asked the Minister of Labour how many persons were registered for employment in Scotland at the latest date for which figures are available; and what steps he proposes to take to ensure that they will be offered suitable employment in the near future.

The Answer is 69,543 on 13th June. My local officers will continue to do all they can to find suitable vacancies for them.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that Scotland requires something more than generalities? Will not he consult his right hon. Friends and precisely plan the development of employment opportunities in Scotland so that the 69,500 people who are unemployed can look forward to having a job in the very near future?

The Government are doing everything they can to persuade industry to go to development districts, and these cover 77·4 per cent. of those who are unemployed in Scotland.

asked the Minister of Labour how many children left school in Scotland in 1959, and what number failed to find employment; how many are estimated to leave school in 1962; and, on the basis of present employment prospects, how many are likely to be placed in employment.

Out of approximately 62,000 school leavers, 152 who left in the summer and Christmas terms in 1959 were still awaiting employment on 13th June. No figure is available for those who left in the spring term. Some 81,000 will seek work in 1962 and their prospects will depend on the general employment outlook, which, I am glad to say, has lately improved significantly in Scotland.

Does not the Parliamentary Secretary realise that that Answer is not good enough for the people of Scotland? It is a well-known fact that one authority alone is likely to have 5,000 girls and boys unemployed in 1962. Will not he try to give us exact details of the serious nature of the problem so that we will be able to make every effort to provide employment prospects for school leavers?

The Question which the hon. Member asked was how many children left school in 1959 and what number failed to get employment. I gave him the exact figures. He also asked how many it is estimated will leave school in 1962, and I gave him an estimate. He will appreciate that there has been a considerable improvement concerning children over the last year—an increase in vacancies and a decrease in unemployment. The number of vacancies for girls exceeds the number of girls who are unemployed by six times.

Is it not the case that the Government's present economic policies will result in the creation of unemployment—[HON. MEMBERS; "Why?"]— because credit squeezes and 6 per cent. Bank Rates generally have that effect. Therefore, the Ministry of Labour must have serious representations to make to the Chancellor of the Exchequer concerning the opportunities which will arise during the next two years when the bulge will create a very great problem.

I certainly would not agree with the hon. Member's forecast about the result of the Government's economic policy.

asked the Minister of Labour (1) what reply he will make to the letter to his Department of 23rd June from Newcast Foundries, Silverdale, Newcastle-under-Lyme, concerning the granting of deferment of call-up to ex-apprentices in the machine tool industry and allied industries;

A small number of ex-apprentices engaged on engineering work of special importance to the export trade, or connected with important defence projects, have been granted extended deferment. Letters have been sent to the firm mentioned by the hon. Member confirming that their ex-apprentices do not qualify under these limited arrangements.

Is it not clear that Newcast Foundries, in its letter to the right hon. Gentleman's Department, proved that his Department has been granting block deferments for skilled men in certain firms in the machine tool trade and not to others? This cannot be due to the question of exports, because this firm is supplying certain parts to firms for the purpose of making machine tools for export. All these men are involved in the export trade and their skill is vitally required to maintain production.

That is not the case. I have read these letters very carefully. The deferments which have been granted have been to firms in the categories I have mentioned in my reply. This firm does not come into those categories. It is a supplier for the machine tool industry, but is not in the machine tool industry itself. The system is well-known and it has been explained to the firm, namely, that a firm requiring exemption of this kind has to be sponsored by a Government Department. This firm is not sponsored by a Government Department and therefore does not qualify. I hope that it will no longer labour under the misapprehension that it is receiving unfair treatment.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that this firm, which, I agree is very small, is supplying firms for the purpose of export orders? While it is perfectly true that it is not itself involved in the export trade, the loss of skilled labour to it means a drag on the firms which it is supplying and they cannot comply with their delivery dates for export orders.

Yes, but, because firms qualify for exemption because of their own products, it does not necessarily mean that all their suppliers qualify as well. What I have to have is a sponsorship from another Government Department showing that supplies would be affected because of limitations of suppliers if I did not grant these deferments, and that has not been forthcoming.

asked the Minister of Labour what was the number of unemployed in Sunderland at the latest available date; and what were the corresponding figures for 1959 and 1958.

There were 4,780 at 13th June, 1960, 4,401 at 15th June, 1959, and 2,818 at 16th June, 1958.

We welcome the fall in unemployment over the past few months, but does the Minister realise that, if we compare the position over the last two or three years with what is happening now, we find that the employment position is very seriously deteriorating in Sunderland? Further, is he aware that we feel that we are being sadly neglected by the Government, in spite of the right hon. Gentleman's visit to Sunderland? When shall we have some signs that the Government are aware of the deteriorating situation?

