asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what are the approximate working costs of building societies as a percentage of their turnover; and if he will make a statement.

I am informed by the Chief Registrar of Friendly Societies that in 1959 management expenses of the building society movement as a whole amounted to 14s. 10d. per year for every £100 of mean mortgage balances. I do not think that it would be appropriate for me to comment.

Would not my hon. Friend agree that, on that figure, the building societies are providing a wonderful social service to the country at a remarkably low figure?

I certainly agree with my hon. Friend that the overwhelming majority of building societies are certainly performing a most valuable national service.

Can the hon. Gentleman say to what extent the costs of building societies and the charge on mortgages to their clients are going to be raised owing to the appalling decision announced this morning?

That is not for me to answer.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will now state when he proposes to complete the denationalisation of the steel industry.

I regret that there is nothing that I can usefully add to the statements which my right hon. Friends and I have recently made about this matter.

As there are still ten companies valued at some £40 million in I.S.H.R.A., will not my hon. Friend press on with this matter, since it is now seven years since the Iron and Steel Act, 1953, was passed?

I have said before that it is the Government's hope that within the lifetime of the present Parliament the Agency will complete its duty of substantially returning the industry to private enterprise. I might add that we are very hopeful that conditions will be such that the Agency will be able to make significant progress during the course of this year.

Have not the Government yet learned that it would be better for this industry to be held in public hands as a great national asset?

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what representations he has had from the House authorities about the provision of a copying machine for the free use of hon. Members.

I assume that the hon. Member is referring to the provision of special paper for the copying machine in the Fees Office which is already available for the use of Members. Hon. Members are already allowed to draw free supplies of stationery from the Serjeant at Arms stores, up to a limit of £8 per annum. My right hon. Friend is proposing to raise this limit to £10 per annum, as from the 1st October next, so that Members may if they so desire also draw free of charge a reasonable quantity of the paper required for this machine. A notice about this will be circulated in the Whip.

Is the hon. Member aware that his assumption is entirely wrong? I am referring not to free paper but to the provision of a copying machine, a matter which was raised with his right hon. Friend on 24th May by my hon. Friend the Member for Swindon (Mr. F. Noel-Baker), who pointed out that at present hon. Members are involved in great cost by having to pay 6d. a copy for the use of the present copying machine in the Fees Office. Is he aware that my hon. Friend said that we wanted additional machines made available free of charge and that the right hon. Gentleman said that the matter would be considered?

If the hon. Lady makes further representations on the matter, I will, of course, receive them. I must say that I have tried to answer what I thought was in the minds of hon. Members, and I hope that the announcement which I have made today will be helpful, at any rate to some hon. Members.

If the Government really intend to take up this stingy and pettifogging attitude, will the hon. Gentleman use his influence so that I am allowed to lend a copying machine to the House for the free use of hon. Members, together with paper, and to install it so that he can watch how it works and how it is used and then consider taking the thing over at the beginning of next Session?

I think that we want to keep a sense of proportion about this matter. A copying machine is already available for the use of hon. Members and we are increasing the amount of free stationery which hon. Members can use on the copying machine, so the hon. Member will agree that there has been some progress.

Does the hon. Member's answer mean that in future no charge will be made to hon. Members for the use of the copying machine in the Fees Office for which a charge is made at present?

rose—

Order. We must get on.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what would be the cost of installing a central dictation system in the House for the use of hon. Members.

The cost of a central system of 20 machines such as the hon. Member suggested on an earlier occasion would be about £2,000 for installation and £20,000 per annum for operation.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the usual practice of business firms is to enter into a hire contract with the supplier and that the cost of such a hire contract, I am informed, would work out at about £6,000 a year, including maintenance. Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that it is worth having at any rate a trial run with the installation of a few sets of this system to see whether it might solve the problem of hon. Member's heavy secretarial costs?

I think that this question raises fairly large issues about the financial privileges of hon. Members. The Select Committee of 1954 did not recommend free secretarial services, and although I would like to consider the suggestion, it raises much wider issues going beyond what one can deal with in answer to supplementary questions.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that modern devices which facilitate the recording and dissemination of ideas very often result in less thought being given to their formulation?

That is what might be called a pemmican utterance.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will consider the extension of the repayment of post-war credits to all persons who are officially recognised as severely disabled.

There are serious difficulties about this suggestion, but I will keep it in mind.

Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that it is contrary to the intention of the Chancellor and of Parliament that persons like Mr. Walton, whose case I have submitted, should not be able to get their postwar credits, although more severely disabled than many who are in the categories announced by the Chancellor? As these persons are classified at the employment exchange as severely disabled, are they not a definable category in the same way as other pensioners?

I understand the force of the argument, but we took very good care when we considered which categories should be included this year on both hardship and administrative grounds. It is not an easy question. I cannot add to what I have said today, but I assure the hon. Member that the matter will be constantly borne in mind.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what progress has been made towards the building of a national theatre on the South Bank of the Thames.

My right hon. Friend is still discussing certain aspects of this issue with the Arts Council.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that he gave me a reply of that description on 11th February? In view of the change in the general climate, has there not been a change in the financial climate as well since that time?

The answer I gave on 11th February is still true. It is an extremely important decision. As the hon. Member knows, we have a new chairman of the Arts Council. This is a matter in which it would be better for the Government to keep the House in a state of slight impatience rather than make a premature decision.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in view of the unsatisfactory state of the balance of payments, the small rise in the gold reserves, the recent increase in the West German Bank rate, and the consequent unsettling effect on the value of the £ sterling, what steps he proposes taking to maintain its stability.

A healthy external position is closely linked to a sound balance in the internal economy. As I said in my Budget statement, our purpose is to ensure that

"our policies are adapted to changing circumstances."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th April, 1960; Vol. 621, c. 45.]

I thank the right 'hon. Gentleman for that statement. Is he not aware that the step he has taken this morning in raising the Bank Rate to 6 per cent. reveals his continuing friendly attitude towards the moneylenders? Why does he continue to disregard the excellent proposals of the Opposition about the selective control of imports, which would keep the balance of payments healthy, help and not paralyse local authorities, and also prevent the fluctuations in Bank Rate which upset industry, and particularly those hon. Members who represent industry and who sit behind him?

The answer to the first part of the hon. Gentleman's question is that we believe that the Labour Party policies to which he referred would have precisely the opposite effect in practice. The object of all the steps I have taken is to maintain the economy in balance and to keep off inflation. In general the economy today is in a very healthy state, and I mean to do my best to keep it so.

How can the Chancellor say that the economy is in a healthy state when the gilt-edged market is at its lowest level almost within recorded memory, When exports are failing to rise as much as imports and when there are long delivery dates for important materials, for instance, to British Railways? After all these years of experience and the Radcliffe Report, is not the right hon. Gentleman yet aware that this over-reliance on the monetary weapon simply means penalising local authorities and people building houses with the help of mortgages, and is also inimical to private and public investment? Will not the right hon. Gentleman move into the modern age and try to produce more up-to-date methods of dealing with the situation?

The right hon. Gentleman is speaking in a spirit of extreme envy. He knows perfectly well that he is very envious of the management of the economy which has resulted in high production, a high level of employment and a stable price level for more than two years.

Is the Chancellor aware that his statement that the level of public expenditure will be restrained in the coming year will be greatly welcomed by many people, not only in this House but in the country as a whole? Is he aware that many people believe that the rise in the Bank Rate would not have been necessary if he had been able to restrain Government expenditure this year?

Is the Chancellor aware that nobody envies a Chancellor who has got himself into such a mess that he has to have a 6 per cent. Bank Rate so early in the season when perhaps a worsening of the situation gives him little room for manoeuvre in the summer and autumn? Secondly, since he has failed to answer the question put by my hon. Friend, is he aware that our complaint is that in failing to control some excrescences of private expenditure, particularly in regard to private luxuries, speculation in land, and the rest, the Chancellor always takes what is for the Tory the easy way out, and that is jumping on essential public expenditure by local authorities?

What I know is that steps are much more effective in avoiding possible risks and dangers if they are taken in good time.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what have been the financial effects to date of the restrictions he recently imposed on hire-purchase transactions.

It is too early yet to assess accurately the effect of these restrictions.

Apart from the unfortunate victims who are being sacked as a result of deliberate Government policy, is it not fairly obvious that when our economy is precariously balanced on a knife edge the deceptive prosperity of last October was just another piece of election trickery on the part of the Tory Party?

On the contrary; people who had never had it so good last autumn are having it still better today, over the nation as a whole. It is true that with our economy there is comparatively little room for manoeuvre, and that makes it very important that steps either way should be taken in time.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will make a statement on the stage which negotiations with the Common Market have now reached.

