asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what steps he is taking to consult with forestry interests in this country to ensure that suitable supplies of home-grown timber are available for road fencing, in furtherance of the Government's declared policy.

We are in consultation with the Forestry Commission and the Home Grown Timber Advisory Committee about a revised fencing specification for motorways in order to permit a wider choice of homegrown timber. The initiative in making suitable supplies of the timber available must, of course, rest with the forestry and timber interests themselves.

I thank my hon. Friend for that Answer. May we take it that it will as soon as practicable be the policy of the Ministry to give equal opportunities to home producers of timber to supply these fencing posts? In addition to the bodies which my hon. Friend is already consulting, will he also consult the Woodland Owners' Association, which is trying to organise the marketing of home-grown timber?

The answer to the first part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question is "Yes, Sir". Other things being equal, we should naturally wish to use home-grown timber. The answer to the second part of the supplementary question is that if the body which my hon. Friend mentioned wishes to have consultations with us, we shall be very pleased to do so.

Will the hon. Gentleman try to avoid what happened in Gloucestershire not so long ago where, in an area containing plenty of good oak timber, cement posts were used?

I regret that and will look into the circumstances.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what consideration he has given to methods of flooding roads with surface light by the use of trough fittings such as are used at airports; and what consultations he has had with the Research Laboratory of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research on this and other forms of flooding roads with surface light.

Trough fittings are used for street lighting where appropriate. There is close liaison between the Road Research Laboratory and our Department on street lighting matters.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that when the lighting was first installed in Southampton Row, London, to the admiration of visitors from all over the world, it resulted in large export orders? Will he give an undertaking that consideration will I be given to a similar innovation on the new motor roads?

We are not proposing to put street lighting on the new motorways, but I should certainly like to study the lighting arrangements in the road which the hon. Member mentioned.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he is aware of the increasing danger to children attending schools that are sited on trunk roads; and what action he proposes to take to minimise this peril.

Yes, Sir. The danger increases, of course, as the number of vehicles increases. Action is taken in schools by the provision of road safety training for the children, and on the road by such devices as warning signs, adult patrols, footpaths, guard rails, subways and footbridges. We are also getting under way a national training scheme for those children who cycle to school.

Is my hon. Friend satisfied that his Ministry has sufficient direct responsibility in this matter? Is not a great deal of the responsibility with the standing joint committees and education committees of county councils? Will he reconsider the matter, since there is likely to be an increasing danger to children as the rate of traffic increases and as trunk roads are improved?

This is a continuing anxiety for us and my right hon. Friend is quite right in saying that the danger will increase as we have more vehicles. But I do not think that it would be right to take it out of the hands of local authorities and local people on whom we must rely for effective road safety campaigns and the enforcement of road regulations.

As some such siting is inevitable, will the hon. Gentleman consider the provision of subways, since at least half the children involved will necessarily have to cross one of the main roads?

We do that where possible, but subways are very expensive to put under existing roads and we cannot always justify them. However, we always have that in mind as a possible solution in dense urban areas.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he will make a further statement on the working of the new regulations about white lines on main roads.

These regulations have been in force for less than a month and it is too early for us to make a further statement. First reports would seem to indicate that the system will make for greater safety and improved traffic flow.

Has the hon. Gentleman any information about the number of prosecutions which have taken place in infringement of the regulations up to now?

I have no information on that as yet.

Does the hon. Gentleman appreciate the need for being reasonably sparing in the use of these white lines, since there is a danger that there will not be uniformity in their use and that if they are used too much and for different hazards, and so on, they will not be nearly as effective?

Yes, I quite accept the hon. Gentleman's point. Our instructions are that they should not be put down when there is any doubt, or they will otherwise lose their value.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he will consider introducing, at suitable road junctions, the system whereby drivers may turn left, after first stopping, even when the traffic signals are red, provided priority is given to pedestrians, in view of the success of similar systems abroad.

We consider that filtration against the red light should not be allowed, except on a green arrow signal. In our opinion general filtration against the red light makes it impossible to give adequate protection to pedestrians.

Is my hon. Friend aware that this system works in some other countries? For instance, it is used in New York and Paris, except that the filter is to the right and not to the left, of course. In any case, will he expedite the use of the green filter in cases where he thinks it would work?

Yes, Sir. We always have that point under consideration. Where we can, we do use the green filter. But there are divided opinions about automatic filtering in other countries and it is by no means generally thought to be good.

Will the hon. Gentleman resist all attempts to introduce this method of filtering at road junctions? Are not conditions sufficiently bewildering already for pedestrians who already do not know when they may safely cross a road, even when traffic signals are against vehicles? Is he aware that if another complication is introduced, it will be quite beyond the comprehension of pedestrians, particularly elderly people, who often flounder about on crossings even when they think that it is safe to cross when the lights are against the traffic? Will he resist this suggestion as only adding to the dangers to pedestrians?