The situation has been deteriorating overall for reasons which are well known to the hon. Gentleman, namely, the particular difficulties of the shipbuilding, ship repairing, and construction industries. The sign of the Government's interest surely is that the area is a development district, and, at the moment, from the various sources available, there are 639 jobs in the pipeline.

Will the Minister have a word with the Minister of Transport so that we may have a vigorous, active and positive approach to shipbuilding before matters become much worse?

I am sure that my right hon. Friend will have noted the hon. Gentleman's remarks, but he is fully aware of the position of the shipbuilding industry.

asked the Minister of Labour how many disabled persons registered on the disabled persons register in Sunderland are at present unemployed.

Five hundred and two on 20th June.

I recognise that Remploy is considering extending the factory in Sunderland, but will the Parliamentary Secretary recognise that this can play an important part in relieving the heavy unemployment there is among the disabled, and will he do his best to give Remploy encouragement to enable it to proceed with those plans?

I join with the hon. Gentleman in welcoming the consideration which is being given by Remploy to an extension of the factory in Sunderland.

asked the Minister of Labour what was the number of insured persons in the Crook Employment Exchange area in each of the last ten years; what is the present number; and what are the future employment prospects for the area.

As the answer to the first two parts of the Question consists of a number of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT. Crook is part of a development district and my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade is making continuous efforts to attract new industry there. A considerable number of additional jobs are already in prospect.

Is the Minister aware of the deep concern felt by the three local authorities in this area? Will he accept the figures which I have, namely, that, in my conservative estimation, there has over that period been a migration of about 10,000 people from the area and at the moment there are more than 2,000 young people in secondary schools in my area but there is no work available there? Will he impress upon the Board of Trade the need to do something to stop the migration and keep the young people there?

I could not accept the figures which the hon. Gentleman has given without checking them. They were not the figures for which he asked in his Question and which I gave in my Answer. Generally, as regards migration, the best answer is that more industry should go to this area, and that is what my right hon. Friend is trying to bring about.

asked the Minister of Labour how many boys and girls, respectively, have been apprenticed through the commercial apprenticeship scheme; and what percentage this represents of the annual recruitment into commerce of juveniles in the age group concerned

One hundred and seventy boys under 18 years of age have been apprenticed under the commercial apprenticeship scheme of the Association of British Chambers of Commerce from its inception in May, 1957, until 31st August, 1959. So far, no girls have been apprenticed. I cannot say what proportion this is of total recruitment into commerce as the figures do not distinguish commerce from clerical employment generally.

Is not this figure pitifully small, and does not the Minister think that he should use his influence with the banks and the insurance companies, for example, which give practically no day-release, to get them to help in the scheme? Can he not take more energetic steps to do something about it?

I agree that the figure appears to be small, but it must be appreciated that this scheme is not intended as a general training scheme for boys and girls entering commercial employment but is for the training of potential candidates for executive posts. It is some encouragement to know that it is expected that there will, this year, be an increase of about 50 per cent. in the numbers entering the scheme.

asked the Minister of Labour how many registered unemployed in Ayrshire are in districts listed for aid under the Local Employment Act; and how many are in unlisted districts.

At 13th June, 1,722 in the development districts of Ayrshire and 2,220 in the rest of Ayrshire.

Will the Minister compare those figures with what he said in answer to a supplementary question by my hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie (Mr. Dempsey) when he said that virtually 75 per cent. of the unemployed in Scotland were in development districts, and will he appreciate that the development district has been drawn far too narrowly in Ayrshire and invite the Board of Trade to do something about that as well as trying to draw some industry into Ayrshire to improve the figures?

My Answer does not contradict the answer I gave the hon. Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie. As was constantly explained during the debates on the Bill when it was passing through the House, the policy is to concentrate development districts on the areas with densest unemployment, that is to say, where the need is greatest. In some cases, it will obviously happen that, over a larger area, there is a greater number of unemployed.

Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that when the Distribution of Industry Acts went out of commission and the present Local Employment Act came in, my hon. Friends were very sceptical about the changes in the development areas then and we asked the Government to keep a careful watch on areas which were formerly development areas but which are not now scheduled? Will the Minister say, taking the old areas as a basis, what has been the effect now that they have been de-scheduled?

I could not answer that without notice. If the hon. Gentleman will put down a Question, I will gladly answer it. Of course, these areas are kept continually under review.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will state, for the latest available date, the number of unemployed in Ayrshire and Kilmarnock, respectively.

There were 3,942 in Ayrshire and 751 in Kilmarnock at 13th June.

Does the Minister realise that Ayrshire is a county of seaside resorts and the centre of the tourist industry, and that figures like those at this time of the year are really deplorable? Will he once again promise to see the President of the Board of Trade to get something done in this county?

