asked the Minister of Education what steps he is taking to improve the provision of science laboratories in grammar schools and secondary modern schools.

A total of about £5 million will be spent in the 1960–61 and 1961–62 major building programmes to improve laboratory accommodation in existing schools; in addition, new schools have the full range of science facilities. I regard this provision as one of the most important elements in the building programme.

Can the Minister say whether any progress has been made in the last few years to fill the appalling gap reported by the science masters in 1958 in the provision of science laboratories in grammar schools and public schools? Further, is it the fact that the present arrangements will continue the privileged position enjoyed by the public schools because of the Industrial Fund which is, of course, supported at the taxpayers' expense?

Certainly, the public schools have done well with the Industrial Fund, but in the maintained schools we are building every year at a rate higher than ever was spent on the public schools, and, of course, we shall continue to do so.

asked the Minister of Education if he is aware of the financial hardship suffered by many students of dental surgery on account of the obligation to buy expensive instruments at the beginning of clinical training and the fact that many local authorities give little or no assistance to dental students to meet this obligation; and if he will take steps to introduce a uniform system of grants and loans to enable dental students to carry on their training without financial anxiety.

I will consider this problem in the light of any advice I may receive from the Committee under the Chairmanship of Sir Colin Anderson.

While thanking the Minister for that reply, may I ask him whether he is aware that the country urgently needs more students of dental surgery? Although there is extraordinary variation of practice among local authorities, very many of them are not making any grant or loan at all to assist dental students with the exceptional expenditures they have to incur. Will he press the local authorities particularly on this point?

I understand that evidence about this has been tendered to the Anderson Committee. I also understand that the majority of local authorities are following a practice in their awards to dental students similar to the practice in regard to State scholarships—that is, up to £15.

asked the Minister of Education what are the latest figures for the average size of classes in primary and secondary schools, respectively, in the Borough of Acton; and what are comparative figures for the country as a whole.

In January, 1959, the average size of junior classes in Acton was 36·1 and the average size of senior classes 28·9. The comparable figures for England and Wales were 33·1 and 30·4, respectively. The figures for January, 1960, are not yet available.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply, but would he not agree that the standard of secondary education depends on the effectiveness of primary teaching, and that, therefore, the primary classes should be brought down to the same size as the secondary classes? [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Would he not also agree that 30 should be regarded as the maximum rather than as the average?

I quite agree with my hon. Friend that primary education is of the greatest importance to success in secondary schools. We have some way to go before we get down to the official figure.

asked the Minister of Education how many teachers currently employed in maintained schools have received no teachers' training; and how many obtained O-level passes in the General Certificate of Education in not more than three subjects.

Of the 256,000 teachers employed in maintained schools on the 31st March, 1958, 219,500 had received teacher training in England or Wales. Of the 36,400 who had not, about 24,000 were graduates or had other qualifications exempting them from the need for teacher training. I have no information from which to answer the second part of the Question. The minimum qualification for normal entry to a training college is five O-level passes.

Whilst thanking my right hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask whether he is aware that authority has been given by his Department for people to teach who have only the qualification of two or three O-level G.C.E. passes? Can he give an assurance that the policy of his Department in future will be not to give authority for such people to teach?

We are in a very difficult period when we are changing over from the two-year to the three-year course, and I think that temporarily the teaching profession will understand that we have to get teachers from any good source we can.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the teaching profession will not understand that the right hon. Gentleman should go as low as the hon. Member for Acton (Mr. Holland) has said? Is he aware that the teaching profession was firmly assured in a speech at the Government Dispatch Box that it would be possible to enter upon the three-year period of training without lowering in any way the standards required from those serving in our schools?

I think that this is quite a small exception. There were only 168 students in 1959 admitted with qualifications lower than five O-level passes in the G.C.E., and they had been approved by the Institute of Education.

asked the Minister of Education (1) what provision is made to allow service by teachers serving overseas in Commonwealth countries under exchange or long-term schemes to rank for pension rights when they return;

(2) what provision is made to allow service by teachers serving overseas in colonial countries under exchange or long-term schemes to rank for pension rights when they return.

Under normal exchange arrangements, when the teacher continues in the employ of the home employer, service continues to rank for pension in the ordinary way. For other types of service in Commonwealth countries, arrangements can be made to safeguard the teacher's pension position. As these are somewhat complicated, I am sending detailed information to the hon. Member.

asked the Minister of Education if he will give the number of people employed as teachers in secondary schools and primary schools, respectively, who have received no approved course of teacher training, and the comparable number of such people for 1954 and 1957, respectively.

I would refer the hon. Member to the first part of the reply given this afternoon to the hon. Member for Acton (Mr. Holland). Comparable figures for 1957 are 251,700 teachers, of whom 35,500 had not received teacher training, and for 1954 the comparable figures are 231,000 and 32,800. Figures are not available to show how many of these teachers are employed in primary and how many in secondary schools.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is quite unfair to children who have these unqualified teachers—I am not referring to graduates but to temporary teachers who have the Ordinary level certificate—and that he ought to take a stand against admitting these people with hardly any qualification into schools?

That is the long-term aim, but the situation is difficult while the bulge is going through the schools, and I would have thought that, as the teaching profession now has the three-year training course, which is a very good thing, it might understand the immediate difficulties.

