asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food who represented the British Government at the recent International Veterinary Congress in Madrid; what were the main subjects discussed; and what were the main conclusions.

The official o British delegation consisted of seven eminent figures in the veterinary sphere, led by my Ministry's Chief Veterinary Officer, Mr. J. N. Ritchie. I am sending my hon. Friend a list of the 43 main papers discussed at the Congress, together with a copy of the resolutions.

Now that we are mastering tuberculosis in cattle in this country, can my hon. Friend say what diseases were discussed at Madrid? Were, in fact, Johne's disease, staggers, fowl pest and so on discussed, and what progress has been made in tackling these diseases?

A very comprehensive list of diseases was discussed. I would ask my hon. Friend to study the list which I am sending him, and if there are any particular ones on which he wishes further information, I shall be happy to try to supply it.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he is aware that land returned to farmers at Goose Green, Wigan, after opencast operations, is still unfit for use; and what further action he proposes to take in this matter.

My right hon. Friend recognises the difficult problems which the farmers of this land have to face. As he has explained in correspondence with the hon. Member, the recovery of the normal structure of the soil is a gradual process and there are no quick remedies. I am asking my advisory officers to continue to give their special attention to the problems of the farmers of this land.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that this land could be aptly described as being in a general mess and that the drainage system has proved itself to be completely inadequate, whether due to structural faults or bad planning, I do not know? Most of the land is not yielding any produce; a little of it is. When is the Parliamentary Secretary going to take some action to sort out this matter?

I realise that there are very definite difficulties here, and, of course, the last wet season has aggravated them. At the same time, it is not an easy matter to solve. As I say, my local officials are keeping in the closest touch with the farmers concerned, but, as I tried to indicate in my reply, this will take some time to overcome.

In the meantime, as the local farmers' expenditure on cultivation and so forth shows no return, are they being adequately compensated?

They did, of course, re-receive compensation, but I cannot add anything to the reply given on 19th February last dealing with that point.

On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I shall, with your permission, Mr. Speaker, seek leave to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what steps he is taking to study the probable effects of the proposed nuclear power stations on the banks of the lower reaches of the River Severn on existing fishing rights; and, in particular, whether he is satisfied that it is possible adequately to screen the cold water intake of these power stations so as to prevent the entry and destruction of immature migratory fish.

My Department is investigating the problems associated with both intake and discharge of cooling water from nuclear power stations. Special studies of the proposed stations on the Severn estuary will be undertaken when detailed plans are available. It is expected that it will be possible adequately to screen the cold water intake to prevent the entry and destruction of fish.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when it is proposed to fill the post of Agriculture and Food Attaché at Washington, which has been vacant since October last.

The general duties of the attaché post are being performed by the staff of Her Majesty's Embassy in Washington for a trial period, but the technical agricultural work continues to be carried out by the assistant attaché who is an experienced officer of the National Agricultural Advisory Service.

Do my hon. Friend and his Department recognise that the previous Agriculturé and Food Attaches and their assistants have performed a most useful function as a full-time job and it would be a great pity if this direct link between our agricultural interests and those of the United States were allowed to fall out?

I agree that we must not allow the contact to fall out, but, as I have indicated, the assistant attaché, who deals with the technical side, is fully capable and the present arrangement is for a trial period.

Did such a problem exist before the war? If not, what are the particular circumstances which necessitate such an arrangement in the post-war period?

I should have to ask for notice as to the pre-war position.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how many outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease in the past year have been attributed to infection brought by chilled and frozen meat from South America; and what has been the cost of compensation for the stock slaughtered.

In the period June, 1958, to May, 1959, inclusive, there have been eight primary outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease of which five have been attributed to the introduction of infection with meat from South America. In the same period the cost of compensation for stock slaughtered in the out-breaks both primary and secondary, that have been attributed to infection from imported meat amounted to about £34,500.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he has now considered the report of the mission sent by the Food and Agriculture Organisation to South America last year to study the foot-and-mouth disease situation there and its influence on the spread of disease in Europe through imports of meat; and what action is being taken on the mission's recommendations.

This comprehensive report has been endorsed by the European Commission for the Control of Foot-and-Mouth Disease and will be further considered at the next conference of F.A.O. I hope that if these recommendations and any further suggestions made by the F.A.O. are adopted, the situation may improve. Her Majesty's Government are already in consultation with the Governments in South America, in particular, to see how the resources of the Pan-American Foot-and-Mouth Disease Centre can be increased as suggested in the report.

In the light of the findings of this mission and the not altogether satisfactory conclusions reached about sanitary and hygienic arrangements in dealing with cattle coming here in the form of chilled meat, will the Department keep a close watch on this matter through veterinary surgeons in Buenos Aires, particularly to ensure that cattle in movement are in clean trucks and full vaccination takes place in the Argentine?

We are well aware of the points raised by my hon. Friend and will bear them in mind.

