asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he intends to withdraw from circulation all the old £1 notes as a measure against tax evasion.

It is not proposed to call in the old £1 notes from circulation as suggested by my hon. Friend. But I am advised that most of the old notes which are in active circulation are likely to be replaced in the ordinary course of events within the next eighteen months.

Will not my hon. Friend reconsider this question? It is an old one. Is he not aware, because if he is not he is probably the only person who is not, that there are hundreds of millions of £1 notes up chimneys, under mattresses and in pillows on which tax never has been and never will be paid?

As a result of my hon. Friend's Question, the Inland Revenue considered this suggestion again, which, as my hon. Friend pointed out, is not a new one. The Inland Revenue is still of the opinion that the comparatively small advantage of detecting tax evasion would not justify the immense amount of work involved.

How does the Inland Revenue know that only a small amount is involved, in view of the well-known habit of tax dodgers to keep large sums in Treasury notes hidden under the bed and in other parts of the house? Would it not help to winkle out tax dodgers if the Treasury said that unless all Treasury notes were handed into a bank by a certain date they would cease to be legal tender?

I am sure that the Commissioners of Inland Revenue will take note of the hon. Gentleman's expertise. In fairness, I think it is reasonable to rely on the judgment of the Commissioners of Inland Revenue who have great experience in this matter.

In this connection, would my hon. Friend consider withdrawing the ugly and unpleasing new notes and replacing them with something more worthy of Britain?

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many new and old £1 notes are in circulation; and when he will withdraw the old £1 notes from circulation.

On 6th April, approximately 1,180 million old and 60 million new £1 notes were in circulation. It is not proposed to withdraw the old £1 notes from circulation, but most of those which are in active circulation are likely to be replaced in the ordinary course of events within the next eighteen months.

Will the Minister not say that unless the old notes are banked within the next eighteen months they will cease to be legal tender? Is he not aware that out of the £1,100 million old notes supposed to be in circulation quite a proportion of them are tucked away by Income Tax dodgers?

I have already paid tribute to the right hon. Gentleman's knowledge of these matters [Laughter.] As I said earlier, to be a little more serious, the Inland Revenue did, as soon as my hon. Friend's Question was put down, reconsider this matter, and it also, of course, took into account what occurred in other countries shortly after the war. The Department still feels that it would not really be worth while.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer on how many occasions since January, 1959, the Iron and Steel Holding and Realisation Agency has consulted the Iron and Steel Board, in accordance with the provisions of Section 19 (7) of the Iron and Steel Act, 1953, concerning the grouping or regrouping of any of its subsidiaries.

One, Sir.

Was that in any way connected with the firm of Gjeers Mills Limited, a wholly owned subsidiary of the Agency, which has a factory in my constituency?

No, Sir. The one case concerned a sale by Richard Thomas and Baldwins to the Llanelly Steel Company of a 40 per cent. holding in the Llanelly Foundry and Engineering Company.

May I have an assurance that if and when any proposal is made to amalgamate Gjeers Mills Limited with any other concern early notice will be given to the House? Is the Economic Secretary aware that there is great anxiety in Tees-side generally that there may be an intention to close down this firm making hematite iron, or amalgamate it with a firm operating on the West Coast which would stop the production of hematite iron altogether on the North-East Coast, which we would regard as deplorable?

As the right hon. Gentleman knows, under the Section of the Iron and Steel Act to which he referred, before the Agency can carry out any grouping or regrouping of its subsidiary undertakings it has to consult the Iron and Steel Board. I have no doubt that if that Section to which the right hon. Gentleman referred is involved it will carry out its statutory duties.

As the hon. Gentleman is aware, I know that it must consult the Board, but my anxiety arises from the fact that when another undertaking making hematite iron in my constituency was closed down we got no information about it until three weeks before the event took place.

I do not think I can be expected to answer questions about particular cases which do not arise under this Question.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to what extent the agreement between Her Majesty's Government and Richard Thomas and Baldwins Ltd. for a loan to a maximum of £70 million to the company will affect the rate of progress of devesting the remaining assets which are held by the Iron and Steel Holding and Realisation Agency.

The House has already been informed that it is the Government's intention to proceed with devesting as energetically as possible, but I cannot answer the hypothetical question on the rate of progress which might be achieved.

Will the Economic Secretary give a more forthcoming reply? Here is an asset whose capital structure is greatly affected by the loan of public money. Surely that is likely to have an effect on the timetable of the investing, and should not that effect be fully explained to the House?

At the time when the loan of £70 million was announced to the House the need for the development was not questioned, and the extent to which it may affect the rate of progress of devesting is, I think, a matter of speculation.

Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the workers in industry all over the country, and in South Wales in particular, have played a very active part in the company's great success, and they do not desire to see it denationalised at all?

I do not accept the latter part of the right hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, but I certainly fully subscribe to what he says about the part played by those working in the industry.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what proposals he has received from private financial groups to participate in the equity of Richard Thomas and Baldwin's when the latter company is turned over to private ownership.

