asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will grant all old-age pensioners who have no other form of income a supplementary old-age pension.

As my hon. and gallant Friend is aware, any retirement or non-contributory old-age pensioner having no other resources who is living on his own or is a householder would normally be eligible for a pension supplement: if my hon. and gallant Friend has in mind any case of difficulty, perhaps he will let me or the Chairman of the National Assistance Board have the particulars.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he is aware that increased fares in public transport vehicles make undue inroads into retirement pensions; and if he will now take steps to meet this by arranging for old-age pensioners to be provided with free transport to and from the place where their pension is paid, or alternatively by making an appropriate addition to the pension.

No, Sir. As the hon. and learned Member is aware, any pensioner in difficulty can nominate a friend or relative to cash his pension on his behalf.

As an alternative to the concession for which I have asked, would the Minister consider applying to old-age pensioners the same principle as that which is applied to civil servants, officers of Her Majesty's Forces and the Speaker of this House, and that is removing the earnings rule?

I really do not think that the earnings rule has anything to do with a question of the provision of free transport for the purpose of cashing pensions.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what reply he has sent to the request of the Old-Age Pensions Association that the Government should make a substantial increase in the basic pension and a corresponding increase in National Assistance scales.

I do not know to which request the hon. Lady is referring. The policy of Her Majesty's Government on this matter has been clearly and publicly stated.

Is the Minister aware that the Old-Age Pensions Association believes that its members can share in the increased prosperity promised by the Government only if the amount of the basic pension is increased? Can the Minister say at what point the Government will feel that prosperity has risen sufficiently to enable an increase to be made in the basic pension?

If the hon. Lady will study the events of the last few years, she will see that such increases have been made as the national prosperity has developed and improved under wise economic policies. Our position for the future was so clearly set out by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary when he wound up the debate on the Gracious Speech that it would be superfluous for me to add anything to what he said.

May I ask the Minister whether these stalling replies is all he has to say to the old-age pensioners in the way of good cheer and hope for the coming months? Is all that he can offer to the old-age pensioners an opportunity of getting 10s. more of what they earn without having a cut from their pensions? When does he propose to bring to a conclusion this constant and close review on which he assures the House that he is engaged and provide some hope for the pensioners for the long hard days that lie ahead this winter?

As the hon. Gentleman will know and as has been made clear, the proposed changes in the earnings rule do not qualify or minimise in any way our general undertaking to keep the benefits under review. On that our record speaks clearly.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what National Insurance contributions British gardeners, working for the Imperial War Graves Commission on the Continent, have to pay for unemployment and health; and to what extent they are entitled to draw full benefits, including sickness benefit.

I am afraid no general answer to my hon. Friend's Question is possible. In any particular case, it must depend on whether the individual concerned was recruited in this country or locally; whether he has previously been insured in this country; and on whether the country in which he is working is one with which we have a reciprocal agreement. If my hon. Friend has a particular case in mind, I will be glad to write to him about it.

Whilst thanking my right hon. Friend for his reply, may I ask him whether I am right in assuming that any workman who transferred from this country to work abroad would qualify for full benefits?

That must depend on the various conditions to which I referred in my main Answer, which are somewhat variegated. I should not like to give a general ruling without having the facts of the particular case before me.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many people in Acton receive National Insurance retirement pensions; and what percentage of these also receive supplementary pensions paid by the National Assistance Board.

As retirement pensions are paid from a central point, I regret that separate figures for pensioners in Acton are not available.

Whilst thanking my right hon. Friend for her reply and appreciating the difficulties, may I ask her whether she is aware that there are still a number of National Insurance pensioners without other means of support who are reluctant to go to the National Assistance Board for a supplementary pension? Would she not agree that the identification of National Assistance with the supplementary pension is an obstacle to overcoming their reluctance?

So far as the National Assistance Board and ourselves know, there are not nowadays many people in need who are deterred by considerations of this kind from seeking Assistance. I appreciate that there are still some, but we are most anxious to prevent these few people being put off by the idea, for various reasons of pride, that they should not go to the Board. We have, therefore, taken the step of removing the words "National Assistance" from the covers of the books which will henceforward be issued, and recipients of National Assistance who draw regular payments will find substituted for "National Assistance" the words "Supplement to pension or other weekly grant."

Is the hon. Lady aware that but for the unfortunate result of the recent General Election all those people would have had an extra 10s. a week by now?

I have no doubt that the hon. Member would still have felt it necessary to ensure that those receiving National Assistance would not have lost thereby, and that had there been such an increase, it might still have been necessary for many people to apply for National Assistance.