I think that on the whole it is best to make certain by not following this practice.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he will state the new revised approximate anticipated dates for the completion of the Hyde Park underpass, the Great West Road fly-over at Chiswick, and the fly-over at the Ace of Spades on the Kingston by-pass.

The London County Council is aiming to complete the underpass at Hyde Park Corner by about the middle of 1962; the Chiswick fly-over should be in use in the autumn of this year and the Hook Road underpass on the Kingston by-pass should be completed by early next year.

Is not this all terribly slow? Is not it also rather depressing to see the slow way in which the work is progressing on a five-day week basis? Cannot we have work done at night and have a real sense of urgency about the road programme?

No, Sir. It is a most complex business to keep these very busy road junctions going at the same time as road works are carried out. It is possible to do the work at weekends and by overtime in special cases, but that would naturally increase the cost and would reduce the total volume of work that we can do. We think we get better value this way.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what progress he has to report on the construction of the new motorway from London to Yorkshire.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation (1) when he expects the London-Yorkshire motor road to be completed;

We expect that the carriageways of the London-Birmingham motorway, which is the first section of the London-Yorkshire motorway, will be completed by the end of October. As far as the extension to Yorkshire is concerned, I cannot yet add to my right hon. Friend's reply on 13th May to the hon. Member for Leicester, North-West (Mr. Janner).

In respect of Yorkshire, does the Minister appreciate that his Ministry appears to be progressing backwards? In the first place, it was proposed that there should be a new road through the West Riding, to be linked with the new London-Yorkshire motorway. I understand that that has been dropped from the Minister's scheme. Now we have a serious setback with the London-Yorkshire motorway. Can the Minister state a specific date by which time some progress will be made from Birmingham onwards, either by the original or by some alternative route?

First, we have to decide what will be the line of the motorway and, as the House knows, we have had great difficulty in fixing the line through Leicestershire. Until that is done it is quite impossible to take a view as to when the work may start, but we are proceeding as fast as we can in order to try to decide where that line should be.

Does not the Minister agree that this delay is causing great consternation in the West Riding? Does he realise that it is no use talking about 100 m.p.h. motorways when we have a 5 m.p.h. Administration? Will he consider routeing the London-Yorkshire motorway through the western part of the Charnwood Forest? If the Government will accept that route a commencement could be made during the coming November.

It could not, because we have many statutory obligations to fulfil before that. The western route through the Charnwood Forest, as I have said previously, has grave objections in regard to its alignment both vertically and horizontally, and also because of the extra cost involved over other routes. For those reasons, I am afraid that I cannot encourage the hon. Member to think that his suggestion can be regarded as an easy solution.

Will the Minister knock the heads of the local authorities of Leicestershire together and, if they cannot come to an agreement, make the decision himself in order that the North shall not be deprived of the advantages of having a motorway?

My hon. and gallant Friend has already derived some advantage from the improvement in the Great North Road.

On a point of order. In view of the Minister's very unsatisfactory reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter at the earliest opportunity on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation (1) if he will inquire into the practicability by tunnelling and road surface heating of rebuilding the trunk road, A.6, over Shap to motorway standards, and so connecting Penrith to the northern end of the Birmingham-Lancaster motorway;

My right hon. Friend is proceeding with his consideration of a motorway extension from the Lancaster by-pass to Penrith. All the various possibilities, including relative costs and the effect on amenities, will be taken into account.

When the Minister has given this matter his full consideration will he make a long and full statement on the subject, as there is great concern among many people in the North at the suggestion that this motorway should go up through the Lune Valley rather than that the Shap Road should be developed into a motorway?

I shall certainly take note of the hon. Member's statement and, in due course, when the review has been completed—and it will take some time—we will make a statement about it.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he will include representatives of the Royal Institute of British Architects in his planning teams for the new motorways.

For the national motorways, my right hon. Friend already has the benefit of the expert advice of the Advisory Committee on the Landscape Treatment of Trunk Roads, some of whose members are architects. The Royal Fine Art Commission is also consulted about the principal architectural features of these roads, and consultant architects are appointed to collaborate in the design of the major bridges. These arrangements work well, and I do not think that anything further is required.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, although the planning of new motorways is primarily a matter for the road and traffic engineer, the architect has a contribution to make in regard to the preservation of urban and rural amenities, good design and general planning? Will he give further consideration to the request of architects that representatives should be appointed on the various urban motorway planning groups?

I agree with the hon. Member that we should have full regard to the preservation of amenities, and when hon. Members and the whole community see the new motorway to Birmingham I think that they will agree that we have been successful in that. We have two architects on the Advisory Committee on the Landscape Treatment of Trunk Roads, and I think that we have fully taken account of just those considerations mentioned by the hon. Gentleman.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what progress he has made in the preparation of plans for designating certain roads as throughways in London and other cities; how soon he anticipates being able to make such plans operative; and if he will make a statement.

