asked the Minister of Labour what Government assistance has been paid to Remploy Limited for the year 1958–59.

Payments to Remploy Limited during 1958–59 totalled £2,955,000.

Whilst thanking the Minister for that information, would he not agree, in view of the valuable work that Remploy Limited is performing and of which all hon. Members are aware, that the time has now come for the Government substantially to increase their contribution to Remploy so that, in its turn, it can expand the number of people which it can employ?

I think that the amount I have mentioned and the amount for the current year have been in line with the amounts given in the past. I think that in some cases the expansion must be bound up with the trading position of the company. It is quite true that it does a wonderful work, but it is essential that it should, as far as possible, exist as a trading company.

asked the Minister of Labour (1) in view of the fact that the present number of disabled people employed at the Remploy factory, Coventry, is 59 in comparison with an average of 71 over the last five years, why there is to be a delay in the admission of eight further people considered suitable by his officers;

(2) if he will make a statement upon the efforts being made by Remploy to secure more work for Coventry, and other, packaging factories, and also upon the assistance which is being given by his Department in this matter.

There is not enough work available to justify a further intake to the Coventry Remploy factory at present, but I understand that Remploy has already increased its sales force for packaging work and is at present seeking additional representatives. The main responsibility for obtaining orders must, of course, rest with the company, but my Department and the disablement advisory committees give such help as they can.

Whilst believing that the Minister wants to help, we never seem to get any further on this matter. Has the right hon. Gentleman looked at the actual financial position? Would he, for example, with regard to these eight people considered suitable for Coventry, look into what it costs in allowances for them not to be employed by Remploy as compared with the actual wages they would receive at Remploy? Is the Minister aware that some people look only at what they receive as wages and discount what they would otherwise be receiving?

I am quite prepared to look at that. To some extent, I think, the answer must be the same as I gave to the hon. Member for Aberdare (Mr. Probert) on the first Question. Remploy is not a charity. It is a splendid ideal and it has done this sort of thing better in this country than it has been done in any other. However, I think it would be a mistake if one created work—created orders—all the time for Remploy alone. By far the most satisfactory thing for Remploy is to obtain commercial orders and Government orders. As far as we are concerned, the main Government supplier being the Ministry of Supply, we try to do our part.

Is the Minister aware that this factory in Coventry had packaging facilities installed in it at the request of the Ministry? These facilities are not being used. We cannot agree that it is better to have these men sitting at home doing nothing rather than working in the factory, even if the Government have to pay.

There has been a fall in the volume both of commercial and Government work. As far as the disabled workers in the factory are concerned, they are paid full wages by Remploy for standing time. As regards the eight people to whom the hon. Lady's Question is particularly directed, two of them have been accepted by Remploy and are awaiting vacancies.

asked the Minister of Labour if he is aware of the need of the Remploy factories in Scotland to interest industrialists in their sponsorship schemes; and what steps he is taking to this end with a view to the maintaining of full employment in Scottish Remploy factories.

Yes, Sir. Remploy, assisted by my Department and by Disablement Advisory Committees, has given these schemes wide publicity among Scottish industrialists. Several industrialists have expressed interest in them. My hon. Friend has written to the hon. and learned Member giving details of the steps taken.

While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for that note, which I have not yet received, will he consider employing a person with a vivid imagination and a practical character to attract industrialists to take a greater part in these very useful schemes?

I very much want to attract sponsorship schemes to Remploy. In particular, I would like to see one or two of them in Scotland. One of the difficulties is that sponsorship schemes are sometimes difficult to promote in areas of high unemployment. It sounds paradoxical, but there is no labour shortage there which would induce subcontracting rather than an expansion of the employers' factory. I know that Remploy are very conscious of the needs of Scotland and are doing everything they can to secure sponsorship schemes for Scotland.

asked the Minister of Labour what representations he has had from Aberdeen trades unions complaining about unemployment in that city; what reply he has made; and what steps he is taking to deal with this problem.

I had a letter dated 11th December, 1958, from the Aberdeen Trades Council who had also written to my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade. I replied that I was in constant touch with my right hon. Friend about the employment needs of the area, and my local office continues its regular work of assisting unemployed workers to find jobs.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the representations made this morning to his Department by a delegation from Aberdeen? Is he yet in a position to make a constructive statement on what he intends to do as a result of that delegation? Will he make an interim statement now and, perhaps, a fuller one later at his convenience?

I am aware that this deputation, led by the hon. and learned Gentleman, was received this morning. It is a little early to expect me to make a statement about that deputation, although we would be very happy to consider what has been said. I think it is fair to say that there has been a substantial drop in unemployment in Aberdeen in recent months, which we are very happy to see. It has gone down very sharply indeed, and I hope that that process will continue.

asked the Minister of Labour how many ship-repair workers and how many docks' employees, respectively, have been unemployed at Barry for more than 14 days; and what steps are being taken to increase employment at the Barry docks.

Information as to the duration of unemployment is not available for particular industries. On 11th May, 195 persons last employed in shipbuilding and ship-repairing industry were registered as unemployed in Barry and the average number of registered dock workers proving attendance for whom no work was available was 83 in the week ending 30th May. As regards the second part of the Question, I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer given by the Prime Minister to the hon. Member for Newcastle-on-Tyne, Central (Mr. Short) on 27th January.

As these figures represent a rather high proportion of a labour force which has already contracted, and as Barry is to be distinguished from the position of other ports which have been affected by the recent decline in world trade because in South Wales the decline has continued ever since the end of the war due to the decline in coal shipments, could not my right hon. Friend consider some special treatment here and possibly consult his right hon. Friends, particularly the First Lord of the Admiralty, to see whether some Government ship-repair work can be provided?