Wishful thinking.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what consideration he is giving to improving the whole position of widows with children, so far as their position is his responsibility.

It is the policy of the Government to give special attention to the widow with children. It was for this reason that the Family Allowances and National Insurance Act, 1956, provided that the rate of National Insurance benefit in respect of widows' children should be at a higher rate than that payable in respect of other dependent children under the National Insurance Acts.

This lead has been maintained and, as a result, National Insurance benefit for a widow with three children in now 60 per cent. above the August 1956 level, compared with a 7 per cent. increase in retail prices. Similarly, the proposed relaxations of the earnings limits which I have recently submitted to the National Insurance Advisory Committee provide, as did those approved by Parliament earlier this year, for a larger increase in respect of widowed mothers than for other pensioners. It is our intention to maintain these broad principles in connection with any future changes.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that rather long and involved reply which relates to cases arising mostly before the General Election. In view of his very sympathetic approach to some cases which I referred to him, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether we have not now to try to approximate the position of widows with children to that of married women, who have the benefit of Income Tax reliefs—perhaps out of all proportion to those of widowed mothers earning on their own account—and whether by extra allowances it would not be possible to encourage widowed mothers to stay at home?

On the question of National Insurance benefit, what I said in my Answer and the facts to which I have referred denote our special care in that direction. But, as my hon. Friend knows, questions of taxation are for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and not for me.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how much it would cost to increase the basic widow's pension from 10s. a week to £1 a week.

About £4½ million a year.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that the amount of money needed to increase the basic pensions for members of this section of the community is infinitesimal when compared with the great joy that such an increase would bring? Is he aware that in Standing Committee discussions and in speeches made in this Chamber by hon. Members on both sides of the House, there has been agitation for the Minister to give further consideration to the position of these people? Does not the right hon. Gentleman think the time has arrived when he should give to this matter the consideration which it deserves?

The hon. Gentleman must face the fact that the great majority of these widows receive 10s. where widows in identical circumstances, whose only rights are under the present Act, get nothing. What the hon. Gentleman suggests would widen that anomaly in future. Regarding what has been said in this House, may I remind him that his right hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough, East (Mr. Marquand), speaking on behalf of the Opposition, said that he did not think the grievance of these widows was fully justified.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how much the 10s. a week widow's pension has dropped in value since 1951; and how many widows are at present receiving this pension.

By about 3s. a week at current prices. This pension is payable to about 138,000 widows.

Then would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that, in view of the reduction in the value of money, my argument for an increase has been proved?

There has been no more proof by the 3s. figure which I gave in my answer than by the 2s. 9d. diminution which took place when the hon. Gentleman's right hon. Friend was Minister.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman running away from the position? These people have not received a 10s. widow's pension for a long period. Does not the Minister feel that, in view of the fall of the value of money, he should try to ease the circumstances of these people rather than run away from the problem?

The hon. Gentleman himself is running away from the fact, which I am sure he knows, that this was simply a residual right preserved from the old scheme, under which a pension was paid to all widows regardless of circumstances. Under the 1946 legislation a different and, I suggest, a much wiser approach has been made. Simply to increase this pension, retained quite rightly by his right hon. Friend as a reserved right, would be to widen the anomaly between the 10s. widow and the "no-shilling" widow.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what he estimates would be the cost of abolishing the earnings rule so far as it is applied to widowed mothers.

The direct cost would be about £1½ million a year at present. If the proposals which I have recently submitted to the National Insurance Advisory Committee were to be approved by Parliament, this figure would fall to about £1 million.

In view of that very modest amount, does not the Minister think it is now an appropriate time to bring this unfair rule to an end regarding widowed mothers? If he will give the House such an assurance, I will give him an assurance that I will withdraw my Private Member's Bill due for Second Reading in February. How can the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues possibly justify the application of this principle to widowed mothers and yet come to the House of Commons at this moment and ask us to pass a pension Bill for the late Speaker of this House when he can go out and earn £10,000 a year? What is the difference in principle?