Are we assisting provision of supplies of vaccine to areas where there is a shortage?

We are willing to consider suggestions about that at any time.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, (1) whether he is aware that growers and greengrocers, in addition to the shopping public, are disturbed at the fluctuating prices of vegetables and salad immediately prior to each holiday weekend; and if he will convene a conference under the auspices of his Department, at which growers, wholesalers, and greengrocers, could answer questions from representative shoppers;

With permission, I will answer this Question and Questions Nos. 12 and 13 together.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I do not wish to be troublesome, but although Questions Nos. 11 and 12 are connected, No. 13 is not. May I have that Question answered separately?

As I have said on other occasions, we do not yet know the Answer; it may cover them all, but if not, the hon. Lady will no doubt ask a supplementary question.

The following is the reply:

It would have been simpler if the hon. Gentleman had said "No, Sir" to the three Questions. Is he aware that an answer like that will lose the Conservative Party any vote at any women's conference of any party anywhere? May I also ask, in regard to the increases at Whitsuntide, if he knows that the growers said the public were charged far too much in the shops and that they did not get the profits? Does he know that greengrocers have admitted that we were charged too much but they put the blame on wholesalers, and the wholesalers had nothing at all to say?

In the first place, if I had thought that the answer "No, Sir" would have satisfied the hon. Lady, I should have been very happy to have given it. On the question of votes for the Conservative Party, I am grateful for the hon. Lady's solicitude. On matters concerned in the Questions, while I know the points she makes, they are exactly the points which have been covered in the report to which I referred, and to which I referred only last week in answer to her when I said that this matter was exhaustively discussed but there was no evidence brought forward to justify the charges of excessive profits in any of the intermediary stages of distribution.

Why did the hon. Gentleman say "if" a horticultural marketing council is set up? Surely the Minister and everyone else has agreed that it should be set up? What we want to know is when it is to be set up. We have been put off and put off, but we want something done.

I could not accept that hon. Members have been put off. My right hon. Friend appointed the advisory council to go into this matter fully. It has recommended setting up a marketing council and I did not wish to anticipate any decision in the form of my reply. That is the reason for my reply taking the form it did. I assure the hon. Member that I am as anxious as he is to see it set up.

Can the hon. Gentleman tell us when the marketing council is to be set up?

No, I could not add to what my right hon. Friend has already said in a careful statement.

May I ask whether the hon. Gentleman agrees with a greengrocer in Coventry who said that prices do not go up on Friday but they go down on Monday?

I note the concern of the hon. Lady when prices go up, but I should welcome her concern for the growers when prices go down.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will make a further statement on the proposed Meat Research Centre.

The establishment of a meat research centre is still under active consideration by the Agricultural Research Council. The project raises a number of issues which will take some time to resolve before a firm decision is reached. Meanwhile, the Council hopes to set up a small laboratory near Cambridge where the meat research work at present being carried on at the Low Temperature Research Station can be expanded.

Does the Joint Parliamentary Secretary appreciate that his Ministry has an enormous appetite for having things under active consideration Surely it is time something was done?

I agree that in this case it is taking some time, but the financial and other problems are very difficult to solve I hope we shall be able to reach a decision before long.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how the supplies of beef, both home-produced and imported, for this year compare with the supplies for the corresponding period last year.

Total supplies of home-produced and imported beef and veal during January to April, 1959, amounted to 360,000 tons compared with 416,000 tons in the corresponding period last year. Of these figures home supplies amount to 252,000 tons and 291,000 tons, respectively. Supplies are expected to improve during the second half of the year.

In view of the very serious shortfall of beef supplies, is the hon. Gentleman satisfied that every possible step is being taken to supplement those supplies and to prevent their being diverted to other countries?

I would not say that it is such a very severe shortage, because there have been other supplies of meat available. As I have indicated, further supplies are coming forward. There was a Question only last week about supplies coming from Rhodesia, and there are increased quantities coming from Australia at present. I would remind the hon. Member that, although there was a shortfall on the position last year, it is still very much better than it was a few years ago.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when he expects to receive a report from the committee considering the question of the experimental importation of Charollais cattle.

The committee has only just been appointed, and it is too soon yet to say when its report may be expected.

Does the Joint Parliamentary Secretary really think this Committee can tell us anything we do not already know? Does it really help to ask a couple of retired civil servants to advise the Department which has its own officials? A decision has to be taken and, although it might be difficult, can we not have it taken?

We wish to take the decision in the light of all possible information, but in view of the strong divergence of opinion on the matter, we should have the advice of this important committee of people in the industry.

Will the hon. Gentleman circulate a list of all those things which the Ministry has under active consideration?

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he is aware that shortages of machinery and spare parts are causing difficulty for farmers; what reports he has received on this matter; and if he will make a statement.