The Government have informed the House about their general policy and expectations in the de-nationalisation of steel. I cannot, however, answer specific questions about the current activities of the Iron and Steel Holding and Realisation Agency in relation to possible future operations.

Is it not the fact that, at any rate, one very prominent takeover tycoon has declared a very big interest in trying to get at the rich pickings from denationalisation of State-owned steel, and does not that make absolute nonsense of Government policy? Does the hon. Gentleman really maintain that it is better for the industry that it should be run by financiers and take-over tycoons than by organisations responsible to the community?

The right hon. Gentleman has made his point, but he will probably agree that it would really be most inappropriate if I—or indeed, any Minister—were to comment on the current activities of the Agency in relation to possible future disposals.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that I was concerned not with making a point but with getting information from him as asked for in Question No. 12 and which he has so far not answered? Will the hon. Gentleman state what representations have been made to the Treasury and what bids have been received for this nationally-owned asset when it is turned over to private ownership?

In the debate which we had on 22nd March I said we were hopeful that we would be able to make significant progress in disposals in the course of this year, and I have no doubt that there will be other newspaper speculations in the months to come. I think it would be most inappropriate and, indeed, would prejudice the statutory duty of the Agency if I said any more.

Can the Minister say if the Realisation Agency can dispose of the equity of a company to which this House has just voted £70 million without the Government being consulted?

That is another question. I was asked by the right hon. Gentleman what proposals have been received, and I have said as much as I can on that matter. If the right hon. Gentleman will put down a Question on the other point, I will do my best to answer it.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply, I give notice that we shall return to this subject on another occasion.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) what percentage of the gross national product he estimates will be taken by central Government taxes on expenditure in the present financial year;

Precise figures for the financial year 1960–61 are not available, but it is not expected that the proportion of tax to gross national product will differ much from that for 1959. In the calendar year 1959, central Government taxes on expenditure amounted to about 12 per cent. of the gross national product at factor cost, and total central Government Revenue from taxes to about 26 per cent. of gross national product.

Would my hon. Friend agree that it is highly desirable in the long run, whatever the case may be this year, that the figure given in reply to my second Question should fall below 25 per cent., and is it not the fact that the figure which my hon. Friend has given me shows that it has increased by 1 per cent. this year? With regard to my Question No. 5. is it not a fact that these taxes really represent the Chancellor's contribution to keeping up prices, and, again, whatever the case may be this year, does he not agree that in future years it is desirable that these taxes should come down?

I certainly do not quarrel with the objective my hon. Friend has in mind, but I think it is fair to point out that in the four years from 1948 to 1951, central Government taxes were, on average, 33 per cent. of the gross national product and that in the last four years that figure of 33 per cent. has fallen to 26 per cent.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has yet received any report from the Plowden Committee; and in what form he proposes to communicate to the House reports and recommendations from this Committee.

No, Sir. The Committee will make confidential recommendations to Her Majesty's Government; but, as has already been promised, the conclusions reached by the Government on them will be put before the House in due course. It is too soon to say how this will best be done.

Can my hon. Friend reconcile that reply with the statement made in this House on 16th March by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House, when he suggested that the House should await the Report of this inquiry before the House took further the question of Treasury control? Will he take care that the existence of the Plowden Committee does not postpone or prevent the House discharging its proper function of discussing Treasury control?

I can assure my right hon. Friend we are well aware that this subject of control of expenditure is a matter of keen concern to right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House, but I just remind him that the reason for the confidential status of this Report is simply that the Committee is advising the Government, at least in part, on the way they should conduct their own internal finance. The Select Committee which recommended the further inquiry recognised its partly confidential nature, because it proposed that it should have access to Cabinet papers. I do not think there is any inconsistency between the object of the Committee and the concern felt about Treasury control on both sides of the House.

But will the Financial Secretary—who, I think, is giving a lot of attention to this question—in order to help the fuller Parliamentary control of expenditure, particularly in relation to securing value for money, consider whether it would not be desirable that the House should set aside two or three days every year to debate the Reports of the Public Accounts Committee and the Estimates Committee, where those bear on specific items of continuing expenditure? Does he not feel that acceptance of a proposal like that would enable the House as a whole to play a real part while, at the same time, making the fullest use of the expertise, and very hard work, of the members of the two Committees?

That, of course, is a much wider question than that on the Order Paper, but I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House, who comes into these matters a very great deal, will take note of the right hon. Gentleman's point.

Mr. Swingler.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. As I was very closely connected with the production of the Report on Treasury control by the Estimates Committee, can I ask a supplementary question?

I am afraid not. It is my fault. I am anxious about our progress, which at present is extremely poor.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what annual loss of revenue would result from the abolition of Purchase Tax on pottery.

About £2¾ million.

