asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty whether he will make a statement about the commissioning of H.M.S. "Bulwark" as a commando carrier; and when a second aircraft carrier will be allocated for a similar rôle.

H.M.S. "Bulwark" will commission on 19th January, 1960. She should be worked up and fully operational in her new role of commando carrier in the late spring. I am confident that her presence in the Fleet will give a welcome increase to the mobility of our defence forces.

The provision of a second commando carrier is under consideration, but a final decision has not yet been taken.

Would not my hon. Friend agree that one of the light fleet carriers now on the disposal list could be allocated for this rôle? Would he also undertake to look into the question of support for the commando carrier, either by the provision of another carrier with strike aircraft or by the provision of an assault ship carrying armour?

In answer to the first part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question, I would say that our plans have allowed for one of our ships to be adapted for the second commando carrier. I would like to have notice of the second part. It is a far more complicated and intricate matter.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty what naval units are now engaged on protecting trawlers off Iceland; what instructions have been given to the commanding officers concerned; and for how long it is proposed to continue to use Her Majesty's warships for this purpose.

Two of Her Majesty's ships are at present protecting British trawlers off Iceland; their instructions are to protect British fishing vessels which, under international law, are fishing on the high seas.

I cannot forecast how long it may be necessary to use Her Majesty's ships for this purpose. I would, however, remind the hon. Member that Her Majesty's Government have on a number of occasions made suggestions for the negotiation of a temporary settlement of this dispute pending the results of the next United Nations Conference on the Law of the Sea, due to start in March next year.

Would the Civil Lord agree that the two ships at present engaged do not give an entirely accurate picture of the extent of this naval commitment? Would he further agree that, in view of the damage being done to British merchant interests as well as to British relations with many other countries, including our allies in N.A.T.O., it is very desirable that some method other than gunboat diplomacy should be tried to solve our differences with what is a traditionally very pro-British and loyal allied country?

We have had two or three ships there. It is true that large numbers, in their turn, have served in this important undertaking, but I would agree with the hon. Gentleman that naturally we would like to have a settlement. We do not wish to see disputes, particularly between allied N.A.T.O. nations, and the sooner we can come to an amicable settlement the better.

Can the Civil Lord say how many nations have now agreed to the 12-mile limit which is the cause of the dispute and of the need for our ships to be in the area?

That is a question which should be put down to my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary and not to the Civil Lord.

Is the Civil Lord aware that, whilst our ships are unable to put into Icelandic ports for assistance when required, the Navy performs an invaluable task in giving help to our fishermen who are grateful for the assistance they get?

I am glad to have the endorsement of the hon. Gentleman and of the House in general in respect of the wonderful work which our fishery protection vessels have done in this task.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty how many rear-admirals, vice-admirals, admirals, and admirals of the fleet are now on the active list of the Royal Navy; how many of them are commanding ships; and how many commanding shore establishments; and if he will give a breakdown of duties performed by the others.

Fifty-seven rear-admirals, 19 vice-admirals and 10 admirals. Admirals of the Fleet are always on the active list but at present only one is on full-time service.

In the second and third parts of his Question I assume that the hon. Member is referring to flag officers having sea-going ships under their command and those in overall command of shore establishments respectively. There are 12 of the former and 18 of the latter.

The break-down referred to in the last part of the Question contains a number of figures and I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

As it appears from those figures that there are 86 admirals, apart from admirals of the fleet, and that only 30 are in active commands, does not the Civil Lord think that, in view of the small size of the Royal Navy as compared with previous times, it is rather top-heavy with admirals?

I think it is the experience of all three Services—and incidentally, of business—that it is not possible to have an efficient organisation if one tries to skimp on the top management.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty on what charge a rating from H.M.S. "Leopard" was sentenced to a whipping by a Capetown court on 29th September, 1959; what other punishment was imposed; and what representations he has made to the Government of South Africa in regard to this case.

The rating concerned was charged with contravening the Immorality Act of South Africa with a coloured woman on 17th September, 1959. No punishment other than six strokes of the cane was imposed, and this was suspended for two years. No representations have been made to the Government of South Africa in regard to this case.

As there is some concern at the fact that naval ratings in South Africa should be sentenced to whipping for matters which are not considered crimes in this country, will the Civil Lord make representations to the South African Government about this case, or ask his right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to mention the question when he later visits Africa?

I do not think that I can add anything to what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said yesterday about his visit. Perhaps I could commend to the hon. Member the third leader of The Times. If he reads that he may have less questions of this sort to ask.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty how many serving men, and how many in the electrical mechanic category, respectively, applied for discharge by purchase at the last two reviews; and how many were successful.

One thousand and ten applications were considered at the last two reviews, including 113 from electrical mechanics. Seven hundred and seventy-two applicants were successful, including 37 electrical mechanics.

In view of the very small numbers involved, compared with the Admiralty's total complement, would not it be a good thing to be a little more generous, particularly with the latter category, in allowing these men to be released when they and their families are willing to pay such considerable sums of money to enable them to get out of the Navy? Is it not a fact that the Navy would probably do best to allow them to go, because they are no longer serving willingly?

