asked the Minister of Education on what grounds projects for the erection of science buildings at the Slough Grammar School and for the extension of Baylis Court County Secondary School, Slough, have been excluded from the building programmes for 1960–61 and 1961–62.

I agree that the science buildings at Slough Grammar School are one of the improvements which should be made as soon as possible, and I regret that other essential projects have had to be placed above them in the first two years of the five-year programme. The local education authority did not ask for extensions to the Baylis Court School to be carried out in 1960–62.

In view of the expansion of Slough industries and the necessity for scientific contribution towards their development, will the Minister give very early priority to the proposal that there should be an extension of the science buildings at the grammar school?

I agree that they are needed, and I have told the authority that I will look sympathetically at the project in the 1962–63 programme.

Can the Minister say by what amount he cut the estimate submitted by the Buckinghamshire County Council?

The authority submitted thirty-eight projects with a total value of £2·85 million. Twenty-one of those, with a total value of about £1,750,000, have been included.

asked the Minister of Education what contribution his Department is making to the cost of enlarging and equipping dining room and kitchen of the Slough technical school.

The authority had underestimated the number of children taking dinners. The whole cost of the extension will be met by my Department.

But is not it the case that in its original plan for this building the authority included an extended dining room and kitchen, and that it was the economy policy of the Government which caused its reduction? Is not the fact that an extension is now being made an example of the stupidity of the economy policy of the Government?

The hon. Member has not got his facts right. When the school was built the size of the dining room accommodation was not reduced by my Department.

asked the Minister of Education when he expects the new school at North Sommercotes, Lincolnshire, to be completed and opened; and why this project has been delayed.

I know that this school is badly needed. It has been included in the building programme for 1961–62 and should be ready by 1963. It had to give way to other urgent projects in the Authority's programme for the coming year.

Is the Minister aware that many people living in country districts feel that their children are not getting as fair a share of good educational chances as are children living in towns? Will he try to ensure that there is a fairer balance for people living in rural areas?

Yes. It is certainly my intention to provide a fair balance. I will consider the area with which my hon. Friend is concerned.

asked the Minister of Education if he will set up a committee to examine the merits and demerits of the 11-plus examination and to report on ways and means of providing equality of opportunity in secondary education for all children.

No, Sir. The best means of providing equality of opportunity is to make all secondary schools good in their various ways. This is the objective of the Government's White Paper on Secondary Education.

That Answer is all very fine, except that the Minister of Education is cutting down the building programme for secondary schools. Does not he consider that dissatisfaction with and criticism of the 11-plus selective examination is now well-nigh universal and that more and more education authorities, irrespective of the nature of their political control, are endeavouring to find ways and means of avoiding it? In the circumstances, would not it be a good idea for the Minister to set up a committee to give some guidance on the best way in which it might be done?

In the first place, it is not trué that the secondary school programme is being cut down; it is bigger now than ever before. Secondly, many interesting experiments are being made by different local authorities. These we are watching. We are comparing all the results as they come in, and making them available to other local authorities. I think that this is the best way to proceed.

We welcome these attempts to get rid of the 11-plus examination, but does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that what is most objectionable is the fact of segregation at the age of 11 rather than the method by which it is carried out? Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that it is the Government's policy to get rid of segregation at the age of 11?

I could not possibly give a sweeping assurance of that kind.

asked the Minister of Education to what extent the number and proportion of children who have passed their fifteenth birthdays and are staying on at school have exceeded the expectations and estimates of the education authorities this year; and what special steps he is taking to provide additional places in the secondary schools.

The number of pupils aged 15 in maintained schools in January, 1959, corresponded closely with the estimate made the year before. Sufficient places have been provided and the building programme for secondary schools is now larger than at any previous time.

Has the Minister examined the figures for the last few years, which show—and it is a well-known fact—that up to now an increased number have been staying on beyond the fifteenth birthday? While it is natural that secondary school programmes should be difficult, because there are far more children at secondary schools, is he sure that provision is being made for an additional proportion of children to stay on beyond the age of 15?

We were out in the estimate by only 4,000, which is extraordinarily small, considering the difficulty of making an estimate. All my predecessors, including myself, have always been ready to approve proposals to provide for the increased numbers of pupils over the age of 15, and we shall continue doing so.

Can the Minister tell the House whether he has made inquiries to discover how many children would stay on after the age of 15 if an adequate maintenance allowance were made available to them?

That is a very difficult inquiry to make, because it is impossible to find out what percentage of parents would so decide, but there is no doubt that allowances are one of the important factors.

asked the Minister of Education if he is aware of the concern arising from the decision of his Department to reduce extensively the proposals of the Kent County Council for building urgently needed primary schools in 1960–61 and 1961–62; in view of this, why such action was taken; and when he anticipates action will be permissible to catch up on the programme in keeping with modern needs and in accordance with policy outlined in the Government's White Paper on education.

