asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how the number of staff employed in his Department now compares with the numbers employed by the Ministries of Agriculture and Fisheries and Food in 1951.

There were 15,384 staff in my Ministry on 1st January, 1959, compared with 42,427 in the two Ministries on 1st January, 1951.

Is not this reduction of 27,000 in the Ministry staff a remarkable testimony to the efficiency and economy of the present Government in carrying on their agricultural policy? Will my hon. Friend make sure that his Department does not weary of well-doing?

I would not dissent from the first part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question, and I can assure him that we shall be diligent in trying to earn his further praise in due course.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what immediate plans he has for the more effective eradication of the warble fly which harasses cattle in the summer months and causes serious losses in the leather industry; whether his attention has been called to the claims made for a chemical spray to prevent warble fly attack; and what other lines of investigation are being pursued.

An extensive publicity campaign will again be undertaken to draw the attention of stock owners to the importance of carrying out derris dressings to control warble fly infestation of cattle. Field trials of systemic drugs to destroy the warble fly larvae in cattle are in progress. I have seen an advertisement of a spray claimed to serve the purpose mentioned in the second part of my hon. Friend's Question, but I have no further information about this spray.

Are we getting anywhere in our programme of trying to eradicate the warble fly? We go on year after year with the same kind of programme. Can my hon. Friend tell us when, as with bovine tuberculosis, he hopes to bring an end to this pest?

I can understand my hon. Friend's concern about this most important matter. I can assure him that the work on systemic drugs is important. I have seen some of it myself, and I have hopes that we may find a solution.

In view of the evil of this pest, will not the hon. Gentleman try some other method besides those that he has used in the past, and try to ensure that farmers use the preventatives which are available to them?

Certainly. If any new preparation is put forward to the Veterinary Therapeutic Testing Board, it will be very glad to consider any suggestions which are made to them.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will introduce legislation for the purpose of standardising the temperature of chilled egg.

No satisfactory amendment of existing legislation regarding chilled eggs has so far been found. While my right hon. Friend is arranging for the matter to be further studied, I can hold out little hope of early legislation.

Is my hon. Friend aware that until a standard for chilled eggs has been definitely established cooled eggs are taken as chilled eggs, thus lowering their price? Does he agree that it is really urgent to press on and establish such a standard?

I think that this is an important point, and I should like to find a solution. It is very difficult to find an effective definition which would not vitiate the safeguards which, I am sure, my hon. Friend will agree are equally necessary for the consumer against stale eggs being put forward as fresh.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how many farmers in each of the Welsh counties up to the latest convenient date have submitted applications under the Agriculture (Small Farmers) Act; and what additional organisation he has set up to deal with these applications.

To 13th March, 3,601 applications had been received from farmers in Wales and Monmouthshire. With permission, I will circulate the individual county figures in the OFFICIAL REPORT. My Ministry's staff has been re-organised and strengthened, where necessary, to deal with these applications.

I thank my hon. Friend for that Answer, but can he say how the number of applications from Wales compares with the number made elsewhere; secondly, can he give an assurance that there will be no undue delay in considering them?

The applications from Wales have come in extremely well, probably in greater numbers than from any other part of the United Kingdom. We shall certainly see that no avoidable delay occurs, but this is a complicated matter and it is bound to take a little time for applications to be dealt with.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what steps he is taking to ensure that adequate steps will be taken to train an increased number of skilled workers for the agricultural industry in the years 1961–65, when 35 per cent. more 15-yearold children are expected to leave the schools than in previous years.

The industry's own apprenticeship scheme, which has my right hon. Friend's full support, is designed to meet the need for providing young workers with systematic training. This, however, is linked with the wider question of further education in agriculture which was recently reviewed by the De La Warr Committee, the recommendations of which are now being considered.

Will the Minister agree that the occasion of the "bulge" is one which should be seized, and is it not far better to have rather more skilled workers than are needed than too few?

I entirely agree that we need as many skilled workers as we can have. I hope that anyone who can will urge members of the industry to support the apprenticeship scheme as much as they can. That is a very valuable way in which to help.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what is the present rate of interest charged under Section 54 of the Agriculture Act, 1947, which deals with loans for working capital; what is the latest figure of applications; and how this compares with those for the years 1955, 1956, 1957 and 1958.

The answer to the first part of the Question is 6¼ per cent. The answer to the second part contains a number of figures which I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Is the Minister not aware that many smallholders, such as those in my constituency, have found things most difficult during the last two or three years because of the high interest rates charged? Does he not think it is time we had another review of these interest rates now being imposed in view of what people want to do on their smallholdings? In view of the rates which have operated during the last three years, since 1957, which have appeared in the Smallholdings Report for 1957–58—from 6 per cent. to 6½, from 6½ to 7 and 7¼, from 7¼ down to 7 per cent., and then, on the hon. Gentleman's own figures, now down to 6 per cent.—does he not think that something more ought to be done to ease the burden?