The category to which the hon. Member has just referred is in short supply in the Navy. We have trained these ratings to a considerable degree and the Navy is exceptional in that it allows even a small percentage of those in scarce categories to be released in this way. Perhaps I should remind the hon. Member that the rating about whom he has written to me, who engaged for 12 years, has served for only 4½ years to date, and we have never released a rating who has more than 6¼ years still to serve. This rating has still 7½ years to serve, and I think that it would be wrong to allow him to jump the queue in this manner.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty why the percentage of commissioned officers now serving in the Royal Navy who have won promotion from the lower deck is appreciably lower than the percentage of serving officers who have won promotion from the ranks in the other two Services.

As my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence indicated in his reply to the hon. Member on 25th November, the percentages he gave included officers who had been sent to officer cadet schools very soon after joining; the Royal Navy figure included virtually no one in that category. My right hon. Friend undertook to look further into the figures, and this is being done.

So far as the Navy is concerned I can give an assurance that no rating who appears to have the qualities needed for commissioned rank will fail to be most carefully considered for such promotion.

Is not the Minister aware that, however one looks at the figures, the percentage of promotions from the lower deck in the Royal Navy is very much lower than in the other Services, and that it is discouraging for people who join the Navy and find that their opportunities of getting to the head of their profession are so limited?

When like is compared with like, I think that the figures will not show as much difference as they appeared to show from my right hon. Friend's Answer last week. I would also mention that one-third is not a bad percentage for officers coming from the lower deck. We are very proud that the situation should continue in that way, and we will certainly consider any good man who comes forward.

Is the Civil Lord aware that recent Answers to Parliamentary Questions have shown that a similar disparity between the Services exists in regard to the selection of cadets as from public schools and State schools? Will he consult his other Service colleagues about all that this seems to involve?

I will certainly consult my right hon. Friends in the other Services. I can only say that I wish more and better chaps were coming forward for the Navy from all types of schools. We could then select all the ones we wanted.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty what proportion of artificers, re-engaging for pension during the last twelve months for which figures are available, had reached chief's rating before re-engagement.

I assume that the hon. Member's Question refers to chief artificers, although all artificers from 3rd class and upwards are paid at the chief petty officer level.

An artificer may re-engage for pension at any time within the last four years of his twelve-year engagement. During the twelve months up to September, 1959 the proportion of artificers who had become chief artificers before executing re-engagements for pension was 8 per cent. Of those who actually commenced their re-engagements for pension during this period, 14 per cent, were chief artificers.

Does not the fact that they attain this rank fairly early in their careers demonstrate the necessity for a master rate?

It would not be true to say that, outside the E.R.As., they all obtain this rank early in their careers. The question of a master rate is a more complicated one, which ought not to be lightly dealt with by way of supplementary questions and answers.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty how many ships there are in the operational fleet; and how many admirals are employed in the Admiralty and elsewhere.

I would refer the hon. Member to page 6 of my noble Friend's Explanatory Statement on the Navy Estimates 1959–60 as regards particulars of ships in the operational fleet. As to numbers of flag officers, 29 are employed in the Admiralty and 58 elsewhere.

If the hon. Member will look at the statement to which he has referred he will see that it works out at about one admiral per ship in the Navy, which is rather ridiculous, is it not?

The hon. Member is not very accurate in his counting. There are 138 ships in the operational fleet, and if we include ships on trials and training and in support, there is a further 97. I am afraid that those figures, added together, exceed 200, so that the figure works out at very much less than one admiral per ship.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty if he will give an estimate of the cost of a British nuclear submarine fully equipped with nuclear-headed ballistic missiles.

I regret that it is not possible to give this estimate.

Since the American Navy has launched vessels of this type, has my right hon. Friend any information as to the cost of those vessels?

The House of Representatives Armed Services Committee said, in a Committee Report in April, that the estimated cost for a nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine was 106 million dollars, which is about £38 million.

If that figure can be given for the United States Navy, and is not contradicted—and that must be a judgment on the highest strategic ground—why cannot the Admiralty give the same sort of figure?

As I said earlier in this House, we have no designs for a submarine of this sort. It would be a little unrealistic, and also unwise, to give an estimate when no such plans have been prepared.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty the present strength of officers and ratings in the Royal Navy; and how this compares with the average during the ten years 1925 to 1935.

There are at present 102,394 officers, ratings and other ranks in the Royal Navy and Royal Marines. The average over the period 1925–1935 was 95,850.

I will, with permission, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a summary of the Vote "A" figures from 1925 to 1935.

Do the figures that the Civil Lord has just given mean that, compared with pre-war days, there is an even better chance of a satisfactory career and promotion for both ratings and officers in the Royal Navy?

I think it does mean that. The modern Navy offers a more varied career and, incidentally, the rewards—the pay and allowances—are very much better, in real terms, than before the war.

Does that reply mean that we are going to have more admirals in the Admiralty?