We are planning to start the first clearway experiment later this summer on selected lengths of trunk road in country areas. If it is successful, we shall seek the advice of the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee on extending the experiment to the London Traffic Area. In other cities the responsibility for making the appropriate Orders would rest with the local authorities.

Is the Minister aware that the great virtue of this proposal is that it recognises that the highways are intended for vehicles to move on and not just to stand still on? As in traffic matters it is not possible to please all the people all the time, may I ask the Minister not to be dissuaded by the loud cries of protest which this experiment may evoke?

On the whole, it has had a rather good reception.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation the total number of licensed private motor cars in Wales at the latest convenient date; the numbers in 1949 and in 1939, respectively; and the estimate of the total number which will be licensed in Wales in 1969.

The number of motor cars licensed in Wales and Monmouthshire in the September quarter of 1958 was 221,669. The corresponding figures for 1938—figures for 1939 are not available—and for 1949 were 81,320 and 98,972 respectively. On the assumption that this rate of increase continues there will be about 370,000 by 1969.

Will the hon. Gentleman be more generous with road grants to enable these cars to move?

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation how many mechanically propelled vehicles of all kinds and all descriptions were licensed in Wales at the latest convenient date; the numbers in 1949 and in 1939, respectively; and his estimate of the number which will be licensed in Wales in 1969.

The number of motor vehicles licensed in Wales and Monmouthshire in the September quarter of 1958 was 384,842. The corresponding figures for 1938—figures for 1939 are not available—and for 1949 were 133,542 and 199,904 respectively. On the assumption that this rate of increase continues there will be about 600,000 by 1969.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the opinion is held in Wales and expressed frequently in the Press and elsewhere that the Government road programme is not sufficiently ambitious to deal with this great increase in the number of vehicles, and that the opinion also seems to be held that the share of the present programme which is accruing to Wales is inadequate? Will my hon. Friend comment on these opinions?

I think that that portion of our road programme which is going to Wales is certainly a fair one on the whole, particularly in South Wales, and my belief is that our road programme will substantially provide for these large numbers of vehicles.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he will inquire into the practicability of taxing motor vehicles in such a way as to take account of the noise they cause.

I am afraid that the taxation of motor vehicles on a noise basis is not a practical proposition.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that I am not suggesting the comparison of a very noisy motor cycle with a relatively silent Rolls-Royce? I am suggesting that there should be a financial incentive to manufacturers and users of very noisy vehicles, such as motor cycles, to make less noise and to have the machines designed in that way.

I do not disagree with the thought behind the hon. Gentleman's suggestion, but it would be difficult to make progress in that way. I think that we must content ourselves by trying to make progress with more effective regulations about noise—and I think that there is a later Question about that—and enforcement.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation (1) what progress has been made in the study of the means by which the noise of motor vehicles can be reduced;

Our Department and the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research are at present studying the best means of measuring noise from motor vehicles. This study includes ambient noise from buildings and so on. I cannot yet say when the results of the study will be available.

I am very glad about the Minister's agreement with the manufacturers of motor cycles, but can the hon. Gentleman tell us whether the manufacturers will abandon their policy of making motor cycles deliberately and unnecessarily noisy so that they might please the local "milk bar cowboys" who ride these machines to give them a sense of power? Further, can the hon. Gentleman say whether the tests will distinguish between the noise of a heavy, rather powerful bus engine, and the staccato noise of a very much lower powered engine such as that of a motor cycle?

The hon. Gentleman has asked a supplementary question which really pinpoints the difficulty of measuring noise. The nuisance of noise does not depend entirely on volume, but on the kind or tone of the noise. To date nobody has found any means of defining that. With regard to the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, the manufacturers of both motor cycles and motor cars are very co-operative and anxious to bring their machines down to a reasonable noise level. Most of the trouble of noise is caused by those who buy these machines and remove most of the silencing equipment.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he is aware of the long waiting list for driving tests in Gainsborough; and if he will arrange for the number of days his examiners test in Gainsborough to be increased.

Yes, Sir. We are at present recruiting additional examiners, and when they are available we intend to arrange for more tests to be carried out at Gainsborough.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he will appoint a member of the Women's Institute to the committee which is to inquire into the problems of rural transport services; and if the committee will be authorised to examine the working and finance of the post omnibus services in Switzerland and elsewhere.

The membership of the committee is not yet settled, but I will bear in mind my hon. Friend's suggestion. As regards the second part of the Question, its terms of reference are wide enough to include such a study if it wishes.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation to what extent the committee to inquire into the problem of rural omnibus services will be able to include inquiries into services in Scotland; how many Scottish members there will be on the committee; and what are their names.