Neither when this rule was introduced into the Act of 1946 nor since has the reason for its application to widowed mothers had very much to do with finance or cost. As the hon. Gentleman will recall, it was introduced in the Act of 1946 as part of the general structure of the National Insurance Scheme as illustrating and demonstrating the principle that in general National Insurance benefits are paid where employment and earnings on a whole-time basis are interrupted. That has been the basis throughout the lifetime of the Scheme. The real difficulty behind the proposal of the hon. Gentleman is not the immediate cost—I agree with him that the figures are quite moderate—but how one would apply a complete relaxation of the rule to the case of a widow pensioner, which many widowed mothers become at age 50, or, still more, to a widow who becomes eligible for a retirement pension. I am not at all sure that it is not the right thing to raise the limit, as we are proposing, to enable widows to receive by way of part-time earnings and benefit together more than the present average industrial earnings for women.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what is the present percentage of men who opt to stay on at work after the age of 65 years in order to earn a higher pension; and to what extent this percentage is tending to increase or decrease.

It is estimated that something like 57 per cent. of the men reaching age 65 in the twelve months ending in June, 1958, postponed their retirement, compared with about 60 per cent. in each of the four previous years. Figures for the year ending in June, 1959, show a rather lower proportion working beyond age 65—about 53 per cent.—but are not comparable with those for the earlier years because, from July, 1958, men who were first brought into insurance when the National Insurance scheme began, and who were mainly self-employed and non-employed, became entitled to pensions under the general conditions instead of under the special provisions for late age entrants.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that it is as desirable to take measures to increase this figure as it is to encourage part-time workers by adjusting the earnings limit?

As my hon. and gallant Friend will remember, as recently as August this year we both increased the amount of increments which could be earned by remaining at work and reduced the number of weeks over which it is necessary to work to earn an incre- ment. That came into effect in August this year, but it has not had time to be reflected in figures, which run only to June of this year.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what recent proposals he has received from the National Assistance Board for increasing the present coal allowance.

None, Sir And although, of course, the National Assistance Board both takes into account the need for fuel of all sorts in its consideration of its scale rates and can, and frequently does, make discretionary additions to help with the cost of fuel in special circumstances, there is no such thing as the coal allowance to which the hon. Member seeks to refer.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind, first, that there are about 1½ million people dependent on National Assistance and, secondly, that something like 35 million tons of coal are stocked in the country? Would it not be sensible and practicable—whatever he may call it, a coal allowance or anything else—for the National Assistance Board to be more generous in making these discretionary grants?

When we last fully discussed the affairs of the National Assistance Board, there was general approval on both sides of the House of the wide use of discretionary powers by the Board and its officers.

asked the Minister of Power on what date he received proposals from the Gas Board and the Central Electricity Authority to extend the benefits of the Pensions (Increase) Act, 1959, to their pensioners both from previously privately-owned and municipally-owned companies; and whether the date of the increase will coincide with the Pensions (Increase) Act.

The electricity supply industry scheme was received on 10th September and has been approved. I have approved the draft gas industry schemes in principle, but they have not yet been submitted for my formal approval. In both industries, the increased benefits will be payable from the same date as benefits under the Pensions (Increase) Act, 1959, which is 1st August, 1959.

asked the Minister of Power what has been the percentage increase in the average cost of electricity sold since 1949, to the nearest convenient date.

29 per cent., to 1958.

Bearing in mind that 80 per cent. of the costs of the Generating Board are accounted for by fuel costs, which for very good and understandable reasons have risen very sharply since the war, is not this a story of triumphant achievement by a nationalised industry? Will the Minister see that some of his hon. Friends are better informed on the facts?

The performance of the electricity industry is indeed satisfactory. I would draw attention to the fact that, in the period 1st April, 1948, to 31st March, 1959, the electricity industry in England and Wales spent £1,926 million on expanding and improving its capital equipment.

Does the hon. Member suggest that the electricity industry could have done better than it has done during the last eight years? If so, why did not the Government see that it did better?

I am not suggesting at all that it could have done better.

asked the Minister of Power whether he will state the number of units of electricity produced per person employed, and the number of generation employees per 1,000 kilowatts of output capacity in 1948–49 and 1958–59.

The figures for Great Britain in 1948 and 1958, respectively, are 290,000 and 460,000 units per person employed in the electricity supply industry and 2·85 and 1·74 generation employees per 1,000 kilowatts of output capacity.

Does not that further reinforce the observation which I made in my previous supplementary question? By every standard, and bearing in mind its capital investment, to which the Minister referred, the electricity industry is strictly comparable with any manufacturing industry or any section of private industry in Britain. In the interests of the workers at all levels in this industry, will the hon. Member see that there is an end to the sneers and the misrepresentations which go on all the time and which are largely activated from his side of the House?

I would only repeat that we are satisfied with the performance of the electricity industry.

asked the Minister of Power whether he is aware that over 5,000 farms in Devonshire are without a main electricity supply; and if he will authorise the regional electricity boards in south-west England and elsewhere to undertake forthwith further work to provide power to farms and rural villages.