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty if he will state the cost of the aircraft carrier H.M.S. "Victorious", and the estimated weekly cost of running it.

I presume the hon. Member is referring to the modernisation of H.M.S. "Victorious". which was completed in December, 1957, at a cost of nearly £20 million. The cost of oil fuel and other naval stores used in the ship is estimated at about £9,000 a week, and the pay and allowances of her officers and men amount to about £25,000 a week.

In view of the fact that Her Majesty's Government have given such warm support to Mr. Krushchev's proposals for total disarmament, can the hon. Member say whether this ship could be adapted for giving cruises to old-age pensioners?

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty if he will state the cost of the frigates, H.M.S. "Rothesay", H.M.S. "Londonderry", and H.M.S. "Brighton", and the estimated weekly cost of running them.

These ships are still building, two on the Clydeside and one at Cowes, Isle of Wight, and I cannot give the cost of Her Majesty's ships before they are finally accepted into service.

The cost of oil fuel and other naval stores used by ships of the same class is estimated at £800 a week. The pay and allowances of the officers and men when the ship is fully manned would be about £2,500 a week.

Can the Minister tell us where all this money is coming from?

The Estimates.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the late 4451885 Rifleman Walter Thomson, 1st Cameronians was declared a deserter by a court of inquiry on 9th March, 1942, and that a board of inquiry decided, on 3rd June, 1959, that the original decision of the court of inquiry be annulled, and he now be declared missing, presumed died on active service in Burma, 1942; and, in view of the distress and disgrace caused to the father and relatives of this man over these years, what action he proposes to take to rectify this matter.

I am glad to confirm the facts given by the hon. Member. At the family's request, we conducted a most searching inquiry into this case. In the course of it, more than 150 letters were written to, or received from, survivors of the unit and were examined by a board of inquiry in April this year. I hope that the hon. Member's Question and my reply will serve to make known the fact that no stigma of desertion attaches to the memory of Rifleman Thomson.

I can assure the hon. Member that the father and relatives of this man will appreciate the sentiments he expressed at the end of his reply, but is he aware that for seventeen years the father and sister of this man carried out their own private investigation and inquiry into the original decision by the court of inquiry in 1942, at great personal expense to themselves? Now that the stigma of desertion has been cleared from this man's name by the board of inquiry in June of this year, is it not possible for the hon. Member to ask his right hon. Friend if he could recommend that an ex gratia payment be made to this man's father who is an old-age pensioner and a war-disabled man of the 1914–18 war? That, in itself, would at least compensate him for so many years of distress and heavy financial loss.

I would also like to pay tribute to the perseverance of this man's family, and I am delighted that what has come about has come about, but I take the view that this is not a matter which can be put right by paying compensation. If this man's family has been put to any expense in its inquiries my right hon. Friend will be very pleased to consider the position.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the adverse effect upon Commonwealth Forces of non-European origin, he will issue an order forbidding officers on the active list to make public statements in favour of racial discrimination.

The regulations already forbid serving officers to make public statements on political subjects.

Is not the Minister aware that on 20th November Field Marshal Lord Montgomery made a speech supporting apartheid which created a deplorable impression? In view of this, coming on top of the Government's vote at the General Assembly and their spotty record in Africa, will the Minister make it clear that the Government repudiate the views of Field Marshal Lord Montgomery.

No, Sir. The question of field marshals making statements is another matter, which is raised by the hon. Member in his next Question.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that a field marshal is on the active list? Would it not be a good thing to remind this one that he had better confine his remarks to military matters, about which he may know something?

No, Sir. The question of field marshals on half pay comes up in the next Question.

asked the Secretary of State for War to what extent field marshals are required to observe the rules binding on other officers on the active list in respect of public statements; and whether he will revise the regulations so as to permit of taking retired field marshals off the active list.

It has long been established that a field marshal retires, in fact though not in form, when he gives up his last appointment. He is then at liberty to give expression to his views on political matters, being treated in this respect in the same way as retired officers of the forces, on whom, happily, no restriction is placed.

Could not steps be taken, by retiring field marshals from the active list when they wish to speak politically, to make it perfectly clear that they do not involve Government responsibility in any way? Alternatively—I appreciate the magnitude and difficulty of the task which I am inviting the right hon. Gentleman to perform—could he induce Field Marshal Lord Montgomery to temper valour with discretion when speaking on delicate topics in public?

Field Marshal Lord Montgomery has his rights as I have set them out. It is not for me to interfere.

Is it not obvious that it is the field marshal who is barmy and not us?

asked the Secretary of State for War for how long, on an average, hutted or other accommodation for troops, officially described as temporary, remains in use, in the United Kingdom and overseas; and why the skill of modern architects and designers is not used by his Department to ensure that temporary accommodation is of a reasonable standard of decency and comfort.

