asked the Minister of Works what would be the cost of preparing the soil and resowing the grass in the Cloister Court of the Palace of Westminster.

About £80. But this Courtyard has been returfed a number of times in the last few years, it gets no sunlight and the grass will not grow. I therefore propose, with the agreement of the Palace authorities, to replace grass by paving. The work is due to be carried out in the Long Recess.

May I thank my right hon. Friend for his reply and say how entirely I agree with the solution which he has arrived at?

asked the Minister of Works when he proposes to remove the derelict pillbox from the iron age ramparts of the Old Sarum ancient monument.

I do not propose to remove the pillbox. It is not obscuring any feature of archaeological importance and it has an interest of its own in illustrating the tactical significance of ancient military sites continuing into our own times.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the only interest which this pillbox has in itself is the fact that a defensive fortification erected in the last few years is clearly derelict whereas the iron age ramparts are in excellent condition? Surely he can take it on himself to remove what is really an offence in an ancient monument?

If it were an offence there would be no question about moving it. But it is a small dot in hundreds of yards of ramparts, and I think it has an interest, and will have as the years go by, for what it is meant to be.

asked the Minister of Works if he will grant facilities for the public to visit No. 10 Downing Street while the Prime Minister is not in occupation either before or after the reconstruction of these premises.

There is no time to lose if the reconstruction programme is to be kept and I regret I cannot arrange opening to the public before work begins. I will bear in mind the possibility of opening after the work is complete.

I am partially grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for the latter part of his reply. Is he aware that a large number of people will be sadly disappointed that the Government are not able to take advantage of the unique opportunity which presents itself for a week or two to allow the public to see the inside of one of Britain's most famous and historic buildings?

I would very much have liked to have done so had it been possible. But I am sure the House will agree that it is important that we should not fall short on this programme, which is a very tight one. I am satisfied that it is in the public interest that this should not be done now.

asked the Minister of Works if he will arrange for the sale to the public, in St. James's Park, of pictorial leaflets illustrating the types of ducks and geese which frequent the lake there.

I should like to do something on these lines, if I can, and I am looking into the possibilities.

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for looking into the possibilities. While one is aware that there is a key to these birds on a board at one corner of the lake, nevertheless it is quite useless to anyone who wants to spot birds in other parts of the lake. If my right hon. Friend comes to a favourable conclusion as a result of his consideration, may I hope it will be taken generally as a compliment to these birds, which I think I am right in saying are held in great esteem both here and outside?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. While we do not any of us want to call our geese swans, I shall do my best to see what can be done by way of description of these birds.

asked the Minister of Works what was the number of bricks produced this year up to the latest convenient date; and what are the comparable figures for 1955 and 1957.

In the first five months of 1960 brick production amounted to 3,021 million. Comparable figures for 1955 and 1957 were 2,866 million and 2,934 million, respectively.

While thanking the Minister for those figures, may I ask if he is aware that the production of bricks is not keeping pace with demand? Did he not rather mislead the House last week about the situation when he said that deliveries showed a post-war record, when in fact the stock of bricks has dropped from 490 million in 1958 to 262 million in 1959, and is now down to 100 million, which is well below what it has been for many years? Is not this encouraging the development of a black market in bricks? Is he aware that the situation is getting very much worse and is holding up house building?

I do not think I misled the House at all. I made it quite clear that the record to which I referred was a record of production. As the hon. Member knows, no figures of stocks held by builders are collected, but they are probably considerable.

Will my right hon. Friend realise that if he would give a definite guarantee of forty years' life for brick earth he would go a long way towards securing an increase in the production of bricks?

I very much hope that the rise in the curve of production will continue without such a forty-year guarantee.

Is the Minister of Works aware that great quantities of bricks are being used to build modern garages and filling stations, for which I understand money is put up by oil companies? This happens all over the United King dom and is causing an artificial shortage of bricks for essential purposes such as house building.

I beg to give notice that, owing to the complacency of the Minister and the unsatisfactory Answer he has given, I will raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Works how many historic houses on the waiting list of the Historic Buildings Council for England at the end of December, 1959, and considered by them to be of outstanding interest, have now had the repairs started; and how many still remain without the offer of a grant.

There were thirty-one historic buildings on the waiting list at 31st December, 1959; grants have been offered in six cases and will be offered in a further five if inquiries show that they are needed. In none of these cases has repair work yet started. One application has been withdrawn. In nineteen cases, applicants have been informed that no grant can be offered.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree with his own Council that his cut of £200,000 in the year just ended has signed the death warrant of many fine historic buildings? Can he give an assurance that in the next year that will be restored?

If the hon. Member looks at my Answer given on this point last week, he will see that we are looking into the whole question. It is a pity to use exaggerated language, and in that I would include the words "death warrant".

asked the Minister of Works what improved arrangements he has made for the preservation of historic buildings of outstanding group value.