When the Chancellor considers the concessions he will inevitably make during the Committee stage of the Finance Bill, will the Economic Secretary draw his right hon. Friend's attention to the fact that this tax had been abolished before the emergency Budget of 1955, that pottery is a necessity, and that the Treasury is in possession of evidence which shows the terrible harm that this tax has done to the industry?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, most pottery is now taxed at 12½ per cent. as a result of the reduction made in my right hon. Friend's Budget of last year. I understand that home market sales of pottery last year were the highest in any recent year.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many individuals in Scotland were relieved of farming losses in 1958, under Section 34 of the Income Tax Act, 1952; and what was the estimated amount of such loss.

Nearly 1,000 farmers received relief for losses in Scotland; the aggregate loss was about £1 million.

Does not the Financial Secretary think it a deplorable state of affairs that tax evasion should seem to be quite a thriving industry north of the Border, and elsewhere? Will he ensure that the steps about to be taken in the matter will be completely watertight in preventing this kind of practice?

I have a suspicion that we shall have quite a few hours devoted to this subject later in the season. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that all these matters will be taken into full consideration.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that at a performance of a play sponsored by the Arts Council at Theatre Workshop, Stratford, on 23rd March, a Communist publication was displayed for sale in the refreshment room; and if he will make it a condition of his grant to the Council that its sponsorship be withdrawn from all productions in conjunction with which Communist publications are displayed for sale.

I am not prepared to instruct the Arts Council to exercise political discrimination in the allocation of its grant. I have, however, made inquiries into the incident in question. The publication "Music and Life" was offered for sale without any authority from the management of "Theatre Workshop", who took appropriate action as soon as the matter was brought to its notice.

While thanking my hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask him to bear in mind that this theatre has rather a Communist reputation—[HON. MEMBERS: "Nonsense."]— and would he instruct the Secretary-General of the Arts Council to keep a careful watch on the theatre's activities in future?

Theatre Workshop has, in fact, done some good work, and I can assure my hon. Friend that I am quite satisfied that, in this particular case, as soon as the matter was brought to its notice, it took all the action that could have been expected of it from any part of the House. I would add: do not let us be too much influenced by the tittle tattle that appears in the daily Press, particularly in some sections of it.

Surely, Communist publications are perfectly legal in this country— this is not South Africa—and unless there is some rule against any political propaganda in this organisation, is it not just as reasonable to have Communist publications as it would be to have Tory publications?

I think it is a matter of degree. There are occasions when the most liberal and tolerant of citizens could feel that some Communist publication was not altogether in place. I think that on this occasion the management of Theatre Workshop took the obviously right course.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will ensure that the House of Commons is informed of all proposals to assist private firms from public funds; and that, in the case of large loans, grants or other assistance, opportunity will be given for discussion.

All measures by the Government to assist private firms from public funds are carried out under powers conferred by Parliament. But it would be wrong in principle for the Government as a general rule to publish detailed information about financial transactions which it enters into under these powers with individuals or companies. Apart from other obvious objections to its doing so, general publication of details of such confidential transactions would hamper the execution of the policies which Parliament has approved.

Is this not rather unsatisfactory from Parliament's point of view? Will the Minister not agree that these grants and loans are bound, sooner or later, to be put in the account of the companies concerned and therefore the information will be available to the public? Should not Parliament be informed in advance? Will the Minister cast his mind back to the early hours of one morning when the Leader of the House undertook to inform Parliament if more loans were made under the Iron and Steel Bill. If there is a case under that Bill, should we not also be informed of loans to the aircraft industry?

I will certainly consider what the hon. Gentleman says about the aircraft industry, and I will draw the attention of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House to what he has said with regard to the opportunity for this House debating these matters. But I think that, in general, one must dis- tinguish between general legislation and legislation which is directed to specific firms or companies.

Would not the Minister agree that, though general information is highly desirable, at least in the case of firms invited to set up factories in unemployment areas, too much private detail might deter them from doing what we all want them to do?

Whilst I realise that hon. Members on both sides of the House wish to have as much information as possible, there is, I think, a limit to what we can do if we are to carry out the objective of Parliament.

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will now refer the manufacture of cartridges to the Monopolies Commission for investigation.

New references to the Commission are under consideration and no decision has yet been taken.

When a matter like this is suggested to be referred to the Monopolies Commission, there is inevitably doubt in the minds of producers and consumers. Would it not be better if my hon. Friend could come to a decision as soon as possible to relieve this doubt?

A number of subjects are considered by my right hon. Friend from time to time, and this and many others are some of them.

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will make arrangements with the British Travel and Holidays Association to publish, in addition to their hotel guide, a British equivalent of the successful French guide, "Michelin," with comprehensive and attractively presented information as to hotel and other holiday accommodation, gastronomic facilities, historical information, and other tourist attractions in the United Kingdom.

The British Travel and Holidays Association has already looked at the possibility of publishing a Michelin-type guide for the United Kingdom. I understand that the Association has encountered serious difficulties, but that it has not given up hope of being able to publish a guide of this nature.