I agree that the rates have been high, although, as I have indicated, they have fallen somewhat to 6¼ per cent., not 6 per cent. They have been as high as 7 or 7¼, which I realise has inhibited people, but I hope that the downward tendency which has begun will give some help. I fully take the hon. Gentleman's point about the need to keep these rates as low as possible.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that the most effective way to help farmers, small farmers particularly, is to arrange for them to have cheap money, which, as a method, is preferable to having a lot of subsidies?

I think that it is necessary for credit to be at commercial rates. I think that it is far better for the farming community to receive support through the system we have of deficiency payments and other means and that they should have the same form of credit rates as are available to industry generally.

Will the Minister agree that what happens here by deficiency of payments is that money is taken out of the taxpayer's pocket and paid to the farmer in order that he can give it to the moneylender?

It could be argued the other way round, too. What we want is to see that farmers are in a position to pay a fair commercial rate. Why a fair commercial rate is always spoken of as a rate for the moneylender, I cannot really understand; I think that it is always effective whatever Government may be in power.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what restrictions are still in force on local authorities regarding the acquisition of land for the creation of new holdings; and how such restrictions of expenditure affected County Durham.

Smallholdings authorities require my right hon. Friend's approval under Section 48 of the Agriculture Act, 1947, to acquire land for smallholdings, and the approval of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government, under Sections 166 and 195 of the Local Government Act, 1933, to use capital moneys or raise loans for the purpose. The Government's present policy is to encourage smallholdings authorities to concentrate on improving existing properties rather than acquiring new ones; but County Durham has submitted two proposals for acquisition in the last three years, and both were approved.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what decision has been reached in respect of the future of the £300,000 worth of Polish potatoes, the import of which was contemplated, but which are suspected of being affected with ring rot.

My right hon. Friend is still considering this matter. I have nothing to add at present to the reply I gave to the hon. Member on 9th March.

Can the Minister deny that our officials have inspected these potatoes and have reported that they are diseased? In view of the fact that last year we had to refuse to allow Polish potatoes to come into this country because of disease, how is it that there has been in the trade agreement this £300,000 worth of potatoes. and can we be assured that if they are diseased they will not be allowed in at all?

On the last part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, I can assure him that if they are diseased and likely to affect our stocks they will not be allowed in. I can give that assurance at once. I should explain that in a trade agreement quantities are often included which, of course, must be subject to plant health arrangements There is no form of undertaking which has been given here, and I assure the hon. Gentleman that this point was fully realised by the Polish Government when the agreement was concluded; there is no question of bad faith here. They understand the position entirely and the health position will be fully safeguarded.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what has been the total tonnage of potatoes imported since 1st January, 1959, from Egypt found to be affected with brown rot and ring rot; and, in view of the dangers involved in this connection, what action has been and is to be taken concerning the disposal of these affected potatoes.

Brown rot but not ring rot has been found in one cargo of about 800 tons of Egyptian potatoes recently landed at Liverpool. My right hon. Friend has taken action to prevent these going through normal retail channels. There should, therefore, be no risk of disease being spread to our own crops from these consignments.

In addition, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, who is responsible for plant health regulations in Scotland, tells me that two cargoes totalling about 812 tons of Egyptian potatoes which recently arrived at Glasgow and Leith were found to be infected with bacterial rot, but not with ring rot.

Is not brown rot banned so far as this country is concerned? The hon. Gentleman says that the potatoes are not going through the ordinary channels, but is it not a fact that these diseased potatoes have gone for potato crisps and that some of them have gone to fish and chip shops? Cannot we do better than that?

As regards the potatoes at Liverpool, I have no information that any have gone to fish and chip shops. Some may have gone to the crisp factories, but, in those circumstances, it would be done under strict restrictions through my health inspectors, who insist that the peel is dealt with and the bags are destroyed so that there can be no question of any infection.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the percentages of uninspected meat for human consumption coming out of slaughterhouses inside and outside county boroughs, respectively, at the latest convenient date.

Latest returns available from local authorities indicate that about 98 per cent. of meat was inspected in county boroughs and about 90 per cent. elsewhere.

Whilst welcoming the improvement which has taken place in the last 12 months, may I ask whether the hon. Gentleman can give any indication when the remaining 10 per cent. outside county boroughs is likely to be dealt with?

We are making good progress and, with the continuation of sound Conservative Government, we might reach it at any time.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will now make a statement on the arrange- ments under which Irish cattle will he allowed to enter Great Britain when tuberculosis has been eradicated from cattle herds in this country.