While it is obviously important that teachers should have these qualifications, is it not also a fact that many teachers who have qualifications on paper are not necessarily best qualified to impart knowledge to children? Will my right hon. Friend try to ensure that those who find that they are natural teachers are encouraged to take the necessary paper qualifications?

I think that the teachers are doing very well under great difficulties, and I am always anxious to recruit mature people who find that they have a bent for teaching.

asked the Minister of Education if, in order to improve teaching facilities for science in schools, he will make provision for 100 per cent. grant to be payable to local education authorities employing full-time laboratory technicians in secondary and technical schools.

I am anxious to encourage the proper provision of laboratory technicians, but I do not think a special form of grant would be appropriate. The pay and conditions of service of laboratory assistants are primarily matters for the local authority associations and the hon. Member will be interested to know that the associations are now going into all these matters.

Is the Minister not aware that the present financial arrangements under the block grant make it difficult for authorities to recruit the necessary number of technicians?

I do not think that is so. If local authorities see the need, they can well do it under the general grant arrangements.

asked the Minister of Education if he will give grants in aid to local education authorities who wish to pay the fees of pupils entering for the examinations of the Northern Counties' Technical Examinations Council.

The whole question of the external examinations other than the G.C.E. is at present being reviewed by the Secondary Schools Examinations Council. I must wait for the Council's advice before considering any changes in the Regulations.

The Minister of Education has the reputation for cutting through red tape and being in favour of the secondary modern schools. Does he not consider that on this occasion he could cut right through the red tape surrounding this examination and do a good deal to satisfy people in the North-East about it?

This is a very important question and, before too long, I think that we shall have this report on which a great deal of work is being done, I would advise the hon. Member to wait.

Could the right hon. Gentleman say how long we shall have to wait? He will appreciate that examination policy in technical and secondary modern schools is extremely important and many people would like Government policy to be announced very soon.

I am also anxious for the report, but I have not received a definite date from the Committee.

asked the Minister of Education if he has yet received the report of the Anderson Committee on grants for students; and when he will be in a position to make a statement.

I hope to receive the report of the Anderson Committee in a month or two. When I have considered the Committee's recommendations, I will make a statement.

In thanking my right hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask whether he will do everything possible to expedite publication of the report, bearing in mind that thousands of parents are anxiously waiting for its recommendations and that their long-term plans for their children will be affected by them?

I will do my best.

asked the Minister of Education what steps are being taken by his Department to ensure close co-operation between the staffs of technical schools and colleges and the managers of industry and to promote an increase in the number of apprenticeships and learnerships as the number of school-leavers grows.

Co-operation is steadily improving through representation on governing bodies, college advisory committees, regional advisory councils and youth employment committees. Local education authorities are extending their facilities for providing the technical education parallel to the practical training provided by industry. I am considering how the colleges can work together with industry further to increase the number of such trainees.

asked the Minister of Education on what date he received a letter, dated 29th January, from Newcast Foundries Limited, of Silverdale, Newcastle-under-Lyme, on the subject of apprenticeships and learnerships; what reply he has made; and what action he proposes to take.

My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary received a letter on 1st February, the main purpose of which was to seek the continued deferment of National Service for two former employees of this firm who had completed their apprenticeship. He informed the writer on 4th February that he had asked the Ministry of Labour to reply direct.

Would the Minister or his Parliamentary Secretary consider doing a bit more than that? Is the right hon. Genleman aware that this matter arose out of the Parliamentary Secretary lecturing firms on the need to create more apprenticeships and that small firms like this do not like being lectured in that way when their apprentices are being called up as soon as they have completed their training? Would the right hon. Gentleman, on educational grounds, make representations to his right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour about this subject?

This is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour, and he is now dealing with it.

asked the Minister of Education to what extent the use of radio and television programmes has increased in schools; what assessment has been made of their value either as a partial substitute or as a complement to normal class lessons; and to what extent consultation takes place with the British Broadcasting Corporation and the Independent Television Authority in respect of suitable programmes presented for the assistance of teachers.

I am informed that since regular television programmes to schools started in 1957 the number of sets in schools has risen to about 2,500. In the same period the number of radio sets has remained steady at about 29,000. The usefulness of radio programmes is well established and television broadcasts show promise. It is too soon for a full assessment of the part which television can play in the schools and I am watching these developments with interest. My Department is represented on the advisory bodies of the B.B.C. and Associated Rediffusion.

May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman's Department has made any kind of careful inquiry about the merits of this device in assisting education and whether some dubiety has arisen in recent months about it?

All the time Her Majesty's inspectors are sending us reports and we are carefully looking at and collating that information.

asked the Minister of Education what is the present shortage of physics masters in grammar and other State schools.

The figures given to the hon. Member on the 25th June, 1959, are the latest available, but there is some reason to think that the present position may be slightly better.

May I ask whether anything is being done respecting those who are still called up for National Service? Has any release been made of those who are qualified in physics to enable them to go back to fill some of these many vacancies?