My right hon. Friend is not aware of any general shortage of agricultural machinery and spare parts. If my hon. Friend will let me have particulars of any cases of which he has heard, I will gladly look into them.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, as representing the Lord President of the Council, what arrangements are proposed for testing for radioactivity all milk intended for processing into dried milk, in view of the increase of caesium 137 found in dried milk in all areas of Great Britain in June. 1958.

The radioactive material which merits the most immediate attention is strontium 90. The current monitoring programme covers 40 per cent. of the total milk production in the United Kingdom and includes a check to indicate the general level of contamination by caesium 137. The extent of the effort devoted to the study of radioactive elements other than strontium 90 is kept under regular review.

While appreciating that reply, may I ask whether the hon. Gentleman is aware that this caesium is the most strong in its genetic effects of all the elements of fall-out and, therefore, it would seem necessary to take very special precautions in the interests of future generations and also to make known as quickly and as widely as possible the results of researches which have been undertaken on this subject?

Yes, Sir, I would accept the importance of this matter. I assure the hon. Lady that we shall keep as close a watch on it as possible.

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster if, for the purpose of speeding up and spreading the dissemination of British news and views in far away parts of the world, he will take steps to improve and cheapen the air service for printed material.

I understand from my right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General that only in exceptional cases do printed papers sent by air get slower treatment than first-class letters. He is constantly looking for ways to speed up air mails sent from Britain.

Whilst thanking the right hon. Gentleman for that long reply, may I ask whether he will go into the matter very seriously with the Postmaster-General? Is he aware that it is essential to distribute bulky trade magazines and technical journals to places like South-East Asia and South America as rapidly as possible because of the spread of Communist influence but that these rates are a very serious handicap to proper distribution?

I shall convey to my right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General what the hon. Member has said.

Are we to gather from the reply of the right hon. Gentleman that the speed with which the material is carried is likely to be improved in the near future?

The words I used were that my right hon. Friend is constantly looking for ways of speeding up air-mail from Britain.

I asked what that means.

Perhaps the hon. Member will put that question to my right hon Friend.

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (1) what recent communication he has had with the Press on official Government matters; and

Communication to the Press on official Government matters is the responsibility of the Minister directly concerned. My responsibility is one of co-ordination.

Are we to understand that in the process of co-ordination the right hon. Gentleman makes no individual communication to the Press? If he does, occasionally, has he recently communicated with Sir William Haley of The Times?

In answer to the second part of the question, No, Sir. Of course, I have contact with the Parliamentary Press, as do most hon. Members in this House.

Why does the right hon. Gentleman appear to be so indignant when I ask if he has any communication with Sir William Haley of The Times? Is he not a respectable and reputable gentleman?

I was not indignant, merely firm.

Are we to take it from the Chancellor of the Duchy that he has made no changes in this respect since he assumed his present responsibility?

The position is still as I announced it to the House on 3rd February last year.

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster if, in the dissemination of information about British technical, scientific, and artistic achievements, he will ensure that due emphasis is given to the part played by institutions which are publicly owned or wholly or partly supported by public funds.

Yes, Sir.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that reply. Is he aware of the importance of the publication which the information services are turning out, "British Records and Achievements", and the necessity that he should make absolutely clear not only the important rôle of the nationalised industries in the economy of this country but also the extent to which the privately-owned industries depend upon Government grants and subsidies and Government-sponsored research?

I ensure as best I can that the achievements of public authorities, as well as those of private bodies, are fully used in the overseas information service.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in this process of co-ordination there appears to be a good deal of elimination also? Is he in any way responsible in this co-ordination business for the fact that an important speech on legislation by the Prime Minister this week has been comparatively ignored by the British Press and that only reports of a scuffle with some Empire Loyalists have been published?

I am not responsible for what appears in the Press, but I would say in general that my task is made much easier by the excellent achievements of the Government.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether he will take steps to amend the regulations relating to home confinement grants so as to make wider provision for mothers whose confinement takes place in hospital but who are discharged to their homes while still needing nursing care and attention.

I appreciate that occasional cases of difficulty can arise in such circumstances as I understand the hon. Gentleman has in mind. As he will be aware, the matter was considered by the National Insurance Advisory Committee some years ago, but I should like to consider whether any further provision under the National Insurance Scheme may be practicable.

I thank the Minister for that reply, but will he have particular regard to a recent decision by the National Insurance Commissioner, R(G) 1/59, which deals with the case of a woman discharged home unexpectedly because of an outbreak of infection in the hospital? Does not that decision show that there can be a case where a woman can be discharged quickly from hospital and will be in need of continued attention at home but it does not come within the Regulations as at present drafted?

I am aware of the case about which the hon. Gentleman is concerned, and it was with that in mind that I drafted the earlier words of my Answer.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there has now grown up a considerable body of National Insurance Commissioner's decisions which may, quite legitimately, now defeat some of the intentions of the Act? Is he making available to his Advisory Committee periodically full reports of the Commissioner's decisions and their implications so that the Advisory Committee may consider their implications on the whole service?

