asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food by how much in the coming year he expects the agricultural industry will gain by increased efficiency; by how much this will be reduced by reduction of guarantees and increased cost; and what will be the reduced net income to the industry as a result of the 1960 Price Review.

Only a broad estimate can be made of the annual gain in efficiency, taking one year with another. In the Government's view, as stated in the recent Annual Review White Paper, the industry's efficiency continues to increase by at least £25 million a year for Review commodities. At the 1960 Review the net reduction in the guarantees, together with the increased costs, totalled about £22 million, leaving the industry with some £3 million of the estimated gain from increasing efficiency. The calculations cannot be exact, but the Annual Review determinations should enable the industry at least to maintain the present level of net income.

Is my hon. Friend aware that it is the view of the National Farmers' Union that over the last five years the incomes of the agricultural industry, as opposed to other incomes, have decreased, and would he not agree that it is the responsibility of the House and his job to see that that does not arise?

I know the claims made by the National Farmers' Union in regard to this point. It all depends, of course, upon the date from which one takes one's comparisons. I would not say that over the last five years incomes have, in fact, decreased. Over the last three years they have been maintained on a fairly high level on the adjusted to normal weather conditions. They are certainly higher than in the two previous years. I realise the views expressed by the farmers, but I think that the determinations which we made were fair and just.

Has the hon. Gentleman forgotten that he gave me figures the other day which showed that the incomes had dropped 10 per cent. under the present Government, whichever figures we take?

The figures to which the hon. Gentleman is referring are those adjusted to real terms, but in order to get the true picture of the incomes which farmers have at their disposal it must be remembered that a certain proportion of this is money used for capital investment, and in recent years the Government have been providing very considerable assistance outside the Price Review towards capital expenditure.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether, in view of the present unsatisfactory position, he will take steps to ensure that councils can enforce a decision arrived at in open council to impose meat inspection charges on abattoirs within their rural district areas.

My right hon. Friend is aware of the difficulties of meat inspection in some rural areas and is considering the problem, but I am not in a position at this stage to make a statement.

Will my hon. Friend remember that this is putting the local rural councils in an extremely difficult position because they are unable to enforce the inspection, as a result of which, apparently, a lot of meat throughout the whole country is going uninspected? Will my hon. Friend take steps to look at the matter again to see if he can find some method whereby he can give local authorities the power to impose inspection charges on the wholesale butchers?

I realise that this is a difficult problem, particularly in certain areas, and I know that, especially in the South-West, there are special problems. My right hon. Friend is well aware of this. We are trying to find some way of dealing with the problem but, as I have said, I am not in a position to make a statement at this stage.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he is yet in a position to increase the grants for travelling expenses for meat inspectors in rural areas; and if he will state the present position.

No, Sir. It has not been found practicable to take into account any special local circumstances in applying this grant. It is based on the national average cost of meat inspection.

As my hon. Friend is unable to accede to my request in my previous Question, will he look further at the question of giving grants in special cases to rural councils with a very small penny rate, so that they can once again get the meat inspected in their areas, which is impossible at the moment? Surely the present state of affairs is against the national interest?

I am aware of this problem, but I do not think it can be solved in this way. We have tried, by the introduction of these grants, to help over the country as a whole, and I am sure it has helped a great deal. As a result of this action, the percentage of meat inspected has increased very materially. As I indicated, my right hon. Friend is trying to find other ways of getting the whole matter settled. I am sorry that I cannot say anything further.

Could the hon. Gentleman say how soon he expects that the problem will be settled? In everybody's interests, all meat ought to be inspected and everything possible should be done to this end. Can the hon. Gentleman say how long we must wait before anything is done?

I entirely agree with the hon. Lady about the need to inspect meat and I shall not be satisfied until this has been achieved. As I have indicated, there are special problems. I cannot set a time limit. I can only assure the hon. Lady that we are as anxious as she is to make progress.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will take further steps to encourage agricultural seed research and development.

The valuable work already being done on this subject at various scientific institutes appears to cover existing needs. If, however, there is any particular aspect which my hon. Friend has in mind, I should be glad to look into it.

Can my hon. Friend give any indication of the possibility of introducing a copyright or patent for a limited number of years to help private firms going in for plant breeding and seed research?

The question of protecting the plant breeder by a grant of rights is being considered by the Committee on Transactions in Seeds. My right hon. Friend expects to receive the Committee's report in the summer, and we shall be able to consider the matter then.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the total estimated cost of agricultural support in Great Britain for 1960-61 divided between the implementation of price guarantees and production grants.

The estimated cost of the Agricultural support subsidies in the United Kingdom for 1960–61 is £1505 million for the implementation of price guarantees and £102·3 million for farming grants and subsidies.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether, in order to avoid exploitation of the farming community, he will introduce legislation to prohibit the sub-letting of land, leased by foreign interests, at rents substantially higher than the leasehold price.