Of course, my right hon. Friend will see the comments which the hon. Gentleman has made, but the figures have declined much more than seasonally this summer—529 in Ayrshire between May and June and 25 in Kilmarnock—and in Kilmarnock the percentage of 2·6 is, of course, lower than the average for Scotland as a whole, which is3·2 per cent.

Will the Minister accept that we in Ayrshire take a very dim view of the attitude of complacency on the part of the Government towards this problem? We still have 4,000 unemployed, whereas I doubt that we had 1,000 under the Labour Government.

There is absolutely no complacency in the Government. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will be pleased to know that there are about 11,088 jobs expected to accrue in Ayrshire, of which 591 are in Kilmarnock.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will invite representatives of employers and trade unions to consider with him the human and industrial problems of the next five years.

I am, of course, in regular contact with representatives of employers and trade unions through the various advisory bodies concerned with special aspects of these problems. I am also frequently in touch with them in many other more informal ways.

Is the Minister aware that in the 1959 election programme of the Conservative Party, in the section which was somewhat ironically entitled "Sharing Prosperity", a pledge was made to call such a conference as I have indicated in my Question? When will the right hon. Gentleman redeem the pledge, or will it be one of the many unredeemed pledges of this Administration?

This Administration is continually in process of redeeming its pledges. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh"] That is why the hon. Member for Brixton (Mr. Lipton) is so upset. I am perfectly ready to enlarge consultation with both sides of the industry when a suitable opportunity occurs.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will make a statement about his plans for the advisory board on the resettlement of ex-regular Service men.

The Advisory Board was appointed in July, 1957, for a two year period and re-appointed last year for a further twelve months. As the arrangements for resettlement are now operating smoothly, and ex-regulars are being readily accepted in commerce and industry, the special advice of the Board is no longer required. I have therefore decided, after consultation with the Chairman, that it should not be re-appointed. My Departmental machinery for assisting ex-Regulars will continue unchanged and the Resettlement Committees in Scotland, Wales and the regions of England have been re-appointed.

I would like to thank Sir Frederic Hooper and the members of the Board for the time and effort which they have so willingly and successfully devoted to this work.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that his expressions of gratitude to Sir Frederick Hooper will be widely shared throughout the House? Can he say whether this action will in any way affect the voluntary associations which help ex-Regulars into employment?

No, Sir. The relations with voluntary associations will remain exactly the same, and we shall continue our present close co-operation with them.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty if he will make a statement on the findings of the court of inquiry into the damage to H.M.S. "Jaguar"; and if he will now estimate the approximate cost of the repairs.

The Board of Inquiry found that shot blast grit was present in the lubricating oil system of the main engine which failed. The grit was, or had been, present in the main engines, probably before the acceptance trials. There is no question of sabotage

The detailed investigations in hand have not yet produced enough evidence to enable us to define the exact scope of the repair work required. Any estimate quoted at the present time would therefore be unreliable.

How soon will the Civil Lord be able to give an estimate? If he cannot give it by next Wednesday, which will be the last occasion on which he will be answering Questions before the Summer Recess, will he make a statement before the House rises, since a good deal of public money seems to have been wasted?

I am certainly prepared to promote or encourage a Question at the right moment. I do not expect that it will be very long. As the hon. Member will know, we have to take the engine down and meticulously examine every part of it, and that is a long process, before we can assess exactly what has to be done. In the meantime, this ship has been replaced by another ship in her class.

At what stage did this grit get into the oil? Can the hon. Gentleman give any indication of when it happened?

I cannot go much further than I did in the original Answer. It very probably got in before the acceptance trials. We have not been able to pinpoint it more closely at present.

I understand, therefore, that the inquiries have shown that it was "probably" before the trials?

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty whether he will make a statement about the experience so far gained with H.M.S. "Bulwark" since her employment as a commando carrier.

Although it is early days, since H.M.S. "Bulwark" has been in commission as a commando carrier for only three months, first reports are promising. Trials show that she can successfully fill her primary rôle and that in an emergency she could transport a second commando of about 600 men. We have also had very good reports on the air-conditioning system and the excellent effect it has on the overall efficiency.

As the trials have proved a success, can my hon. Friend say when it is likely that a second commando carrier will be provided?

H.M.S. "Albion" has been selected for this and preliminary work has already been authorised.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty when he expects the first N.A.39 Squadron to be in operational service.

It is not customary to disclose or forecast such information. I can say that the trials with several aircraft of the development batch have been going very well.

Can my hon. Friend say how the sales of this outstanding aircraft to our foreign allies are proceeding?

That is really a question for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Aviation, but my hon. Friend will know that it is part of Government policy under interdependence to try to interest N.A.T.O. and Commonwealth allies in now forms of armament in all the Services.

The hon. Gentleman so far has not been able to interest the R.A.F.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that the naval ratings who lined the streets on the occasion of the wedding of Her Royal Highness Princess Margaret were wearing white gloves; whether this is required by the uniform regulations; and on what occasions sailors must wear white gloves.

