asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what progress has been made with arrangements for supplying books oversea to countries with currency restrictions or in which low cost books are particularly required.

asked the Chancel for of the Duchy of Lancaster, having in mind the amount of literature poured into India and other Asiatic countries by Communist countries, so cheaply that it qualifies as propaganda, what is being done in a comparable way by this country.

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what action he is taking to increase the supply of British books to countries overseas.

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what progress he is making in his proposals for the provision of cheap British books for underdeveloped territories.

asked the Chancel for of the Duchy of Lancaster if he will now make a full statement of the Government's plans, foreshadowed in paragraph 13 of Command Paper No. 685, to encourage the flow of British publications overseas in order that the British point of view may be more widely understood and the large scale efforts of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and China to foster Communism shall be properly countered.

The Government's study of ways to encourage the flow of British publications overseas has now been completed. The Government have decided upon the following measures:

I am sure that hon. Members in all parts of the House will be very glad to learn that the Government are now proposing to take action in this matter. I think we are all delighted, especially after the news which we saw this morning about activities in Formosa. No doubt the right hon. Gentleman is also aware that very large numbers of books are being given by the Chinese and other Governments to libraries in India. Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us about how much it is proposed to expend on these matters?

It is very difficult to forecast the expenditure, because it depends in no small part on the number and character of the agreements entered into, for which negotiations will now start. Next year, when we shall be beginning to get under way, I estimate, as best I can, the increased expenditure to be about £500,000.

In warmly welcoming the announcement which my right hon. Friend has made and which I regard as a very important step in the right direction, may I ask him whether there will be any attempt to co-ordinate these efforts with efforts being made by the United States, which are very considerable in this field?

There is a degree of coordination with the United States Government, but, at the same time, there is a primary responsibility on us to secure the greater flow of British books and periodicals.

Will these books be confined to technical books, or will they deal also with philosophy and the English way of life?

In so far as the increase in the British Council's resources is concerned, there will be a concentration on scientific and technical books. In so far as the schemes to be negotiated with countries where import restrictions prevent the flow are concerned, there will be a wide range of books. They will be the books, as it were, ordered by the customers. In so far as the low-priced books are concerned, they will be books thought to have a wide mass appeal and reflecting British thought and ideas.

Whilst thanking my right hon. Friend for his reply, may I ask if he can tell us how soon the measures which he has mentioned will come into force, because there is, I think he will agree, some urgency in the matter?

I am very alive to the urgency, and negotiations on those parts of the proposals which depend on negotiations will begin as soon as possible.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many titles in the lower-priced books are likely to be published next year and also something about the currency methods to be employed? Is it to be a case of blocked currency as in the United States?

On the first question, I cannot now give the number of titles, but I can say that in the first phase—next year's phase—I hope it will be possible to reach up to 2 million copies of low-priced books. On the second question, clearly the negotiation of schemes to overcome import restrictions must not exclude the prospect that the currency again will be non-convertible.

Whilst welcoming the proposal as a step in the right direction, can the right hon. Gentleman say a word about the cheaper editions? Will they be published in conjunction with private publishers in the form of placing orders and subsidising them, or will the Government themselves publish them?

It will be done in association with the publishers who own the copyright of the books that it is desired to deal with by a low-price scheme, which will involve Government aid to narrow the gap between the economic price and what can be paid in the countries of reception.

Where the question of choice arises, who will be responsible for selection? Will it be the publishers or the British Council?

I am aware of the delicacy of the matter of the choice of titles. There will be a most responsible advisory committee which will advise on this subject, although in order that the Ministers themselves may be answerable in this House the final decision will be taken by the Minister responsible

Suppose a client desires a certain type of book and that type of book is critical of the Government and their policy. Will there be any restriction on its supply?

I cannot forecast what delicate criteria will be applied.

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what was the value of British book exports in 1958 to India, Pakistan, Ceylon, and Israel, respectively; and what proposals he has for increasing these exports.

The value of British book exports in 1958, as recorded in the Trade and Navigation Accounts, to the countries listed in the hon. Member's Question was:

Is the Minister aware that the small figures he has given underline the importance of the statement he has just made? Can he assure the House that all the countries mentioned in my Question will be the subject of negotiations with the United Kingdom Government?

I am aware of the lowness, particularly of three of these sets of figures. On the question of the countries, I would ask the House to forgive me if I do not name them, because I am anxious that negotiations shall begin with them before there is any public announcement of the countries.

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what steps he is taking to set up an advisory body equipped to promote educational television in African and Asian countries as part of the United Kingdom overseas broadcasting services.

Although I do not think that an advisory body is necessary, a good deal is being done to provide television stations with educational and other material.

In view of the tremendous educational drive in the African territories and the great shortage of teachers, is the Minister aware that educational television is likely to play an increasingly important rôle? Will he make every effort to ensure that the British Government are in at the beginning of the tremendous operation and give all the assistance that they can?

I am aware of the problem, but at the moment there is only one television station on the Continent of Africa, and that is in Algeria. Other stations are in contemplation in Ghana and Nigeria. I am fully alive to the problem. It may interest the hon. Member to know that pilot work of teaching English by television is being undertaken by the British Council.