No fixed period of use is laid down and the average life of temporary accommodation cannot readily be assessed. As to the second part of the Question, we have been seeking for some time—in consultation with the other Services—a hut which is comfortable, readily transported and erected, and which can be dismantled and used again. We think that this need is met by what is known as the Twynham hut. A number have been ordered, and will be available in the coming year.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that what I was really seeking from him was an official War Office definition of the word "temporary," which would be of great value to future lexicographers? Can he say whether there is any truth in the widely held belief that there are a number of huts still in use at Catterick and elsewhere which were erected as temporary accommodation during, or even before, the First World War?

I cannot indulge in semantics with the hon. Gentleman, but our policy is clear. We want to build as many permanent constructions as we can. As the hon. Gentleman will discover if he looks through the Estimates, since 1947 £100 million has been spent on permanent accommodation. We are spending now at an even greater rate than the previous figure of about £8 million—at about £11 million—and we hope this year to spend more. It must be the case, with a changing Army and changing commitments, that we must make a major investment in permanent accommodation which in the long term is more suitable.

asked the Secretary of State for War for how long Gilgil Camp, Kenya, has been in use; which units have been stationed there; for how long in each case; at approximately what date, and at whose charge, the improvements costing £75,000 were put in hand; why they were not undertaken sooner; why the permanent accommodation at Kahawa is not to be ready before 1961; and how much longer the unit at present at Gilgil will have to stay there.

As this Question is in fact seven questions the Answer must be long and I will, with permission circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Can the hon. Gentleman at least say whether the recent Press report is correct—it was confirmed in part by a constituent of my own—which stated that a local brewery had provided a dozen tin baths for this camp which were lacking up to then? Was the cost of those baths included in the figure of £75,000? Why should troops have to live on the charity of a brewery?

That is the only question which the hon. Member did not put on the Order Paper. My right hon. Friend dealt with the comment in, I think it was, the Daily Express last week, and he corrected certain errors which did there appertain. Regarding tin baths, the main point is that the unit is fairly well equipped with showers. As the hon. Gentleman will appreciate, and as hon. Members will well know, in that climate a shower is a more convenient method of washing than a bath.

Can the hon. Gentleman say when the showers were installed? Will he look again at my Question on the Order Paper, multiform as it is, when he will find that I did ask on whose charge this expense had been incurred?

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will await my Written Answer.

asked the Secretary of State for War how many of the 1,250,000 pairs of surplus Army boots have been sold; how much they realised; and what is the timetable for the completion of the operation.

About 890,000 pairs have been disposed of and the sales should be completed by February. Until then, in order to safeguard these remaining sales, prices cannot be disclosed.

Is it not laughable that this House cannot be given information which is known to every dealer who is buying these boots? Is it not the fact that boots which cost £2 a pair have been and are being sold at between 8s. 6d. and 10s. a pair? If that is not correct, will the hon. Gentleman deny it now?

It is my duty to protect the public purse in so far as I can. These boots are being sold overseas and I am not prepared, nor am I willing, to confirm prices reached until the sales have been completed.

asked the Secretary of State for War (1) whether he is aware, with reference to the trial of Lieut.-Colonel H. R. Sandford by general court martial at Quetta, India, in 1934, that the receipt which was the subject of the third charge against the accused was at Quetta, in or about October, 1933, while it was in the possession of the military authorities, shown for identification to Major W. H. Kerr, who immediately identified it as being written in the handwriting of Captain A. N. Youett, and that a few days later Captain Youett explained to Major Kerr why he has signed the name of L. Williams on the receipt; and why Major Kerr was not called as a witness at the trial;

(2) whether he is aware that, during the trial by general court martial at Quetta, India, in 1934, of Lieut.-Colonel H. R. Sandford, counsel for the accused made two written submissions to the court praying that the original record of the proceedings, taken down by the Judge Advocate in court in his own handwriting under the provisions of military law then in force, should be preserved; and whether these two submissions were forwarded to the confirming officer, and are now in the custody of the Judge Advocate General.

I must refer my hon. Friend to the Answer which I gave him on 11th November.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that Colonel Sandford has become accustomed over a quarter of a century to the evasion and stone-walling of the Judge Advocate General's Department? Is he aware that I have in my hand the sworn affidavit of Major Kerr which is dealt with in Question No. 19, and that if Major Kerr had been called as a witness his evidence would have been a complete refutation of the charges against Colonel Sandford? Is he aware that I have in my hand a sworn affidavit of Mr. O'Sullivan, barrister-at-law, the defending counsel at the court martial, which states categorically that alterations were made to the record of the court martial?

The petitions, appeals and so on connected with this case have gone on for twenty-five years and I was astonished to see the accumulation of paper which had gathered in that time. It is indeed a monument to the patience, care and sense of justice of the machinery of military law. But it is the simple fact that in these voluminous papers there is no sign of the slightest miscarriage of justice in this case. Mr. Sandford was tried and convicted at a court martial at which he decided not to give sworn evidence on his own behalf. There have been many representations made to the Army Council over the past twenty-five years. The question of his sentence has been before the High Court and Court of Appeal, and the matter was ruled against him. What I told the hon. Gentleman last week, and I must tell him again, is that, having examined what has gone before, in my view nothing has come to light in this matter hitherto to suggest that justice was not done by the original findings and sentence confirmed by the Army Council, and I cannot review the case again unless new facts not hitherto presented are brought to light.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that when this case came before the Court of Appeal the Army Council protested that the Court had no jurisdiction and therefore no evidence was taken?