My right hon. Friend has no reason to think that the transactions which I understand the hon. Member to have in mind give rise to the problems he describes. The leasing and sub-letting of land is a matter tor free negotiation between the parties concerned and my right hon. Friend sees no grounds on which he could intervene.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that some 6,000 acres of National Coal Board farmland in the County of Northumberland have been sub-let to a foreign interest at a rental of 26s. an acre and that this foreign interest has sub-let the land at 65s. an acre? This is surely a challenge to the business acumen of the National Coal Board, and is a matter of considerable local public concern. Will the Minister call for a report from the National Coal Board and place it in the Library, or institute a public inquiry into the transaction?

I am not certain that the facts are as the hon. Member has stated them. I have seen a Press report which gives a somewhat different view of this matter. In any case, I do not think that this is a matter in which my Ministry can properly intervene. It is a matter between landlord and tenant, and I do not think it would be proper for my Ministry to take any active part by intervening in the way in which the hon. Member suggests.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what progress has been made in the acquisition of the additional land needed to complete the Rosewarne Horticulture Experimental Station, Comborne, Cornwall.

Since this station was established in 1952, 5½ acres of adjoining land have been purchased. The question of further acquisitions has been under consideration from time to time, but I am not in a position to make any statement about this.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary take into account the fact that this station is doing exceedingly good work, that it is desirable that it should be extended to take in land adjacent to it. and will he do what he can to speed that transaction, subject only to not being required to pay an inordinate price for it?

I am glad the hon. Member included the last few words in his supplementary question. He and I have discussed this matter, and there are problems. I am as anxious as he is to see some extension of this station, and I hope that we shall be able to achieve it.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food his estimate of the reduction in the total value of the guarantees for the purposes of the 1960 Annual Price Review which will be effected by the reduction in the guaranteed prices for cereals.

The reductions in the guaranteed prices for cereals represent a reduction of about £3 million in the total value of the guarantees as calculated for the purposes of the Annual Review.

Would the hon. Gentleman agree that this shows that the muddle that the Government have got into over the subsidy policy is now making nonsense of agricultural economic policy? Surely, in view of the possibility of the balance of payments difficulty this year, we ought not to be creating this savage disincentive to the growing of feeding stuffs here? On the contrary, we ought to be encouraging it.

If that were what we were doing, I would agree with the hon. Member, but it is not. As to his suggestion that this is a savage disincentive, I would not interpret a cut of 3d. a cwt. in the price of barley, which is the main feeding stuff, as being a savage cut. I should have thought that, in view of the increase in yields that we are getting, barley is still a profitable crop to grow in the areas in which it is normally grown. I do not think this should be interpreted as a disincentive on the part of the Ministry.

Would my hon. Friend agree that, instead of this being a savage disincentive, in total the estimates for this year add up to £263 million, which is an excess of £22 million over last year's estimates?

Yes, I think my hon. Friend's figures are correct. There is certainly no question of a savage cut, and cereal growers will not be inhibited by what we have done.

The declared purpose of the cut is to reduce production.

No, I certainly would not agree that it is. That is not the intention. It is not said in the White Paper that we intend to decrease production. We want to see the production of cereals, particularly coarse grains, maintained.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, whatever the figures, the farmers' union in the county which we both represent is so critical of the Government's policy today that it has called for the resignation of the Minister of Agriculture, and that if the members of that union did not know and like the hon. Gentleman they would have coupled his name with this demand?

I appreciate the implied compliment in the last part of the supplementary question, but any calls for the resignation of my right hon. Friend are most unfair in this context, from whatever quarter they come. The farmers of Lincolnshire, who are friends of mine as well as of the hon. Member, have perhaps taken a somewhat jaundiced view at this stage, but when they have had a good harvest I hope they will look at the matter differently.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether any decision has yet been made on the future of the research establishment at Greyhope Road, Aberdeen.

My right hon. Friend has been considering the future of the experimental factory at Aberdeen when the development work on dehydration comes to an end in March, 1961. He has come to the conclusion that the other research projects at present being pursued there do not justify him in retaining this establishment.

Does my hon. Friend realise that this decision will cause grave disappointment, as a great deal of very valuable work has been done? Can he say what action has been taken by his Department to interest industry in making use of the research done by this Department? Is it not possible to give it future work to do?

Certainly my right hon. Friend attaches very great importance to the work that has been achieved here. It is his feeling, though, that this work could be best carried on now by private enterprise, and that it could be developed and utilised effectively in that way. A great number of food manufacturing firms have already shown a lively interest in this development, and we shall try to keep them in touch with what is being done at Aberdeen as long as the station is maintained.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in Scotland we have only 2·7 per cent. of all the research and development workers in Great Britain, and that any step which is taken by Her Majesty's Government to reduce that proportion is very much to be deplored?

I note the hon. Gentleman's comment, but I did say in my original answer that the Government are considering the suitability of the staff and premises for other activities.

What will this closure mean in terms of unemployment? Will my hon. Friend again consider giving a new programme of work to this establishment, which undoubtedly has done very valuable work?

It may be that some other effective use can be found, but not, I feel, in the fields for which my right hon. Friend is responsible. If unemployment should arise, of course, the transfer of staff will be given the most careful and sympathetic consideration.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will make a further statement on the report of the Committee on Grassland Utilisation.