Yes, Sir. Wearing of white gloves is authorised for naval guards of honour at important ceremonial occasions in the United Kingdom between 1st October and 30th April. This instruction was issued last year in Admiralty Fleet Orders and is being incorporated in the next edition of the uniform regulations. The wearing of these gloves was extended as a special case to the naval street-lining parties on this occasion, as it was considered that they would look smarter.

While I am sure that everyone will agree that, as ever, these men looked very smart indeed, may I ask my hon. Friend whether, nevertheless, he is aware that there are many people who do not regard the wearing of white cotton gloves by seamen as entirely appropriate? Can my hon. Friend at least give us an assurance that we shall not see anyone in tropical rig wearing long white cotton gloves?

In answer to the first part of my hon. and gallant Friend's supplementary question, I would say that the Royal Marines have always worn white gloves and so have other Services. Therefore, this brings the Royal Navy into line with the other Services. I think that the House generally will agree that these men looked smart. I certainly note the last point and I assure my hon. and gallant Friend that there is no question of lengthening this issue.

Are the gloves an Admiralty issue or a Government issue or were the ratings required to pay for them?

They were an issue.

Since when has it been the custom of the Royal Navy to follow the custom of the other Services?

When the other Services happen on something which we believe is worth copying, we copy it, but generally they copy us.

In whose head did this curious little hit of whimsy emanate?

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty what plans have been made for the Royal Navy to celebrate, on 24th July, the 256th anniversary of its victory at Gibraltar in the Western Mediterranean.

None, Sir.

Does my hon. Friend recall that this "impregnable" fortress was captured by a naval landing party of a detachment of the Royal Marines in an action which lasted less than four days? As this fortress of Gibraltar has been a valuable asset to the country ever since, does not my hon. Friend think that this occasion merits an annual order to the Fleet to splice the mainbrace?

I will bear in mind what my hon. Friend has said and have a look at the matter.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty whether consideration of the Report of the Committee on Lower-Deck Structure has yet been completed.

No, Sir.

When will consideration of this Report be completed? The Admiralty has now had the Report far two years or more. Is it not really time that it finished its studies?

I agree that we have had this Report for about two years. It raises a number of fundamental issues about the careers of all ratings and it would be wrong to come to a quick or indefinite decision before we have thoroughly considered all the implications both on the efficiency of the Navy and on the careers of the men affected.

When are we likely to learn the results of the consideration?

I can only say that the Board of Admiralty is examining each facet of these recommendations. We are having a long discussion on them and we are trying to come to some proper conclusions which will benefit the Navy and the men.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty what protests he has received concerning the threatened withdrawal of the assisted travel scheme at Rosyth Dockyard; and how soon he expects to come to a decision on the matter.

Apart from a memorandum sent to me by my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, East (Sir J. Henderson-Stewart) and the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. W. Hamilton), I have received no protest about this. I cannot say when the review of this scheme will be completed but we would give three months' notice of any change that we decided on.

Is the Minister aware that the trade unions concerned are very perturbed at the prospective withdrawal of this scheme, and that it will mean that many workers will be faced with a substantially increased outlay per week and that many of them, who travel very far, will probably have to give up their jobs? Is he aware that this is at a time when it is very difficult in Scotland to obtain an alternative job? Will he undertake to keep these considerations in mind before he gives a decision?

We have always tried to make it clear that this form of travel aid is no part of wages and was not to be so considered. I understand what the hon. Member has said. We will certainly allow time for representations to be made before any changes are made. The men pay the first 6s. of their own travelling costs. After that, about 1,000 men receive 3s. or less a week assistance; another 1,000 receive between 3s. and 9s. a week assistance; and a further 500 receive between 9s. and 21s. a week assistance. We have also to bear in mind the interests of the taxpayers as well as the interests of others. I will certainly see that this matter is carefully considered before any decisions are reached.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty whether he will now make a statement about further North Atlantic Treaty Organisation projects in Argyll.

After receiving competitive tenders the Admiralty has now awarded the main contract for the construction of a N.A.T.O. oil fuel depot at Loch Striven to Messrs. Melville Dundas and Whitson Ltd. of Glasgow. The work is expected to take two years to complete, and the cost to be about £2 million.

While thanking my hon. Friend for that statement, which will give great pleasure, I am sure, to my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll (Mr. Noble), may I ask whether he is aware that this statement will be accepted by the building and civil engineering industries in Scotland as a most useful contribution, which they sorely need, to using plant and labour? Will he say whether this is additional work to that which is at present going on?