In January last year the deferment arrangements for teachers were extended to cover all physics graduates. As a result of that measure, I hope that about 50 or 60 more graduates will have come forward.

asked the Minister of Education to what extent it is the practice in grammar schools to allow Roman Catholic and Jewish pupils, respectively, not only to withdraw from the normal period of worship and religious instruction but also to attend gatherings appropriate to their religious faith within the school buildings; and what steps are taken to arrange for gatherings of a religious or similar character for any group of pupils whose parents desire this, provided a teacher or an older pupil is prepared to supervise the dissenting gathering.

I have no records of arrangements of this kind which are best made locally. Any facilities which the Education Acts allow should, of course, be available to all denominations alike.

Can I take it from the right hon. Gentleman's answer that it is permissible for grammar schools to arrange gatherings of the kind that I have outlined in my Question?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Minister of Education whether he is yet able to state when he proposes to give effect to the recommendation of the Crowther Committee that there should be two leaving dates in the school year, instead of three.

I recognise that this proposal has obvious attractions, but it is necessary to consult industry and education authorities.

Whilst accepting that consultation is desirable, may I ask whether the Minister agrees that, subject to consultation, this arrangement is very desirable from the educational point of view?

It is certainly desirable from the educational point of view. There are, of course, aspects of it which affect labour.

asked the Minister of Education if he is aware of the urgent necessity of rebuilding the Crampton Street Primary School in the Metropolitan Borough of Southwark; and why he has refused permission to the London County Council to treat the rebuilding of this school, which suffered bomb damage in 1941, as a matter of priority.

I know that the buildings of this school are temporary and will need to be replaced. But the claims of other schools are more urgent and they have had to come first.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the conditions that prevail at that school where the infants' class, the babies of the school, are being educated in a corrugated iron shed which was erected for temporary purposes in 1882?

I am aware that the buildings are temporary and we must replace them as soon as we can.

In view of that, will the right hon. Gentleman now assure me that he will have a look at this matter in conjunction with the London County Council?

When we come to the next programme, we shall look at it again.

Could the Minister tell us the Ministry's definition of "temporary"?

Seventy-eight years.

Not without notice.

asked the Minister of Education when he expects to be able to free teachers from clerical duties in connection with the School Meals Service.

Local education authorities were asked in March last to review their arrangements for providing clerical assistance to schools and to take steps to ensure that this was adequate. Many authorities are increasing the amount of clerical assistance provided. The extent to which teachers undertake clerical work in connection with school meals is arranged between the teachers and the local education authority concerned.

Is the hon. Member aware that the teaching profession would be very grateful if he could stir up local authorities in the provision of clerical aid? Teachers should be free to get on with their proper job of teaching and not be weighed down with clerical duties.

I am aware of those views, and it was with that in mind that local authorities were prompted in March last year to go forward with the provision of clerical aid. I am very glad to say that they are doing very well.

asked the Minister of Education whether he will introduce legislation to implement the recommendations of the Roberts Committee on the Public Library Service.

The Government accept the need for legislation in this field and I hope shortly to begin discussions with the associations of local authorities on my proposals.

Before doing that, would it not be a good idea to provide us with an opportunity to discuss it here in the House? There are many views on both sides of the House, both for and against.

Certainly this is a question which would interest the House very much, but I thought that it would be a good thing to get the views of local authorities first.

Will my right hon. Friend take into account the views expressed to him by the Urban District Councils Association that no good local authority, although not large, that is running a virile library service, built up by its local residents, should be deprived of the right of continuing to do so?

That is one of the questions which we have to discuss with the local authorities. I am sure that my hon. Friend will agree that we have a duty to ensure that the service is adequate to the people in the neighbourhood.

Will the Minister bring into his consultations the Smaller Library Group of the Library Association, which represents practically the whole of the smaller authorities likely to be affected by this legislation?

Yes, Sir.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the Conservative Party has expressed its desire to retain the power, authority and responsibility of smaller local authorities and not to transfer all these responsibilities to county councils? Will he also bear in mind that the library service essentially should be decided by local authorities, and not be subject to national standards?

I will consider what my right hon. Friend has said. I think that he will find that my proposals are more in the sense that he desires than those of the Report.

Does not the Minister think that it would be wrong to make any alteration in the library service until we know whether there will be any change in the structure of local government as a result of the commissions which are at present operating?

That is a very important factor which must be taken into account.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that this problem is highly controversial, not only within this House but between different types of local authority, and that the opposition to many of the majority proposals in the Roberts Report was not confined, as my hon. Friend the Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir P. Agnew) said, only to urban district councils but that many non-county boroughs of very substantial stature are gravely concerned at the possibility of losing their valuable and experienced library services?

I have that point well in mind.

I am very grateful.

asked the Minister of Education on what grounds he refused to accept in full the minor projects programme submitted by the Tynemouth Education Committee; and, in view of the need to bring old schools up to a reasonable standard compared with new schools in order to ensure equality of opportunity to all children, if he will reconsider this refusal.

When the programme was submitted in outline last September it was not clear that one of the schemes proposed could be carried out satisfactorily as a minor project; for two others the cost estimates given to me seemed too high. I am ready to reconsider the matter when I receive detailed plans and firmer cost estimates.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for that somewhat conciliatory reply, may I ask him whether he would bear in mind that a financially good local authority, well conducted and with relatively low rates, would find it very hard to understand why it should be discouraged by my right hon. Friend from providing modern lavatories for its old schools, particularly in view of the fact that it has almost finished its slum clearance programme, and also that there is no incentive for a good local authority because, when it wants to deal with the problem of overcrowding in its grammar schools, it is discouraged by my right hon. Friend?