Yes, Sir: but since 1948 the proportion of farms connected in the south-west has increased from about a fifth to two-thirds and in Devon from 15 per cent. to over 55 per cent. Supplies to rural areas are already costing the South-Western Electricity Board about £200,000 a year on revenue account. The possibility of increasing the present high rate of area boards' capital expenditure on rural electrification is governed by their revenue position rather than their capital allocations.

May we take it from that Answer that the Minister will place no obstacle in the way of the South-Western Electricity Board in carrying out, as rapidly as possible, these plans for rural electrification?

I can assure the hon. Member that he and I and the South-Western Board are entirely together in wanting to get on with this as quickly as we can, but obviously the pace of the advance depends on the use which is made of equipment which is already installed.

asked the Minister of Power whether, in view of the plight of the coal industry, he will consult the President of the Board of Trade with a view to limiting the import of fuel oil.

No, Sir. As we already produce in this country more fuel oil than we use, I do not think that the hon. Member's suggestion would serve the purpose he has in mind.

Is the Minister aware that throughout my lifetime the Tory Party have preached "Buy British"? Why does he allow an imported product to ruin our oldest basic industry?

For the reason which I tried to explain to the hon. Member—that an imported product is not ruining our basic industry. We are producing in this country—and this was the substance of my Answer—more fuel oil than we are using in this country. It is therefore not an import which is destroying the coal industry and creating the difficult position to which he tried to draw my attention.

Will my right hon. Friend also confirm that last year, for example, the value of coal exports from Britain was a mere £20 million, whereas the value of the exports of petroleum products, which are naturally dependent on the production of fuel oil at the refineries, amounted to £104 million, five times as much as the value of the coal exports?

I should need to make a little research to discover whether my hon. Friend's figures are as correct as they generally are, but I have no reason to dissent from them. Indeed, the total quantity of oil exports and bunkers is considerably above the total quantity of oil imports.

Since I gather that the Government have so far rejected proposals to protect the coal industry by limiting the import of other fuels, may I ask whether this policy is to be applied to all industries, including those which are protected in their home demand by the Government's tariffs? Do I gather that the Conservative Party have now completely dropped the principle of applying protective tariffs to protect home industries?

That is rather a wider question than the suggestion that I should approach my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade about the matter.

Is the Minister aware that the importation of methane gas is affecting, and is increasingly likely to affect, the demand for coal? What are his views about that?

As I explained—

Order. That is a different question. I hope that later today the House may be discussing kindred matters in a wide field.

On a point of order. Methane gas is an imported oil product and, with all respect, it is connected with the Question.

I am wrong, and I apologise to the House. I hope that the Minister will continue to answer as he was answering when I interrupted.

All I intended to say was that I explained last week in the House that no proposals have been made to me about methane gas. When I have those proposals I shall consider them on their merits.

asked the Minister of Power if he is aware that there is now more than 6 million tons of opencast coal in stock in various parts of the country; and if he will now consider discontinuing this method of extraction forthwith.

The National Coal Board is already reducing opencast coal output as fast as it can.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that one of his Ministerial colleagues thought fit to reduce the width of the Birmingham-Bristol motorway in order to save 140 acres of land for agricultural purposes? There are now 40,000 acres of good land being used for opencast mining. Would it not be to the advantage of the nation that that land should be used with the 140 acres for the purpose of growing food, 9,241,000 tons of which were imported last year?

I have already told the hon. Member that the Board is trying to reduce opencast working as fast as it can. I do not feel able to press it to reduce it further.

Although I accept what he said—that the Board is reducing opencast working very fast—would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that one of the reasons holding it back from doing so more rapidly is the question of contracts? Have the Government considered whether they could not use the contractors and their machines for other work, such as roads and building works?

Even if that method were adopted, the cost of breaking the contracts which have been made with contractors for opencast working would be extremely heavy. I do not feel able to advise the Board to do that.

asked the Minister of Power if he will state the number of licensed coal mines operating in England, Scotland and Wales; and by whom their stocks are financed.

There are 547 licensed coal mines. The operators are responsible for financing their stocks.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that at least in one area of the coalfield the National Coal Board is buying stocks of coal from these private mines, thereby assuming financial responsibility for stocking coal from private industry?

We have no information on that matter, but it will be looked into.

Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that there are 1½ million people who depend on National Assistance and that the cost of financing these stocks could be reduced if the National Assistance Board were to increase discretionary coal grants to poor people?

