asked the Minister of Labour how many people from Scotland have been placed in employment in England, through the medium of employment exchanges, during the year 1959.

The Answer is 1,826.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that this unfortunate trend is causing grave disquiet in Scotland? Although he and his right hon. Friends may not wish to apply the principle of physical compulsion with a view to bringing industry to the North, does not he realise that the Scottish people are being subjected to a form of economic compulsion? Will he take the appropriate steps to reverse this regrettable trend?

The policy of the Government is to encourage industry to go to Scotland but, as the House knows, we must also be prepared to offer opportunities elsewhere to those in Scotland who wish to take advantage of them. In fact, the figure I gave is only 1·1 per cent. of the total placings by our offices in Scotland.

asked the Minister of Labour the total number of unemployed in Scotland at the end of 1959; to what extent there was a national increase; and what was Scotland's share.

At 7th December, 1959, there were 92,311 persons registered as unemployed in Scotland, a decrease of 3,229 compared with December, 1958. This decrease represented 2·9 per cent. of the total decrease of 110,844 in Great Britain during the same period.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that, according to these figures, Scotland, which has 10 per cent. of the country's population, has 20 per cent. of the unemployed population? Will he consult his right hon. Friends in order to do more than try to take every step possible to provide employment prospects for the people who live north of the Cheviot Hills?

I assure the hon. Gentleman that my right hon. Friends the President of the Board of Trade and the Secretary of State for Scotland are doing their utmost to encourage industry to go there.

asked the Minister of Labour if he is aware of the further dismissals of workers during the last four weeks from engineering works in the City of Aberdeen, thereby increasing the number of unemployed persons in that City; if he will state the number, ages, sex and previous employment of the persons now unemployed in the City of Aberdeen, and the numbers, ages, sex and previous employment of persons obliged to leave Aberdeen during the last four weeks in order to seek work in England and in the South of Scotland; and what efforts he is making to stem this drift south.

I am aware that 29 men were discharged as redundant from engineering works in Aberdeen during the four weeks ended 15th February, and that 16 of these men are still unemployed. The answer to the second part of the Question consists of a table, which I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I regret that information asked for in the third part of the Question is not readily available, but 97 men from Aberdeen were placed in employment in districts south of Aberdeen in the five weeks ended 10th February. The area is included in the list of development districts announced by my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade on 9th February.

Does the Minister realise that the efforts which have so far been undertaken have not resulted in stopping workers from Aberdeen drifting south? Will he consult his colleagues in the Cabinet with a view to devising more effective methods of attracting industry to Aberdeen and stopping the drift of workers to the south?

asked the Minister of Labour what progress his officers have made in finding suitable employment for disabled miners made redundant as a result of pit closures in the Twechar, Croy and Kirkintilloch areas of Dunbartonshire.

Since my hon. Friend replied to the hon. Member's previous Question on the subject on 26th January, one of these disabled miners has been placed in employment. Efforts to find suitable work for the others are continuing.

As there is a heavy incidence of unemployment in Scotland,

Will the Minister pay particular attention to the problems of the shipbuilding industry and especially those of Messrs. Hall Russell and Company, of Aberdeen, which may well have to discharge quite a number of men in the near future if it is unable to win a contract from the Nigerian Government? Would my right hon. Friend be good enough to look into the problems of this company to see whether he can help in any way?

We shall certainly do that.

There is a special difficulty about these 14 disabled miners. Quite naturally, they want to find jobs again with the National Coal Board and it is difficult to find suitable light jobs, because they are already taken at the other pits by disabled men, but we will continue our efforts.

asked the Minister of Labour what further action has been taken to cover by regulations works of engineering construction since 11th March, 1959, following the death of four men on the partly-built high-level bridge at Barton; and whether he has noted the recommendation to this effect of the jury at the recent inquest on two men who were also killed.

asked the Minister of Labour if, following the fatal accidents at Barton Bridge and elsewhere and the recommendations of the juries concerned, he will accelerate the introduction of safety regulations for constructional and civil engineering.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will now make a statement about the report of the Factory Inspectorate upon the recent accident on the new Barton Bridge, and upon the recommendation of the jury at the inquest on the two men who were killed.

asked the Minister of Labour if he is now in a position to make a further statement regarding the accident at Barton Bridge, Eccles; and what steps Her Majesty's Government intends to take, following the recommendations of the jury at the inquest upon the victims, to accelerate the introduction of safety regulations for engineering works of construction.

The recommendations of the jury at the inquest on the Barton Bridge accident were, first, that the main contractor should appoint a fully qualified co-ordination officer, and secondly that legislation should be introduced to ensure the safety of all concerned with this type of work. On the first I am glad to say that the main contractor has appointed a full-time professional consultant engineer and a full-time safety officer on the site. On the second recommendation, there have been discussions with interested organisations in recent months, and I am now taking action on the following lines. I propose to extend the definition of "work of engineering construction" in the Factories Acts to include virtually all civil and constructional engineering work, and I hope to make regulations before Easter. A preliminary draft of special regulations to cover lifting operations on all types of construction work was issued on 17th February. Regulations dealing with general safety provisions on construction work are being drafted and will be sent out shortly. A statutory draft of regulations covering diving operations was published earlier this week.