I have recently told the Historic Buildings Council that I am prepared to consider recommendations for grants to preserve buildings in defined groups of outstanding historic or architectural interest. I must however express the hope that local authorities will take the lead in this field of preservation.

Why does the right hon. Gentleman expect local authorities to take the lead? Surely the Government should take the lead in the matter? Could he be more specific about the amount of grant he proposes to offer and the steps he proposes to take?

I have answered the hon. Member's Question. I do not want to go further on the main point. The reason I said what I said about local authorities is that I am very anxious that demands for help for groups should not prejudice what I am able to do to help individually beautiful houses.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that there is more than one point of view among hon. Members on the question of giving grants of money to wealthy occupiers of historic houses?

Will my right hon. Friend say whether this money is coming from an existing fund or whether a new fund is to be formed?

The fund came into existence as a result of the appropriate Act passed in order to enable this help to be given.

This is for a group?

No, it is the same fund.

Does the reply of the Minister mean that, as from now, if there be a street which should be preserved as a whole, despite the fact that one or two buildings in the street are not of real merit, the street as a whole can be preserved and a grant will be made available?

That is a hypothetical case. What it means is that only in exceptional cases would a grant be given, just as in the case of individual applications. The difficulty will be to see where to draw the line when a request is received for a group of houses to be helped. It will not be easy.

asked the Minister of Works on what date he received a letter from Mrs. Dow Birrell, of 10, Abbey Park Place, Dunfermline, forwarded to him by the hon. Member for Dunfermline Burghs, stating that on the occasion of the annual pilgrimage of Catholics to the shrine of Queen Margaret in Dunfermline Abbey, an ancient monument maintained by his Department, the pilgrims found that the doors had been locked at 4.15 p.m. in spite of the fact that they are customarily open on Sundays, April to September, until 5.30 p.m.; what reply he has sent; and whether he will inquire into the matter.

I received the letter on 23rd June and a reply was sent to the hon. Member today. The nave of Dunfermline Abbey was closed until 4.15 p.m. on Sunday, 12th June, at the request of the Kirk Session of Abbey Church whilst a special children's service was being held in the Church. The closing of the nave on such occasions is in accordance with long-standing custom and by arrangement with the Kirk Session. The organisers of the pilgrimage were given prior notice of this service and asked to restrict ther visit to the period between 4.30 p.m. and 5.30 p.m.

While thanking the Minister for that reply, may I ask him to bear in mind that, according to Mrs. Birrell, this is not the first time that access to the shrine has been denied to pilgrims? In previous years pilgrims have had to climb over a gate to lay a wreath on the shrine of Queen Margaret. While appreciating that there was no vindictive intent in this case, may I ask the Minister to ensure that in future access will be given to pilgrims, because I have received letters from both Catholics and Protestants on this matter?

I do not think it unreasonable on an occasion like this to ask those who come from outside to wait while a service is in progress. Certainly on this occasion, as previously, there have been no complaints from people who wanted to come in. This lady's complaint is the first we have received.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will state the material direct and indirect loss to trade, industry and employment in the north of Scotland caused by the forest fire there in June, 1960; and which trades and industries were affected.

Although much valuable timber was destroyed in the recent forest fire, which affected estates at Glenmore, Rothiemurchus and Pityoulish, it is likely that the net loss, direct or indirect, to trade or industry in the north of Scotland will be slight. I understand that no unemployment has been caused by the fire.

Is not the long duration of this great fire, its extent and the great consequent loss a measure of the failure of the Secretary of State's Department to deal with a disaster of this kind? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that disasters of this kind have occurred before and this should have been foreseen and provided against? Will he take steps to see that that is done in future?

If the hon. and learned Member has ever seen a forest fire he will know how very difficult it is to deal with. The Forestry Commission has developed comprehensive fire fighting arrangements in co-operation with the local authority fire services. I am assured that in the fire, which started on 3rd June and was not put out until 11th June, most admirable work was done by the fire brigade, and I should like to congratulate all those who took part in dealing with the emergency.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what new proposals he has for assisting local authorities in Scotland to speed up their slum clearance programmes.

A guide to the various statutory procedures for slum clearance has been prepared for the assistance of local authorities and will be issued shortly. Without infringing the various rights of objection and appeal that have been established by Parliament, it is difficult to see how the procedures themselves can be expedited, but this is being studied.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that we want something more than guides and that what local authorities really need is more financial provision, particularly in view of the increasing interest rates, especially during the last few days?

I think that the recent circular should assist local authorities in speeding up slum clearance.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will now make a statement concerning the future of Moray House Demonstration School.