Yes, Sir. The Government have informed the Government of the Irish Republic that for five years after the date on which Great Britain is declared free of bovine tuberculosis we shall be prepared to allow the continued importation of once-tested cattle into Great Britain subject to the same safeguards as apply at present. The arrangements will be subject to annual review. Their purpose is to enable our requirements to be fully met by attested cattle at the end of the five-year period. I am circulating a fuller statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Does my hon. Friend's Department recognise that there is a disease risk in this proposed arrangement, necessary as it might be, and that as we become less and less affected by bovine tuberculosis our cattle will have less resistance to the infection? What proportion of Irish cattle now coming in under the single test arrangement have proved to have bovine tuberculosis?

We realise that there is an element of risk, but provided that the isolation period of 60 days is strictly observed we think there is little danger of reinfection to our own herd. Certainly, that has been our experience in our existing attested areas. Concerning the percentage rate of reactors coming in from the Republic of Ireland, the last official figure I had was 2½ per cent., but I understand that since then it has come down to between 1½ and 2 per cent.

Do the Irish authorities accept the five-year period as reasonable? I know that there are difficulties, but would it have been possible to have screwed it down a little bit lower than the five years? As the hon. Gentleman has said, there is a considerable risk.

We considered this most carefully. Until recently, progress in Ireland has not been nearly as fast as we would have wished, but recently the Irish have made great strides. It would be unrealistic for us to hope for completion in less than five years, but we are determined to maintain that figure and we have set it as a target, which I very much hope the Irish will be able to attain.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what provision is made for giving assistance to those who are destitute and homeless and who cannot give an address.

Anyone who is destitute can get National Assistance whether he can give an address or not. The assistance may not always be in money; if he has no home to go to, it may take the form of a voucher for food and accommodation at a hostel or lodging house or of admission to a reception centre.

Is the Minister aware that there are cases in which keepers of lodging houses are not prepared to take vouchers? Will he consider instances of this kind?

If the hon. Member has any particular case in mind and will send it to me, or to the chairman of the Board, I will gladly look into it.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what was the percentage of the married pensioners' 42s. in October, 1946, compared with the prevailing average earnings of men in October, 1946; what was the 42s. pension expressed as a percentage of women's earnings in the same year; and what would be the married couple's pension if it were raised to the same percentage rate of the men's earnings in October, 1958 or to the same percentage of women's earnings in October, 1958.

In October, 1946, the sum of 42s. amounted to 34·8 per cent. of the average earnings of men included in the Ministry of Labour's half-yearly inquiry; and this percentage of the corresponding average in October, 1958, was 89s. 4d. The corresponding figures for women were 64·4 per cent. and 86s. 2d.

Apparently, it is admitted that the industrial relationship is much lower now than it was in 1946. Can the right hon. Gentleman explain why we cannot bring the pensions up to the same industrial relationship as in 1946? Could he not go a little further and say how much it would cost to bring them up a little higher to improve the position beyond the 1946 level?

The reason for which the hon. Member asks is that the percentage was allowed to drop between 1946 and 1951. If one takes the 1951 date, the percentage today is better than it was at that date.

I am not taking 1951 but 1946.

The hon. Member asked for the reason. Although he may not like it, he has got it.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether he now has any proposals to help elderly war widows.

Yes, Sir. We have been giving a good deal of thought to the problems of the large number of elderly war widows, mainly, of course, 1914–18 War widows. The representations which we have received from the voluntary bodies concerned, and the reports of our own welfare officers, confirm that the most difficult problems affecting war widows are in large measure confined to the most elderly. It has, therefore, been decided to introduce a new allowance at the rate of 10s. a week for all war widows of 70 and over. This will take effect from the first pay day in June. The cost will be about £1½ million in a full year.

The Service organisations as well as the older widows will much appreciate this very good news. How many of the war widows will be affected?

About 58,000.

How many widows will be excluded from the proposal which the right hon. Gentleman has just enumerated, and why has he accepted the age of 70 as the correct age for the proposals which he is now introducing? Secondly, are widows receiving Industrial Injuries pensions included in this proposal?

The answer to the last part of the hon. Member's supplementary question is that this proposal is confined to war widows. The choice of the age of 70 results from a careful study of the problem, which, as I said in my main Answer, makes it abundantly clear that the main difficulties persisting in connection with war widows since the main rates of benefit were raised last year are confined largely to this substantial group over 70 years of age. As regards any figures which the hon. Member may have in mind, for safety's sake I had better ask him to put them down.

Has it not always been the practice that the Industrial Injuries benefits should keep in step with those under the war pensions scheme? What is the reason for this differentiation now? Is not the position of widows over the age of 70 equally difficult whether they draw an Industrial Injuries pension or even a simple, straightforward National Insurance pension? What steps is the right hon. Gentleman taking to protect these elderly widows from the effects of the Government's Rent Act.