It is our intention that the committee should cover Scotland as well as England and Wales, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland is being consulted about representation.

Will my hon. Friend allow the committee to visit parts of Scotland, because the problem is different in different parts of the country and the only way to get a proper solution will be for the committee to take a regional view of it?

I accept that the problem differs in one part of the country compared with another, and the committee will be quite free to go to any part it wishes.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he will now take steps to publicise the value of safety belts and harness in preventing injuries from car accidents.

The British Standards Institution is actively pursuing the framing of a standard specification for seat belts and harness; pending its adoption it would be premature to undertake a public campaign to encourage their use.

That may be so. Is the the Joint Parliamentary Secretary aware that Cornell University initiated a research study into this matter and found that no less than 60 per cent. of the injuries resulting from car accidents could be avoided if seat harness and belts were generally adopted? In view of that very striking figure, will he take the earliest opportunity, as soon as the work of the Institution is completed, to publicise this fact and to embody it in all road safety campaigns?

Yes, Sir, certainly. I accept that if all drivers and passengers wore harness which was fully effective, it would save a large number of injuries. But to achieve this the harness must be fully effective both in itself and in its attachments and it must be univer- sally used. As soon as we have standards we will give the matter the fullest possible publicity.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation the principal reasons which account for the fact that 456 persons were killed in road accidents during April, 1959, compared with 416 in April, 1958.

The increase in fatal accidents in April, 1959, compared with April, 1958, was mainly in respect of pedestrians and cyclists. It is difficult to draw general conclusions from a period as short as a month.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary take note of the fact that whereas the road traffic has increased during the months in question by 4 per cent. the number of people killed or injured is three or four times as great? When is something to be done to prevent this dismal progress whereby the number of casualties increases to a far greater extent than the amount of road traffic would justify?

I accept that there was an increase of only 4 per cent. in the amount of traffic but I would point out that in the first four months of 1959 the number of fatalities showed a reduction compared with 1958. The periods are too short to show the general trend. It would be wrong to leave the impression that there is not a great deal being done to promote the cause of road safety and to make the roads safer. But it is most important that we should make the public aware of its responsibilities. We can do our part, but we need the cooperation of drivers and pedestrians.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what progress has been made in staggering hours of work in Central London.

The London Travel Committee has set up a special working group to promote the wider adoption of staggered hours. The group has continued the valuable work of the "Crush Hour" Committee and is at present completing a survey of starting and finishing times of some 500,000 workers in Central London to show where staggering may be most needed and most likely to be fruitful.

Would not the Joint Parliamentary-Secretary agree that we have far too many committees which are not achieving very much? Has the Minister tried in recent weeks to cross Central London during the rush hour? Will he accept my suggestion that all this talk about the alleged staggering of hours has not made a ha'porth of difference?

It has made some difference, but it is a difficult matter to alter the pattern of life of a large number of people. I am sure that the suggestion that we should legislate to deal with the matter, which the hon. Gentleman has made before, is wrong. We must get co-operation, and I hope that we shall get it in this way.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he will arrange for some local men or women to be trained as driving testers in Orkney and Shetland.

Driving and traffic examiners arc selected for appointment through open competitions by the Civil Service Commissioners. If any candidate from Orkney or Shetland is found suitable for appointment we will certainly consider him for any vacancies in the North of Scotland.

Does not the hon. Gentleman think that the present situation in which people have to wait sometimes ten months for a test is both extremely inconvenient for local people and expensive because of the need to send up testers? Could not he consult the police and local authorities to see whether some special arrangement could be made?

As I said last week, I think that our arrangements for the future will be better when we have recruited new examiners, or rather when we have in post the new examiners whom we are in process of recruiting.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if, in view of the growth in the number of goods vehicles on the roads and the anticipated further increase, he will increase the number of officers engaged full-time on enforcement of the provisions of the Road Traffic Acts relating to goods vehicles and public service vehicles.

The complement of full-time traffic examiners for enforcement is 100, of whom 95 are in post. In addition 17 driving and traffic examiners are now engaged on enforcement work. This number will be increased to 50 as soon as possible.

Does the hon. Gentleman recall that he has always given the undertaking that there will be an increase, and that the increase does not take place to any extent? Does he also recall that when I last raised this matter he said that the number of offences was increasing in proportion to the number of vehicles on the road? Does the hon. Gentleman still believe that the staff of 100 enforcement officers is sufficient to cope with those offences?

I do not agree that there is an increase.

Does the hon. Gentleman take the view that motoring offences are inclined to increase in proportion to the number of traffic police?

No. I think the reverse is the case.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what conclusions have been reached by the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee as a result of the study it undertook to make of traffic conditions at those sites where a ban on loading and unloading was postponed until experience had been gained of the extension of the hours during which a "no-waiting" ban was in operation; and whether it is now proposed to impose such a ban.

