asked the Minister of Transport whether he will now make a statement about the extension of the 40 miles-per-hour speed limit outside the London traffic area.

asked the Minister of Transport when, in view of the urgency of the matter, he expects to be able to present the Road Safety Committee's Report to Parliament.

I have received a report from the Departmental Committee on Road Safety on the results of the experiment with a 40 miles-per-hour speed limit which has been in progress in the London Traffic Area since March, 1958. I am satisfied that the experiment has been a success and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland agrees with me that the powers to impose 40 miles-per-hour speed limits should now become available throughout the country. I propose, therefore, to make the report available to both Houses of Parliament and in the near future to make a commencement order which will be subject to affirmative Resolution and which will bring into force the relevant parts of Section 4 of the Road Traffic Act, 1956.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that Answer. May I ask whether, when he makes the order, he will use his power with discretion and will not impose a speed limit of 40 miles-per-hour all over the country but only where it has been proved to be necessary?

Certainly.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will insert into the list of questions for reply by applicants for driving licences, one asking whether the applicant has driven a motor vehicle during the past twelve months; and if he will ensure that if an applicant has not so driven he shall only be permitted to buy a provisional licence with all the resulting legal obligations.

I have nothing to add to the Answer I gave to the hon. Member on 2nd December about the grant of driving licences.

Has the right hon. Gentleman not had an opportunity since then of examining this point? Is it not important that a person who may have held a licence for thirty years but had never driven in the course of that period should not still be in a position to drive a car which is an instrument which may do damage and endanger the public? Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that something ought to be done about that?

There are many amendments and refinements which could be made to the present procedure. At present the driving test system is under great stress and strain. I think we ought to get that straight before we add to the difficulties.

asked the Minister of Transport the establishment for driving test inspectors at the Lee Green Test Centre; and the present strength.

The complement of the Lee Green test centre is six examiners, and all are in post. We hope to open an additional centre in the same area if suitable premises can be found.

I thank my hon. Friend for his reply; but, in view of the considerable waiting period at this centre at the moment, will he take urgent steps to bring the new centre into being? Will he also bear in mind the considerable inconvenience of the four months' delay in taking a further driving test if a person should be unfortunate enough to fail? This is very inconvenient to people who can take instruction only from professional driving schools.

As the House knows, this is a difficult problem. But if we can find suitable premises in this area—and we are doing all we can to find them— we will open a new centre, with a complement of an additional four examiners

asked the Minister of Transport whether, with a view to freeing traffic congestion, he will consider progressively eliminating traffic making right-hand turns by one-way streets and other means.

There are limits to the extent to which these solutions can be successfully applied in the irregular London street pattern, but I agree in principle that right-hand turns should be eliminated wherever possible, and will apply this measure as widely as I can.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that that Answer will give a great deal of satisfaction, since the right-hand turn is undoubtedly one of the worst factors in traffic congestion?

asked the Minister of Transport (1) if he will make a statement on the matters he studied during his recent visit to the Continent and the United States of America;

My visit to the Continent was primarily to see for myself the methods being adopted in Europe to utilise the latest techniques of bridge design and construction. The visit satisfied me that British design and construction match work being done elsewhere. It may not therefore be necessary to make radical changes in present arrangements but, to ensure that full advantage is taken of the latest ideas and techniques, I am continuing to study whether it is desirable to try out new arrangements experimentally. I intend in any case that the partnership between my Ministry, bridge designers and bridge builders should be made as close as possible.

I thank the Minister for that reply. Can he hold out any hope of making economies in road or bridge building? Secondly, has he studied the system of toll charges which operates in America?

On the first part of the hon. Member's supplementary question, it is difficult to compare costs in foreign countries with those in this country, because of the many variables, such as the rate of exchange, but we may be able to make slight economies. More than anything else, we might be able to add to the amenities. As for the second part of the supplementary question, toll roads in America are now being abandoned. They were successful largely because they were long roads in congested areas, with limited points of access. Since this country is so much smaller there are more points of access. At places like bridges and tunnels tolls seem to be suitable all the world over, but opinion in America is against the provision of further main toll roads.

Can we take it that toll roads are out?

No. I was giving the American experience.

Did my right hon. Friend observe the excellent lane discipline that exists in the United States, and contrast it with the lack of discipline in this country? Has he any legislation in mind, or any alterations to the law, which might improve lane discipline in this country?

Lane discipline in America is better than it is here, but that is largely because American roads are marked accordingly. In the early days of the M.1 it was an appalling spectacle to see drivers going all over the road, but the latest reports show that lane discipline is being gradually assimilated by the drivers, and that they are beginning to observe the lane rules.