That is an entirely different matter.

asked the Minister of Power to what extent the estimated fall of 13 million tons in coal consumption in 1959 compared with 1958 is due to decline in exports, displacement of coal by oil, and other factors, respectively.

Exports and bunkers are likely to be down by 750,000 tons and increased use of oil may account for about 7 million tons. The balance represents the effect of warmer weather and greater fuel efficiency, partly offset by higher industrial activity.

As we have more than 50 million tons of coal in stock in this country and as oil is displacing coal at present at a faster rate than the coal industry can cope with, will the Government take steps at least to restrict the consumption of oil during the transitional period?

My right hon. Friend made the Government position quite clear on this matter on 9th November. We intend to preserve freedom of choice to users.

asked the Minister of Power to what extent the production of coal will be reduced in 1960 compared with 1959 by pit closures, cuts in opencast production and other factors, respectively.

There will be a reduction of 4 million tons in opencast, and about 7 million tons in deepmined, output. The latter will come partly from closures made in 1959 and 1960 and partly from concentrations of working and single-shift working at some pits.

As that will still leave about 7 million tons of opencast production and as there is far greater human hardship caused by pit closures than by reduction of opencast working, will the hon. Gentleman reconsider the question of asking the National Coal Board to take further steps to reduce opencast working?

The National Coal Board has already taken very great steps to reduce opencast working. In fact, by next year the production will have been cut by 50 per cent. in two years.

asked the Minister of Power whether he is now able to give estimates of the probable total production and consumption of coal in 1960.

The Board intends to reduce deepmined and opencast production to 195 million tons which it hopes will be a little below the level of demand.

Is the Minister aware that if we have this increase of 5 per cent. productivity this year and if consumption still goes down, the "Revised Plan for Coal" will not be worth the paper it is printed an?

We shall be debating that matter later this afternoon.

In view of the fact that the Ministry's last year's estimates for this year's production and consumption were out by an aggregate of 9 million tons, is there any prospect that these estimates will bear any relation to reality next year?

In last year's demand figures there were many non-recurring items.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that for the first forty-two weeks of this year demand was running at only 180 million tons per annum?

Yes, I am well aware of that, but it does not in any way lessen our confidence in the estimates for next year.

asked the Minister of Power what recent general direction he has given to the National Coal Board to ensure that the production of coal does not exceed demand.

None, Sir. The Board is taking steps to bring next year's production into line with demand.

May I take it that the Minister agrees that it is imperative that the National Coal Board should sell all the coal is produces instead of incurring further expense by stocking? If so, how does he intend to achieve this very desirable end without a co-ordinated fuel policy embracing all the energy industries in the country?

The Board's estimates for next year, which no doubt we shall have a chance of discussing soon, envisage that the demand for coal will be slightly above the supply of coal, and, therefore, the objective which the hon. Member has rightly in mind is likely to begin to be achieved.

asked the Minister of Power, in view of increasing redundancy in the coalfields, if he will give a general direction to the National Coal Board to stop giving contracts to outside firms for underground mining operations except where the work is of a specialised nature.

No, Sir. I am not prepared to interfere with the National Coal Board's freedom of action in this matter.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the giving of contracts to outside bodies for underground work is causing great resentment among mineworkers? Does he not feel that in this situation, in view of possible redundancy, all work underground should be done by mineworkers, particularly as most of them are competent to do such jobs?

I think the members of the National Coal Board are the people who can most easily and most effectively decide by whom these particular contracts should be done. Therefore, I do not intend to disturb the arrangements at present.

asked the Minister of Power whether he will include in Table 19 of the Ministry of Power Statistical Digest information showing the total number of persons employed in deep-mined coal production in each division of the National Coal Board, so that the numbers employed in an administrative capacity and on productive work, respectively, can be compared over a period of years.

National figures are already given in the Digest, and I doubt whether information on a divisional basis is of sufficient interest to justify publication.

Is the Minister aware that in the Yorkshire coalfield there is strong feeling that there is much unnecessary waste and inefficiency in the administration of these local headquarters due to the fact that there are too many officials and that local pit managers have insufficient authority and power to deal with matters on the spot?

These are obviously matters for the National Coal Board.

asked the Minister of Power what action the Government proposes to take about the recommendation contained in the Robson Report on Coal Distribution Costs in Great Britain about the need for larger coal depots and the mechanical handling of coal.

