Mr. Kershaw.

I no longer wish to move the Amendments standing in my name.

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster if he is aware of the public concern caused by the reduction over the last several years of the output of the British Broadcasting Corporation overseas and European services; and what steps he intends to take to reverse this tendency.

I have been asked to reply.

I did not ask the question to which that purports to be an answer. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that between 1947 and 1959, according to Mr. Henry Klein, in his chairman's address to the annual council of the Association of Broadcasting Staff, there was a startling decrease of 24 per cent in the B.B.C. overseas and European services and a comparable increase on the Russian, Chinese and European satellite side of more than 500 per cent.? What steps are the Government taking to remedy this startling deficiency?

There is a steady increase in the external services. I, too, have seen what Mr. Klein said, but he admitted that from 1951 to 1959 expenditure on these services had gone up by 32 per cent.

Is the hon. Gentleman giving a fair picture when he says that there has been a steady expansion of these services? Taking the facts since the war, there has been a steady and marked decrease in the services of the B.B.C. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, owing to rising costs over which the B.B.C. has had no control, it has had to cut its services in the current year?

As far as I am aware, there has been a steady increase in the external services, both European and overseas. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] If, however, I am wrong about that, I will check with my right hon. Friend.

In view of the fact that the hon. Gentleman has given an extremely unsatisfactory reply, I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Chancellor of of Duchy of Lancaster what is the cost to public funds of promoting the distribution overseas of British books and periodicals, films, sound broadcasting material, and television broadcasting material, respectively.

I have been asked to reply.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that these figures suggest that the Government are not taking full advantage of the enormously increased demand for television material overseas? Will he note that much of the television material exported commercially does little or no good in creating a good picture of Britain? What steps will the Chancellor of the Duchy take to encourage the distribution overseas of television material about Britain of a non-commercial kind?

The hon. Gentleman would not expect me to answer that now. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] I will certainly see that my right hon. Friend does study this problem when he comes back this week.

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether he has now selected a list of low-priced books, other than text books, for his Low-Priced Books (Export) Scheme; and what proportion of the expenditure on the scheme it is estimated will be spent on this category of book.

I have been asked to reply.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this is almost exactly the first anniversary of the date on which the Chancellor announced his programme and told the House—told me in answer to a supplementary question—that 2 million books would be distributed by the end of this year? Is not this going much more slowly than it ought? Is it not time that the right hon. Gentleman came back and got cracking on this?

I am sure that my right hon. Friend will get cracking when he gets back this week.

Where is he?

I think my right hon. Friend did explain to the hon. Gentleman the magnitude of the task which the Committee was undertaking, but the time it has taken in selecting titles has not been wasted, for many practical arrangements with the publishers and distribution agencies have been dealt with during this time.

Will the hon. Gentleman take note that, while the right hon. Gentleman is a notably modest and self-effacing personality, his return to that Dispatch Box will be warmly welcomed on this side of the House?

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what plans he has to ensure that the books provided in the Government's scheme of low-priced books for overseas shall be written in a simplified English vocabulary and syntax, easily understandable by readers to whom English is a second language.

I have been asked to reply.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that both the Soviet Union and China are exporting books which are extremely carefully and skilfully written in simple English suitable for people who learn English as a second language? Will he make sure that we do not send out books which may suit publishers but which, perhaps, do not meet the needs of the people who read them?

Yes, of course. I think the hon. Gentleman may have seen the letter from Mr. Norrington in The Times in which he said that this point was raised at the very first meeting of the Committee and had been borne in mind ever since.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that many bookshops in Yugoslavia are flooded with American-produced books written in turgid and most verbose English? Will he see that when we eventually get round to distributing books in those countries they are written in concise, clear, good English?

Yes, certainly. As the hon. Gentleman will know, we have just concluded an agreement with Yugoslavia.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance in how many cases the National Assistance Board instituted prosecutions for false declarations in connection with claims for assistance in each of the last five years; what proportion of false declarations this represented in each case; and on what basis the choice of cases for prosecution is made.

As regards the first part of the Question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave him on 30th May. I am informed by the National Assistance Board that there are no records available to show the proportion of false declarations which result in prosecution. I am also informed that in deciding whether or not prosecution is appropriate both the circumstances and background of the person concerned and the Nature and seriousness of the offence are taken into consideration; in particular, prosecution is not undertaken unless there appears to have been a clear intention to defraud.

Is the Minister aware that, after study of the figures with which he provided me some weeks ago, there is a feeling that it is deliberate policy of the National Assistance Board to institute a certain number of prosecutions each year? Can he either confirm or deny that? Will he consult his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland to see what is the basis on which farmers are prosecuted who falsely get ploughing up grants? I understand that in Scotland only one was prosecuted and imprisoned as a result.