Discussions between the Common Market countries, other members of the O.E.E.C., the United States and Canada, took place in the Committee on Trade Problems in Paris on 9th-10th June. The Committee set up a study group to examine the way in which reciprocal tariff concessions could be achieved and to seek solutions to immediate trade difficulties in particular products. The Committee also decided that it would discuss the long-term aspects of the trade relations between the European Economic Community and the European Free Trade Association.

Has my right hon. Friend's attention been called to the farsighted broadcast by President de Gaulle to the French people on 1st June? Will my right hon. Friend take the statement of political, economic and social aims stated there for the European Economic Community as the basis for discussions between us, the French and their colleagues in the Common Market?

I have read President de Gaulle's statement with very great interest. I am quite sure that the United Kingdom and our partners in the Europan Free Trade Association will be very glad to enter into negotiations with the members of the European Economic Community on the basis of that statement.

Does not the Chancellor agree that, although we want to seize any initiative which is proffered in this very difficult matter, there is something of a gap between what the right hon. Gentleman called the far-sighted announcement of President de Gaulle and the rather less than far-sighted approach of some of his negotiators? Is not this one of the main difficulties which the Chancellor and the President of the Board of Trade are having to face?

I agree with the first part of the right hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, namely, that a solution depends upon the good will of all concerned and a willingness to compromise on both sides. With that willingness to compromise we in the European Free Trade Association—as we made clear after the Lisbon meeting—have no doubts that solutions can be found.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when the Treasury adopted the practice of demanding estimates of expenditure two years before the money was needed by spending Departments; and whether he will publish such estimates.

The practice of calling for estimates of Supply expenditure by Departments for some two years ahead was initiated by the Treasury in 1949. The studies currently in progress on the subject of control and management of Government expenditure will cover the question of the use of longer-term appraisals of the likely course of that expenditure. Until these studies are completed, I think that we must keep an open mind on the question of the publication of such forecasts.

Has the Chancellor considered the very interesting remarks made by the Comptroller and Auditor General at the Conference of the Institute of Municipal Treasurers? Does he realise that the House is in a real diffi culty in understanding and controlling the mounting Government expenditure which is now taking place unless it is given an opportunity of knowing about these long-range estimates, as I may call them, in good time?

I am aware of the Comptroller and Auditor General's remarks. I would only say that we are very anxious to do everything we can to ensure that the House has the fullest reliable information that can be made available to it so that it can exercise proper control.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, since the purchasing power of money has fallen to one-third of its pre-war value, and the price of the £2,000 million 3½ per cent. War Loan has fallen from over par to its lowest ever of 60½ per cent., thus depriving holders of nearly 40 per cent. of their capital, and about 80 per cent. of the real value of their investment, what new steps he proposes to take to improve the value of all trustee securities; and if he will make a statement.

Ultimately, the maintenance of the value of all fixed-interest securities depends upon the avoidance of inflation. In this the Government are determined, as recent events have shown, to play their part. In the short term, fluctuations in market values of fixed-interest securities depend upon the movement of the level of interest rates.

Since the higher Bank Rate produces so many social evils, cannot inflation be checked by making money scarcer rather than dearer? [HON. MEMBERS: "Reading".] I am reading something that is important. Is there no other way of making money scarcer than by increasing the bank special deposits, which cause banks to have to sell gilt-edged and therefore depress the market still further? Finally, is it not true that there is no hope for the holders of trustee stocks until the Government really cut expenditure, so that we are a net saver of money and start to reduce the National Debt? When is that happy day going to come?

My hon. Friend will hardly expect me to answer all the questions he has asked in the short time available in Question and Answer. I assure him that the object of the increase in the Bank Rate is to effect stability in the economy and therefore, in the long run, to help exactly the people that he has in mini more than any other section of the country. That is the whole object of the exercise, and nothing else. Therefore, I cannot agree with him that an increase in the Bank Rate has the net effect of imposing social hardship on our people. When it is used effectively its net effect is precisely the opposite.

But is not the whole trouble due to the fact that the Government have left themselves practically no weapon of control except a higher interest rate and, therefore, that whenever we have a balance of payments crisis the Government's only remedy is to slow down investment, both public and private?

I do not agree with the right hon. Gentleman.

Then why is the Chancellor raising the Bank Rate?

In my opinion, the effect of this increase in the Bank Rate will not be seriously to affect the present level of investment expenditure in industry. Investment expenditure at present has very great momentum, and I think that that will continue. As for the more important projects of industrial investment, I think that they will continue to go forward.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that the electricity boards are unwilling to sell electricity block storage heaters for use in domestic premises because of the high rate of Purchase Tax they attract; and if he will reduce the rate of tax, so that electricity boards may make this facility available in homes.