I require notice of that supplementary question.

I have not heard about this matter before, but will the Secretary of State confirm what to me seems a remarkable thing? Were the affidavits referred to by the hon. Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Cooper) considered by the various authorities which decided that there was no case for review?

That question is not on the Order Paper and before answering it—these are technical and legal questions—I must have notice.

The Secretary of State said that he would not review the case unless new evidence not hitherto considered was brought to light. I am asking him whether these affidavits in his view represent new evidence and, if so, will be consider it?

Without examining the considerable files on this subject I cannot say whether they represent new evidence, but if they do, I will examine it.

I put down two specific Questions on the Order Paper, Nos. 19 and 20, and they could not be more precise. My right hon. Friend has made no effort whatsoever to answer them today. All the facts I have given are in the files at the War Office.

I told my hon. Friend that I could not again go over evidence already presented and considered, in some cases, numerous times before. Where these Questions are concerned that is so.

Would not my right hon. Friend agree that the fact that this case has been going on for twenty-five years is no evidence of the established guilt of Colonel Sandford? May I remind him that the Dreyfus case went on for a long time as well?

So did the Oscar Slater case.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of my right hon. Friend's reply, I beg to give notice that I shall endeavour to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for War what accommodation, temporary and permanent, will be available for the Royal Highland Fusiliers in Aden.

The battalion will be in huts and under canvas. The first of the new barrack blocks now being built is due for completion in August and it is intended to move members of the battalion into it and into succeeding blocks as they are finished.

asked the Secretary of State for War what progress is being made with the build-up of Regular Forces of officers and other ranks, respectively; and what further inducements in pay and conditions it is in tended to offer in order to attract recruits.

We are still not obtaining the number of officers we need, although there has been a welcome increase this year in the number of cadets entering Sandhurst. I expect some changes in conditions of service to follow the recommendations of the Goodbody Committee.

Where the recruitment of other ranks is concerned, I would refer the right hon. Gentleman to my statement in the debate on 12th November, which goes into the subject in some detail. The biennial pay and pensions review is in progress. An announcement about the findings will be made in the New Year.

Is not it now rather unlikely that the right hon. Gentleman will reach his target of 185,000 officers and men in the stipulated period? If so, will not he require to undertake some drastic action to attract more recruits?

I cannot agree. The original target was 165,000. We were recruiting over that and we were allowed to recruit up to a ceiling around 180,000. We will certainly reach the target of 165,000 by the beginning of 1962 as things are now going. I hope the figure will be somewhat above that. It will still be filling up as the years go on.

Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that there are difficulties about special categories of technicians and other ranks, and may we expect that in the pay review special attention will be paid to those categories?

There are shortages in certain categories. The right hon. Gentleman will not expect me to comment on the forthcoming pay review.

asked the Secretary of State for War what reductions in officers and other ranks at the disposal of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation it is intended to make in 1960; and if he will make a statement.

I am unable to make any statement at present.

Is not that a very unsatisfactory reply in view of the statements which have appeared recently in the Press, in the form of several articles by alleged military experts who seem to be in close contact with N.A.T.O. and who make specific statements about reductions? In view of the fact that the Belgian Government have already made several reductions and in view of the defection of the French due to physical difficulties, is not it necessary that we should know what are the intentions of Her Majesty's Government?

I can only repeat that, where the British Army of the Rhine is concerned at present, I cannot comment further.

When will the hon. Gentleman be able to make a comment?

I cannot say.

Does not the Minister agree that this is a serious matter? We are now at the end of 1959 and the situation in N.A.T.O. is causing everyone a great deal of concern, as those of us who were at the recent conference at Washington well know. Does he mean that we have under consideration making a further cut next year?

I can only suggest that the right hon. Gentleman is not necessarily right in assuming that, but at present I cannot make a statement.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether Corporal John Ingham is still employed at the Guards Depot, Caterham; and on what duties.

No, Sir. He has been moved to regimental duty with a battalion at another station.

Is it not the fact that this N.C.O. was found guilty at a court martial of striking and ill-treating recruits on several occasions? Does not the hon. Gentleman think it rather surprising that he was still considered suitable to hold non-commissioned rank? May we have an assurance that he will not be put in a position where he will be in charge of recruits?

It is not for me to comment on the findings of a court martial. Of course, the offence will be borne in mind when his future employment is considered.

We are not asking the hon. Gentleman to comment on the findings of the court martial, which are clear enough; but does not it seem very strange that after such a sentence this man is considered a proper person to hold a non-commissioned rank?

I am prepared to defend this, since it was confirmed by the proper authority. Looking into the background of this man, his past history, and the excellence of his previous record, I think that both the confirming authority and the court martial were right.

Is there not a misunderstanding here? Does the hon. Gentleman confirm that he said that he cannot comment on the findings of a court martial? Is he aware that his right hon. Friend can either confirm or act otherwise in connection with the findings of a court martial?