The Government have consulted those concerned. Action depends on agreement between a number of separate commercial interests, which are in touch with each other and aware of each other's problems. It would not he appropriate for me to interfere, but if my help is asked for at any time, I will gladly do what I can.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in some of our large cities last winter coal distribution practically broke down? Does he not agree that coal distribution by larger units on a zoning basis would be more efficient?

I think I had better not express any opinion on the merits of this matter. I have seen the conclusions of the Robson Report, and I am entirely ready to try to assist an advance of this kind, if an advance is desired.

asked the Minister of Aviation how far, under his regulations, the private airlines are required to maintain the air fares which are required of the British Overseas Airways Corporation and British European Airways.

The fares charged on international scheduled services must comply with those prescribed by the International Air Transport Association, by which the Corporations are also bound. On domestic scheduled services, where these compete with those of British European Airways the private airlines are required to charge not less than the B.E.A. fare.

Is it not the case that there is now considerable confusion as a result of recent discussions at international level, and is not this confusion working out to the disadvantage of the nation's own air services compared with private air services?

I do not think there is any confusion among those who have studied the position.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether any decision has yet been reached about the development of supersonic aircraft.

The P.1 Lightning fighter, which flies level at Mach 2, will shortly be coming into service. An all-steel research aircraft, capable of much higher supersonic speeds, should be flying next year. The problem of developing supersonic civil aircraft is being actively studied.

asked the Minister of Aviation what decision he has made regarding the future of the Princess flying boat.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he has now decided to dispose of the Princess flying boat.

The hulls of the three Princess flying boats are being kept in cocoon, in the hope that some worthwhile use will be found for them.

Can the Minister come to some decision fairly soon as to what his own views on this subject are, whether he should recommend that the flying boats be taken out of their cocoons and put into service again? Can he foresee any possible use for them with the development of nuclear power?

A number of proposals have been made at different times about these flying boats, but none of them has materialised. Last week I received another proposal, which I am examining.

asked the Minister of Aviation which Royal Ordnance factories and research stations, previously under the responsibility of the Ministry of Supply, have now passed to his Department.

As the Answer contains a list of names, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Is there now a complete settlement or agreement about the research stations falling within the responsibility of the right hon. Gentleman's Department and the others?

Yes.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will state the present position resulting from the deadlock over reducing passenger fares that was reached at the International Air Travel Association; and what action he proposes to take in the matter.

Unless agreement is reached between now and 1st April, there will be no internationally fixed air fares after that date except for those within Europe, between Europe and South America and between North and South America. I am actively considering the position, but I have no statement to make yet.

Are not private air services taking advantage of the situation to raise their charges, particularly to the Far East, beyond those which the national services are allowed to reach?

The independent airlines are all pressing to be allowed to reduce their fares.

Is not there likely to be some confusion about this? My right hon. Friend will agree that he has no control whatsoever over private airlines run under the auspices of other Governments. He can bring his good offices to bear only on British independent airways, with whom he is constantly in touch.

I can speak only for Her Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether the building which accommodates the integrated system of joint control of aircraft in the London control zone is situated at Northolt Airport or at London Airport.

At London Airport.

May I revert to the Question which was asked last Monday? Does that mean that these two aircraft, which were under the approach control system at Watford, then pass under the radar control systems at London Airport and finally the R.A.F aircraft comes under the control system at Northolt Tower. Is the right hon. Gentleman telling us that all these systems are in the same building at London Airport?

I think the hon. Gentleman has become a little confused. At the time in question, both aircraft were under civil control from the approach control room at London Airport.

Has the right hon. Gentleman been able to get the two controlling officers concerned at the same table yet?

No. They are in the same building. I should like to make a point about which the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) asked last time. I was not absolutely sure about it, and that is why I did not want to give an absolutely firm answer. The R.A.F. takes over only as the aircraft approaches Northolt to land. The decisive authority for the allocation of priorities between R.A.F. and civil aircraft rests with the civil control.

asked the Minister of Health when he intends to sanction the scheme for the extension of Northgate Hospital which has been under consideration for some time.

I would draw the attention of my hon. Friend to the reference to this hospital in the reply which I gave on 16th November to my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford (Lord Balniel).

Can my right hon. and learned Friend tell the House whether this new extension is outside the announced capital expenditure programme, and whether we on the North-East Coast are to get any benefit out of the new capital expenditure programme that has been announced? We are extremely short of a great many places over a very wide field.