Should not the Minister give the British Travel and Holidays Association the greatest encouragement in this matter, because my hon. Friend will be aware that there is a growing demand among prospective foreign visitors to this country for such a publication and that such a publication might well be economic in view of the fact that the Association already has a highly developed information and research service on which it could be based?

The research service would, of course, have to be greatly expanded, and there are substantial difficulties about which I would like to inform my hon. Friend.

asked the President of the Board of Trade when the 450 new jobs in Central West Fife are expected to materialise; and how many of them are expected to be for man, women, and juveniles, respectively.

It is hoped these jobs will materialise over the next few months. Approximately 300 of them will be mainly for male juveniles and the majority of the balance will be for men.

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will take steps to bring to the attention of the 47,000 leading manufacturing establishments circularised on 31st March, 1960, similar details of the facilities for industrial development in Northern Ireland to those which he has undertaken to include in the reprint of the Board of Trade leaflet entitled "Expanding Industry."

I am glad to say that this is not necessary. I am informed that the Northern Ireland Government circularised these firms about a year ago giving them particulars of the schemes of assistance offered by the Northern Ireland Government. The facilities have not altered since then.

Whilst thanking my hon. Friend for his reply, may I ask him whether, if events have changed over the past year, he will agree to bring to the attention of any and every one of the 47,000 firms which he has recently circularised, and which asked the Board of Trade for further information before expanding their businesses, particulars of the many and various facilities and capital and financial inducement and other help which the Government of Northern Ireland gives to new industries coming to Northern Ireland?

The reason for the circularisation of the Board of Trade pamphlet was because there had been a fundamental change in the legislation for Great Britain whereas there has been no change in legislation concerning this matter in Northern Ireland. The position is in that regard unchanged. I think that my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary made reference last week to including reference to Northern Ireland facilities in a reprint of the pamphlet.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what request he has received from the Government of the West Indies for further assistance to the University College of the West Indies, following upon the recommendations of the Cato Committee concerning the future of the college; and what reply he has given.

The University College of the West Indies have been allocated £1 million from the money made available under the CD. and W. (Amendment) Act, 1959. In addition, the Government of the West Indies have sought my approval to the allocation to the University College of £600,000 from the West Indies reserve of colonial development and welfare funds. I have agreed in principle, it being understood that the money will not be called for until the allocation of £1 million has been fully committed by the University College Authorities and until the contributing Governments have agreed to meet the resulting recurrent expenditure.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that that is a highly satisfactory statement which will give great pleasure not only in the West Indies but throughout the academic world of the Commonwealth? Is he aware also that it is most unlikely that any of the money will be wasted, as the record of University College is amazingly good?

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why he has authorised the introduction in the Northern Rhodesian Legislative Council of the Preservation of Public Security Bill, which gives the Governor absolute power over all publications in the territory.

These powers do not exist in normal conditions, and can only be invoked when the Governor is satisfied that a threat to public security exists.

May I welcome the right hon. Gentleman on his return—

He has been setting the people free.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is aware that journalists belonging to all parties and having different racial views have protested very strongly in Northern Rhodesia against this Bill? Will he take steps to see that it is administered in a way which does not mean that there will be any restriction on liberty of writing?

Yes, certainly. That will be watched closely. I am sure that the journalists who protest about this are, to some extent, under a misapprehension because, as I have explained many times to the House, the object of this legislation is to prevent and not to encourage, situations which lead to emergencies. I believe it will have that effect.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will set up an inquiry into the recent disturbances which have taken place in Northern Rhodesia.

No, Sir. There have been no recent disturbances in Northern Rhodesia on any scale which would justify the setting up of a commission of inquiry.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I am referring to the disturbances in the schools in Northern Rhodesia and that the leadership of the United National Independence Party, which much deplores violence, would welcome an inquiry? Is he aware that the worst way to deal with this matter is to close down the schools when the need for education is so urgent and that the best way is to use the means he has adopted in Nyasaland, which have offered a real hope of constitutional advance?

I am afraid I completely misread the Question. I thought it related to the even more recent disturbances which centred round my visit to Northern Rhodesia, but I can meet the hon. Member on the other point he has made, because there have been cases of indiscipline and insubordination which have led to the closure of certain schools and a commission of inquiry is to examine the circumstances which led to that. I am sorry I did not understand the hon. Member's Question.

May I draw attention to the fact that the formulation of the Question on the Order Paper is far removed from the terms in which I first put it down? The first part does not seem to make sense, because the Federal Government have made no approach. I should still like to have an answer to the second part of the Question.

I shall stick to the brief. So far as I am aware, the Federal Government have made no request that the Northern Rhodesdan Government should take over the Copper-belt Technical Foundation. The admission of non-Europeans is a matter for the Foundation to decide.

Surely the whole point about this is that the Foundation wants to give up this responsibility and has asked both the Federal and Northern Rhodesian Governments to take it over for the purpose of opening it up for Africans and whites? The Federal Government will not do so, but say the Territorial Government are not permitted to do so because this is a question of African education.