All domestic electric heating appliances are taxed at the standard rate, which is 25 per cent.; the right hon. Member's suggestion would introduce discrimination where it does not now exist.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this new form of domestic heater cannot exist until per mission is given by the Treasury for it to be sold for domestic purposes? At the moment, the industry is threatened that if these are sold for domestic purposes the Purchase Tax charge will be applied to the industrial storage heater as well. Is not the sensible thing to do at least to allow this cow to come into existence before we kill it. We may be able to milk it for Purchase Tax later, but at the moment there is nothing in existence, because industry cannot sell these excellent heaters for domestic purposes.

There is no restriction by the Treasury on the sale of this equipment.

Further to that—

I thought the right hon. Gentleman was rising to give notice that he would raise the matter again. If not, I am afraid I have called the next Question.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the still continuing loss of foreign currency earnings and the long-term damage to London as an international financial centre, he will now reconsider his previous refusals to allow again the use of foreign importers' drafts.

I regret that I cannot add anything to the reply I gave to my hon. Friend on 2nd February.

Does the Chancellor recall that on that date—now some months ago—he said that he had in mind the possibility of making this change back to what the situation was before the last crisis? Can he therefore give any indication whether what he has in mind will be translated into action? Secondly, has he had any expert advice—including advice from the Bank of England—which supports him in his attitude?

Responsibility here is clearly mine. To follow the course recommended by my hon. Friend would lead to a deferment of foreign exchange receipts by the United Kingdom, and that consideration at present outweighs the comparatively small additional earnings that would accrue.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what has been the percentage fall in the price of 3½ per cent. War Loan since October, 1951.

Thirty-one per cent.

Is it really in accordance with Government policy that these enormous losses should be inflicted on investors in this stock, many of whom are quite small? Will the Chancellor now tell us precisely what he hopes to achieve by this further rise in the Bank Rate, which must mean still lower gilt-edged prices?

I have already explained that my object is to ensure a continuing balance in the economy and a continuing stable price level. Those two objects, if achieved, are the very best service that can be rendered to holders of Government stocks.

When is the Chancellor going to resign?

That is a different question.

Surely the doubling of the special deposits by the banks must compel them to sell more gilt-edged stock. It must. The Midland Bank today is just on the verge of 30 per cent convertibility. The doubling of these special deposits must cause the gilt-edged market to go down still further. Is there no other way of protecting holders of trustee stocks?

My hon. Friend had better wait to see how it works out.

On a point of order. I beg to give notice that even before this disastrous decision the Opposition had decided to approach the Government with a view to having an economic debate to discuss the seriously deteriorating economic situation. In that connection, as the result of this morning's decision the case for a debate is even stronger. Will the Chancellor use the interval between now and the date of that debate to reread the Radcliffe Report?

Without the semblance of reproof to the right hon. Gentleman, I would point out that the time has come when I must appeal to all hon. Members not to usurp the time of the House at Question Time by giving verbal notices.

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will introduce regulations under the appropriate Weights and Measures Acts or Merchandise Marks Acts to ensure that accurate measures of the contents are clearly marked on cans of beer.

I think that it would be preferable to deal with this matter in the Weights and Measures Bill which is now in preparation.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that some brewery companies print the words "Two-glass size" on cans of beer, but that when they are emptied they are found not to contain a glass and a half? Is he aware that this is only one example of misleading labelling? How much longer must we wait before anything is done to protect the public against this kind of swindling?

I do not know that I accept the word "swindling", but I share the hon. Member's interest in this matter and I agree that the situation is not satisfactory as it stands. But it would be better to bring this and other similar matters together in one Bill. This is now practically ready, and I hope that it will be presented in the next Session.

asked the President of the Board of Trade how many new jobs were provided in the seven crofting counties in 1959; and how many it is expected to provide in 1960.

I am aware of approximately 2,000 new jobs in 1959 and, on present estimates, nearly 700 new jobs in 1960.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is most unsatisfactory? Is he further aware that the Crofters Commission in its latest report has said that, in spite of all that is being done, there is no likelihood of any in-surge of employment in the area? In view of this, will he drop some of his doctrinaire prejudices and consult the Secretary of State for Scotland with a view to introducing some public enterprise work into the area?