As my right hon. Friend has informed the hon. Member, he has been advised that under the present regulations governors of colleges have no power to close a main department of an attached demonstration school. Pupils will therefore be admitted to the secondary department of Moray House School next session. To make more room in the college itself, the governors are considering with Edinburgh Education Authority moving the secondary department temporarily to accommodation nearby.

While we are grateful that the secondary department is to continue as it was during the 1960–61 session, may I ask the hon. Member whether he is aware that there is still a very big question mark over the future of this department? Is it the Secretary of State's intention, having obtained the powers which he is to seek, to close it?

It would be for the governors, in the first place, to consider whether or not to close it. My right hon. Friend's intention is to give himself a power to be consulted and, indeed, to approve or disapprove the governors' recommendations.

Is not the Joint Under-Secretary of State aware that, following correspondence between my hon. Friend, the Department and myself, the Minister's reply contains a threat to do something to this school which we find unacceptable? Would it not be very much better for the Scottish Office to take action to consider the whole future of the school and do the thing cleanly rather than to institute amending legislation to carryout what they have found that they have been unable to do?

I do not think that there is a threat at all. There is an immediate problem of pressure of accommodation with which these arrangements are designed to deal. The essence of the matter remains entirely open and is by no means prejudiced by the action being taken.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland to what extent it is the practice in Scottish schools to enlist the help of headmasters in security checks against pupils past or present.

Headmasters are frequently consulted by prospective employers about the suitability of individual pupils and former pupils for particular posts of many kinds, including posts entailing security risks.

Can the hon. Member be a bit more specific? Is he aware that this Question arises out of the extremely disturbing answers which were given on a similar issue in England by the Minister of Education just before Whitsun? Is he aware that on that occasion we were given to understand that the police, M.I.5 were asking headmasters, or their equivalent, of senior secondary schools in England about the political activities of senior pupils? Will the hon. Member give us an assurance that that is not the practice in Scotland?

To the best of my knowledge, no questions are asked about the political views of pupils or former pupils. This is a check on the reliability of candidates in a most important field, just as any other prospective employer would carry out a check.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will amend the regulations on grants to university students so as to eliminate a means test on the income of the parents.

This is one of the matters dealt with in the Report of the Anderson Committee on Grants to Students. The Government's decisions on the Report will be announced as soon as possible.

Is the hon. Member aware that the ideal of a free education from the primary standard right to the university has long been a cherished ideal in Scottish education? Now that it has the approval of the Anderson Committee, may we be assured that the Secretary of State will lend it his support, particularly at a time when we need university graduates more than ever?

My right hon. Friend is considering this from all angles, but he will most certainly take into account what the hon. Member has said.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many pedestrians have been killed on the Glasgow to Edinburgh Road between Salsburgh and Harthill; and how many of these were under 15 years of age.

During the period between 1st January, 1957, and 31st May, 1960, three adult pedestrians were killed in road accidents between Salsburgh and Harthill. During the same period one child was killed in Salsburgh and one in Harthill.

The Minister, of course, is aware that if he had taken them from the time that this road was built, which is not so very long ago, he would have found the figures very much worse than those which he has given. In any event, does he not realise that the death of these young children brings very great sorrow to many homes and real fears for the parents of young children?

Yes. My right hon. Friend is very well aware of that and, in particular, he conveyed to the hon. Lady his sympathy in the case of the child who was recently killed.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when work will commence on the by-pass road at Harthill, Lanarkshire.

I have nothing to add to the reply which my right hon. Friend gave to the hon. Lady on 1st March last.

Surely the Minister is aware that this stretch of the Edinburgh-Glasgow road is much more dangerous than any other part of it. Does he realise that the answer which he gave, that the Baillieston-Newhouse part would be the first to be done, has caused great concern to my constituents? Is he also aware that the part which has been chosen to be done first has been chosen because it will cost less money than the part to which I have referred, where the work is needed so badly?

I do not accept what the hon. Lady said. The seven-mile stretch from Baillieston to New-house is a particularly dangerous part, because there are four important main junctions on it, whereas the road between Salsburgh and Harthill is an open stretch of road.

The Minister, who was ready to give that answer to my supplementary question, ought to have looked at the number of deaths which have been caused there. If he does, he will find that the road from Salsburgh to Harthill is much more dangerous than that on which the work is to be started first.

I cannot accept that either. The number of deaths and of accidents in general is looked at on the three-year basis to which I have referred. I will go into the figures again and write to the hon. Lady, but I do not think we shall find that the record of this stretch is worse than the record of the stretch which I have mentioned

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) why the preparation of Scottish research students in science and technology in Scotland is only 8 per cent. of the Great Britain figure; and whether he is prepared to examine the whole scheme of education in science in Scotland with a view to expanding Scottish interest;

I am informed that the figure of 8 per cent. applies only to research studentships granted by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research and that there are also Scottish research students in Scotland who receive assistance from other sources. The number of awards of research studentships depends upon the number of proposals for researches submitted. Awards of advanced course studentships can only be made where advanced courses are available at universities and other advanced institutions. My right hon. Friend welcomes the fact that the number of such courses in Scotland is increasing and will give every encouragement to them within his sphere of responsibilities.