Can the Minister state whether his investigations into road and bridge building in America will expedite the building of a bridge over the River Medway?

I did not look at road and bridge building in America, but I did in Germany and France. The bridge over the Medway will be a splendid one, and will be built fairly soon.

In view of the Minister's experience of American trunk roads, can he assure the House that there will be no question of building toll roads in this country, and no further consideration of the question of the imposition of tolls even at tunnels? The suggestion has been made that there should be the imposition of a compulsory toll for the Tyne tunnel. Will the Minister have another look at this matter in the light of the experience he gained from his travels abroad?

There is no definite commitment. I gave particulars of my experience in America, about which I was asked by the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond). There is another Question on the Order Paper about the Tyne tunnel.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will make a statement on his plans for London traffic.

I hope to announce my plans in the near future.

Since the Minister's return, he will have noted that the condition of London traffic is no better. Can he tell the House as soon as possible whether he intends to extend the Pink Zone scheme, and what are his reflections on it now?

I will certainly make an announcement as soon as possible. Legislation is needed, and administrative and financial problems arise, but the announcement will not be too long delayed.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will, as a matter of urgency, consult with industrial and other organisations concerned, with a view to making plans for greater coordination of road and rail transport so that traffic could be diverted from the most dangerous roads.

Trade and industry already know well the services offered by rail and road. Moreover, the British Transport Commission has also closely consulted them about the railway modernisation plan. The best way to help with the problem which I think the hon. Member has in mind is to improve both road and rail facilities, and this is what is being done.

Would not the Minister agree that if he is ultimately to solve this problem, he will have to consider very seriously a national plan for the coordination of transport; that, as a first step towards relieving the accident problem, he might very well consider the origination of heavy loads in the great conurbations and try to avoid some congestion; and that, if he showed more determination, he might eliminate some of the accidents?

I do not wish to be controversial—it is not in my nature to be so—but the party opposite had a chance of co-ordinating transport, and we saw the results in 1947 and 1948.

Will my right hon. Friend consider the possibility of employing train lorry ferries, comparable to the car ferries now used at certain periods of the year? Will he give serious consideration to this, as it might help to take some of the heavy lorry traffic off the roads?

The British Transport Commission is looking into this. It has adequate facilities for doing it, but is looking into it to see what it can do to get heavy goods off the roads and back on the railways.

Is the Minister aware that the whole question of co-ordination is no longer a political football? We cannot kick it around any longer. Something must be done on a national basis. Is he aware that in the last four years, even traffic on the River Thames has been one-third less than it was, because of traffic going on to the roads? Does not he agree that something must be done to put the traffic back both on the river and the railways?

This is a phenomenon which is happening all over the world. It is exactly the same all over the United States, where, even in Denver, the Denver-Chicago Trucking Company can take goods by road from Chicago to Los Angeles, which is an enormous distance, more cheaply than they can go by rail. They are taking goods away from the railways. The real point is that this is a convenient way of taking goods from door to door, which is the attraction, rather than a question of the cost

asked the Minister of Transport the policy of his Ministry regarding the reception of deputations from Scotland.

I am always ready—

On a point of order. Would the Minister answer Question No. 57 with this Question, which I think he would normally ask permission to do?

That Question has been phrased rather differently. I can understand the hon. Gentleman's reason for being concerned to have it answered with this one, but I am afraid I cannot answer it unless we reach it today.

I do not want to harry the Minister, because I think the incident was rather out of character. Nevertheless, there is strong feeling about it in Scotland. May I ask why, in the first place, a deputation of responsible people was encouraged by him to travel 1,200 miles to meet him in the House of Commons to discuss the closure of branch railway lines in Scotland, after which the Minister proceeded to drive out two Members of the House who were accredited members of the deputation, furthermore to insult the deputation by saying that, whatever they said, it was useless to come here and say it and that he had nothing to do with it, and finally—to quote words attributed to him by the members of that deputation—to threaten that he would "never again receive a deputation of bloody Scots"?

If I may answer the final part of the supplementary question first, I did not use that phrase and I am sure that some hon. Members have evidence that I did not. In any case, I would not dare do it, because I have to attend an annual reunion of the London Scots in my kilt. They tend to be very boisterous, although rather agreeable, affairs and if reprisals were to set in I might lose my dignity.

Whilst hoping that the first-class supplementary question of my hon. Friend the Member for the Western Isles Mr. Malcolm MacMillan) will be credited to me, may I ask whether, on the occasion when he wears his kilt, he will reveal the famous "Marples Master Plan"?

I think that would be unwise in view of police regulations.

asked the Minister of Transport what protests he has received from owner-drivers of taxis in the London area that their earnings have been reduced as a result of his ban on U-turning in the Pink Zone; what reply he has made to these protests: and if he will make a statement.

asked the Minister of Transport what protests he has received against his prohibition of U-turns by London taxi-cabs in the Pink Zone.