Would the Minister bear in mind that with the object of disseminating as widely as possible in the next few years British ideas, culture, and way of life, wireless and television will be just as important as the wider distribution of books? Will the Minister see that the schemes are dovetailed and co-ordinated?

I would not venture into a comparison of the comparative value of the printed word and the visual image, but I am aware of the great and growing importance of television as a medium for British ideas.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether he will take steps to amend the regulations for the payment of sickness benefit, etc., to night workers so as to avoid the present situation whereby a man who resumes work on a different shift may lose a day's benefit compared with a day worker who is sick for the same period.

No, Sir. I think the present regulations dealing with payments of benefit to shift workers (Statutory Instrument No. 1277 of 1948, as amended) are appropriate, and I cannot accept that their effect is accurately summarised in the hon Member's Question.

Would not the Minister agree that under these regulations sometimes a man at the end of a period of sickness may lose a day's sickness benefit and possibly a day's wages? Should not the regulations be amended to ensure that a man who is a night worker will always get as many days' benefit as a day worker who is sick for the same period?

I realise that every possible variation of circumstance is possible, but I am bound to say that the example the hon. Gentleman sent to me does not seem to bear out his contention, since the days he complained were treated as days of work were days on which the man concerned worked six hours on one day and a full shift on the other.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what was the number of people in the towns of Leek, Kidsgrove, Biddulph and Cheadle, respectively, in receipt of National Assistance for each of the years 1950 to the latest available date in 1959, and the number of these provided with a grant this last year to meet any increases in rents.

I am informed by the National Assistance Board that the information asked for is not available as separate records have not been kept for these four towns, which are each situated in much larger areas served by the Board's area offices.

Is the Minister aware that this is the second time in the last two weeks that I have received the reply that this type of information is not available? First, I could not get information on money given to private enterprise. Now, in a little local area like this, we are unable to get the information about the assistance given to subsidise private landlords. Are the figures in today's report those of the overhead expenditure on rent allowance?

The hon. Gentleman must not ask me to summarise the full report. He has it in his hand and he can perfectly well read for himself. The difficulty about the Question on the Order Paper—and I am sorry I cannot give the figures—is that the four places the hon. Gentleman picked out are quite small proportions of three much larger areas served by the National Assistance Board area offices.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether he is aware that the percentage of acceptances for pneumoconiosis compensation backed by medical certificates among miners varies greatly in different parts of the country; and what is the reason for this.

It is impossible within the reasonable compass of a reply to a Parliamentary Question to deal comprehensively with the large number of factors which seem likely to have some relevance to the matter. These, however, include the different consciousness of risk and consequent frequency of application in different coalfields, variations in the type of coal and conditions in pits, and, more recently, the progress of the National Coal Board's programme of X-ray examination.

May I ask the Minister whether the admitted operations he has mentioned do not suggest that there is a need for a reconsideration of standards? In view of the admitted differences in different areas, could not some more unified standard be maintained?

I do not altogether agree with the hon. Gentleman, because it is clear from the circumstances some of which are outlined in my Answer, that there are factors which would cause the proportions and figures to vary from area to area. I do not think one can draw any further deduction as a result of that.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether, in view of the high incidence of respiratory disease in miners, he will insist on a general medical examination and test of respiratory function as well as an X-ray examination in all those making an initial claim for compensation.

As the hon. Member is, I am sure, aware, there is a proper opportunity for clinical examination of all claimants for benefit for penumoconiosis whenever it is needed.

Will not the Minister arrange that in every initial case where compensation for removal from the industry is demanded there should be a thorough examination, and not only an X-ray examination, so that the individuals who really need removal from the industry may be picked out at once and given a chance to establish themselves in some other occupation? The general medical view is that by X-ray examination alone all the facts are not available.

I have seen the process of X-ray examination in South Wales and the research work done at Llandough, as I know the hon. Gentleman has, and it is extremely interesting. The position is that a clinical examination takes place wherever X-ray photographs suggest that it is necessary, and in the case of a claim being rejected on X-ray examination alone the claimant can obtain a clinical examination by submitting an appeal.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will ensure that workers on short time, working only four days a week, should, when a one-day holiday occurs, be paid one day's unemployment benefit in addition to holiday pay.

I see no grounds for modifying the well-established statutory requirement that there must be at least two days of unemployment in six consecutive weekdays before benefit can be paid.

Surely the Minister never intended that thousands of men with only three days work in such a holiday week should suffer the hardship of one day without pay, holiday pay or unemployment relief. Does not this injustice arise not from the industrial agreement but through a recent Commissioner's ruling which was wanted neither by the employers nor by the workers? Could not the Minister find a way of avoiding this hardship, possibly by amending the regulations?

I cannot see how, in principle, one could justify treating a regular holiday as a day of unemployment, quite apart from the question of holiday pay referred to in the Question, but if the hon. Member will write to me concerning the decision of the Commissioner to which he referred and which he feels has given rise to some trouble, I shall be glad to look into the matter.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether administrative arrangements have been, completed for implementing the Convention on Social Security agreed between Belgium and Great Britain in 1957.