The answer to the first part of that question is that it has not been the case, particularly with reference to allowances, that the two schemes have remained in parallel. On the contrary, the right hon. Gentleman may recall that some little time ago we introduced an age allowance for disabled war pensioners which did not have corresponding provisions in the Industrial Injuries scheme. Indeed, there are other examples which, on reflection, the right hon. Gentleman will no doubt recall. Therefore, the fact that this proposal is made in the war pensions sphere only does not violate any previously laid down principle.

Will the Minister answer the latter part of my question: what of the 52,000 widows drawing National Insurance pensions who have been forced to resort to National Assistance largely because they cannot afford to meet the present rents?

This is a statement dealing with war pensions and involving an amendment of the war pensions instruments. The right hon. Gentleman does not lack opportunities to discuss National Insurance problems.

asked the Paymaster-General if he will give a general direction to the National Coal Board that any reduction in its non-industrial staff shall not be applied in the same proportion to research staffs, without his specific approval.

No, Sir. The Board has no intention of reducing the research effort which is of great importance, but it is for the Board to decide what staff is required to carry it out.

Is my hon. Friend aware that there is a certain amount of anxiety on this subject? Does he not agree that his noble Friend the Minister of Power has a rather special responsibility for research? Does my hon. Friend agree that this is not the time to cut down on research in the coal industry, whether from the point of view of coal getting or of coal utilisation?

I quite agree with my hon. and gallant Friend, who will be pleased to know that expenditure this year is not likely to differ materially from expenditure last year. My hon. and gallant Friend will, I am sure, agree that we should all be searching always for economies. This is a small instalment.

asked the Paymaster-General what will be the estimated compensation payable this year to the former owners of coal mines scheduled for closure in 1959; and whether he will take steps to ensure that such payments shall cease immediately such closures take place.

The answer to the first part of the Question is "None, Sir". The second part of the Question does not therefore arise.

Can the hon. Gentleman tell us how much has been paid in the past? Whatever the figure, it was too much.

That is very possible, because the figure was settled by a Socialist Government, but I do not think that that arises out of this Question.

asked the Paymaster-General what plans he has made to arrest the declining demand for coal during 1959.

The Government have already announced a number of measures to increase industrial activity and these should result in increasing demands for coal.

Can the hon. Gentleman be a little more specific? Do we gather from what he has said that the Government intend to give no priority to the use of coal but intend to encourage the use of other forms of energy?

I do not think that I can embark on a statement of general fuel policy in an answer to a supplementary question.

asked the Paymaster-General what estimate he has made of the manpower requirements of the coal industry for the remaining period of 1959.

The National Coal Board endeavours to keep manpower in balance with coal requirements, but it is impossible at this date to give a firm estimate.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary making the confession that there is no budget for manpower for the year? Is he aware of the uneasiness in the coalfields? Can he tell the House how many miners will lose their jobs during 1959?

If the hon. Member tables a Question on that point I might be able to attempt to guess, but both sides of the House are always at variance on the question of how we can usefully endeavour to decide months or even years ahead exactly what will happen. The National Coal Board has its own ideas and is doing its best to avoid unemployment in the coalfields, and the Government are backing it up, but it is impossible to give an exact figure.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that until his Government came to power manpower budgets were always made for the coal industry?

That is one of the reasons why we do not go on doing it.

Is my hon. Friend aware that this month's manpower figure of 681,000 in the coalfields is 69,000 higher than the estimate made by the National Coal Board in its "Plan for Coal" in 1950 of the manpower applicable today?

Broadly speaking, my hon. Friend is right; but, what is more important, there are fewer men mining more coal.

asked the Paymaster-General if he will make a statement on the present level of undistributed coal stocks.

Undistributed stocks of coal at 7th March were just under 20 million tons.

Can the Parliamentary Secretary explain why, in view of the present great surplus of coal, the Government appear to take a rather distant, indifferent attitude in marked contrast to their attitude on home-produced food?

I do not know what the hon. Gentleman means by a distant attitude. It seems to me that the Government have taken a very sensible view, namely, that provided the coal industry is adjusting itself to changed conditions it is reasonable that the Government, who are its bankers, should finance these stocks rather than put a lot more miners out of work.

asked the Paymaster-General if he will make a statement on the prospects for the export trade in coal.

Until economic activity in Western Europe revives, the prospects are not very favourable. But the National Coal Board and the coal exporters have the full co-operation of Her Majesty's Government in its efforts to expand this trade.

Can the Parliamentary Secretary say whether the Government have considered the possibility of special reciprocal trading arrangements, involving British coal, with selected countries?

That would be a matter for my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade.