Will the Secretary of State look into the question of why so few Scottish students apply for these special facilities? Will he also consider whether there should not be an inquiry into the provision of these facilities at Scottish universities? Is it not undesirable that all these things should be channelled down to Oxford, Cambridge and one or two other universities in England? Would it not be much better to build up the possibility of taking these advanced courses elsewhere?

We should distinguish straight away between advanced courses and actual projects of research. I dealt with both in my Answer. Projects of research depend upon proposals which are submitted, and these are not matters entirely in my right hon. Friend's hands. We will certainly give it further consideration.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he has any figures relating to the amount of gear lost by lobster and crab fishermen round the coast; and if he will consider some form of compensation or insurance scheme.

I regret that no figures are available for such losses. While my right hon. Friend sympathises with fishermen who lose gear, this is a commercial hazard inseparable from fishing, and he does not think assistance from public funds would be justified.

Is it not the case that the loss of gear at present prices is a very serious matter to fishermen and sometimes represents a very heavy loss? While I appreciate the difficulty of establishing an insurance scheme, will not the Government consider giving assistance to fishermen to run some sort of co-operative insurance scheme of their own?

I should welcome any move towards a scheme of mutual insurance, but I am afraid that this is a matter for the fishermen themselves and could not be run by the Government.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware that recently members of the public had to wait in a queue of 42 cars for three hours before getting across Strome Ferry; and what action he proposes to take to provide a by-pass road.

My right hon. Friend is aware that from time to time there are delays at Strome Ferry, but I am unable to say When a by-pass, which would cost over half a million pounds, can be fitted into the road programme.

Is the Joint Under-Secretary aware that this is an absolute scandal? [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] It is totally against the Government's policy of developing tourism in the Highlands, and all authoritive bodies in Scotland believe that this road should by-pass Strome Ferry as soon as possible.

As my hon. Friend knows—and he has been to see my right hon. Friend about this—there has been a considerable improvement in that a six-car ferry was introduced last year. We have not had a whole year to see how that will work, but towards the end of the tourist season my right hon. Friend will be glad to discuss the matter with my hon. Friend.

This is when the six-car ferry is in operation, and it is only the beginning of the season.

It would be quite wrong to give the impression that the degree of waiting to which my hon. Friend has referred is anything like a regular occurrence; it certainly is not. While there are delays, it is only at the peak periods that there are delays of an hour or more.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has considered the resolution sent to him by Dingwall Burgh Council in support of the representations by the county council and other local authorities in favour of the abolition of the system of State management of sole control of the liquor trade and the power of the Secretary of State to overthrow the decision of the local licensing court; and what reply he has sent to them.

Yes, Sir. The council has been informed that my right hon. Friend has noted the terms of their motion.

Will my hon. Friend take action and not only notice? This is another scandal in the area.[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Why is my hon. Friend afraid of competition? Surely it is obvious that more licensed premises are required in the area and that private enterprise will not provide them unless it can get licences.

My right hon. Friend told my hon. Friend in an Adjournment debate that he was considering the implications of what he said in that debate.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what improvement grants, other than for land drainage, from water supplies, livestock rearing land schemes, silos, farm improvement schemes, and small farmers schemes, are available to Scottish farmers; and what steps he intends to take to ensure that all farmers are aware of the availability of all such grants.

Improvement grants are also given under the Horticulture Improvements Scheme and the Crofters Agricultural Grants Scheme. My right hon. Friend is satisfied that existing methods of publicity by Press, radio and leaflet are adequate.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that I am very much concerned to ensure that the farmer knows what he is entitled to? In view of the vast number of subsidies, it is very difficult for him to know which to apply for and when to apply for them. Would it not be much simpler to advise him what he cannot apply for?

We all know that the hon. Gentleman is inimical to some of these grants given to agriculture, but that does not deter the Government from pursuing a policy which is doing a great deal to build up the assets of the nation and which is highly beneficial to British farming.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what recent reports he has had of fish being attacked in Loch Ness; and what was the source of the attacks.

My right hon. Friend has received no such reports.

Has my hon. Friend heard any reference to a monster in this loch? If so, will he take steps to see that its identity is not established, because when we have a first-class mystery it is just as well to keep it?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will increase the allocation of grant to Lanark County Council for schemes costing less than £100,000 on classified roads for the year 1960–61.