The Advisory Committee has not yet completed its further study of conditions at the twenty-three sites where loading bans were proposed. It is at present considering whether practical trials may be necessary, and we hope to have its advice on this point within the next few weeks.

As it is now twelve months since the hours of "no-waiting" were extended to start at 8.30 a.m., and since the position has not improved so far as loading and unloading is concerned—one often comes across double parking in central London—will the Minister take steps to increase the ban on loading and unloading?

I certainly think this is a matter which must be pursued. We have been investigating it. The reason for rejecting the proposal before us was that there was not sufficient information to justify the action involved. There have been inquiries by the police and the divisional road engineer. The outcome of them is the consideration which I have mentioned. I hope that we shall have something definite to go on quite soon.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he will move to appoint a Select Committee, or set up a Departmental Committee, to investigate and report on the need to modernise the Manchester Ship Canal with special reference to finance, the need to cater for larger and modern ships, new locks, lighting, port facilities, new quays at Barton Docks Estate, and other places, and the need to link up the Ship Canal with the large industrial area in a modern form.

These are matters for the Manchester Ship Canal Company and I see no grounds for such a committee.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that some of us were employed on dieselisation and electrification equipment for railways all over the world, continuing at that work for years while seeing our own railways become out of date? Will he stand idly by and allow that sort of thing to happen to undertakings like the Manchester Ship Canal?

No, Sir. It would not happen with the Manchester Ship Canal at all. Since the Canal was first instituted, some £27 million have been spent on its development, including £13 million spent since the war. We work fairly closely with the company, and our information is that the company is using every opportunity it can find to modernise and re-equip the port wherever it can. As I said in the Answer, we see no reason to have an inquiry as the hon. Member suggests.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether in view of the announcement by the Cunard Company of their proposals for the replacement of the "Queen Mary" he will give an assurance that no commitments for a subsidy will be entered into before the terms have been announced to Parliament.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if, before making a final decision about financial aid to the Cunard company for the building of any new vessel, he will make a statement to the House about the proposed terms on which such financial aid is given.

Any financial assistance which the Government might decide to give to the Cunard Company would require legislation and this would obviously have to come before the House. But I must emphasise that no decision has been taken on what form any such assistance might take or whether it should be given.

While thanking my hon. Friend for that very satisfactory reply, may I ask him to bear in mind, so that it may be on the record, that in my view the country could not stand too much money being tied up on one river?

I will take the fullest account of the views of my hon. Friend.

I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary will be aware that my hon. Friends will also be pleased to hear that the terms under which financial assistance will be given to this company will be announced to the House. In view of the request made, can the Parliamentary Secretary say why the Institute of Directors has been so agitated at the Labour Party's proposal to give financial assistance to certain companies?

I do not answer for the Institute of Directors.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether in view of the periodical breakdown of the Howden-Jarrow ferry, he will order an inquiry into the facilities available for cross-river communications in order to maintain regular work on the River Tyne.

I am aware that inconvenience has been caused from time to time by the withdrawal of the ferry boat for various reasons. Alternative routes for cars are of course available and pedestrians and cyclists can use the existing tunnel. In our view the real answer to this problem is the building of the new tunnel; in the meantime I am getting into touch with the two county councils concerned to consider what can be done to keep the ferry in satisfactory service during the intervening period.

While thanking the Joint Parliamentary Secretary for his Answer about this ridiculous old ferry, may I ask him to be so kind as to say that a shot in the arm is coming to the responsible authorities in order that frustration and irritation on Tyneside may be relieved?

I will not say whose arm is to have the shot in it, but I will do my best about it.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation why a copy of his letter to Captain Thain dated 12th March, 1959, was sent by his Department to the pilot's employers.

Because the matter was one of direct concern to British European Airways the Corporation was told informally of the action my right hon. Friend had in mind about the renewal of Captain Thain's licence and in confirmation a copy of his letter of 12th March, 1959, was sent to it.

Does not my hon. Friend agree that a pilot's licence is a matter of direct concern between the pilot and the Minister? Will he make inquiries to confirm views, subsequent to those of the Minister a few weeks ago, that this would not prejudice the pilot's case? The public does not agree with that view and will he take the public attitude as a guide to his future conduct in such matters?

My hon. Friend perhaps forgets for the moment that the Minister is responsible for the air Corporations, including British European Airways, who are obviously extremely concerned with the findings of this Report. As my hon. Friend will also know, we are setting up a special reviewing body, about which there is a later Question, to look into all the representations which Captain Thain has made.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that he is quite wrong in introducing the Department into the matter as, as he put it, a part employer through the Corporations? The question of certification of a pilot is a direct relationship between the pilot himself and the Department. Although it is of concern to the Corporation as to whether a pilot holds a certificate, any doubts which the Department may have in the meantime are not matters which should concern the Corporation.