Is my hon. Friend aware of the view which has been put forward that markets for high quality anthracite coal would still be available if it were in good quantity? Does he know whether the National Coal Board has considered this aspect?

Indeed, but, as my hon. Friend knows, the anthracite supply position is one of the sections of the coal industry where supplies for the home market are still very tight.

In that case, can my hon. Friend say whether the National Coal Board is reconsidering the plan which it announced for certain anthracite mines in South Wales?

No, because, though supplies are tight, there is a limit to which the Coal Board, which is already making heavy losses, can continue to get coal and sell it at such a heavy loss, as is the case in this small part of the anthracite supply of this country.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, while the supply of anthracite is tight, this is a section of the coal industry in which many men are unemployed for whom there is no other work and we shall, therefore, lose them? Will the hon. Gentleman, therefore, take steps to ensure that the two new pits which are being sunk are pressed forward as quickly as possible, otherwise the supply of anthracite will become even more tight, because when the mines become available experienced anthracite miners—and I speak as one of them—will not be available to work in the pits.

Broadly speaking, the Government are in agreement with the right hon. Gentleman, but the general policy is to close uneconomic pits and press forward with economic ones.

asked the Paymaster-General if the Government will open discussions with the European Coal and Steel Community and the appropriate American authorities on the present coal situation in Western Europe.

Through the Council of Association with the High Authority we are in consultation on the present situation in Western Europe and their relations with other countries.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether it can be brought home to the American Government that a relatively trifling trading adjustment on their part would make a tremendous difference to the present coal recession in Western Europe?

The position is that we have, as it were, no locus in trade relations between America and countries in Western Europe which are importing under ordinary commercial contracts. We have no right to interfere in the matter, but we have made and are making our views very clearly known to the High Authority, which is the body set up for co-ordinating the coal policies, including import policies, of much of Western Europe.

The Parliamentary Secretary will surely agree that the American Government would have some influence on American traders in the matter of contracts.

The question is whether we should have any influence with the American Government—whether it is not better to do it, as we are doing it, through the High Authority.

asked the Paymaster-General if he has yet given any general direction to indicate which area gas boards will pioneer the use of liquid methane.

No, Sir.

That is a very brief answer. Must it be assumed that the area boards which will pioneer the use of methane will be those nearest to the port facilities, and, if so, is any arrangement contemplated whereby the inland area boards will be able to share the reduction in the price of gas which will be available?

As the hon. Gentleman probably knows, the present work is being done by the North Thames Gas Board. Several more trips of this very interesting ship will be required before we can get down to an economic calculation. I am not making a promise, but perhaps in a few months' time we shall be in a position to say more on the matter. At the moment, however, the ship has been here only once. We are examining the figures, but it is impossible to be very explicit.

asked the Paymaster-General what general directions he has given with a view to bringing closer liaison between the National Coal Board, the Central Electricity Authority and the Gas Council.

None, Sir.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that his Answers are very evasive? Leaders in the National Coal Board and the electricity and gas industries are far from satisfied with the present position. Does not the hon. Gentleman realise that more should be done to give a definite lead, particularly to the National Coal Board?

I do not know how far the hon. Gentleman is authorised by the National Coal Board to make that statement. I can only say that relations between the Coal Board and the Ministry since I have been at the Ministry have certainly not deteriorated and are very close indeed.

asked the Minister of Supply what progress has been made in disposing of the 1,250,000 pairs of surplus boots from the War Department.

asked the Minister of Supply whether he has yet made any progress in the sales abroad of the 1,250,000 spare pairs of Army boots.

Forms of tender for approximately 650,000 pairs are now being issued for return on 20th April.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that many people are deeply disturbed by the tremendous waste of public money, of which this is a glaring example? Can he state when information will be available so that we may know how much public money is being lost in this instance without anyone getting into trouble?

My right hon. Friend is not responsible for the surpluses thrown up by the Service Departments. In answer to the latter part of the supplementary question, these boots were ordered a very long time ago and have been held in stock for a great length of time. It is almost impossible now to say who ordered them, or indeed, I should imagine, what was paid for them.

Can the hon. Gentleman say how much longer the Ministry will carry the rest of this surplus stock? There has obviously been a blunder in the purchase and a lack of initiative in getting rid of these boots, the Ministry having held them for over 12 months. If the Ministry cannot sell boots, how will it be able to sell redundant War Office mansions which are suffering from dry rot?

The full quantity has not been declared to the Ministry of Supply by the Service Department concerned. Our first aim is to clear the depots as they become due for clearance.

asked the Minister of Supply what steps he is taking to further the development of the system of fog dispersal, originally developed on his behalf at the Battersea College of Technology.

None, Sir. The method of fog dispersal investigated at Battersea College did not prove sufficiently promising to justify further development.