Is the Minister aware that the draft regulations were originally formulated in 1945 and were revised and brought forward again in 1951? Is he further aware that when in March 1 raised a similar Question, after the first accident at the installation, I was told that the regulations would be brought in piecemeal, some of them last year, but that none of them was brought forward? Will the right hon. Gentleman make use of Section 68 of the parent Act, the 1937 Act, and make a full examination of what occurred on this and the previous occasion?

I am aware of the history of action in connection with these matters. There are difficulties, because the Minister is obliged to carry out a procedure to try to obtain agreement about the regulations which are to be issued. A new approach is now being made in that I have decided to widen the definition, as I have described in this Answer, and then to make regulations accordingly to deal with the problem. I think that the House will agree that the coroner carried out a thorough inquest into the recent accident. The inquest took a considerable time and many witnesses were called. I do not believe that further information can now be obtained by having an inquiry under Section 68.

As the constructional engineering union has a death rate from accidents higher than that of any other union, does the Minister's Answer mean that specific codes covering individual operations in construction work will be issued and published before Easter?

Yes. We are approaching it by having a number of groups of regulations of this kind. I have specified those for diving operations, which were published earlier this week, and those for lifting operations which were published on 17th February. That is the approach which we are adopting.

Are these regulations to be enforced by the Factory Inspectorate? If so, is my right hon. Friend satisfied that he will have adequate manpower fully qualified to deal with this work, as in the past there has been a shortage of factory inspectors in this area? Will he consider asking his right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport when making a grant to a local authority which undertakes civil engineering contracts on his behalf to make it a condition that the authority should appoint safety officers, such as has now been done at Barton Bridge?

Responsibility for arrangements for a safety officer rests on the employer and not on the local authority, but I will discuss with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport the point which has been made. Responsibility for inspection under the regulations will, of course, rest with the Factory Inspectorate. Since the Factories Act, 1959, was passed, there has been an increase in the number of inspectors, but there is a later Question about qualifications in connection with work of this kind.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the revelations of the inquest and the inquiry show grave inefficiency? Does he agree that labour relations at this site were very bad and that it is imperative that sub-contractors should be efficient? Will he consult his right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport with a view to ensuring the efficiency of sub-contractors in future?

The coroner gave a very full summing-up at the inquest and the jury reached its verdict and made two recommendations. I prefer not to comment any further on those points. On the question about efficiency, I think that it is satisfactory that both a full-time consultant engineer and a full-time safety officer have now been appointed on this site.

I assume that I am right in saying that the regulations which the Minister is to produce are not debatable in the House. Will the right hon. Gentleman, therefore, be good enough to publish the report of the factory inspector on the Barton Bridge accident so that we may have an opportunity to consider the regulations along with the inspector's report?

I gave careful consideration to the possibility of publishing the inspector's report, but the right hon. Gentleman will recall, from his own period in office, that it has been the custom that individual reports by factory inspectors on individual accidents should remain confidential to the Minister. I have come to the conclusion that the best way of handling these reports is not to publish an individual report but to leave it to the Chief Factory Inspector, if he wishes, to comment on any particular aspects in his Annual Report. Perhaps I can discuss the question of debating the regulations with my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will appoint to the Factory Inspectorate inspectors who have professional qualifications in building construction or in civil engineering; to what extent such inspectors are now available in the divisions or districts; and whether he is aware that, in the recent inquest on the fatal and non-fatal accidents at Barton Bridge, the jury recommended that in all such projects the main contractors should appoint a fully-qualified technical or professional co-ordinating officer.

Inspectors with these qualifications are already in post. At present eleven inspectors have professional qualifications or equivalent academic qualifications in building or civil engineering. Seven of them are stationed in divisions or districts; the remainder are at headquarters but are available to help divisional or district staff when necessary.

Does the Minister remember that in answer to a similar Question, on 11th March last year, his predecessor told me that at that time there were no inspectors who were fully qualified either technically or professionally? Is it correct that since then only one inspector who is fully qualified, technically or professionally, has been appointed? Is the Minister aware that of the many thousands of inspections which are made each year, the great majority are made by inspectors who have no qualification whatsoever? Is it not time that this came to an end and that we stopped this façade and pretence of having properly qualified men, when they are not so qualified?

I could not accept the statement that the great majority of these inspections are carried out by men with no qualifications. In the short time I have been at the Ministry of Labour I have found that industry, trade unions and others have the greatest respect and admiration for the work of the Factory Inspectorate.

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell the House what is the establishment of inspectors with this qualification and whether the numbers he has quoted are up to establishment? Is he satisfied that the establishment is sufficient, bearing in mind the representations which he has had from the T.U.C. and other bodies over a long period to appoint more inspectors with technical and professional qualifications?