As regards the first part of that supplementary question, the grounds of decision to prosecute are those I gave in my main Answer, and there is no policy to keep the numbers up to any particular figure—quite plainly. As far as the second part of the question is concerned, the figures I gave—I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman was complaining about them or not—show, of course, that the number of prosecutions in Scotland was down in the last three years.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that ill-judged prosecutions—and to my mind at least one has happened in Scotland in the last few years—have a detrimental effect on the reputation of the Board at the time when we are trying to build up its reputation for humanity?

The hon. Gentleman knows very well that the decision whether or not to prosecute in these and analogous cases is an extremely difficult and delicate one. The Board is liable, quite rightly, to be shot at if it does not do so in appropriate cases where public money has been obtained by fraud. The Board acts very conscientiously and, though I would not claim infallibility for the Board, I do think it adopts a very sound approach.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will state the total number of allowances being paid in Scotland by the National Assistance Board; and how many of these are in supplement of retirement pensions.

At 29th March, 1960, about 193,000 weekly grants, of which 76,200 were supplements to retirement pension.

Does the Minister not agree that the figures for the applications for supplementation of pension indicate that the basic pension is far too low?

I cannot accept what the hon. Gentleman says. It has always been felt in this House that the National Assistance Board was there to help people with the minimum means, and both sides of the House have supported this.

Does the right hon. Lady really say that it was the anticipation of this House that National Assistance should play the part which it is playing today in connection with retirement pensions?

The hon. Gentleman is as well aware as I am that one of the reasons why these figures are higher is that the grants given under this Government are much higher than those allowed previously.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will state how many of the registered unemployed in Scotland in receipt of National Assistance were refused aid when they first applied.

I am informed by the National Assistance Board that this information is not available.

The information available to me is that there is delay sometimes of as much as a fortnight, three weeks or a month, which constitutes hardship to the individual. I suggest that it is time to review the time lag between the beginning of unemployment and National Assistance relief.

I think it is quite reasonable that many cases would not automatically qualify. In the main, when men become unemployed they will have at least a week's wages, sometimes with the addition of lying time and often with rebate of Income Tax. I do not think it is unreasonable that there should be a certain span, after they have had a substantial period of well-paid employment, before they become eligible for National Assistance.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will state, as a percentage of average weekly earnings, the sickness benefit payable to an adult female worker at April, 1958, 1959, and 1960, respectively.

38·1 and 36·5 per cent. Information about earnings in April, 1960, is not yet available.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that When the 1960 figures are available they will reveal that there is now quite a substantial case for an increase, since those people have a much lower standard of living than when fully employed? If there is any tendency for the percentage to decrease, in relation to real wages, I think the Minister ought to consider increasing the sickness benefit.

Even the lower figure I gave, 36·5 per cent., does not compare badly with the comparable figure for October, 1951, which is 28·9 per cent.

Would the right hon. Gentleman not agree that that is not the real year for comparison? The last increase was in 1958, and I think he should bring his mind from that point up to today and not go back to 1951, which is unreal as a comparison with present-day conditions.

If the hon. Gentleman wishes to contest the adequacy of the benefits by arguing over these percentage figures in relation to earnings, he must be prepared to face the whole picture and not a couple of carefully selected years.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance (1) how many of those registered as unemployed in Scotland for 26 weeks or more are in receipt of National Assistance;

Figures are not available precisely in the form asked for, but I am informed that an inquiry made at employment exchanges showed that in Scotland, on 1st February last, National Assistance was being paid at employment exchanges to 6,864 persons who had been unemployed for 30 weeks or less, to 20,573 persons who had been unemployed for more than 30 weeks, and to 7,329 other persons whose duration of unemployment was not ascertained for the purposes of this inquiry.

Does the hon. Lady not think that these figures show that there is need to raise the benefits under the National Insurance Act, particularly the unemployment benefits? In view of the figures for long-term unemployment, will she not draw the attention of the President of the Board of Trade and other responsible Ministers to these figures in order that they may get on with the job of providing some work for these people in Scotland?

The more recent figures show a decline in the number of unemployed. It has also been generally accepted by both sides of the House that long-term unemployment may more suitably gain supplementation from National Assistance and as a State charge rather than be a long-term charge on the National Insurance Fund. I do not think that the hon. Member is unaware that if benefits were to go up—and the period of full insurance benefit is not ungenerous, for the basis is 180 days and with added days can go up to 492—obviously contributions would have to be raised to match.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will estimate the aggregate of the rent element of allowances paid by the National Assistance Board in 1956 and 1959, respectively.