It is true that the whole of the Cardiff area is a difficult area. As my hon. Friend has indicated, one of the main reasons is the decline in the coal export trade. I am in constant touch with my right hon. Friends, particularly the First Lord of the Admiralty, on this sort of problem.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a problem of growing anxiety in the absence of work is the complete inadequacy of unemployment insurance payments for men who have been out of work for some weeks? Is he further aware that there is growing hardship in this area because people are simply not able to keep pace with their commitments? Will he look urgently into the possibility of raising the unemployment insurance benefits?

I think that that supplementary question goes a great deal wider than the Question, but it has always been thought to be difficult to isolate unemployment benefit for that particular purpose. For example, sickness and unemployment must surely march together.

While that is so and while realising the difficulties, will the right hon. Gentleman take into account that in ship-repairing there is probably a longer-term group of unemployed than in almost any other industry, and that there has been unemployment there for some months? Therefore, the degree of hardship becomes greater.

Yes, I understand that, but I do not think anyone suggests that we can have differential rates of unemployment benefit according to the industry. It seems to me that it would be impossible to operate such a system. As to the inadequacy of the benefits, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance, who has been listening to this exchange, keeps those under review.

asked the Minister of Labour what is the number of disabled persons registered on the disabled persons register in Sunderland; and how many persons so registered are at present unemployed.

3,242, of whom 451 were unemployed on 19th May.

Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate the particular difficulties of disabled persons in Sunderland at present in obtaining employment? Will he consider whether it is possible to provide more opportunities at the Remploy factory?

The figures of disabled persons in Sunderland are relatively very high, although over the last year in Sunderland—which has had a bad year from the employment point of view—the percentage increase among the disabled was a good deal less. Indeed, it has been only one-third of the increase among able-bodied unemployment. I agree that this is only relative comfort, but it shows that employers are conscious of their responsibilities towards it. There is a full complement in the Remploy factory of 75. I understand that the Remploy factory in Sunderland is employing its full complement at present.

asked the Minister of Labour whether, since the introduction of new employment at Douglas, Lanarkshire, would benefit a wide area of unregistered underemployment in the Upper Ward of Lanarkshire, he will assist an incoming firm in training local labour.

I would refer my non. Friend to the Answer given to him on 18th March. The particular proposal set out in his recent letter to my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary is being considered, and my hon. Friend will write to him as soon as possible.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for that reply, will he bear in mind that once or twice recently one has been approached by a firm which might consider seeking to obtain factory space but would first wish to consider whether it is possible to get some local workers trained, perhaps in a local building available, in advance of opening the factory? Will my right hon. Friend bear that in mind when lie studies that matter and also realise that we are grateful for the attention that he is giving to it?

indicated assent.

asked the Minister of Labour what special action is being taken to provide employment for school-leavers in the Development Areas in the North-East.

We have on the whole been successful as the figures for the December and April school leavers show in absorbing these boys and girls into employment. But this is not a short term problem, and the Government intend to continue their policy of stimulating economic expansion and particularly of encouraging new industries in Development Areas.

If my right hon. Friend cannot manage to pay a visit to the North-East, will he pay particular attention to this problem, which is of particular concern at this time of year, before the end of another school term?

Yes. My hon. Friend has extended an invitation to me to visit the North-East, and I hope to do so in the autumn.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider making arrangements whereby some of the school-leavers capable of profiting from a further course of education can be induced to stay at school for a little longer?

I am keeping in close touch with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Education on this matter, and that is one of the matters to which we pay attention.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will specify the labour centres and labour schemes under his Department in Great Britain with particular reference to Scotland and indicate what financial assistance is available towards training at each of these centres.

Regular facilities for training are available under the Government Vocational Training Scheme at 14 Government training centres, of which one is in Scotland. I will, with permission, circulate further details in the OFFICIAL REPORT. Training under the scheme can in certain cases also be provided at technical colleges and other training establishments. Training provided under the scheme is free and maintenance allowances are paid to trainees.

While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for that comprehensive reply, can he specify in figures the amount of money available for the Scottish centres?

I am afraid that I cannot do that without notice. The one Scottish centre is at Hillington. If the hon. and learned Gentleman would like details of expenditure there, perhaps he would table a separate Question.

asked the Minister of Labour if, with a view to maintaining and increasing the volume of employment in the hotel and catering trades by attracting more visitors from the Continent, he will introduce an amendment to the Catering Wages Act which will provide for a service charge to be added to all hotel and catering bills and for tipping to be made illegal.

No, Sir. I do not think the subject lends itself to legislation.

This is the kind of Question which should have been tabled by the other side, because tipping is neither consistent with the dignity of labour nor with any good system of wage structure. Is it not time that we began to dismantle this system, which is often irritating in practice and very uneven in operation?

Even if all that is so—and some of it may be—I would not have thought that this is an appropriate subject for legislation. I asked the Board of Trade about this matter in view of my hon. Friend's Question, and the Department told me that at the tourist conference held in May, 1958, although any number of tourist organisations attended, not a single one raised this point. I doubt whether there is as much widespread interest as has been suggested.

Does not that bear out the fact that the wages paid under the Catering Wages Board are extremely low, especially for women? What ought to happen is a raising of the wages rather than pressing this question of tipping.

That is a matter for wages boards, which by recent decision of the House have now become wages councils.

asked the Minister of Labour how many North Kensington residents were registered as unemployed at the end of April at the Brook Green Employment Exchange; and how many of these were under 25 years of age.

I regret that the statistics for the Brook Green Employment Exchange do not record North Kensington residents separately, but the latest figures for Brook Green show that at December, 1958, about 22 per cent. of the adult unemployed were under 25 years of age.

Could some effort be made to collect these figures? The number of idle hands may be relevant to the problems of the area.