In fact, the latest figures show that the number of unemployed in this area has been falling while the number of the totally insured population has been rising, so progress is being made. But I quite agree that further progress is necessary.

asked the President of the Board of Trade what representations have been made to him from petroleum companies and from motor trade associations on the suggestion, made in the last annual report of the Monopolies Commission, that oil and petrol distribution should be referred to the Commission for inquiry; if he will list the companies and associations concerned; and if he will make a statement.

Since the Annual Report by the Board of Trade for the year ended 31st December, 1959, I have received two letters on this subject: neither was from a petroleum company or a motor trade association. I have, however, seen advertisements in the Press on this matter. I have nothing to add to my hon. Friend's Answer of 2nd June.

May we take it that the petrol companies have not shown any eagerness to have their operations publicly examined? In view of the comment in the annual report to the President, did the right hon. Gentleman take note of the fact that when the oil companies reduced the price of petrol a few days ago they all reduced the price of the same grades by precisely the same amount at the same time? Is not that at least prima facie evidence of collective price fixing in contravention of the Restrictive Trade Practices Act, and, in view of all the discussions that are going on, is not the President of the Board of Trade failing in his duty if he refuses still to ask the Monopolies Commission to make this examination?

There is a difference between price leadership and price fixing. We are considering further references to the Commission, but I cannot make any statement yet on what they will be.

In view of the very unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall try to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the President of the Board of Trade what are the personnel and programme of the Working Party set up to examine whether the Convention establishing the European Free Trade Association conforms with the provisions of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade; and what is his estimate of the bearing this examination will have on Scottish trade and industry.

The Working Party made a report on the Stockholm Convention to the Contracting Parties to the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade who have agreed to put the subject on the agenda for their next Session, due to begin on 31st October. The countries represented on the Working Party were Australia, Austria, Brazil, Canada, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, France, the Federal Republic of Germany, India, Israel, Japan, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Pakistan, Sweden, Switzerland, the United Kingdom, the United States and Uruguay. This G.A.T.T. examination is not concerned with the particular matters to which the hon. and learned Member refers. I have no doubt that Scottish trade and industry will benefit from our membership of the E.F.T.A.

Does the President realise that the last part of his Answer is quite inadequate? Can he say whether this Convention will in any way improve Scottish trade and industry, which already is suffering from Government's policy and the breaking of Government promises made at the last General Election? Is not it time that the Government carried out some of those promises to bring trade and industry to north-east Scotland?

I have a little difficulty in detecting any connection between the supplementary question and the hon. and learned Gentleman's original Question, but in our view the general effect of the Outer Seven agreement, as we might call it, will be beneficial to Scottish trade.

Not on the shale oil industry.

asked the President of the Board of Trade what consultations his Department has had with industry about discharge of labour due to recent restrictions on hire-purchase trading.

None, Sir.

Did the President notice that Messrs. Hoovers released 400 workers in Scotland, 300 in Wales and only 100 in London, where there are many alternative types of employment available? Will the right hon. Gentleman recognise that there is an obligation upon him in cases like this to see that if there have to be releases of labour they are made in a sensible fashion?

It is difficult to go into individual cases without knowing all the details, but this is probably a case more for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour.

At least the President will agree that, whatever the precise merits of the case, there is an obligation on his Department to consult the firms in these cases?

I do not think we can consult them until they approach us. But I hope that all firms will do their best when they have to declare redundancies to see that it is done in areas where there is more work available rather than in areas of high unemployment.

asked the President of the Board of Trade (1) whether he is aware of the offer of the Calico Printers' Association to purchase the shares of the United Turkey Red Company, Alexandria, Dunbartonshire; and, in view of the recent loan of £400,000 under the Development Areas Treasury Advisory Committee to the United Turkey Red Company, what steps he is prepared to take to ensure the object of the Loan, namely, to provide employment in an area of high unemployment, will be achieved;

The loan agreement made between Her Majesty's Government and the United Turkey Red Company does not require the approval of the Board to an offer for the purchase of the company's shares. It does not and could not in practice contain conditions forcing the Company to continue to provide employment at its works. But I am aware of the need for employment in the Dumbarton area, and I hope that, whether or not the offer by the Calico Printers' Association for the shares is accepted, employment will continue to be provided at these works.

Will the President agree that the only purpose of this loan from the Government to the United Turkey Red Company was to provide work for the people of Alexandria? If the takeover bid takes place, may I have an assurance from the right hon. Gentleman that he will consult the Calico Printers' Association to ensure that work will be continued in that factory?