On a point of order. May I point out, Mr. Speaker, that line 3 of my Question should read "primary and secondary schools"?

I regret that the Answer, of course, is based upon the Question as printed.

The most urgent task is to provide secondary schools. Nevertheless, 13 primary school projects asked for by the Kent Local Education Authority can start in 1960–62 in addition to 20 secondary school projects. I know there has been some disappointment about proposals which must wait, but it was not intended nor in terms of building capacity would it have been possible to start the whole of the five-year programme in the first two years.

While I can appreciate that the Minister is pleased that the word "secondary" is not in my Question, may I ask if he is aware of the terrific disappointment which has been caused in Kent in that he has eliminated in a ruthless fashion many urgently needed schools, and, in particular, stage one of the Picardy Secondary School for Girls at Erith? In view of what he has done in Kent, does he not think it is making a mockery of the Government's White Paper? Is he aware that, before long, representations will be made from both sides of the House about the disgraceful way in which he has wielded the axe with regard to Kent?

I certainly cannot accept any of those statements. When my predecessor quite rightly decided upon a five-year programme, of course it was an invitation to all the local authorities to ask in the first place for a start on all the schools in that programme. We knew that would happen, but we thought that the advantages of being able to plan over five years would outweigh the complaints that I think we are bound to receive.

Is the Minister aware that this proposal would replace the worst secondary school in the county, and that he has eliminated it?

Order. I called the hon. Gentleman to ask his next Question.

All right, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory Answer, I beg to give notice that I will raise this matter on the Motion for the Adjournment as soon as possible. Question No. 9.

asked the Minister of Education the sums submitted to him by the Kent Education Committee for the building of primary and secondary schools, respectively, in the next two years; and the amounts he has approved.

The local education authority submitted proposals costing £811,000 for primary schools and £2,529,000 for secondary schools. I have approved projects amounting to £522,000 and £1,555,000 respectively. These will enable the authority to provide the additional places needed and to make a substantial start on the improvement of secondary schools.

Do not these figures make nonsense of the statement last week by the Parliamentary Secretary that the White Paper proposals were fundamentally sound? Here is a county which states its minimum requirements—it is a county not given to rashness, but its requirements have been cut by almost half—and a county which does not believe that the White Paper proposals will allow it to achieve its minimum requirements. Therefore, will the Minister review his proposals, and allow a number of schemes to go ahead which would be more in keeping with the minimum?

No I will not—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—because there is all the difference in the world between programmes which the local authorities put forward and would like to carry out, and those which they are capable of doing over a five-year period. Naturally, if a local authority wants to start building schools and puts proposals forward to me and I have to turn them down because I know the programme is beyond their resources—

Why turn them down?

—I have to postpone them—the responsibility is then on the Minister. If I were a member of a local authority I would do much the same thing.

Is not what is happening in Kent typical of what is happening in the country as a whole? Is not it a fact that of schemes submitted by local authorities totalling £117 million, only £55 million have been allowed by the Government?

The point is that we can do only this £400 million worth of work in the five years, according to the building capacity which we foresee. It is sensible to plan that out over the period. But that does not mean that local authorities do not try to get in a maximum number of their plans during the earlier years of the programme. We have to tell them that some of their plans must be postponed.

asked the Minister of Education if he is aware of the concern in Kent at the limitations in the facilities for training teachers, in view of the teacher shortage; and what is going to be done to meet this situation.

A new training college is being built at Canterbury as part of the expansion programme. I recognise the anxiety about the future supply of teachers and, as I told the hon. Member for Stockton-on-Tees (Mr. Chetwynd) on 1st November, I am at present reviewing the various means by which the number of teachers might be further increased

asked the Minister of Education, in view of the statement made at the Kent County Council Education Committee at Maidstone on Monday 26th October that, at a school in Kent, only one text book is available for every three pupils, if he will make inquiries with a view to the situation being remedied as soon as possible.

I am informed that the statement quoted is not accurate. The headmaster said, I understand, that he had not enough suitable books to set homework for all pupils capable of doing it.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that I am aware of the facts, and that the purpose of putting this Question on the Order Paper was to get the matter put right? It is being put right, but, nevertheless, I thank him for his interest.

asked the Minister of Education how far it is proposed to increase the grants for the establishment of youth clubs.

Proposals to increase the resources available to the Youth Service will be made when the recommendations of the Albemarle Committee have been studied. I hope to receive the Committee's Report in a day or two.

While welcoming that statement, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he is aware of the very serious problem in new towns and large housing estates, where there are no youth clubs, and where the youngsters tend to spend their non-school hours on the streets? Would he consider, particularly, the possibility of using school accommodation in the evenings for the establishment of youth clubs, and give assistance for that purpose?