I agree with the right hon. Gentleman. In this case I do not propose to comment on it.

asked the Secretary of State for War the ranks and appointments of the Army officers to be appointed to the staff of the new Royal Air Force Tactical Transport Group.

Details have yet to be settled, but I expect to appoint tour or five officers headed by a lieutenant-colonel.

Does this mean that in the reformed No. 38 Group there will now be an integrated staff of officers of the Royal Air Force and the Army? In view of the ever-growing importance of this, would it not be a good thing if a similar integration of Royal Air Force officers into the Army could also be effected?

The setting up of the Tactical Transport Group is most welcome to the Army, which will have representation on it. If the right hon. Gentleman has any specific suggestions as to where Royal Air Force and Army officers might be integrated and will let me know, I will gladly look into them.

asked the Postmaster-General what steps he is taking to improve the postal service in Manchester and between Manchester and London.

The standard postal services in Manchester and between Manchester and London are already in line with those provided elsewhere. If my hon. Friend will let me have any criticisms he has I shall be glad to look into them.

Is my hon. Friend aware that letters sometimes take two days to travel from one part of Manchester to another, and that parcels between London and Manchester very frequently take two days?

If my hon. Friend will let me have specific instances, I shall be very glad to look into them. The delays of which we have had complaints so far are very often caused by the lateness of trains, and in some cases are due to the absenteeism of postmen who are sick. I should be very glad to have specific instances so that we can look into these matters.

asked the Postmaster-General whether he is satisfied with the working of the inland telegraph service; and if he will make a statement.

I refer my hon. Friend to my reply to the hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) on 25th November, 1959. I will gladly consider any views my hon. Friend would like to put to me.

Will my right hon. Friend confirm that there is no truth in any of the rumours that he is considering the abolition of the inland telegraph communications service, which plays such a vital part in the communications of this country?

Yes. I have no imminent changes in view for the telegraph service, although we would all like to cut down the substantial loss.

asked the Postmaster-General if he will consider the introduction of the French Giro system in connection with the Post Office Savings Bank.

The question raised by the Radcliffe Report whether the Post Office should in certain circumstances set up a Giro system on continental lines raises big issues. It requires, and is receiving, exhaustive study. I cannot yet say when conclusions will be reached.

As the right hon. Gentleman is aware, the Post Office Savings Bank has been the "Cinderella" service of the Post Office for a very long time. Will he apply his energies to trying to bring this Cinderella very much to the front and to give it this injection of new opportunities of serving the people?

I am hoping to apply my energies in many directions, but it is rather doubtful whether the Savings Bank system as such, which after all is essentially a deposit system, could be adapted to a system involving current transactions. We shall have to examine that very carefully. We also have to consider whether in this country, with its highly developed joint stock banking system, the Giro system would meet the public need.

We hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not allow the private interests of the joint stock companies to stand in the way of what may well be a very great social convenience.

I made it clear that we are carrying out a purely objective examination. I hope to report back to the House quite soon.

asked the Postmaster-General if he will take steps to relax the restriction on recruitment of stiff for his Department in view of high unemployment in North Wales.

We are very much alive to the unemployment position in parts of Wales and seek to recruit there to the limits of our ability. We cannot take on more people than we can economically employ within the bounds of the work to be done and the money available to us.

In view of the high level of unemployment of which the Assistant Postmaster-General says she is aware and as there are a number of unfilled vacancies in the Post Office in North Wales, does not she feel that the Post Office has a moral obligation to make a contribution towards solving the unemployment problem?

I am advised that in some Welsh towns where there is unemployment the local postal staff have urged that extra staff should be engaged instead of overtime being worked. In such cases, we maintain our complement at the fullest economic level. In North Wales the present complements are fully up to strength.

Is the hon. Lady aware that a very large number of young slate quarriers now redundant in their own industry have applied for vacancies at the regional office of the Post Office at Chester? In view of the special suitability of these young men for this kind of work and the undoubted need for development in North Wales, will she and the Postmaster-General have another look at their programme of works in the area?

We are indeed keeping this constantly under review.

asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that long queues of pensioners have to wait at Weoley Castle sub-post office on Tuesdays in order to draw their pensions; how many pensions are paid out weekly at this office; and what further improvement in service he will provide to reduce this waiting which causes hardship in winter weather.

About 2,600 pensions and allowances are paid weekly at the Weoley Castle sub-post office. When a lot of people arrive at the office together, as happens at certain periods on Tuesday, it has been difficult to avoid some waiting. The sub-postmaster has now engaged a third assistant to help speed the work; and this, together with the recent removal of the office to larger premises, will mean better facilities all round for the sub-office's customers.

I am much obliged to the hon. Lady, but may I ask whether she is aware that, with the present miserable level of old-age pensions, many people must get hold of them as soon as possible? Is it not adding insult to injury to make them queue in the rain in areas like this waiting for their pensions to be paid over?