As a general proposition, I entirely agree with the first part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question, but that does not absolve me from the duty of looking at the estimates of a minor building programme.

asked the Minister of Education, as representing the Minister for Science, what is the average age of the members of the Lord President's Advisory Council for Science; and how many are below the age of 50 years.

The average age of the members of the Advisory Council for Scientific Policy is 55·7 years. Two of the members are under the age of 50.

Will my right hon. Friend ensure that the membership of this Council is kept reasonably balanced between the various ages? And will he take into account the fact that today one can make a very distinguished contribution to science at an age very much younger than that normally regarded as suitable on taking a senior position in politics?

I am sure that my noble Friend will be interested in what my hon. Friend has just said.

asked the Minister of Education as representing the Minister for Science, what action he proposes to take on the findings of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research Report on the machine-tool industry.

Discussion on the recommendations of the Report is proceeding between the D.S.I.R., the Machine Tool Trades Association, the Board of Trade and the Ministry of Education, with a view to co-ordinating action with the industry.

Does the Minister not think the time has come to take account of the D.S.I.R. Report, which I understand from reports in the Press is concerned only with resources in scientific manpower and research and development employed by the machine-tool industry and is not in any way affected by the new committee which has been set up to deal with production?

Account is being taken of it in a number of ways. Perhaps the hon. Member would like my noble Friend to write to him on that.

Has the right hon. Gentleman considered the possibility of setting up a body to inquire into the machine-tool industry, as the Heyworth Committee did into the gas industry or the Reid Committee into the coal industry, an inquiry whose proceedings and evidence would be fully published?

It would be better to see the progress we can make with what is happening now, which I understand is likely to be good.

asked the Minister of Education, as representing the Minister for Science, what progress has been made in the investigations which are being carried out to show how many accidents might have been avoided had a safety belt been worn by front seat car passengers.

It is unlikely that accidents will be avoided by the wearing of a safety belt by front seat car passengers but likely that the resulting injuries will be lessened. The Road Research Laboratory of D.S.I.R. is attempting to obtain an estimate of the safety value of belts and harnesses by examining records of accidents which it has studied on the spot. An interim report is expected in a few weeks' time.

asked the Minister of Education, as repesenting the Minister for Science, what was the amount contributed last year by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research to the Shipbuilding Research Association; and what amount it is proposed to contribute in the coming year.

The annual grant for the year ending 31st March, 1959, was £50,000. For the year ending 31st March, 1960, the grant will be £60,000, provided that £300,000 is raised from industry.

Can the Minister confirm a report that this association, which is really not doing nearly as much as is needed for this industry, has been building up a substantial reserve out of its annual funds? If so, can he say for what purpose?

I shall need notice of that, and I will write to the hon. Member.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether, in order to assist purchasers in retail shops, he will amend the present optional arrangements with regard to the marking of imported bacon so as to make it compulsory in all cases for the name of the country of origin to be indicated.

The present arrangements require that all imported goods must be marked either "Empire" or "Foreign" or, alternatively, with the name of the country of origin. If my hon. Friend's suggestion were adopted, it would mean that all imported goods would have to be marked with the country of origin as the alteration could not be justified for bacon alone. This would cause an excessive amount of disturbance to wholesalers and retailers. It would also require legislation.

Does not my right hon. Friend realise that there is something very wrong with a system of marking which makes it necessary for bacon to be marked when it is in the whole side stored away in a cupboard where nobody can see it and it does not have to be marked when cut up into rashers and put in the shop window? What makes the position even worse is that these rashers can bear the name of a reputable English firm, giving the purchaser the idea that this foreign bacon is made from English pigs. In justification of the home producers' position, this marking should be shown in the shop window.

My hon. Friend is, I think, aware that, at the request of the National Farmers' Union, this matter of the portion which is cut away from the main carcase and is sold as rashers has been referred to the Standing Committee set up under the Merchandise Marks Act, 1926. I understand that the Committee is likely to consider the reference in about two months' time.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what official consideration is being given to the production of dried food; and what action is contemplated.

Her Majesty's Government have encouraged the manufacture of dried foods both by the placing of contracts and by themselves undertaking research and development work. It is my hope that the industry will continue to follow up the promising new processes which have been demonstrated, and are being further improved.

When the right hon. Gentleman talks about promising processes, is there an indication that dried food may take the place of frozen food? Is it within the foreseeable future that we will have feather-like chops, steaks, fruit and vegetables, which it will be a great boon to the housewife to keep in the cupboard and be enabled to prepare a substantial meal in about ten minutes?

I would not go quite as far as the hon. Member in all his prophecies, but there is, I think, a future in this connection. I am certain that useful research is being done on it.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when it is expected that the Committee on Transactions in Seeds will publish its next report.

I understand that the Committee expects to submit its report on plant breeders' rights by the summer. Arrangements will be made to publish the report as soon as possible.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will take steps to accelerate the payment of grants to farmers and contractors who have completed qualifying constructions; and, in particular, if he will hasten payment of the sum of £727 to the small Leicestershire contractor, outstanding since August, 1959, details of which have been given to him.