The establishment at this moment is 448 or 450. It is not necessary for us to keep to a rigid number in each separate qualification or technical accomplishment. We have freedom to move as required. What I will do is to keep under consideration the number of inspectors with this qualification as these new regulations are published and come into operation.

On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Labour the number of shipyard workers employed in Lowestoft in January, 1956, and January, 1960, respectively.

I regret that information for January is not available. Shipbuilding and ship-repairing firms rendering, employment returns from Lowestoft had 1,680 workpeople in November, 1955, and 1,440 in November, 1959.

Will my right hon. Friend draw these figures to the attention of the Civil Lord of the Admiralty and, in view of the Navy Estimates, try to obtain more employment for shipbuilding at Lowestoft? Will he also draw the figures to the attention of the President of the Board of Trade and point out to him that percentages are not the only criteria to go on when deciding on B.O.T.A.C. areas? Will he also take into consideration depopulation, which is causing some trouble for the whole of the East Suffolk region?

Fortunately, my hon. Friend the Civil Lord is present on the Treasury Bench and has heard what my hon. Friend has said. There has been a decline in the number of workers employed in this industry, but the figures of unemployment are not so high, because many of the men have obtained employment in other industries in other areas.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will make a statement on the prospects for the provision of extra apprenticeships and other training facilities in 1961 and the succeeding years to provide adequate opportunities for the large numbers of extra school-leavers.

I am hopeful that, given confidence in an expanding economy, industry will increase the entry into apprenticeships and other forms of training so as to provide for its increased requirements of skilled manpower.

Does the Minister agree that the number of school leavers next year will be about 22 per cent. higher than for this year, that in 1962 it will be 32 per cent. higher, and that in 1963 it will be 17 per cent. higher? Will not the unemployment situation created by this extra number of young people be aggravated by the ending of National Service during that period? Does the Minister think that the voluntary effort of private industry will measure up to the needs of the situation? Does he agree that it is up to the Government to produce plans to bridge the gap?

Responsibility for training in industry has been accepted as resting with industry. Industry has set up the Industrial Training Council with the object of encouraging industry to increase the numbers who are being trained. Details show that at the moment the figures are about keeping pace with the increase in the school-leaving population. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that there will be a greater problem in 1961 than in 1960. Everything possible must be done to encourage industry to provide for it.

asked the Minister of Labour how many school leavers in 1959 became apprentices or learners; what percentage this represents; and how these figures compare with those for 1958.

The provisional total for boys and girls is 119,332, compared with 110,564 in 1958. Both figures are roughly 21 per cent. of the number of school leavers entering employment.

Is it not rather disappointing that there was not a better improvement last year than that, particularly as 1958 was a poor year compared with 1957? In 1958 the number of apprentices went down. Does not that indicate the critical situation that we shall face next year and in the following two years when there will be a drastic rise in the number of school leavers?

On the other hand, the early part of last year was more difficult economically than 1957, and with an expanding economy I hope that we shall be able to increase the numbers.

Has the Industrial Training Council yet been able to arrive at an estimate of the numbers which will be appropriate both to industry's needs and the number of young people leaving school?

The Industrial Training Council sent out circulars in an endeavour to make a firm assessment of the numbers involved, but it has not been entirely successful in reaching a conclusion.

asked the Minister of Labour the various classifications of the insured industrial population in the northern region in 1951, and for each year to date.

As the tables required are lengthy, I will, if may, send them to the hon. Member.

Will the right hon. Gentleman indicate what the trends are? For instance, can he say whether there are more people leaving the North-East in search of jobs? If there are more people leaving the North-East in search of jobs, will he bring strong pressure to bear upon his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade to bring industries to the North-East, thereby stopping the drift of the population away from the area?

If the hon. Gentleman will look at the voluminous, lengthy and weighty tables he will find all the information he requires. In answer to his general question, the growth in the insured employee population in the northern region was 5 per cent., and for Great Britain as a whole it was 5·1 per cent., so they are roughly comparable.

asked the Minister of Labour if, following the industrial accident, details of which have been sent to him by the hon. Member for Salford, East, he will take administrative action under the Factories Acts to ensure that cans containing paint indicate the ingredients, so as to avoid injury to the eyes or other parts of the body and to assist those giving medical treatment.

I am making inquiries about the case sent to me by the hon. Member last week and I will write to him when I have given further consideration to his suggestion.

While thanking the Minister for that reply, may I ask him if he is aware that the National Society of Painters and Decorators is very concerned about the dangers arising from the growing number of new and harmful ingredients?

Yes, I am aware of the representations which the Society has made.

asked the Minister of Labour how many persons were registered as unemployed at the Brixton Employment Exchange in each of the last three months.

There were 2,179 at 7th December, 1959, 2,474 at 11th January, 1960, and 2,378 at 15th February, 1960.