I am glad to say that the Belgian authorities have informed me that their administrative arrangements for implementing the Convention have now been completed.

Does that mean that the claims will be paid immediately now?

I understand from our embassy that claims which have been held up pending agreement will now be dealt with.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what is the average age of widows who only get a special pension of 10s. per week; how many of them are on National Assistance; and what percentage the latter figure is of the total number on this pension.

I assume that the hon. Member refers to widows who do not satisfy the conditions for National Insurance widow's benefit but receive the 10s. widow's basic pension derived from their husbands' insurance under the old Contributory Pensions Acts. The average age of these widows is now about 53, and it is estimated that about 9,500 of them, that is, about 9 per cent, of the total, are receiving National Assistance.

Is the Minister still adamant about not increasing the amount paid to these widows? Will he try to do something to end this anomaly?

The hon. Member will be aware of the fact that these are ladies who, in general, receive a pension in circumstances in which identically placed widows who derive their title from the National Insurance Act receive none. To increase this pension would therefore be to widen the anomaly.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether, when the new improved scales of National Assistance become operative, he will increase the rates of war pension and allowance payable to aged and incapacitated war widows so as to maintain the preference recently awarded to that special category of war widow.

As my hon. Friend will be aware, war widows over 70 are from the beginning of this month receiving a new grant of 10s. a week. In addition, the National Assistance Board has recently indicated that it will ordinarily disregard 10s. 6d. of a war widow's pension, and this figure will be increased to 15s. a week if Parliament approves the related proposals which I announced on 15th June. In these ways the preferential treatment of war widows is, in my view, being preserved.

Is it not a fact that as a result of these very welcome proposed increases in National Assistance a widow over 70 years of age will receive exactly the same as a widow under that age? Consequently, it would seem that preferential treatment will disappear.

I do not follow my hon. Friend's argument, which I should like to consider further when I read HANSARD. The facts of the matter are clearly set out in my main Answer, which I would ask my hon. Friend to consider.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will introduce forthwith substantial improvements in the basic rate of retirement pensions and widows' pensions and the earning rules relating to various awards of pensions.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will now introduce a Measure to increase the basic rate for all old-age pensioners in view of the recent improvements in the rates of assistance to certain categories of persons.

I will, with permission, answer Questions No. 18 and No. 26 together by saying that, so far as the hon. Member for Morpeth's Question and the first two points in that of the hon. Member for Ardwick are concerned, I have nothing to add to what I have said previously on this subject. With reference to the last part of the latter hon. Member's Question, I would invite his attention to the fact that increases in the earnings limits came into operation on 20th April.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he is being as nebulous as ever in saying that he has nothing to add to what he said on another occasion? What we want to know is this: is it not high time that the basic retirement pension was increased in order to make it commensurate with the increased cost of living? Is the Minister aware that many of those people who will be entitled to apply for National Assistance will not do so out of sheer pride? Why not improve the basic retirement pension in order to remove some of the stigma which some pensioners, rightly or wrongly, still feel about having to apply for National Assistance? Will the Minister also assist the 10s. widows in their present plight?

With respect to the hon. Member's observations about the value of the pension in terms of prices, as the hon. Member is aware, the pension's real value is higher than at any time before January, 1958. I do not see how it can be said that I am being nebulous by referring the hon. Member to very clear and comprehensive statements which have been made and which deal with this very complex matter much better than can be done by way of question and answer.

Is the Minister aware that in recent months increases have been given in respect of Service and Civil Service pensioners? Does not he recognise the legitimate claim of 4 million old-age pensioners to share in the prosperity of present-day Britain?

I am aware that a considerable number of social advances have been made under this Government, but in relation to the one to which he referred, he will appreciate that the proposals of my right hon. Friend in respect of public service pensioners were the first made since 1956, whereas the National Insurance pension rates were raised as recently as early last year.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will state the number of limbless war pensioners of the 1914–18 War; the number who now qualify for the age allowance payable at 65 years of age; and the number of 1914–18 limbless war pensioners who died last year before qualifying for the age allowance.

At 27th March, 1959, there were 18,897 limbless pensioners of the 1914–18 War, and 9,175 qualified for the age allowance. In the year ending on that date deaths among 1914–18 War limbless pensioners who were under 65 numbered 329.

Is the Minister aware that those pensioners, numbering over 300, would have qualified for these welcome benefits if the age limit had been lowered from 65 to 60? Will the Government give further consideration to the possibility of reducing the age limit to 60, in order that as many people as possible can enjoy the benefits which the Government have given this deserving section of the community?

The answer to the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question is "Yes". But when the age allowance was introduced the age of 65 was chosen, together with the figure of 40 per cent, disability, because it was felt that by drawing the line there help would be concentrated where it was most needed. It is not intended to apply to Services in any particular campaign or war. Whichever age limit was chosen, the hon. Member would be able to say it was a pity that the line was not drawn a little lower.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what positive steps are being taken by his Department to bring to the notice of limbless and other seriously-disabled ex-Service men the full extent of their entitlements.

