asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether he will now reconsider his decision not to accept the claim of Mr. P. G. Nicklin, The Home Farm, Dorrington, Shropshire, in view of the fact that this claim has now been supported after consideration of all the evidence, including medical, by the Shropshire War Pensions Committee, which includes representatives of disabled ex-Service men, workmen, employers and local authorities all of whom were appointed by the Minister himself.

My right hon. Friend has again been into this case and the evidence has been studied again by our senior doctors. I am afraid, however, that it was not possible to certify that Mr. Nicklin's disability arises from his service in the 1914–18 War, and it is, therefore, not possible to accept his claim.

With reference to the last part of my hon. Friend's Question, I understand that, at its meeting on 21st January, the Shropshire War Pensions Committee accepted this position.

Can my hon. Friend tell me what is the point of referring this matter to a committee appointed by the Minister and then, when it reports favourably, again turning down its recommendation?

As usual, when my right hon. Friend receives representations from a War Pensions Committee he studies them in the light of all the medical evidence. In this case, he could see no ground for varying his previous decision, and this was explained to the War Pensions Committee and was unanimously accepted by it at its January meeting.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will state the numbers of war pensioners in 1914–18 and 1939–45 categories, respectively, who are 50 per cent. or more disabled, the numbers in each group in receipt of unemployability supplement, the numbers of totally disabled in each group, and for each group the numbers who receive attendance allowance and allowance for lowered standard of occupation, respectively; what is the annual cost of each allowance to each group of war pensioners; and what disabilities the older war pensioners suffer in qualifying for supplementary allowances compared with the 1939–45 war pensioners.

As the reply is long and contains a great many figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

The purport of the question can be answered without the figures. I asked what disabilities the older war pensioners suffer in qualifying for supplementary allowances compared with the 1939–45 war pensioners. Surely the Minister can answer that part of the Question without giving figures.

The hon. Member has asked a very long Question, and it is not easy to reply briefly even to the final part of it. He knows as well as I do—possibly better—that there is a technical difference in this question of eligibility for occupational allowances for the disabled of the two wars. As I have said, it would be better if he studied the very full reply before we entered into discussions.

Will the Minister ask his right hon. Friend to consider very carefully the representations made by B.L.E.S.M.A. on behalf of the 1914–18 men? Will he have another look at the position of those men as it compares with that of the later war pensioners?

My right hon. Friend is always ready to look into this position again. He is seeing a deputation from a variety of ex-Service organisations, including B.L.E.S.M.A., in the very near future.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many old-age pensioners in Salford are in receipt of a National Assistance supplement.

I am informed by the National Assistance Board that figures are not available for the County Borough of Salford, since it is part of a much larger area served by two of the Board's offices. In that larger area, 6,541 retirement pensioners and 669 non-contributory old-age pensioners were receiving weekly National Assistance grants on 16th December last. Some of the grants provided for the requirements of a household with more than one pensioner.

Does not this very high number, which can be repeated in other areas, Show that the present pension is failing utterly to provide a tolerable standard of existence and that it needs raising immediately to at least £3 a week?

No, Sir. The hon. Member will perhaps be comforted to know that the figures which I gave him are lower than the figures for December, 1957. In any event, the retirement pension is now worth more in real terms than at any time before January, 1958.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many old-age pensioners in Wolverhampton are in receipt of supplementary grants under the National Assistance Board.

I am informed by the National Assistance Board that in the area served by the Board's offices in Wolverhampton 4,397 retirement pensioners and 514 non-contributory old-age pensioners were receiving weekly National Assistance grants at 16th December last. Some of the grants provided for the requirements of a household with more than one pensioner.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many old-age pensioners were receiving supplementary grants from the Sutton-in-Ashfield office of the National Assistance Board at the latest available date; and how many were receiving such assistance 12 months earlier.

I am informed by the National Assistance Board that on 16th December last 2,187 retirement pensioners and 146 non-contributory old-age pensioners were receiving weekly National Assistance grants in the area served by the Board's office at Sutton-in-Ashfield, and that the numbers a year previously were, respectively, 2,521 and 168. Some of the grants provided for the requirements of a household with more than one pensioner.

As these figures are still far too high, will the Parliamentary Secretary say when the Government will do something to help the old-age pensioners of today and tomorrow, instead of waiting until the twenty-first century?

Apparently the hon. Member has overlooked that the figures disclose that there are fewer people in receipt of National Assistance now than 12 months ago. I point out to him that the present Government have three times increased the retirement pension and that their record is considerably better than that of his own party.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many old-age pensioners in Salfprd have been granted a National Assistance supplement or an increase in it, and by what total amount, since the Rent Act came into operation.

