asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will consult with the Minister of Housing and Local Government and local planning authorities in London and the Home Counties with a view to formulating a more effective policy for controlling the spread of commercial and industrial development in the area.

I consider that the policy of controlling industrial development in London and the Home Counties by means of industrial development certificates is effective. In operating it, I am in touch with my right hon. Friend and with local authorities. I have no powers over commercial development.

Does the Minister appreciate that, despite the efforts of planning authorities, employment in the area bounded by the Green Belt increased by 91,000 between 1953 and 1958, with consequent pressure on available housing accommodation, and now that the land in the area—not only in the centre but that adjoining the Green Belt—is reaching £100,000 an acre, pressure on planning authorities to permit greater development is increasing, because that is the only thing that can be done economically with land at that price? Is it not essential that there should be co-ordination of land policy for the area as a whole if the build-up of commercial properties in the central areas of the region is not to be intensified?

I agree that the problem of expansion of industrial employment in the London area is a very difficult one. We are operating a fairly stiff policy with regard to it, but it would not be sensible to put a total ban on any additional employment because so much additional efficiency in industry would be lost if we operated any rule as stringent as that.

While I agree that an absolute total ban is impossible, is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied with a situation in which, if he refuses an industrial development certificate for a factory, the Board of Trade does not have to pay any compensation, whereas if a London local authority refuses permission for an office building it is forced to pay heavy compensation? Does not the matter need reconsideration?

It may need reconsideration, but not, I think, by the Board of Trade.

Then, does it not need reconsideration by the Government?

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will particularise his efforts during the last three weeks to bring together the European Economic Community and the European Free Trade Association; what degree of success he has achieved; and what further steps he intends to take to this end.

At the meeting of the Trade Committee in Paris on 10th June it was agreed to establish machinery for examining immediate trade problems which will arise as a result of the formation of the two groups and to continue discussion of the long term at a further meeting.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what industries were considered? Is he aware that the Scottish paper-making and fishery industries and others are vitally interested in the effect which these complicated organisations and reorganisations will have upon their future? What steps is he taking to ensure that such Scottish industries, particularly those in Aberdeen, are adequately protected?

The hon. and learned Gentleman has mentioned one or two industries which may suffer greater competition as a result of the European Free Trade Association. On the other hand, we feel that the gain that will come to Scottish industry as a whole as a result of a widening export market will more than counterbalance the difficulties, and we believe E.F.T.A. to be in the interest of Scotland and, indeed, the whole of the United Kingdom.

Has there been any significant change in the attitude of either the Government or the Common Market Powers which will bring about success in this field?

The position is quite simple. We have said on more than one occasion that we and our colleagues in the Seven are anxious to negotiate with the Six a long-term settlement, and we recognise that, in order to reach agreement, big concessions may be needed. But the Six at the moment are not prepared to negotiate in any way at all about a long-term settlement. Therefore, until there are two parties willing to negotiate, it is difficult to make any progress.

asked the President of the Board of Trade what decisions were reached at the sixteenth session of the Geneva Agreement on Tariffs and Trade at which Her Majesty's Government were represented and which ended in Geneva on 4th June, 1960; what estimate he has made of their effect on Scottish trade and industry; and what steps will be taken to implement these decisions.

The discussion at the session related principally to such general matters as the consistency of the European Free Trade Association with the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade and the desirability of expanding the exports of less-developed countries. The Contracting Parties to the General Agreement took certain formal decisions; for the most part, they were of minor importance and permitted individual Governments to take action which would otherwise have been technically contrary to the General Agreement. As the list of these decisions is rather long, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT. It would not be practicable to estimate the effect of these decisions, if any, on Scottish trade and industry.

Is the Minister aware that certain Scottish industries have been greatly prejudiced by the recent organisations and reorganisations referred to in the Question? What I really want to know is what steps he is taking to protect those Scottish industries.

The Question asked about the decisions taken at the last meeting of G.A.T.T., and I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT the actual decisions taken. The hon. and learned Gentleman will see from that that they have not much relevance to the particular problem which he rightly has in mind.

asked the President of the Board of Trade (1) what decision he has reached on the application of the Moquette Weavers Association for increased duty on Belgian moquettes;

(2) whether he is aware that imports of moquette now constitute 75 per cent. of the total trade in this material; and what reply he has given to the representations of the Moquette Weavers Association on the effect of imports from Belgium.

I am aware of the high level of the imports of moquette. The Board of Trade announced on 16th June that it was considering an application for increased import duties on moquette furnishing fabrics and invited representations from interested parties. A decision will be taken as soon as possible after these representations have been received and considered.

While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for that reply, may ask him why these things take so long? My vision of the Board of Trade is of a Department of diversified activities choked with piles of paper. Why do not things come out quickly?

Because we are determined to get a satisfactory answer, even, if necessary, at the cost of a certain amount of delay. An application was first put in to us in May 1959, but was revised and re-submitted in February of this year. The important thing is to give full opportunity to everyone concerned to put their views to us, because it is not only the home manufacturers who are concerned. It is the home consumer and also the importer. If people are to continue to have confidence in this machinery, it is most important that the Board of Trade should give everyone a full chance to state their case before it reaches its decision. I know that this sometimes causes disappointment, but I think that it is the right policy.