On behalf of my right hon. Friend, I received on 23rd December a deputation representing taxi-cab owners and drivers, and further written representations about the experimental ban on U-turns in the Pink Zone area have since been made to me. I have replied that a sufficient period must be allowed before any reasonable judgment on the results of the experiment as a whole can be reached, and that all representations will then be taken fully into account. No protests have been received regarding loss of earnings resulting from the ban.

Would not my hon. Friend agree that it would be perfectly possible, without any disruption of traffic, to exempt taxi drivers, since their vehicles are equipped with a special steering device which enables them to manœuvre?

We thought of that, but we wanted to see how this experiment would work, and to separate categories of vehicles such as taxis would present many problems and blur the whole picture. I think we had better see how this works and then decide if any special exemptions are needed.

Why did the Minister impose this autocratic twenty-four hour ban without any prior consultations with the unions concerned, making it more difficult for taxi drivers to pick up and put down passengers and causing pedestrians—sometimes old and crippled—to cross the road in order to get a taxi? Why is it necessary to stop a taxi turning round in the middle of the road in Piccadilly, sometimes at three o'clock in the morning?

I want to emphasise that this ban is placed on all vehicles, not only taxis. It is important to remember that because some people seem to think that my right hon. Friend has it in mind to persecute the taxi driver, and that is not in fact true.

asked the Minister of Transport, in view of the fact that the civil engineering industries can handle a road programme double or treble the size of the present one, and, in view of the road-building plant and labour which is available but not being used, if he will take steps to minimise this wastage by expanding the size of the present road programme.

asked the Minister of Transport when he is likely to announce his plans for comprehensive road improvements.

I would refer to the reply I gave to the hon. Member for Leicester, North-West (Mr. Janner) on 4th November, to which I have nothing to add at present.

Is the right hon. Gentleman making any progress at all in these matters? Does he realise that the material and the opportunity are there for a much bigger programme than the one he has in mind? Ought he not to take advantage of the fact that these things are available so as to be able to extend the programme?

The hon. Gentleman does not know the programme that I have in mind. He therefore cannot say that the material available is in excess of it. The whole programme is being reviewed.

The Government pledged an increased road programme and we have heard so many hints about the right hon. Gentleman's intentions. Can not he take the House into his confidence to the extent of saying when he intends to make a statement?

I would rather wait until it was final and it was no longer a hint but a confirmed fact.

asked the Minister of Transport the total cost of road schemes authorised in the five years 1955–56 to 1959–60 for Bradford, Bristol, Cardiff, Coventry, Hull, Liverpool, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Sheffield, and Stoke-on-Trent, respectively.

As the Answer is in the form of a table, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

asked the Minister of Transport the reasons for the delays in proceeding with underground car parks at Cavendish Square and the north-east corner of Hyde Park, in view of the fact that satisfactory plans have been ready for many months.

Private developers are interested in these projects, but so far as I know final plans have not been prepared. I am in consultation with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Works about the legal and amenity considerations we have to take into account in the case of the Hyde Park site. Development at either site would require legislation.

Will the Minister give an undertaking that this matter will be pressed on with the utmost speed, in view of the fact that there is an urgent need for such car parks when temporary car parks are not available? Even at this moment the car park on Horse Guards Parade is full. It shows that there is an urgent need to press on with the provision of these vital facilities.

I quite agree about the need for off-street car parks, but if my hon. Friend will have a look at the Lex Garage at Selfridge's, in Oxford Street, he will find that usually it is not full. It depends on what is physically possible. We have to watch the entrances and exits for underground car parks, and we must also keep in mind amenity interests. We must further remember that all this requires legislation.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that one of the reasons why Selfridge's Garage is usually half-empty might be the fact that it costs 4s. to park one's car there for five minutes?

I believe it costs 4s. for a few hours, too.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will consider extending Lower Regent Street into St. James's Park with a view to relieving the serious traffic congestion by St. James's Palace.

This is a matter for the London County Council and the Westminster City Council to consider in the first place, but I cannot hold out any hope that Her Majesty's Government could look with favour at proposals which would involve substantial alterations to Waterloo Place, Carlton House Terrace and the Duke of York's Steps.

Is the fact that substantial alterations may be needed any reason why a scheme which will obviously be of very great advantage, in avoiding congestion in Central London, should not be thoroughly examined?