In general, the Advisory Committee is aware of the effects of the Commissioner's decisions, but before answering that question fully and categorically I should like notice of it.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how far the number of appeals to the National Insurance Commissioner has varied since the necessity to obtain leave to appeal has been abolished.

Substantive appeals in National Insurance matters have increased by about 140 per cent. Figures are not yet available in respect of Industrial Injuries appeals.

Can the Minister say whether this increased number of appeals is leading to any delay in dealing with them, or is the position, as many of us hope, that the simpler procedure will lead to appeals being dealt with more quickly and that less time will elapse between the local tribunal hearing and the Minister's decision?

This increased volume of appeals, even when allowance is made for the fact that applications for leave to appeal no longer require to be made, is a heavy load on the Commissioner and on the Commissioner's Office. As the hon. Gentleman may be aware, an additional Deputy Commissioner was appointed by Her Majesty earlier this year.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether, in the case of resorts and other places where seasonal work is only available for short periods, he will allow the earnings disregard for retirement pensioners to be assessed on an annual rate against annual earnings rather than on a weekly basis.

I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary gave on 4th June to my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone (Sir A. Bossom).

Is my right hon. Friend aware that a retirement pensioner in London can earn up to £156 a year, bearing in mind that his work is spread over a year, without losing his pension, but that a retirement pensioner in a seasonal area where work is available for only a quarter of the year can earn only up to £39 a year without reduction of pension? Is it not high time that justice was done to retirement pensioners in seasonal areas and that this long-overdue reform was introduced?

I realise that this is a problem in certain coastal areas, but my hon. Friend will be aware that the whole matter was gone into very fully by the National Insurance Advisory Committee as recently as 1956 and that it rejected any idea of averaging-out, such as my hon. Friend suggests, on the ground, among other things, that the effect of it could well be that in a number of weeks a pensioner might be without either earnings or pension.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will now allow men of the 1914–18 War to have access to pensions appeal tribunals.

The rights which these men had to appeal to the tribunals expired many years ago, and I am afraid that it would not be practicable at this very late stage, some forty years after the end of that war, to introduce new legal rights for them. There are, however, well recognised procedures for dealing with new or revived claims in respect of disablement or claims for re-opening awards already made, and claimants can also discuss their cases locally with their war pensions committees.

As the Minister has shown in his Answer that there are cases arising from the First World War which require consideration now, is there any substantial reason why, more than forty years since the end of that War, when they are over 60 years of age and their numbers are rapidly retiring, these men should not have simple access to the pensions appeal tribunals like everybody else?

As my Answer also made clear, there is, in fact, machinery to deal with these cases. The House may be interested to know that last year in some 1,700 1914–18 War cases the pensions were increased. However, in reply to the second part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, I am bound to say that I am sure that my predecessors, who have all taken the same view, were right in believing that the difficulties of evidence and the dangers of raising false hopes make it at this time of day quite impracticable, as I said in my Answer, to set up a new system of formal legal appeals.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many war-disabled pensioners have, during the past five years, forfeited their pensions as a result of serving a prison sentence; how many have had their pension restored on completion of prison sentence; and in how many cases dependants' allowances were also affected.

The precise numbers are not available, but it is estimated that, during the five years, nearly 3,000 war disablement pensioners forfeited their pensions whilst in prison and that about 1,600 of them were receiving allowances for dependants. It is the practice to pay these allowances to the dependants while the pensioner is in prison. Pension was fully restored on release from prison to all but 15 of the pensioners. These were persistent offenders who had previously been warned and pension was eventually restored to four of the fifteen after a period of good behaviour.

Am I to assume that this is a matter for the Minister's discretion, and can we take it that on all occasions the Minister's discretion will be stretched in favour of the pensioner? After all, the Minister will agree that these men earned their pensions in very difficult circumstances and that the pensions should not be taken away from them except under very great provocation. Is he willing to agree that the figures which he has given prove that war pensioners as a body are very law-abiding people?

I agree with the last part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question. With regard to the earlier part of his question, under the Royal Warrant discretion in respect of the restoration of these pensions is imposed on the Minister of the day, and the fact that out of 3,000 cases forfeiture operated after release from prison in only fifteen and was cancelled in four more illustrates the spirit in which this discretion is administered.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many claims for National Assistance have been made by persons resident in the village of Douglas and Douglas, West, in the county of Lanark, during 1958, and this year, respectively.

I am informed by the National Assistance Board that information is not available in the form asked for, but that at the end of May 60 weekly assistance grants were being paid to persons in Douglas and six to persons in Douglas West, of whom six in all were persons registering for employment.

Cannot my right hon. Friend give any figures which measure the difference between last year and this year? Is he aware that about seventy families have already left this village and that it faces a grave problem of depopulation? Would he be prepared to consider trying to give help to the families which have transferred elsewhere to find work other than mining, many of whom encountered some hardship on the ground of disturbance when they moved?