The information asked for is not available, but the National Assistance Board informs me that since the Rent Act came into operation about 2,900 weekly National Assistance grants payable to recipients of all kinds in the area served by the Board's offices in Salford have been increased, by an average of 5s. 11d., to provide for increases in rent under that Act. It is not known how many of these grants are still in payment.

Does the Minister know that the National Assistance Board is paying these subsidies every week to landlords of houses which are wet, old, unhealthy, without a bath or bathroom, and without hot water or even an inside toilet? Will she tell her colleagues in the Cabinet to what extent public money is being paid to private landlords under the Rent Act?

Increases under the Rent Act could not be applied unless the houses were put into a proper state of repair.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance by how much supplementary grants under the National Assistance Board have increased in Wolverhampton since the introduction of the Rent Act.

The information asked for is not available, but the National Assistance Board informs me that since the Rent Act came into operation about 1,300 weekly National Assistance grants payable to recipients of all kinds in the area served by the Board's two offices in Wolverhampton have been increased, by an average of 6s. 4d., to provide for increases in rent under that Act. This area extends beyond the county borough. It is not known how many of these grants are still in payment.

Is not this another example where the Government are subsidising private landlords? Is it not a fact that there is grave hardship and poverty among the old people as a result of the introduction of the Rent Act?

No, Sir. If rents are to be increased—and Parliament has so enacted—it is surely proper that the statutory Board should accept responsibility for meeting the increase rather than the private landlord, who should be no more expected to provide a subsidised service than is the butcher or the coal merchant.

But this is a subsidy to private landlords.

No, Sir. It is a proper demand for rent. I wonder whether the hon. Member has ever thought that municipalities increase their rents quite often and that, where necessary, those increases are met by the National Assistance Board.

Will my hon. Friend explain to the dunderheads concerned—

Order.

"Dunderhead" is a very abusive word. I do not know that it implies any vicious quality, but I think that the hon. Member should use a more polite word.

I withdraw the word. Will the Minister explain to those with less mental capacity than normal that this is not a subsidy to landlords but a right and proper subsidy to tenants?

I may be a dunderhead, but I am not a stooge of the landlords.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance by how much the total of supplementary grants by the National Assistance Board in Newcastle-under-Lyme has been increased since the Rent Act came into operation.

The information asked for is not available, but the National Assistance Board informs me that since the Rent Act came into operation about 450 weekly National Assistance grants payable to recipients of all kinds in the area served by the Board's Office in Newcastle-under-Lyme have been increased, by an average of 5s. 2d., to provide for increases in rent under that Act. This area extends beyond the town. It is not known how many of these grants are still in payment.

Is it not a fact that this increased public money which is being paid out in Newcastle-under-Lyme is going straight into the landlords' pockets? Is it not a fact that this is due to the fact that the tenants concerned have inadequate pensions to meet higher rents and that this is due to the Government's policy? Do not the Government therefore stand condemned on both these grounds?

I do not follow the hon. Member's reasoning. If the people in his constituency are unable to meet their rents, they can apply to the National Assistance Board for help. These figures prove that the National Assistance Board is providing that help.

But is not the Parliamentary Secretary aware that Parliament is being asked to vote an increased amount of public money which, due to the Government's policy, is clearly to go straight into the landlords' pockets? That is a fact, is it not?

No, Sir. The tenants should enjoy some benefit, because the landlord should put the house in order.

He should.

In any event, let us not obscure the issue. If any person's needs increased, because of a higher rent or for any other reason, and he applied to the National Assistance Board, the Board would meet that need up to the standards allowed.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many persons are receiving supplementary grants from the National Assistance Board in Newcastle-under-Lyme at the latest date for which figures are available.

I am informed by the National Assistance Board that in the area served by the Board's Office in Newcastle-under-Lyme 4,109 weekly National Assistance allowances, including those for persons not receiving pensions or National Insurance benefits, were being paid on 16th December last.

Is this not proof positive, together with the other answers given so far today, of the inadequacy of present pensions? Is it not perfectly clear that in real terms very grave hardship is being suffered? Do not the figures prove it?

No, Sir. I gave the hon. Member the figure of 4,109 on 16th December last. Twelve months prior to that, the figure was 4,402, so that the number of people who have had to resort to National Assistance has dropped. The retirement pension today for the single person is worth 10s. 8d. more than it was in 1951, and 14s. 5d. more for a married couple.

asked the Paymaster-General what is the present target figure of coal output by the National Coal Board for 1965; and what he envisages will be the total national requirement of fuel of all kinds in 1965, expressed in terms of millions of tons of coal.