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will remove the import duty on the Reece button-hole machine, details of which have been sent to him by the hon. Member for Wigan.

I will consider an application from a representative body of users for the removal of this duty.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that reply. Does he realise that this import duty discriminates against the small tailoring firms and that its removal certainly will be welcomed by them?

I think that there is quite a problem here about removing the duty, which I will certainly consider if it is put to me, and remission in individual cases. I think that the problem is the rule that for administrative purposes there must be a minimum figure below which applications for remission of duty cannot be considered.

Can the right hon. Gentleman explain to the House the apparently rather extraordinary situation in which the fewer machines a person imports the higher duty he has to pay?

This was the result of the Wilson Smith Committee recommendations in 1954, which imposed a value limit. If the total value of machinery being imported was below £2,000, an application could not be considered. The point was to cut away the very large administrative difficulties involved in handling a great number of applications. It was a rule adopted as a result of the Wilson Smith Committee Report in 1954 and is, on the whole, a sensible rule.

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will introduce regulations to require that oils and petrol shall be delivered to garages and filling stations through approved flow-meters, so as to ensure that garage proprietors and filling station operators get the exact quantities they pay for.

I have no power at present to make such regulations. Proposals for dealing with liquid fuel and lubricants will be included in the Weights and Measures Bill which is in preparation.

I thank the President of the Board of Trade for the information that the new Weights and Measures Bill will cover this point. Can we rely on it that it will be covered in the Weights and Measures Bill when we get it? When are we likely to get the Bill?

It certainly will be covered when the Bill is produced, but on the timing of it I cannot add anything to what I said to the hon. Gentleman last week.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has now decided to refer the distribution of petrol and lubricating oils to the Monopolies Commission for inquiry.

As I told the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Darling) on 23rd June, I am considering further references to the Commission, but I am not in a position to make a statement on what they will be.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is considerable discontent among small garage proprietors; that members of the public are probably being mulcted to provide the very large profits of the oil companies; and that we could very well allow a considerably greater amount of competition? Will he give this very urgent consideration?

I certainly am aware that these views are expressed, and the fact that the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Darling) gave notice that he would raise this on the Adjournment will no doubt stimulate me to more rapid action.

asked the President of the Board of Trade, since unit trusts are debarred from door-to-door selling but insurance companies are not, what steps he proposes to take to safeguard the public now that insurance companies are entering the unit trust field; if he is satisfied that it is in the public interest that direct restraint on unit trusts should be maintained; and if he will make a statement.

Unit trusts are not prohibited from door-to-door selling but no unit trust sells units in this way and I am assured that the insurance company in question does not intend to do so either.

As to the second part of the Question, my Department has been in consultation with unit trust managers about amendments to the Board of Trade requirements and hope soon to receive their comments.

I am obliged for that reply. Would not my right hon. Friend agree that, through unintentional misrepresentation as a result of high-pressure salesmanship, a situation could develop in which people would be buying at the door, which would not be desirable? If that situation were to develop, would my right hon. Friend watch it and ensure that some restrictions were imposed on this method?

We certainly will keep a close watch on it.

asked the President of the Board of Trade how the figure of 10,000 new jobs in County Durham was arrived at; where the jobs are expected to accrue; and by what date.

The figure of 10,000 new jobs in the administrative County of Durham was based on confidential estimates by firms of their future employment within the next four years in new and expanding projects in the County. More than half these jobs are expected to accrue before the end of 1962 and a substantial proportion during 1960 and 1961. They are divided between the different parts of the County, excluding county boroughs, approximately as follows:—

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there has certainly been delay but not satisfaction? My constituency, or the exchange areas which serve my constituency, have had nearly 2,000 people out of work for over twelve months, and the figure is now running at about 1,700 and 100 boys. What steps does the right hon. Gentleman think will be taken, particularly in the mining areas? Very often the development takes place at Aycliffe and other areas. What developments can he anticipate in the mining areas of the south-west of the county?

Taking County Durham as a whole, I think that the position is a good deal better than it was. I entirely agree that there is much more still to be done, but I think that the figure I have given shows that there is probably a lot in the pipeline. In fact, 10,000 is a modest estimate. We can probably go a little higher than that.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we are bound to regard these figures somewhat sceptically in view of our past history, when huge figures of potential employment have been stated but, when they have been worked out, they have been less than half of what we were given?

The House is probably entitled to regard any estimates made by Ministers with scepticism. That is one of the main functions of the House of Commons. Having looked at this closely, I feel that these are pretty firm estimates. They are based on what the companies have told us, and 10,000 is a little below the figure I could have stated if I had given the maximum.

asked the President of the Board of Trade what evidence, by way of research and economic studies, is being taken by his Department in order to assist him in the preparation of a plan to meet the long-term industrial requirements of the County of Durham.

The preparation of development plans is a matter for the local planning authority. My Department is, of course, responsible under the Local Employment Act for determining the development districts in which the assistance provided by the Act can be made available for the encouragement of new enterprises and reports on the industrial situation in parts of the country, including the County of Durham, where special problems reveal a need for additional employment, are made by my regional officers in the area as occasion requires.