As the hon. Gentleman is aware, my right hon. Friend has recently told the county council that he is not in a position at present to determine whether any increase in the amount of grant tentatively allocated for Lanarkshire will be possible.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that some four years ago Lanark County Council had £123,000 allocated for schemes of less than £100,000 and that in the current financial year, if one leaves out of account the four bridges necessary to be reconstructed as a result of railway electrification, Lanark County Council—the largest county council in Scotland, with a population of 500,000—is left with the grand sum of £2,000? Does not the Joint Under-Secretary think it is a scandalous amount of money to be available for road schemes which will each cost under £100,000?

The hon. Gentleman has left out of account altogether the schemes for East Kilbride which fall to be considered in line with the amount which is available to Lanarkshire in regard to the total amount to be spent in Scotland on schemes of this description. At that time there was an abnormal amount available for schemes costing less than £100,000 in Scotland, and, indeed, it has been necessary to divert a little more of the total sum available to trunk road schemes. The net amount of £2,000 is after budgeting for the amount in East Kilbride, as well as for the four bridges to which the hon. Gentleman referred.

Is the hon. Gentleman also aware that the £123,000 allocated in 1956–57 was the sum left over after the amount for the East Kilbride development was taken into account? Why should the County of Lanarkshire be restricted in the amount of road work it can do because any Secretary of State has decided to go ahead with the new town of East Kilbride, which is in one corner of Lanarkshire, whereas these other four bridges are all in the part of Lanarkshire which abuts on the City of Glasgow where rail electrification is taking place? There is a population of 500,000 in that part of Lanarkshire in respect of which the sum of £2,000 is available for road schemes under £100,000.

The fact remains that, while the population of Lanarkshire is about one-tenth of the population of Scotland, the amount under this heading available to Lanarkshire is just under one-tenth of the total amount available.

The whole total is ridiculous.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will state the names of the interested organisations which have been invited to submit evidence to the Reid Committee on Registration of Title to Land in Scotland.

I understand that the Committee has invited evidence from local authority associations, the universities, legal societies, and a number of other bodies, in addition to publishing a general invitation in the Press.

Is the Minister aware of the widespread concern that this Committee is loaded in favour of the legal profession and against the consumer? Is he further aware that many people, including some members of the profession itself, believe that the system of conveyancing in Scotland is archaic, slow and expensive and that the profession itself has a vested interest in maintaining that? Will the hon. Gentleman give an assurance that consumer interests by way of house purchasers will be given an opportunity of tendering evidence?

The Reid Committee is examining a highly technical problem, and I think that we can well leave to Lord Reid and his colleagues the duty of dealing with the remit which they have been given. I am quite certain that they will deal with it fairly in regard both to those in favour of registration and those who are against it.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will state the reasons for the reduction in the replacement rate of appliances in the fire service; and what steps he proposes to take to restore the supply of new appliances to its former rate or to increase it.

The replacement of fire appliances is a matter for the fire authorities who have a statutory obligation to maintain an efficient fire service. My right hon. Friend has no reason to suppose that they are not doing so.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in his own fire inspector's report for Scotland special mention is made of the fact that these appliances are in shorter supply than previously, and in view of the recent incidents in Glasgow, Liverpool and elsewhere, is it not right that men called upon to save lives should be supplied with the most modern and up-to-date appliances possible?

The inspector said that the amount of replacements of major fire appliances last year was less than in previous years, and that is so. Taken over a period of three years, however, it was greater than in the previous two three-year periods, and the number of other appliances bought in 1959 was greater than in 1956 or 1957.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware of the inadequacy of many trunk roads for the traffic: they have to carry; and why he has proposed to limit projects of new construction and major improvement on trunk roads in the current year to a cost even less than the actual expenditure incurred last year.

This year trunk road schemes amounting to £4½million will be authorised; the comparable figure for last year was £2,347,000. This year it is estimated that payments in respect of work done—mostly on schemes already authorised—will be £3,401,000; actual expenditure last year was £3295,360.

Did not the Joint Under-Secretary say in answer to Question No. 24 that the Government had to take into account, in deciding the amount of money to be made available for classified roads, the amount of money made available for trunk roads? Is he aware that the figures which he gave just now are not quite the same as those shown in the Estimates, which were that Scotland last year had an actual expenditure on the trunk roads of £3,407,000. The Estimate for the coming year is £3,401,000, which shows a reduction of £6,000. Meanwhile, in England there has been an increase from £37,650,000 to £50,660,000. I do not think that England is getting too much for trunk roads, but why should there be an increase of £13 million for expenditure on trunk roads in England with no increase at all in Scotland?

The figure the hon. Gentleman quoted was the estimated figure of £3,407,000. I gave the actual expenditure for last year. As the hon. Gentleman knows, the road programme hae been calculated over a period of four years.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if the Kilbrandon Committee on Youth Service in Scotland will issue an interim report.