The Ministry's divisional offices seek to deal promptly with the inspection and payment of claims for grant when approved work has been completed. The case referred to, about which I have written to my hon. Friend, does not support the suggestion that there was unreasonable delay on the part of the office concerned.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, in view of the urgent agricultural need for water in the area and of the fact that the grant he has offered is insufficient, if he will now increase his offer to the East Devon Water Board for a proposed water-mains extension scheme from Branscombe Cross to Colyton Hill, Devonshire.

I regret to have to inform my hon. Friend that the grant already offered is the maximum which can be justified by the agricultural benefits of the scheme.

Is my hon. Friend aware that that reply will be received with dismay, not only by those farming in the area, but also by the East Devon Water Board? In view of the urgent need of piped water for agricultural purposes in the area, will he not look at the matter again?

I am aware of my hon. Friend's concern and I have given the matter most careful consideration. I assure him that we are just as anxious as he is to see that the greatest possible help is given in these cases. In this case, the grant offered was a considerable sum. I realise that the total cost was high, but it must be for the board itself, in the light of the grant we were able to offer, to decide whether it is willing to provide these facilities.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he is aware of the importance of fish-meal revenue to the British fishing industry, which is now faced with serious losses through greatly increased imports of fishmeal from Peru; and if he will make representations to the Peruvians to curtail their exports to Great Britain and to expand their markets in other countries.

It is perfectly correct that the income derived from the fishmeal trade is an important element in the economy of the fishing industry, and that increased imports of meal from Peru have had a depressing effect on the trade recently. The question whether representations should be made to the Peruvian Government is, of course, a matter for my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade and I will pass on to him my hon. Friend's suggestion.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the exports of fishmeal from Peru have risen from 14,000 tons in 1954 to over 300,000 tons in 1958 and that this is threatening the British fishery industry? Will he and his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade support the efforts that the British industry is making to hold meetings in London between the British producers and the Peruvian exporters?

I know of nothing to stop the industries in both countries from getting together, but it should be remembered that the Restrictive Trade Practices Act might have some bearing on this matter.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that there is strong suspicion in the trade in this country that the Peruvian fish-meal is being dumped here at much below the cost of production? Will he take this into account when discussing the matter with the President of the Board of Trade?

Most certainly. I am, however, informed that there is no evidence of dumping. If the hon. Member can give me any evidence, I will see that it is passed to my right hon. Friend.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that while the President of the Board of Trade may be responsible for negotiations with regard to importation of fish meal, he is himself the Minister responsible for the British fishing industry and that any loss in connection with this product, which brings the industry an income of about £3½ million a year, is extremely important at the present time in view of the difficulties facing the fishing industry?

Yes. I have, however, suggested that if there was any evidence of dumping I would see that it was brought to the attention of my right hon. Friend. Of course, I am aware of my responsibilities to the fishing industry. If any practical suggestions are put forward by the hon. Member, I will certainly consider them.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what instructions are given to the inspectors of his Department on the carrying out of their duties when it is decided that poultry must be destroyed because of fowl pest.

My veterinary staff have comprehensive standing instructions and have great experience in dealing with outbreaks of fowl pest.

Will the Minister confirm that there is no question of one of his inspectors simply taking high-handed action on his own, but that all these cases, which obviously cause great concern to those affected, are carefully considered by his veterinary staff before action is taken?

Yes, I can confirm that. All my inspectors have a comprehensive list of standing instructions, and, of course, they have to be convinced that the disease is in existence before action is decided upon.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make available more money for research into fowl pest.

Fundamental research into viruses generally is in progress in this country and abroad, and many of the results are of wide application. Since the re-appearance of the disease in 1947, the Veterinary Laboratory at Weybridge has developed or studied live and inactivated vaccines and has kept in close touch with the research being undertaken in other countries. The Government's policy is to stamp out the disease by slaughter, and my veterinary and laboratory staff from their experience have built up an extensive knowledge of ways in which infection spreads and methods of control. This operational research continues. It is not possible to assess the cost of this work separately from other similar activities at the laboratory and elsewhere but this work is not suffering for want of money.

Would the Minister agree that this is not only a serious but a costly disease and that merely to slaughter and pay compensation is just taking the line of least resistance? Surely we have to do more to find out the cause of this disease. Further, is the Minister aware that the N.F.U. in Norfolk claims to have evidence that this virus is imported into this country in tinned poultry supplied to the U.S.A. personnel at the various bases in this country? Will he look into this and, if necessary, in consultation with the Ministry concerned, prohibit imports of this nature into this country?

I understand the hon. Gentleman's genuine concern at this question of fowl pest. I can assure him that if he has any evidence of the allegation which he gave in the latter part of his supplementary question I will certainly look at it. I can assure him that we are not just taking the line of least resistance. Our policy, we believe, is right. We are certainly considering all the scientific discoveries and data available to us and when we are certain that new methods and techniques should be pursued we shall do so.

Does not the Minister's Answer today, like his answer to me last week, show that he and his Ministry are hopelessly confused between two different points? One is the slaughter policy, with which most people agree, and the other is the research into the prevention and cure of the disease, which is quite a different matter.