The figure of 22 per cent. for Brook Green is not really different from the figure for Great Britain, which is around 20 per cent. Brook Green, however, includes Kensington, Hammersmith and Barnes, and I would need to examine all the individual records to answer the hon. Member's Question in relation to North Kensington. I do not think that the time involved would be justified.

asked the Minister of Labour (1) the ratio of registered unemployed boys to notified unfilled vacancies for each of the Ministry of Labour regions in Great Britain at the latest convenient date;

As the reply includes a table of figures, I will, if I may,

asked the Minister of Labour (1) the numbers of unemployed registered at the Shotts Employment Exchange in April, 1958, and April, 1959; and what percentage of the insured population these represented;

(2) the latest figures of those registered as unemployed at the Shotts Employment Exchange; and what percentage of the insured population this represents.

Two hundred and eighty-four or 3·8 per cent. at 14th circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I would, however, remind the hon. Member of what I said in reply to his Question on 13th April, 1959, about the misleading nature of these ratios.

Will the Minister confirm that the ratio of unemployed boys in Scotland is about fifteen times worse than the ratio of unemployed boys to unfilled vacancies in the Midlands? Does he not think that this is an intolerable position for Scotland?

I am not sure how I can make the immediate calculation. The ratio is certainly much higher and, possibly, even rather more than the hon. Member suggests. I merely say that there is no direct comparison that can be drawn between these figures. It would be valid only if the occupational classification were the same.

Is the Minister aware that these figures are very considerable compared with the figures for the United Kingdom? Is he not also aware that these figures would be much higher had not many hundreds of the people left the area? Will the right hon. Gentleman do anything at all, in conjunction with the President of the Board of Trade, to ensure that alternative work is brought to an area where the coal industry has collapsed almost completely?

I agree with the hon. Lady about the seriousness of the problem. This is one of the most difficult areas with which we have to deal. As for collaboration with my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, I will, of course, take it up. This is now a D.A.T.A.C. area and we are trying to bring new industry to it, so far, I am afraid, without much success. We will, however, go on trying.

asked the Minister of Labour the number of men and women registered at the Shotts Employment Exchange who have been unemployed for more than six months and for more than eight weeks, respectively.

On 9th March, the latest date for which these quarterly statistics are available, there were 79 men and boys and 81 women and girls registered at the Shotts Employment Exchange and Youth Employment Office who had been unemployed for more than eight weeks but less than six months, and 71 men and boys and 52 women and girls who had been unemployed over six months. I will send the comparable figures for June to the hon. Lady as soon as they are available.

Does the Minister not agree that those figures which he has just given show that the majority of those unemployed and registered at the Shotts Exchange have been unemployed for a very long time? Indeed, some of them have been unemployed almost for years. Is the right hon. Gentleman not also aware that many people are tired of hearing of the efforts that the Government are making? What they want to see is some result from those efforts. Surely, when the Government have been considering the question of advance factories, a place in which unemployment has been of such long duration should have been attended to long ago.

I understand what the hon. Lady says. I, too, want to see results from these efforts. That is why we make them. The figures which I have just given underline the fact that the main problem here is that of a marked shortage of jobs for women. It is not an unusual situation in coal mining areas, but there are very limited employment opportunities here. That is why we will continue to give the area as high a priority as we can.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is yet in a position to report on the qualifications and pay of youth employment officers.

I understand that a statement of qualifications prepared by the local authority associations concerned is likely to be ready very shortly. It is intended to serve as a basis for the negotiation of appropriate salary scales through the machinery of the appropriate National Joint Council for Local Authorities.

While thanking the Minister for that reply, may I ask whether he is not aware that these discussions have been going on since January? Is he not also aware that the variations in the qualifications required and the salaries paid in this important service are leading to discontent and demoralisation in the service at the very moment when it is most needed? Will the right hon. Gentleman, therefore, do what he can to speed up a settlement of this issue on a fair basis?

I certainly agree with what the hon. Lady said about the importance of this service and the length of time that the negotiations have taken. I hope now that they are very near the point of finality. Then we can get proper qualifications and appropriate salary scales as soon as possible.

asked the Minister of Labour to what extent under his regulations a person who has worked short-time for twelve months automatically becomes a part-time worker and, as such, is disentitled to unemployment benefit.

I have been asked to reply. I recently made Regulations, coming into force on 8th April, 1959, which ensure that in determining the normal extent of a person's working week for the purposes of unemployment benefit, no account will be taken of short-time working due to adverse industrial conditions.

Whilst thanking the right hon. Gentleman for that reply, may I suggest that he has hardly answered the Question? Rather has he answered Questions in my name which appear later on the Order Paper. What the Question asks is whether a worker who is on short time for a considerable period then becomes classed as a short-time worker and is not entitled to unemployment pay as such. At the moment, employed workers are put into two categories. They can be shown as part-time workers and a person can be a part-time worker whilst at the same time not being a part-time worker in so far as he is only on short-time. Will the Minister look into the matter? I know that it is very complex.

Yes. The hon. Member has referred to a number of aspects, but I understood him to have principally in mind on this Question, apart from the others which I shall be answering later, the situation which had arisen on the construction of the 1948 Regulations in relation to men who were working short-time due to adverse industrial conditions. As my main Answer made clear, we have dealt with that and restored the position to what, I understand, it was always intended to be.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that those responsible for research programmes in nuclear engineering are concerned at the difficulties caused by the call-up of non-graduate research staff; whether he is prepared to give the matter further consideration.

Representations have been made to me from time to time that the call-up of non-graduates engaged on research has created difficulties for firms engaged in nuclear engineering and other industries. On the advice of my Technical Personnel Committee, which considered this matter again last autumn, I am not prepared to extend the deferment arrangements for science and engineering graduates to men with other qualifications.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not recognise that this is a serious matter to some important engineering establishments as well as a serious matter to the young men involved? Is it not absolutely wrong that graduates should be excluded whilst the work of non-graduates who are doing almost equally important research work for the nation in this field is being cut in this way?