No, Sir. The Standing Consultative Council on Youth Service in Scotland has not been asked to prepare any report. The Council is not a committee of inquiry but a standing body whose functions are to secure the fullest consultation and co-ordination among the statutory authorities and voluntary organisations engaged in youth service, and to promote the development of the service. The results of the Council's work in any particular year will, of course, be reported in the Scottish Education Department's Annual Report.

Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that in Circular No. 436 the Secretary of State says that he will await the conclusion of the labours of this body in order to obtain its advice before he takes any further steps? Something requires to be done immediately about this most important service. Does the Secretary of State intend to adhere to the terms of Circular No. 436 and not listen to my suggestion that we should have some interim conclusion so as to guide local authorities, and so on, in the meantime?

The Kilbrandon Committee is giving continuous advice. It is continually considering various aspects of the youth service, and it has already made a recommendation, which has been accepted, that a one-year training course for full-time youth leaders and organisers should be instituted. We hope that it will be instituted in the autumn. The Committee is also considering the bang-term training of youth leaders. Its main function, as is stated in the circular to which the hon. Gentleman refers, is to consider methods by which

"To secure the greatest possible measure of consultation and co-ordination both nationally and locally among the statutory authorities and voluntary organizations …"

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what he estimates will be the effect on Scottish local authority house building of the latest increase in interest rates.

Decisions on the scale of housing programmes depend on many factors and I do not believe that the measures recently announced will deter local authorities from continuing to provide houses for priority needs on at least the present scale.

One wonders how incredulous the Secretary of State is. Is he aware that there is already concern in Scotland about the serious decline in local authority building?

And in England.

It is frankly admitted that the inevitable result of this financial squeeze will be further to reduce the number of local authority houses built. Indeed, from the statements of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that is the intention of the Government.

The hon. Member is expressing an opinion of his own. His Question asked me to express my opinion, and I have expressed it. I add that it is not yet clear what effect the measures will have on the market rate for local authority borrowing. This is a very important Question, and I repeat what I have said before. If local authorities charge reasonable rents for existing houses and make a fair contribution from the rates, with their existing pool of Exchequer subsidies they should have a substantial margin to enable them to finance their present building programmes, even if they have to borrow at slightly higher interest rates than at present.

Is the right hon. Gentleman telling us that freezing Government fixed expenditure for 1961–62 at the present level, raising the Bank Rate and reducing liquidity in the Scottish banks will have no effect on housing?

The hon. Member touched on a matter at the beginning of his supplementary question which is dealt with in a later Question, and I prefer to wait until then before answering. I have expressed my view which was asked for on the Question I am answering.

Is the Secretary of State aware that the one local authority in Scotland which took his advice in relation to the raising of rents was Dumfries County Council, and it gained absolutely nothing thereby? The right hon. Gentleman said that it is too early to say exactly what the result of this will be. Does that mean that if it does not cause a sufficiently speedy decline in the number of houses being built the Chancellor of the Exchequer will still further increase the Bank Rate?

The hon. Gentleman must not make assumptions and deal with hypothetical situations.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will state the considerations that prompted the issue of the circular changing the conditions under which housing subsidies are to be paid.

The circular itself made clear my right hon. Friend's approach, but there will no doubt be an opportunity for further explanations in the course of Thursday's debate in the Scottish Grand Committee.

Is not this interfering with the rights of local authorities? As the right hon. Gentleman has been proclaiming that we must trust local authorities, is it fair—indeed, is it not even sharp practice—for the Secretary of State for Scotland, without reference to Parliament, to change the conditions for the granting of subsidies in Scotland?

No, this is not sharp practice, nor is it interfering with the rights of local authorities. The hon. Gentleman ought to know perfectly well that under the 1957 Act my right hon. Friend has a duty to be satisfied of the extent and trend of these needs.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will indicate the extent of the waiting list for houses in Glasgow; and how many houses that authority expects to complete this year.

There are about 130,000 names on Glasgow's waiting list. I understand that the corporation expects to complete some 3,000 houses this year and that against an estimate for the next five years of a requirement of about 10,400 houses for priority applicants and 20,000 for families displaced by redevelopment there will be available 12,800 new houses plus 10,000 from overspill and 10,000 from relets.

The Minister is aware that Glasgow's annual output of houses has fallen in the last few years from 6,000 to less than 3,000, due to the fact that there are no more sites in the city on which to build. Apart from exporting six or seven hundred families to reception areas in new towns, can the hon. Gentleman give us any indication of the Government's intention to solve this problem within the next forty years?

Yes, certainly—to continue with exporting population to new towns and to continue our overspill arrangements. The hon. Gentleman is expecting results too soon.

We have been waiting half a lifetime.

The city may have been waiting half a lifetime, but we have at the moment three new towns in operation, none of which is yet finished. I think it is far better to continue with this rather than, as the hon. Gentleman has suggested many times, to start a fourth town at this moment.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what proportion of the cost of surveying the origin and destination of traffic approaching the city of Edinburgh will be borne by his Department.