I am not muddled; I do not know if the hon. Gentleman is?

No, I am not at all.

The hon. Gentleman is quite right in saying that there are two very separate issues. From all the information that we have at the moment, our slaughter policy is correct. On the other hand, I am saying that we should do as much as we can in research and other inquiries of all kinds to ascertain whether any alternative methods, because of new techniques, would be better than the present policy that we are carrying out.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he is aware of widespread concern about the use of poisonous sprays on the land; whether it was by his authority that two officials of his Department took part in a Press conference arranged by a commercial firm to promote the use of its pesticides; and whether he will make a statement of Government policy on the use of poisonous sprays.

Certainly, this subject has been receiving a good deal of attention. The purpose of the Press conference referred to, which my officials were authorised to attend, was not to promote the use of the organisers' products but to outline methods of pesticide safety—an object which I shall take every opportunity to encourage. The policy of the Government is to ensure that risks from toxic chemicals are reduced to a minimum, while recognising their great value and importance to modern agriculture.

In view of the great importance of these poisonous sprays and the fact that one official stated that as a consequence of experiments he sought to allay fears about them, would it not be much better to give the explanations in this House? Cannot the right hon. Gentleman now give some further information on this business of poisonous sprays, or is there still a long way to go before he knows the answer?

I have given a great deal of information to the House, as I think the hon. Member will recognise. In conjunction with the industry, I have also taken action on dealing with arsenite sprays. As I think the hon. Member knows, we have strengthened the Committee on Poisonous Substances by the inclusion of five outside scientists, and a special inquiry is also being set up to report to my noble Friend the Lord Privy Seal and Minister for Science, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and myself on this subject. I assure the hon. Member that a great deal of thought and trouble has been taken on this matter and that I shall keep the House informed.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if his attention has been drawn to the findings of his Weybridge laboratories that there is now a serious outbreak of hepatitis in Lincolnshire, Leicestershire and the Soke of Peterborough; and if, in view of its similarity to the American fox encephalitis, he is satisfied with the quarantine arrangements for all animals at the United States Air Force bases.

The greater part of the investigations into disease in foxes has been carried out by the Animal Health Trust, but one fox was the subject of a post-mortem examination at the Weybridge Laboratory. The cause of death appeared to be related to canine hepatitis, which I understand is not uncommon in this country.

There are no separate quarantine facilities for animals at United States Air Force bases in this country. Animals brought in by United States Air Force personnel are subject to exactly the same quarantine restrictions as any other animals entering the country.

While none of us doubts the efficiency of my hon. Friend's arrangements at the regular American Air Force bases, would he look most carefully at the arrangements in the temporary camps which the Americans have for setting up rocket sites in the east Midlands to see whether there are proper facilities there?

I think that our arrangements are as watertight as they can be. If my hon. Friend has any evidence which he would like to put before me, I should naturally be happy to look into it. As far as I am aware, we do keep a very close watch on these points.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if, in view of the growing concern about the spread of hepatitis in dogs and foxes, he will make it a notifiable disease as in the case of ducks.

It would obviously not be practicable to make a disease among wild animals notifiable. As far as dogs are concerned, with the exception of rabies, my right hon. Friend has no responsibilities.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the distressing thing about this disease is that a dog can have it, be cured, and still be a carrier of it?

Yes, Sir. I realise this could happen. It is a worrying point, but I think there is little that we can do as a Ministry in relation to it.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in what circumstances the virus of an African type of foot-and-mouth disease escaped from the Pirbright Research Station; and whether he will make a statement.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what was the source of the outbreak of an African type of foot-and-mouth disease on a farm in the neighbourhood of the Pirbright Foot-and-Mouth Research Station; and what action he is taking to restore the confidence of farmers in that part of Surrey in the effectiveness of the sanitary precautions in the Research Station.

An investigation into the escape of an African type of foot-and-mouth disease virus from the Research Institute at Pirbright is now being made. An announcement will be made when it is completed. The outbreak that occurred at Worplesdon on 18th January has been stamped out and the infected area restrictions that have been in force in that part of Surrey were withdrawn at midnight on 8th February.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a good deal of concern among the farming community in that part of Surrey and there is a suspicion that the outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease that have occurred from time to time over the years in the neighbourhood of Pirbright have in fact arisen from the Research Station? While there is a very efficient system of sanitary precautions in the research station, will he consider taking steps to establish more liaison between the Agricultural Research Council and the Farmers' Union in the county to let them know what is happening in the Research Station and generally to restore confidence?

I will certainly consider what my hon. Friend says, but there is no evidence at all that the two previous outbreaks at Worplesdon in 1958 and 1946 were attributable to the escape of virus from the Institute. Subject to that, I shall look at what my hon. Friend has said and I shall make available to the House the result of the inquiry which is being held at the moment.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he is aware that the number of calf vaccinations for contagious abortion has declined by about 50,000 over the last three years; and whether, in order to wipe out this disease, he will introduce a scheme on the lines of the successful tuberculosis eradication scheme.

Total issues of Strain 19 vaccine from my Central Veterinary Laboratory to veterinary surgeons suggest that an increasing number of calves and heifers are being treated against contagious abortion. I have not yet decided whether to make any alteration in the existing arrangements.