I gladly confirm that this is in addition to the Glen Douglas scheme, which will cost £¾ million; to the Macrihanish scheme which will cost over £1 million; to the boom defences at Fairlie, which in total will be over £3 million; and to the Rosneath scheme, which is to cost £300,000.

Is the Minister sure that those figures are right? The Minister of Labour has just explained to me that when he told the House, in reply to my supplementary question on Question No. 10, that there were 11,088 jobs in the pipeline, he meant 1,188 jobs.

I was expecting a warm welcome of cheers from the other side of the House. Up to that time it seemed to me that they were most anxious to have more jobs in Scotland. I have now announced how this might come about.

Will the Minister keep in mind that these jobs do not add to the economic plan for reconstructing the industries of Scotland, that they do not assist the recovery of essential industry in Scotland and that they are a waste of money on purely military and naval projects and will eventually lead to pools of unemployment?

We believe in being loyal to our N.A.T.O. commitments. Some of these projects may have commercial as well as military advantages.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty whether he will make a statement about the completion, this year, of H.M.S. "Lion".

H.M.S. "Lion" will be commissioned on 20th July, 1960, and accepted from the shipbuilder on 22nd July. She will be the second of the Tiger Class cruisers to be accepted into service. These ships, with their automatically controlled armament and other up-to-date equipment, long endurance and extra command facilities will be a most valuable addition to the strength of the Navy.

While thanking my hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask whether he can say when the third Tiger Class cruiser is due?

I cannot. I think that it would be wrong at this stage to give a firm date. If my hon. and gallant Friend puts down a Question in due course, I shall be happy to try to answer it.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty if he will make a statement in regard to the recent fire in the Royal William Victualling Yard, Devonport.

On 1st July, a fire broke out on the second floor of the East Loft Bakery Block at the Royal William Yard, Devonport. The Dockyard Fire Brigade and the City of Plymouth Fire Brigade were called in and the fire was extinguished about four hours later. There were no casualties.

Investigations are still being carried out as to the cause of the fire.

While thanking my hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask him to remember that this is a very beautiful building by Sir John Rennie? I hope that he will find it possible to rebuild this section. Will he assure me that, in the meantime, while investigations are going on, no men will be dismissed?

I am aware that this building has a very nice façade but until structural surveys have been completed it would be wrong to announce our future intentions about the building. I can assure my hon. Friend that no people will be dismissed as a result of this fire.

Will my hon. Friend tell me whether in this case normal fire insurance was carried?

No. The Government Departments and Service Departments do not carry normal fire insurance. They carry their own risks.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty if he will make a statement on the introduction of the 42-hour week in Her Majesty's Dockyards.

As from 3rd July the conditioned weekly hours of industrial employees in Her Majesty's Dockyards at home have been reduced to forty-two.

We have received assurances from the trade unions of co-operation in every possible way to ensure that the shorter working week will lead to no loss of production and they have accepted a general obligation to assist in measures designed to increase efficiency.

While thanking my hon. Friend for that Answer, which I am sure will be very satisfactory to all concerned, may I ask whether it has been agreed that the breakfast break, which they used to get on arrival—between ten and thirty minutes of arrival—is a wartime anomaly and is to be stopped?

Yes. We had a meeting of the Admiralty Industrial Council on this matter and the trade unions agreed that this was rather an old anomaly which should no longer exist. There will be other breaks during the day but not immediately after arrival.

Is the Minister aware that the Government have no reason to congratulate themselves on the long-drawn-out negotiations which took place before a decision was reached and that, particularly in a factory in my constituency, industrial relations have certainly not been assisted?

This is probably not the right moment to start a long debate on the long-drawn-out negotiations in the J.I.C. and other councils, but there are two sides to the case. If the hon. Member is right in saying that labour relations have been roughened, I hope that this settlement, particularly in our own dockyards, will re-establish confidence in the Whitley Council and its workings.

asked the Secretary of State for War what was the total expenditure last year on the Microbiological Research Establishment, Porton; how much was spent in developing or manufacturing cholera, typhus, diphtheria, parrot fever, dysentery, plague, and botulinus germs and viruses, respectively; and if he will stop any further preparation for germ warfare.

It would not be in the public interest to give the figures asked for. With regard to the future, I would refer the hon. Member to the answer of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence on 23rd March this year, when Government policy in this respect was plainly stated.

Is it public security which prevents an Answer or is it public revulsion? Will the Minister admit that such research has taken place and, secondly, that stocks of botulinus toxins have been built up?

Research is taking place constantly. I noticed a piece by the hon. Member in a periodical recently in which he said,

"I confess that my blood ran cold as fact after fact"

about germ warfare

"was driven home"

at meetings in the House of Commons. In view of that, I thought that he would be glad to know that steps were being taken to ensure that we keep abreast of movements in this field in order to be able to protect ourselves.

asked the Secretary of State for War if he will state the latest recruitment figures.