The survey will attract grant of 50 per cent., but for the part of it which is of direct use for trunk road plans the grant will be 100 per cent.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the survey is being made primarily in connection with the proposed by-pass round the city of Edinburgh? In view of the long-term importance of the project, is the grant being paid at the maximum rate?

The grant is the normal amount paid. The survey will be of great value in the future planning of the City's internal road system, and it is primarily directed to ascertain what is known as the by-passable traffic.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware of the urgent need for additional maternity beds in Glasgow in advance of the projects now under construction; and what action he will take to meet this need.

These projects will provide 90 additional beds within a year, and a total addition of 200 by the end of 1964. New admission arrangements are being made so that existing hospitals will admit cases where the social need is greatest as well as all cases of medical need. The temporary diversion of beds from other uses is being considered by the regional board.

The Minister is aware and does not deny that there is an acute shortage of maternity beds in Glasgow. Is he prepared, in conjunction with the Western Regional Hospital Board, to meet the Glasgow Corporation with his own Department to discuss this matter?

My noble Friend the Minister of State is arranging to do just that.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland on what date the local inquiry into the Overgate redevelopment in Dundee was completed; when he expects to receive the report; and what fee is payable to the commissioner.

The inquiry ended on 11th February. I understand that the final comments of the parties on the factual part of the report have only just been submitted. My right hon. Friend expects to receive the report within the next few days, when the amount of the fee will be determined.

Will the Minister make sure that the commissioner is not paid too highly by going very slowly on this matter? Is he aware that this is a matter of great importance and urgency for Dundee and, when he gets the report, will he take a quick decision on it?

I can give that undertaking.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he expects building operations to begin on the new Dundee hospital.

The present forecast is that building operations will begin in February, 1963.

Is the Joint Under-Secretary aware that it is exactly a year ago since I asked a similar Question and that there was then a sense of shock when he announced that the starting date had been put back to late 1961? Is he aware that his information that the work is now being pushed back for two years to 1963 will make people in Scotland feel that it is disgracefully slow and is becoming a national scandal?

The hon. Gentleman must realise this is the first complete new teaching hospital to be built in Scotland. There is no up-to-date experience in the United Kingdom of the building of a new teaching hospital, and we want to make sure that, when we build, we build in the right way.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will state the average price realised for ware potatoes, grown in Scotland, which have been marketed between 27th September, 1959, and the present date.

The average price for ware potatoes sold in Scotland for human consumption between 27th September, 1959, and 30th April, 1960, is provisionally estimated at £10 8s. 6d. per ton. The average as at the present date cannot yet be calculated.

Is my hon. Friend aware that two rather disturbing features arise here? First, although the price he has quoted is nearly £3 below the support price, no deficiency payment will be available, and, secondly, the flood of imported early potatoes is doing nothing to make an already disturbing situation any easier?

My hon. Friend will bear in mind that the potato guarantee is a collective guarantee designed to ensure a reasonable return to the industry as a whole. In considering the position of Scottish potato growers, it must be remembered that half of the Scottish potato acreage is grown for the higher-priced seed market.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if reductions are proposed to be made in construction of roads, piers, &c., and other public expenditure in Scotland as a result of the recent Government announcement.

There are no proposals for cuts in roads and piers. As regards public expenditure generally, discussions are proceeding on the way in which to implement the decision announced by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer on 23rd June to hold the public sector investment programme for 1961–62 at the level of the current programme for the present financial year.

Is the Secretary of State aware that in many public services Scotland is already behind and that any cut in or slowing down of the programme will have very serious effects, particularly in those places where, as I have said, the general social amenities already lag very much behind the rest of the country?

The hon. Gentleman will be aware of the very considerable advance we have been making in recent years over the whole area of Scotland, and particularly in the far North, in relation to roads and piers. I should add that the special circumstances of Scotland will certainly be borne in mind in the discussions that are proceeding.

Is the Secretary of State aware that less work is being done on road construction in Scotland than in any country in Western Europe, including the Republic of Ireland; and that none of those countries has anything like the need for roads that Scotland has? Is it not about time that he was really getting down to starting—not just telling us about what he will do in the future, but starting a real programme of road works in Scotland?

If the hon. Gentleman will look at the work done in recent years he will see that it is rising steadily in every year, and I must remind him that there are such things as relevant priorities, a matter that was worrying his Government so much when last in office that they did virtually no work whatsoever on roads in Scotland.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Owing to the most unsatisfactory nature of the reply given by the right hon. Gentleman to the Question asked by the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond), I give notice that I will raise the matter, especially in connection with the road programme in Scotland, on the Adjournment at the earliest possible opportunity.

asked the President of the Board of Trade what progress he has made in conjunction with the special committee set up under the chairmanship of the Lord Provost of Aberdeen to promote export trade from Aberdeen to the Scandinavian and near European countries.