I was referring then to the capital expenditure for the year 1961–62. I gave a list of the various projects on which I was asking for planning to proceed. This hospital extension falls within that list of projects, and is for £500,000 in the first instance.

asked the Minister of Health what was the number of lunatic asylums in England and Wales on 1st January, 1949, and 1st January, 1959, respectively.

I assume that the hon. Member refers to hospitals designated under the Lunacy and Mental Treatment Acts. I will, with permission, circulate the available figures in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that I am pleased he did not accept that there were lunatic asylums? Has he told the "blithering idiots" in another place, Lord Montgomery and his right hon. Friend the Minister for Science—

Order. I hope I shall have the assistance of hon. Members in seeing that Questions are conducted in an orderly fashion.

On a point of order. I should like your guidance, Mr. Speaker. As you are aware, it was said by two noble Lords that those voting Labour should be sent to non-existing places—lunatic asylums. Is there any way in which the Minister or someone else can bring that fact to their attention?

The hon. Member can ask suitable Questions, but in referring to members of another place he must use due decorum of expression:

asked the Minister of Health what progress has been made with the proposal to provide a second seat in motor tricycles for the disabled.

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Norwood (Sir J. Smyth) and the hon. Member for Stockton-on-Tees (Mr. Chetwynd) on 16th November.

Has any progress been made? When is it likely that there will be these sort of tricycles in which disabled persons can be accompanied by a wife or friend?

I take it that the hon. Gentleman is referring to National Health Service patients, in which case there is no power under the National Health Service Act to extend the provision of motor tricycles to two-seater vehicles which would enable the disabled person to take a friend.

Why does not "motor tricycle" mean a three-wheel motor vehicle? The regulation, as I read it, means that a three-wheel motor vehicle with two seats can be provided as well as a vehicle which has one seat, and it is still a motor tricycle. Why is not that so?

As I explained last week, it is the general duty of my right hon. and learned Friend to provide services, including hospital treatment and accommodation. It is under that power that we are enabled to provide a vehicle for a disabled person.

Does my hon. Friend realise that the guarantee given in the Conservative Party manifesto at the General Election to the effect that particular attention would be paid to providing suitable vehicles for the badly disabled gave the very greatest hope and encouragement to all persons and organisations who have been working towards that end for years? The fact that the Government realise at last that these vehicles are unsuitable is a great step forward.

The pledge in the Conservative Party manifesto to which my hon. and gallant Friend referred related to war pensioners only. It was contained in a passage which referred to services for war pensioners.

Will the hon. Lady reconsider this, because circumstances are changing? These disabled men are much older. They are in need of care and help when they go out in any vehicle. They are not the type to abuse a tricycle. In these circumstances, there are so few needed that the Ministry might reconsider this.

I do not agree with the right hon. Lady that these men are getting older, save in the context of war pensioners. People are suffering disabling injury all the time and I would expect to find that they are a representative cross-section of ages. If the right hon. Lady asks me to reconsider the policy of providing vehicles for disabled persons who are National Health Service patients, I will certainly convey that point to my right hon. and learned Friend.

The hon. Lady gave the impression to the House that there was some legal inhibition in the National Health Service Act preventing it. I have no recollection of such an inhibition.

I find it a little difficult to correct the right hon. Gentleman, but the power contained in the National Health Service Act only permits my right hon. and learned Friend to provide a single-seater vehicle—

That is not so.

—and it would be stretching it beyond the legislation we now have to provide a two-seater vehicle.

Will the hon. Lady consider taking legal advice on this? I think she will find that she is slightly wrong.

I am sure that I am correct, but I am certainly prepared to consult my right hon. and learned Friend and to take legal advice.

asked the Minister of Health what would be the cost of replacing the invalid tricycles now on issue to badly disabled ex-Service men by some type of small two-seater car; and what would be the additional cost of replacing the tricycles now on issue to equally badly disabled National Health Service patients.

Any comparison of cost must depend on the type of car selected, and is part of the review of the possibility of replacing invalid tricycles by larger vehicles to which I referred last week.

Would not my hon. Friend agree that the sum involved is very small in comparison with the great comfort it would give to these very badly disabled people whom we should help? If, as she said a little earlier, some slight amendment of the Act is required, then, from what I know of this House, it would pass the Bill in an afternoon.

I hope that it will turn out to be small, but the review I mentioned will go into the costs in capital and annual maintenance both of developing the present tricycle into a two-seater tricycle and of replacing the present tricycles with small cars.

As the hon. Lady knows the numbers, can she not tell the House the cost now so that we can assess the importance of this small but humane reform?

I am sorry, but I am not able to tell the House now because, as yet, we are still considering the type of vehicle that will fit this particular need.