My hon. Friend will find that in regard to this problem many people have ideas which are different from his. I do not think that there is any point in tearing the heart and soul out of a city by putting up slabs of concrete in the parks, which have been amenities for many years.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will consider, as a temporary expedient, the immediate use of Bailey bridges to hasten the flow of traffic; and, in particular, if he will cause to be erected such a bridge across the Edgware Road to carry the ring road traffic from Marylebone Road to Sussex Gardens.

I am prepared to consider the use of Bailey bridges wherever they prove suitable. In London such matters are the responsibility in the first place of the London County Council and the metropolitan borough concerned.

Is the Minister aware that the carriageway could be widened, if necessary? Is it not a good thing to have some of these Bailey bridges put up for experimental purposes, so that statistics can be obtained and opportunities provided for research and development on the use of these bridges before any permanent structures are put up anywhere?

I have gone very carefully into the question whether there should be temporary arrangements, with Bailey bridges, or permanent arrangements, and I have come down in favour of permanent arrangements being made. It was a very difficult decision. We looked at sites such as Lambeth Palace Road, Kennington Triangle, Temple Mills Bridge, Bow Bridge, Roehampton Vale, and the Toby Jug junction on the Kingston By-Pass. I can assure the House that on balance it is better to concentrate on permanent improvements, but if there are any sites where a Bailey bridge could help out temporarily I will certainly consider them, if hon. Members will give me particulars.

Is not the cheapest way of dealing with the traffic congestion in Central London to keep private cars out of Central London?

I do not think this Government would ever suggest that the private motorist should not be allowed to come into the capital city.

asked the Minister of Transport whether, in view of the great traffic congestion in major cities, he will consider making special grants in aid to local authorities which propose to build multi-storey car parks.

As I stated in reply to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) on 16th December last, it is the Government's policy that the provision of off-street car parks is a matter for local authorities and private enterprise.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that many people believe that the parking difficulties in London and our great cities will never be solved until some multi-storey garages are erected in the centres of those cities? Further, is my right hon. Friend aware that the economic cost of such garages works out at about 12s. 6d. per day per motor car and that on that basis they will never become popular? Therefore, it is thought that these multi-storey garages should rank for grant in the same way as roads.

I cannot accept the principle that off-street parking for motor cars should be subsidised.

asked the Minister of Transport what progress is being made in the preparatory work, so that a start can be made on the proposed Stanway bypass on the London—Colchester—northeast Essex road.

A draft Order to vary the established line of the by-pass at the eastern end was advertised last September, and objections are being considered. A further Order dealing with the treatment of side roads is in preparation.

Is my hon. Friend aware that this is one of the worst bottlenecks on the road between London and north-east Essex and the East Coast, and will he do all he can to speed up this work as much as possible?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Minister of Transport what further rules he proposes to enforce to get a speedier flow of traffic along Eastern Avenue, and the approaches from the East Coast.

Apart from the new waiting restrictions on Eastern Avenue itself, we are considering a clearway experiment on lengths of the approach to it from Southend, which will total over 16 miles.

Is my hon. Friend aware that in Eastern Avenue we have an excellent dual carriageway, and could he see whether it is possible to cut out a number of roundabouts, side turnings and interceptions to enable much better use to be made of the existing facilities?

That is a pretty tall order. I think we ought to consider our clearway experiment first and see how we get on.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind—with due respect to my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich (Mr. Ridsdale)—that this Question is wrongly phrased? We do not want my right hon. Friend to enforce more rules: we want him to relax some of those which already exist. Is my hon. Friend aware that before improvements were carried out on Eastern Avenue it was a derestricted area and that since the road has been improved the speed limit has been reduced to 40 m.p.h.? Will my hon. Friend look into this?

asked the Minister of Transport whether, in view of the Government's intention to increase the road building programme, he will speed up and extend the new road works on the London-Colchester road, beyond authorising £3 million of new work in the next few years.

Comprehensive improvement of this road already has high priority in our programme, and we would prefer to wait until we have made progress with the schemes already in preparation before promising further extensions.

Is my hon. Friend aware that what we want in East Anglia is a proper motorway? Will he ensure that more use is made of existing facilities in addition to the improvements that he has announced?

The programme of improvements already in prospect or completed amounts to £4·6 million. Much of this is for dualling, and I think that we should get through that programme first.

asked the Minister of Transport what was the cost per mile of that section of the London to Yorkshire motorway now in use; what will be the cost per mile of the completed motorway; and what will be the total mileage and the total cost.

The first 73 miles of the London-Yorkshire motorway have cost about £395,000 per mile. Until the detailed design of the northern section of the motorway is completed, it is not possible to give an accurate estimate of its cost, but preliminary investigations suggest that the cost is likely to be of the order of £425,000 per mile so that the cost per mile of the completed motorway would be about £418,000 per mile. The total length will be about 160 miles and the total cost about £66 million.