Can the Minister say when he is likely to come to a decision, because there is a very strong feeling in the agricultural community that this terrible disease could be cured if there were a strong enough drive on the part of the Ministry?

Yes, Sir. I cannot give any definite time, but I am considering the matter. The hon. Gentleman will be interested to know that the use of this vaccine has shown a steady increase over the years. If he would like me to do so, I should very much like to send him the figures.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that sales of gramophone records per 1,000 heads of population amount to £498 in New Zealand. £422 in the United States of America and £205 in the United Kingdom, whereas domestic rates of indirect taxation on gramophone records are much higher in the United Kingdom than in the other countries named; and, having regard to the importance of gramophone records for cultural, educational and recreational purposes, and the low level of United Kingdom sales figures, compared with the other countries named, whether he will forthwith substantially reduce the impost on gramophone records.

My right hon. Friend is not prepared to anticipate his Budget decisions.

Is my hon. Friend aware that views have been expressed in all parts of the House as to the undesirability of placing this swingeing tax on culture, and as it has never been the policy of any Government in this country to place a Purchase Tax on books, for example, why should a tax of 50 per cent. be continued on gramophone records?

I am sure my right hon. Friend will bear in mind what my hon. Friend has said. However, I think it fair to point out that it is hardly true to say that this tax is imposed solely in respect of culture. There are other gramophone records of the "pop" character which also sell in this country, as I am sure my hon. Friend is aware.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer why busts used for the display of wearing apparel are free from Purchase Tax, while busts produced in quantity for general sale are subject to Purchase Tax at 25 per cent., whereas Note 1 of Group 25 in Customs and Excise Notice No. 78 states that, when such items are comprised in any other article, such as bottle openers, bottle stoppers or corkscrews, the fact that they may be in the form of, or consist substantially of, a figure of bust, does not involve liability under Group 25.

Because busts used for the display of wearing apparel are exclusively commercial, not domestic, articles.

What is the special interest my right hon. Friend has in the dimension of busts which is brought out in this Question? Why is there need for the Treasury to discriminate between various busts? [An HON. MEMBER: "Don't you."] Oh, yes. I do. Will my hon. Friend tell the House whether considerations of uplift apply in this context?

I was, of course, referring to fabricated busts. If my hon. Friend will look again at his Question, I think he will see that the difficulty which he finds is caused by the fact that he has not appreciated the distinction between a bust and an ornamental corkscrew.

Will my hon. Friend explain to the House why there should be a difference in Purchase Tax arrangements between a prefabricated and a fabricated bust, to which he has just referred?

I am sorry if I said "prefabricated". I meant to say "fabricated".

My hon. Friend has got it the wrong way round.

I was trying to make a distinction between fabricated busts and natural busts, to which I thought my hon. Friend was referring.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he proposes to dispose of the anomaly whereby toilet requisites for animals, such as forceps, tweezers and brushes, are charged to Purchase Tax at half the rate at which similar equipment for human use is charged.

My hon. Friend persists in his misunderstanding. Animal toilet requisites are taxed at the same rate as similar articles for human use.

Is it not a fact that the requisites referred to in this Question, when used for animal purposes, are taxed at only one half the rate at which they are taxed when used for human purposes? Before answering this Question, did my hon. Friend fail to observe that a brush used for brushing the coat of a white rabbit attracts Purchase Tax at only one half of the rate at which his hair brush is charged?

I am sorry to have to inform my hon. Friend that once again he has misunderstood the position. The fact is that, so far as the articles to which he refers in his Question—forceps, tweezers, brushes and similar articles—are taxable, there is not and there has never been any difference in the rate of tax according to whether they are for human or for animal use.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what reply he has sent to the request from the Arts Council for an increased grant for the purpose of sending opera tours into the provinces.

It is for the Council to decide how to spend the total amount of its grant. As regards the size of next year's grant, I must ask the hon. Gentleman to await the publication of the 1960–61 Estimates.

Has the Minister received such a request to advance opera in the provinces, and is he giving it sympathetic consideration?

As regards the total of the grant, we have now settled this. I cannot, naturally, reveal correspondence, but I can assure the hon. Gentleman that it is now settled. It is, of course, Government policy to leave the Arts Council an entirely free hand in the distribution of its grant.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has now reached a decision on the question of building a national theatre.

No, Sir. My right hon. Friend has recently received from the Arts Council the result of the further study of this subject which he asked it to undertake; and we shall need to consider its conclusions carefully.

Is the Minister aware that the London County Council this week passed a unanimous resolution in favour of the immediate establishment of a national theatre in London? Will he do something about it, in view of the fact that over a year ago, Lord Esher said that everything was ready for the building of a national theatre, including the plans, but awaiting the confirmation and agreement of the Government?

I am well aware of those facts and also of the hon. Gentleman's concern with the subject. It is a difficult and controversial matter, and I cannot say more this afternoon.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware of the continual instances of shortage of funds by art galleries, orchestras, opera, ballet, and provincial theatres; and whether he will now recommend the appointment and seek the views of a Royal Commission on the needs of the arts, with a view to providing adequately for their maintenance on a long-term plan.