When the committee has started work I shall be glad to consider how the Board of Trade can help it in the promotion of export trade or in any other ways.

Does not the Minister of State realise that he is a bit late in saying this that this authoritative and representative committee is making a valuable attempt to make good the wanton breaches of promise by this Government and the previous Government with regard to attracting trade to Aberdeen? What is the present position? Does he know that this is a very urgent matter?

I think the hon. and learned Gentleman is a little late in putting down his Question.

asked the President of the Board of Trade how the import quotas for bacon and butter from Poland for 1960 compare with those for 1959.

The quotas for the twelve months beginning on 1st July, 1960, are the same as those for the calendar year 1959. Interim quotas of 20,000 tons for bacon and 10,000 tons for butter were established for the first six months of 1960.

Will the right hon. Gentleman call the attention of his right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture to this reply and ask his right hon. Friend to correct the statements he has previously made about this?

I shall certainly look at what my right hon. Friend said, but I shall be very surprised if any correction is needed.

asked the Prime Minister whether, in advance of receiving proposals for closer association wish the European Economic Community, he will himself formulate plans for the method and timing of Great Britain's entry into the Common Market, and lay them first before the Prime Ministers of the Outer Seven and then before those of the European Economic Community.

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave to the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) on 21st June. Negotiations are going on in the Committee on Trade Problems in Paris, and I think that it would be better to wait and see what comes out of them.

Does not the Prime Minister realise that the growing strength of the Common Market represents an urgent threat to British industry? If he will not take that from me, will he read the Motion on the Order Paper signed by a number of his hon. Friends in revolt against his slowness? Would it not be better for him to address himself to this problem than to waste time trying to promote summit conferences that do not take place?

In this matter I shall, of course, do anything I can which seems at the right moment best calculated to lead towards the achievement of our aims, and, I think, the aims of the whole House, of a partnership between the two groupings in a common system of European trade consistent with the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that there will be many people who will entirely agree with him if he shows reluctance for this country to do all the giving and get no benefit in return?

There are two main points we have to keep in mind. We are entering these negotiations with our partners. We do not intend in any way to abandon the partnership into which we have entered, that is, the E.F.T.A. We shall do all we can to reach an agreement, for the purposes I have stated, with our friends in the Six.

Can the Prime Minister tell us whether, if suitable terms can be arranged with the Commonwealth and arrangements made with our partners in the Seven, the Government have made up their mind whether they want to go into the Common Market or not?

What we want is an arrangement and a partnership between the two groupings for a common system of European trade, and that does imply, first, loyalty to our friends in the E.F.T.A., and then every possible effort to reach agreement upon how the Six and the Seven can be brought into a common European trade system.

asked the Prime Minister if he will set up an arms control research institute under his personal direction to investigate the problems involved in a workable disarmament programme.

No, Sir. This work must be done multilaterally to be of value.

Is it not a stumbling-block for peace that the arms race continues partly because we have never faced up to the economic and social problems involved in disarmament? Since Senator Kennedy says that he is in favour of such a body in the United States, is it not desirable that on this side of the Atlantic we should use some of our best brains in this constructive way, particularly as, at this moment, we are saddened and dispirited by the breakdown of the Disarmament Conference? It would be something effective that we ourselves could do.

Of course, all these studies are carried out ourselves by our own Departments and experts, but what we have to try to do is to reach an agreement with the Soviet Government and other Governments. I very much deplore what has happened, and I think that it is a very great setback.

Can the Prime Minister tell us whether, in fact, the five Western Powers had agreed on the details of their reply to the Soviet Union, and, if so, will they publish their reply as soon as possible?

Yes, Sir. The five Western Powers agreed, and on the Sunday night they informed Mr. Zorin unofficially of the plan that they would table on the Monday, and this is about to be published.

In order that hon. Members may understand what has happened at Geneva, will the Prime Minister arrange that the minutes of the Committee of Ten Nations are published as a White Paper so that we may know where responsibility lies?

I understand that there is a Question to the Foreign Secretary tomorrow on that matter. I shall certainly call his attention to what the right hon. Gentleman has said, and, if it is for the convenience of the House, it may, perhaps, be useful to publish all the various stages of what will now be the four plans of different kinds which have been put forward, together with an account of the proceedings.

While regretting the decision of the Russian Government to withdraw from the conference, may I ask the Prime Minister whether he will make every possible effort, perhaps through normal diplomatic channels, to try to get the conference going again?

I have received a letter from the Prime Minister of the Soviet Government to which I am just engaged in preparing a reply. I was not informed that he intended to publish his letter to me. I understand that it has been published and, in that case, I shall publish the reply, which I hope to send off today or tomorrow.