I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman would ask his right hon. Friend to consult the Secretary of State for Air, who last week, in reply to a Question dealing with a very similar method of fog dispersal, said that it was a very promising idea. Why is it that there appears to be no co-ordination between the two Departments in this very important matter?

It is not a question of co-ordination between two Departments but merely a question of difference of opinion between the scientists involved. The work at Battersea was based on the idea that fog might be dispersed by accelerating the rate of coalescence and precipitation of the minute drops by spraying the surface with an active agent and using an aeroplane for that purpose. If the hon. Member has anything to contribute which will help my Department in solving this difficult problem, I shall be very glad to hear it.

More fog.

asked the Minister of Supply if he is now in a position to make a further statement about the disposal of the Royal Ordnance factory at Swynnerton.

No, Sir. Proposals for the future use of the site are still being considered by the county council.

Is anybody in the hon. Gentleman's Department taking any action in the matter? Is he aware that his Department has been responsible for throwing hundreds of workers out of work without providing any alternative employment and that he has, therefore, a responsibility for the high level of unemployment in the area and that it is time that somebody in his Department got on with this job?

I do not accept what the hon. Member says about my Department throwing people out of work. I understand that most people employed in this factory have now obtained alternative employment. This is a difficult matter. There is an area of two square miles involved here and responsibility for development of the site devolves upon the planning authority which, in this case, is Stafford County Council. I can assure the hon. Member that my Department is doing everything it possibly can to come to a satisfactory solution of the matter.

Is the hon. Gentleman saying that these matters are left to the county council? Surely the use of this factory was considered with other Departments before the decision was taken?

That is true. We are in constant consultation with the Board of Trade on this matter.

asked the Minister of Supply how many aircraft are now being held by his Department; to what extent they are being fully utilised; and how far he visualises a rundown in the number held during the current year.

There are 411 aircraft held by the Ministry of Supply excluding those awaiting disposal. These aircraft are fully utilised although there are inevitably occasional gaps between the use of an aircraft for one task and another. I do not foresee any significant rundown during the current year.

Can the hon. Gentleman say how many of these aircraft are in storage and are not being used at all; secondly, what methods are adopted by his Department suitably to dispose of redundant aircraft with the smallest loss of public money?

I do not believe any aircraft are held in storage. There is, as I have said in the Answer I have just given, a slight delay between the use of aircraft for one task and another. In the last two years there has been a reduction in the holding of more than 150 aircraft of all types. These aircraft are used for research and development. They are needed as the tools with which my Department does its job and there is no real discernible waste.

Is my hon. Friend aware that had the Conservative Government not cancelled the several hundred Canberra bombers ordered by the Labour Government the position today would have been even more difficult?

That is true.

asked the Minister of Supply, in view of the financial losses suffered by his Department on recent research and development of aero-engines, airframes, the Sea Vixen and the development of a new radar scanner, much of which was incurred by underestimating the costs of these projects, what steps he is taking to ensure that such waste of public moneys will not occur in the future.

My right hon. Friend is very conscious of the importance of improving standards of estimating in what is a very difficult field; and he is constantly seeking ways of doing so. On the other hand, the hon. Member should not assume that an excess of final cost over first estimate necessarily indicates waste or loss.

Recognising the fact that obviously a lot of benefit will accrue to the people concerned from the research being done, and in view of the fact that we have lost a lot of money on research and development projects which have been brought to fruition at tremendous cost on which we have not been able to get the outlay back again, does the hon. Gentleman not really view this with concern? Is he not aware that because of this waste on redundant mansions for the War Office and the development of aero-engines and all the items which the Minister is responsible for selling, his Department qualifies to be called the Department of Waste, not of Supply?

I do not accept that at all. There is no single cause for inaccurate estimating to which the Question refers and, consequently, there is no single remedy. The administrative procedures of the Department are always under scrutiny with a view to improving techniques for estimating. We try to analyse precisely what a particular project entails and to bring more informed critical judgments to bear on the estimate of cost of each stage.

asked the Minister of Supply (1) to what extent the form of contract commonly agreed by his Department for the development of an aero-engine includes a penalty clause to be applied when the manufacturers' estimates and calculations are inaccurate or incomplete;

(2) if he will make a statement on his future policy with regard to development contracts for aero-engines;

(3) to what extent, since the losses of some millions of pounds on the Bristol Proteus I aero-engine and the Bristol Brabazon aircraft, the technical staff of his Department has been strengthened for the more effective checking of estimates and calculations submitted to him by the manufacturers engaged on development contracts

Development contracts for aero engines do not include a penalty clause because the work to be done by its very nature renders initial estimates and calculations liable to a wide margin of error. This is inevitable when embarking on a new development which will take some years to complete and for which success, in its original conception, cannot be guaranteed. There has been some strengthening of the technical staff: but improvement in checking estimates and calculations depends more on improvement of techniques of estimating and the effort to this end has been increased.