That may well be so, but, as I said in reply to my hon. Friend, my right hon. Friend felt that here was a particularly important matter to be brought to the attention of the Corporations. We are looking into the whole thing and I hope that the outcome will be satisfactory.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he has yet been informed whether the German inquiry into the Munich air crash will he reopened.

No, Sir; but I hope to know within a few weeks.

Will my hon. Friend announce the action he is taking about a later Question, or does he maintain his point of view that he will await the report of the reviewing body?

I am not quite clear about the rule on anticipation of Questions. As I said earlier, there is a later Question on the Order Paper and I think that my hon. Friend had better await the Answer to that.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation why the Dundee Union of Boys' Clubs has been charged £7 19s. 6d. for the expenses of the attendance of one of his officials at a fund-raising event for charity at Errol Aerodrome on 17th August, 1958, when on a previous occasion £1 17s. 9d. was charged.

On the earlier occasion our representative, who was stationed at Dyce, used his own private car for the journey but generously restricted his mileage claim to a rate of only 2d. a mile. On 17th August, 1958, official transport, costing substantially more per mile, had to be used and the charge made was that necessary to defray the expenses falling on public funds on that occasion, namely the regulation mileage rate for the distance involved together with the normal subsistence allowance.

Is the Joint Parliamentary Secetary aware that the original charge was more than twice the present charge and that this was reduced only after my representations? Is he aware that the present unsatisfactory reduction is a charge for a little local journey that would have paid for a return fare for this official from Dundee to London.

No, Sir. I suggest that the hon. Gentleman is quite wrong. The position is that we calculated the original charge on a mileage rate which was subsequently found to be not the one appropriate to this particular journey. As a result, the figure was reduced. The hon. Gentleman knows that this was not a little local journey. I understand that Errol is about half-way between Turn-house and Dyce aerodromes and some 90 miles by road from Dyce. This was not a journey that could be done as simply as the hon. Gentleman suggests.

On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation to what extent he now expects to meet the recommendation of the Select Committee on Estimates in Session 1955–56 that trading accounts be produced for his Department's aerodromes; when he expects to make such information available; and if he will make a statement.

Accounts for the year 1958–59 are in course of preparation which will show separately the trading results of the Ministry's three principal aerodromes and a consolidated figure for the others. It is hoped that these accounts will be submitted to the Comptroller and Auditor-General in the early autumn.

Can the Joint Parliamentary Secretary say that the information given in these accounts goes all the way to meet the recommendations of the Select Committee?

I think I can say that we are going as far as possible to meet the request made by the Committee.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if, in view of the technical developments in the operation of aerodromes since the war, and of the increasing tendency to administer them on a commercial basis, he is satisfied that the present managerial structure and general policy on personnel recruitment and promotion is best suited to present needs; and if he will consider the appointment of an appropriate independent committee to study and make recommendations on these matters.

My right hon. Friend considers that there is scope for variety in this matter. Wherever it seems appropriate, he is encouraging local authorities to take over the management of local aerodromes. In other cases where it seems best that aerodromes remain under State control, his policy is to keep the managerial and staffing structure under constant review and to adapt it to the changing needs, including the commercial needs, of the current situation. He sees no difficulty in achieving this policy within the existing departmental framework. The answer to the last part of the Question is, therefore, "No, Sir".

Is the Parliamentary Secretary satisfied that the changes which have taken place so far have met the changed character and size of the problem of administering an airport like London Airport? As an illustration of the sort of thing I have in mind, may I ask whether he is satisfied that technical people recruited for, say, air traffic control, can under the present set-up, work their way through to the top? Or is the position that executive heads come only from the Ministry?

I think that the arrangement, which is admittedly to some extent experimental, is working extremely well. In these days it is not easy to manage these enormous complexes which ate modern airports, but I think that we are having some degree of success. As I said in my Answer, we shall have to be guided by our experience.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he will now state the composition and terms of reference of the independent body being set up to review Captain Thain's representations about the Munich air crash.

My right hon. Friend has now arranged that the independent review into representations by Captain Thain shall be conducted by Mr. E. S. Fay, Q.C., Chairman, Professor A. R. Collar, and Captain R. P. Wigley, Assessors. Since the terms of reference are rather long, I will, with permission, circulate them in the Official Report. The date for the hearing will be arranged by the Chairman of the reviewing body after consulting Captain Thain and his representatives.

Is this investigation taking place under any statutory regulation or rule, or is it on an ad hoc basis of officials and witnesses? Secondly, will the proceedings be public and the report published?

I am advised that these are ad hoc proceedings which have been instituted in this rather difficult case. In regard to the second part of the question, we feel that this is a matter for the reviewing body itself to consider, after hearing the views of Captain Thain and his representatives.