That is not enough. Is the President of the Board of Trade aware that what is really needed in the County of Durham is a positive plan that will indicate quite clearly what the county's future industrial prospects are? Is he aware that one-third of the working population of the county is engaged in the basic industries that are now in a phase of contraction? We already have much adult and juvenile unemployment, and the provisions in the Local Employment Act are only scratching the surface of the problem. What is to happen to the county in the future?

I will certainly tell the hon. Member all I can, but I am sure that the preparation of local development plans is best left to local authorities, who understand the position best. In the Board of Trade, we try to steer industrial development into areas like Durham, Scotland and Northern Ireland, where there is a serious unemployment problem, but I cannot predict what will happen in five years' time, because I do not know which industries, in five years' time, will be trying to expand and, therefore, what there will be available to steer.

Is it not the case that there is to be a contraction in the colliery areas? Is any plan forthcoming from the Government to meet that emergency when it arises?

Our plan is to try to steer industry to the area, and from the figures I gave I think that it is quite clear that quite a substantial amount of new employment is likely to accrue to the County of Durham in the next few years.

asked the President of the Board of Trade what response he has received from the United States Government to his request for a relaxation of the United States tariff-quota on imports of woollen goods

I had a helpful discussion of this matter in Washington two weeks ago with representatives of the United States Administration. I am satisfied that they are doing everything possible to find an early solution.

As this is a peculiarly vicious form of restriction and as this argument has now gone on for several years, can the right hon. Gentleman tell us how much longer the industry has to wait for actual action by the United States Government?

I am fairly confident that it will not be very long now.

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will amend the British Standards specification for toughened glass for motor vehicles so as to specify a maximum as well as a minimum number of fragments per square inch.

I have no power to amend a British Standard as my hon. Friend suggests.

If it were possible to specify a maximum number of particles, it would mean that the figure could be low enough to ensure being able to see at least the outlines of objects in the event of a windshield shattering, while at the same time providing the necessary standards of safety.

That sounds a very good argument. I must be very careful on this, because the British Standards Institution is a wholly independent body and I am sure that the Government should not in any way try to influence its decisions.

asked the President of the Board of Trade what further information he will now give concerning payments made to privately-owned companies under the Local Employment Act.

It will be my intention to include in the Annual Report to Parliament on the operation of the Local Employment Act figures showing the total payments made by loan and by grant to private firms under the Act in as much detail as can be disclosed without revealing information about the agreements made with individual firms, which I do not consider it would be proper for me to publish.

Could not my right hon. Friend look at this again and consider giving the House information from time to time, both about the individual firms and the amount, if not the exact terms of repayment? Does he not understand how quite intolerable it is for the ordinary private Members of Parliament to see this spectacle repeated again and again—Parliament authorising action and then not being told the result of that action? I hope my right hon. Friend will take this point seriously.

I have looked at this several times and it worries me a good deal. What we will make available is the amount of money provided by the Government and the results obtained from the provision of that money, but to specify in detail what our confidential arrangements with individual firms were would frustrate our policy, and the readiness of firms to come forward into these areas and accept Government assistance might in a considerable degree be prejudiced if they knew that all that went on between us and them had to be revealed to the House of Commons. I know that it is very difficult, but after looking at it several times I am satisfied that it is the right decision.

Is the Government's reticence in this matter an indication of the need to walk delicately in what is now realised as a foolishly-conceived policy? If not, can we have from the right hon. Gentleman a better justification that he has now given? For example, does he realise that the total amount of loans to individual firms such as Colvilles and Richard Thomas and Baldwins have been disclosed? Why cannot he state, in the form of a White Paper, the actual amounts, even if he has to withhold details of the terms of repayment?

I will certainly look at that. I want to give as much information as possible without frustrating the purpose of the policy which, whether or not my noble Friend agrees, we still believe to be the right policy, but to give individual details of individual contracts with individual firms would really frustrate the purpose of that policy. We want to give the total picture of what the Government are doing. As to loans and grants, I can act only on the advice of B.O.T.A.C., an independent advisory committee. That is a precaution inserted into the Act by Parliament, and I think that it is a good one.

While I think that there is force in the right hon. Gentleman's objection to giving the names of the individual firms—which, after all, follows the practice of the Inland Revenue—could he, without going as far as that, give more particulars, such as the rates of interest on the loans?

I have not yet settled the form of the annual report, in which I am anxious to include as much information as possible. I shall certainly take this suggestion and other suggestions into account when settling the form of the report.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the importance of this matter, I beg to give notice that I shall raise it on the Adjournment.

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will make a statement on his recent talks with the Soviet Trade Delegation in London.

asked the President of the Board of Trade what trade agreement has been made with the Soviet Trade Delegation in London.

These talks were the first of a series of five annual reviews of the operation of the Soviet Five Year Trade Agreement of May, 1959. Since the Agreement, trade both ways has increased substantially, and the range of goods involved has widened.

The two delegations arranged for an increase in the total quotas for consumer goods, which will now amount to £4 million each way, and for the import of Soviet equipment up to a total value of £2·5 million against corresponding exports of United Kingdom goods. The detailed quotas within these totals are to be fixed in discussion with the Soviet Trade Delegation.

They also agreed upon arrangements for further discussions on trade including a Treaty of Commerce and Navigation.

