what will be the effect of the recommendation of May last until I have received the reports of how the arrangement is working out in the actual experience of hospital management committees.

Is the Minister aware of the serious position in which we find ourselves concerning the recruitment of mental nurses? Will he try to secure, at least, that there is no feeling of frustration amongst those coming in and those who train in mental nursing?

Yes, I am aware of the importance of the problems of recruitment. I am certainly anxious to do all that is possible not to have any feelings of frustration amongst these people who are doing this important work.

asked the Minister of Health if he has considered the representations made to him through the Manchester Regional Hospital Board by the West Manchester Hospital Management Committee about the closure of midwifery beds at Park Hospital, Davyhume; and if he will make a statement thereon.

Yes, Sir. The representations are almost entirely concerned with the level of training allowances payable to pupil midwives. I understand that the Nurses and Midwives Whitley Council is about to consider this matter.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that no less than 39 beds have had to be closed in this hospital because of the lack of trained midwives, and that this is entirely due to the lack of incentive both to pupil midwives and to midwives when they have received their training? During training they get £93 a year less than a staff nurse, and when they finish they get only £17 a year more. How does my right hon. and learned Friend expect to get enough midwives to keep these beds open if they are not properly paid?

My answers to the last Question are relevant to that, and particularly my answer to the right hon. Lady the Member for Warrington (Dr. Summerskill). As my hon. Friend knows, I am studying the advice of the National Consultative Council on the broader question to which he refers.

Is the Minister also aware that other beds are having to be closed down in other parts of the country, including North Shields and elsewhere, for the same reason? Will he keep this in mind?

Yes. I am fully aware that this problem is not confined to any particular locality.

asked the Minister of Health how many beds are at present available for chronic sick patients in St. James's Hospital, King's Lynn; and how this compares with the number provided when the hospital was taken over from the Norfolk County Council.

There are now 109 beds, of which 17 are temporarily not available due to repairs and redecoration, compared with 102 in 1948.

Would the hon. Gentleman say whether there are sufficient to meet the requirements, or has he under consideration the question of extending the facilities for accommodation for the chronic sick in that area of West Norfolk?

Yes, Sir, the regional hospital board had a proposal for a substantial measure of rebuilding at St. James's Hospital, but on reconsideration it proved prohibitively expensive and was dropped. The board is now planning a new unit adjoining the West Norfolk and King's Lynn General Hospital to replace St. James's

asked the Minister of Health how many beds are provided in Norfolk by the hospital board for chronic sick patients; what is the percentage regularly occupied; what is the cost, per patient, per week; how many are provided by the county council under joint-user arrangement; and what is the average cost, per patient, per week.

One thousand and thirty-six beds are provided and 87·4 per cent. were occupied on average in 1957. Of these beds 420 are in chronic sick hospitals, where the weekly costs range from £7 10s. 10d. to £11 8s. 10d., and 70 are provided under joint user arrangements with the Norfolk County Council at an average weekly cost of £5 12s. 7d. The remainder are in general hospitals where separate costs for chronic sick patients are not available.

In view of the comparatively lower cost for those in the joint user establishments, and in view of the advantages there are in such establishments, in that the old people do not have to be transferred from one to the other, is it the policy of the Ministry to continue that system or to extend it or to separate them entirely as between county council and hospital board?

The general position is that the regional hospital board acquires responsibility for these patients only when they become too ill for the county council to look after.

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware of the wide disparity of in-patient hospital costs revealed by his Department's recently published hospital costing returns, varying in the case of acute hospitals from £16 Os. 1d. per patient per week for the Middlesbrough General Hospital to £36 9s. 1d. per patient per week for the Royal Northern Hospital with all gradations of cost in between showing wide differences even for apparently similar hospitals; and what steps he proposes to take to find the reason for, and eliminate if possible, such disparities.

I am aware of the wide disparity of costs revealed by the returns. Some variations are inevitable even in hospitals classified in the same broad category, because of differences in local conditions and in the services provided. It is, however, one of the objects of the new costing arrangements to provide a firmer basis of comparison of detailed hospital costs and I have asked hospital authorities to make full use of the published information with a view to improving efficiency and securing economies.

Whilst appreciating what my right hon. and learned Friend is doing in this respect, may I ask him, in view of some of the striking figures I have quoted, if he will not have the widest consultations in this matter concerning hospital costs, including perhaps owners of competent and entirely reputable nursing homes, who apparently are able to run their establishments more cheaply in many instances than do the management committees of these hospitals?

I have already asked regional hospital hoards to report by 1st June, 1959, showing the action taken on the costing returns and, where possible, giving estimates of savings which have resulted.