We will certainly consider all ways and means but, of course, if secondary schools have the accommodation, it is used by school clubs themselves. It is not always a very simple problem.

The Minister has said that he expects to receive the Report in a day or two. Can he say when it will be published and made available to the House?

In January, I hope.

asked the Minister of Education, in view of the concern of the Urban District Council of Feltham, and of parents in this area, at the deletion from the education building programme of the Sparrow Farm primary school and the extensions to the Longford county secondary school, if he will reconsider these two items, with a view to the re-instatement of both projects in the 1960–62 school-building programme.

Both these projects are desirable, but they have had to give way to others urgently needed in Middlesex and elsewhere.

Is the Minister aware that there is a deep feeling of disappointment in my constituency on this matter? Both these building projects are urgently needed. Will he reconsider the matter, with a view to reinstating them in the 1961–62 school-building programme?

I do not think that there is much chance of doing it in the immediate future, but we will do it as soon as we can.

In view of that reply, I beg to give notice that I will endeavour to raise this matter on the Motion for the Adjournment at an early opportunity.

asked the Minister of Education if he will now approve an enlargement of the school-building programme for Newcastle-under-Lyme for 1960–61 and 1961–62, so as to include more of the projects put forward by the local education committee and take special account of the 5 per cent. fall in the last five years in the proportion of Newcastle-under-Lyme children for whom grammar places have been available.

No, Sir. I have already approved the only one of the projects put forward for Newcastle-under-Lyme which would increase grammar school accommodation.

While thanking the Minister for including that one, may I ask if he is aware that the Newcastle-under-Lyme Education Committee has put forward only the most urgent projects required year by year for the next three or four years? I think I am right in saying that less than half of them have been approved by his Ministry, which has cut the proposals by 50 per cent. As that programme is clearly inadequate, will not it lead to a further aggravation of the overcrowding in secondary schools?

I think there are some other grammar schools which are going up at Biddulph, Cheadle and Kidsgrove that will assist to remedy the difficulties in the hon. Gentleman's district.

What about the secondary modern schools?

asked the Minister of Education if, in view of the need to enrol as many students as possible in the teacher training colleges for 1960, he will authorise the payment of dependants' allowances to these students, where appropriate, for two- and three-year courses.

I am looking into this.

Will the Minister endeavour to make a decision on this matter fairly quickly, as he will appreciate that in the next month the students will be applying for places for the coming year, and many students will be debarred from taking teacher training college places unless they can have some allowance for their dependants?

I am aware of the urgency.

To ask the Minister of Education, if he has yet received the report of the Anderson Committee; and if he will make a statement.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I submitted a Question to the Table in terms almost identical to those of Question No. 17. It was disallowed on the ground that it had been previously answered in this Session. I am wondering why that Question was disallowed while this one has been allowed.

I cannot answer the hon. Member straight away. I shall have to look into the matter and then I will do so. Wing Commander Bullus.

He is not present.

asked the Minister of Education what percentage increase during the current year there has been in the minor works allocation for school-building in England and Wales when compared with last year; and the comparable figure for Hertfordshire.

An exact comparison is not possible, since the allocations covered different kinds of projects and periods of different lengths. But my noble Friend might like to know that the increase was of the order of 60 per cent. over the country as a whole, and about 30 per cent. in Hertfordshire.

How can my right hon. Friend justify the great discrepancy between an increase of 60 per cent. for the country as a whole and only 30 per cent. for Hertfordshire? Is he aware that many educational projects in Hertfordshire are being held up, and will he look at this application again?

I will look at it but, if my memory serves me right, the Hertfordshire authority got on faster and better than some—

But it should not be penalised.

—and perhaps it has done more work in the past.

asked the Minister of Education whether, in view of the fact that no planning permission has been given for the use of the Congregational Church Hall at Rochford for teaching pupils of the Rochford Secondary School, and that this accommodation is considered unsuitable for this purpose by teachers, parents, the rural district council and the divisional education committee, he will discuss with the Essex Education Authority the immediate cessation of its use and, pending the building of a proper school, the provision of adequate alternative accommodation, possibly in the form of demountable classrooms.

The Essex local education authority already has in hand the provision of new accommodation which will enable it to give up this hall by next April.

I wonder whether the Minister is correctly informed about this, because the view of the divisional executive concerned is that, until the new school is built, the present provision is quite inadequate. May I ask whether an inspector of his Department has been to see this most unsatisfactory accommodation?

Yes, these conditions are well known to the Ministry and we agree that the hall now in use is not satisfactory. I am advised that the education authority has these plans in hand to enable it to give up the use of the hall altogether largely in the terms which I described to my hon. Friend a few days ago.

Is the Minister aware that this hall has no wall windows, that the lavatory conditions are deplorable and that the local planning committee has refused its consent for the building to be used for education at all? Is he aware that both teachers and parents are demanding that this be treated as a matter of supreme urgency?