I thank my right hon. Friend especially for the item on consumer goods that the Soviet Union will buy from us. What group of raw materials or goods can the Soviet Union sell to this country to give them the sterling they require to buy the goods we want to sell to them, and so provide more employment here? Did the Russians press for any special group of goods that my right hon. Friend felt could not be included?

They pressed very hard on oil, and we said, "No." The fact is that in recent years the value of Soviet exports to the United Kingdom has been twice as much as the value of the stuff they have bought from us, so I think that they are in a position to buy a lot more from this country. According to the Russian figures, our exports to Russia in the early months of the year have been up about 39 per cent. over our sales there a year ago. If so, I think that this trade is expanding very well.

Did they raise the question of having to divert orders from this country to Continental countries because of the Government's refusal to change their mind about oil imports?

I do not recall that, but the threat to divert orders from one country to another is part of the normal mechanism of trade agreements throughout the world.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has yet had a report from the committee set up towards the end of January this year to report on the machine tool industry; and what action he is now taking to assist the machine tool industry.

I understand that the Sub-Committee has almost completed its inquiries and has started to prepare its report to the Machine Tool Advisory Council. The question whether any further action should be taken to assist the industry will be considered when this is received

While thanking the President of the Board of Trade for that reply, may I ask whether he is aware that since the Report of the Metal Working Machine Tool Productivity Team in 1953, the Government have apparently taken very little action over this vital British key industry? When the right hon. Gentleman is considering help to the industry, are we once again to have a pattern of help in which masses of money will be given to private enterprise without a full report to Parliament? Will he look seriously at the four or five main criticisms—I will not repeat them—made of this industry in the past ten years? Unless Britain does something about this, we shall lose our place industrially in the world.

I think that the pattern of any help to be given to the industry must wait until we see from the report whether such help is needed and, if it is, what form it should take. I ask the hon. Gentleman not to decry too much the efforts of this very important export industry. In the first four months of this year its exports were 38 per cent. up on the same period a year ago—a fine achievement. I am sure that this is one of our most important industries, and a key industry whose products, as the recent exhibition at Olympia showed, compare with any in the world.

asked the President of the Board of Trade why there was a delay of four and a half years in the publication of the Report of the Monopolies Commission on the fertiliser monopolies in this country.

Although the reference was originally made on 29th October, 1955, work on it was much delayed by the discussions which resulted in the Restrictive Trade Practices Act, 1956. After the Report had been received on 23rd July, 1959, the Board of Trade had to consider requests by the parties concerned for the excision of material that might be included in the Report. Publication was further delayed by the printing strike in the autumn of 1959.

While once again thanking the right hon. Gentleman for his reply, may I ask whether he is aware that some of us—perhaps on both sides of the House—feel that these Reports presented to Parliament do not contain the material with which Members should be provided? Can he say why this Report, presented so late, did not give figures of profits and costs after 1957, when we are now in 1960? Is he aware that this industry costs the British public £30 million in subsidies to farmers, and that farmers pay £100 million to the fertiliiser manufacturers? Will he try to get the Report brought up to date, so that Parliament can be honestly and truly informed of the position in the industry?

I think that it was a very good Report and that, by and large, the impression given of the industry is very satisfactory. I think that there was a debate in which the hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey) and my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture took part, and my impression is that the information was then brought up to date.

But it is recognised that the Report is incomplete, because the sulphate of ammonia agreements were excluded from the terms of reference of the Monopolies Commission. Will the right hon. Gentleman do his best to see that this is considered by the Restrictive Practices Court, because until we get those we cannot have a complete picture of the operation of monopolies in fertilisers?

I am afraid that the order and timing of taking cases by that court is in the hands of the registrar, who cannot be influenced by Parliament, but I am sure that note will be taken of what the hon. Gentleman has said.

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will make regulations under appropriate Acts to ensure that accurate measures of the contents, and where practicable a statement of ingredients, are clearly marked on the containers of soap powders, detergents, and similar consumer goods.

I have no power to make such regulations but I am considering the inclusion of proposals about the marking of soap and detergent containers with the amount of the contents in the new Weights and Measures Bill.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that Answer. Has he considered the fact that modern point of sale design techniques make it very easy to produce extremely misleading packages and that the housewife has no means of knowing whether the giant packet of soap powder has in it more or less than the ordinary one?

That is a very interesting point and in framing the Weights and Measures Bill it is the sort of thing that we have in mind, but I cannot prejudge exactly what will be done about it.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that most of these packets are filled by machinery and that the weight is known when it is put into the packet, but that very few of the packets are full when they reach the consumer? If the weight were put upon the packets when they were being filled, it would be of very great assistance to the housewife in enabling her to know that she was not being diddled.

I have precisely that sort of consideration in mind.

Could not we have the price put on these packets, because when one looks at one and sees "3d. off", one never knows what price the threepence is off?

That is a question that I have often wondered about myself and have wanted an answer to, but I have not known to whom to put down a Question.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Co-operative movement already puts the weight of the contents on its packets? If the Co-operative movement can do it, so that the housewife knows how much she has bought for so much cash, is there any reason why other firms cannot do the same? Can the right hon. Gentleman say how long he thinks it will be before the Weights and Measures Bill is introduced?