I pay tribute to the valiant efforts of the right hon. Gentleman's local officials in trying to find work for as many people as possible in difficult local circumstances. Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that if a provincial town had these large figures of unemployed it would be regarded as almost a distressed area? Will he ensure that the significance of these figures is not buried in the total figures for London and the southeastern region, which tends to obscure the situation?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is pleased that the figure is nearly 100 fewer than last month and nearly 1,000 fewer than a year ago and that the percentage is 1·1 compared with a national percentage of 2·1. Many provincial towns would be delighted if they had the same percentage.

asked the Minister of Labour what Remploy Limited proposes to do about improving its factory buildings at Redruth, Cornwall.

I understand that there are no definite plans at present for improving this factory.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that this factory is now a hotch-potch collection of wartime huts and that a new building is needed? If it is necessary for the President of the Board of Trade to give some aid under the Local Employment Bill, will the right hon. Gentleman see him about it?

I have seen the correspondence which the hon. Gentleman had with my predecessor, and I know the difficulties about this factory. Remploy Limited also appreciates the difficulties, but there are other factories to which the firm must first give attention.

asked the Minister of Labour if he is aware that it is becoming increasingly difficult for school leavers in Jarrow and Hebburn to obtain employment as craft apprentices; and what steps he proposes to take to remedy this situation.

Yes, Sir. The steady expansion of our economy offers the best prospects of industry being able to make more apprenticeships available.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that unemployment is growing in Jarrow at a time when the steady expansion of the economy to which he refers is taking place? Since it is impossible for private enterprise to offer facilities to the boys and girls leaving school who have attained a good standard of education, does he not think that Her Majesty's Government should consider setting up State factories, thus providing them with the opportunity to which they are certainly entitled?

I think that the hon. Gentleman knows that the problems of providing apprenticeships in this area are largely connected with the difficult period through which the shipbuilding and ship-repairing industry is passing. Also, the building industry in the area is working at a lower level at the moment and is not taking the customary number of apprentices. Other industries have not been able to make up the deficit. As the hon. Gentleman knows, it is a development district and one still hopes to encourage industry to go there.

Does that mean that the right hon. Gentleman thinks that the present phase through which shipbuilding is passing is only temporary and that there will be a substantial improvement which will hold out hope for the boys and girls, the boys in particular, obtaining jobs in that industry?

I think that the hon. Gentleman knows my views. We hope that shipbuilding and ship repairing will emerge from their present recession.

asked the Minister of Labour how many boys and girls left school at Christmas in Jarrow and Hebburn; and how many of them are still without employment.

There were 171 boys and 168 girls who left school at Christmas in Jarrow and Hebburn. Of these, 30 boys and 3 girls are still without employment.

Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that this is a tragic situation, because these boys and girls are the descendants of men and women who had a similar experience in the inter-war years? Does he realise the disastrous psychological effect this has on these boys and girls, and will he bestir himself in order that these young people can take their place in our society?

Of 168 girls who left school at Christmas, only three are still without employment—[An HON. MEMBER: "Three too many."]—yes, three too many; but it is still a satisfactory improvement in the employment situation for girls. The problem is that there are 30 boys out of the 171 who have not yet been able to find employment, and that position is tied up, as I said in my previous Answer, with the present difficulties of the industries in that area.

Arising out of what my right hon. Friend said about the difficulties of the shipbuilding and ship-repairing industries, will he tell the House why his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade should have discriminated against the ship-repairing industry in the Local Employment Bill?

We spent yesterday debating this matter, Mr. Speaker. Perhaps my hon. Friend will put that Question to my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty on what grounds the bathyscaphe was declined when offered to his Department by Professor Piccard.

The Admiralty carefully considered Professor Piccard's offer in 1955 that it should collaborate in and finance the operation of his bathyscaphe in the Bermuda area. It judged that its contribution to world-wide oceanic investigations could be more effectively undertaken through its own survey ships and the National Institute of Oceanography.

As Professor Piccard offered this instrument to the Admiralty for nothing—all that the Admiralty had to do was to pay the running and the development costs—was not a wonderful opportunity for Britain missed? Is the Minister aware that the Piccard family, which is very pro-British, is still anxious to build a bathyscaphe for Britain? Will he look into this, and see that a second opportunity is not missed?

We were called on to pay very considerable sums for the fuel which acts as ballast, and for getting to the area. I will certainly look at the hon. Member's second point.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty whether he will give some form of financial assistance to Mrs. Mary Jones, 100, Wemyss Street, Rosyth, widow of Mr. William Jones, seaman, who died after falling from a ladder on 11th August, 1959, in the boiler room of the dredger "St. Giles" seven miles off the Scarborough coast.

I am sorry to say that it is not possible to grant Mrs. Jones a widow's pension, because her late husband had chosen to contract out of the widow's pension scheme. Mrs. Jones, however, has been granted a gratuity of £429 13s. 6d., which represents one year's average pay of her late husband. A cheque for this amount was sent to Mrs. Jones, through her solicitors, on 29th January.

I thank the Minister for that reply.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty the total tonnage of ships launched for the Royal Navy in 1959; and how this compares with the post-war average.