Two years ago I sent an individual letter to war pensioners and widows, together with a detailed leaflet, drawing their attention to the various benefits to which they might be entitled, and explaining how to claim them. My own welfare officers, the war pensions committees and the ex-Service organisations are all working to secure that the war pensioner and widow secure all that they are entitled to under the scheme, and the Press have been very helpful in the matter. Last but by no manner of means least is the very great help we receive in connection with individual cases from hon. Members. This is, of course, a continuing problem.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply, and I should also like to pay tribute to the devotedness of his staff in this matter. Nevertheless, would he consider arranging, through the television authorities—either the B.B.C. or the I.T.A.—for periodical television programmes to this effect? It would appear that many disabled people still do not know what benefits they can draw.

The matter does not rest entirely in my hands. The broadcasting authorities are always very helpful in these matters, but in this connection there is a danger of stimulating hopes which are subsequently frustrated. Although I should like to consider my hon. Friend's suggestion, I can see that difficulties might be involved in adopting it.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will state the numbers of 1914–18 limb less war pensioners whose assessments of disability have been reviewed during the last 12 months, and the numbers of such cases in which increased assessments have been authorised to take account of deterioration in pensioned disabilities or consequential conditions.

I regret that the information requested in the first part of the Question is not available. As regards the second, the figure for the year ended 27th March, 1959, was about 320.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will now appoint a Committee to review the Tables of Assessments for Specific Injuries, with a view to remedying the grievances arising from the varying rates of pensions for similar amputations and the disabilities sustained in different wars, and to consider especially the amount of compensation paid to those who are directly linked to the Tables of Assessments for Specific Injuries.

No, Sir. As the hon. Member knows, the existing assessments were those recommended by the expert committee which went into the matter fully in 1946. I do not feel that there has been any change since then which would justify setting up another committee.

The Minister will appreciate that 1946 is some time away. Does he also appreciate that an appeal in connection with an amputation attracts only a 40 per cent, pension, which is 34s. a week, with no opportunity of qualifying for the supplementary allowances? As has already been proved, amputation brings other things in its train. Should not there be some opportunity, therefore, of a supplementary allowance rather than that a person should be tied to a fixed amount as at present?

The hon. Gentleman has raised a different question from that on the Order Paper with respect to allowances. His Question on the Order Paper relates to the reviewing of the fixed assessments recommended by the Hancock Committee. About them I can only say that they were worked out by a highly expert body which received expert medical help. The result was to increase some assessments above the preexisting level as well as to reduce others of the kind which the hon. Gentleman may have in mind. On the medical aspect of the matter, I do not think there is a case for a review of this kind.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether he will accept a shortened form of birth certificate on all occasions when he requires proof of birth; and whether he will give instructions to this effect to all his offices.

My offices already have standing instructions to this effect. If the hon. Member has any particular difficulty in mind and will let me have the details, I will gladly look into it.

I thank the Minister very much.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance why he has been unable to put savings invested with co-operative societies on the same basis for disregards as other small savings for the purpose of assessing qualification for National Assistance.

All small savings are treated alike by the National Assistance Board for disregard purposes, except that an additional disregard in respect of War Savings was introduced during the last war to encourage people to invest in such savings rather than in other ways.

Does not the change in 1948, when certain small savings were put on an entirely different basis, completely alter the situation? Since so much of the co-operative savings to which I refer go to Government sources and are reinvested in Government securities, does not the Minister think that now is the time, for example, to put Post Office savings and co-operative savings on the same basis?

No, the War Savings disregard was, as I understand it, introduced primarily as a stimulus to War Savings and not as a considered part of the disregards system for the purposes of assistance. The point which the hon. Gentleman has in mind could much better be met by proposals to raise the disregards generally, which I hope the House will be discussing the day after tomorrow.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many people in the towns of Ashington, Morpeth, Lynemouth, and Pegswood are in receipt of National Assistance; and how many have received an extra grant to meet an increase in rents.

I am informed by the National Assistance Board that separate figures are not available for the four towns mentioned, which are only part of the area served by the Board's office in Ashington. In the whole of that area, 3,709 weekly assistance grants were current at the end of May. It is not possible to say how many recipients of assistance have had their grants increased in recent years to provide for an increase in rent. Some of the local authorities in the area have increased rents on more than one occasion, and the figures available do not show how many different householders have been affected.

asked the Paymaster-General if he is aware that the Southern Electricity Board has applied to the Minister of Power for his statutory consent and for deemed planning permission to erect an overhead electricity line running from Midhurst to Marley Common; and what is the policy of the Government to protect beautiful country against such encroachments.

Yes, Sir. My noble Friend has ordered a public inquiry into objections to the Board's proposals, to be held at Fernhurst on 21st July. He will consider the report of the inquiry and consult his right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government before reaching a decision. It is the Government's policy to ensure, so far as is practicable, that areas of outstanding beauty are not chosen for the erection of overhead lines.

asked the Paymaster-General what fuel costs per unit sent out in each case have been allowed for in the estimated total costs of generation of ·5d. for coal-fired power stations and ·65d. for nuclear stations.