The kind of thing which my hon. Friend has in mind sounds more a matter for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour and National Service than for me. On the question of figures, about which I am responsible for informing the House, my hon. Friend will appreciate that the numbers in these two villages are a very small proportion of those dealt with by the Board's big office at Hamilton.

Will the right hon. Gentleman put his hon. Friend in touch with the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster so that he can explain the achievements of the Government to his constituents?

I am sure that my right hon. Friend and my hon. Friend need no assistance in that good work.

My constituents are aware of it already.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many widows over 50 years of age are now receiving pensions of 10s. a week.

About 80,000 widows between 50 and 60 have widows' basic pensions of 10s. a week, and another 34,000 over 60 have contributory old age pensions of the same amount. Most of these in the latter category will become eligible for the National Insurance retirement pension when they retire from regular work.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will introduce legislation to abolish the category of 10s. widow and make such widows, over 50 years of age, eligible for the normal widow's pension.

No, Sir. This pension is payable only in respect of an old right preserved when the National Insurance Bill came into operation. To carry out the hon. Lady's suggestion would increase the disparity which already exists between these widows and those in identical circumstances who receive no pension because their only rights are under the present Act.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what representations he has received on this matter? Is he aware that there is growing public feeling that it is unfair to continue to penalise these women purely because their husbands died under the wrong Act of Parliament, their husbands having paid the proper insurance contributions in force during their lifetime?

I think the hon. Lady completely misunderstands the position, which is that most of these ladies receive this small pension in circumstances otherwise identical with those in which other widows receive no pension at all.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply and his inaccuracy in suggesting that all widows over 50 get only 10s. a week pension, I give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Paymaster-General whether, in view of both strategic considerations and past experiences of the danger of accidents at Windscale, he is satisfied that a concentration of no less than four proposed nuclear power stations on the lower reaches of the Severn is in the public interest; and in what other parts of the country, of similar or greater population density, comparable concentrations of generating capacity are contemplated or already in existence.

One station is at present under construction at Berkeley and another is proposed at Oldbury. There are already much larger concentrations of generating capacity in the Trent valley and on the Thames Estuary.

asked the Paymaster-General what is the cost per unit of electricity generated in the most up-to-date coal-operated power station as compared with the estimated cost of generation in the type of nuclear power station which the Central Electriciy Generaing Board proposes to erect at Oldbury-on-Severn; and to what extent, in view of the large existing stocks of small coal and the estimated effects of modernisation and mechanisation in the coal industry, he anticipates a change in relative costs in favour of coal.

asked the Paymaster-General what report he has received from the Central Electricity Authority concerning the disparity of cost in producing electricity by coal, oil, and nuclear energy.

asked the Paymaster General (1) if he will make available estimated figures showing the comparative costs of producing electric power from the use of coal, oil, and nuclear fissile material under similar base load operating conditions over the next 10-year period;

The estimated cost of generation in the most up-to-date coal-fired power stations at present being planned ranges from 0·50d. per unit for stations situated near coalfields to 0·65d. per unit for similar stations situated remote from the coalfields. In so far as reliable comparisons are possible, the cost of oil generation would be roughly the same. On the basis of the latest designs of nuclear stations, the estimated generation cost would be between 0·65d. and 0·70d. per unit. Neither the site nor the design of the proposed station at Oldbury has yet been settled.

In giving these figures, has the right hon. Gentleman taken into account the point contained in my Question, which is that similar base load running conditions should be taken for comparison?

Yes, Sir. The figures were in every case on the basis of a 75 per cent. base load operation factor.

In view of the large stocks of small coal on hand, does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that some direction should be given to reduce the price of small coal to the generating stations, which would then deal with the cost of generating?

That is a matter of commercial policy for the National Coal Board.

asked the Paymaster-General if he will convene a meeting of the chairmen of the National Coal Board, the Gas Council, and the Central Electricity Authority and representatives of the oil industry with a view to co-ordinating the fuel and power industries.

My noble Friend has a statutory duty to secure the co-ordinated development of fuel and power in Great Britain and he arranges such consultations as are necessary for this purpose.

Has such a meeting taken place recently between the chairmen mentioned in the Question?

My noble Friend has had meetings with all the leading figures in the fuel and power industries, but, as this is a confidential matter, I am not prepared to say whom he has met on any particular occasion.

The right hon. Gentleman speaks about the power of coordinating, but is there any effective coordination in the fuel and power industries?

If by "co-ordination" the right hon. Gentleman means the suppression of competition, the answer is, "No."

Surely this is a matter of considerable national importance. Surely competition has nothing to do with co-ordination. Is it not possible for the Minister to effect co-ordination between the three fuel and power industries while at the same time permitting an element of competition?