It was 25,500 tons approximately. This is rather above the post-war yearly average, including a period when war-time aircraft carriers were still being launched.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty the total tonnage of submarines launched in 1959; and how this compares with any pre-war and post-war year.

Last year we launched five submarines totalling rather more than 8,000 tons. With the exception of the war years, this figure has been exceeded only once in the last forty years.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty to what extent the training of personnel is being held up by the lack of a sufficient number of sea-going billets.

While there were some difficulties of this kind last year, these have been largely overcome, and no training is now being held up to any significant extent.

But is not the Civil Lord aware that the delay in training these personnel affects their promotion? Further, is he aware that the steps that the Admiralty are taking to overcome this difficulty are leading to conditions of overcrowding of living space, which his Department boasts of overcoming?

I think that it would have been surprising if we had completed reorganising the Fleet in the manner in which we have without running into certain organisational difficulties, and I am glad that we have overcome them so quickly.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty when it is proposed to start replacing the existing major amphibious craft such as the L.S.T. and L.C.T. 8.

The existing L.S.T.s and L.C.T.s, after routine and extended refits, still have some years of useful life. A replacement programme will be started before they come to the end of their hull life.

Is my hon. Friend aware that none of these ships is capable of keeping up with a commando carrier, and will he press forward with the development of a design of a new assault ship and lay it down as soon as possible?

We are aware that by present standards these L.S.T.s—and, particularly, L.C.T.s—are too slow, and we are keeping up with the latest technique and design efforts in the United States and elsewhere.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty on how many occasions and to what extent the rents of houses owned by his Department have been raised since 1957; and how far the income of the tenant is taken into account in assessing the amount of the increased rent to be charged.

There has been only one general increase in the rents of Admiralty-owned houses since 1957; this took place in 1959, in accordance with a new scheme of rents applied to tenants of all Government-owned houses. Rents, which had remained fixed for twenty years, or more, were increased in 70 per cent. of the cases by 7s. 6d. a week or less. The new rent is based on the rateable value and not on the income, but there was provision for temporary relief in cases of hardship.

Is the Civil Lord aware that his right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government constantly advocates to public bodies that in making rent increases they should take into account the tenant's ability to pay? Apart from the last part of his reply, is it correct to say that the Admiralty is not, in fact, carrying out this policy?

I do not think that it would be right for a Government Department to start operating a differential rent scheme on its own. As I said in my original Answer, I think that it is right that we should take into consideration cases of hardship where tenants felt, after twenty years of frozen rents, that this increase was more than they could bear.

Notwithstanding the innuendo contained in the supplementary question asked by the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Swingler), is it not a fact there is a much greater element of subsidy in Service married quarters than is to be found in any council estate in the Kingdom?

I could not comment on that without notice.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, quite apart from the ability to pay these 1959 rent increases, increases were placed on many houses—in my constituency, at any rate—of a substandard nature; that there were great protests by the tenants, and that I have been waiting for a long time now for his Department to deal with an individual case? Can he try to get a decision so that I can explain the position to my constituents?

I am aware that we have some sub-standard houses, but we are trying to bring them up to the more modern standards as fast as we can. I shall certainly look at the second point mentioned by the hon. Gentleman.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty (1) if he will give an assurance that in order to spread the knowledge of nuclear-propelled submarines the first all-British nuclear submarine foreshadowed in the Defence White Paper will be built on the Tyne;

The Report on Defence announces only the order of the second nuclear-propelled submarine referred to by my hon. Friend. I cannot give her an assurance that this will be built on the Tyne. The building of modern submarines, even conventionally powered, requires highly specialised techniques and equipment.

I thank my hon. Friend for that piece of good news, but could he give an assurance that in this whole range of nuclear development in Service Departments, the knowledge will be spread as widely as possible—not only in Barrow-in-Furness and on the Tyne, but to all these technical colleges—so that all the knowledge necessary for the grasping of this new instrument, so to speak, will be made available to the whole country, and not concentrated only in one area?

I will certainly bear in mind what my hon. Friend says. I thought that by my first Answer I might have had the unique distinction of being the first Minister ever to have satisfied my hon. Friend in this House of Commons.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty what arrangements are being made to turn over ships, sailing and pulling boats that are surplus to requirement to units of the Sea Cadet Corps or Admiralty qualified groups of Sea Scouts.

We arrange for all surplus pulling and sailing craft to be offered on loan to the Sea Cadet Corps and naval sections of the Combined Cadet Force. Those craft not required are then offered for sale to Admiralty recognised units of the Sea Scouts.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that the best way in which the Admiralty can help these different organisations is by providing these craft which are expensive to buy? Is he satisfied that the supply meets the demand at present?

I am satisfied that up to the present the supply has met the demand. As to the future, I think it is a little more worrying, and we are surveying the matter to see whether in future the craft becoming available will be sufficient to replace those which are wearing out.

Will my hon. Friend also remember the needs of the Royal Hospital School at Holbrook?