In coal-fired power stations now being planned the cost is expected to range from 0·35d. to 0·50d. per unit according to distance from the coalfield. For the latest designs of nuclear stations, the cost is about 0·17d. per unit.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the reliability of these estimates depends greatly on the price of the fuel as a variable, whether it be coal or nuclear fuel, and also that the opinions of experts vary tremendously on this point? Is he satisfied that he has the advantage of the most comprehensive advice?

I agree that all estimates are subject to a margin of error, but I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we have the advantage of very comprehensive advice from a remarkably efficient range of people in these matters.

Since the Minister admitted last week that the cost of generating electricity by coal is no greater than generating it by oil, will he support proposals made for converting oil-fired stations for the use of coal, thus saving the foreign exchange required to purchase the oil and diverting a grave social waste by the premature collapse of pits?

I do not think that arises from the Question on the Order Paper, which refers to coal and nuclear stations.

asked the Paymaster-General what action he is taking under the Ministry of Fuel and Power Act, 1945, in order to promote future economy and efficiency in the supply and use of fuel and power, in view of the fact that the comparison made three years ago between the cost of nuclear electrical power and power derived from coal has proved to be wrong because of the drop in the capital cost of coal-fired power stations and the expected stabilisation of the price of coal.

My noble Friend could not accept the implication that the case for the nuclear power programme is no longer valid. As I informed the House in reply to a number of Questions on 15th June, it remains reasonable to hope that the cost of nuclear power will fall below that of conventional power within the next decade.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that, on cost alone, coal, if given a fair field and no favour, can still provide electricity much more cheaply than it can be provided by any other primary source? In those circumstances, would it not be wise for the Minister of Power at least to look again—without antagonism to nuclear development—into the economics of the power investment programme, even if it does mean an admission that the Government have probably made a mistake?

The hon. Gentleman is, I think, neglecting two things. First of all, we cannot place all coal-fired stations on coalfields. The economics of a coal-fired station away from a coalfield is very different from the economics of one placed on a coalfield. Secondly, we are at the beginning of an enormous expansion of the nuclear power industry, and unless we put a real push behind it we cannot expect to reap the full benefits which we hope for from the work of our scientists and technicians.

Is the Minister contemplating building any additional coal-fired power stations in the future?

Yes. As we have made clear, the consumption of coal in-the electricity generating industry will rise substantially over the next few-years.

Would it not be of advantage if the Central Electricity Generating Board were to proceed rather less quickly with nuclear power stations?

I cannot see how that could be of benefit to it, to the industry or to the country.

asked the Paymaster-General what change there has been in the intention to modify three nuclear power stations to enable plutonium suitable for military use to be extracted should the need arise.

Last year Her Majesty's Government asked the Central Electricity Generating Board to make a small modification in the design of certain power stations to enable plutonium suitable for military purposes to be extracted if need should arise. Having taken into account recent developments, including the latest agreement with the United States, and having re-assessed the fissile material which will become available for military purposes from all sources, it has been decided to restrict the modifications to one power station, namely, Hinkley Point.

While appreciating that much of the detail of this project must be top secret, may I ask if my right hon. Friend can say to what sources of fissile material his Answer refers?

No, Sir, I am afraid I cannot add anything further to my reply.

asked the Paymaster-General what steps are being taken to assess the national fuel requirements in view of the changing nature of supply and the impact of scientific development; and whether he will make a statement.

My noble Friend keeps the national fuel requirements under constant review in the light of all relevant factors.

That reply hardly answers the import of my Question. In view of that Answer, does not the Minister realise the imperative need of a national assessment of our fuel and power requirements, if only to avoid the probability of wasteful capital expenditure and the misdirection of scientific research?

I think both sides of the House agree that a national assessment should be constantly going on. The only difference is that the conclusions reached by the Government and the conclusions reached by back benchers opposite are different.

Can the Minister not answer the supplementary question that I put earlier on this matter? Will he not support the proposal for converting oil-fired stations to coal, in view of the probability that the nation will make great gains?

On two occasions already, as the right hon. Gentleman will be aware, arrangements have been made to scale down previous plans for the consumption of oil in power stations. We should thank the electricity industry and the oil industry for their co-operation in this matter.

Can that process not be carried a great deal further with great advantage to the nation?

It is a matter for the Generating Board, which has entered into commercial contracts which the Government have never instructed it to break.

asked the Paymaster-General if he will consider setting up a national fuel advisory board under his chairmanship to co-ordinate the fuel-producing industries of the country which would include representatives of coal, gas, electricity, nuclear energy and the oil industry.

No, Sir.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that my Question proposes the setting up of a committee in an advisory capacity so that the fuel and power industries of the country can jointly work out a policy on the advice of that committee in the best interests of the nation, instead of pulling their own separate ways, which is in the worst interests of the nation? Will he not do something of a similar nature?

I do not think that the setting up of an advisory board of this kind would add anything whatever to the very full advice which my noble Friend already receives.

asked the Paymaster General what is the estimated cost of the liquid methane experiments; and to what extent an estimate has been made of the effects on future demand for coal.