No, Sir. As the Ridley Committee said a few years ago, a co-ordinated fuel policy should be based on free competition, but when hon. Members opposite put forward what they call a national fuel policy what they normally mean is the abolition of competition.

asked the Paymaster-General what proportion of the research and development charges for the civil nuclear power programme is borne by public funds through the Atomic Energy Authority; and what proportion is allocated on the same commercial basis as that for coal and oil burning stations.

All expenditure on research and development incurred by the Atomic Energy Authority was originally borne from public funds, but it is intended that the expenditure attributable to the civil power programme should be recovered in due course in the form of royalties payable on the electricity stations and as part of the price charged for fuel elements. The Authority also recover the cost of its consulting services from the electricity boards.

Will the right hon. Gentleman agree that points such as this should be taken into account when determining a future fuel and power policy based on true rather than hypothetical costs?

I agree. The hon. Member's Question raised an important point, and if he studies my Answer he will find that it covers the point satisfactorily.

asked the Paymaster-General what is his estimate of the percentage increase in electricity supply between 1960 and 1965; and what proportions of this increase are expected to be derived from coal, oil, nuclear energy and other sources, such as water power and undersea cables, respectively.

Electricity supply is expected to increase by almost 40 per cent., of which nearly two-thirds is expected to come from coal and rather more than a third from nuclear power. There will be a small reduction in the use of oil, partially offset by a slight increase in hydro generation.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that last week we had one or two peculiar Answers about this kind of problem from the Parliamentary Secretary, and is he aware that we have been very pleased to hear from him today that coal has a very bright future in regard to one customer at any rate?

I do not think that there has been any doubt for some time on the point that the demand for coal for electricity generation will certainly rise steadily.

In these estimates of future demand for electricity, has the right hon. Gentleman taken into account the possibility of a somewhat smaller nuclear power programme? Is it not a fact that the Central Electricity Generating Board would, if left to its own devices, rather prefer to have a smaller nuclear power programme?

I am certainly not aware of any such proposal by the Central Electricity Generating Board, and, of course, the estimates are based on advice given us by the Board itself.

asked the Paymaster-General if he will estimate the probable percentage increase in oil refining capacity in the United Kingdom between 1960 and 1965.

There is spare refining capacity in the world today and the oil companies have not yet announced plans for expanding the capacity in the United Kingdom after 1960. I regret that I am unable to make a forecast.

Will the right hon. Gentleman agree that, if our economy is to go on expanding and there is to be no further increase in oil refining capacity in this country during the next few years, we can make a very good guess at the supplies of the various fuels required for industries, and, therefore, to talk about free competition when one supply of fuel will be limited by capital investment is really not to present the true case? The needs of industries will be met by available fuels whatever the cost may be.

I do not think that the problem now is one either of availability of coal or the availability of capital for the National Coal Board. The problem is to sell the coal in competitive conditions with the oil industry.

asked the Paymaster-General what is his estimate of the percentage increase in gas supplies between 1960 and 1965; and what proportions of this increase are expected to be derived from coal, oil and other sources such as methane, respectively.

The total gas supplies are expected to increase by nearly 5 per cent. during this period. As it is expected that coal consumption by the industry will fall slightly during the period, the whole of this increase will be derived from oil and other sources.

Does this not suggest that there should be a review of the gas industry's programme in regard to the production of gas from both coal and oil? Is the Paymaster-General absolutely certain that the Gas Council is correct when it says that gas produced from oil is cheaper than gas produced from coal? Could we not have a deeper investigation into all the relative costs, and will he not agree that the whole question of fuel supplies in this country should be looked at again in the light of the estimates he has made and the answers he has given in reply to Questions today?

My noble Friend is studying this particular problem in conjunction with the chairmen of the two nationalised industries concerned.

asked the Paymaster-General to what extent, in view of the lessened demand for coal, he has authorised the National Coal Board to make changes in capital expenditure and manpower requirements.

The National Coal Board's review of the industry's future requirements is still in progress and has not yet been submitted to my noble Friend. In the meantime, the expenditure of £122 million on capital works has been authorised for 1959.

Is the right hon. Gentleman admitting that the Coal Board is still muddling along without a plan? Does he recall that the document issued by the Coal Board, "Plan for Coal", is now three years old? Ought it not to be revised quickly in the light of recent development?

The Coal Board is facing an extremely difficult problem. It is not a question of muddling along at all. The new plan will be available soon, and we shall study it with interest.

Are we to understand that the Government's policy is that this must be a matter of free choice for the consumer and that, therefore, they look to a price war between these industries instead of co-ordinating them with a national purpose?

The Opposition themselves are not prepared to suggest any limitation of price competition in these matters.

asked the Paymaster-General to what extent he will sanction any further borrowings by the National Coal Board to finance the stocking of coal.

The National Coal Board's borrowings are subject to statutory limits. If these are likely to be inadequate either because of stocking or for any other reason, the approval of the House will be sought to the necessary extension.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether this is yet another matter on which the Government have not yet made up their mind? What is the ceiling beyond which it would be considered uneconomic to stock more coal?