My right hon. Friend is not quite ready to make a statement. Perhaps the hon. Member would put down a further Question after the Recess.

I shall accept the Parliamentary Secretary's advice, but has he forgotten that his right hon. Friend, as long ago as last December, promised me an early statement in the new year?

I admit freely that there has been delay and I apologise for it. It has been unavoidable and greater than my right hon. Friend had wished. Knowing the hon. Gentleman and his usual clemency, I am sure that he will not mind waiting another week or so.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the average income of old-age pensioners included in the latest published report of the National Food Survey Committee; and what proportion of that income was spent on food.

In the National Food Survey, old-age pensioner households are defined as those dependent primarily on their pensions and are thus not a representative sample of retirement pensioners. In 1957, which is the last year for which figures have been published, the average family income, as declared by the pensioners, was approximately £3 7s. 0d. per week or 45s. 6d. per head; and 56 per cent. of that sum was spent on food. The corresponding figures for 1958 were £3 18s. 0d., 53s. per head, and 50 per cent.

I thank the Parliamentary Secretary for those figures, but has he noticed the other figures which came from the Stock Exchange this morning showing that thousands of millions of pounds of tax-free capital gains have been made on the Stock Exchange since the election? Does he not feel that it is an affront to the conscience of the nation that, in circumstances like those, a substantial group of old-age pensioners should be counting the halfpennies for essential foodstuffs?

I am not so closely in touch with the Stock Exchange as the hon. Gentleman appears to be. We on this side of the House are just as sympathetic as anyone else towards the needs and requirements of old-age pensioners, who are, of course, considerably better off now than they were when hon. and right hon Members opposite were in power.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will invite the National Food Survey Committee to conduct a nation-wide sampling survey into the weekly food budgets of old-age pensioner families in receipt of National Assistance supplementation.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what number of old-age pensioner families in Scotland included in the latest Report of the National Food Survey Committee were in receipt of National Assistance supplementation; what was the average income of such families; and how much of that income was spent on food.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what number of old-age pensioner families included in the latest Report of the National Food Survey Committee were in receipt of National Assistance supplementation; what was the average income of such families; and what proportion of that income was spent on food.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT, from the data gathered by the National Food Survey Committee on the food budgets of old-age pensioners, a sample budget showing the weekly expenditure on food of a single old-age pensioner living on the basic pension plus National Assistance.

The group of families mentioned in these Questions cannot be distinguished, since the National Food Survey does not separate pension supplements paid by the National Assistance Board from other income of old-age pensioner households. The questions on incomes are only incidental to the main purpose of the survey, and it would be impracticable to ask detailed questions on sources of income. The survey covers families of all types, and a special inquiry restricted to one section of the community would not make the best use of its resources.

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that the results produced by this survey are really based on much too narrow a set of criteria to give any real information about how pensioners live? Will he accept the invitation to try to obtain sufficient information about how the pensioner who is dependent upon his pension alone lives, in order that the House may be able to judge how pensioners are faring in this so-called prosperous era?

We go to a good deal of trouble to get what information we can. This National Food Survey is a very big operation. If we tried to particularise more, I think it would be very difficult; already there is considerable delay in bringing the figures before the House, and matters would be even more delayed if we tried to go into more detail.

In my Question I asked for Scottish figures. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that many of these old-age pensioners can have no help at all from their families in Scotland because, in so many cases, the wage earners in those families are themselves unemployed? Further, does he realise that in not trying to obtain more information about these old-age pensioners who have to have help through supplementary assistance from the National Assistance Board he is doing a very great disservice to many thousands of old people in our country?

I do not accept at all that we are doing a disservice in this way. We are putting before the House what information we can obtain, and it is very useful information in this respect. I apologise to the hon. Lady for not giving Scottish figures, but, of course, the facts are the same in regard to both Scotland and England, so far as we can see. I note her point about unemployment in Scotland, but that is not, of course, a matter on which I ought to comment.

In a previous Answer, the Parliamentary Secretary said that about 50 per cent. of old-age pensioners' incomes was spent on food. Is he aware that in the official cost-of-living index the weighting for food is only 350 points out of 1,000, slightly more than a third? Does not this prove conclusively that the general cost-of-living index has no real relation to the cost of living of old-age pensioners? [HON. MEMBERS: "Speech."] Will the hon. Gentleman convey that to his right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance and ask him to stop refusing the claims of pensioners on the ground of—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speech."]— references to a cost of living which has no relation at all to the standard of living of old-age pensioners?

So far as I could gather the hon. Gentlman's supplementary question, I think it covered matters very much outside the scope of my Department. I will convey his comments to my right hon. Friend.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT a few samples of the separate weekly food budgets of old-age pensioners upon which the National Food Survey Committee based its conclusions on the quantities and value of food consumed by old-age pensioners showing at the same time the total income of the sample households and the number of persons contained in each.