On the first part of his Question I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the right hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) on 14th May, 1959. It is too early to attempt an estimate of the effect, if any, which the use of liquid methane might have on the gas industry's consumption of other forms of fuel.

Is it not a fact that large shipments of liquid methane gas coming to this country will prove very costly and probably hazardous in the broadest sense? Is it not also true that large importations of methane gas will seriously affect the mining industry, particularly the mines around Durham which have been affected over the last few years? Are we not in danger of casting away the substance for the shadow?

No, these are still experimental shipments and the point is to discover whether it is possible, as it may be, to produce gas for the consumer at substantially lower prices by the importation of this methane than it is produced at present.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that production of coal up-to-date this year has been about 3½ million tons less than last year? Is he aware that consumption of coal is about 8 million tons less and, therefore, we are over-producing? Is it not true that if opencast mining were abolished we should still have enough coal? What do the Government intend to do about this important question?

I understand the Question is about methane.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a recent successful experimental shipment carried enough methane gas to supply a town with a population of 40,000 for twelve months? Does he agree that there will be economic and social consequences inevitably arising through this stage of advancement? Does he not think that further development of this commercially exploitable process ought to be given much more serious consideration?

I cannot confirm offhand the figures the hon. Member has given, but I agree that this is a very serious matter. The point is that the Gas Council is now conducting experiments. When those experiments are ended, it will be necessary for the Gas Council to put a proposal to the Government. Then we shall be able to consider the technical, economic and social consequences. I am sure it would be right to continue the experiments and to find the facts first.

asked the Paymaster- General to what extent recent information in the hands of his Department gives reason to believe that the importation of liquid methane will prove both success ful and economic.

asked the Pay master-General what consultations have taken place between the Gas Council and the Government regarding the importation of liquid methane.

There was full consultation between my noble Friend and the Gas Council before he agreed that the possibility of liquid methane proving a valuable and economical addition to our gas supplies justified the present experiment. An assessment of the results of the experiment cannot be made until the trial shipments are completed.

While the Government are considering this matter, do they realise that with this importation of cheap gas and cheap oil they are killing the mining industry and creating a position in which there will be serious trouble if something is not done about it by the Government?

I do not accept, nor does the National Coal Board, that we are killing the mining industry, nor that we should deny that there are possibilities of a cheaper source of supply.

Do I understand that there were consultations between the Ministry and the Gas Council over the development of methane? The Ministry is responsible for fuel and power. Are there to be consultations with the National Coal Board, the Generating Board and all who supply fuel and power?

The Gas Council asked permission to carry out certain experiments which we considered to be of a highly enterprising character, and my noble Friend was quite right to give it permission to do so.

asked the Paymaster-General how many shipments of liquid methane have been brought to this country; whereabouts this is being stored; and whether he is satisfied that all precautions have been taken in the interests of safety.

Two trial shipments have been landed, and much of the liquid methane has been used. Temporary storage is at Canvey Island. Safety is receiving paramount consideration at all stages of the experiment.

Whilst recognising that this is an experiment which has new dangers, because of the concern there is about it, will the right hon. Gentleman inform the House, first, what the dangers are both in transport and storage, and, secondly, in view of the questions which have been asked, will he inform the House of the coal equivalent of these shipments?

I think I have already answered the point about coal equivalent, but I could not give that offhand. This is a delicate experiment and we are gaining experience on how better to handle it with complete safety.

asked the Paymaster-General what estimate he has made of the effect on coal consumption by the operation of the Clean Air Act; and what estimate he has made of the increased use of electricity, gas and oil in all the declared clean air zones.

It is too early in the operation of the Clean Air Act to make any such estimates.

Does not the right hon, Gentleman agree that the Beaver Report estimated that there would be 8 million tons of smokeless fuel suitable for open grates under the application of the Clean Air Act? In view of the success the National Coal Board in its process development department claims to have had in discovering several new processes for the manufacture of smokeless fuel from small coal, can the right hon. Gentleman say what support will be given to the Board by his noble Friend?

The question was about coal consumption, but smokeless fuels, such as gas and electricity, are derived from coal. I think the National Coal Board is doing a very good job in trying to develop smokeless fuels from coal.

asked the Paymaster-General to what experimental stations for the study of methods of low temperature carbonisation of coal he is now giving assistance in Scotland; what are the processes under study; and whether, in view of the availability of suitable coal locally, he will assist the establishment of such an experimental station in the region of Douglas, Lanarkshire.

None, Sir. Research into a variety of carbonisation processes is being actively pursued at research stations of the National Coal Board and the gas industry, and by some private firms. Subject to such recommendations as may be made by the Committee recently appointed by my noble Friend under the Chairmanship of Mr. A. H. Wilson, he is satisfied that adequate facilities for research already exist.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there are considerable reserves of suitable coal for the Holford process of low temperature carbonisation at Coalburn and at Douglas Water, near Douglas, in my constituency? Would he be prepared to look at a project which has been worked out for putting that coal to good and lasting use in the making of smokeless fuel, gas and oil?