As chairman of the management committee of that school, I will bear its needs in mind. I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend that it will get the same consideration as the Sea Scouts, but we cannot allow these organisations to have these craft on Navy Votes.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty what has been the cost of maintenance of H.M.S. "Vanguard" since 1951; and what is the future of this vessel.

The cost has been £1·71 million, almost all of which was spent before 1956. As stated in my noble Friend's Explanatory Statement, H.M.S. "Vanguard" is to be scrapped.

Will the Civil Lord tell the House why in the last eight years we have been told that H.M.S. "Vanguard" was of the utmost importance and that it was essential to provide maintenance, in view of the fact that after all these years it has been decided to break up this vessel as it is no longer of any importance? Is it not shocking of the Admiralty, and ought not the Board of Admiralty to be asked to resign forthwith?

Until 1958 H.M.S. "Vanguard" was considered by N.A.T.O. as a very useful warship. She was obligated and declared to N.A.T.O. as a warship in a high state of operational readiness. It is not the judgment of the Admiralty which was at fault; it is the judgment of N.A.T.O. which the right hon. Gentleman should query.

Then ought we not to ask N.A.T.O. to resign?

While agreeing that a great deal of money has been wasted on this ship, may I ask whether it is a fact that a real mistake was made immediately after the war, when the first atom bomb was exploded and when it should have been quite clear that it was not worth while completing the ship; but that, having completed her, it was not easy to judge when to cut one's losses?

It is true that very considerable sums of money were spent from 1946 to 1951 when the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) bore a lot of responsibility. But I would ask the House to bear in mind that it has served a very useful purpose in our naval alliances, and incidentally has provided useful accomodation for 750 ratings and training facilities since 1958.

Is not the hon. Gentleman going too far when he puts all the responsibility on N.A.T.O.? Is the Navy no longer responsible for its own ships and answerable to this House for them?

Yes, but N.A.T.O. valued the ship and she was obligated and declared to N.A.T.O. I am not blaming N.A.T.O. I am just saying that she was declared to N.A.T.O., although she was in earlier years under the right hon. Gentleman's régime with our active Fleet.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty what will be the age limits for entry under the mechanician apprentice scheme mentioned in the Explanatory Statement on the Navy Estimates; and whether he will give additional information on the matter.

Entry will be open to young men between 17½ and 23, i.e. those who have remained at school beyond the normal apprentice age. We aim thus to obtain suitable candidates who can be assimilated after five years intensive training into the skilled manpower eventually available from the artificer apprentice and mechanic entries. The recruitment of artificer apprentices will remain at about the present level.

While welcoming this excellent scheme, may I ask whether my hon. Friend can say if these apprentices will be on a higher pay structure?

Yes, Sir; when they first start they will be paid £6 9s. 6d. a week all found.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty when the keel for the fourth of the guided missile destroyers mentioned in the Explanatory Statement will be laid.

Two of the four guided missile destroyers referred to in my noble Friend's Explanatory Statement have been laid down so far. As I have just announced, the third ship is due to be laid down at Wallsend-on-Tyne on 26th February and the fourth will be laid down at Belfast on 1st March. 1960.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty what plans he has for the Royal Marine Barracks, Stonehouse, Plymouth.

The need for these barracks is at present under review.

Will my hon. Friend get on with this fairly quickly, because there is a great need to know whether these barracks are to be repaired or not? Will he be able to give me a further reply in the debate on the Navy Estimates?

Yes, we will certainly press on with this matter.

asked the Secretary of State for War what inquiry he has made into the circumstances of the death of the late 23517612 Guardsman John Charles Nugent, who was accidentally shot and killed during the course of rifle practice at Pirbright Camp on 18th March, 1959.

At an inquest held at Aldershot on 8th April, 1959, a verdict of accidental death was recorded. A military board of inquiry was then directed to report on the accident with particular reference to safety precautions and other matters affecting military training. No evidence came to light at this inquiry which had not been given to the coroner.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the parents of this boy, who live in my constituency, are extremely unhappy at not being given more particulars about these inquiries, particularly as the father alleges that he was not given sufficient notice to enable him to be represented at the inquest? Does not my hon. Friend agree that the public relations of his Department are at fault in tragic cases of this nature?

I will look into any matter that my hon. Friend raises, but the point was that the family asked to see the report of the proceedings of the Board of Inquiry and, as the House knows, Crown privilege is claimed for such documents, and must continue to be claimed.

asked the Secretary of State for War what provision he makes in regard to the headstones for the graves of soldiers killed on service.

Headstones are provided by the War Department unless the family of a deceased soldier decide to make private arrangements for his funeral.

Further to my supplementary question on Question No. 34, will my hon. Friend look into this matter because it is a point of particular grievance in this case that the parents had a natural desire to have their son buried at home and no assistance was given in this respect?

Assistance is given, but I must make it clear that it is given in the form of a small Army grant to those who wish to have their deceased relatives buried at home rather than have a military funeral. Where there is a military funeral we undertake the whole cost. For a private funeral, we make a small grant of between £5 and £10. There is, of course, the other grant available from National Insurance of £25. It is impossible for the Service Departments to undertake to defray the expenses of all private funerals.

asked the Secretary of State for War what instructions he has given to commanding officers about the nature and scope of initiative tests; what training objectives are achieved by certain tests, details of which have been sent to him; and what was the reason for the venue of the tests.