I will, with permission, circulate these figures in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman for the information he is to give us, but may I draw his attention particularly to certain results of the National Food Survey, where he will find that there is cause for very grave anxiety if the information is to be accepted as an indication of how old-age pensioners are living? Does he realise that the Report is based upon a sample of only 776 families out of the many millions of old-age pensioners in Britain and that, moreover, the income may be as much as £7 per head in each family, which is quite unrepresentative of the circumstances of old-age pensioners living on National Assistance supplementation? May we have information based on a grouping of people living on National Assistance supplementation?

I have already answered that point. If the hon. Gentleman studies the figures given in my Answer which will be circulated, he will, I think, find more information.

Does the Parliamentary Secretary recognise that these figures are 1957 figures and we really ought to make efforts to obtain more up-to-date information? Why will he not accept that there is a good deal of concern about old-age pensioners and old people generally, and that there is a very good case for obtaining further information so that we can decide whether or not there ought to be a special index?

The point I was trying to make earlier is really the reply to the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question. If we try to make these things more involved and complicated, we shall only delay the results further. I am sorry that there is this delay, but very complex calculations are involved and there is a tremendous amount of tabulation, which does take a great deal of time. If we seek to spread our net wider, we shall only delay matters more. I accept that there is concern about old-age pensioners and I have indicated that it is shared on both sides of the House at all times. We wish to see old-age pensioners given the best conditions possible. I have already indicated that the record of this Government is a good one in this respect.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the range of income found among the 776 old-age pensioner families included in the latest Report of the National Food Survey Committee.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the range of expenditure on food found among the 776 old-age pensioner families included in the latest Report of the National Food Survey Committee.

While the particulars of weekly income and food expenditure enable satisfactory group averages to be estimated for a period of three months or a year, it would be misleading to quote extreme values which may be affected in any one week by unusual circumstances, such as the depletion or replenishment of larder stocks. More- over, informants are assured that any information regarding individuals will not be disclosed without their consent.

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that many of us are very dissatisfied because we know that there is no sound statistical basis for the conclusions he draws in that and previous Answers on this subject? No one could make a generalised medical pronouncement, still less a social diagnosis, on such a basis. Will he be reasonable about the matter and accept that this study, if it is to be useful, must really be more extensive to make it a satisfactory basis for any deductions which may be derived from it?

No, I would not accept those strictures. The National Food Survey gives a great deal of very useful information. This is not invalidated by the fact that I have been unable to give this specific information.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that the average, which is the figure given in the National Food Survey, can conceal a multitude of deficiencies in the diet of those old-age pensioners who come below the average? Will he not accept that it is a matter of considerable public concern that we should be assured that an adequate scientific investigation is made, of which we have the result, so that we may know how those old-age pensioners who fall below the average are living and how many of them there are?

This is related to consideration of the food nutrition of the country as a whole, and this section dealing with old-age pensioners is valuable in so far as it goes. I do not pretend that it answers all the points raised by hon. Members opposite, but it gives a very fair indication.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Answers to these Questions, I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the factors on consideration of which the Government appointed directors to British Petroleum Company, Limited, Glanmorfa, Limited, North British Locomotive Company, Limited, S. G. Brown, Limited, National Cold Stores (Management), Limited, Re-commissioned Mills, Limited, British Sugar Corporation, Limited, Nedal (1954), Limited, British Field Products, Limited, Short Brothers and Harland, Limited, S.B. (Realisations), Limited, Scottish Diatomite, Limited, and Power Jets (Research and Development), Limited, respectively.

Various considerations have influenced the Government of the day in deciding to appoint directors to these companies— including the needs of defence, the interests of consumers at large, or the fact that the Government either owned the companies or made significant contributions to their financing.

Can the hon. Member say whether these principles apply when the Government give consideration to whether or not to appoint directors to companies in which they have substantial financial interests?

If the hon. Member has a particular case in mind, perhaps he would write to me about it.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will initiate discussions with a view to introducing legislation to ensure that different denominations of bank notes shall be of a distinctive size, and that all the issuing banks concerned shall issue notes of agreed sizes.

No, Sir, but I understand that the bank notes in the new series will be different in size, not only from each other, but also from the three current notes and from the Scottish notes.

In Scotland there are five joint stock banks which issue bank notes which, although different in design, are of the same size. Hitherto their £1 notes have been the same size as the Bank of England £1 note. Will not this difference in the Bank of England note make it extremely difficult for those who are blind to differentiate between the notes and cause a great nuisance for those in the banks who have to sort and count the notes?

As I think my hon. Friend knows, the Treasury is not responsible for the size, design or production of notes, but I will certainly bear in mind what he says.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware of the representations, a copy of which has been sent to him, of the Association of University Teachers, as expressed to the University Grants Committee, that no new proposals concerning the salaries of university teachers should include further differentials beyond those at present existing between teachers of medical and non-medical subjects; and what action he proposes to take in this regard.

My right hon. Friend is aware of these representations. He is at present considering the advice which he has received from the University Grants Committee on university academic salaries generally, and he has no statement to make.

Will the hon. Member inform his right hon. Friend of the very serious concern felt in all branches of the universities on this matter? They very much hope that he will not think it reasonable to introduce further differentials and that he will pay regard to the fact that the university staffs have other suggestions to make, including the creation of more higher posts, to solve the problem of recruitment for branches which are in short supply?