The National Coal Board is at present reviewing its long-term plan. As to the second part of the Question, I would refer the hon. Member to my right hon. Friend's statement on 3rd December, 1958.

Will the hon. Member indicate whether the National Coal Board intends to review its figures upwards or downwards?

It is reviewing it; and until it has reviewed it, it does not know what the review will be.

Is it not common knowledge that the National Coal Board has greatly reduced its target figure for 1965? Does not that indicate that the Government have completely abandoned their ideas of the economic expansion which they had in the days of the Lord Privy Seal when he talked about doubling the standard of living?

No, Sir.

asked the Paymaster-General if, in view of the increasing unemployment in the coalmining industry, he will give a general direction to the National Coal Board to make larger and more prolonged payments of compensation to displaced miners who are unable to find alternative employment.

No, Sir. It is for the National Coal Board and the National Union of Mineworkers to consider the terms of compensation in the first instance. Any arrangements agreed between them are subject to my noble Friend's approval.

Will the hon. Member bear in mind, when considering approval of these arrangements when they are finally discussed, that displaced miners are often geographically so circumstanced that it is very difficult for them to obtain other work and that, therefore, they require special consideration?

All those considerations will, no doubt, be very present in the minds of the N.U.M. and N.C.B.

When the hon. Member discusses this matter with the two sides of the industry, will he bear in mind something which I sought to put at the end of our debate on Friday, that when old mines are closed and new mines are to be opened in 12 months or 18 months' time, it would be in the interests of the miners and of the nation to keep the displaced miners in the industry, if necessary delaying closures to do so? Will he consider that sympathetically?

I will write to the right hon. Gentleman.

If, as the hon. Member asserts, increased redundancy payments are a matter for the National Coal Board, why does his noble Friend interfere between the Board and the National Union of Mineworkers to prevent older miners receiving an increased pension from their own pension fund?

That is not strictly relevant. Any powers and duties of my noble Friend stem from an Act which, no doubt in a moment of absence of mind, was passed by hon. Members opposite.

asked the Paymaster-General whether his attention has been drawn to the position of the coal industry in East Kent; and what action he has in mind to ensure the security of employment for East Kent miners.

The future of the coal mines in East Kent, as elsewhere, must ultimately depend upon their ability to compete with alternative sources of fuel.

Will my hon. Friend give me the assurance that the electricity generating station at Richborough, which can take coal from the pits in the East Kent coalfield, will be coal-fired and will not turn over to oil?

That does not arise out of this Question. I should have to see it on the Notice Paper.

asked the Paymaster-General what action he is taking to carry out the recommendations of the Robson Committee of Inquiry into coal distribution costs, particularly that on concentration of depots and mechanical handling.

Arrangements have been made for the railway authorities and the coal trade to examine in detail appropriate cases in the regions.

But will the right hon. Gentleman keep in mind the suggestion of the Robson Committee that the Ministry of Power should show some real initiative in this matter?

Yes, Sir. We are watching what is taking place very carefully.

asked the Paymaster-General if he will make a statement as to the terms on which interest will be charged by him on the proposed loan of £50 million to Messrs. Colvilles Limited, the Scottish steel company, and as to why he has agreed that payment of such interest may be deferred until three years after the investment becomes productive.

The rate of interest charged will fully cover the cost to Her Majesty's Government of borrowing at the relevant date for a similar period. Provision has been made for postponement of interest payments during the construction period, and optionally during the development period.

Bearing in mind that by commercial standards these terms are exceptionally generous, and that they have become necessary apparently only because Messrs. Colvilles are either unwilling or unable to raise money in the ordinary way, and also that the shareholders are the principal beneficiaries, is it not clear that the obvious solution would have been for Messrs. Colvilles to have remained nationalised?

The hon. Member has made a number of very confident assertions, but unfortunately, like so many of the assertions of hon. Members opposite, they are not accurate. If he will read the accounts of the shareholders' meeting, he will see that objection was taken the other way round, and that Colvilles could probably have got the money cheaper from the market but for the irresponsible threats of the hon. Member's hon. Friends.

Is not this company borrowing money much cheaper than it could from a bank or some other institution? Is not this cheap money being borrowed in a form which will make it a subsidy to the private investors in the company? If this company is unable to carry out a nationally advantageous expansion on ordinary private enterprise terms, does it not forfeit any justification it may ever have had to remain under private ownership?

The right hon. Gentleman got a little involved at the end of his question and, I think, asked the opposite of what he intended to ask. The fact remains that the only reason it was necessary to borrow this money from the Government instead of from the market was the threat of renationalisation. If that is causing the difficulty, the fault lies with hon. Members opposite.

asked the Paymaster-General why no announcement has yet been made with regard to the export of iron and steel scrap after 4th February; whether he will now make an announcement; and whether he is aware that the present uncertainty is making the business of merchants dealing in scrap impossible.