I am not without sympathy for that point of view. That is why I particularly asked my technical personnel committee to consider it. That committee, however, came to the conclusion, first, that it is easy to define graduates; and the scheme is kept to them because it must be kept within bounds. It is, however, extremely difficult to distinguish between all the different professional qualifications that non-graduates have.

If an employer regards a non-graduate research worker as important and, indeed, essential to the undertaking, is that not a sufficient definition?

No, I am afraid it is not. That would be giving to the employers the right of veto over the call-up for National Service.

Is the Minister aware that some of the research directors would be willing to discuss with his personnel some definition that they believe to be quite as effective as the existing graduate definition?

If the hon. Member would like to organise such a deputation, I will certainly receive it.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether, in view of the hardship being experienced, he will reconsider his proposals to vary the rents of forestry houses, taking full account of the average earnings of forestry workers.

The Forestry Commission is reviewing the rents of houses occupied by its workers. This is part of a general review of rents of quarters occupied by Government employees. New rents have not yet been determined. My right hon. Friend cannot, however, accept the implication that the present rents cause hardship.

But is it not a fact that most forestry workers are earning wages which are comparable with those paid to workers in agriculture, and is there any conceivable reason why the Forestry Commission should seek to recover economic rents while farmers and others who employ people in agriculture in most cases have service tenancies not based on some economic rent? Could not this matter be reconsidered?

Rents must be related in some way to standards of accommodation provided——

Why?

—but I would assure my hon. Friend that it is unlikely that any of these workers will have to bear any excessive increase.

In fairness to the agricultural workers, would it not be fair for the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to add that agricultural workers do get several shillings less per week than the forestry workers, whose rate is usually fixed a little above the agricultural workers' rate?

Yes.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he is aware of public concern at the increase in salad prices immediately prior to the Whitsuntide weekend; and, in view of the fact that this happens every year, if he will set up a committee of inquiry to investigate the profits made by growers, wholesalers and retailers.

My right hon. Friend is aware that salad prices did tend generally to rise. Supply and demand for salads fluctuates greatly. When, as at Whitsun, there is a heavy demand, which was reinforced this year by the spell of good weather, prices rise. A thorough inquiry was made only three years ago by the Runciman Committee, and I see no point in initiating another.

Is the Joint Parliamentary Secretary aware that we get that Answer whether it is fine or whether it is wet? While not knowing whether he does his own shopping or not, may I ask him whether he is aware that on the Friday before Whit Sunday the small shop where I went was ashamed at having to ask 6d. more for tomatoes and 6d. more for cucumbers and that lettuce was up by 3d.? Is he aware that the growers and shopkeepers state that the trouble is that these goods have to go through two or three wholesalers before they reach the shops? Why cannot he have a look at it?

I have advised the hon. Lady before today to read the Runciman Committee's Report, which goes into this, and is very good reading. I commend it to the hon. Lady. I think one must take account of the conclusions which that Committee came to in that Report, and I would say to her that while prices no doubt have risen, she must not lose sight of the fact that some prices previously may have been ones at which the growers were losing considerable sums of money.

We all read the Runciman Report a very long time ago, so can the hon. Gentleman tell us when the Government are going to take any effective action as a result of that Report?

The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that that does not arise on this Question.

Oh.

On a point of order. While that Answer may have reference to the Runciman Report, it has none to my shopping bill prior to Whitsun, so may I give notice that I shall raise it on the Adjournment if possible?

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he is now in a position to make a statement on the Heneage Report, which has been under consideration since 1951.

I am glad to say that agreement in principle has recently been reached by the associations principally concerned and my right hon. Friend is now arranging for further detailed study of these proposals.

Can the hon. Gentleman say how long this detailed study will take in view of the fact that the preliminary discussions have taken over eight years?

I am hopeful that we shall be making some progress here as a result of this agreement, and I am sure that the hon. Member will be as encouraged as I am by the fact that these associations have come together.

Can the Parliamentary Secretary say whether, after all the alternatives which have been discussed over the past eight years, he will satisfy himself that the final alternative which may be accepted will be useful?

Yes, that is one of the things we are going to consider very carefully indeed.

While, of course, the opinions of the various associations are immensely important in this matter, may I ask my hon. Friend whether he will make sure that no final decision is given effect to until the House of Commons has had an opportunity of expressing its views?

I will inform my right hon. Friend of my hon. and gallant Friend's view.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what increases are expected in imports of beef from the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland.

During the first quarter of this year, the United Kingdom received 1,320 tons of beef from the Federation, all of it from Southern Rhodesia. These are the first significant imports from these territories for many years. My right hon. Friend understands that the Federation hopes to export a total of five or six thousand tons of beef to Europe during the year, most of which is likely to come to this country.

While thanking my hon. Friend for that Answer, may I ask if he will consider giving every encouragement to the importers here to take Federation meat when it is available?

I do not think that there is any need for specific steps. This meat is being readily absorbed.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when the result of the research into the work revaluation claim of the Reproduction A grades of the Ordnance Survey Department will be made known.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when a reply may be expected to the claim of the Reproduction A grade of Ordnance Survey for work revaluation, which was made on 15th November, 1957.

My right. hon. Friend hopes it will be possible to send a reply to the staff association concerned about the end of this month.

While being extremely obliged to my hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask whether he does not agree that the claim which was lodged in November, 1957, has taken an extraordinarily long time to be considered, and will he ensure that the word "soon" is not used again in fixing any further date ahead?