The Question asks whether we will sanction any further borrowings, and my answer makes it clear that we have made up our mind that we will sanction further borrowings if the House approves, and if it becomes necessary.

asked the Paymaster-General to what extent, on the basis of current trends in supply and demand he anticipates that his target of 3 million tons of coal added to colliery stocks during 1959 will be exceeded.

Undistributed stocks are now expected to rise by about 7 million tons this year.

Will the Minister take into account the fact that excess stocking results in a substantial increase in cost, and does not this add greatly to the argument in favour of reducing opencast coal mining?

I do not think any further cut in opencast coal is possible, for reasons which have been explained to the House on a number of occasions.

asked the Paymaster-General what recent report he has received, in accordance with Section 3 (4) of the Coal Industry Nationalisation Act, from the National Coal Board regarding the closure of pits in the year 1960.

My noble Friend does not regard this subject as appropriate to Section 3 (4), but he expects it to be dealt with in conjunction with the National Coal Board's long-term plan now under review.

What consideration has been given to this matter in the immediate future in view of the apprehension that now exists in the coalfields?

As I think the hon. Member is aware, we have already said that there will be no further special closures in 1959. What is contemplated in 1960 will become apparent when the National Coal Board's plan comes forward in the near future.

asked the Paymaster-General if, in view of the need to reassess the coal requirements of the country, he will give a general direction to the National Coal Board to estimate the amount of compensation necessary to terminate all contracts for opencast coal mining.

No, Sir.

Do we understand from that reply that the Paymaster-General is not in favour of terminating opencast mining contracts? How long is he going to continue to get this inferior coal that he cannot sell? If he will take the trouble to consult miners, the various Coal Board divisions, farmers, local authorities and coal merchants, he will discover that opencast coal has no friend outside Hobart House and Millbank.

Opencast coal is an extremely valuable national asset. It has already been announced that the opencast mining programme is being substantially run down over the next few years.

asked the Paymaster-General whether he is yet in a position to give estimates of the anticipated demand for coal in 1960 and succeeding years.

My noble Friend hopes that with the revival in economic activity the recent fall in demand will be halted, but the level of demand in future years will depend on the competitive position of coal as well as on the expansion of the economy.

As the Minister has admitted today that coal is competitive with oil, certainly with respect to consumption in power stations, will he take further steps to ensure that there is a transfer from oil to coal burning in power stations, and will he also take into account the fact that the miners in the coal industry are looking urgently to the Government for a definite guarantee that when they produce the coal for which they are asked, the coal will be sold and not piled up at the pithead?

I do not think it is possible to guarantee the sale of all coal that is mined unless it is mined on a competitive basis. As to the electricity generating industry, its consumption of coal will certainly rise substantially in the next few years.

Why does the right hon. Gentleman demand that the National Coal Board should be competitive in relation to other fuel and power industries and yet at the same time not issue instructions to the Coal Board to sell coal which is stocked at a lower price now? Is not that what is meant by competition?

No. The answer is that the nationalisation Statute passed by the right hon. Gentleman and his party leaves, rightly in the opinion of the Government, commercial discretion in these matters to the National Coal Board.

Is it not true that at the time when this country was suffering from a fuel shortage the National Coal Board was restrained from increasing its prices which competition would have allowed it to do? In one instance, the industry was restrained from doing so on the eve of a General Election to serve the interests of the party opposite. Are we now to understand that now that the situation has changed the Government say "Fend for yourselves and take the consequences"?

We do not intend to stop the Coal Board lowering its prices if it wants to do so. In these matters of price policy it is a matter for the Coal Board, which is the responsible commercial undertaking, to do what it thinks right.

If at a time when competition would have allowed the Coal Board to increase its prices the Government of the day prevented it from enjoying advantages of that kind of competition, what right have the Government now to throw the industry on to its own resources against competition which the right hon. Gentleman knows is subsidised?

If it is a question of subsidised competition, that is another matter; but the Government do not believe, and the Opposition have shown no sign of believing, that the coal industry should have special protection against competition.

asked the Minister of Supply how many more domestic animals will be required for experiments at the Chemical Defence Experimental Establishment; and how much longer these experiments are to be carried out.

asked the Minister of Supply what is the purpose of the Chemical Defence Experimental Establishment; and why it was necessary to destroy 3,000 animals in six months at that establishment, in particular the 32 cats, 42 dogs, 20 pigs and 31 sheep.