No, Sir. Although the artistic institutions, like many others, would be glad to have more money, I cannot accept that they are continually short of funds; and I do not consider that a Royal Commission would be the appropriate machinery for reviewing so wide and disparate a field.

But is the Financial Secretary really satisfied to have the Treasury continually approached with a begging bowl for the purchase of new pictures, for the saving of a theatre, for the saving of the Royal Opera House or for Sadler's Wells? Why will he not put the arts on a really sound foundation with a proper grant and a three or five year plan?

I think this subject is to be discussed on a Private Members' Motion in two or three weeks. I only say that the recent special grant for the purchase of the Rembrandt portrait shows that we are prepared to make generous contributions to the begging bowl when a really good case can be made out.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he expects to begin discussions about the establishment of an advanced business school at a British university.

It is for the universities themselves to decide what courses they will offer. I understand, however, that a group of hon. Members and industrialists under the chairmanship of my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary of the Ministry of Housing and Local Government is discussing with certain universities the prospects for further development of post-graduate studies in business administration. The University Grants Committee is aware of these discussions.

Will my hon. Friend remember that there is considerable public interest in this project and ensure that he presses ahead with it?

I am very well aware of that. Actually, the discussions to which I referred, I think, are concerned not specifically with the establishment of an advanced business school as such but with the development of studies in business administration. I certainly agree that this is a highly important subject.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many building societies have been granted trustee status; and within what range of interest charges to borrowers these societies at present operate.

Two hundred societies. The Registrar of Building Societies informs me that the current figures for the range of interest rates are not available, but the rates charged at the time of the individual applications for trustee status varied from 3 per cent. to 7¾ per cent. Those societies which have entered into an agreement under the House Purchase and Housing Act, 1959, are at present allowed to charge not more than 5½ per cent. on advances which may be financed from the Exchequer.

Does the Economic Secretary not think that there is an astonishing variation in interest rates charged by building societies which have been given trustee status? Will he, therefore, continue to exercise a very watchful eye on the operations of those building societies with trustee status which are in the circumstances charging an exorbitant rate of interest, since so many borrowers from building societies consider that they are having a very tough deal?

I am sure that the Registrar will take note of what the hon. Gentleman has said. But, of course, the rates which the societies have to offer must vary from society to society and, also, societies vary their lending rates according to the type of property which is offered as security. I think it is reasonable that they should do so.

asked the Prime Minister how the responsibility for formulating policy in regard to space satellites is allocated between Departments.

I have been asked to reply.

General supervision of Government policy on space research is exercised by my noble Friend, the Lord Privy Seal and the Minister for Science, in consultation with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Aviation and other Ministers concerned.

In view of the very urgent need for this country to get ahead with its own independent space programme, is not there a very strong case now for the policy-making and the carrying out of the policies to be centralised in one Department, as there is strong evidence of delay and overlapping between the Departments concerned?

A Committee has been set up within the Government to co-ordinate and bring together the policies of space research. This is under the chairmanship of Sir Edward Bullard, F.R.S., and consists of eminent scientists and representatives of the Departments concerned. I do not think that the matter will fall down in the way that the hon. Gentleman fears.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the provisions of Part II of the Restrictive Trade Practices Act, 1956, are such as to encourage, rather than to diminish, the tendency to form monopolies; and if he will take this consideration into account in the study he is making of this part of the Act.

The extent to which the provisions of Part II of the Restrictive Trade Practices Act may encourage the formation of monopolies is a subject upon which opinions appear to differ. I can, however, assure the House that the effect of resale price maintenance on the structure of industry and trade will not be neglected in any studies which are made.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the obvious way of circumventing the provisions about collective resale price maintenance is to form an inter-connected body corporate under the further provisions of Part II of the Act? Will he inquire to what extent this is responsible for various combinations which are being formed in industry, including take-over bids?

I do not think that that is quite the way things occur, but I will certainly look into the point.

As the extent to which monopolies are being increased in this way is an important matter of opinion, would it not be useful to have the opinion of the Monopolies Commission about it? Will the right hon. Gentleman consider referring this matter to the Monopolies Commission?

As I think the House is aware, I am at the moment studying the operation of this part of the Act. I think that the best thing for us to do at the moment is to continue with that study.

asked the President of the Board of Trade what number of new jobs he expects to secure for Scotland in 1960; and if he will make a statement.

Projects recently completed or now under construction in Scotland should provide approximately 6,900 new jobs. In addition, projects approved but not yet started are estimated to provide a further 8,000 jobs. These figures do not include B.M.C.'s project at Bathgate, which will eventually provide employment for 5,600 people. Rootes Ltd. also hope to expand in Scotland. The Board of Trade will continue to try to persuade industrialists to set up or expand in areas of high unemployment in Scotland and elsewhere.

Whilst we welcome the efforts that the right hon. Gentleman is making to reduce unemployment in Scotland, does he realise that, despite those efforts, the figure has now risen to approximately 100,000? Is he also aware that before his schemes begin to employ any of these people two years at least will pass?—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] That is the period given by some of our expert economists in Scotland, in particular Professor Cairn-cross. Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us exactly what he proposes to do to fill in the gap of unemployment which will exist for the next two years?