Would the Parliamentary Secretary agree that this enormous figure—getting on for £½million a mile—represents a huge subsidy to road transport, to the passenger-carrying and freight-carrying interests concerned, some of which are already running scheduled services from London to Birmingham in direct competition with the railways and many of which are carrying goods and passenger traffic which, if the national interest were the criterion, could and should be carried by British Railways?

I should not be prepared to accept that this was an enormous subsidy—

The hon. Gentleman cannot get away from it.

—for the simple reason that the taxation yield on vehicles of all kinds in this country is £560 million a year. I do not think this can be regarded as a subsidy to the roads.

When the hon. Gentleman talks about the total income from motor taxation, is he referring to the day-to-day upkeep of present roads, or the extension of roads, or comparing it with the railways where the capital costs of all roads being used by the vehicles must be borne by the railway authorities?

No, sir. I am talking of the total yield of motor taxation of all kinds.

asked the Minister of Transport if, in view of the number unemployed in Jarrow and Hebburn, he will give permission for the work upon the approach roads to the proposed Tyne tunnel to commence immediately.

We are informed by the highway authorities concerned that work on the tunnel approach roads cannot be started until they have obtained fresh Parliamentary powers for the construction of the tunnel and the approach roads in accordance with their new plans. As the House will know, the councils have now deposited the necessary Bill.

asked the Minister of Transport whether, in deciding the route for new motorways, it is his policy not to consult local land owners before the publication of plans; and to what extent account is taken of existing farm boundaries when drawing up these plans.

There are consultations through the Ministry of Agriculture, with national representatives of the Country Landowners Association, and the National Farmers' Union, before draft schemes are published.

asked the Minister of Transport how many miles of the road to the South-West, London to Exeter, still have only two lanes and therefore no overtaking lane; how many miles have dual carriageways; and how the present position compares with November, 1958.

On the trunk road from London to Exeter (A.4, A.30 and A.303) there are 130 miles with a single two-lane carriageway; 22 miles with a passing lane; and 9 miles with dual carriageways. 2½ miles of this 9 miles have been completed since November, 1958

Is my hon. Friend aware that this rather disappointing progress is having an effect on the South-West and particularly on the tourist industry? Will he do all he can to speed things up?

I am certainly aware of that. That is why our future plans provide for very significant increases in the length of dual carriageways to be finished on this road. The first to be finished will be 1¾ miles between Moorhill and Hatch in Hampshire and 2½ miles of the Staines by-pass to be completed at the end of 1961. There will be more sections of dual carriageway as we go ahead.

asked the Minister of Transport, in view of the importance of adequate communications between London and the conurbation of Poole, Bournemouth and Christchurch, what major improvements he intends to carry out in 1960 on the roads between them.

Apart from the Staines Bypass which is now under construction, we are planning to spend £100,000 in 1960 on the construction of l¾ miles of dual carriageway on A.30 in Hampshire, and £24,000 on the improvement of the junction of A.30 with A.325. Considerable lengths of carriageway in Surrey will be widened from 30 ft. to 33 ft. in the course of resurfacing.

While thanking my hon. Friend for that Answer, which is satisfactory as far as it goes, may I ask him to remember that congestion on these roads is very bad? Will he consider concentrating not so much on widening roads as on duplicating them with dual carriageways?

Yes, we certainly have that in mind.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that, particularly in the Bournemouth-Poole-Christchurch area, where the population is increasing, what might be all right to satisfy demand at present certainly will not be all right to satisfy demand when the present programme has been completed? Therefore, will he be still further adventurous?

The trouble is that the car population is increasing throughout the country. Everyone wants more cars and new roads as quickly as they can get them and we have to fit what we can do into our programme.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will give a general direction to the British Transport Commission to allow railwaymen dismissed through redundancy to continue their tenancies of railway houses.

No, Sir. This is a matter of management for which the British Transport Commission is responsible, but I understand the Commission makes every effort to avoid hardship in cases of this kind.

Does the Minister agree that it is relatively easy for the Commission to retain these tenancies but that it is a matter of great hardship for the individual who is dispossessed? Will the Minister try to bring some influence to bear an the Commission?

I do not think that any influence needs to be brought in this case. The Commission is well aware of the difficulties, as a recent case makes clear, but I will see that the hon. Member's remarks are brought to the chairman's notice.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will give a general direction to the British Transport Commission to publish periodically statistics concerning late arrivals of main-line trains between London and the principal stations in the provinces, together with the causes of such late arrivals, in order to establish a better understanding between the British Transport Commission and the travelling public.