The hon. Gentleman did not say whether the report would be published, but will he give us an assurance that Captain Thain will be able to call all the evidence he wishes?

He will, of course, be able to call any witnesses and put forward his views. As to the publication of the report, I am afraid I should need notice of that question. We shall give every consideration to the question of publication.

When the hon. Gentleman is considering the form of the inquiry, will he keep in touch with the British Air Line Pilots' Association?

Yes. We keep in touch with that body and bear in mind the representations it made at a very early stage.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what official view has been expressed to him as a result of the British Transport Commission's reconsideration of its pension supplement scheme; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he will give an assurance that no additional financial resources will be made available to the British Transport Commission which do not include some financial provision out of which pensions increases on the same basis as that made to Crown servants can be paid to railway superannuitants.

The Commission has reviewed the matter very carefully and has reluctantly come to the conclusion that because of its present financial situation it cannot incur any additional expenditure for improving pension supplements. Superannuation arrangements are matters which we must regard as the responsibility of the British Transport Commission. In view of its statutory financial obligations we must have regard to what in its judgment it can afford to do.

Is my hon. Friend aware that many of the railway superannuitants for whom I am pressing for a pension increase are old employees of the Harwich to the Continent steamship service who served well in the past, as their successors are doing now? Would not my hon. Friend agree that failure to award an increase in pension to those who contributed towards it cannot but be detrimental to the long-term efficiency of the transport services?

I am only sorry that we cannot help more.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that I think nothing of industrialists, whether in nationalised or private industries, who do not do the right thing by old loyal servants? Will he also bear in mind that I personally would much prefer to pay to our old railway servants some of the money which is going to the cotton industry?

I think Sir Brian Robertson is no less conscious than my hon. Friend of the humanitarian considerations, but he has his statutory responsibility to discharge, and that he is trying to do.

Does not the Parliamentary Secretary agree that the Commission is acting meanly in this respect? Does he realise that what is happening is that pensioners are in effect subsidising the British Transport Commission? The British Transport Commission is being heavily subsidised at the present time and here one particular section of ex-employees is being asked to carry the burden also.

The British Transport Commission has a statutory responsibility to make its accounts balance, taking one year with another. The estimated deficit is now between £80 million and £90 million a year, and clearly the Commission's first obligation is to bring its accounts into balance before it can do something which is quite outside its statutory responsibility.

The Commission wastes a lot of money.

Is it not shortsighted policy to reward the loyalty of old servants by treating them so meanly?

I cannot accept that they are being treated meanly. The Commission would like to increase pensions if it could, but it has not the means for doing so.

In the view of the general public, not to speak of the superannuitants, these people are former State employees although they may not be so in a technical sense. Will the Parliamentary Secretary bear in mind that it does not speak well of the State if, when economies have to be made in a nationalised industry, a lot of the burden falls on former servants who did good service when the railways were in private hands?

I am aware of that and have been told about it before by hon. Members. I am sorry that it is not within the means of the Commission to help these people at present.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment at an early opportunity.

I appreciate that Question No. 25 has been answered, but may I ask another supplementary question?

No. The hon. Lady asked a supplementary question at the time.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation when the Report and Accounts of the British Transport Commission and the report on the reassessment of its modernisation programme will be published.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he has yet studied the reassessment of the financial prospects of the railways announced by the Chairman of the British Transport Commission.

The Report and Accounts will be published towards the end of this month. We have not yet received the Commission's reappraisal of the railways' modernisation plan and financial prospects, but I understand it should be ready in the next few weeks.

Can the Minister state what form the report and reappraisal will take? Will it also contain the Government's views, as was the case when the proposals with regard to the railways were presented to the House? Further, can the hon. Gentleman give an assurance that there will be an opportunity for debate before any final decisions are taken, following the publication of the reappraisal, in view of the possibility of further cuts in services?

We have not yet seen the reappraisal, so I am not able to say in what form it will be published. I cannot say more today than that it will be published as soon as possible, in order to meet the convenience of the House. As for the second part of the supplementary question, I have taken note of the point that the House would wish to have a chance to debate the report—I assume it would like to do so before we rise for the Summer Recess—and we will endeavour to meet that timetable.

In view of the obvious undesirability of frequent changes in the modernisation programme, can the hon. Gentleman give an assurance that there is no truth in the categorical statement in the Sunday Times that it is the Government's intention now to rephase that programme, and also the categorical statement in that newspaper that the Government propose to carry out an overall slimming process in the railway organisation, and to sell off the more profitable activities of the Commission to private interests?

At the present time we are not contemplating any of those steps. Naturally we wish to see the Commission's reappraisal before forming any view of what should be done further in regard to the existing modernisation plan.

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation, what general directions he has given to the British Transport Commission regarding the closure of wagon building and repair shops in various parts of the country.