As announced in the Press on 2nd February, my noble Friend, in conjunction with my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, has decided to continue until 7th March, 1959, the arrangements under which the basic grades of iron and steel scrap may be exported under open general licence.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that one month is scarcely sufficient time to allow an independent merchant, particularly a small merchant, to enter into contracts and fulfil them? Will he get a final decision on this matter of open licences within the next week?

My hon. Friend has written to my noble Friend on this subject. He will receive a reply in the near future saying that we shall be very glad to discuss the matter with him and with representatives of the section of the trade in which he is interested.

asked the Paymaster-General (1) for how many coal-fired power stations he has authorised extensions at the present time or in the future;

(2) how many coal-fired power stations are to be built within the next 10 years to meet the increasing demand for electricity and replacement of obsolete power stations.

Eleven new coal-fired power stations are now being built in England and Wales and thirteen existing coal-fired stations are being extended. For the future, the Central Electricity Generating Board plans to provide by the end of 1965 14 million kilowatts of new capacity altogether, and over half of this will be coal-fired.

Is it the intention to build any more traditional power stations after 1965?

That is a separate Question, which I should like to see on the Order Paper.

asked the Paymaster-General what official organisation exists for the purpose of co-ordinating research into fuel resources, improvements in the uses of fuels, and the wider questions of fuel, power and industrial energy which cannot satisfactorily be examined by the separate research departments of the fuel and power industries.

asked the Paymaster-General what recent progress has been made to co-ordinate and develop research in the most economic utilisation of coal as a source of energy.

My noble Friend's Scientific Advisory Council is concerned with the co-ordination and development of research into the utilisation of our fuel resources. It works under an independent chairman, and its members include representatives of the fuel and power industries, the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research and independent experts from industry and the universities.

As my noble Friend announced in another place on 21st Januury, he has asked this Council to give special attention to the progress of the work which is being done by the Government, the nationalised industries and private industry on the expansion of existing uses and development of new uses of coal.

Is the Minister satisfied that these arrangements are wide enough to cover the problem we now have to face? Would he agree that one of the greatest problems at the moment is to make the fullest use of our coal resources, and that that problem will be one of the greatest for a long time to come? Would he not agree that it is not sufficient, in tackling that, to leave research in the departmentalised way in which it is left now, and that there should be more coordination and a lot more money spent on research into this important matter?

The question of money is largely a matter for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but the Scientific Advisory Council is a body of very high standing, and I can assure the hon. Member that it is at this moment taking into consideration not only research done by my Department but by the gas industry and other bodies into this matter with which, like the hon. Member, we have very great concern.

Can the hon. Gentleman state the amount which is being spent on research into this vitally important matter by the boards and by the Government?

I am afraid that I should have to have notice of that because it appears under so many different heads, but I will certainly give the right hon. Gentleman the information if he will put down a Question.

Would the hon. Gentleman consider that it is a trifling sum compared with the enormous turnover which there is in the fuel industries?

asked the Paymaster-General for what purposes it is proposed to increase expenditure on the purchase and storage of petroleum products by £6,322,800 during the current financial year.

Energy requirements are steadily increasing and in order to meet them we need growing quantities of oil which have to be imported from abroad. The oil companies have raised the level of commercial stocks and the Government propose to supplement them by adding to their existing emergency reserves.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the real purpose of this sudden, substantial purchase is to insure against another Suez adventure? Or, as his reply seems to indicate, is this just a further way of helping the oil companies in their competition with coal?

Neither.

Is not this a subsidy to the oil companies of this country? Or is this more than £6 million of expenditure to be returned to the Government in some form, with interest accruing?

It is the Government's own oil. I do not follow the right hon. Gentleman's question. The expenditure is being used for oil which does not belong to the oil companies. Once it has been bought it belongs to the Government.

Do we understand that this £6,322,800 of expenditure is in connection exclusively with oil purchased by the Government and on behalf of the Government and not to be used by the private oil companies?

It is bought by and on behalf of the Government. How it is ultimately used I do not think arises. It is oil which will remain the property of the Government.

Oh.

There is something tricky about this.

See if there is a sticky label on it.

asked the Paymaster-General what is the estimated cost of the initial import of liquid methane by the Gas Council for experimental purposes, under his auspices.

The costs of this experiment are being shared by the British gas industry and the American interests concerned. The total cost to the gas industry is estimated to be about £1½ million.

Will this lessen at all research into the use of inferior coals for high pressure gas?

Oh, no, the two things are only very indirectly connected.