Is my hon. Friend aware that invalid tricycles are now given a wide berth on the road, chiefly out of respect and reassurance to the occupants? If these people are now to be prescribed two-seater cars, will they receive the same protection in future? It is a quite important problem.

That is not a question for my Ministry, but I must make clear to my hon. Friend that the cars relate only to the war disabled.

asked the Minister of Health which of the recommendations of the McNair Report, 1956, have been implemented; and what were the dates of the respective implementations.

Measures have been taken for the implementation of all the main recommendations. Remuneration falls within the terms of reference of the Royal Commission on Doctors' and Dentists' Remuneration, which was set up in February, 1957 The first review of dental treatments in relation to prior approval was initiated in August, 1957, and the establishment of the Standing Committee on Dental Health Education in October of the same year. The Government's decision to expand dental training facilities was announced in July, 1958.

Does the Minister realise that his reply amounts to very little; that, in effect, what has been done is certainly not consistent with the urgency that the McNair Report tried to impress upon him? Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree with the Report when it says that

"… ultimate responsibility for implanting in the minds of the public a proper realisation of the importance of dental health must rest on the Minister of Health …"?

And what steps is he taking towards meeting the Committee's views?

I dealt with the matter of the Standing Committee on Dental Health Education in reply to the hon. Member last week, or the week before—

Unsatisfactorily.

No, satisfactorily to all except the hon. Member—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—who finds himself, not for the first time, in an inconsiderable minority. The Standing Committee is a co-ordinating committee. The funds go to the various bodies and are expended by these bodies whose activities this Committee co-ordinates. The Standing Committee is not itself a spending body.

Can the Minister say whether he is implementing the recommendation of the McNair Committee that the number of available places should be increased from 650 to 1,000? And has he now established a dental school in Wales with 50 places, as the Committee recommended?

Yes, we are implementing the recommendation in regard to increasing the annual intake. That will be done by the projects to which I have already referred—the project of the dental hospital in Birmingham, at University College Hospital in London, and others that I mentioned in answer to my noble Friend the Member for Hertford (Lord Balniel) last week. In regard to Wales, there will be a new dental hospital at Cardiff which, as the right hon. Lady may know, is now the subject of an architectural competition.

asked the Minister of Health when he expects the revised salaries of the designated officers of the administrative and clerical staffs of the National Health Service to be implemented.

Within a few weeks, when the authorising circular has been sent to employing authorities.

Does the Minister appreciate that these ladies and gentlemen who have been told that they are to have an increase feel somewhat impatient at the delay before they actually come on to the higher salary scale?

Yes. The circulars have been difficult to draft in this case, as is well known to both sides of the Whitley Council, because there are complicated arrangements in regard to assimilation and so on. But the circular should be going out quite soon now and, of course, the salaries are back-dated to 1st July, 1958.

Over what period will these officers have to serve before receiving the full salary scale awarded to them under the new arrangements?

I could not spell out, in answer to a supplementary question, the whole of the complicated assimilation arrangements, if that is what the hon. Gentleman means—but I do not think that he does.

asked the Minister of Health, as representing the Minister for Science, whether he will discuss with the Medical Research Council the urgent need for a study of the effects on health of sulphur and other gases emitted from oil-fired boilers and furnaces and from exhausts of mobile and stationary oil engines.

The Medical Research Council is already investigating the effects on health of atmospheric pollution from sulphur compounds and other gases produced by the combustion of various fuels, including oil. Although these are potentially harmful, experiments have not so far demonstrated any ill-effects from exposure to any level of concentration in the atmosphere to which human beings are, in practice, exposed.

May I first ask if the firm in which the Question has appeared means that the Minister of Health cannot now talk to the Medical Research Council except through the medium of the Minister for Science? If that is so, does not the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that it is a rather retrogressive step?

Referring to the effect of oil fumes on health, is the Minister satisfied that the inquiry which is taking place is covering the whole ground; and how soon does he think it will be before we have some information from that inquiry, as this is a matter which has a good deal to do with such things as clean air orders and smoke abatement?

With regard to the latter part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, the studies are comprehensive and widespread, but, of course, it is always possible to refer further matters to the Medical Research Council, as and when they come up. Information should flow from these studies, and as researches provide information it should be communicated to the public.

As to the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, the difference is that in the last Parliament I answered these Questions on behalf of my noble Friend the Lord President of the Council. I now answer them on behalf of my noble Friend the Minister for Science. Happily, however, my noble Friend is the same person.