Yes, I do realise that it has taken a very considerable amount of time, but it was a very complicated claim. I am told that the initial claim was based on a pay increase awarded to a different class of staff, the cartographic draughtsmen, and it was not possible to accept the claim in this form. Therefore, there had to be further discussions which took some considerable time. I am glad to say that we hope, as I indicated in the previous reply, to send a reply at about the end of this month.

asked the Minister of Agriculture Fisheries and Food whether he is aware that inshore fishermen who took advantage of the Inshore Fishing Act, 1945, between September, 1957, and June, 1958, to replace their fishing boats, now find themselves saddled with repayment of the loan over 20 years at 6¼ per cent. per annum; and what action he proposes to relieve these fishermen of this burden.

No loans have been made under the Inshore Fishing Act, 1945, since 1952, when the present loan scheme administered by the White Fish Authority came into operation. The rate of interest of 6¼ per cent. at which inshore fishermen obtained 20-year loans from the Authority between September, 1957, and June, 1958, compares with a current rate of 5⅞ per cent. I fear I can see no basis for reopening agreements between the Authority and the fishermen.

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that these men were forced to secure these loans when the Bank Rate went up to 7 per cent. in December, 1957? They could not wait. If what the Chancellor of the Exchequer is telling us be true, then we understand that the emergency is now past, but these men are saddled with a 6¼ per cent. charge for another 18 years, which makes it extremely difficult for them. Is there nothing he can do about it?

No, I do not think there is. I can understand and sympathise with the hon. Member, but this applies to everybody who was borrowing money on a long-term basis at that time, and if one made an exception for one section of the community it would have to be extended to others.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what is the estimated consumption of fresh milk per person in Newcastle-upon-Tyne at the latest available date; and how this figure compares with the national average.

The latest figures available for Newcastle-on-Tyne are those for 1955, when the Milk Marketing Board made a household survey in nine large towns. That survey showed the consumption of liquid milk in Newcastle to be 4·37 pints per head per week compared with an average of 4·74 pints for the nine towns covered by the survey. The national average for 1955, as shown by the National Food Survey, was 4·81 pints per week.

Does the hon. Gentleman not feel that it is about time that we had a further inquiry? While welcoming the work of the Dairy Festival and other schemes of this kind, does he not feel that in these areas where consumption is low there should be a continuing campaign to try to increase it?

Inquiries of this sort on a local basis are instituted by the Milk Marketing Board, not by the Government. We try to get our figures from the National Food Survey, covering the country as a whole. I think it would be difficult for us to have selective inquiries in this way. I agree that the figures showed a lower consumption in Newcastle at that time. I have no means of knowing whether that is the position today.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many residents of North Kensington were receiving public assistance at the end of April last; and how many of these were under 25 years of age.

I am informed by the National Assistance Board that the information asked for is not available as North Kensington is served by two of the Board's area offices each of which covers other areas as well.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance, in view of the concern amongst sufferers from pneumoconiosis, if he will now consider the advisability of setting up a National Appeals Board, to which cases of suspected pneumoconiosis which have been turned down by the existing medical panels may be submitted.

I am afraid this is not at present possible.

Arising from that reply, may I ask the Minister whether he is not aware—and surely he must be from the correspondence he has had previously on the subject—that there is growing dissatisfaction today among the unfortunate victims of pneumoconiosis at being turned down by the medical appeal tribunals? Is he further aware that the confidence of the men in these medical panels has now been destroyed? Cannot the right hon. Gentleman do something to restore the confidence felt by these men eighteen months ago and even longer back than that?

Whilst I would not go as far as the hon. Member, I appreciate that there is a widespread desire for the introduction of an appeal in this matter. I have been into it very fully. As the House may know, I made regulations at the beginning of this year introducing an appeal on diagnosis to the medical appeal tribunals in respect of other prescribed diseases.

I was not able to include pneumoconiosis for the reason that there is a very limited number of adequately qualified medical specialists, who are at the moment fully occupied on the ordinary panels. Their work, of course, will be very much increased by the wide and comprehensive X-ray survey which the National Coal Board is undertaking. When this is out of the way, which I think will not be for some time, I hope to see some progress made in this connection.

Are we to understand that consequent upon the inadequacy of medical specialists on this peculiar and particular complaint these men must suffer? Can the right hon. Gentleman not do something to arrest this breach of confidence which is now taking place, particularly in the north of England? Surely, he can do something in his Department?

I do not accept that there is a breach of confidence. I am in close touch with those concerned, including a number of hon. Members, on various points arising from the diagnosis and treatment of pneumoconiosis cases. The Question, of course, refers to the particular expedient of an appeal. I am sure the hon. Member would agree with me that it would be no use, and indeed positively harmful, to introduce a system of appeal on a medical matter in which the appeal lay to tribunals guided by medical men less qualified than those who determined the original question.

Since the right hon. Gentleman says that at present it is quite impossible to do what my hon. Friend the Member for Ince (Mr. T. Brown) is asking for, would he not do something in the intervening period until he has the specialists—and I am not at all sure that it could not be done—to have a complete inquiry into this whole question of the diagnosis of pneumoconiosis? Surely, if the right hon. Gentleman lived in a mining area, as does my hon. Friend and as I do, he would realise the great dissatisfaction at present and the great lack of confidence in the present system.

I do not know from the way the hon. Lady has framed her question whether she is fully aware of the very skilled and detailed research work on these lines which is being conducted by the Pneumoconiosis Research Unit at Llandough, and which is going on with the fullest encouragement from the Government.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that the time has now come for a re-examination of the criteria upon which doctors decide their diagnosis of this disease? In particular, does he not appreciate that the margin between pneumoconiosis and emphysema has become so thin that disaffection exists because it is possible to have two men one of whom is certified as disabled by pneumoconiosis and receives compensation by way of industrial injury benefit and the other is held by the doctor to be suffering from emphysema, whereas to the layman there appears to be no difference between the symptoms and there is a growing feeling that both are industrial diseases? Has not the time come for a complete review of the medical criteria?