My information is that there are no coals of suitable quality available in the region of Douglas, though there are suitable coals available elsewhere in Lanarkshire. I shall be happy to look at any project which my hon. Friend cares to put forward.

asked the Paymaster-General, following the decision to reduce substantially the output of opencast coal, resulting in sites having been handed back to their owners, for what purpose consent has been given to further prospecting for opencast coal on the Henry Street site, Ripley.

The National Coal Board is prospecting this site under an authority issued in August, 1958, that is before the decision to reduce opencast coal output was taken. The Board has no present plans for working the site.

Can the Minister say for what purpose opencast workings are being handed back to the former owners of the land while prospecting for opencast sites is still taking place? Does not he appreciate the disturbance and anxiety to local authorities when there is prospecting and the possibility that, in the event, it may be necessary to work new sites?

I thought it was the argument of those opposed to the continuance of opencast coal mining that opencast coal should be regarded only as a reserve, and I think there is a lot in the argument. That being so, I consider that prospecting should continue so that the National Coal Board may have the fullest possible picture of the available resources.

Will the right hon. Gentleman notify local authorities, whose permission is sought to carry out prospecting for opencast sites, that the prospecting is merely in order to make provision for work which may perhaps not be carried out for many years? Is he aware that prospecting is going on now in South Yorkshire within two or three miles of four collieries, all of which are producing a million tons of coal a year, and does he expect that to act as a boost to the morale of the mineworkers?

There are further Questions on the Order Paper regarding the policy of opencast mining. From statements made by the Government about the future rundown and the actual working of opencast coal, I hope that local authorities have been made aware that the prospecting going on is from the point of view of establishing existing reserves and not the immediate practical working of the coal.

asked the Paymaster- General how many opencast coal sites will be worked during 1960; and what run down in the number of sites is planned between 1960 and 1965.

asked the Paymaster- General how many opencast coal sites are being worked at the present time in Yorkshire; what reduction of workings is planned in the area during 1960, 1961, 1962 and 1963; and what is the estimated production during these years.

asked the Paymaster- General how many opencast coal sites are being worked at the present time in Scotland; what reduction of workings is planned in the area during 1960, 1961, 1962 and 1963; and what is the estimated production during these years.

asked the Paymaster-General (1) how many opencast coal sites are being worked at the present time in Lancashire; what reduction of workings is planned in the area during 1960, 1961, 1962 and 1963; and what is the estimated production during these years;

asked the Paymaster- General how many opencast coal sites are being worked at the present time in Wales; what reduction of workings is planned in the area during 1960, 1961. 1962 and 1963; and what is the estimated production during these years.

asked the Paymaster-General how many opencast coal sites are being worked at the present time in Nottinghamshire; what reduction of workings is planned in 1960, 1961, 1962 and 1963; and what is the estimated production during these years.

asked the Paymaster- General how many opencast coal sites are being worked at the present time in Derbyshire; what reduction of workings is planned in the area during 1960, 1961, 1962 and 1963; and what is the estimated production during these years.

asked the Paymaster-General how many opencast coal sites are being worked at the present time in Durham; what reduction of workings is planned in the area during 1960, 1961, 1962 and 1963; and what is the estimated production during these years.

asked the Paymaster-General how many opencast coal sites are being worked at the present time in Northumberland; what reduction of workings is planned in the area during 1960, 1961, 1962 and 1963; and what is the estimated production during these years.

asked the Paymaster- General how many opencast coal sites are being worked at the present time in Cumberland; what reduction of workings is planned in the area during 1960, 1961, 1962 and 1963; and what is the estimated production during these years.

On 1st June, 1959, coal was being won from 110 opencast sites. I am circulating in the OFFICIAL RFPORT a table which gives the number of sites in each of the main producing areas. The National Coal Board intends to reduce opencast coal output to about 7 million tons in 1960 and, unless circumstances change so as to call for a reconsideration of the position, plans a further substantial fall in later years. The Board is still working out the details of this reduced programme.

While appreciating that point, may I ask whether the Minister is not aware that his Answer is really unsatisfactory? Is it not a fact that the rundown can be accelerated considerably, thereby giving the land back to farmers, to improve the agricultural industry and beautify the countryside?

I doubt whether I could argue the merits and demerits of opencast working very satisfactorily at Question Time. There are very strong arguments on either side. I have endeavoured to give the House the information for which I was asked.

In this intended rundown of opencast sites, will the right, hon. Gentleman make it transparently clear to local authorities and others that no new sites will be opened in 1960–61?

I have already made a statement to the House setting out, I hope very clearly, the decision about the working of sites in the future. I will consider whether further publicity should be given to the position.

Is the Minister aware that in the last twelve months new sites have actually been developed in Yorkshire? I cannot ask a supplementary question on the original Question because he has not given us any figures for Yorkshire. But these sites have been developed in near proximity to deep mines, and is it not time that we decided not to develop any more sites and actually stopped those that are not yet fully developed?

The National Coal Board is running down pretty rapidly the production of opencast coal. There are very weighty reasons, which cannot be developed now, why the National Coal Board should not go faster than it actually is going.

asked the Paymaster-General what general directions have been given to the National Coal Board with regard to coal prices.