The Northern Rhodesian Government were asked some time ago to make a grant to provide halls for the Foundation but refused because, as the hon. Member knows, the technical education was not open to non-Europeans. This is a matter which has recently been discussed by the Foundation. All I can say is that I shall study what the hon. Member has said and, if there is any way in which I can help along the lines the hon. Member has indicated, I shall try to do so.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will now make immediate arrangements for the release of Mr. Jomo Kenyatta, Mr. Achieng Oneko and others still under political restriction in Kenya.

No, Sir. The case of each person under restriction is regularly reviewed. It remains the policy that no person will be released while he is a danger to security.

The Colonial Secretary will be aware that the political climate in Kenya has been much improved since his success at the Kenya Constitutional Conference. Is he aware that good will will be still further improved if Jomo Kenyatta is released? [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Will he, therefore, follow his precedent in regard to Dr. Banda and set more people free and so make more people in Kenya happy? Is he aware that in any case Jomo Kenyatta will be released in due course? Would it not be better that he be released before independence so that all the political leaders can adjust themselves to the part which he will play in the political life in Kenya?

All cases are regularly reviewed. The hon. Member has addressed his supplementary question entirely to the case of Mr. Kenyatta. When I was asked this question on my return from Africa yesterday, I made it quite clear that in my view the situation in Nyasaland a year ago is worlds away from the evil nature of the occurrences which took place in Kenya in those years. The situation in relation to Kenyatta is that he is a man who was convicted in the courts and his conviction was confirmed by the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. Although his case is, and will continue to be, the subject of regular review, the Governor does not feel—I fully support him in this—that it would help the situation in Kenya if he were released.

May I ask the Colonial Secretary to address himself to the case of Mr. Achieng Oneko, who was completely acquitted of the charges made against him and immediately rearrested and has been in restriction since that time? Will he see that he, at least, is released?

I will not give an undertaking that he will be released, but I agree that these cases are different for the reasons mentioned by the hon. Gentleman. I know, because I spoke to the Governor only a few hours ago in Nairobi about this case of Achieng Oneko, that he is reviewing every case, including this case and the case of the senior Chief Koinange. I hope to have the results of these reviews fairly soon.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the extent of unemployment in Kenya, particularly amongst those released from detention; and what steps are being taken to reduce and abolish it.

The Kenya Government recently appointed a Commissioner to carry out a survey of unemployment and under-employment in the Colony with the object of obtaining information on which to base remedial measures. Meanwhile resettlement and relief schemes are being carried out in the Central Province to help landless ex-detainees and others.

The Colonial Secretary will have noticed that in the debate in another place recently those noble Lords with experience of Kenya were concerned about this problem, and especially the effect of unemployment among those recently released from detention who felt themselves completely frustrated? Will he take some urgent action to provide economic opportunities for Kenya?

I am conscious of that point. I know that the Kenya Government are also conscious of it and are trying to deal with it by land consolidation and agrarian reform. I believe the report of the Commissioner will be a great help to us in dealing with the matters raised by the hon. Gentleman.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many native patients in the George VI Hospital at Nairobi are casualties due to assaults or woundings by other Africans; how many of these native patients are Government servants; and in how many cases their assailants have been arrested.

The clinical notes on patients at the hospital do not contain the information sought, and crime statistics are not kept on a racial basis.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is considerable anxiety in Kenya owing to the fact that a number of loyal natives have been assaulted recently? Is he further aware that those anxieties are increased by the belief that the assailants are in some cases former Mau Mau detainees? Is he satisfied that everything possible is being done to prevent a repetition of these offences?

Yes, I agree there is anxiety. Naturally, when about 79,000 people who have been in detention are released, which is what has been done over the last year or two, it is not surprising if there is a certain increase in the crime statistics. I have no evidence at all that any Government servants have been made the special target for the sort of assaults mentioned by my hon. Friend, but it is a situation on which I will keep a careful watch.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is now able to state what constitutional changes are proposed in Malta with a view to reestablishing a democratically-elected Parliament.

I have nothing yet to add to the answer which my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies gave on 28th January to my hon. Friend the Member for Haltem-price (Mr. Wall).

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to regard this problem from a new point of view, just as he has the problem of Central Africa? Is it not a scandal that in Malta there should have been no elected Legislature for over two years and that the Governor should just have been governing by decree? Can the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that the report in Malta that it is proposed to have a nominated second Chamber—which would be a retrogression to the past—is not true?

I have not heard of any proposal for a nominated second Chamber. I agree that this is an unsatisfactory situation, and I want to bring the Governor's rule to an end as soon as I can. I hope to be able to give close personal attention to this question of Malta over the next few months.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what submissions he has received from representatives of the Creole community of Freetown concerning proposed constitutional changes in Sierra Leone; and what was the nature of his reply.