For the reasons I gave the hon. Member on 30th May, 1960, no, Sir.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance approximately how many retirement pensioners are still receiving modified pensions under the provisions of paragraph (2) of Part I of the Fifth Schedule to Statutory Instruments, 1948, No. 612, and subsequent regulations; and whether he will take steps to bring their pensions into line with those in like circumstances who attained retirement age subsequent to 4th July, 1953.

A separate figure is not available for this particular category, but the total number of people receiving retirement pensions at a lower rate because they entered insurance late in life from employment excepted from the contributory pensions scheme is between twelve and thirteen thousand. I have no proposals to make about these pensions.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the time has come to call it a day on the restrictive basis for paying pensions to this class of insured persons? As the right hon. Gentleman knows, those who reached retirement age after 1953 enjoy the full rate of pension where their contributions entitle them to do that under the normal arrangements. This class of pensioner who reached retirement age before 1953 is at a disadvantage. The number of these pensioners is small and the cost of bringing their pensions into line with the others would also be small. Cannot the right hon. Gentleman exercise generosity and remove this long-standing anomaly?

As the hon. Member knows, this is part of the transitional arrangements between old and new schemes made under the 1946 Act. It applies only to those who came on to pension between 1948 and 1953. The hon. Member also knows, but did not say, that in the nature of things they have occupational pensions in addition to the National Insurance pension. I do not think that we can disturb the arrangements made by his right hon. Friend twelve years ago.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many certificates have so far been granted by the Registrar of Non-participating Employments; and how many employees they cover.

I am informed that the Registrar has so far issued 35 certificates covering approximately 3,400 employees.

Is not this figure very small indeed having regard to the fact that the date of commencement of the new scheme is as near as April next? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that anxieties have been expressed in different quarters at the delay on the part of employers in putting in their applications for exemption from the new scheme to the Registrar? Has the right hon. Gentleman any disquiet about this? Can he inform the House whether things are going according to plan, and can he say whether we are likely to have a serious congestion of applications just before the commencement of the scheme?

As the hon. Gentleman is aware, the actual issue of a certificate following application is the last stage of the process. The procedure—with which the hon. Member is familiar in another connection—of informal consultation with the Registrar prior to the submission of the formal application is working out, and up to last Friday informal consultation had taken place in respect of 1,447 schemes.

Has my right hon. Friend any reason to vary his original estimate of 2½ million persons ultimately being in non-participating employment? In the light of experience so far of this scheme, can my right hon. Friend say whether he proposes to take any steps to simplify the extremely complex procedure involved in obtaining a certificate for contracting out?

I have no reason to modify the estimate given in the White Paper "Provision for Old Age". As to the procedure, bearing in mind that inevitably it cannot be simple if it is to be fair, I do not think it is working too badly, and I think that employers are understanding it.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what research is being conducted by his Department into occupational deafness, with a view to its possible prescription as an industrial disease.

None, Sir, directly, but I am, of course, in touch with the research work on deafness now being carried out by the Medical Research Council. The hon. Member will also be aware that my noble Friend the Minister for Science has appointed a Committee to examine the nature, sources and effects of the problem of noise.

Is the Minister aware that there are already in the United States and some European countries schemes for compensation for occupational deafness? Is it not a fact that the right hon. Gentleman's Department receives claims under the Industrial Injuries Act from people who are made deaf at work and that, at the moment, those applications can succeed only if there has been an accident and that his Department has to reject many claims which are in fact the result of genuine cases of deafness due to conditions at work?

I do not think comparison with European schemes helps us much, because our Industrial Injuries Act is on a basis markedly different in many respects from most Continental schemes. As the hon. Member knows, before a disease can be brought in under the Act it must comply with the provisions of Section 55, and I have no reason to believe at present that deafness does that.

asked the Minister of Power what is his most recent estimate of the amount of electricity to be supplied from atomic energy during the next five years, and ten years, respectively; and to what extent this represents an increase or decrease over the previous estimate.

asked the Minister of Power what contribution to the country's energy requirements, in terms of coal equivalent, can be expected by nuclear power stations in the foreseeable future.

The Government have recently reviewed the civil nuclear power programme in consultation with the Electricity Authorities and the Atomic Energy Authority, and the outcome is summarised in a White Paper which I have today presented to Parliament and which is now available in the Vote Office.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I have only just received a copy of the White Paper? Would he agree that it is rather sad that this cutback in the programme of the Atomic Energy Authority, a young, modern, public industry doing a great job of work, has had to take place?