No, Sir. This is a matter of management for which the British Transport Commission is responsible.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that, while the British public are well aware of the fact that repairs have to be carried out, what annoys them is that the timetables issued by British Railways bear absolutely no relation to what happens? Is he aware, for instance, that trains from the north of England due to arrive in London at about 10.30 p.m. are very often two or three hours late [HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—when there are no taxis and no porters? Is it not an absolute scandal that there is no personal representative to help the unfortunate people who on these occasions are left stranded?

This is obviously a matter for the day-to-day management of the British Transport Commission, but it is not only repairs but also modernisation which is causing the inconvenience. Ultimately, the modernisation will make the journeys quicker. If my hon. and gallant Friend will give me details of the occasion when he was two or three hours late, I will certainly go into it. My own constituency is in Cheshire on the other side of the Mersey—the more exclusive side of the Mersey, if I may say so—and I frequently come down on the train from Lime Street to Euston. I certainly can say quite honestly that I have never been as much as three hours late.

Withdraw.

Is not my right hon. Friend aware that the reason why he does not suffer as we do is that he gets V.I.P. treatment?

My career has been full of vicissitudes, and I have spent many a year on the back benches. I still say I have never been three hours late.

Does the right hon. Gentleman also know that very often I travel on the same train as his hon. and gallant Friend, and that there are numerous occasions when it is on time?

I only hope that the hon. Lady can arrange to share the same compartment with my hon. and gallant Friend.

asked the Minister of Transport, in view of the fact that there have been over 1,000 accidents in each of the years since nationalisation, what conclusions have been drawn by his inspectors as to the main causes of railway accidents; and what action his Department has taken with regard to those conclusions.

An analysis of all train accidents by causes is given in the Annual Reports of the Chief Inspecting Officer of Railways, which are available in the Library.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that accidents are now so frequent on British Railways that people have become increasingly anxious about travelling in the front or rear part of the trains? Would my right hon. Friend consider issuing danger tickets or tickets at reduced rates for those who are prepared to risk it in the front or rear coaches?

I cannot agree with the assumptions of my hon. and gallant Friend.

Would the right hon. Gentleman inform his most misinformed hon. and gallant Friend that British Railways are still the safest in the world, and that, because of the safety precautions by the men who are driving the trains, which are very often delayed by fog and signal instructions, trains could be late in trying to run safely?

There is one point which I ought to add. The modernisation plan will not only modernise and electrify the railways, but will bring in the automatic warning system, so that the incon- venience which people will, necessarily, have to suffer in the next 18 months or two years, when travelling to the North and North-West of England, will, in the end, bring quicker and safer trains.

Will not the Minister confirm that the records and the inspectors' reports since the war show that there has been a progressive decrease in the number of railway accidents, particularly those involving injury to passengers and staff, and that that is a great tribute to the progress made as a result of the careful inspections and reports?

If the hon. Gentleman will put down a Question on that subject, I will answer it in detail.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will give a general direction to the British Transport Commission to consult with the President of the Board of Trade and the Minister of Defence as to the economic and strategic importance of railway lines being considered with a view to their closure, and to obtain from them estimates of the economic value of such lines to their respective Departments.

No, Sir. Proposals to close lines are widely publicised and the Consultative Committee procedure permits full account to be taken of the value of a line to trade and industry. Any potential defence interest in a particular railway line affected is, of course, taken into account by the Government Departments concerned.

Where a railway is being closed, would not it be convenient to consider the significance of the Board of Trade trying at a later date to come to the help of a particular area, and trying to improve the economic amenities, when the Commission, having closed the railway, has done exactly the opposite to what the Board of Trade would be trying to do? May I give as an example the possibility of this happening to the Barnard Castle—Penrith line?

If the hon. Gentleman will write to me, I will look into the matter to which he referred in the first part of his supplementary question. Industrial and commercial undertakings and units of the Service Departments may make representations to the B.T.C. or the appropriate Transport Users' Consultative Committee.

May I ask whether the B.T.C. communicates with the Ministry of Defence when the closure of a line is being considered?

All the Ministries are informed and can raise objections if they so wish.

asked the Minister of Transport (1) if he will give an assurance that the Government will give all necessary assistance in implementing in full the findings of the Guillebaud Committee of Inquiry into railwaymen's conditions;

The Committee of Inquiry into railway pay has not yet reported. It will report to the British Transport Commission and the railway unions and it will be for them to consider the Committee's findings within the established negotiating machinery.

Is the Minister aware that we know that the Committee has not reported but the Question was framed in this way in order to make it acceptable to the Table? Is he aware that we seek an assurance that when the Guillebaud Committee presents its Report, which will involve the Commission in additional financial expenditure, the right hon. Gentleman will give a guarantee to the Commission that the Government will support this expenditure? He will know that the Government have been responsible for the Commission showing a cumulative loss of £300 million, after paying interest charges up to now. Is he aware that this is a staggering figure for the Commission to find and that the railwaymen want an assurance that the Commission will get Government backing for any additional financial reward which the Guillebaud Committee may give to them?