The submission I have received came from two members of the Settlers' Descendants Union. They sought complete separation of the Colony from the Protectorate and a separate form of Government for the Colony. I have asked the Governor to tell the two petitioners that I have taken note of their views.

Is the Minister aware that this very small minority of Creoles in Freetown have exceptional facilities for B.B.C. television in this country and in their broadcasts have stated that the people in the Protectorate are pagans and cannibals? Is he aware that I hope he will agree that this kind of malicious and untruthful propaganda will in no way influence the discussions at the Conference?

I agree with the hon. Gentleman. I do not think these representations are at all important, and they will not influence the Conference which is to take place.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, in view of the fact that 78 per cent. of the population is now in favour of the restoration of corporal punishment for crimes of violence against the person and that 74 per cent. is in favour of capital punishment for all types of murder, if he will now reconsider his policy with regard to crime and punishment.

I have seen a variety of analyses of the figures on which my hon. Friend bases his statements relative to the opinion of the population of the United Kingdom on these complex and difficult subjects. I should not be prepared to propose a further change in the law relating to capital punishment until sufficient time has elapsed to enable the effect of the Homicide Act, 1957, to be assessed. As I announced in the House on 28th January, I have referred the question of corporal punishment to my Advisory Council on the Treatment of Offenders and I await its report.

Yes, I know, but surely with the democratic philosophy and faith of my right hon. Friend he feels that the will of the majority must prevail? Surely he agrees with that, otherwise government might as well be handed over to the Opposition, and God forbid that that should happen?

My philosophy is derived as much from John Stuart Mill as is the philosophy of anyone else in this House, but I think we have to mix the mixture a little between a poll of this sort, in which the answers are very varied—some of the conclusions were very different from what some hon. Members think— with the ordinary democratic process by which we are elected to this House'. I am quite ready to study the former and be guided by the latter, but I think that on matters like this we must introduce some small degree of science, and that I am attempting to do.

Will the right hon. Gentleman explain to his hon. Friend that it is not the job of Parliament to follow a privately-conducted public opinion poll, but rather to attempt to educate the public in regard to the facts in this case—facts which I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will agree show that flogging is not a deterrent?

I never mentioned flogging.

It is precisely for reasons like that that I wish to put before the House as soon as I can a considered opinion on this subject. Meanwhile, I think we had better leave the matter as it has been left by this interchange.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what information he has as to the progress the manufacturers of drip-feed oil heaters are making in the modification of unsafe heaters.

I understand that the manufacturers are still working on the problems involved.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I am not referring to the new heaters which may be manufactured but to the progress which is being made in calling in those heaters which are already being used in 3 million homes? Has he any information to give about progress in that respect?

I understand from contact with them, as far as I can, that all the manufacturers are understood to be at work on these problems and are having discussions with the retail trade, that is, between the manufacturers and retail trade. Each manufacturer has his own particular problem. I would draw the hon. Lady's attention to the fact that the new British Standard was issued as recently as 11th April and they are having regard to that in their approach to the appliances already issued.

Can the Home Secretary say whether these adaptations will also be available for imported heaters not manufactured in this country?

That is one of the topics we have in mind in deciding what we shall do on the receipt of the Molony Report and on what necessary or possible legislative steps to take to make the present situation a little more satisfactory.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware of the dangers to children and others, resulting from the use of large polythene and other plastic bags; and what steps he is taking in the matter.

A considerable amount of publicity has already been given to this danger and my right hon. Friend is watching the position.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that there have been numerous tragedies in the United States as a result of which I understand that many dry cleaners are discontinuing the issue of these bags? Will he take whatever steps he can to make the public aware of these dangers?

I am aware of what has happened in the United States. For that reason, representatives of manufacturers in this country recently came to the Home Office to discuss this risk, and they are continuing their investigation. So far as possible, my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister of Health has encouraged considerable publicity in this matter.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what time elapsed between the application of Kou Teh-Lou, lately a cook at the Chinese Embassy, for political asylum and its being granted.

An application for permission to stay in this country was received on the 1st March and granted about a week later.

May I congratulate the Home Secretary on the speed he has shown in giving asylum to this lad, thus upholding the traditions of this country? Will he have conversations with the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations and point out that two British citizens who fled from the terror of South Africa into the Commission Territories had to wait a fortnight before it was announced that they would be given asylum? Ought not the Commonwealth Relations Office to follow the expeditious example of the Home Office?

These matters are not on all fours because I have to follow a different practice in the United Kingdom. The rules and regulations have been known for a long time. There are very great difficulties in connection with the law relating to Protected Territories which are not the entire responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, but he has given his mind to the subject. I think he has shown as great humanity as he could under present circumstances.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware that on Thursday, 7th April, Mr. Ronald Segal and Mr. Oliver Tambo, two South African citizens who had escaped to Bechuanaland, were still uncertain if they would be allowed to come to the United Kingdom as political refugees; and what steps have been taken urgently to communicate to them an assurance that this will be permitted.