The figure for the Army for the month of May is 2,480 compared with 2,169 in April. Full details covering all three Services will be published this afternoon in the normal way.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman have any anxiety about the figures? Are they coming up to expectations? If not, what does he propose to do about it?

Projecting the recruiting figures forward to the end of 1962, we have no reason to alter the opinion of either myself or my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence, which has been frequently stated in the House, that we will achieve an all-Regular Army of 165,000 in the early days of 1963.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman making assumptions which are not justifiable on the facts and figures? Are the recruiting figures coming up to expectations or are they below expectations? Surely it is upon the basis of those figures that we make our estimates.

This has been worked out on the basis of facts and figures and not on the basis of assumptions and guesses as to what will happen in the next months or years.

Are our defence commitments fitted to recruiting figures or vice versa?

Recruiting figures of voluntary service must be regulated by the number of men who are prepared to come forward and join the Army.

asked the Secretary of State for War what is the cost of the 500 Malkara anti-tank rockets ordered from Australia to equip the Royal Armoured Corps; and why this order was placed despite the fact that the weapon was cumbersome and already out of date.

Some 400 missiles have been ordered at a cost of about £1 million. Others will follow. Malkara is air-portable, accurate, highly lethal against the heaviest tank at considerable range, and is already in production. It will be a most valuable addition to our armoury.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that some of us know that there are always difficulties in ordering equipment like this? Can he explain why it is that Australia has abandoned this weapon because it is cumbersome and is not effective, while the British Government go ahead? Is it not time that somebody somewhere had a policy of building up our hardware instead of spending public money on equipment that is useless?

I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman knows the reasons why the Australians have not ordered this weapon. I must make it clear that it was developed in Australia on our behalf and to meet our needs. It was not developed to meet the needs of the Australian Army, which is concerned with the much more restrictive conditions of jungle warfare. I would have been very surprised if the Australians had decided to adopt this weapon, because it does not fit their needs.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that I saw this weapon last month when it was shown to many hon. Members? I found it to be extremely effective for both moving and stationary targets at varying ranges.

I am grateful to my hon. and gallant Friend for those comments. I wish the hon. Member for Leek (Mr. Harold Davies) had been able to see it for himself.

How many of our N.A.T.O. allies have accepted this weapon and are prepared to buy it?

It has not been sold to any other N.A.T.O. countries at present.

asked the Postmaster-General if he will prohibit the use of officially-approved postal franking machines for printing advertisements encouraging drinking before driving an example of which has been sent to him by the hon. Member for Leicester, North-West.

As my right hon. Friend informed the hon. Member the particular slogan to which he refers was intended to advertise a book. Unfortunately, it was clearly liable to misinterpretation, and as soon as it came to notice it was withdrawn under longstanding arrangements which are designed to preclude the sort of advertisement the hon. Member has in mind.

While expressing my gratitude to the hon. Lady for the expeditious way in which this was dealt with, in view of the fact that such a statement as

"Time Gentlemen, please! One For the Road."

actually appeared on this franking, what kind of precautions does she intend to take to ensure that such a serious statement as that should not be contained in an allowed franking arrangement?

This was a regrettable error. Steps have been taken to ensure that the rules are not infringed any more.

How closely does the hon. Lady watch these franking developments? This is not the first mistake in recent months. We had the shocking franking recognising refugee year when the open hand appeared against the Monarch's head. Is there not need for closer scrutiny by the Post Office?

Regrettable errors have occurred, but to err is human, and we have been very unfortunate in these instances.

asked the Postmaster-General (1) what sub-offices are available in the borough of Bournemouth within one mile from Bear Cross Parade, Anchor Road, Bournemouth; and what is the extent of the counter space in each case;

There are three sub-post offices in the Borough of Bournemouth within a mile of Bear Cross Parade, Anchor Road. They are Cunningham Crescent, West Howe, and Kinson, and the lengths of their counters are 10½ feet., 10 feet. and 15 feet respectively. Also within a mile is the Bearwood sub-office, in the Borough of Poole, which has a counter 7 feet, long. I am sorry that in a letter sent to my hon. Friend in January it was wrongly stated that there were only three offices within a mile of Anchor Road. I am afraid I should not be justified in authorising yet another office in this area.

Is my hon. Friend aware that, whilst I appreciate that she has given this very full consideration, her Answer will, nevertheless, disappoint a very large number of people who have recently come into this area? Will she give an assurance that her mind is not closed on this subject and that the needs of this area will have top priority on her list?

I am very glad to give an assurance that we will keep this under review. My hon. Friend is quite right in saying that there has been considerable housing development in this district. Within half a mile of this arcade the population has risen, I think, from 2,000 to 7,900. The difficulty is that these offices are badly sited. We shall keep this in mind.

asked the Postmaster-General what are the reasons for the delay in his negotiations with the West Sussex County Council regarding the lease of Post Office premises for use by the proposed county library at Crawley; and if he will make a statement.