I cannot add to my Answer, but I can assure the hon. Lady that I am in close touch with this subject and that my right hon. Friend himself is considering it carefully.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what proposals for differential remuneration of university teachers according to subject or faculty have been made to him by the University Grants Committee in the course of the current negotiations on university salaries; and to what extent he accepts the principle of further differentiation.

As my right hon. Friend informed the House on 1st April, he is considering the advice which the University Grants Committee has given him on university academic salaries generally. I cannot say more at this stage.

Can the hon. Gentleman at least say whether this proposal has been made? Will he take note of the widespread dismay in the universities about the rumours of the proposal, particularly with regard to the difficulties which have already arisen out of the differentiation between pre-clinical and non-medical salaries? Will the hon. Member think very carefully before he accepts any suggestions of this kind?

I would rather not add to my Answer, but I can assure the hon. Member and the hon. Lady the Member for Lanark (Mrs. Hart) that these points are very much in our minds and that we are well aware of the matter to which he has referred.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will take steps to ensure that the factual survey to be undertaken by the Organisation for European Economic Co-operation on the tariff proposals of the European Economic Community and the European Free Trade Area countries will be made available to Members of Parliament.

I see no reason to suppose that the Governments concerned will have any objection to the results of this factual survey being published.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will introduce a scheme under which holders of 3½ per cent. war stock may be repaid at par over a period of years.

No, Sir.

My hon. Friend's reply is not unexpected, but will he bear in mind that post-war credits, which is money lent compulsorily, are being paid at an accelerated rate, while with War Loan, which is money lent voluntarily, nothing is being done at all? Will he have another look at the matter?

I appreciate what my hon. Friend says, but I am sure that he, in his turn, will realise that, although there are certain similarities between the repayment of post-war credits and the position of 3½ per cent. War Loan, there are very great differences in most of the relevant considerations. I hope that my hon. Friend will realise that, whatever the legal position, it would be unfair to holders of other undated stock if we were to take the special action he has suggested in relation to this stock.

Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that it is still the policy of Her Majesty's Government not to support the price of gilt-edged on the Stock Exchange?

That is another question.

Does not my hon. Friend agree that this stock is rather different from other securities of a similar nature in that an appeal was made that people should invest in it for patriotic reasons, and that, although it was undated, a pledge was given that it would be repaid some time after 1952? Does not my hon. Friend think, therefore, that a start could be made with the original holders of this stock?

I think that there would be great difficulty in doing what my hon. Friend suggests. She knows the difficulties only too well from the letter which my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer sent her some time ago. I would only mention to her that, whatever her views may be about what she calls the patriotic appeal, we are proceeding in accordance with the terms of issue. I think that if we were to take the sort of action which she has suggested it would be unfair to past holders of the stock who base their decision to sell their holdings on the assumption that no special action of this kind would be taken.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to what extent the expenditure of the Atomic Energy Authority, the Ministry of Power, the Ministry of Labour, and the Home Office for defence purposes is reimbursed by the defence and Service Departments; and what is the total amount of such expenditure which is not reimbursed.

The defence expenditure of the Ministry of Power, the Ministry of Labour and the Home Office is not reimbursed by the Service Departments. Particulars of this expenditure are given on pages 17 and 18 of the Report on Defence presented to Parliament by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence in February (Cmnd. 952). The Estimates of the Atomic Energy Authority are published net of certain receipts not disclosed for security reasons.

Is it not the case that even the net expenditure of the Atomic Energy Authority represents a great deal of expenditure on military account for research and development purposes in relation to plutonium and the construction of plutonium-producing factories, and so on? While some of this expenditure has to be disguised for security reasons, would not the hon. Gentleman agree that the real total of defence expenditure is about £1,700 million?

I am not prepared to be drawn further on the question of the net expenditure of the Atomic Energy Authority, because it has long been accepted in all parts of the House that it is not desirable to add to the published information on this subject, but the hon. Member can see the figures in relation to the Ministry of Power, the Ministry of Labour and the Home Office in the Defence White Paper. They come altogether to about £9· million.

While there is no desire on this side, nor indeed in any part of the House, for detailed figures in respect of a certain class of defence expenditure, is there any reason why the general figure should be concealed? What is the use of pretending that we are spending only £1,500 million or £1,600 million on defence when we are, in fact, spending £1,800 million? Should not we know the facts?

I do not want to hide anything unnecessarily from the House. All of us on this side recognise the responsible manner in which the right hon. Gentleman occupied the office of Minister of Defence, but it is not easy to decide exactly what should be categorised as defence expenditure and what should not. I am not prepared in an Answer in Parliament to go further with regard to the estimates of the Atomic Energy Authority.

asked the President of the Board of Trade how many new jobs are in prospect in the immediate future in the Central West Fife area.

It is estimated that about 450 new jobs will become available in the area over the next few months.

Can the hon. Gentleman be more specific and say exactly where these jobs will be? Is it a net figure taking into account the steady run-down of the mining industry?