None, Sir.

Does that mean that, subject to financial considerations, the National Coal Board can vary the price of coal as it thinks fit, that no restriction of any kind is placed on its commercial activities regarding the prices revealed by the Minister?

As the right hon. Gentleman is well aware, it means that under the nationalisation Statute this matter of commercial policy is primarily for the National Coal Board. But, of course, the Gentleman's Agreement exists, and is well known to the House, whereby the Coal Board consult the Government before increasing the price of coal. There is no restriction which applies to a reduction in coal prices.

Does that mean that the Board would enter into negotiations and consultations with the Minister regarding a possible reduction in the price levels of certain kinds of coal?

I cannot imagine any Government ever objecting to a reduction in the price of coal.

Answer the question.

Does not this mean that the Board is completely free from the obligation, to which it has been held by successive Governments and which it has observed, that it will not make any price changes without consulting the Government?

That was not so at all. As I understand it, the obligation on the Board was to consult the Government before making a general increase in coal prices. Any Government would surely welcome a reduction in coal prices. There is the particular problem of the statutory obligation on the Coal Board which hampers its ability to reduce prices in certain circumstances.

Since I understand that the Government's policy is that the Coal Board must fend for itself in competition with other coal supplies, the Board might find that it is already getting lower prices than it should from some consumers and perhaps it is charging more to others. Therefore, is it not essential that the Board should have a completely free hand?

I think the limitation on the National Coal Board's commercial policy arises from two things. One is the gentleman's agreement about the National Coal Board seeking approval from and consulting the Government before there is any general increase in pithead prices, and the other is the statutory obligation, arising from the Nationalisation Act, whereby it must not give undue preference in the course of settling its coal prices.

Can we get this matter clear? Surely the National Coal Board is constantly in unofficial touch with the Government. Surely it does not pursue its policy in complete separation from the Ministry of Power, except in regard to rises in price?

We are in constant consultation with the National Coal Board on all these matters.

In view of the replies which the right hon. Gentleman has now given to Questions put to him on this matter, would he not like to look at some of the Answers which he has given to previous Questions and compare them? He may realise—I mean no offence by this—that he has misled the House of Commons.

I think that my Answers are consistent both with my previous Answers and with the right hon. Gentleman's own Act.

asked the Paymaster-General to what extent he estimates that there will be economic expansion and an increase of industrial production between 1960 and 1965; what subsequent increase there will be in the demand for coal; and to what extent this will substantially reduce United Kingdom coal stocks.

I would ask the hon. Member to await the National Coal Board's revised estimates of the future demand for and production of coal which it will be submitting to my noble Friend in the near future as part of its review of its long-term plans.

Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the first part of my Question and say to what extent he estimates there will be economic expansion?

I think that question would be proper to put to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but it has been a great deal more than it was under the party opposite.

Is it not impossible for the National Coal Board to give an intelligent answer about the expansion of its industry until it knows what the Government expect in general expansion of industry?

Does the right hon. Member not realise that the Government cannot tell the National Coal Board for certain how much coal will be wanted unless they are prepared to tell consumers to use coal when they do not want it.

On the other hand, is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the Coal Board cannot do that until it gets information, or at least solicits information, as to what the Government think desirable in fuel economy? Is he not aware that there has been stagnation and the industry has been approximately at zero in the main? What are we to do for expansion in industry generally?

I think the hon. Member is a few months late with his supplementary question.

asked the Paymaster-General what consultations he has had with local authorities regarding early declaration of clean air zones to the National Coal Board, and the need for them to estimate the amount of smokeless fuel required.

At an early stage in each smoke control area proposal, the local authority's estimates of additional requirements of smokeless fuels are referred to regional advisory committees, which meet under the chairmanship of the senior regional officers of the Ministry of Power, to advise on the supply possibilities. The National Coal Board is represented on these committees.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are various domestic complications arising from this problem? I think he will agree that the minutest inquiries and consultations should take place as there are many difficulties here. I feel convinced that many local authorities think of making smokeless zones regardless of the domestic difficulties. Is it not an accepted fact that, from whatever channel it may be decided to extract smokeless fuel, we cannot get sufficient supplies to comply with the Regulations?

If the hon. Member has any occasion in mind where the supply has been deficient, I shall be glad to have the details.

How many clean air zones have been established? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that when a local authority declares a clean air zone many people in the zone think that coal is a banned fuel and publicity is lacking in this matter? First, there should be earlier consultation; secondly, the local authority ought to give the Coal Board plenty of notice of intention to declare a zone; and, thirdlly, people in the zone should be conversant with the fact that coal can be used as a smokeless fuel.

There is a great deal in that as a statement of objective. We are doing what we can with local authorities to increase publicity on the matter.

asked the Paymaster-General what general direction he has given to the National Coal Board recently on the level of future production required for home consumption and export.

None, Sir.

Is not the Paymaster-General aware that most mining engineers consider it impossible for the National Coal Board to plan far ahead in its mining operations without being given some idea of what is required of it?