The hon. Gentleman's supplementary question seems to go a little beyond the Question on the Order Paper. This is a very important subject. The hon. Gentleman has asked me various questions about the White Paper. I think it would be more convenient for the House if we discussed the White Paper at another time perhaps, as there will be an opportunity on another occasion.

While very few of us will have had an opportunity to read the White Paper yet, may I ask my right hon. Friend to assure us that any suspicions that the principle of our having the cheapest, most economic and most efficient sources of fuel has been dropped are unfounded? Can my right hon. Friend assure us that that principle is still safeguarded, or are suspicions that the principle has gone by the board justified?

The whole reason for the change which I have announced this afternoon is that the point at which nuclear power generation breaks even with conventional power generation will be rather further in the future than was first expected.

In view of the content of the White Paper, would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that it underlines the fact that we should have more detailed economic studies carried out into the whole of our fuel and power position? Would he not further agree that until these studies are undertaken he should, in consultation with the National Coal Board, call a halt to the closing down of pits, which at the present time—emphasise "at the present time"—are being termed uneconomic?

That goes rather beyond the hon. Gentleman's Question. However, perhaps I may give the specific figure for which he asks in his Question. The figure of a nuclear power capacity of between 3,500 and 4,000 megawatts would require the equivalent of 11–12 million tons of coal.

Would not my right hon. Friend agree that this cut-back has been made necessary by the very remarkable technical improvements in the capital costs of conventional stations, but would he not also agree that it is important that the design teams brought into being under the nuclear power programme are kept in being? Can he give some undertaking that research contracts will be given in respect of at least some of the teams, because in due course we shall need nuclear energy in this country?

I will certainly take notice of what my hon. Friend said. It is most important that we should continue to get experience in building these stations so that we shall be ready to build them on an increased scale when the break-even point is reached.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what loss will now be incurred by the Atomic Energy Authority and how it is to be covered?

I am not sure that I get the point of the hon. Gentleman's question. I do not think there will be a loss at all.

But the right hon. Gentleman has read the White Paper surely? I have had a copy for only two seconds, but I have read that there will be a loss to the Atomic Energy Authority. As the right hon. Gentleman has apparently not had a chance to read the White Paper, perhaps he will examine the question of the loss to the A.E.A.

I will re-read the White Paper for the tenth or twelfth time. The figure which the hon. Gentleman has in mind is perhaps the saving in capital expenditure. Perhaps he has not yet had long enough to read the document.

Paragraph 8 says:

"There will however be some loss to the Atomic Energy Authority."

Yes, there will be a slight loss, and, therefore, the net saving in capital expenditure would be a little less than £90 million.

It is clear that we cannot debate this subject at Question Time.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The right hon. Gentleman said that there would be an opportunity for him to answer questions on the White Paper, which forms the basis of his answers today. As it is customary when a White Paper is presented to the House for the Minister to make a statement at the end of Questions, would it not be possible for the right hon. Gentleman to make a statement on this very important subject at the end of Question Time?

That question is very properly addressed to me, but not in the expectation that I would answer it. We are retarding the acceleration of Questions.

asked the Minister of Power what consultation he had with the National Union of Mineworkers before appointing the successor to Sir James Bowman as chairman of the National Coal Board.

None, Sir.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that most of my hon. Friends really appreciate the appointment of my right hon. Friend the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) and that we wish him success and distinction in carrying out the duties of the post? However, does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate the magnitude of the appointment? Does he not appreciate that when making an appointment like this it is as well to consult the people who are connected with the industry, not with a view to accepting their opinion but so that we may be assured of full co-operation?

I understand that the acting president of the National Union of Mineworkers has himself said that the union has never been consulted about the appointment of the chairman and that it did not question the right of the Government to appoint a successor to Sir James Bowman without consultation. I therefore felt that I had discussed the possibility of the right hon. Gentleman's appointment, which I am delighted to find gives the 'hon. Gentleman pleasure, adequately enough with others in the industry who would be fully in possession of the views likely to be held by the National Union of Mineworkers.

asked the Minister of Power what plans he has for reorganising the coal industry; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Minister of Power to what extent his Department has considered issuing a general direction to the National Coal Board conveying the Government's proposals for a break-up of the coal industry into smaller units.

I am anxious to ensure that the industry's organisation is suited to its needs, and I hope to have the new Chairman's advice on this in due course.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether he has any plans in mind to decentralise the industry? Will he also say whether he has in mind or is prepared to introduce any proposals to give divisional boards the power to fix their own prices? Is he further aware that such proposals will meet with the most bitter opposition from the mineworkers?