I will certainly look into the legal point. I do not think the effect of the agreement is as suggested by the hon. Gentleman. We have been in touch with the Calico Printers' Association and pointed out that the Government very much hope that nothing which is done will create greater difficulty in the employment situation at Dunbartonshire. But we could not possibly make it a condition of a D.A.T.A.C. loan that a company receiving the loan should not go out of business. That is not practicable. But we ensure that if a company goes out of business we get our money back. That is the protection we have for public funds.

asked the President of the Board of Trade on what date he authorised a cement firm, details of which have been sent to him by the hon. Member for Wigan, to import Russian fuel oil; and if he will make a statement on the conditions attached thereto.

Licences have been issued since February, 1958. These have been subject to the normal conditions attaching to all import licences.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether this fuel oil is being imported at about one-third of the cost of British refined fuel oil and, if so, does he think that competition with such agreements is likely to help the coal industry to get rid of its surplus coal?

I do not think, even were I aware of it, that I could disclose the price paid by an individual consumer. In 1958 and early in 1959 some imports of fuel oil were licensed, and a special exemption was made in this case because the company entered into large capital commitments based on the use of Soviet oil with the knowledge of the Government at the time, and so we thought it right to make an exception, but only to this particular case.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is satisfied that all South African goods entering this country are easily identifiable as such.

There is no statutory requirement that South African goods should be identified as such, but where the Merchandise Marks Acts require the application of an indication of origin, that indication—so far as South African goods are concerned—may, at the option of the person applying the mark, be either the word "Empire", or a definite indication of the country in which the goods were manufactured or produced, for example, "Made in South Africa".

But is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is just the sort of statement he has made which causes the difficulty? The word "Empire" does not necessarily convey to people that goods are made in South Africa. Is he aware that many people wish to have the choice of whether they buy South African goods or not and the word "Empire does not give an opportunity for them to exercise that choice?

I do not think it was the purpose of Parliament when passing the Merchandise Marks Acts that they should be used for the political purpose which the hon. Member has in mind.

asked the President of the Board of Trade how many British firms are opening factories in countries of the European Common Market; and what effect this will have on United Kingdom exports.

We do not know how many United Kingdom firms are opening factories in the countries of the European Common Market, and it is not possible to say what effect such developments may have on United Kingdom exports.

The President may not be aware of the actual number, but surely he is aware that a considerable number of firms are doing this? Is not it a serious thing from the point of view of British employment and exports?

It is hard to judge, but I should say that in many ways when British firms invest in French, German or Italian firms, for example, it is a good thing for the economy and helps our balance of payments. But one of the troubles arising from the absence of agreement between the Six and the Seven is the duplication and waste of investment in Europe, which is one reason why we are so anxious to find solutions for this problem.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that British firms considering transferring their factories to the countries of the European Common Market, and foreign firms which are considering switching from the British Isles to Europe will not wait until the British Government have made up their mind whether or not they wish to enter the European Common Market?

I have not heard any proposals for any such transfer.

asked the President of the Board of Trade what advice he has given to British firms who trade with Israel.

The advice I have given to British firms who trade with Israel has depended on the questions they have asked.

Have any of them asked whether or not they should subject themselves to the form of blackmail which the Arab States are now placing on them by suggesting that if they trade with Israel they will lose Arab trade? If such a question is put to them, will the President support them in continuing their lawful trade with Israel?

I do not think we should advise them on what decisions to take in their own commercial interest, but we certainly do not recognise the right of these Arab countries to use their dispute with Israel to take measures harmful to British firms, and we have protested to the Governments concerned accordingly.

Has the President seen a report that some powerful interests in shipping are getting together to form a cartel undertaking not to trade with Israel in return for some concessions from Arab countries? Will the Government make clear their abhorrence of this kind of cartel of getting together to boycott a friendly country?

That is a question for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport, but if the right hon. Gentleman will send me details I will gladly look into the matter.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies which schools for Africans have been closed for political reasons in Northern Rhodesia; and when they will be reopened.

None, Sir. As I said in reply to a Question by the hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. G. M. Thomson) on 14th April, a number of schools have been closed because of indiscipline and insubordination. A commission of inquiry is at present examining the whole problem, and their recommendations are awaited.