In view of the extreme danger of the transport of these cargoes, has the hon. Gentleman considered that a vessel of that same size conveying oil will bring five times as much energy into the country?

All these considerations were, of course, considered very carefully. The main object of this experiment was to try out the technical possibility of it, and I should have thought that the Gas Council was to be congratulated upon its initiative along these lines.

asked the Paymaster-General whether the plant at Newman Spinney is to be abandoned; and what change has been made in policy respecting experiments in underground gasification.

Yes, Sir. The National Coal Board has decided to wind up experimental work at Newman Spinney on the ground that sufficient results have been obtained to lead it to the view that the commercial prospects of underground gasification do not justify further expenditure at the present time.

Can the Parliamentary Secretary say why it has taken his Department 10 years and the expenditure of £1¾ million before discovering that underground gasification is not a worthwhile proposition, and how does he reconcile his Answer with the statement made by his noble Friend in another place on 21st January to the effect that in two or three weeks' time we should see electricity being generated at Newman Spinney?

In the first place, of course, this is primarily a Coal Board matter. A long-term experiment of this kind must, in all the circumstances, be accepted. The Coal Board has come to the conclusion, in which my noble Friend concurs, that it is very necessary to have a priority in these cases, and this is now no longer considered sufficiently encouraging to warrant any farther expense there. There are more profitable lines of research opening out to us.

asked the Paymaster-General what progress has been made in research into the latest methods of producing gas from oil; and what is the expected annual intake for this purpose in terms of coal equivalent of surplus products from oil refineries.

Research in this field is concentrated upon hydrogenation of oil, and this offers the most promising approach to the hydrogenation of low grade coal. A commercial scale plant designed to work initially on oil and later on coal has now been commissioned by the Gas Council.

The gas industry estimates that its consumption of tail gas and other refinery surpluses may increase, in terms of coal equivalent, from the present level of about 500,000 tons to 2 million tons in 1965.

Does the reply of the Parliamentary Secretary mean that wherever there are refineries we may expect to see waste products from the refineries being pumped into the mains of the various gas boards? Does he view such a prospect with equanimity in view of the millions of tons of coal he has accumulated on the ground?

Really, the hon. Gentleman seems to have a curious idea of the economics of fuel. The refineries being there, surely it is better that the tail gas should be burned by some consumer than just go up in the air.

asked the Paymaster-General whether the discussions between the electrical industry and the Government regarding the amount of capital to be authorised for hire purchase have yet been completed; and with what results.

I cannot yet add to the statement made on 20th January by my right hon. Friend.

Can the hon. Gentleman assure us that in these discussions the various electricity boards will agree that their hire-purchase terms will be in general in line with the general commercial hire-purchase terms of traders and so on? In this connection, can he correct a misleading statement which was mentioned in a debate a short time ago, that the Yorkshire Electricity Board's hire-purchase terms were equivalent to a rate of interest of below 5 per cent.? Will he assure us, as I can assure him, that the terms are about 8 per cent.?

I am glad to have the hon. Gentleman's support for one of the principles which have been laid down in this matter, namely, that the nationalised boards should conform to commercial practice in this matter. As to the last part of the supplementary question, of course I could not be categoric until I saw the exact statement made, but from what the hon. Gentleman says I imagine that the misunderstanding, if any, is one very commonly made in this matter, between interest charged on the initial advance and the equivalent interest on the reducing balance.

asked the Paymaster-General when it is expected that the Committee appointed under the Chairmanship of Sir Cecil Weir to inquire into possible joint working between area electricity and gas boards will report.

I understand from the Chairman that the Committee hopes to complete its Report very shortly.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the Committee has been successful in obtaining a broad and varied range of evidence?

It has finished taking evidence, so I imagine that it is satisfied that it has had all the help it can obtain, including that of the hon. Gentleman.

asked the Minister of Supply if he will take steps to increase the Government funds available for the development of the Short S.C.I. vertical take-off aircraft.

Work on this research project has been proceeding satisfactorily and an increase in funds has been provided.

Whilst thanking my right hon. Friend for letting us know that an increase in funds has been provided, may I ask whether he is fully aware of the importance of research into an aircraft such as this to the whole of the British aircraft industry? Will my right hon. Friend be able to see that funds, as far as necessary, will be provided for this project which we believe has a great lead over the same type of project in other countries?

The increase of funds made available for this project itself indicates our awareness of its importance.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what is the amount of the increase in funds and how much extra the Government are putting into this project? In view of the possible disappearance of bases overseas which we have hitherto counted upon and the difficulties of over-flying from home bases to the Middle East, does not the right hon. Gentleman regard this as an extremely important business?