We are aware of those conditions and we are trying to get the children out of the hall as quickly as possible.

asked the Minister of Education, as representing the Minister for Science, what steps are being taken by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research to encourage research into shipbuilding methods.

The Department of Scientific and Industrial Research is now discussing with the British Shipbuilding Research Association, to which it gives a grant-in-aid, ways in which research could be extended to construction methods and shipyard practice with the object of improving productivity.

Does that Answer mean that the right hon. Gentleman's noble Friend is aware that there is very little research into shipbuilding methods in this country, as well as far too little employment of scientifically qualified staff, so that it is extremely difficult to introduce radical new methods into shipbuilding, as well as machines such as the new computor-controlled plate-cutting machine, which has been developed in my constituency?

My noble Friend is taking an urgent and personal interest in this matter.

asked the Minister of Education, as representing the Minister for Science, to what extent there is co-operation between the United Kingdom and Canada in matters affecting research and development in the field of atomic energy; and if he will make a statement.

There has always been very close co-operation with Canada on atomic research and development. Meetings and exchanges of staff and information between our people and the Canadians, take place constantly.

Is the Minister aware that an Agreement has recently been signed between Canada and Euratom from which we seem to be excluded? Will it not be serious if we keep out of Europe, in order to retain the Commonwealth contact, and Canada and other Commonwealth countries unite with Europe and leave us out in the cold?

We already have our Agreement with Euratom. I am not aware that the Canadians have one on any different footing, but I will make inquiries.

asked the Minister of Education, as representing the Minister for Science, what further Government aid he proposes to give the machine-tool industry in order to encourage an extension of research and development as proposed in the recent survey by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research.

Discussions are now taking place on the recommendations of the D.S.I.R. Report to which the hon. Member refers. The Department is always ready to consider proposals for the support of research and development which are likely to lead to results of value to the nation as a whole.

In that case, will the right hon. Gentleman say why there is so much secrecy about the conclusions in the Report as distinct from the evidence? Is it because the Report shows that under the present Tory administration there has been a serious decline in output, orders and relative quality of design? In those circumstances, will not he initiate a public inquiry into a grave matter of public importance?

My noble Friend is looking into this matter. I can tell the hon. Gentleman only that from my experience, such as it was, at the Board of Trade I consider that the machine-tool industry has a good record in the export trade.

Is the Minister aware that, from the point of view of percentages of world exports, the German figure for exports of machine tools is two-and-a-half times more than ours, the American figure is double, the Swiss rather more, and that Japan and Russia are now catching up?

It depends on what basis one starts. Some of these countries produced practically nothing directly after the war.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what recent discussions he has had with the Welland River Board on the need to control that river and, in particular, to prevent a recurrence of the flooding of the centre of Market Harborough; and if he will make a statement.

My Ministry is in close touch with the Welland River Board, which has, I understand, just completed a survey of the area concerned at Market Harborough and is now working on schemes for the alleviation of flooding.

Is the Minister aware that the centre of Market Harborough has been flooded on no fewer than twenty-nine occasions since 1927, that the last two inundations were the worst, and that urgent action is considered necessary to protect householders, hoteliers and shop keepers against this almost annual flooding?

I am aware of the special difficulties in this case, but of course the responsibility is that of the river board. We are willing to help in any way we can, but the initiation of any scheme must rest with the board.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what consideration he has given to lowering the acreage limit under the Small Farmer Scheme; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what proposals he has for changing the basis of qualification for assistance under the Small Farmer Scheme in order to achieve a more equitable test.

I have already undertaken to review the present limits of eligibility for the Small Farmer Scheme in the light of the first year or two of operation. I intend to do this but we must gain more experience of the Scheme, which began only at the end of March.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. May I ask him to say a word of praise for the N.A.A.S., which has done so much to implement this Scheme? When he is considering the Scheme will he bear in mind that it is a scheme for small farmers and as such it would be better to bring down the lower acreage limit and the man-day limit as a start?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his generous tribute to my advisory staff. I think that hon. Members on both sides of the House would agree that they have done a good job with this rather complicated Scheme. I do not intend to be drawn on the second part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question, because these are things about which I wish to learn from experience rather than to have any preconceived idea.

May I associate myself with the words of the hon. Member for Torrington (Mr. P. Browne) in praise of the Advisory Service? I hope that will not embarrass hon. Members opposite. I acknowledge the help that this Scheme has been for the small farmer. May I ask that, when he is making this revaluation, the right hon. Gentleman will consider the number of small farmers whose hard work is excluded from the operation of this Scheme, and also the possibility of substituting the true rental value of the farm as being a more equitable basis of calculation for assistance under the Scheme?