It is a little early to say that the proposals will meet with opposition—[HON. MEMBERS: "They will."] —until the proposals are known. I have at present no plans to put before the House. The only reason for which changes might be made would be to secure the maximum efficiency of the industry, which I should have thought was the objective of the whole House. It would be entirely wrong to go into any details before an examination was begun, but I would certainly tell the hon. Gentleman that I am fully conscious of the importance of the kind of considerations mentioned the other day by his right hon. Friend at his Press conference.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that if this break-up takes place or is even mooted by him, with district agreements coming into operation as they were pre-war, the National Union of Mineworkers will undoubtedly be responsible for a national coal stoppage. Also, will he not take this opportunity to deny emphatically that there is any truth at all in the idea that there are `ny possibilities of decentralisation or breaking up the mining industry?

I will give very great weight to the considerations which have been mentioned, but I think the House would be wise to await the plan before coming to a judgment on it.

Perhaps I might join in the good wishes expressed to my right hon. Friend the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) on undertaking this important post in the industry with which I have had many years of association. While I agree at once that any step that can be taken to improve the organisation will receive the co-operation, I am sure, of both sides of industry, may I, on behalf of all those who wish the industry well, ask the right hon. Gentleman, having regard to the views held by some of his hon. Friends, to bear in mind, in case any attempt is made to go back to district agreements, district prices and district competition, that the one thing the industry needs is to put the past behind it and be able to look to the future? What is suggested would be a return to the thirties, and that would be calamitous for the industry and the nation.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his remarks about his right hon. Friend. I have twice this afternoon said that the particular matters which the right hon. Gentleman has in mind will be kept very much in my mind when I discuss this subject, and I would certainly like to repeat it again to the right hon. Gentleman.

asked the Minister of Aviation, as representing the Minister for Science, whether, in view of the memorandum presented to the Prime Minister on behalf of the British Interplanetary Society by the hon. Member for Bosworth, and of the further information supplied to the Minister for Science subsequent to 16th May, he is now able to announce the Government's decision with regard to a British space programme, to be implemented with or without European and Commonwealth co-operation and rising to an annual cost of £20 to £30 million within five years from the start of such a programme.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he will make a further statement about the prospects of developing Blue Streak as a satellite launching rocket in co-operation with the French and West German Governments.

I have no further statement to make at present.

Is the Minister aware that in a memorandum drawn up by a group of distinguished scientists and applied engineers, which I sent to the Prime Minister last February and which, I believe, was circulated to all the Ministers concerned, it was very powerfully argued that any British space programme must depend on our own launchers or we would otherwise be deprived of all the advances in that technology? Will he give an assurance that we will not make our space programme dependent on United States launchers, since if we do so we shall lose all the commercial by-products of any space programme worthy of Great Britain?

I am, of course, keenly aware of the great potentialities of a British space research programme. Nevertheless, I think it is just as well carefully to examine all the factors before we commit ourselves to a very important and long-term decision.

Can the right hon. Gentleman enlighten us a little further about his reply to my Question? After his recent visit to the Continent, he told the House that there were prospects of developing Blue Streak as a satellite-launching rocket, in co-operation with the West German and French Governments. Is he aware that since then statements have appeared in the Press saying that the United States Government have put their foot down on this project because it would mean divulging to those Governments certain secret devices developed in the Atlas rocket, so that his proposal is now quite impossible? Will he confirm or deny that?

I also read the same report in the newspapers, but that is all I know about it. There has been no contact between the British and American Governments on this issue. The first thing is for us to decide whether we think it right to go ahead with a space programme and then we can face any difficulties or any possibilities for co-operation with foreign Governments. I think that there would be considerable interest in those quarters.

Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the Wilgress report to O.E.E.C. which strongly supports the idea of cooperation among European countries in very expensive research of this kind? Is not one of the reasons for that cooperation the fact that the sum of money which would have to be spent by ourselves could be better spent on some of our backward industries which are at present bolding back our export performance?

That is a question of weighing relative advantages.

Is it a fact that we are in discussion with the French Government jointly to develop Blue Streak as a space launcher? At some future date, would it be possible, if that development takes place, for such a space launcher to be converted to a missile?

If we go ahead, we are converting a missile into a space-launcher. Whether we could re-scramble or unscramble the egg, I do not know. Obviously, the technique of rocketry applied to one has an application to the other, but the programmes would not be identical. I told the House that I had discussed co-operation with foreign Governments, with the French and German Governments, recently, and they appeared to be considerably interested in the idea of co-operation. It is no more than an idea, because it is first for the British Government to decide whether they think it right to go ahead with a programme of this kind before we discuss co-operation with European Governments. However, I would like to make it quite clear that before making any decision on this matter we shall closely consult the Australian Government, who are specially concerned with this matter.