Yes, Sir, I regard this as an important matter, but as the right hon. Gentleman knows full well, it is not customary to give details of the amount of money devoted to particular pieces of research.

But surely, Mr. Speaker, the amount of money which we are devoting has to be voted by the House? Ought we not to be told what it is being voted for and how much it is?

Yes, Sir, the amount m the broad sense.

asked the Minister of Supply what research is being conducted into infra-red detection systems of intermediate and inter-continental missiles by his Department.

Beyond the statement that my Department is working on research into methods, including infra-red methods, of detecting ballistic missiles at long range, I regret that, on security grounds, there is nothing I can say.

Why not? Why should it not be possible to make a statement? Have we not the right to know? Is not this the possible answer to the detection of I.C.B.M.s and I.R.B.M.s and ought we not to be told how highly this ranks on the priority list of the Ministry's research projects?

The hon. Member, and all hon. Members, have a right to know a great many things, but, on the other hand, one has to balance that against the desirability of not allowing the enemy to know certain things. [HON. MEMBERS: "What enemy?"] A potential enemy, any enemy. For instance, if I were to give the hon. Member a full answer to this Question, I should be informing an enemy how to develop ballistic missiles so as to defeat any future defence measure.

Since the right hon. Gentleman has joined other Ministers in great secrecy in the House, had we not better ask Mr. Chapman Pincher if he can get the information from his sources and publish it in the Express?

If the right hon. Gentleman thinks that Mr. Chapman Pincher's sources of information are reliable, by all means let him ask Mr. Pincher.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the House has been told that the cost of the V-bomber is about £700,000? If we have been told the cost of the bomber, why cannot we be told the cost of these ballistic missiles?

The question has nothing to do with the cost of a ballistic missile.

Can the Minister say whether this will prove a fruitful line of research and will be worth while?

Answer.

In view of the very unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I will raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible opportunity.

asked the Minister of Supply how many unused factories, fully equipped with machinery and kept on a care and maintenance basis, are in areas where unemployment exists; and what consideration has been given to using these buildings and machines for useful productive work.

There are two such factories in areas listed as unemployment areas by the Board of Trade, one at Girvan and one at Garnock. The plant in both is highly specialised. It is not suitable and could not easily be adapted for any other purpose.

In no circumstances whatsoever? Is it beyond the Minister's wit, or the advice and experience of his Department, to ensure that these production lines and the machinery in the factories are so adapted or converted as to produce engineering products for peaceful use?

As I have indicated, conversion is very difficult, and, what is more, would defeat one of the objects of these factories, which is to bring in a specialised kind of production at short notice in the event of emergency.

Are there any of these unused Government factories, in areas other than those designated as areas of unemployment, set aside for use for emergency purposes?

Yes, Sir. I indicated that in an Answer last week.

asked the Minister of Supply whether he is aware that the mobility of British armed forces is seriously prejudiced by the lack of long range strategic air freighters; and whether he will now make a statement on service requirements for such British aircraft as the Blackburn B.107, the Bristol Britannic, the Handley Page HP111 and the Vickers VC10.

I have nothing to add to the Answer given by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Air in the House on 28th January.

Surely this is becoming a scandal. Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the Services and industry must know where they are going from here? Since no question of security can possibly be involved in this, will he not do something in co-operation with his colleagues?

Three or four Questions on this subject are on the Order Paper for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence on Wednesday, and I think that it would be most unwise of me to anticipate the Answer which my right hon. Friend may give then.

Can we be assured that, when it finally makes up its mind on the best air carrier to meet what the Services require, the Ministry will not allow itself to be overcome by the blandishments of pressure groups but will decide solely on the merits of the machine?

Yes, Sir, without any question, but also taking into account the fact that we ought to have regard not only to paper drawings but to those things behind the paper drawings, for example, the ability to produce.

Provided that the technical details are satisfactory, will my right hon. Friend give orders where they are most needed in the country, that is, in order to employ people? Secondly, will he assure the House that on no account will United States aircraft be ordered for this purpose?

As to the latter part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question, I have already indicated that it has been decided not to buy American aircraft. As to the first part, I would agree that unemployment is one among the many considerations which clearly must be taken into account.

Would the right hon. Gentleman not agree that the very long delay in making a decision on this matter has inevitably now made the arrival of this much-needed aircraft very much later than it ought to be in the light of our defensive needs? Is it a refusal on his part and that of his colleagues to be coordinated, or failure on the part of the Ministry of Defence to co-ordinate them, that has caused the delay?

The right hon. Gentleman would be wise to address his question to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence on Wednesday.

asked the Minister of Health what increase he will sanction in the next financial year and at what cost, in hospital building and repair, in particular parts of Wales where unemployment is above the average level for the United Kingdom as a whole; and if he will make a statement.