The hon. Gentleman was not a member of the House when we discussed in great detail various methods and techniques which were put forward by hon. Members from both sides. I came to the conclusion that we had got the right answer. I do not believe that the hon. Gentleman's suggestion would have much advantage over the present system and I am certain that there would be more complications regarding the administration of the Scheme.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the cost of preparing and presenting to Parliament the Order, dated 2nd November, 1959, authorising the landing at Bromborough of one wart-hog; and whether, in the interests of economy, he will consider simplifying the regulations with regard to the importation of animals into this country.

The total cost of preparing, duplicating and publishing the Order and presenting it to Parliament is estimated at £14, and of this the cost of presentation to Parliament is about £1. For disease reasons the importation of animals must be controlled. The present procedure seems to work well at no great cost to public funds and I do not think there is much to be said for amending legislation.

Does not the hon. Gentleman think that he ought not to clutter up Order Papers with Orders of this description for one single animal? Might not he have included at least one or two others of the same genus phacochœrus at the time he was making this Order?

I am sorry the hon. Member thinks we were cluttering up the Order Paper. I think it was a valuable thing to bring before Parliament the notable introduction of this animal. After all, there are only a few and we had only seven of these Orders last year. Parliament does not mind being enlightened on these things.

Why was this animal detained in the nurseries?

It was detained for a period of quarantine and, so far as I am aware, the animal itself did not object at all to that procedure.

Why was this wart-hog imported? Is my hon. Friend aware of the urgent need to develop the wart-hog industry of this country? Is he aware that wart-hogs should be treated with great sympathy because they are highly sensitive about being wart-hogs?

I am grateful for my hon. Friend's concern in this matter. I shall certainly take the greatest interest in the future career of this particular wart-hog and, if necessary, will keep him informed.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will introduce amending legislation to enable buildings which, if they were erected by individual farmers, would qualify for a grant under the Agriculture Act, 1957, to be eligible if erected by farmers' co-operatives or farmers' machinery syndicates.

My hon. Friend's idea has its attractions, but I am afraid I cannot at present hold out prospects of introducing new legislation.

Will not my right hon. Friend agree that he has found it possible to include co-operatives among the bodies which may get grants of public money for buildings and so on under the Horticulture Bill, the Second Reading of which is to be moved today? If it is possible for horticulturists, why should not it be possible for other kinds of agriculturists also?

As I told my hon. Friend, this idea has its attractions; but, according to the legislation passed by this House in the Agriculture Act, 1957, I am not entitled to help in the way he suggests. On the other hand, it would not be impossible to have legislation at a future date, but I cannot give any guarantee about it.

Will the right hon. Gentleman undertake to look at this matter sympathetically in view of the number of co-operatives and because, as he said, we want to learn from experience? We all agree about that. Will he consider publishing a White Paper on the Farm Improvement Scheme and the Small Farmer Scheme so that we may see how they are working and possibly suggest improvements?

I shall certainly consider what the hon. Member has said.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how many slaughterhouses have been opened or reopened under the terms and Regulations of the Slaughterhouses Act, 1958; and how many of these are classed as small, medium and large, respectively.

It is too soon to have any statistics on the effect of this legislation. As the hon. Gentleman knows, under Regulations recently laid, my right hon. Friend will obtain statistics about slaughterhouses, but these will not be available for at least twelve months.

Are we to understand from that that the Minister has not the faintest idea what applications are being made, what local authorities are doing, or how many slaughterhouses are being built all over the country?

No, I do not think the hon. Member should understand that. My right hon. Friend knows a great deal about what is happening. We want to get all the statistics collated as a whole, but I am satisfied with the progress that is being made. I have had the pleasure of opening a few of these slaughterhouses which were built as a result of the Act of 1958, and I know they are a great improvement on the old ones.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether, in view of the present difficulties in the bacon-pig industry, he will take steps, well in advance of the next Annual Price Review, to separate the guarantees for pork and bacon pigs sold for deadweight.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether, in view of the threat of extinction to the British bacon industry, he will take immediate steps to separate the guarantees given to bacon producers from those given to other pig producers.

I have received representations from all sides of the pig industry, both for and against the introduction of separate price guarantees for bacon pigs. I am giving full consideration to all these very varied opinions.

Could my right hon. Friend go further? Is he aware that the British curing industry is fast losing ground in its small share of the British bacon market? Is he aware that British bacon-pig producers are fearful that they will be ruined unless some statement of policy is made and some decision taken well in advance of the February Price Review?

We have to be very careful what we say. I do not think the facts quite bear out the implication of what my hon. Friend has said. The House should be aware of these two facts. The bacon factories in Great Britain slaughtered as many pigs in the first ten months of 1959 as in the first ten months of 1958. We also have to bear in mind that the average return for graded pigs at bacon factories over the new farming period, April to October, was 45s. 10d. per score, compared with the price for other pigs of 45s. 8d. In other words, bacon producers were slightly better off than producers of pork-pigs and pigs for manufacturing purposes.