I cannot comment on the competitive position of the Co-operative movement in these matters. I think that should be left to the consumer. As I have said, the Weights and Measures Bill is nearly ready and I hope very much that it will be introduced in the next Session.

asked the President of the Board of Trade what has been the percentage increase in United Kingdom imports of food, raw materials, and manufactured goods, respectively, in the past six months, compared with the corresponding months one year earlier.

In respect of the six months ending 31st May, 1960, the increases are nil, 21 per cent. and 47 per cent., respectively. The last figure includes materials for further processing.

Are these not rather striking figures which show that the present weakness of our balance of payments is not so much due to increased raw material imports because of industrial expansion as to the relaxations which the right hon. Gentleman has been making in the last eighteen months on imports of manufactured goods?

I do not think so at all. I anticipated that supplementary question. As I said before, the category of industrial or manufactured goods includes a great deal of semi-manufactures which are required for our own industry. So far as I can make out from the figures, which I have studied very closely, the increase in the imports of finished manufactures is related to these liberalisation measures only to a very limited extent. On the other side there has been a very big increase in our export of these things. We cannot expect to sell them abroad freely unless we buy freely.

Why is the increase in the whole class of manufactured goods so much greater than that of raw materials?

It is precisely because in that field people want to buy more things. There is a rising demand not, I think, because of liberalisation. Even without liberalisation measures one would have had an increase of very much the same size in this group.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the area which includes Kirkcudbrightshire and Wigtownshire is the only area in Scotland where unemployment is higher than in June, 1959; and what action he proposes to take to attract new industries to this area.

I am aware that unemployment in the Stranraer Exchange area has risen from 5·6 per cent. in June, 1959, to 6·2 per cent. in June, 1960, but unemployment in the other two exchange areas in Kirkcudbrightshire and Wigtownshire, Castle Douglas and Newton Stewart, has fallen. Stranraer is a development district under the Local Employment Act and the Board of Trade will continue in its efforts to interest firms in this area.

My figures are 1,499 and 1,455. I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman if he does not think that is a serious position in such a large area, and whether he would not consider Dumfries and Dalbeattie very suitable centres for industry and schedule them under the Local Employment Act?

I will look into that point. The figure for Stranraer Exchange area is 6·2 per cent., but that for Castle Douglas has fallen from 2·8 to 2·3 per cent. and that for Newton Stewart from 3·8 to 3·2 per cent. over the last twelve months. There has been a definite improvement there.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how the 6 per cent. Bank Rate and other restrictive measures will help to solve this problem?

It will help to keep the economy of the country stable and sound—

What about Stranraer?

which is of fundamental importance to Stranraer just as it is to any other part of the country.

asked the President of the Board of Trade how many applications for assistance under the Local Employment Act have been received from the Stranraer development area.

None, Sir.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that this is very disappointing, and will he use his influence with other Government Departments, such as the Admiralty, to see whether Government contracts could be placed in the area?

I will certainly look at that. I agree that it is very disappointing, but the fact is that, although we call this area and other areas to the attention of people who are expanding, there has not as yet been any application for help. We shall certainly persist in doing all we can.

Are not the results here most disappointing? Will the President of the Board of Trade ensure that, in the panic to do something, his Ministry does not forget that new industries are wanted in Scotland, and will he tell his Department to stop trying to bribe with financial inducements firms to go out of areas of traditionally unstable employment, such as Kilmarnock, to other areas?

I do not think that my Department is in a panic, nor do I think that we indulge in bribery. The problem in Scotland is to provide more jobs; whether they are from new or from existing industries I am not sure matters one way or the other. The great thing is more jobs.

asked the President of the Board of Trade for what reasons the Treasury has lent £128,000 to Milford Docks, Ltd.; and on what terms.

The loan of £128,000 as announced by the chairman of this company was made under the Distribution of Industry Acts for the purpose of providing the company with finance to enable it to handle the increased business expected to be offered at the dock and thereby to reduce the rate of unemployment in the locality. The terms of the loan are confidential.

Can my right hon. Friend say whether or not this company could have found the finance from normal sources without having recourse to the Exchequer? More generally, now that we have an instance of one chairman who is not quite so shy, does my right hon. Friend think that those companies which are getting admitted and definite advantage from public sources should not have their convenience subordinated to the interests of Parliament and the country?

It is not a matter of their convenience. It is a matter of making the policy work. I am not concerned with the convenience of the companies. I am concerned with getting companies into areas where employment is needed. That is the important thing to bear in mind. On this particular case, the provision in previous legislation was that people could apply to D.A.T.A.C. for help only if they could not get money elsewhere. Under the new legislation recently passed by the House, the condition that the Government should be the lender of last resort no longer obtains.

Have not the Government and Parliament a special responsibility for employment in this area? We built a dockyard there and established hundreds of people there. Then it was closed suddenly and it was left a derelict area. Should not the Government be doing something now to repay the debt that we owe to this community?

I think that what the Government have been doing is helpful. This loan, like other loans, is made in accordance with the recommendation of the independent and expert committee appointed under legislation passed by the House.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what are the causes of the unrest in Nyeri in Kenya; and what steps are being taken by the Government to remove them.

There is some evidence of a revival of secret activity in Nyeri, including the administration of unlawful oaths, and the extortion of money by false pretences and intimidation. The police are vigorously investigating possible offences and a considerable number of people have already been convicted by the courts. In addition the murder of Wambugu Kimathi is still under investigation, and curfews continue to operate on four villages under the Preservation of Public Security Ordinance.