Is the Minister saying that the Government have not yet made up their mind to spend about £20 million to £30 million a year, at a time when wE are so prosperous, to keep Britain ahead in this vital new field?

What I am saying is that I am not yet in a position to announce any decision.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he is aware of the breakdown of air traffic control at Idle-wild on 21st May last, with delays or immobilisations of British aircraft for an hour or more; and if he will draw the attention of the International Civil Aviation Organisation to this consequence of their adherence to the VOR-DMET system as against a British hyperbolic system of navigation which would safely provide a much higher frequency of take-off and landing.

The only delay of which I am aware occurred on 20th May. In this case the Boeing 707 aircraft of B.O.A.C. was No. 24 in the take-off queue at Idle-wild and suffered a delay of 1 hour and 7 minutes. I do not think any conclusions can be drawn from this incident on the merits of the VOR-DMET system.

Is it not a fact that on this occasion—on the date of which I stand corrected—the delay to aircraft was such that by the time an aircraft got to the front of the queue it might have had to go back to refuel? Was that not a direct consequence of inadequate traffic control facilities, which are lacking there but which we have in this country? Will not my hon. Friend advocate the introduction of a far more sophisticated system? Does not the opinion of international airline pilots support that view?

As I said, I do not think that any conclusions can be drawn from this incident about the merits of the two systems of navigation, but we believe that in areas of dense traffic something more advanced than the VOR-DMET system will be needed. It is also true that the international pilots' organisation favours an area coverage system with pictorial presentation.

asked the Minister of Aviation what are the comparable costs to the Exchequer of the installation, and the maintenance, of a VOR and DME beacon system in this country, and of a hyperbolic area-coverage navigation system.

It is not yet possible to estimate the cost to the Exchequer of the VOR/DMET stations that will be required as a result of the recent decision of the International Civil Aviation Organisation. The Decca hyperbolic area coverage system is already being commercially operated in this country and reliance upon this system would naturally involve little additional outlay.

Could my hon. Friend give the House some idea of which would be the cheaper system to operate?

Too direct a comparison of cost is difficult because one has to have regard to the extent to which the existing systems are already developed. As I have said, we believe that in an area of high traffic density the Decca system is not only more efficient but cheaper.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he will make a statement about the recent visits to the United States of America of delegations from his Department to discuss the revision of the agreement that regulates the air services between the two countries.

The purpose of these meetings was to review the schedules of air routes operated by British and American airlines under the Bermuda Agreement of 1946. Although considerable progress was made, it was not found possible to reach full agreement. The remaining points outstanding are now being considered by both Governments.

Is it possible for the Minister to indicate—if not now, then in a statement published in HANSARD—what progress has been made and to what extent interchange of traffic has been freed by these discussions? Will he not agree that the present situation is most unsatisfactory and that there are far too many restrictions which are damaging to the public interest and to any prospect of a move forward in this matter? Has he the full support of the American State Department in this problem? Is it not a fact that it is the American operators, working with the Civil Aviation Board, who are holding up progress?

The right hon. Gentleman has asked me a great deal. The meetings were confidential, but I think that I can say that a draft agreement on traffic in the Caribbean area was reached and that we have suggested to the American Government that that agreement should be put into effect without waiting for other outstanding matters to be settled

asked the Minister of Aviation how much money has been spent on developing and making the Bloodhound missile; and what are the future plans for this missile

About £45 million has been spent to date on developing and proving the various Marks of Bloodhound and their directly associated radars. It would not be in the public interest to give the production expenditure, since this would enable an estimate to be made of the numbers on order. An advanced version is being developed which will offer important advantages in range, height and speed over that now in service.

Is not this yet another case of the Government spending scores of millions of £s on a weapon which is useless against either missiles or supersonic bombers?

No, Sir.

asked the Minister of Aviation what proposals he has received for the construction of a new hotel at Prestwick Airport; and if he will give details of the estimated design, size, and cost.

No definite proposals have yet been received.

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that that Answer confirms the view of a growing number of people in Scotland that he and his right hon. Friend regard Prestwick as merely a staging post between New York and London? If that be the case, does he think that that is the proper way to treat the increasing number of visitors who will be coming to and using Prestwick as a result of the introduction of the big jets? Can he tell me why it is not possible by next summer to have a modern, up-to-date hotel at Prestwick Airport?

I do not realise any such thing. I do not think that it is true. We have made arrangements for the provision of a site for the hotel. The existing hotel will continue in use at least until June, 1963.

asked the Minister of Aviation what further progress has now been made with the Blue Steel, the British stand-off bomb.

I have nothing to add to the information given to the hon. Member on 25th May.