It is not possible at the moment to give the names of the firms. At the moment, they are confidential. These are 450 new jobs that will be provided.

asked the President of the Board of Trade the percentage increases in British exports to, and imports from, Poland in each of the last three years; to what extent the Polish orders for capital goods in the United Kingdom are increasing; and what steps he is taking to expand this trade further.

In 1957, United Kingdom exports to Poland decreased by 2 per cent. as compared with the previous year. In 1958 and 1959, they increased correspondingly by 14 per cent. and 48 per cent. The equivalent figures for United Kingdom imports from Poland are a decrease of 21 per cent., an increase of 10 per cent. and an increase of 26 per cent. respectively. No statistics are available of orders placed in the United Kingdom for capital goods for export. Negotiations on trade with Poland in 1960 and thereafter are due to be resumed shortly and the possibility of expanding this trade further will then be explored.

Is the Minister aware of the great possibilities of expanding this trade? Is he aware that the Poles have said that they are anxious and willing to place really big orders for industrial equipment in Britain, but that this is made difficult for them by the fact that Her Majesty's Government have cut the quotas for the importation of Polish goods into this country this year? Is the hon. Gentleman willing to reconsider the matter, in view of the importance of the orders which the Poles could place here?

We fully recognise the importance of obtaining these orders, and the points which the hon. Member has put are fully in the minds of my right hon. Friends.

Will the Minister of State bear in mind that, because of the desperate need of the Polish Government for foreign currency, they are entering into bilateral and other arrangements for the export of their coal to Europe at prices far below the cost of production, which is doing great harm to our prospects of increasing our export trade in Europe?

We are aware of the arrangements which the Polish Government are making for the export of their coal.

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will publish as a White Paper the full terms and conditions of any agreement made with a private firm under the Local Employment Act whenever such an agreement is concluded.

No, Sir. As my right hon. Friend told the hon. Member for Thurrock (Mr. Delargy) in an Answer he gave him last week, it would not be proper to disclose details of assistance given or promised to individual firms under the Local Employment Act.

This will not do. Will my hon. Friend undertake to inform his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade that it is simply not good enough to obtain from Parliament a blank cheque for the spending of large sums of money and then not even to report the progress of the spending? Will my hon. Friend please bear in mind that even the Pekinese-type of Parliament which we now have is deserving of a little bit more than these elderly crumbs of information which we are promised?

Perhaps, in his intemperate language, my hon. Friend has forgotten that my right hon. Friend has already promised to consider what general information about assistance that is provided under the Act should be included in the annual report that we intend to present to Parliament.

On a point of order. I should like your guidance, Mr. Speaker, whether this reference to the Pekinese in Parliament is in order?

I have no doubt that there is a variation between Pekinese, so that I would rather not rule.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether an application for an industrial development certificate by Martin Baker Aircraft, Limited, has yet been made or granted for building industrial premises at Chalgrove, Oxfordshire.

No, Sir.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that, quite apart from the fact that many people object altogether to the leasing of the airfield to this firm, it would be an unsuitable location from all points of view for building new factories and that any suggestion of that kind would be much resented.

I appreciate the right hon. Gentleman's concern. The company, however, has planning permission to carry out research and development work on ejector seats for aircraft, but it has told the Air Ministry that it has no intention whatever of seeking to erect a factory at Chalgrove.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that the company has its manufacturing side in my constituency and that it would be quite absurd to ask it to do its testing in the North of England?

That has been appreciated.

asked the President of the Board of Trade what progress his Department has made in attracting another firm to the Stephenson Hawthorn factory in Newcastle-upon-Tyne.

I regret that we have not been able to find a new occupier.

Will the Minister bear in mind that the closure of his factory will be very bad indeed, from the point of view both of employment and of the prestige of the district? Will he remember that it is the oldest engineering works in the North of England and one of the oldest in the country, and that George Stephenson's "Rocket" was built there? Will he bear in mind that English Electric bought the factory three years ago and is now closing it without any regard to its social obligations to the workpeople? Will the hon. Gentleman do his best to get another labour-employing industry there and ensure that it is not turned over to warehousing?

We appreciate the importance of the factory to the area and we are doing our best to find a tenant, but I am afraid we cannot do more.

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will now announce the terms of the Annual Agreement with Bulgaria regarding the 1960–61 importation of fruit pulp, showing details of quantities and prices in respect of each variety of fruit, and the operative dates.

The quotas for the import of fruit pulp from Bulgaria in the twelve months ending 31st March, 1961, are:

Will my hon. Friend accept the assurance that this decision will be greatly welcomed in the strawberry-growing areas in particular? Will he, however, watch carefully to ensure that what he has said in answer to Question No. 29 concerning the Poles does not undermine all the benefit that is likely to be derived from the agreement?

Naturally, I welcome my hon. and gallant Friend's assurance. I will try to interpret exactly what he meant by his reference to Question No. 29.

asked the President of the Board of Trade how often he proposes, in future, to alter the list of development districts under the Local Employment Act.

As I said in my Answer last Tuesday to the hon. Member for Durham (Mr. Grey), the list of development districts will be altered whenever the situation requires.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary note that, although we welcome the latest additions to the list and we are all in favour of reasonable flexibility, if he issues a new list every few weeks he will get into the sort of confusion that he was in a few years ago?