The right hon. Gentleman will recognise that this does not allay the real anxiety. Can he undertake to make a very early statement in the House on the steps he proposes to take?

No, Sir. I purposely answered my hon. Friend to show that we have to get these things into perspective. I realise that the specialist bacon producer is not having an easy time at the moment, but the hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey) has been connected with agriculture for long enough to know that the right decision requires very careful thought, and I think that hasty action would be most unwise.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how many arsenical weed-killers are at present banned under his regulations.

My right hon. Friend has no statutory powers to ban the agricultural use of such substances, but he is carefully considering the position of arsenite sprays under the voluntary notification scheme operated in conjunction with the agricultural chemical industry for securing the safe use of toxic chemicals.

Has my hon. Friend noted the experience of the widespread use of these sprays in the United States? Will he consider making some kind of regulation as to the use of these sprays, because they seem to be very dangerous indeed—for example, if they are sprayed from low-flying aircraft?

Yes, I would not minimise the dangers at all. My right hon. Friend said in reply to a Question last week that he hoped to make a statement soon on this matter. I should be grateful if my hon. Friend would leave the matter there for the moment.

Does the inquiry which is taking place include the possible pollution of reservoirs as a result of the use use of these sprays?

Yes, that has been taken account of.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, as representing the Minister for Science, what research is currently being undertaken to study the cumulative effects on human, animal and plant life of the unrestricted use of chemicals in agriculture.

Three units of the Medical Research Council are engaged on research into the effects on human health, both acute and cumulative, of chemicals used in agriculture. Some of their findings have been published.

The effect on animals and plants is the subject of research at Agricultural Research Council stations, and research into the effect on wild life has been planned by the Nature Conservancy. These studies are closely inter-connected. Research is also carried out by the manufacturers.

Will my hon. Friend ask his noble Friend to support some of the private or hitherto privately-conducted researches into this question? One experiment I am thinking of in particular is the Haughley Research Project, which has been going on for ten years and is full of information, but is in danger of being lost sight of owing to lack of funds.

I shall call that to the attention of my noble Friend and I am sure he will give it consideration.

Is my hon. Friend aware of the great concern among bee keepers in this country about destruction of bees and does he realise that this does damage not only to bee keepers but to the fertilisation of plants? If he likes, I will bring a deputation of angry bees to see him about it.

I shall be very happy to see my hon. Friend, but as to his constituents I shall have to consider that. I would remind him that we are hoping to discuss this matter tomorrow and we shall welcome his contribution to the debate.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will make a statement on Government policy with regard to the creation and financing of a National Theatre Company which shall work mainly in the provinces, Scotland and Wales; and when he proposes to establish it.

My right hon. Friend has recently invited the Arts Council to review the priority which should be given to the National Theatre in current circumstances and to advise him on the form which such an enterprise might most appropriately take. I cannot, of course, anticipate its recommendations.

Is that really a satisfactory reply? Is it not fairly apparent that, without asking advice from anyone at all at this stage, the Treasury has made up its mind as to the desirability of the steps suggested in this Question? Have we not had some hint from the Treasury that it is so satisfied? When are we to have a National Theatre Company? Cannot we have it soon?

I think my right hon. Friend is right in feeling that the best means of dealing with this matter, in which I know of the hon. Member's concern, is for the Arts Council to consider the whole question of priorities within a limited total expenditure. I am sure that is the right way to approach the matter.

Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind, and impress on his right hon. Friend, that, unless something is done about the formation of a National Theatre Company to work in the provinces, very shortly there will be no theatres left in the provinces for a theatre company to act in?

That question raises rather wider issues, but I am sure my right bon. Friend and the Arts Council will take note of the views expressed this afternoon.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer his proposals for the formation and financing of an official Sports Council.

This suggestion will be considered by my colleagues concerned and myself as part of the Government's review of recreational facilities both for young people and others.

When will that review take place? How soon may we expect some information? Will the Minister bear in mind that there is an organisation called the Bow Group, as well as the Parliamentary Labour Party, both of which have pressed very strongly for this? As there seems to be a consensus of view in the population as to the desirability of this, may we be given a decision soon?

It is surely something in which we can all take pleasure that all parties at the last election paid considerable attention to what is being done for young people. We have to consider the Report of the Albemarle Committee on the Youth Service, which I hope we shall have in the latter part of the Christmas Recess. We have to look at the question as a whole, not only at one single part of it.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to what extent Commonwealth assistance loans are related to the purchase by the receiving countries of goods and services from this and other Commonwealth countries.