None, Sir. This is a matter of management and therefore the responsibility of the British Transport Commission.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the uneasy feeling which is apparent in places like York, Doncaster and Shildon? Can he inform the House whether there is a likelihood of this work being farmed out to private contractors?

I am well aware of the uneasy feeling, and hon. Members have made representations to my right hon. Friend and myself; but I can also tell the House that representations have been made from the other side, on behalf of private employers, who, unfortunately, must also find their activities cut down. I can reassure the hon. Member that in the reductions which are inevitably part of its modernisation programme—including such things as the manufacture of wooden wagons and their repair which, naturally, must disappear altogether—the Commission is being as fair as possible regarding its own workshops and those of private suppliers.

Will the Joint Parliamentary Secretary bear in mind that what he has just said will tend to unsettle even more railway workers who are affected by the situation? Will he please bear in mind the desirability of allowing many thousands of railway workers to know exactly what is to happen in the future? At the moment they are in complete ignorance and are apprehensive about the future. Is it not time that something was done to tell them what are the future plans?

The Commission is in close consultation with the unions on this matter. They have settled what I believe to be satisfactory arrangements regarding redundancy, and I think there is full consultation.

Will the Minister bear in mind that Scotland has a long history of wagon building and repair? Will he ensure that in the developments now taking place Scotland is not stripped of one of her industries connected with wagon building and repairing?

I am sure that the Commission will also pay attention to that point.

asked the Minister of Defence (1) the present strength in numbers of the West German forces available to the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, giving the number for each arm respectively;

I am afraid I am not free to publish information obtained from N.A.T.O. about the armed forces of other countries.

What is the reason for this secrecy? In view of the optimistic and glowing statement about the strength of the N.A.T.O. forces made recently by the Supreme Commander and others associated with N.A.T.O., is not it desirable that the public should be informed whether this statement is correct? Will the West German forces be armed with atomic weapons? What contribution have the French Government made to N.A.T.O.? Are they making any contribution in regard to any of the Services at the present time?

The right hon. Gentleman has asked me rather a mouthful. On secrecy, it is just a matter of normal practice in order that when confidential information about the size of forces is communicated to N.A.T.O. by a country, and circulated by N.A.T.O. to other Governments concerned, the information shall not be broadcast.

How are we to get this information, in view of the optimistic statements that have been made? Is N.A.T.O. strong or is it weak? What is the position? It is no use the right hon. Gentleman attending functions at the Guildhall, and similar functions, and making optimistic and glowing statements about the strength of N.A.T.O. when in fact he is not prepared to substantiate them.

I remember that when the right hon. Gentleman was Minister of Defence I tried to get very similar information from him and quite unsuccessfully.

In view of the fact that we are told in this House about the strength of our Armed Forces and are also told that the strength of N.A.T.O. is supposed to be part of the strength of Great Britain, how can we know what the strength of our own country is if we do not know what the strength of N.A.T.O. is?

It is the right hon. Gentleman who does not know.

With all respect to that schoolboyish reply, perhaps now we can have a serious answer. Is it not a fact that we have been told that the defence of this country and the defences of any of the N.A.T.O. countries are interdependent, one upon the other? If each one knows what its own defensive strength is but is not told the defence strength of the others, how can we assume that our own defence is strong?

I do not think that we have ourselves published the precise information asked for by the right hon. Gentleman?

The Estimates?

The Army is easy, but what the right hon. Gentleman asks for is the strength of the West German forces available to the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. That is not an easy sum in actual fact to make out. Some forces are actually assigned and others are assigned in time of war. It is not a straightforward piece of arithmetic.

The right hon. Gentleman does not know.

I could give the right hon. Gentleman a very long explanation of the position but I could not give him one figure, because that is not possible.

What are the secrecy rules? Who are the people who are allowed to give this information? General Norstad and various people give us detailed information. The Bundestag is given this information. Of course, there have to be things on the secret list, but since all these people come over from N.A.T.O. to lecture us about these matters, why cannot the House of Commons be told?

I think I have already answered that supplementary question

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that from time to time in this House we are asked in Committee to provide Supply for the forces contributed to N.A.T.O.? In view of that, cannot we have some information as to the numbers and strength? Is he aware that when I was Minister of Defence I was asked about N.A.T.O. and I stated in this House that we intended to provide four divisions in addition to the fact that we were preparing twelve territorial divisions at that time? Why should not the right hon. Gentleman give the information when undoubtedly the figures are different?

The right hon. Member does not ask about British forces, but the forces of everybody else. As to the British forces, it has been said over and over again what the Army position is. As to the Navy and the Air Force, it is more difficult because the Navy as a whole is available to N.A.T.O. in the event of war, but it is a little unrealistic to say that vessels at Singapore are really usefully available to N.A.T.O. Therefore, I should not like to give a figure in that kind of way.