The County Council, the Post Office, and the Ordnance Survey will be sharing the use of this building, and the settlement of the details of the lease gave rise to some complications. I am sorry that it has all taken so long, but agreement on all points of substance has now been reached, and the Council took possession of its part of the premises on 25th June.

While I thank my hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask whether she is aware that there is very strong local feeling that the Post Office authorities have delayed this matter quite unnecessarily? Is she further aware that there is a strange coincidence between the agreement finally come to and the date on which I originally put this Question on the Order Paper?

I realise that there has been some delay in this matter. It has been a very complicated one. On 25th March we suggested to the Council that it could take occupation in advance of formal agreement. It was not prepared to do that, however. The offer was repeated on 5th May and the Council took occupation on 25th June.

asked the Postmaster-General what plans he has for the eventual introduction of long-range telephone, teleprinter and television circuits routed via the moon, satellites or other space bodies; and what research his Department is carrying out on this new low-cost method of communication.

The possibilities of space communications are under close study by my officers and other organisations. It is, however, impossible for me to say whether such techniques will provide reliable or economical means of communication.

Is my hon. Friend aware that I am not asking the Post Office to reach for the moon in that sense? The American Post Office is already operating a successful long-distance, low-cost teleprinter service across the Pacific, and scientists, at any rate outside the Post Office, consider that this is the probable pattern of long-range communications for the future?

I agree with my hon. Friend. The Post Office has always prided itself, in its 300 years of existence, on being well ahead of other people, and we are treating this as a matter of urgency.

While accepting the last part of that reply, may I ask the hon. Lady two questions? Is the Post Office Research Department keeping in close liaison with Jodrell Bank on this very interesting scientific possibility? Secondly, would it not be in the national interest for the British Government to give further financial assistance to Manchester University and to the Jodrell Bank authorities in order that there can be a still more intensive search into these possibilities, at the same time helping to prevent some of our leading scientists in this subject from accepting very tempting offers from the United States and other countries?

The answer to the first part of the supplementary question is. "Yes" The second is not necessarily for the Post Office, but the Post Office is always glad to have more money for research

asked the Postmaster-General whether he will sanction the British Broadcasting Corporation to expedite the construction of the satellite station near Llandrindod Wells both for very high frequency radio and television inasmuch as the equipment is available; and whether he will give an assurance that the service will be available before next year.

The B.B.C. does not need such sanction from my right hon. Friend. It tells us that it is pressing on as fast as it can with this station, but it cannot promise operation before the early summer of next year.

Although her right hon. Friend has no power to direct the B.B.C., could the hon. Lady use her charming manner in order to ask it to do so? I do not want to see my constituents spending another Christmas without proper television reception, and with the bad weather in Wales they want to hear the radio at times.

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the B.B.C. is pressing on with this as quickly as possible.

Will the hon. Lady convey to the B.B.C. that we are of the impression that it has "ratted" on an undertaking given to a delegation of Welsh Members in connection with this matter?

I am sure that it will take note of the right hon. Gentleman's observations.

asked the Postmaster-General if he will exercise his powers under Section 15 (4) of the Licence and Agreement to require the British Broadcasting Corporation to refrain from sending any television matter involving a display of violence.

No, Sir.

Is the hon. Lady satisfied that the B.B.C. exercises adequate scrutiny over programmes of this sort and is not in unhealthy competition with the commercial service?

I assure the hon. Member that the B.B.C. watches this matter very carefully. Hon. Members will probably be aware of the B.B.C.'s recently published guide note for producers of television programmes. The B.B.C. is well aware of this problem, but it would be helpful if specific difficulties could be brought to its attention.

Is the hon. Lady aware that the other night a television programme showed someone being hanged? Is that the sort of thing which should be encouraged?

I did not see that programme, but I have heard that it drew a great deal of public comment.

asked the Postmaster-General how many vehicles have been fitted with a telephone instrument; if he is satisfied with the progress of this service; and if he will make a statement.

I think the hon. Member has in mind the experimental radiophone service in South Lancashire. Fifty-four vehicles are now fitted with these telephones. The service is growing, but not as rapidly as I should like. Nor is it as yet economic. As to our future plans, I would refer the hon. Member to the detailed information which the Postmaster-General is circulating in today's OFFICIAL REPORT.

Is not the hon. Lady aware that it is not growing because it is not a satisfactory service? Is she not aware that a customer has to pay £200 for a set, it costs £30 in licence fees, and 10d. per minute to use, and that there is no privacy, no secrecy in using this telephone instrument? It is commonplace to listen in on cotton deals, sales of machinery, and private and intimate personal conversations. If the hon. Lady does not do something about ensuring secrecy on these telephone instruments, then telephone tapping in this service may even become a business.