Is the Colonial Secretary aware that, with one exception, all the 366 students of the Hodgson Technical College at Lusaka have been expelled for expressing themselves as opposed to Federation? Will the Colonial Secretary convey to the Minister of Education in Northern Rhodesia that he disapproves strongly of this attempt to interfere with the freedom of expression of political opinions by students? Will the inquiry be held in public, and what guarantee is there that students appearing before it will not be subjected to further victimisation?

I will study the matter again in the light of the supplementary question, but my information differs from that of the hon. Gentleman both regarding the Hodgson Technical College and other institutions. The inquiry is already taking place. There is a judge as chairman and two African members. I am not sure whether it is being held in public, but I will let the hon. Member know. I am sure that no question of further action being taken against the students for their evidence will arise.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how soon he expects the Kenya Government to realise their immediate aim of raising the minimum adult wage to a level which will support a man and his wife.

Progress towards this standard must be related to Kenya's economic circumstances and the Kenya Government cannot therefore undertake to reach it by any fixed date. The next step forward, however, will be taken with effect from 1st July as a result of the latest six-monthly review. The adult minimum wage and housing allowance will be raised in Nairobi by a total, of 8½ shillings to 128 shillings a month, and in other towns proportionately. The adult housing allowance will then reach the full target of twice the youth allowance, and the adult minimum wage will be 1·375 of the youth wage; the full target is 1·67.

Does not the Colonial Secretary regard as a very serious situation, which is bound to lead to considerable unrest, the fact that the adult minimum wage is not a living wage for a married man and, according to the Nairobi Labour Commissioner, is 50 per cent. below the level required to maintain a family of two children? Cannot the Colonial Secretary move faster to give a definite date for the introduction of a living wage for a married African man in Nairobi?

I doubt whether it is practicable to fix a date without any relation to Kenya's economic circumstances. There are many factors which play on this matter, not least some of the speeches which are being made and which have a considerable effect upon confidence in the economy of Kenya. Apart from that, I am sure that the hon. Member welcomes the step which is taking place on 1st July. When he studies my Answer, he will see that it goes a long way towards the first stage. I hope that as a result of the next review we shall be able to make further progress.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how far powers previously limited to a state of emergency, including detention without trial, are to be incorporated within the functions of the administration of Nyasaland; and when the remaining detainees arrested during the state of emergency are to be released.

There is no question of the Nyasaland Government assuming emergency powers in normal conditions. It has become possible to terminate the formal state of emergency and the special powers now in force are the minimum necessary to preserve public security during the transitional period, and will be kept under continuous review. The remaining detainees will be released when the Governor is satisfied that they no longer present any threat to the maintenance of law and order.

Yes, but have not many of the emergency powers been transferred to the normal Administration? Do not these include the control of public meetings, the control of places of residence, the control of movement and retention of detention without trial? Do not all these things outrage the Declaration of Human Rights which the United Nations has endorsed?

Only two regulations have been made. Those relate to the control of meetings and in some cases to the control of movement. There are no powers to make new detention orders, and for such powers to be brought into force a declaration would have to be made similar to that which precedes a state of emergency. At the present time, that is clearly not in contemplation in Nyasaland.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a statement on the proposed constitutional changes in Zanzibar.

The Report of the Constitutional Commissioner, Zanzibar, Sir Hilary Blood, was published in Zanzibar on 16th June, and I have placed copies of the Report in the Library.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in this case many of us welcome the recommendations which are made in this Report? When the right hon. Gentleman considers those recommendations, will he ask whether Zanzibar is not now in a position in which it can enjoy full internal self-government?

I agree that this is a helpful and imaginative Report, but, in view of the terms of my Answer, I do not think that it would be right to anticipate the decision which I shall have to take upon it.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (1) what was the total number of pigs on agricultural holdings in England and Wales for May; and how this figure compares with that for the previous month and with that for May, 1959;

The total number of pigs on agricultural holdings in England and Wales at the beginning of May is estimated at 4,150,000, compared with 4,570,000 in April and 4,820,000 in May, 1959. The corresponding estimates of sows for breeding were 544,000; 556,000 and 565,000 respectively.

In view of these very disappointing figures, and the Government's claims about an increasing pig population, will the Government look at the possibility of giving longer-term assurances to the pig industry than they gave in the Price Review?

No, I do not think it would be the right time to give any longer-term assurances than we have given. I think that the assurances which we gave in the Price Review have helped the establishment of long-term contracts. I hope that when the June figures are available, they will help to reassure the hon. Member about the position.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what standing orders he has made for urban zoos in respect of the importation of animals; whether he will make a standing order in this respect for animals of all zoos; and what was the cost of preparing, printing, and issuing the order of 30th May authorising the landing of a number of animals, including two duikers and one dik-dik.