I am advised that the difficulty arises largely because 40 per cent, of the payments are made on Tuesdays and these are mostly children's allowances. The mothers call for the children's allowances either at nine o'clock when they have taken the child to school or at 11.45 when they are calling for the child at lunch time. The difficulty is usually caused by as many as thirty mothers arriving together at the Post Office. We have taken every step that we can to improve the position.

asked the Postmaster-General whether he has yet come to a conclusion about Christmas morning postal delivery; to what extent he has found it possible to give the postmen an opportunity to spend Christmas Day with their families; and whether a postman will, in the future, be given the opportunity of being with his family at Christmas dinner.

There will be the usual Christmas morning delivery this year. We shall do all we can to see that postmen who make the delivery are released as early as possible. Provided there are no exceptional mail delays, they should generally get home in time for their Christmas dinner. I am not able at this stage to say what might happen in future years.

Is the Minister prepared to sound public opinion on the matter?

Yes. We should welcome an expression of opinion on this matter. As a public service we have to weigh in the balance the convenience of our own staff against the wishes of the public in general.

asked the Postmaster-General if he is satisfied with the building programme so far as it affects the St. Helens, Lancashire, General Post Office; and whether, in view of the part played by the Post Office in the local and national economy, he will provide more money and ensure the general speeding-up of new buildings so far as St. Helens Post Office needs are concerned.

I am anxious to provide better accommodation for the Post Office at St. Helens. The difficulty has been to obtain a suitable site on which to build. The matter is being actively pursued and I will write to the hon. Member as soon as I can say something definite.

I should like to take the opportunity to invite the Minister to visit St. Helens to make an on-the-spot examination of building requirements.

I am sure that the hon. Member realises the difficulty of finding a suitable site in the middle of St. Helens. Our present difficulty is that the road improvements mean that we cannot extend our present site. We are doing everything we can to find a new site on which we can extend our post office.

When the hon. Lady accepts my hon. Friend's invitation to visit St. Helens, will she try to find out how the banks and insurance offices are finding the sites so readily?

asked the Postmaster-General if he has completed his consideration of policy regarding the issue of special stamps to mark special occasions; and if he will make a statement.

No, Sir.

Does the hon. Lady, who has conducted herself so admirably in the House today, intend to tell us that in the next five years Scots people will not be able to have a stamp of Robert Burns but that we shall still have to import them from the Soviet Union?

We have gone into the whole question of separate issues very carefully. I realise the hon. Member's interest in this matter. I shall be making an announcement about this in the very near future.

asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that the funds available to the British Broadcasting Corporation are not sufficient for it to carry out the duties with which it is charged; and what proposals he has for increasing its revenue.

As already announced, the B.B.C. represented that the 87½ per cent, of net licence revenue available to it in the three years 1957–58–1959–60 would not be adequate for 1959–60. For this year 92½ per cent, is being paid and this will meet requirements. The proportion of licence revenue payable for future years is under consideration.

Does the right hon. Gentleman think that the amount available is sufficient? Is not it necessary to have a television studio in the East Midlands? Has he been approached with that end in view by the Leicester City Council and other authorities? If there is sufficient money available, why on earth does not he grant that facility?

There is nothing in the hon. Gentleman's Question about that particular facility, but the present 92½ per cent, this year represents an increase in income of about £2½ million. The B.B.C. has asked for more for next year and the year after. That request is under consideration.

On a point of order. I asked the Minister a specific question, whether he thought that there was sufficient money available for the reasonable needs of the B.B.C. As he stated that there was sufficient, I asked in my supplementary question why he does not grant essential facilities.

That is not a point of order for me. The right hon. Gentleman need not answer anything if he does not want to.

I assured the hon. Gentleman that the income of the B.B.C. is sufficient to enable it to discharge the duties with which it is charged. If the hon. Gentleman wants to ask a pointed question on a particular case he has in mind, I shall be very glad to answer it if he will table it.

asked the Postmaster-General if he will use his powers under Section 9 (2) of the Television Act, 1954, to direct the Authority to refrain from broadcasting in apparently documentary style any fictional matter casting an adverse light upon the officers of Her Majesty's Prison Service.

The Authority tells me that both it and the programme company regret that the dialogue of a recent play contained remarks which seemed to cast an unfair reflection on the Prison Service as a whole, though it says there was no intention of presenting a misleading picture of the Prison Service. Specialist advice on this series is now being obtained and the Authority and programme contractors are watching the matter carefully.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the programme in question, namely, "Probation Officer" televised on 23rd November at 9.35 p.m., caused considerable concern to numbers of my constituents who are giving devoted service in Her Majesty's Prison Service at Wormwood Scrubs under very difficult and often hazardous conditions?

Yes. If I were a prison officer I should have been angry with certain things which were said in that programme, but I assure my hon. Friend that processes are now under way whereby I hope that the Authority will be able to make amends for that.

Is it not a good thing that the B.B.C. has apologised for its departure from the usual high standard of its documentaries, and should not that in itself be some consolation to those men who feel hurt by what was said?