In view of this disquieting news, has the Colonial Secretary examined how far this recent outbreak of violence and recurrent activity is connected with the very low standard of life and the lack of economic opportunities in the area?

Frankly, I doubt that there is a connection there. No fewer than 150 persons have been convicted of extorting money by false pretences, and I do not think that that could be explained by the circumstances to which the hon. Member has referred. Moreover, although the Central Province certainly has economic problems, they are, on the whole, less in Nyeri than in many other places there.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the present minimum adult monthly wage in the rural areas of Kenya; and what are the average wages in the rural areas generally and in the rural areas surrounding Nairobi, respectively.

At present, there is no statutory minimum wage except in Nairobi and other major towns. But discussions on the question of rural wages have been taking place for some time between the Kenya Government and the employers and workers, and the Minister for Labour will shortly put proposals for minimum wage regulations in rural areas to his Advisory Board.

The average monthly wage for employment of all kinds in all rural areas is 99s., and in rural areas surrounding Nairobi 116s., but average agricultural wages are lower than this.

Is not this a matter of real urgency? Has the right hon. Gentleman seen reports that there are jobs available in the rural areas around Nairobi but the wages are so low that it is impossible for workers to support themselves? When his own Labour Commissioner in Nairobi says that 180s. a month is the minimum that should be maintained to support a man and his wife, is it not deplorable that wages of 99s., about half that amount, are being paid?

I do not think that we should attack the problem this way round. The Minister of Labour is putting proposals to his Advisory Board. I will remind the hon. Gentleman—I dare say he knows—that the Minister for Labour is an African, Mr. Ngala, who has an immensely important portfolio and who was, indeed, chairman of the African Elected Members Association at the Lancaster House Conference here. It is enormously important for us not to suggest that he is not doing or cannot do his job. I am quite content to leave the matter to the Kenya Government and in his hands, with his Advisory Board.

But does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the cost of food in Nairobi itself is probably higher than it is here, and this aggravates the problem for men who attempt, quite naturally, to find enough food and shelter for their families?

Yes, it does, but this Question is not concerned only with Nairobi but with all the other areas. I dealt with the Nairobi problem a week ago.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will make a statement about the official opening by the Governor of Kenya of Solidarity House, Nairobi, and, in particular, about the message of Mr. Reuther, the United States trade union leader, which was read at the opening.

The Governor formally opened the "Solidarity Centre" on 19th June. I understand that, contrary to certain Press reports, no message from Mr. Reuther was read out at the opening. Mr. Reuther's message was delivered the previous day at the annual conference of the Kenya Federation of Labour, at which no Government representatives were present.

In either case, will my right hon. Friend draw to the attention of American trade unionists, or do his best to do so, that it is due to British Colonialism that we have the unique association of nations known as the Commonwealth which is expanding year by year in influence and in power?

Yes, I agree, and I have said that firmly on a number of occasions in America. There are two slightly different points here. I disagree firmly with what he said, but I do not wish to attack his right to say it, which is a very different matter.

Will the Colonial Secretary take this opportunity of welcoming the development of strong trade unionism in Kenya?

I am, by and large, in favour of strong trade union movements everywhere.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps he is taking to encourage the growth of political parties in Aden; and whether he will define the term "Adeni", without which definition it is difficult for political parties to organise and plan ahead.

In his address to the Colony Legislative Council on 15th January, 1960, the Governor said that he regarded the development of an effective party system as fundamental to the kind of Parliamentary democracy which it is hoped to attain in Aden. I associate myself with this view. The formation of political parties must, however, be a matter for public action. A definition of "Adenese" has hitherto been attempted only in relation to membership of the Aden Civil Service. In view of the difficulties then experienced, I am not sure that it would be wise at present to introduce the term into any statement of franchise qualifications.

Does my right hon. Friend recognise that there are two difficulties facing political parties in Aden, one being the widespread immigration from the Yemen and the other being the failure to define this term? One may not be able to do much about the former, but will he look again at the latter?

I will certainly look at the latter. In my main Answer, I gave my doubts about the matter, but I am quite content to look at it again.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the number of detainees from Nyasaland; and when he proposes to release them.

Twenty; they will be released when the Governor is satisfied that this can be done without serious prejudice to public security and order.

Does the Colonial Secretary not realise that it simply is not good enough to leave this very important matter to the decision of the Governor? Does he recall that all sorts of dire consequences were predicted if Dr. Hastings Banda were released, but that he himself took action and those predictions have been found to be absolutely false, the situation in Nyasaland being quite tranquil? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the danger that the Nyasaland Constitutional Conference will run into heavy weather unless he takes action to release the political detainees before the Conference begins?

The cases of all these men are under review the whole time, not just at the six-monthly review. I could not associate the holding of the Constitutional Conference with matters like this. I have made it clear on many occasions that these are not matters about which one can bargain; they are matters which must be considered only in the context of law and order.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many hospitals of more than a hundred beds have been built since 1950 in Colonial Territories for which he is now responsible.

I am consulting Colonial Governments and will write to my hon. Friend when I have the necessary information.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many Tanganyikans are in receipt of scholarships at United Kingdom universities and are reading for an honours course.