It is proposed that £1,947,000 should be spent on capital development of hospitals in Wales in 1959–60 compared with £1,593,000 in 1958–59. In allocating this money, the Welsh Regional Hospital Board must have first regard to hospital needs but of the amount to be made available for 1959–60, £811,000 is for the development of hospitals in areas where the level of unemployment is above the national average. This compares with a figure of £638,000 in 1958–59.

asked the Minister of Health if he will make a statement on the Worthing experiment of treating mentally-ill people by out-patient methods.

This experiment provides valuable experience of one method of organising out-patient treatment for mental patients. There are other methods in use in other places, and all will be helpful in the future planning and development of menial health services.

Is that all the Minister has to say on this very important experiment? Is he not aware that, in consequence of this experiment, the number of cases admitted to the parent hospital, which was 654 in 1956, was reduced last year to 247? In view of the fact that 40 per cent. of beds in the country are being used at present for mental oases, does the right hon. and learned Gentleman not think that he might give some further consideration to this matter?

I am very familiar with what is going on at Worthing, as is everybody who is interested in this matter, but the hon. Member must not give the impression that very good work is not being done in other centres—work which I mentioned on Second Reading of the Mental Health Bill.

Is the Minister aware that, whilst we all recognise that the work at Worthing is admirable, there are other places doing similar work which is equally deserving of this commendation?

The right hon. Lady is quite correct. I referred by name to some of them on Second Reading of the Mental Health Bill, and it would be well if they had their share of the commendation due.

asked the Minister of Health (1) what reply he has made to the letter of 10th November, 1958, from the Finsbury Borough Council, regarding the future of the Royal Free Hospital and Medical School in Gray's Inn Road;

(2) what proposals he has under consideration regarding the future development of the Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Hospital and the London Fever Hospital.

The council's letter was an expression of views which did not call for any immediate reply. I have noted those views. The ultimate future of all these hospitals arises in connection with the proposal to rebuild the Royal Free Hospital and Medical School in Hampstead and the consequential long-term hospital needs of central London, but no early action is being considered in relation to the existing hospitals.

Is the Minister aware that this is a matter of great concern to my constituents, many of whom use this hospital very frequently? In view of the fact that the council has already made representations to the Minister and that the local medical practitioners have expressed their view in connection with the Royal Free Hospital, would he agree to receive a deputation from both the council and the local medical practitioners?

I am, of course, familiar with the views expressed by the London Local Medical Committee and by the Finsbury Borough Council, and I shall have their views in mind. The hon. Gentleman must appreciate that these are long-term proposals, depending on the time taken for the rebuilding of the Royal Free Hospital, and that no question of closure or anything of that kind arises at the present time.

Will the Minister give an assurance that in any further discussions about this development the regional hospital board will be kept fully in consultation?

Of course, they will be kept in consultation, but all this will take some years to bring to fruition.

As I am profoundly dissatisfied with the Minister's answer, I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Health if he will have an inquiry made into the employment, welfare, and medical problems affecting those on hospital waiting lists in the Newcastle region.

The hospital boards concerned review the waiting lists regularly and take action to reduce them. My right hon. and learned Friend is not satisfied that a special inquiry would be of any practical benefit.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that there are very severe problems, including the question of employment and welfare, affecting those on waiting lists, and that it is the opinion of many regional hospital boards and others that it will be extremely valuable to have a full inquiry into the actual conditions under which people are waiting to help in a decision on further provision of hospital accommodation?

I see the hon. Gentleman's point, but an inquiry would produce little that is new. It might show the proportion of people on waiting lists who have employment, welfare and medical problems, but it could hardly affect the known need to reduce waiting lists.

Will the hon. Gentleman say what action he is taking to ensure that these waiting lists are cut down.

The regional hospital board and the board of governors are already doing all that they can within their resources to expand facilities and reduce waiting time. The answer which I gave to the hon. Member for Durham (Mr. Grey) on 26th January shows that £81 million has been spent on capital development, and the regional board's number of consultants has trebled since 1948.

May I ask my hon. Friend, as I have a Question on the Order Paper, if he can say whether conversations have taken place between the regional hospital board and himself on this question? Is he aware that, in spite of the answer which he has given to the hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, East (Mr. Blenkinsop), the regional hospital board is not satisfied, and if it is not satisfied Members representing North Country constituencies want to know what the Minister intends to do about it?