As I indicated in reply to Questions on the 4th April, there is no difficulty about the admission to the United Kingdom of British subjects or British protected persons.

Does that assurance apply to these two particular cases? Could the right hon. Gentleman make it quite clear that they can come here, since a week ago they were still unsure and saying that their applications for permission to come here—or whatever steps they had taken—had not been replied to?

The practice and rules in regard to British subjects are well known. I shall go further and say that if a British subject were to arrive without a valid passport or travel document, we would ask him to produce such evidence as he could to prove that he is a British subject. That, I think, would cover the case as best we can.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has now received the Report of the Peppiatt Committee.

Yes, Sir. The Report has now been published.

I have seen the Report which, as the Home Secretary is aware, recommends that there should be a levy on bookmakers amounting to between £1 million and £1¼ million a year and proposes that the levy should be statutory. Will the Home Secretary tell us whether he proposes to introduce Amendments to the Betting and Gaming Bill, recently issued from Committee, to give effect to these recommendations? What are his intentions about that Bill on Report?

The position is that we have just published, at 11 a.m. today, the Committee's Report. I should like to express our gratitude to the Chairman and his Committee for the speed with which they have produced the Report. I am also aware of its conclusions. I am not in a position to make an announcement at present, because I wish to obtain a certain amount of reaction to the Report. That is the object of publishing it. I should also like hon. Members to study it. I should not like to come to a conclusion until I have been able to assess a little better opinion on the receipt of this Report.

asked the Prime Minister if, in view of his discussions with the Prime Minister of Southern Rhodesia during his recent official visit to that Colony and of the importance of the request being made by the Prime Minister of Southern Rhodesia for the protective clauses affecting Africans to be removed from that constitution, he will arrange to continue his discussions on this issue with Sir Edgar Whitehead during his forthcoming visit to the United Kingdom, and advise him that Her Majesty's Government will not agree to the request except with the full agreement and approval of the Africans concerned.

The purpose of Sir Edgar Whitehead's forthcoming visit is to continue the discussions with my noble Friend the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations begun in November, 1959. As regards the second part of the Question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave him on 18th February, to which I have nothing to add.

Is the Prime Minister aware that we warmly applaud the assurance which he has given to the Africans in Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland that the protection which they enjoy from the United Kingdom will not be withdrawn except with their agreement? Is he further aware that the Africans in Southern Rhodesia are equally concerned that the protection which they enjoy from the United Kingdom should not be withdrawn? Will he give an asurance that there will be no back-room agreement with Sir Edgar Whitehead behind the backs of the Africans, who value this protection?

All these matters will be taken into careful consideration. These circumstances are not exactly the same, although I can see that they are to some extent similar.

Has the Prime Minister refreshed his memory with the terms of the Letters Patent under which Africans are subject to our protection in respect of

"any conditions, disabilities or restrictions to which persons of European descent are not also subjected or made liable"?

All these are very large matters which, as the hon. Member knows, are under review and discussion during the whole of this coming year. I think it would be wiser for me not to go into detail on them today.

While agreeing with the Prime Minister that this is a very large matter, surely this is all the more reason why the House of Commons should know what the Government's attitude is. Will he invite Sir Edgar Whitehead to bring with him some indication of the views of those over whom this House has thrown the mantel of its protection since 1923, so that the House may be apprised of their approach to this problem?

All these matters will be borne in mind. These arc preliminary discussions, and I think that it would be wiser to let this constructive year in African history develop. The Government are responsible to the House and they will not shrink from their responsibilities in these matters.

If this constructive year in Africa is to develop fruitfully, would it not be as well to give the Africans in Southern Rhodesia the reassurance which they require in this matter?

I will refer to what I said on 18th February, when I said that

"in the event of any change being made in the Constitution of Southern Rhodesia, the interest of Africans would of course be given full weight."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 18th February, 1960; Vol. 617, c. 1417.]

asked the Prime Minister what discussions he had with the President of the French Republic during his recent visit to London regarding the political problems of the African Continent.

My talks with President de Gaulle were confidential, and it would not be proper for me to say what subjects were or were not discussed.

Is the Prime Minister aware that since France has committed a large part of her N.A.T.O. forces to Algeria, inevitably Britain and the other N.A.T.O. Powers become identified in the eyes of the Africans with France's colonial war? Does he not agree that the great problem of reconciliation between the European and African races in Africa is, like peace, indivisible? Will he, therefore, take advantage of the good will created by President de Gaulle's visit to press on the French Government that they should give recognition to African nationalism in Algeria in the interests of Europe as a whole?

I should hardly like to be drawn into a discussion of the Algerian problem when the Question I was asked was what I had discussed with the President of the French Republic and my reply was that my discussions were confidential.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will discuss with the heads of Governments of the United States of America, Russia and France at the Summit Conference means of increasing help to under-developed parts of the world.