Colonies receiving loans from the United Kingdom Exchequer may use them to make purchases without restriction as to source of supply. Loans to other Commonwealth countries made under the Export Guarantee Acts are related to payments by those countries to United Kingdom firms.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what consideration was given by Her Majesty's Government and consultation held with other member Governments of the International Monetary Fund regarding the price of gold and the international exchange value of the United States dollar before the United Kingdom executive director of the fund concurred in its proposal for the removal of discriminatory trade restrictions imposed for balance of payment reasons.

The decision by the International Monetary Fund on discrimination related to existing international commitments and did not inaugurate a new policy to which conditions might be attached.

Was not it unfortunate that this proposal of this international organisation should have been presented to the world in The Times and elsewhere as a joint proposal with the United States State Department? Is not it desirable that countries should be able to use the present position to get themselves out of debt to the United States before being asked to submit to increased competition from that country?

As far as I know, all members of the International Monetary Fund subscribed to this decision. Indeed, even before this decision was made, all members of the Fund and of the G.A.T.T. were under an international obligation to put their payments and trade on a non-discriminatory basis as soon as they could. The decision taken by the Board of the International Monetary Fund was simply that this time had come.

Is it the policy of the Government to be non-discriminatory only in relation to G.A.T.T. members, excluding, of course, Japan, or is it their general policy to be non-discriminatory? Will the hon. Gentleman say why, when the restrictions on dollar imports were removed, the Government tightened the restrictions on imports from China?

That is another question. I was asked a specific Question in relation to considerations concerning the decision of the International Monetary Fund. I should be happy to answer the right hon. Gentleman if he put a Question on the Paper.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that holders of Premium Bonds today have far less chance of winning a prize than at the inception of the scheme; and whether he will increase the total sum payable as prize money.

There has been no change in the rate of interest or the prize structure and, apart from the exceptional first draw when all the eligible bonds contributed six months interest to the prize fund, there has only been a slight lengthening of the odds as the proportion of bonds entering for the first time, and so contributing six months interest, has decreased.

The Answer to the second part of the Question is that the prize fund is already increasing with the increase of bonds in each draw and my right hon. Friend does not consider it desirable to make any change at present in the rate of interest.

While thanking my hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask him whether he agrees that as time goes on the odds against winning a prize will get steadily longer? Is not this becoming a serious and growing disincentive to people to hold Premium Bonds?

I think it is true to say that there is a tendency as time goes on for the odds to lengthen, but there is no question of this happening to any great extent. Perhaps I can best explain this by saying that if one excludes the first draw, which I think everybody agrees was exceptional, in the first six months of normal draws the average odds against a bond winning in a draw was just under 9,600 to 1, whereas in the last six months they have been 10,900 to 1. The lengthening of the odds is thus less than 15 per cent. Even if, which everybody knows is most unlikely, people were not to subscribe for bonds, the worst which could possibly happen would be a lengthening of the odds from 10,900 to 1, as at present, to 12,700 to 1. The suggestion which my hon. Friend has made is not borne out by the facts. I do not want to delay the House any more, but it is important that hon. Members should realise that these bonds are being successful. They are being sold in large numbers, the prize money last time was larger than on any of the previous occasions and the number of bonds now held by the public is greater than at any previous time.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer why, under his regulations, Purchase Tax on dustbins bought by local authorities in quantities of 250 or more is greater per bin than when bought in quantities of a dozen.

This anomaly arose temporarily owing to changes in pricing arrangements in the trade which required a new method of tax assessment. Measures have now been taken to adjust the matter.

Is the Minister aware that that Answer will be received with considerable satisfaction?

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will end the Purchase Tax on dustbins.

My right hon. Friend must not be expected to anticipate his Budget Statement.

Since the poorest family in the land needs a dustbin, is not this the most obvious of necessities? Does not this cost local authorities and thus their ratepayers roughly £250,000 a year?

I agree that this is a necessity, but so are other items which come within the same group. I do not think that hon. Members in general would think it right in principle, and it would not be possible, to relieve articles of tax simply on the ground that the cost of them falls to a greater or lesser extent on the local authority.

For his better information on this Question, will the hon. Member study the debate on the Autumn Budget of 1955? Will he bear in mind that this tax was introduced by the present Home Secretary in a post-election Budget? Is it still the Government's policy that an essential ingredient in the fight against inflation is to tax essentials so that the consumer will have less money to spend on other things?

As I said earlier, I cannot anticipate what my right hon. Friend will say in his Budget Statement. I have no doubt that he will bear in mind what the right hon. Gentleman has said.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will provide figures setting out the receipts from Purchase Tax on perfumery, cosmetics and toilet preparations at the higher rates of 90 per cent., 60 per cent. and 50 per cent. for each quarter from that ended 30th June, 1957, to the present date; and, having regard to those figures, what he estimates would be the reduction in the annual yield of Purchase Tax on such goods if it were reduced from 50 per cent. to 25 per cent.