An Army Council Instruction was published in 1956 forbidding escapades of this kind and a reminding letter was sent to Commands in October last year. The initiative tests referred to by the hon. Member were ordered in contravention of these instructions. Suitable action is being taken.

While thanking the Under-Secretary of State for that reply, may I ask him to tell us what reasons were given for believing that the kissing of showgirls, gaining admission to nudist camps and securing photographs and intimate articles of women's wear would improve the efficiency of the soldier in battle? What sort of enemy do these commanding officers visualise? In view of the deep feelings that these antics have aroused, will the hon. Gentleman arrange for the officers concerned to be thoroughly examined by psychiatrists?

Until the disciplinary process is completed, it would be inappropriate for me to comment.

asked the Secretary of State for War to what extent the rents of houses owned by his Department have been raised since 1957; and what steps have been taken to relate the increases in rents to the tenants' ability to pay.

The increases, which average about 20 per cent., are not related to the tenants' income.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that he is the third Service Minister of whom I have asked this Question and that the Answers from all Service Departments show that there is no co-ordination in this matter between the Service Departments, except that they all defy the Minister of Housing and Local Government in refusing to relate rent increases to people's ability to pay? Can the hon. Gentleman say why this is so?

I disagree with the hon. Gentleman. It is simply a question of tenants paying a fair rent according to the rateable value, as they would have to do with any other landlord. As my hon. Friend the Civil Lord of the Admiralty has pointed out, there is a system of redress of grievance. There are 2,700 Army houses, apart from the ordnance factory houses, and I know so far of only four cases of genuine hardship which we are investigating.

Is my hon. Friend aware that in assessing rent increases public bodies, such as local authorities, have been asked to take into account the tenants ability to pay? The Under-Secretary has said that the War Department refuses to do this. Why does it refuse to carry out Government policy?

The War Office is not refusing to carry out Government policy. It is carrying out Government policy, as are all other Government Departments.

asked the Secretary of State for War how many consultations between his Department and the Royal Fine Art Commission, on the design of new buildings or of major works of reconstruction, there have been in the past five years; which projects were discussed on these occasions; on which occasions regret was expressed by the Commission that there had not been earlier consultation; and in what circumstances the design of a new building is officially regarded as of no artistic importance.

We have discussed with the Commission our plans for Woolwich, Chelsea and Wellington Barracks; Redford Barracks, Edinburgh; Millbank Hospital and the Queen Victoria School, Dunblane. On one occasion the Commission expressed regret that it had not been consulted earlier.

Can the hon. Gentleman say when he is not in doubt about the artistic importance of any building?

The Commission is a small body, as the hon. Gentleman knows. It cannot be consulted in every single instance. We do consult it and have discussions with it on our general policy. We propose in future to consult it on a considerable number of buildings, including the Hyde Park Barracks, and we have been consulting it outside London on the Castle at Chester. We have good relations with the Commission, and I am glad to say that one of its members is a consulting architect to the War Department.

Are things better now than they were eighteen months ago, when—as the hon. Gentleman must be aware—the Commission complained bitterly of late consultation and inferior and shoddy design?

I think "bitterly" is an exaggeration.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been drawn to the evidence in the recent trial for murder of Guardsman Dowdall of the Welsh Guards, stationed at Pirbright, to the effect that he drank large quantities of neat gin in the presence of his sergeant, who did nothing to stop him, and to the evidence of the commanding officer that he would interfere only if there were disorder, or some Army regulation had been broken; and whether he will amend Army regulations so as to enable officers and non-commissioned officers to take action in situations of this kind.

Yes, Sir, and I have obtained a transcript of the evidence. I must correct the hon. Member's quotation of what was said by the commanding officer. He did not reply that he would not have interfered; his answer was to a question about the subsequent disciplinary action he might have taken if the incident had been reported to him. Elsewhere in his evidence the commanding officer said that Dowdall should have been prevented from drinking to excess, and affirmed that he would have prevented him if he had been present.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that a similar instance of a very serious nature occurred about six months ago—and was referred to in a trial at the Winchester Assizes—in which a sergeant's mess was open at twelve o'clock at night and a girl was brought there at about four o'clock in the morning, or between the hours of twelve and four? Will the hon. Gentleman say what kind of action was taken on that occasion? Will he also say, with regard to the case which I brought to his notice, why this young man, with the history he had, was not given proper attention in the course of his experience in the Army, so that he might not have committed the offence which he did commit? May I also ask him a further question?

No.

Why not? This is a very serious matter.

Speech.

It is not a speech; it is a question. May I also ask what action is being taken at present to ensure that parents, who are very deeply concerned about sending their young people into the Army, will feel that these young people have security and safety in matters of this description?