In general, I would say to my hon. Friend that the Newcastle waiting lists, which are, I think, what the hon. Lady is mainly concerned with, are very similar to those elsewhere on a per thousand of the population basis, and the regional hospital board and the board of governors are particularly conscientious in reviewing this problem at regular, short intervals and doing all they can to deal with special local difficulties. The lists have been substantially reduced since 1953, although there was a slight upturn in 1956–57.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter as soon as possible on the Adjournment.

With me as well.

asked the Minister of Health whether he will now reconsider his refusal to make additional funds available to hospital authorities for the purpose of implementing the recommendations of the Nurses and Midwives Whitley Council, regarding the reduction in hours of duty of hospital nursing and midwifery staff.

This is a matter which is being taken into account in considering what funds can be allocated to hospital authorities for revenue purposes for the coming financial year.

Can the Minister say when he will be in a position to give the House the results of his study of the progress reports for which we asked by 30th November last, and will he tell the House in what percentage of hospitals the 44-hour week is now working and for what percentage of their staff?

I cannot give the hon. Lady the percentage figures at the moment, but the reports from the boards, which I have studied, show that a considerable measure of success has been achieved in the effort to make the greatest possible reduction in hours within the existing resources. I am considering, as I said, whether it is possible to make available any further funds.

Would the Minister say what he has done to implement the provisions of one of his recent circulars on this subject in which it is recommended that auxiliary workers should be provided because that would facilitate a reduction in the working hours of midwives?

This matter is in the minds of the regional hospital boards. If there is any precise aspect of the matter on which the right hon. Lady would like information, perhaps she would put down a Question or let me know.

Is the Minister aware that a decision on this is needed very urgently? Some hospitals are unable to reduce working hours, particularly where they are already short of existing nursing staff, and because of that they cannot attract more nurses because the hours worked are more than those in other hospitals? That type of hospital is now in an impossible situation, and we need a decision very quickly on the matter. When are we going to get it?

I follow the hon. Gentleman's point, but I have already said in answer to the hon. Lady's Question that I am taking this into account in considering what funds should be allocated for the coming year.

asked the Minister of Health what steps he is taking to remedy the injustice whereby mental nurses are compelled to work the first four hours of overtime without pay.

Any revision of the existing rule regarding additional payment would be a matter for the Whitley Council to consider in the first instance.

Is not the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that mental nurses feel very strongly that they are not getting their views adequately represented on the Whitley Council? Is he also aware of the fact that the grave shortage of mental nurses is only made worse by the continuance of injustices like this which tend to make the profession increasingly relatively unattractive at a time when we are most in need of mental nurses, and is it not absurd to have mental hospital reforms without proper conditions far mental nurses?

The composition of the Whitley Council is not, of course, a matter for me, as the hon. Lady must know. As to the comparative position of mental and general nurses, it is only mental nurses who receive any payment for overtime. General nurses do not receive payment for overtime.

In view of the gross overcrowding of our mental hospitals and the shortage of mental nurses, would not the Minister say that if he made here a sympathetic comment on the situation, the Whitley Council would make a note of it?

We are already making progress in the reduction of hours and the consequent extension of leisure time, which is one of the main objects of this reduction. As regards the Whitley Council, the right hon. Lady knows the procedure very well and I would get into trouble if I trod on the toes of the Whitley Council.

asked the Minister of Health when the motor tricycle, which he has agreed is necessary, will be supplied to Mr. E. D. Miles, 12, Colehill Lane, S.W.6.

It was delivered last week.

Whilst thanking the right hon. and learned Gentleman for that reply, may I ask whether he will consider why it was that Mr. Miles's first application was refused, when it is clear that it ought not to have been refused?

We refuse applications only on the medical advice that we receive. It is the case that Mr. Miles's original application was turned down in 1957, but a medical re-examination last November showed that his condition had deteriorated and that he then qualified for the machine.

asked the Minister of Health whether he will ask local health authorities, hospital boards, and health executive councils to prepare plans for the development of services for the care and treatment of old people, taking into account the experience of work done in Oxford, Sunderland, and elsewhere.

I am satisfied that local authorities and hospital boards are fully alive to the need for continuing to develop these services, in collaboration with executive councils and local medical committees, on lines which the experience gained in the past 10 years has shown to be sound.

Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman realise that certainly in the north-east of England and in the Newcastle area there is urgent need for the development of further services, and is it not now desirable for an actual lead to be given by the Ministry to encourage further work throughout the country on those lines?

I gave a lead in October, 1957, by the issue of circulars at that time to the local authorities and to the hospital authorities. It is, of course, open to all authorities in the application of the principles there recommended to have in mind the particular procedures carried on in Oxford and Sunderland.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman prepared to consider some special funds being made available for the further development of the experimental work that has been started?

I have not been asked by these authorities for a special allocation for that, but I will bear in mind what the hon. Gentleman has said.