Thirty-seven, of whom two are reading for honours degrees in science and 14 are taking postgraduate courses.

Will the Colonial Secretary agree that this is a rather small number for a country of 8 million Africans which is closely approaching independence? Is he aware that offers are coming from universities in the United States, and from Iron Curtain countries, for Tanganyikans to go there, and would it not be a good idea if we gave greater encouragement for Tanganyikans to come to British universities?

The full figures are not as small as may, perhaps, appear. The hon. Gentleman's Question, of course, limited my Answer. There are 450 students in all, 77 of whom are at universities, and these, of course, are considerably higher figures that the one I gave. Naturally, I entirely take the point that, for a country which has progressed so far, the more students of this sort it has the better.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many Tanganyikans are now employed in South Africa, having been recruited in Tanganyika by the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association; and what facilities are provided in this respect by the Tanganyika Government.

I am asking the Governor how many Tanganyikans are currently employed in South Africa. The Tanganyika Government operates an employment exchange and transit centre in the Southern Highlands Province through which Africans wishing to proceed to South Africa can offer their services and can be medically examined. Last year, 8,568 Africans were engaged through the exchange for employment with this Association.

Is the Colonial Secretary aware that a number of institutions and individuals are rather concerned at this export of some of the finest Africans from the Territory at a time when it will soon be facing very acute problems in increasing production? Will he investigate further and possibly make a statement later?

I do not think I need investigate here. For many years, it has been common practice for as many as 10,000 people or more a year to go from the country to work in the gold mines. However, some questions on this matter have recently been raised in the Legislative Council in Tanganyika, as the hon. Member probably knows. I should have thought that it would be right, if any action is taken, for it to be initiated there.

Will my right hon. Friend give an undertaking or some information about assurances and facilities in respect of health conditions provided by this Association when recruiting labour? For instance, is it true that workers are taken on at a certain medical standard and that the Association or whoever employs the people concerned guarantees to look after the health of the people so recruited?

The Association does not, in that sense, recruit them. It takes applications from those who volunteer. On the point about medical standards, there is a good deal of very detailed care. I will itemise it in a letter to him, if my hon. Friend 'wishes.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of his responsibility for the care and protection of minors, he will state the death rate for children under 5 in Ndola, Northern Rhodesia; and how many of them died of malnutrition.

I am consulting the Governor of Northern Rhodesia and will write to the right hon. Member when I have his reply.

Is the Minister aware that, according to the Central African Examiner, 60 per cent. of all Africans who died in Ndola last year were children under 5 and that half of these died from malnutrition? Is it not right that the Colonial Secretary should personally inquire into what is a very serious state of affairs?

I have not seen that article. I shall, of course, send for it and look at it. The figures the right hon. Gentleman gives certainly seem to point to a very serious state of affairs. As soon as I have the Governor's reply, I will consider it in the light of what the right hon. Gentleman has said.

If the right hon. Gentleman finds that these figures are true, will he promise the House that he will take very urgent action to improve these conditions?

It is rather a mixed responsibility because the question of malnutrition, both as a disease and a subject, is a federal rather than a territorial matter. I will pursue with the appropriate people the right action as soon as I have seen the report.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether, in view of the fact that discussions with the principal buyers of potash have now been concluded, he will now include potash amongst those fertilisers receiving the benefit of a subsidy.

I am afraid that none of the objections to a subsidy on potash has been removed as a result of these discussions. A major part of our supplies is still obtained through one firm, but competition from other sources is increasing and we shall continue to watch the position.

Does my right hon. Friend realise that that is a very disappointing reply, especially for those farmers who work on land similar to the Chiltern Hills in my constituency and require to use a great deal of potash? Will he make further efforts to remove the remaining difficulty in the way of giving a subsidy for this type of fertiliser?

My hon. Friend will understand that, as matters are, with so much of the supply going through one firm, we would have no assurance that the subsidy, or some part of it, would not be passed back to the supplier, with little or no benefit to those whom my hon. Friend wants to help.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that where intensive cultivation of crops is carried out for a long time over the same parcel of ground, such as strawberries, this type of producer-subsidy is of the utmost value?

Yes, but my hon. Friend should realise that, in spite of the lack of subsidy, farmers and horticulturists are using nearly 80 per cent. more fertiliser than they did in 1952–53.

asked the Prime Minister what steps he took to consult Welsh opinion before making an appointment to the post of chairman of the Broadcasting Council for Wales.

asked the Prime Minister what reply he has sent to the representations made to him by the Broadcasting Council for Wales, protesting against the appointment of Mrs. Rachel Jones as the chairman of the Council.

I naturally undertook consultations before making a recommendation for this appointment. As a result, and after taking into account all the requirements laid down in the Charter, I am satisfied that Mrs. Jones is eminently suitable for this post, and I have replied to the Broadcasting Council for Wales in that sense

Does not that Answer show that there was no consultation with Welsh opinion before this important appointment was made? Is it not the fact that an increasing number of local authorities and other public bodies in Wales are protesting vigorously against this appointment and particularly the way in which it was engineered? In view of the prevailing strong feeling in Wales, is it not high time that the Prime Minister rescinded this decision and made an appointment which at least would be acceptable in Wales and defensible in this House?