It is our policy to include in development contracts provisions designed to enable the Department to keep a close watch on rises in the cost, and the causes of them, to review regularly the value of the project and to ensure that the Department is not liable for any increase over the estimate unless it has been specifically approved.

May I put three questions to the Parliamentary Secretary, as he has answered three Questions of mine together? Firstly, when we have a case such as the RA29, where the Comptroller and Auditor General points out that the company deliberately withheld certain information about research costs and, in fact, gave only a two-year estimate instead of a four-year estimate, is there no question of revising the money to be paid to such a firm? Is it not a little odd that there should be no penalty clause since, as the Comptroller and Auditor General points out, the Ministry itself would be under a liability to pay substantial damages if it were to fall down on its contract?

Finally, can the Parliamentary Secretary say what action is being taken following the Second Report of the Select Committee on Estimates, 1956–57, in which, in paragraph 122, it said:

"Your Committee consider that the whole basis of the Research and Development contract urgently needs reconsideration".

Are we to take it from the hon. Gentleman's reply that no consideration has been given to that at all?

The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that I cannot reply to a question which relates to specific projects which are at present under consideration by the Public Accounts Committee. It would not be in accordance with the practice of this House for me to comment on that until the Committee makes its Report.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary not aware that I was quoting not from the last Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General but from the Report of the Select Committee which considered identical criticisms and complaints of the present Comptroller and Auditor General's respected predecessor? May I ask him again, has any action at all been taken consequent upon the criticism made by the Select Committee in 1956?

I am aware of that. It does not alter the substance of my previous reply.

asked the Minister of Health what has been the response from local authorities to his request to them to consider taking appropriate action, as part of their health education arrangements, to make it known that cancer can often be cured if it is diagnosed and treated in its early stages.

In response to the circular sent out in 1953, 92 local health authorities applied for copies of the model scheme of cancer education prepared by the Central Council for Health Education. Considerable quantities of suitable publicity material have been bought from the Council and other organisations for local distribution.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend not think that is a rather disappointingly low figure of local authorities applying? Can he do anything further to stimulate their interest?

It is a very considerable proportion, as my hon. Friend will be aware. I certainly hope we can increase the proportion, and, no doubt, these constructive exchanges between us today will help to that end.

asked the Minister of Health if he will make a statement on new proposals for the pay of nurses and midwives.

Yes, Sir. Revised salaries for all the main grades in general, mental and maternity hospitals were agreed by the Whitley Council last week and should greatly improve the attraction of nursing and midwifery as a career. The agreement provides increases ranging from £12 to £29 in the case of student nurses, £54 to £87 in the case of staff nurses and midwives and £105 to £163 in the case of ward sisters and midwifery sisters. Matrons of non-training hospitals will receive increases ranging from £101 to £195 and matrons of nurse training schools increases ranging from £129 to £237. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and I have approved the proposals with effect from 1st March, 1959. The Whitley Council are now considering the grades not covered by this agreement.

While thanking my right hon. and learned Friend for his statement, may I ask whether he is aware that his approval of this decision will cause a good deal of satisfaction among those concerned with the welfare of nurses and midwives?

I am much obliged to my hon. Friend. That may well be the case.

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman say why it is that whenever nurses have increases in pay, which are very welcome on all sides of the House, they almost automatically have to pay an increase in lodging expenses, which causes great irritation to them? I speak as the husband of one of them. May I ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman whether this increase will do anything to allay the anxiety of the Royal College of Nursing, which pointed out some time ago that nurses were emigrating to Australia, America and Canada in increasing numbers because of the great disparity in their pay?

I should regret anything which would inconvenience or dislocate the hon. Member's domestic economy, but the short answer is that these charges are, generally speaking, below the economic charge and therefore it is only reasonable that as the pay goes up so should the charges in respect of board and lodging. I would remind the House that these have been agreed by the Whitley Council.

This has happened so often. We all welcome these increases in charges to these people. [Laughter.] I am sure Mr. Speaker will forgive me for what is a Freudian lapse. I should, of course, have said "pay." Will the Minister keep in mind that every time these excellent nurses and midwives are given an increase it is vitiated by this increase in the charge for accommodation? Surely, what the right hon. and learned Gentleman says does not entirely satisfy us, because this increase was called for without any reduction in consequence of an increased charge for accommodation.

It is far from true that these increases are vitiated. On the contrary, they represent a very substantial advantage right across the board.