This is not a Government inquiry. There are four parties to it, the three unions concerned and the British Transport Commission. They are paying for it. They have jointly decided on its terms of reference, and it would be wrong for me to anticipate the terms of the report.

Is the Minister able to inform the House when the Committee will make its report?

It is expected that it will report some time in April.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that public opinion is rather shocked by the excessively slow way in which this Committee appears to have worked? As the public interest is so deeply involved, will he try to see that on future occasions matters are conducted a little more expeditiously?

It is a complicated task. This is an attempt to bring to an end the vexed question of differentials and, frankly, I think that the less we say about it at the moment the better. I ask the House to bear in mind that it took almost six months to settle the terms of reference of the Committee.

Would not my right hon. Friend concede that, as there is a very large trading loss forward on the British Transport Commission's accounts, any substantial increase in railwaymen's wages will, directly or indirectly, increase that loss forward? Does not that fact transpose matters and cause railwaymen's wages to become much more largely a House of Commons matter than a matter to be left solely for negotiation between the Transport Commission and the trade unions?

My hon. Friend is anticipating the report.

The right hon. Gentleman's hon. Friend may be anticipating the report but he is still making a point which is very important—

I am absolutely right.

I have never been able to distinguish between the modesty of the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) and that of the Minister; it is quite a job. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the finances of the Commission are in such a parlous condition that the Government must make a statement very soon? After all, whether we try to avoid it or not, it looks as though we are heading for a major strike in about a fortnight, and the finances involved are the concern of the Government.

I am well aware of the gravity not only of the short-term situation but of the long-term situation, and I hope that the House will not press me today but will leave the matter till a little later. I can assure the House that it is the long-term as well as the shortterm problem which is causing me concern.

asked the Minister of Transport if he is now able to announce his approval of the project recommended by the London Travel Committee for the construction of a new tube railway from Victoria through North-East London.

I am unable at present to add to the reply on this I gave to the hon. Member on 27th January.

In the meantime, would the Minister be good enough to confirm whether it is true, as reported in today's Press, that preliminary work at a cost of £400,000 is already in progress in connection with trial borings for a mile of this proposed tube from Tottenham to Finsbury Park?

This is an experimental section—I say that without commitment, because I am not sure about the contract which was given by the London Transport Executive—but for many years experiments have been carried out, including construction of shields, which are necessary for a tunnel of this sort.

We are waiting for the right hon. Gentleman to make a statement of policy. This is not a new idea. It has been urged many times in the past. Can he say when he intends to give us his decision?

The report was published on 21st December and today is 3rd February. I ask the hon. Member to be patient a little longer.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will make a further statement on the provision of nuclearpower propulsion for merchant ships.

asked the Minister of Transport when his Department expects to be in a position to place orders for a prototype nuclear marine-propulsion unit; and when he estimates this unit could be undergoing sea trials.

I have nothing to add to the Answer I gave to hon. Members last week about this, except that invitations to tender for a nuclear-propulsion unit have now been issued.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that that is rather disappointing, because I had hoped for a further statement? The reaction to what he said last week is that there seems to be an arguable case that we have lost so much ground in this field of research that we ought to pay more attention to the more advanced forms of reactors submitted to the Galbraith Committee. Will he look at the matter again, as it might be a means of catching up in a race which we appear to be losing?

In this matter, we must bear in mind the astonishing rapidity of big changes now going on all over the world. They are not necessarily solved by going into production. They may be solved by looking at things, and we think that asking for these tenders is the best way of dealing with the matter. The decision whether the ship should be built must be taken in the light of the tenders disclosed.

If my right hon. Friend takes a decision to build the prototype, could he say what is the minimum time before the ship could be in the water?

A ship using a pressurised water reactor might perhaps be got to sea by 1964, but it might well be worth while waiting a little longer to secure the benefits of either the boiling water or the organic liquid moderated reactor.

May I ask my right hon. Friend if he is bearing in mind that if we do not make a forward step soon, the lead which the British shipbuilders have over the whole trade might well be lost, as this period of four years is rather too long a time to wait before the prototype ship begins to start operation?

We had better wait a little longer until we have got the tenders, for which we have now issued invitations, which I think my hon. Friend will admit is a forward step.

Can the Minister say how long it will be before this power could be available for fishing trawlers?