I am sure the right hon. Gentleman knows that a great deal of work has been and is being done on pneumoconiosis on the one hand and emphysema and bronchitis on the other, and I should not have thought that at the present stage such an inquiry would serve any purpose other than to delay detailed consideration.

Owing to the unsatisfactory nature of the reply and the growing disquiet in the mining areas on this matter, I beg to give notice that I will raise it on the Adjournment at the first opportunity.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether he will propose the amendment of Article 58 of the Royal Warrant so as to ensure that any war pensioner who has served a sentence of imprisonment is not punished twice for the same offence by being deprived of his war disability pension.

No, Sir. It has for a long time been a condition of many forms of public pension that they are liable to forfeiture in cases where the recipient is sent to prison. I have, however, discretionary powers to restore a war pension on release, and these powers are very widely exercised.

Is the Minister aware that in two recent cases, particulars of which I sent to his Department, two men, one of whom had been rendered deaf and the other had lost a limb in the service of their country, not only had their pensions withdrawn while they were in prison, which is understandable, but have been refused restoration of the pensions on their release from prison on the ground that they have been in prison more than once? Is it not a quite intolerable situation that once a man has served his sentence for a crime he should be punished again by being deprived of a war pension to which he is entitled because of a disability incurred in service on behalf of the country?

I have studied the two cases about which the hon. Lady was in correspondence with the Joint Parliamentary Secretary. I do not want to go into details but both cases involved a number of serious convictions, and warning was given in advance of the possible effect of a further conviction on the payment of the war pension. I do not think that these cases invalidate either the Answer which I gave or the general principle which, as the hon. Lady knows, goes far wider than war pensions.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will make regulations to reduce the hardship caused to workers who are on short-time, when holidays intervene by not reducing the working week proportionate to the length of holiday.

I think the hon. Member has in mind a recent case in which difficulty arose as a result of the terms of certain guaranteed week agreements. The solution to the problem lies in the hands of those responsible for these agreements. If the hon. Member has in mind some other matter perhaps he would write to me.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will make regulations to allow workers who are on Friday and Monday short-time working which are consecutive rostered work days to draw unemployment pay.

Where Friday and Monday are days of unemployment, there seems to be no reason why these workers should not, subject to the ordinary conditions, be entitled to unemployment benefit. Parliament has placed the decision on individual claims in the hands of statutory authorities, with which I have no right to interfere, but if the hon. Member has in mind any general difficulty and will let me have particulars, I will gladly look into it.

While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for that reply, may I ask whether something should not be done to ensure closer co-ordination between Ministry of Labour officials and the right hon. Gentleman's Department, because they seem to give different rulings in these cases? Whilst agreeing that the right hon. Gentleman's reply is a definite improvement and has clarified the position, may I say that the fact remains that two bodies try to interpret the regulations? Can the right hon. Gentleman put the matter right?

I have no reason to believe that the Ministry of Labour, which administers unemployment benefit on my behalf, and my own Department take any different view of the law, either on this or any other point, but if the hon. Gentleman has in mind a particular case in which there is difficulty, I should be only too glad to try to sort it out.

asked the Paymaster-General if it was with his authority that Sir John Cockcroft made a statement at Darwin, on 25th April, to the effect that 25 per cent. of the electricity requirements of the United Kingdom would be met by atomic generation in 1966, 50 per cent. by 1975 and 100 per cent. by the end of the century.

No, Sir. I understand that this was an informal statement representing Sir John Cockcroft's personal views.

Would the hon. Gentleman agree that it is a rather irregular statement to be made by a very important person like Sir John Cockcroft? Whilst I am not trying to underestimate the advantages of nuclear energy, may I ask whether, if we are to use it to the extent stated by Sir John Cockcroft, it all depends on the economic situation?

The Government are not responsible for the statement that Sir John Cockcroft made, but, unlike some statements on the subject of nuclear energy, anything that he says is worthy of considerable respect.

Would the hon. Gentleman get his noble Friend to look into this matter, not so much in relation to the statement by Sir John Cockcroft but in relation to the Electricity Authority's provision of atomic power stations? Particularly in view of the harmful effect on the coal industry and the increased cost of electricity from atomic power stations, are we not going too far, in view of United States experience in this matter?

That is much too wide a matter for a supplementary question. The programme of nuclear energy for the next few years was settled after careful consideration, and it certainly could not be upset on any temporary considerations.

asked the Paymaster-General, in view of the continuing absence of rural electrification in many areas, such as Norfolk, if he will now authorise area boards to undertake further additional work on rural electrification.

The area electricity boards are well ahead of the targets for rural electrification which were announced to the House on 20th January, 1959. Every opportunity is being taken to make further progress in this matter.

The area boards may be ahead of their targets, but this is no consolation to the many small business people and small farmers in many rural parts of Norfolk who are still without a supply of electricity, despite the fact that they are reasonably near where electricity is available. Will the Minister do his best to try to expedite the further supply of electricity, because these small business people in particular find competition from others who have electricity very difficult, and it will give much pleasure to them if he can do something to expedite this supply.

The boards, with the assistance and guidance of the Government, have made good progress faster than they expected. The hon. Gentleman must realise that there is a limit to the unremunerative connections which can be undertaken by boards who have statutory obligations and also obligations to their existing consumers.

asked the Paymaster-General, in view of the uncertainty that exists concerning the supply and demand of British indigenous fuels, and the lack of a coherent policy dealing with the supply of refined fuel, if he will recommend the appointment of a Royal Commission to inquire and advise on the fuel problems of this country, with a view to giving guidance to the National Coal Board, the Central Electricity Generating Board and the Gas Council on future planning to meet potential demand.

No, Sir.