I cannot comment on the case which the hon. Gentleman has raised, because I have not had notice of it. As to the other case, I would say that Dowdall's abnormal and criminal acts took place away from his unit, usually at night, and I am advised that it would be very difficult to tell that this man was the psychopath he proved to be. Regarding the point which the hon. Gentleman made about how these men are looked after, I believe that the general discipline is good. In this unit it is extremely good, both in regard to the relationship with the civil police, the military police and its own internal system of control. Of course, this is a deeply serious matter, and I assure the hon. Gentleman that we are seeing that wherever possible there shall be no repetition. We have full powers under the Army Act to see that there is no repetition.

Is the hon. Gentleman making it clear that the sergeant in question has been instructed and that all the N.C.O.s have been instructed in the common-sense view that they ought not to allow a man, whatever his rank, to drink large quantities of neat gin?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Secretary of State for War why a military road has been constructed to the top of Yes Tor in the Dartmoor National Park.

I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer given on 27th January to my hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr. van Straubenzee).

Will the Minister take into account that that reply was most unsatisfactory? Is he saying that this road has been widened to take a Land Rover to the top of the highest hill in the West Country, in the middle of a National Park, because the authorities could not find a soldier who could ride a pony or a horse? If they cannot find one who can, in Okehampton camp, will they consider hiring a civilian from outside?

No, Sir. This seems a perfectly reasonable process. The object is to put up and lower the danger flag where there are ranges. I think that a great deal of inaccurate information has been put forward by some of the local Press saying that we are building a metalled road. In fact, we are using an existing track which has been there for some forty years.

I beg to give notice that, as the Minister's reply is completely unsatisfactory, I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

asked the Secretary of State for War (1) the numbers by types of operational Army units in the Middle East Command;

It would not be in the public interest to give more information than is contained in my right hon. Friend's Memorandum on the Army Estimates.

Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that, even on the rather exiguous information in these Estimates, the number of units and the responsibility of Middle East Command now are quite out of proportion with the massive bases at Episkopi and Dhekelia in Cyprus which are obviously being built up, and can he explain the discrepancy of the use of this vast base for a very small purpose?

All I can say is that this Command has always been of great importance to this country and to our allies and the N.A.T.O. commander has very wide responsibilities. Regarding the right hon. Gentleman's further comment, he will have noticed that his right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) has put Questions to the Minister of Defence which are to be answered later this afternoon.

asked the Postmaster-General on what date he received from the Clerk of the Essex County Council a copy of a letter addressed to Members of Parliament representing constituencies in the County, dated 16th December, on the subject of emergency telephone calls; and whether he will now arrange for all emergency calls to be free of charge, irrespective of whether they are made from public or private telephones.

asked the Postmaster-General why emergency calls are not free of charge whether they are made from public or private telephones.

Though the present practice is of long standing, I have decided that it is right to change it. As from today, charges for 999 calls made from subscribers' premises, and for the corresponding calls to manual telephone exchanges, will be abolished.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the general satisfaction, which I am sure is shared by my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich (Mr. Ridsdale), at this excellent change of policy?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Postmaster-General when a satellite television station will be provided for North Wales.

The B.B.C. tells me that it hopes to provide a satellite television station in North Wales in the second stage of its satellite programme. I understand that the Corporation is now preparing its plans for this stage. The I.T.A.'s plans for further extension in Wales are not yet finalised.

In view of the length of time which it appears to take to build these satellite stations, will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that when an application is made to him for approval of the sites, he will give his consent as expeditiously as possible, so as to cut down all unnecessary delay?

Directly the B.B.C. puts its proposals to me, I shall see that there is the least possible delay.

asked the Postmaster-General if he will give an assurance that no second programme television facilities will be given until steps have been taken to provide complete coverage under existing arrangements.

This question is one of many which will have to be taken into account before additional television programmes are decided upon, but I can give no specific undertaking now. Meanwhile, both the B.B.C. and I.T.A. are planning to extend their television coverages so far as practicable.

Since there are very many areas in the country which have very poor reception or, in some cases, no reception, will the Postmaster-General make certain that those areas are catered for before other grandiose schemes are entered upon?

The existing B.B.C. coverage takes in about 99 per cent. of the population and the I.T.A. coverage takes in about 94 per cent. The B.B.C. aims to go over 99 per cent. and the I.T.A. aims to go up to 98 per cent. The question of a third programme is, of course, bound up with all sorts of technical and wider considerations.

asked the Postmaster-General what progress has been made in the provision of a satellite station for television and sound broadcasting in mid-Wales; and whether he will make a statement.

The technical details of this station have been agreed and the equipment ordered. When the legal formalities in regard to the site are con cluded, the B.B.C. can start construction. It is too early for the Corporation to say when the station will open.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that he, or his predecessor, gave that information about six months ago? Will he expedite matters in his own Department, since I am satisfied with what the B.B.C. itself is doing?

I am satisfied that the B.B.C. is pushing on with this as rapidly as it can. I will keep in touch with the B.B.C. and keep the hon. Gentleman informed.