There is a slight misunderstanding here. The Authority was the Independent Television Authority.

asked the Postmaster-General if his attention has been called to the evidence appended to the Third Report of the Public Accounts Committee dealing with the charges made for the exclusive use of radio and telephone links by the Independent Television Authority; and what directives he proposes to issue thereon.

None, Sir. We look for the same profit from the I.T.A. as from the B.B.C. or any other customer requiring similar facilities. I think it would be wrong in principle for a public service to impose discriminatory charges.

asked the Postmaster-General whether he will initiate a conference at international level to deal with the problem of bad reception of broadcasts on the medium wave-band.

The International Radio Conference now being held at Geneva will discuss the advisability of calling an early European broadcasting conference to review long- and medium-wave allocations. It may be found better to defer this until very high frequency sound broadcasting—which seems to be the answer to bad reception on medium waves—has developed sufficiently in Europe to make a review of the situation realistic and worth while.

Whilst congratulating the Minister on all that his Department has done in the provision of high quality V.H.F. reception of British programmes in this country, may I ask whether he is aware that one of the outstanding assets of radio is as a channel of international communication and the reception of foreign broadcasts? In recent years that has become practically impossible. Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that it is bad that radio, which was once international, is now becoming almost exclusively national? Will he take this up as a matter of very grave importance?

Yes. I will take note of what the hon. Gentleman says and have discussions about it.

asked the Postmaster-General what estimate he has made of the number of sound and television receiving sets operating in the United Kingdom without licence; and how many of these were detected in the past year.

No reliable estimate can be given of the number of sound and television sets operating in the United Kingdom without licences. I cannot give a number of those detected using sets without a licence, but over 100,000 people took out sound or combined television and sound licences as a direct result of investigations made during 1958.

Are any new devices being considered by which those who have not paid their licence fees can be detected?

Not that I know.

asked the Postmaster-General approximately how many licences were issued for sound broadcasting and television during the last twelve months for users of sets in the Borough of Leyton.

No separate record is kept of licences for sound broadcasting and television issued in the Borough of Leyton and I am sorry that the information is not available.

Can some means be found by which this estimate can be secured, to give some idea of the number which are operating in a given area?

Unfortunately our records refer only to regions. If the hon. Member is violently interested I will try to give him an estimate.

asked the Postmaster-General what arrangements exist at telephone exchanges for the pro vision of the names of general practitioners available in an emergency for National Health patients who are the victims of a medical emergency, and who are unable by reason of having moved to a new address to obtain their own doctor; if he is aware of the difficulties experienced on occasions by night operators in this respect; and if he will make a statement.

Telephone exchanges prepare their own lists of general practitioners for reference in emergency, but I am arranging with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health for official lists of National Health Service doctors to be supplied to exchanges.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the energy with which he has tackled this matter is greatly appreciated and that it is hoped that it will provide an inspiration to those who, in other spheres, are responsible for these arrangements?

asked the Post master-General by what date he can guarantee providing a telephone service for Mr. H. C. Cooksey, 114, Elmwood Way, Basingstoke, Hampshire.

Unfortunately, a new cable is required before service can be provided. My best estimate is that Mr. Cooksey will have telephone service by the end of June next, but if we can make it sooner we shall.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that, although Mr. Cooksey's is a residential property, it is used for business purposes and he is suffering severely financially from the absence of a telephone? When he moved in in July he was informed that the telephone would be laid on within three months. It then was a further six months, and now it is a year from the date when he first applied. Would it not be possible to fix up a temporary connection from the telephone line going to Winklebury Post Office?

I assure my hon. Friend that I have examined this complaint in very considerable detail. The existing underground cable is about 150 yards from Mr. Cooksey's home and it would not be either economical or practical to connect his home with that cable. I have also examined the possibility of putting in an overhead cable, but the interference from an overhead electric cable would be so great that the telephone would be almost valueless.

On a point of order. Mr. Speaker. I seek your guidance on whether in your opinion this is the sort of Question which should be on the Order Paper. If we all tabled Questions about constituents who cannot get a telephone service, the Order Paper would be completely flooded out.

Further to that point of order. Is it not the right of an hon. Member to raise a constituency point when he has reason to believe that a constituent has not been treated properly by a Department?

My sole task is to decide whether or no the Question is in order. It is in order.

asked the Postmaster-General if he will supply cheaper telephones to old-age pensioners living alone, to whom the use of a telephone is essential on medical grounds.

I have much sympathy with elderly people in such circumstances, but it has never been found practicable for the Post Office to apply differential telephone charges to particular groups. I am ready to look at this again but frankly I doubt whether I shall be able to find a way by which the Post Office can meet the hon. Member's proposal.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask whether he is not aware that many old people regard the telephone as their only means of calling the doctor when they are living alone? Will he look more sympathetically on this vital matter to old people?

I have indicated my sympathetic approach and my willingness to re-examine the matter.

Is not it possible to fit a bell?

Does not the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that the best way of meeting the need is by reducing the telephone charges?

asked the Postmaster-General when he received the signed authority of a Secretary of State to permit interception of a telephone conversation at Reading on 20th April last.