I could not give an answer without notice.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will make a statement about his visit to the United States of America; and what discussion he had with regard to nuclear marine propulsion.

asked the Minister of Transport the nature of his discussions with representative shipping interests in the United States of America; and what conclusions were reached.

My talks were with the United States Government officials and were purely informal. The primary object was to acquaint myself at first hand with their views on shipping policy, and at the same time to reiterate the continuing concern of this country over certain aspects of the United States shipping policy. I emphasised the contrast between the policies of world trade liberalisation advocated by the United States and her restrictive practices in shipping.

Do I understand that that is all that happened during these conversations with American shipping interests and the American Government on this very important matter of the decline of British shipping and the restrictive practices operated by American shipping interests? How long are we to put up with this sort of thing from the United States? Do they regard it as an effective partnership with the United Kingdom, when everything is being done by their shipping interests, endorsed by the American Government, to destroy British shipping? Is no further action to be taken? Are we to take this sort of thing lying down?

I did not conduct, nor did I intend to conduct, direct negotiations. The whole of the European countries are acting together and it would have been wrong of me to have gone in as a representative of this country and initiated talks myself. This is being done collectively and it will be more fruitful because of that.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the American shipowners have made a pronouncement that they reject the representations made by the European and other maritime countries outside the United States? That has appeared recently in the Press. If the right hon. Gentleman denies that, will he tell us what is the present position?

I have not seen it in the Press. If the right hon. Gentleman will send me a copy of it, I will look into the matter. This is the first I have heard about it. So far as I know, there will be informal discussions very shortly.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will make a statement about British shipbuilding.

asked the Minister of Transport if he is now prepared to outline his plans for the future of the shipbuilding industry in this country.

I have discussed with the Shipbuilding Conference and with the Shipbuilding Advisory Committee, on which both sides of the industry are represented, the problems currently facing the industry. I will give careful consideration to any proposals they may wish to put before me.

The right hon. Gentleman will be aware that there is a good deal of anxiety in the shipbuilding industry because of increasing unemployment and redundancy. Would it not be wise of him to discuss this matter with the President of the Board of Trade and possibly to issue a White Paper on the policy of the Government towards shipbuilding areas?

Before I discuss this matter with any of my colleagues in the Government, I ought to discuss it exhaustively with the trades concerned. I met a committee yesterday, and the Shipbuilding Advisory Committee meets tomorrow. We are having these meetings and we have already received from the industries concerned a number of papers which we are now studying.

While the right hon. Gentleman is holding these discussions, will he realise that speed is becoming a factor in the situation which confronts the shipbuilding industry? Will he bear in mind that during the last 15 to 18 months the number of persons employed in the industry has decreased from 210,000 to 190,000? That is creating a feeling of uncertainty amongst all those who are still employed in the industry and is producing instability in the yards. Will he not try to come to a speedy decision—

Get on with it.

The hon. and gallant Member should keep quiet. He consumes more time than anyone in this House.

Order. I hope the hon. Member will keep his supplementary question short.

When the right hon. Gentleman reaches some decision after his consultations, shall we have the opportunity of debating the matter in the House?

The question of a debate is one for my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House, but I am glad to say that this country is now second in the world for building, which is something, and in the last weeks of 1959 100,000 tons of new orders were placed here, including some foreign orders. This is a world-wide problem. I realise that it is serious. When all these consultations have taken place I hope to be making some sort of announcement.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that part of the shipbuilding industry has suggested that an acceleration of the naval shipbuilding programme might be put into operation in order to relieve this temporary recession in shipbuilding? I ask for an assurance from my right hon. Friend that he will discuss this matter with the Admiralty and the Treasury with a view to putting this suggestion into operation.

I should like to look into that.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consult with his other Joint Parliamentary Secretary—not the one who is present answering Questions today—who recently visited the North East? Will he bear in mind that the position is quickly deteriorating in the North East where we have the highest shipbuilding unemployment figure of the country and where 30 per cent. of the boilermakers are unemployed? This position has been aggravated by the arbitrary closure of Messrs. Stephenson and Hawthorn's by English Electric. Unless Government policy on shipbuilding is worked out very soon, the position will he quite serious.

I consulted my noble Friend last evening and I am going to see him again. I am glad to say that the North East has an order for the largest passenger ship for which an order has been placed in recent years.

asked the Minister of Transport to what extent his Department is consulted at any period before the fixing of freight rates by the shipping conferences.

The fixing of freight rates by shipping conferences is a commercial matter and my Department is not consulted.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that many people feel that the time has come for this matter to be closely looked at by the Government, because what amounts to restrictive trade practices carried out by shipping companies have been detrimental to many of our export trades?

It is really in the interests of British shipping, which trades with all countries of the world, that there should be as little interference as possible by the Government with shipping companies.