There are standing orders for London, Edinburgh and Chester zoos, and my right hon. Friend is considering how far on animal health grounds he would be justified in making more orders of this kind. Each separate landing order costs about £14.

While appreciating the fact that some orders have already been made, does not the Minister think that it is a waste of money, for a few dik-diks and duikers, to have to have a separate order costing £14 a time? It may be of interest for zoological purposes, but, from the point of view of expenditure, does he not think that he should have a general standing order and allow these animals in?

I thought that my right hon. Friend had already explained to the hon. Member that he has taken some action in this respect. I remind the House that duikers are very important animals. [HON. MEMBERS: "What is a duiker?"] It is a small African antelope which is well known for its habit of diving into the bush when attacked. I suggest that hon. Members opposite might derive some benefit from following its example.

May I ask my hon. Friend, in the interest of the health of the livestock of this country, to be very careful before he allows any liberalisation of the importation of duikers or anything else?

Yes.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he is aware of the difficulties of navigation caused to officers of British fishing trawlers by the present uncertainty as to the fishing waters available to them in the North Sea and further north; and if he will now circulate to all concerned a detailed statement as to their rights and liabilities for their guidance.

My right hon. Friend is well aware that the British fishing industry have many difficulties at the present time, and he is in close touch with the industry about all these matters.

Is the Minister aware that this is exemplified by the unfortunate incident in which Her Majesty's destroyer "Crossbow" was involved recently, as indicated in my Question yesterday to the Civil Lord, and his Answer? Will he take steps to avoid unfortunate and expensive maritime international incidents which do great harm to the British fishing industry?

I do not think I can usefully add to what the hon. Member was told yesterday about that incident. I assure him, however, that my right hon. Friend is very anxious to reach a lasting settlement which is satisfactory to British fishing interests.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Dapartment whether his attention has been called to the recent prosecution of a man under the Hares Act of 1892, for selling an English hare between the months of March and July; what consideration he has given to the effect of the provisions of this Act, having regard to the development of deep freezing; and if he will make a statement.

My right hon. Friend has no proposals to make for amending this Act, but he is willing to consider, in consultation with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, any representations that may be made to him about it.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that this Act is quite out of date? Will he not, with some of his hon. and right hon. Friends, consider the necessity of repealing a number of Acts which have no sense at all on the Statute Book today?

The hon. Member has done a useful service in bringing this matter before the House, but there are other points of view. My right hon. Friend would consider representations from all interests.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware that figures for the ill-treatment of children are the highest for many years; and what he proposes doing to improve this situation.

I am glad to say that the number of persons found guilty of cruelty to children by the courts in England and Wales has been falling fairly steadily in recent years and in 1959 was the lowest since the end of the war.

That Answer is not true. Is the right hon. Member not aware—my correspondence shows it—that since this Question was tabled many people in this country have been agitated by the fact that the figures in the last year's Report are the highest for many years and are not unique in the sense that they show a trend which has been manifest for the last three or four years? If the right hon. Gentleman contradicts that, I should like to see his evidence. In view of those figures, will not he consider giving to the National Society a percentage of the total contributions in any one year in order that more inspectors may be appointed to deal with this problem?

The hon. Member may be confused. The reference which I gave is to the number of convictions. These have fallen from a peak of 1,076 in 1951 to an all-time low record of 653 in 1959. That is to be welcomed. I appreciate the point the hon. Member made, which refers to the number of cases which have been reported. It may well be that the public have been more alert in reporting cases. I appreciate that there is concern about this and I intend to examine these figures further.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a good deal of public concern about some of the cases which come before the courts? Does he not agree that there is a tendency to leave all action in this matter to the N.S.P.C.C.? Will not he make an appeal to the public and also see that the police are much more vigilant and do not leave everything to the voluntary society?

One point which we must welcome is that the public have reported more cases, which is revealed in the Report to which the hon. Member referred. The whole of this question is within the terms of the Ingleby Committee, whose Report we shall see fairly shortly. I think that this Question may have served some purpose, for public opinion can be of the greatest help in this matter.

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell the House in what proportion of the cases prosecuted to conviction was the prosecuting authority the N.S.P.C.C. and in what proportion was it the public authority?

I cannot answer that without notice, but I think that it was in the minority of cases that the N.S.P.C.C. laid the information as the prosecuting authority.