In view of the negative reply, will the Minister agree that some committee of inquiry should be set up because of the present very complex fuel problem?

No, Sir. This is a matter on which there is a difference of opinion between the two sides of the House. I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman must accustom himself to the fact that if the people of England can get cheap fuel at a profit they are not going to be bothered with dear fuel at a loss.

Do I gather from that reply by the Parliamentary Secretary that although when this country was desperately short of fuel of any kind miners were asked to surrender their Saturdays and to do many other things, the Government now recognise no obligation to have some regard to their future in spite of their past history?

No, Sir, the right hon. Gentleman must not assume that.

asked the Paymaster-General (1) what is the estimated cost of an undersea power cable for the bulk supply of electrical energy to Northern Ireland from south-west Scotland;

(2) what is the estimated charge, per 100,000 units, which would require to be made for the supply of electrical current from the United Kingdom to Northern Ireland by means of a submarine cable;

(3) what consideration has been given by Her Majesty's Government, in conjunction with the Governments of Northern Ireland and Eire, to the possibility of extending the national electricity grid so as to include Northern Ireland and Eire; and whether he will make a statement.

There have been no recent discussions between Governments. This project was considered by the Government of Northern Ireland a few years ago but was judged to be uneconomic in the circumstances then prevailing. Further exchanges have now taken place between the Northern Ireland and South of Scotland Electricity Authorities and my noble Friend understands that the Northern Ireland Authorities will shortly be making a further study of the problems involved in conjunction with the British Electricity Authorities. I would ask my hon. Friend to await the results of this investigation.

asked the Paymaster-General what steps are being taken to utilise slurry as fuel in electricity generating stations; and whether he will make a statement on the negotiations now proceeding for the siting of such a station in Fife.

The National Coal Board are in continuous consultation with the Central Electricity Generating Board and the South of Scotland Electricity Board about the use of slurry in power stations. These discussions have led to a significant increase in the use of this fuel for electricity generation over the last four years.

My noble Friend understands that the negotiations between the National Coal Board and the South of Scotland Electricity Board over the proposed station in Fife are making good progress.

Whilst thanking the hon. Gentleman for that reply, can he give us any indication of when the negotiations are likely to reach a definite conclusion?

I cannot give a date, but they are going well, and obviously it is to the advantage of both parties that they should come to a conclusion, so I think we can be hopeful in the matter.

asked the Paymaster-General what research has been carried out into the possibilities of recovering methane gas from sewage treatment; and what estimate has been made of its cost compared with imported methane gas.

The process of recovering methane gas from sewage is already well understood and about thirty schemes are in operation throughout the country. It is, however, costly and is only economic at the largest sewage works. It is not yet possible to estimate the cost of producing town gas from liquid methane.

As the Gas Council has been importing methane, can my hon. Friend say whether it is more expensive than methane produced from these schemes, and will research be continued to try to cheapen the schemes as time goes on and make them more economic?

As I said in my first answer, as yet nobody really knows what is the cost of imported methane. That is the object of the test voyages. However, the sewage gas supplies could only contribute something of the order of one-tenth of 1 per cent. of national fuel supplies. I do not think, therefore, that the two are really comparable.

asked the Paymaster-General if he will lay before the House the details of the agreement he has authorised between the Gas Council and Constock for the experimental import of liquid methane into the United Kingdom.

No, Sir. This is a commercial agreement between the Council and an American company.

Would the Minister say why he will not disclose the agreement? Is this another instance of the stranglehold of American capital on British industry? If we must have liquid methane, how long will it be before we get it from our own oilfields in the Middle East?

I think the suspicious nature of some hon. Gentlemen opposite about the activities of a nationalised industry is extraordinary. [An HON. MEMBER: "Answer the question."] The gas industry, as a commercial undertaking, has come to the conclusion that this is something worth doing, and the Government have concurred. It is not normal for commercial agreements, either in the public or in the private field, to be published, and that is all that my answer stated.

Do I understand from the Parliamentary Secretary that the Ministry of Power, whose function we presume it is to co-ordinate our fuel and power resources in order to make the best use of them, has not taken any view about the importation of liquid methane, with all the consequences that this might have for the coal industry?

Again, the right hon. Gentleman must not assume that. We are taking a great interest in the matter. The first thing to do is to find out if this is economic or not. The very forthcoming attitude of the Gas Council should be supported if it thinks, and finds out, that this is an economic source of power for British industry. In an enterprising way the Gas Council is trying to find out exactly what are the facts, and the Ministry is awaiting those facts. When they are determined, it will be the proper time to make a decision of policy as to whether or not to encourage further its commercial use.

The hon. Gentleman, in reply to my hon. Friend's Question, said that the agreement has been authorised between the Government and the Gas Council. If that is so, surely it is wrong for him to refuse to lay it before the House? The House of Commons has a right to know what the agreement is about.

I am afraid I must keep to what I have said already. It is not normal for commercial agreements of this kind to be published.

asked the Paymaster General whether he will direct the attention of the Electricity Board and Gas Council to the Pensions (Increase) Act, with a view to stimulating similar action on their behalf for their pensioners.

The Electricity Council and Gas Council are fully aware of the provisions of the Bill now under consideration by this House.

Whilst thanking my hon. Friend for that comment, may I ask him if he will indicate that the Government would welcome action on the part of the electricity and gas undertakings, having regard to the fact that we now have the Pensions (Increase) Bill for other Crown servants?

The Bill is still before the House, and the primary duty lies with the two Councils, but the Government will, of course, expeditiously consider any proposals which come to them.

asked the Paymaster General if he will give a general direction to the gas boards to limit the amount of gas accepted from oil refineries.

No, Sir.

Having already mutilated consumption by its economic policy, are the Government conscious of the severe injury which this new process will inflict on the coal industry?