I entirely agree that too frequent changes would lead to confusion. It is possible that the list will not be revised more than, say, three or four times a year at most.

Can the hon. Gentleman give the House an assurance that he will in no circumstances alter the list for political convenience within six months of the next General Election?

There has been no political consideration whatever in compiling the list of places which are to be found in the list of development districts.

asked the President of the Board of Trade what representations he has received from persons and firms relating to the dumping in this country of United States pornographic paper-back books, which are now arriving in large numbers and being sold at cheap prices.

The Board of Trade was approached some months ago about the possible dumping of cheap books from the United States. No application has been made for the imposition of an antidumping duty. As regards the law on the import of pornographic books, I would refer the hon. Member to the replies given to him and to the hon. and learned Member for Ilkeston (Mr. Oliver) and my hon. Friend the Member for Heston and Isleworth (Mr. R. Harris) on 10th December last.

I am aware of that, but is the Minister aware that this is now becoming a serious problem? My information is Chat a great many wholesalers are cutting back drastically their orders for English books because of the higher profit margin which they can obtain on American pornographic books, which are being imported into this country very cheaply. Does not the Minister think that, in the public interest, something ought to be done about this?

The pornographic material is properly dealt with under separate legislation, which I have described to the hon. Member on a previous occasion. It would be quite wrong to use the anti-dumping legislation as a form of censorship. If, however, from the viewpoint of material injury to British printing and publishing interests, it were desirable for them to proceed with an application under the anti-dumping legislation, the Board of Trade would, of course, be willing to consider it.

Does the Minister recognise that there is a liberalising of censorship all over the world? Will he ensure that the general restrictive powers which he possesses are not used in the direction of censorship of literature?

I am glad to give that assurance. We have no intention of using for censorship purposes our powers to control imports.

asked the President of the Board of Trade, following the recent conversations between the sponsors of the projected Clyde Graving Dock and the Development Areas Treasury Advisory Committee, if he will make a statement of Her Majesty's Government's intentions.

The provisional offer made to the sponsors last autumn has now been confirmed. If the sponsors proceed with the project, financial assistance will be available in accordance with the terms arranged between them and the Treasury.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is a great deal of concern on this side of the House about the breakdown of the sponsors' arrangements in view of the fact that the Treasury raised the matter of guaranteed capital? Am I to assume from the Answer that the snag which was made public in January is now overcome, and that D.A.T.A.C. is willing to accept the sponsors' bona fides as presently presented to it?

The offer is conditional on satisfactory reports being obtained from B.O.T.A.C.'s technical advisers and accountants. General MacMillan was informed of this on 25th March.

asked the President of the Board of Trade why the letter sent by the Parliamentary Secretary of the Board of Trade to 47,000 manufacturing establishments on 31st March contained no reference to Northern Ireland.

asked the President of the Board of Trade what steps he is taking to bring facilities available in Northern Ireland to the attention of firms wishing to expand.

asked the President of the Board of Trade why no reference to Northern Ireland's facilities for industrial development was made in the leaflet, "Expanding Industry", issued by his Department; and whether he will at once issue a supplementary pamphlet drawing attention to these facilities.

The leaflet "Expanding Industry" was designed to describe the Board of Trade's powers under the Local Employment Act, which, as hon. Members know, applies only to Great Britain. For that reason, following the previous leaflet "Industry on the Move", it did not refer to the powers of the Northern Ireland Government under their legislation. My right hon. Friend has, however, arranged for a reference to the facilities available in Northern Ireland to be included in the reprint which will shortly be available. I would also draw attention to the arrangements for closer co-operation between the Board of Trade and the Ministry of Commerce in Northern Ireland which were announced by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary on 30th March.

Is my hon. Friend aware that, coming on the very morning after the debate on Northern Ireland in the House, the omission caused dismay? We accept and welcome what is now said about the reprint, and my hon. and right hon. Friends will have our full forgiveness if they lose no opportunity in the future to draw attention to Northern Ireland.

While thanking my hon. Friend for this reply, I should like to add to what my hon. and gallant Friend has said by asking for an assurance that if my hon. Friend is re-circularising those 47,000 firms he will draw their attention to the facilities available in Northern Ireland. I hope they will not simply get a duplicate of what they have already got, with a little bit added at the bottom which they may not note. Further, will my hon. Friend give the assurance that the facilities available in Northern Ireland will be given to firms in this country unless they expressly state that they are not able to extend to Northern Ireland?

The reprint will mention the facilities available in Northern Ireland and advise interested persons to get in touch with the Ministry of Commerce in Belfast or the Ulster Office in London.

Is it my hon. Friend's intention to recirculate this pamphlet to the 47,000 firms?

No. It is not our intention to recircularise the 47,000 firms, but there is a reprint of 20,000 copies in the process of being produced. They will contain this new information, and we shall, of course, draw the attention of any other industrialists to the facilities which are available under the Northern Ireland scheme.

Would not the value of these letters and leaflets be very considerably amplified if they were also sent to South African industrialists who are a little doubtful about their own future there and might be persuaded now to come here?