Whilst also thanking my right hon. and learned Friend for this announcement, which will give very great pleasure, may I ask whether he will be good enough to have a word with the Chancellor of the Exchequer and ask him whether there can be a pensions increase Act for retired nurses and midwives, who have served this country so faithfully and well and whose services require to be recognised because their cost of living has gone up and they have had nothing in respect of it?

I am sure that my right hon. Friend, in common with all my right hon. Friends, takes a very careful note of everything that my hon. Friend says.

asked the Minister of Health what standards are now used for calculating the needs of an area for acute, chronic and maternity hospital beds per 1,000 of the population.

I do not think that this can be decided by rule of thumb, but only by the needs of the area concerned. It is, in the first place, for hospital boards to explain to me, in connection with any building project, the beds they consider necessary to meet the needs of the area.

Whilst welcoming the Minister's statement, may I ask whether he is aware that in certain regions there is some anxiety and that figures are quoted which suggest a very low provision of bed accommodation in those areas?

I am sorry that there should be these anxieties in any region. I hope that careful and objective study of the facts will help to dispel them.

asked the Minister of Health in view of the need to reduce expenditure on drugs, what directions he has given to hospital authorities on purchases of patented varieties of aspirin; and in what circumstances the patented varieties are administered to patients instead of ordinary aspirin.

I assume the hon. Member refers to proprietary forms of aspirin in respect of which no directions have been given to hospitals. Hospital medical staff are free to prescribe particular varieties of drugs if they think them necessary on clinical grounds, and I have no information about the use of proprietary forms of aspirin in these circumstances.

Has the right hon. and learned Gentleman any idea of the difference in cost between these patented varieties of aspirin and aspirin itself? Is he aware that on television one of the patented varieties is widely advertised at six tablets for 6d. as against 24 tablets of aspirin for 4d.? Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman not think, in view of the fact that they are prescribed, that he should inquire into that matter in relation to the instructions given to the ordinary doctor and in order to protect the ordinary public?

Guidance has been issued, of course, to hospital medical staff asking them to avoid the use of expensive proprietary preparations where alternatives exist, and asking them not in general to prescribe preparations which are advertised direct to the public. Both these forms of guidance should avoid the use of expensive proprietaries where there is any suitable standard alternative. I am quite prepared to consider whether the time has arisen for further reinforcement to be given by way of guidance.

Besides the giving of advice and guidance, are the prescriptions examined and, in consequence, the doctor communicated with in the same way as prescriptions are examined in general practice?

Obviously not in the same way. As the right hon. Lady knows, through the regional machinery we have methods of seeking to enforce economy, but clearly we could not have precisely the same machinery for what are two different sets of circumstances.

asked the Minister of Health if he will state the number of qualified psychiatric social workers employed in the United Kingdom, the proportions employed by hospital and local health authorities, respectively, and the number employed in each region in relation to population.

I will, with permission, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the available information which relates to the numbers employed by hospital authorities in England and Wales. I regret that corresponding figures for local health authorities are not readily available.

Is the Minister aware that if the figures which he gave fully last week for the Midland counties are anything to judge by, these figures will show a shockingly inadequate service? Is it the aim of his Ministry to develop a psychiatric social service in the country? Is he aware that at present it does not exist in large areas? If the present legislation is not to be a dead-letter on this subject, what superhuman efforts are being made by his Ministry to train and qualify people for this work?

There is certainly a need for more psychiatric social workers, and I wholly endorse what the hon. Member has said about the importance of this service. As to the methods about which he asks me, there is a special scheme of training allowances for students, by which we hope to assist recruitment.

asked tae Minister of Health if he is aware that patients in pain in Scunthorpe are kept waiting for a month before waiting for an appointment with an orthopaedic consultant; and what steps he will take to prevent this continuing.

I am aware that the normal waiting time is about a month, but urgent cases can be seen without delay. If the hon. and learned Member will let me have details of any cases where patients in pain are having to wait I will be glad to look into them.

Whilst I am very grateful for that reply, will not the Parliamentary Secretary try to speed up matters in this fast-growing town by the appointment of additional registrars or some such experts in the orthopaedic department?

If I thought that that would help I would certainly give serious consideration to it, but if a general practitioner refers the case as urgent the patient is seen without delay. Alternatively, a patient in pain can be seen at once by the casualty department.

asked the Minister of Health when he expects the work on the reorganisation of the hospitals in Scunthorpe to be finished.

If all goes well, in 1963.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there has been no start as yet? Was not a start promised a year ago, and cannot some date earlier than 1963 be spoken about?

I appreciate the hon. and learned Member's very proper concern with this matter. The reorganisation of which he speaks depends upon a major scheme now being planned for the development of Scunthorpe and District War Memorial Hospital. It is a £640,000 scheme and will include 103 more beds, additional outpatients', X-ray, pathology, physiotherapy and operating theatre accommodation, and we shall press on with it as fast as we can.