No, Sir. I think that is an extremely short-sighted estimate of the situation. The gas industry is one of the coal industry's best customers. If the gas industry cannot sell cheap gas, it will not sell any gas, and then it will not buy any coal.

As the two refineries in the South of England from which the gas industry will take tail gas will displace 200,000 tons of deep-mined coal, where will the Government find customers for that coal?

As I have said, the gas industry must get the cheapest supplies it can. It cannot be in the country's interest that tail gas should go to waste. Ii is useful, valuable and cheap fuel; it should be burned, and the gas industry are the best people to burn it.

In view of the answer given by the hon. Gentleman to Question No. 41, which was a declaration of war by the Government on the coal industry, can the Parliamentary Secretary tell us how far the Government are going to run down this industry?

I am afraid the hon. Gentleman must put down his supplementary question. I could not grasp it.

asked the Paymaster-General whether he will make a further statement on the committee appointed under the chairmanship of Sir Cecil Weir to inquire into possible joint working between area electricity and gas boards.

My noble Friend has not yet received the views of all the boards concerned, but it is already clear that some of the Committee's recommendations may be usefully pursued.

asked the Paymaster-General what progress has been made in the work on the expansion of existing uses and development of new uses of coal.

Our main hope of expanding the existing uses of coal lies in encouraging economic activity and the measures announced in the Budget already appear to be doing so. Progress is also being made in producing smokeless fuels and in developing new methods of gasifying coal. For example, the output of the National Coal Board's new fuel "Warmco" is to be increased to about half a million tons per annum by next winter, a Lurgi plant is being built at Westfield, Scotland, and another is being considered for the Midlands. The House will also be aware that my noble Friend has recently appointed a committee under the chairmanship of Mr. A. H. Wilson, F.R.S., to review the possibilities of developing processes for the conversion of coal into chemicals, gas and oil.

Can the hon. Gentleman say when the Committee is likely to report and what degree of urgency has been given to its work?

The matter is certainly being treated urgently, but the Committee has only just been appointed and we must give it a chance.

I beg to move, in page 15, line 25, to leave out "under the same employer".

It seems to me that all the Amendments referred to in the recommittal Motion concern one point, and that it might be for the convenience of the Committee if they were all discussed together.

I was glad to hear you say, Sir Charles, that we might discuss all these Amendments together. No great principles are involved in the Amendments and they make no great changes. They are concerned with two administrative points which make the preservation of rights in relation to contracting out for two groups work smoothly and it would be very difficult to disentangle the two. The groups concerned may not be very numerous but at the same time this seems to be a worthwhile change and I hope that the Committee will support what we propose.

Where an employee in a contracted-out employment leaves that employment and no other arrangements are made for the satisfactory preservation of rights, the employer makes what is called a payment in lieu which, in simpler language, buys the employee into the State scheme at the maximum. We are concerned here with where the employee leaves one non-participating employment and enters another under the same employer or under a different employer with no long interval between the two. The second group with which we are concerned is closely related to the first; the case is that of a man who is concurrently in two non-participating employments, again under the same employer or under different employers.

If hon. Members will look at the Bill as drafted, they will see, in relation to the first group, that if the two nonparticipating employments—the first and the succeeding one—are under the same employer and there is no great interval of time between the two, they are treated for our purpose as continuing employment, and the same can follow in the case of employment under different employers provided that a payment passes from the first scheme to the second.

In practice, this may work hardly in a few cases. It may mean that some moves in the private sector and in the public sector, but particularly in the public sector, may be made difficult because the employers already have some arrangements on a knock-for-knock principle working and that by so doing they achieve the same results as we want to see but no payment passes exactly in the way provided under this subsection. This, in particular, operates in the case of teachers, who are, of course, a very important group, and the Bill as drafted may make it rather harder for teachers to move in and out of Scotland, for instance, than it will be if the Committee will accept the small Amendment that we propose.

Clause 9 (5) would, therefore, seem to be be better if worded less precisely, if instead of reference to a payment being made, the Minister were given regulation-making powers to cover this point. I do not think that it would be reasonable to suggest that he should now be able to say exactly what words he would like to use, because only in the light of experience shall we know what cases will emerge in this small group and exactly what we shall have to meet.

The Amendments to Clause 10 are consequential on what I have been explaining. If a question should arise of a recovery from a refund due to the employee at the time when his employer has to make a payment in lieu, the provision will now have to be extended to cover possible recovery from part of two separate refunds, in respect of the first employment and the second employment, which would not have happened if, instead of a knock-for-knock provision, we had seen a payment passing in the first place.

The second group with which we are concerned is those employees who are in two different employments concurrently under the same employer, two different contracted-out employments. Under the Bill a payment in lieu becomes payable when such an employee leaves either employment, and if he were in the course of his working life to leave both employments at one time or another, then two payments in lieu would come to be paid, and these would overlap or, in some circumstances, exactly cover the same period.

In these circumstances the man does not stand to gain; he cannot, because two payments in lieu if translated into terms of graduated benefit would carry him above the limit. The fund is, in fact, the gainer. Where the two employments are tinder different employers, neither is any more the loser than he would have been had the other employment not been a non-participating employment.

But where in the very rare cases it may happen that an employee is in two non-participating employments concurrently, and he leaves first one and then the other, the employer will be buying that man into the State scheme twice over for exactly the same period, and that would not seem to be fair. Therefore, we suggest a new subsection (5) to Clause 9 which widens the Minister's regulation-making powers so that he can spare an employer under these circumstances having to pay virtually twice over for exactly the same thing without the employee benefiting therefrom, because in any case he is being bought into the State scheme at the maximum, which is the simple test of equivalency in all cases.

I hope that the Committee will see that these proposals, rather complicated though they may be at first hearing, and although not of very large application, may in the end be important to two small groups whose needs we should like to meet.