As the Answer to the first part of the Question contains a number of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT. The Answer to the second part of the Question is about £7 million a year.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what proposals he has for removing undated stocks with fixed interests from the trustee investment list.

None, Sir.

Will not my hon. Friend agree that the 3½ per cent. War Loan, which has been the subject of recent statements, is a perfect example of the loss which trustee investors can suffer as a result of the limitation placed on their powers of selection of investments? Should not there be a change which does not impose such a loss on trustees?

As I think my hon. Friend knows, the whole question of trustee investment is now under consideration by the Government.

When is it proposed to introduce further legislation to extend the powers of trustee investment?

I am afraid that I cannot say.

Will the Economic Secretary agree that any loss which has been suffered by trustees in this investment is entirely due to the Government's financial policy which has caused a catastrophic drop in the price?

Daltons.

Will not the hon. Gentleman answer the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, North (Mr. Reynolds)? Will he answer the shouts of "Daltons" from those behind him by pointing out that the fall in the value of the so-called Daltons has been far greater under this Government that it was under the Labour Government?

I did not mean any discourtesy to the hon. Member for Islington, North (Mr. Reynolds). The answer, is No, Sir; I most certainly do not accept what he said. So far as Daltons are concerned, I should have thought that those spoke for themselves.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the latest known figure for the national hire-purchase debt; how far it has increased since the credit restrictions imposed by his predecessor were removed; to what extent this increase is a sign of renewed inflation; how far a moderate restriction of hire-purchase facilities would help to reduce prices; and if he will make a statement.

The latest figure for total hire-purchase debt is £784 million at the end of September. It has increased by £303 million since September, 1958, when the first stage of de-restriction was announced. The movement of these figures cannot in itself be taken as an index of inflation, and there is no reason to believe that the restriction of hire-purchase facilities at this time would have any appreciable effect in reducing prices. We shall, however, continue to keep hire-purchase expenditure under review along with other elements in the national expenditure.

As the Thorneycroft restrictive measures have been abandoned and the hire-purchase debt has increased, as my hon. Friend says, by £300 million, how much further does the Treasury think it can rise without endangering the stability of prices? Will my hon. Friend assure the House, and me especially, that the Government will put price stability as the primary objective of their economic policy?

With regard to the latter part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question, it is well known that this is one of the objectives which is uppermost in my right hon. Friend's mind. In answer to the first part, it is expected that the increase in the hire-purchase debt in 1960 will be very substantially less than the increase in the current year. This will be a factor in damping down the rise in demand from now on.

Will not my hon. Friend agree, first, that, provided that there are sufficient savings coming forth from the community, an increase in the hire-purchase debt need not be inflationary; and, secondly, that per head of population the hire-purchase debt in this country is still substantially below that in the United States?

May I ask my hon. Friend—

Order. I do not know if the Economic Secretary wants to answer the supplementary asked by the hon. Member for Basingstoke (Mr. Denzil Freeth). The hon. Gentleman had better have a chance to do so.

I certainly agree with the first part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question, and I think that he is correct in what he said about the relationship between the United States and ourselves.

Does the hon. Gentleman think that it is better from every point of view that more and more people should get more and more into debt?

No, but I certainly do not think that hire purchase is in itself a bad thing.

I beg my hon. Friend not to set our policy by the example of the Americans, who are running into inflation as fast as they can. Will he see that the promise given by the Chancellor that we will put the stability of prices above all else is honoured.

I will certainly convey to my right hon. Friend what my hon. Friend has said.

asked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer the amount of revenue to the Treasury derived from tax on shale oil in the Lothians in 1958–59; and the estimated tax revenue for 1959–60.

The revenue in 1958–59 was about £650,000. The revenue in 1959–60 is expected to be of the same order.

In view of the rising unemployment in this area and the decline in the shale-oil industry, will the Minister give some direction to allow for redevelopment and create more employment in this part of Scotland, which has been very badly hit?

The hon. Gentleman will understand that I cannot say anything about the future, as the whole question of the level of hydrocarbon oil duties is a matter for the Budget.

Will not the hon. Gentleman agree that, since it is now the expressed Government policy to help parts of the country such as this, by a little remission of taxation some tangible proof of the Government's intention could well be given in this case?

It is fair that the House should know that the Excise duty applicable to this oil is 1s. 3d. a gallon less than the main Customs hydrocarbon oil duly. The duty structure already affords the industry a very high degree of protection and assistance.

It is not much good talking about waiting for the Budget, since in the debate on the 1958 Finance Bill the Chancellor gave a very clear pledge that something was to be done to help the industry in the following Finance Bill, but nothing was done. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the industry is really declining—and in an area of heavy unemployment—and will he emphasise these facts to his right hon. Friend?