The purpose of the Chemical Defence Experimental Establishment is to devise means of defence against the possible use of chemical weapons in war. It is necessary to this work to assess the effect on man of particular chemical compounds. Rodents are used for the initial experiments and other animals are needed only if further investigation is required into the mechanism of action of any compound, when it becomes necessary to use an animal whose physiology is not unlike that of man. Dogs, cats and pigs have such characteristics and are commonly used by medical institutions. Sheep are used to assess the danger to grazing animals from herbage contaminated by toxic chemicals. All experiments are carried out by skilled staff licensed by the Home Office, whose inspectors have access to the laboratories without notice. The therapeutic procedures discovered at the Establishment have been used with success in saving the lives of both men and animals accidently poisoned by insecticides

Is the Minister aware that hon. Members who recently visited the Establishment were refused access to that part of the Establishment where these experiments were being conducted, although we now learn from the Minister that representatives from the Home Office can go there without notice? Why is there so much secrecy about this aspect of the work? Further, will he say from what source the dogs and cats are obtained?

I think I am right in saying that when hon. Members paid their recent visit to the Establishment they did not, in fact, visit the Chemical Defence Establishment. They visited the Microbiological Research Establishment.

Will my right hon. Friend give some idea of how much longer these experiments are to go on?

I should have thought it emerged from my Answer that it would be reasonable to conduct the experiments for as long as it was necessary to provide defence against the possible use of chemical weapons in war.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a good deal of public concern at this apparent wholesale slaughter of animals for this purpose? The numbers seem enormous. Further, is he aware that his statement that experiments are to continue will not allay public feeling if there is to be no end to this business? Have those concerned not discovered what they want?

I think my hon. Friend ought to know that the number of animals used in these experiments is, in fact, less than 1 per cent. of the total used in the country at large.

Does the Minister realise that what was said by the hon. Member for Manchester, Blackley (Mr. E. Johnson) was agreed to by some hon. Members on this side? Does not the nauseating information given in the Question make nonsense of the emotional hysteria created when the Russians sent up one dog in a Sputnik?

asked the Minister of Supply if he will now make a statement as to proposed Government support for the replacement of the Dakota aircraft.

I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the statement which I made on 11th June in reply to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton).

I read that original reply, but does not this support announced by the Minister for two aircraft of a similar type, one in the air and one on the drawing board, indicate that he has now abandoned his policy for the rationalisation of the industry

No, Sir; I have not in the least abandoned any policy for the rationalisation of the industry. Both these aircraft have been started by their manufacturers of their own accord.

How much is this State assistance for the industry, which is what it amounts to, to cost? Secondly, as regards the Herald aircraft, what are the considerations justifying assistance now which were not equally valid two, three, or five or six years ago?

In answer to the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, I judge that the amount of money involved would be about £750,000 for each aircraft. As to the second part, all I can say is that interest has been expressed overseas in both aircraft.

asked the Minister of Supply whether he is aware of the proposed reduction in activity at the Rotax factory in Beaconsfield; and what action he will take to help the employment position there by the placing of defence orders.

I am aware of this firm's plans which involve the transfer of some work from its Beaconsfield factory to its factory at Hemel Hempstead. This is a measure of rationalisation which has become necessary, in the firm's judgment, because of the decline in military aircraft work. As regards the second part of the Question, I can place defence orders only to meet the stated requirements of the Services.

Does my right hon. Friend not think it desirable that all manufacturing capacity for aircraft components should be fully used so far as possible, and is he doing everything he can to encourage the use of British components in aircraft manufactured abroad?

The answer to the second part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question is most certainly "Yes". Having regard to all that, however, one cannot, none the less, blink one's eye to the fact that the contraction in the demand for military aircraft does entail redundancies.

asked the Minister of Supply to what extent, when considering the amount of financial assistance to be made available for the development of helicopters, he takes into account the potential r6le to be played by such vertical lift machines as the SRNI.

The Hovercraft is essentially a surface craft, but my Department has had continued interest in this project and is represented on and intends to remain in close touch with the Company, that is, Hovercraft Development Limited, which is being financed by the National Research and Development Corporation.

Is it not perfectly obvious that the future of this aircraft joust he determined by, and will equally possibly determine, the future of other machines in which the Ministry of Supply is interested? Would it not be a matter of common sense in administration to have responsibility for this whole field centred in one Department?

If application were made to my Department for help on this project, such a request would, naturally, be considered on its merits.

asked the Minister of Health if he will take steps to assist the recruitment of supervisors and assistant supervisors for mental deficiency hospital schools and to stop the drift of these officers from the hospitals to the local health authorities.

The salaries of these officers were increased last November and were then in line with those paid to their counterparts employed by local authorities. Following a recent increase in the salaries paid by local authorities a claim for a further increase for these officers is under consideration by the appropriate Whitley Council.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is not only a question of salary but that the local authorities can offer much better conditions of service and, in particular, longer holidays to these officials? Is it not the fact that the hospital service is labouring under very great difficulties indeed, and will he use his influence, through his representatives on the Whitley Council, to try to iron out the anomalies in the interests of the hospital service?

I am aware of this problem in regard to holidays and so on. The hon. Gentleman may be aware that, last January, the hospital authorities were given discretion to allow somewhat similar concessions, but it is a little early yet to say what is the effect of this.