Can the right hon. Gentleman explain why the Minister of Defence misled the House in the Blue Streak debate by referring to Blue Steel as being the bomb now being fitted, when it will not be ready for years? Can the right hon. Gentleman say how long before 1965 it will be before it is in service? Or is it intended to go on beyond that date, as it has now been discovered that Skybolt cannot be fitted to Mark II Victor bombers?

The hon. Gentleman should address questions about the Minister of Defence's speech to the Minister of Defence. I do not accept the interpretation which he has put upon it. His Question has nothing to do with the Minister of Defence's speech. It is about progress being made with Blue Steel. The hon. Gentleman has had experience of a Service Department and he knows that it would be quite improper for me to give any dates of when new weapons are to come into service. It is a very good rule to leave foreign intelligence services to do their own work.

asked the Minister of Aviation in view of the heavy increase in passenger and freight traffic at the Leeds-Bradford West Riding Airport, if he will make an immediate financial grant to the appropriate authority to bring about the necessary improvements to the airport.

No, Sir. As my right hon. Friend informed the hon. Member on 16th May, he cannot say Whether financial aid from the Exchequer would be justified until the Airport Joint Committee has provided further information about its proposals.

Does the hon. Gentleman appreciate that there has been a tremendous increase in passenger traffic in the last few months and that this warrants some immediate improvement of the airport? This airport is the only one for Yorkshire and he should at least give some encouragement to it.

It is true that the traffic has grown, but it is still not outstanding. We are only too anxious to give all the encouragement we can when, as I say the Airport Joint Committee gives us the further information which we requested.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he will make a statement about appointments to the Board of British Overseas Airways Corporation.

During the last few months three Members of the Board of the British Overseas Airways Corporation, including the deputy chairman, have retired, either as a result of the termination of the period of their appointment, or through ill-health.

In making these appointments, why did the Minister have no regard to the needs of the North of Scotland, particularly North-East Scotland, and appoint to the Board somebody who is conversant with those needs? Will he reconsider the appointments in order to deal with the needs of the North and North-East of Scotland?

There is a wide geographical dispersion, though that was not one of my considerations. One of the new members was born in Australia.

asked the Minister of Aviation what progress he has made in his consultations with the Airline Corporations and the Minister of Transport regarding the delays which take place when clearing passengers from inward flights at London Airport; and if he is yet able to state his plans for improving the situation.

I am investigating the particular incident about which my hon. and gallant Friend wrote to me last week, and I will communicate with him as soon as possible. The consultations with the Airline Corporations and the Ministry of Transport, to which I referred in answer to a question by the hon. Member for Stockton-on-Tees (Mr. Chetwynd) on 2nd May, relate to a different matter, namely, the journey time between the Airport and Central London.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the incident to which I referred is only one of many? Is he aware that at peak hours passengers frequently take up to an hour to get through bageage and Customs, and that even now the facilities for domestic routes—for passengers from Scotland, Manchester and Ireland—are quite inadequate? Has he seen that today's Evening Standard stated that 500 passengers were held up this morning? Is he aware that this whole set-up at London Aiport is a terrible advertisement for Britain? Will he set up a committee to look into this and overhaul the whole system so as to expedite the arrival of passengers?

I cannot accept my hon. Friend's strictures in their entirety, but there is certainly a problem to be tackled as the growth of traffic increases. We certainly want to obviate delays at any time, including the peak period. There is clearly a special problem to be met in the peak hours.

Will the hon. Gentleman accept from me that, however bad it is at London Airport, the situation at Idlewild is so terrible that, by comparison, what we do here is a good advertisement for us?

Comparisons are odious, so I had, perhaps, better leave them to the right hon. Gentleman.

asked the Minister of Health if he has yet received any recommendations by the Standing Advisory Committee on the care of the teeth and dental health education; and, in view of the disturbing situation with regard to dental decay in children, what plans he has for dealing with the problem.

The independent Standing Committee on Dental Health Education has the continuing function of guiding and co-ordinating the activities of all the agencies concerned with this subject, and is doing so. I gave an outline of the measures being taken to deal with the problem of dental decay in children in my reply to the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross) on 7th December, 1959.

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman accept that the deterioration in the standards of children's health is very serious? Is he satisfied that the steps which he proposes will deal adequately with the problem?