I think that is another question.

asked the Prime Minister if, in view of recent events in South Africa, he will instruct the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations to consider, in consultation with the British Council, the possibility of cancelling the remainder of the Royal Ballet's South African tour.

I have been asked to reply.

Yes, but is the right hon. Gentleman really expecting the House to accept that the Government could not exercise any influence through the British Council or through the Arts Council—as was done in 1956, when the Royal Ballet's visit to Moscow was cancelled at short notice as a protest against events in Hungary? Do the Government approve of these gestures of protest in one direction only, or are they serious in their disapproval of the continuing tyranny in South Africa?

The Government's views have been amply and well expressed by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, and I hardly think it would be appropriate to use the Ballet as a means of making a political gesture, the more so as we understand that the Ballet has been very successfully performed before Europeans as well as non-Europeans. In each case, its performances have been very well attended.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Actors' Equity, which is the profession's trade union, at its very well attended meeting only last weekend, decided that all these tours should be allowed to continue and that Dame Sybil Thorndike, our foremost actress and a great humanitarian, agreed that that should be so, but that actors and actresses going to South Africa should be free to express their opinions? Therefore. would the right hon. Gentleman ensure that complete freedom of speech is given to those who visit South Africa to express their views there?

I am sure that the hon. Member has done a service by drawing attention to the decision of Equity. In relation to the second part of his supplementary question, I cannot give any undertaking about the administration of the law in South Africa. That is not within my jurisdiction. In general, the hon. Member's supplementary question confirms my original Answer, that I do not think it would be appropriate to interfere with the discretion of the Royal Ballet.

asked the Prime Minister whether the speech by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to the Annual Meeting of Wirral Division Women Conservatives at Meols, Cheshire, on Saturday, 2nd April, concerning United Nations policy towards the Union of South Africa, represented the policy of Her Majesty's Government.

I have been asked to reply.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that parts of that speech were good but that parts of it were not so good? Can the right hon. Gentleman say at what point the doctrine of non-intervention in the affairs of a country applies at the United Nations when those internal affairs of that country constitute a threat to peace in the surrounding area?

This matter was most seriously considered by the Government, and I think that the statement made by Sir Pierson Dixon on that occasion is correct, that we came to the conclusion that the Resolution goes beyond the scope of the proper functions of the Council. As to the hon. Member's reference to the speech, I am glad to have part-praise of it from the hon. Gentleman. I think it was a very good speech and explained the situation accurately.

In the case of South-West Africa, over which the Union was given a mandate, would the right hon. Gentleman agree that it cannot seriously be contended that the inhabitants of that area are the domestic concern of the Union only? In view of the very grave events in South Africa, have the Government any proposals to put forward for safeguarding the inhabitants of that mandated territory, and do the Government intend to change the policy of the representative of the Government at the United Nations if and when this subject is raised again?

I answered a series of Questions on this on behalf of the Prime Minister some days ago. I drew attention to the fact that this lies largely within the jurisdiction and present competence of the United Nations. When the matter comes up I shall be only too pleased to give an account of the Government's attitude.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider that the Government's attitude at the United Nations is in a certain degree self-contradictory, since they appear to have not opposed the discussion in the Security Council and, therefore, to have conceded that the discussion was within its competence? Having conceded that, would it not have been better to have given the Security Council the benefit of such a speech as the Prime Minister made in Cape Town—and at home?

Our delegate, on the occasion of agreeing that the matter should be inscribed, made a particular reservation in relation to the actual words of the Charter of the United Nations. I think that what we have done was exactly right in a very difficult situation and that we have made clear how deeply we feel about these matters and equally how strongly we feel that the Charter of the United Nations should be respected.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will invite the Commonwealth Prime Ministers at their forthcoming conference to consider the desirability of a Commonwealth Convention of Human Rights with an appropriate court of adjudication.

I have been asked to reply.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that that will be regarded generally as a very disappointing reply? If the United Kingdom can adhere to a European Convention on Human Rights, why should not we initiate the establishment of a similar convention for the Commonwealth, especially in view of the fact that three self-governing members of the Commonwealth already have included in their constitutions declarations on human rights? Would not this be a very appropriate moment at which to extend this provision generally, as more and more countries become independent?

I do not think that this would fit into the traditional development of the informal character in which the relations between members of the Commonwealth have developed; and, while I understand the sincerity of the views of the right hon. Gentleman, I do not think we can adopt them, nor do I think it would give pleasure to the varied members of the Commonwealth.

Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that recent events have caused grave misgivings about this? Can we rely upon it and be certain that in future Commonwealth relations, as they now stand, will be sufficient protection for Commonwealth subjects? Will he undertake to look at the matter again? If I brought to see him Colonel Draper, who drew attention to this matter in The Times, would he please study the matter once more?

Certainly, if the right hon. Gentleman would bring any of his learned friends or others to see me I should be glad to extend the bounds of my knowledge and education, but I would not be able to subscribe to any idea which would seek to impose on the Government or a fellow-member of the Commonwealth rules of a central court or dictates of any convention.