I am afraid that I cannot accept those suggestions. I feel that the major part of Welsh opinion feels that the time has now come to allow Mrs. Jones a chance to see how well she can do this job.

As the Broadcasting Council for Wales is composed of distinguished persons of great experience in this sphere, as they are in a special position to assess the qualities needed in a chairman of the Council and as our protests are supported by an overwhelming body of opinion in Wales, will not the right hon. Gentleman reconsider this totally unacceptable and unsuitable appointment?

I cannot accept that this is the responsibility of anybody except the Government.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this appointment has staggered exiles from Wales as much as it has amazed and annoyed people in Wales?

While I recognise that this is a Government appointment, surely the Government are obliged to pay some regard to the Charter which lays down certain requirements. I have never in my experience found an appointment so universally condemned. This is the universal opinion in Wales. I do not think that there are any exceptions to it. There was only one in the Council, and there are obvious reasons for that. Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that he is at present regarded in Wales as having flouted the wishes of the people, particularly the one-third who take pride in preserving their language? Since we want an opportunity to discuss this matter fully on the Floor of the House, will the right hon. Gentleman make available, either in the OFFICIAL REPORT or by putting copies in the Library, the exchange of letters between himself and the Council?

I will consider the second part of the right hon. Gentleman's supplementary question. With regard to the first part, I cannot accept that everybody who does not speak Welsh is incapable of understanding Wales or the Welsh people. The chief accusation against this lady is that she does not speak Welsh, and, as I have pointed out, she shares that disability with two-thirds of her countrymen.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that he is Prime Minister for the whole of the United Kingdom and not speak so patronisingly about a language which is the first language of many of us in the House and of many people in the country? Does he realise that, though he speaks continuously in the way he does about the other one-third of the people, they are, in my opinion, among the best in the country?

I did not speak patronisingly about the Welsh language. It is a very fine language, like the Gaelic language. Quite a lot of people in Scotland speak Gaelic. The view of many people and myself is that the future of the Welsh language depends, to some extent at any rate, on the support of non-Welsh-speaking Welshmen and on general interest in Welsh culture. For this purpose, I believe that this lady is very well suited.

As half the broadcasts in Wales are in Welsh, it is extremely difficult to see how the chairman can do his or her job properly without being able to understand them.

There is such a thing as translation. But the function of this lady is to represent the Welsh point of view with the Governors of the B.B.C. I feel sure that she can adequately and successfully carry out this function.

asked the Prime Minister what communication he has sent to President de Gaulle in connection with the latter's proposal to establish an agency for East-West co-operation in aid to under-developed countries.

It is not customary to disclose the contents or existence of confidential messages exchanged with other Heads of Government, but there have been conversations on this subject with the French Government at various levels.

Will the right hon. Gentleman recall that this valuable but neglected proposal was first put forward by the President in March in Paris and was later repeated in Washington? It was also put forward as a suggested item for consideration at the Summit Conference. In view of its significance, will not the Prime Minister consider revising the proposal and making approaches to Mr. Khrushchev about this important matter?

I am very much interested in this question, which we are still discussing; but, unfortunately, the best opportunity when I hoped it might have been raised has passed from us. We must now seek how best to take up this and other matters at the most appropriate moment.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that in principle it is desirable that we should find some means of working with the Soviet Government in the provision of economic aid for under-developed countries?

At the moment, Western aid is about twenty times as great as the comparable effort of the Sino-Soviet bloc. Do not let us denigrate what we do. If other things had gone as we had hoped, we might have found a valuable field for co-operation between us and the Eastern bloc. That hope for the moment is more difficult, but certainly is not abandoned.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will appoint a Minister for Peace and Disarmament.

No, Sir. The functions which I think the hon. Member has in mind are fundamental to the responsibilities of the Foreign Secretary.

Will the Prime Minister consider rehabilitating the word "peace", and, in view of the great complications and difficulties of understanding exactly what is going on in Geneva, would not it be desirable to have this post so that ordinary persons may see exactly what the Government are trying to do in respect of disarmament?

We on both sides of the House have done our best to contribute to the search for peace. We have had our setbacks, but we have not abandoned hope. As regards disarmament, there is a very complicated situation at the moment. I have tried to explain as best possible the present situation. This may be a matter for debate. But I know the hon. Gentleman's real interest. I will do anything that I can to set forward what he has in mind. I do not think, however, that the appointment of a Minister other than the Foreign Secretary for this purpose would help us.

If on second thoughts my right hon. Friend agrees to this appointment, will he see that the gentleman's first task is to solve the problems of the party opposite?

The hon. Member is about two days out of time.

In view of the failure of the Blue Streak policy and the failure of the Government, and of the Minister of Defence in particular, to provide adequate equipment for Her Majesty's Forces, could not this appointment be transferred to the Minister of Defence?

I am never quite sure which side the right hon. Gentleman is on. But this gives me an opportunity of saying that I ought to have given my congratulations to the Leader of the Opposition. There was a moment when I was getting quite nervous.

Does the Prime Minister propose to ask the permission of Mr. Speaker to reply to Question No. 46, in view of the lack of confidence in the Chancellor of the Exchequer?

Did my right hon. Friend see that, according to today's Daily Herald, the Government are now in a panic? Would he care to comment?