As my hon. Friend knows, there is no formal agenda for the Summit Meeting, but if this subject were raised I should certainly be ready to discuss it.

asked the Prime Minister if he will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the text of his address to the South African Parliament in Cape Town on 3rd February last.

No, Sir. I am gratified by the interest that has been shown in this speech. But the procedure suggested would be neither usual nor, I think, appropriate.

Is the Prime Minister aware that it would be helpful to many people if an official reprint of this speech were readily available? Is he further aware that some of us would like to send a copy of the speech to the South African cricket team when they come here and to the secretary of the M.C.C., especially after yesterday's raids on the homes of the leaders of the non-racial South African sports associations?

I do not think that I should be acting in accordance with precedent if I were to publish, through the machinery of the House or the Stationery Office, the speech which I delivered, but if the hon. Member, who has been so gracious to me over this matter, would like it, I will see whether I can send him a copy of the speech.

May I suggest that it would facilitate what my hon. Friend intends to do if the Prime Minister put a large number of copies in the Library.

I am anxious not to break tradition in this matter. As far as I know, no precedent of this kind exists.

Is there not, by strange coincidence, a publishing house which bears the same name as that of the Prime Minister? Would he not consider asking it to print the speech, because I think there is a wide demand for copies of this magnificent speech?

I am not sure to whom the copyright belongs. I will make inquiries.

It is surely very usual, when a speech of this kind is made, for copies to be placed in the Library. I think the Prime Minister will find that there are many precedents. Will he look into it?

If that is so, I will, but I cannot promise to bear the cost of printing the speech myself.

How many copies of the speech may I have?

asked the Prime Minister what further information he has received about citizens of the United Kingdom and British protected persons arrested recently in South Africa and detained without trial or charge; and if he will endeavour to secure their release by making direct representations to the Prime Minister of the Union.

I would refer the hon. Member to the statement made yesterday by my hon. Friend the Minister of State for Commonwealth Relations. So far as representations to the Prime Minister of the Union are concerned, the High Commissioner saw the Prime Minister on this subject last week before the attempt on his life and he has since been keeping in close touch with Ministers in the South African Government.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Minister of State yesterday steadily refused to answer repeated questions urging him that Her Majesty's Government should make a direct demand to the South African Government for the release of these people? He refused to do that. Whether the right hon. Gentleman communicates with the Prime Minister or, at present, with the Deputy Prime Minister, cannot he take a somewhat more forthright attitude than the Minister of State took yesterday?

If the Minister of State refused yesterday, I should be very foolish to consent today.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a good deal of feeling on both sides of the House on the matter and that it is felt that we should take firm action to ask for the release of these people, in particular of one of my constituents, Miss Stanton? Is he further aware that it is extremely difficult to get information out of South Africa? I have a letter in my pocket in reply to a cable from constituents in which the writer of the letter, a British subject in South Africa, dare not put his address and dare not refer to the matter of Miss Stanton at all? It is up to the Government to make representations.

That is the purpose of the communications which the High Commissioner is having with members of the Government.

Will not the Prime Minister respond to what is the unanimous view of the House of Commons? Is he aware that yesterday, when his hon. Friend made his statement, the whole House indicated by its attitude its disappointment with that statement? Is he further aware that these two United Kingdom subjects have been held in detention for two weeks without any charge being preferred against them and with little, if any, opportunity of even getting legal advice? Will he not speak out now as Prime Minister in the name of the whole country?

The object which I think we ought to follow is to try to see what help we can give. By far the best way is by making representations through the High Commissioner to the Ministers concerned.

Can the Prime Minister not even ask that Miss Stanton and the others should be released on bail?

I have every confidence in the High Commissioner, who I am sure will do all he possibly can. and I am sure that this method is the one most likely to obtain what we hope to achieve.

Will my right hon. Friend at least say that there is no intention that this matter will drag on indefinitely? It has been going on now for two weeks, and this House is rightly jealous of the rights and privileges of those who are entitled to its protection.

Yes. I hope that it will not drag on. We shall do all that we can.

Has the Prime Minister observed that, when a Canadian journalist was arrested, the Canadian Government made a strong and public protest, which resulted in his almost immediate release? Does not the Prime Minister think in this case, where these two British subjects have been imprisoned without charge for fourteen days and where the High Commissioner is still unable to find what charge is to be made or may be made against them, that the time has come for a public demand for their release?

I will do ail that I can, but I do honestly feel that this is the best method of approach in this particular case.

Is the Prime Minister aware that these people are held completely incommunicado? What would normally have happened is that a number of people who have written to Members of this House, including myself, might have got in touch with these two persons themselves and might have sent all the legal help which they were able to. None of this can now be done. Will he not seriously consider that that makes it absolutely imperative that he should act on behalf of all those who have written to Members of the House?

I continue to say that I will do all that I can, and I am quite sure that it is not our intention to let this matter drag. We shall try to bring it to a successful conclusion.

We cannot debate this now.

I have a short statement on business to make.