There is certainly a great problem, but, as the hon. Gentleman knows, we have many measures in hand, and I hope and think that in due time they will suffice for the problem.

asked the Minister of Health what provisions for consultation with other bodies regarding the appointment or reappointment of members of hospital management committees are included in the scheme submitted by the North-East Metropolitan Regional Hospital Board, under Section 11 (3) and (4) of the National Health Service Act, 1946; and if, in view of the concern caused by the decision not to reappoint to the Ilford and Barking Group Hospital Management Committee two members, of whose names he has been informed, and the fact that this decision was taken without consultation with the committee, he will, in accordance with Section 11 (5) of the Act, direct the Board to submit a new scheme providing for such consultation, in accordance with the intention of the Third Schedule, Part II, of the Act.

The answer to the first part of the Question is "None, Sir": such provisions do not fall to be included in schemes under Section 11 of the Act, since they are suitably enacted by Part II of the Third Schedule. That Schedule provides that before making appointments to fill vacancies in the membership of a hospital management committee the regional hospital board shall consult the committee. I am informed that the statutory requirement was complied with on this occasion. Consequently, no action on my part is called for.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that there is, therefore, a clear conflict of evidence on this matter, and that the two ex-members concerned have been categorically informed by officials of the Committee that there was no consultation in this case? Will he look into this matter again?

I understand that before filling the vacancies the Board sought the Committee's suggestions, and that the Committee suggested the reappointment of these members. It was, therefore, consulted, but consultation does not necessarily imply acquiescence in the proposition put forward by the party consulted.

asked the Minister of Health whether it is now his intention to admit to National Health Service hospitals healers who claim to cure disease by super-normal means for the purpose of their administering treatment to patients therein.

asked the Minister of Health what guidance he has given, or proposes to give, to hospital management committees regarding the admittance of members of the National Federation of Spiritual Healers into hospitals for the purpose of treating National Health Service patients; and how many management committees permit these activities at the present time.

I have not given guidance to hospital management committees, as I consider on present advice that the visiting of patients, is a matter which should be left to the hospital authority's discretion, in the light of the views of the doctor in charge of the particular patient who has asked for the visit. While I do not know the practice of individual committees, they are generally aware of my view.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware, however, that the Federation of Spiritual Healers are making extensive claims in this matter and are saying that they are entering hospitals to give treatment by permission of the regional hospital boards? Does not my right hon. and learned Friend agree that, if this is so, it is a matter for his decision and not one to be left to the regional hospital boards? We look to him for guidance and a decision in the matter.

I have no responsibility for any claims made by this Federation or any other body. There are two requisites here; first, that the patient must ask for any such visit before it can be contemplated, and, secondly, that the hospital authority must exercise its discretion with due regard to the views of the doctor in charge of the case.

Has the Minister seen the view expressed unanimously by the British Medical Association at its annual conference, condemning the introduction of these healers into hospitals? I do not want to express a view one way or the other about the merits of the Federation, but does not the Minister think that this is a matter in which he should give guidance to hospital authorities rather than leave the decision to individual authorities? Is he aware that these healers are now reported to be present in 50 per cent. of the hospitals run by management committees?

I have seen recent Press reports about the proceedings of the British Medical Association, but I have not yet received any representations following therefrom. As for general guidance, if I am right as to the factors governing these cases, it must always ultimately be a matter for local decision, in the light of those factors. Therefore, general guidance, beyond what I have already said, would not appear to be appropriate.

This is an important matter. Did I understand the Minister to say that a regional hospital board can make a decision in favour of these visits but that a doctor can refuse only in a specific case? Can a doctor refuse to have a spiritual healer attending any of his cases on the ground of principle?

The question does not arise in the first place unless and until the patient concerned asks for the visit. That having been done, it is a matter for the discretion of the hospital authority whether or not the visit will be sanctioned. In coming to that decision the hospital authority will give due weight to the opinion of the doctor in charge of the case.

As a matter of religious liberty, if someone in a hospital wants a chap to come and pray over him, why should not he be allowed to have him?

The hon. and learned Member has put the issue with his characteristic gift for over-simplification. I am not out of sympathy with what he says, but clinical matters are also involved, and that is where the view of the doctor comes in. I am certain that with a commonsense and compassionate application of the principles to which I have referred justice can properly be done in each of the circumstances, but according to the local considerations involved.

Is the Minister aware that thousands of spiritualists regard this as a matter of religious liberty and feel that just as a Catholic is entitled to have his priest so is a spiritualist entitled to have the benefit of the spiritual 'healer's help? In view of the ignorance of this subject shown by my hon. and learned Friend, will the Minister consider initiating, at his own leisure, an impartial inquiry into the validity of the claims of spiritual healers?

That would take us considerably further than the matters with which we are specifically concerned in these Questions. I am quite ready to look further into these important matters, but I doubt whether we shall get beyond the position that I have enunciated, of leaving it to the discretion of hospital authorities, taking account of the two basic considerations to which I have referred.