This new service is having teething troubles, but my right hon. Friend is looking at it carefully.

asked the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been called to a leaflet, published by a Fascist body, sent to him by the hon. Member for Leeds, West, which is one of many deliberately left in telephone books in the City of Leeds; and what steps he will take to protect users of Post Office facilities from seditious libels in public places for which he is responsible.

My right hon. Friend's attention has been drawn to this leaflet.

So far as Post Offices premises are concerned, our staffs try to keep them free from any matter which may be offensive to our customers.

As to the incidents referred to by the hon. Member, I am informed that the proper authorities are keeping a close watch on these people and on their offensive propaganda, and will take prompt action if there is any contravention of the law.

Is the hon. Lady aware that, when I sent this leaflet to her right hon. Friend, I thought that he would consider the matter sufficiently serious to send it on to the Director of Public Prosecutions for him to decide whether there was any ground for an action for seditious libel? Bearing in mind that the leaflet bore the imprimatur of the printers, the Combat Press, of 116 City Road, London, is this not a serious matter which might lead to civil disorder in the City of Leeds? Is not the hon. Lady aware that in the opinion of some of us there is a plain duty on her right hon. Friend to stop this practice?

The issue is one of sedition, and responsibility for that comes under the Home Office, whose attention has been drawn to the matter and which is keeping a watch on it.

Can we know what this pamphlet says, and can it be circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT?

This is one of a series of pamphlets and I do not think that any good purpose would be served by following the hon. Member's suggestion.

asked the Postmaster-General what plans he has in mind for making the telephone service more attractive, for reducing the waiting list, and for eliminating the shared-line service.

Our objectives for the telephone service were described in the White Paper (Cmd. 973) published last March. Some of the matters mentioned by the hon. Member depend on the capital resources available and the rate at which new applications are received. On others my right hon. Friend hopes to make a statement in the House today.

Is the hon. Lady aware that things are gradually getting worse in the Telephone Department of the Post Office; that there are still 147,000 people waiting for telephones and still 1 million using shared lines; that there is a demand for telephones, and that unless we get more subtle tariffs introduced, so that people will be encouraged to use telephones more when they get them, as well as encouraging the Treasury to hand over more money for telephone development, those potential customers will be lost?

I assure the hon. Member that the hard core of the list numbers 50,000 and that the others are in the pipeline and are being attended to. Last year we connected 400,000 new telephones and with a buoyant economy the waiting list is always growing. We have this matter very much in mind. The hon. Gentleman will find that my right hon. Friend is well aware of all the possibilities suggested in the second part of the hon. Member's supplementary question.

asked the Secretary of State for Air if he will ask the United States Government not to allow the National Aeronautics and Space Administration to repeat the U2 flights which have taken place from Laken-heath, England.

I have nothing to add to the reply which my right hon. Friend gave to the hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) on 21st June.

Is that evasion good enough, since the lives of every man, woman and child in our country may be lost in the event of another U2 incident? Will the Under-Secretary confirm or deny a statement by Mr. Hugh Dryden, deputy chief of N.A.S.A., testifying in Washington on 2nd June, that such flights had taken place from the American base at Lakenheath, Norfolk?

I have no desire to be discourteous to the hon. Member or to The House, but I am not prepared from this Box to confirm or deny anything of that kind.

rose—

On a point of order. May I seek your guidance, Mr. Speaker? First, I put down this Question to the Minister of Defence, who was then top of the list for answering Questions, three weeks ago. It was transferred to the Secretary of State for Air. Yesterday, the Prime Minister told the House that if this Question were put down, he would answer it. Therefore, is the House not entitled to an answer now?

I do not want to use up the rest of Question Time, but I am afraid that I may have to do so. The situation is extremely complicated and there is also involved in this context a Question by the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. de Freitas). The House knows the princple—we had it in connection with Questions relating to the nationalised industries. This is the one instance where the conduct of Ministers governs the operation of the rules of the House, in the sense that a refusal to answer a Question of a given class results in Questions of that class no longer being accepted by the Table. That is the difficulty.

The House will remember that a Question asked of the Secretary of State resulted in an Answer rather like that which has just been given by the Under-Secretary. Thereafter, the Table operated on the principle that that class of Question was therefore barred. The Question of the hon. Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun) would have been condemned under that principle had it not been deferred, as he knows. We then took the view that, in view of what the Prime Minister said yesterday, the situation had changed from the point of view of the Table and that we could rightly allow Questions of this kind. We have done so and that is why there has been a change in the Table's practice for the moment. I say nothing about what the Answer of the Prime Minister may be, or what may be its form—I do not know—and I am not criticising anything that happens here. I am simply explaining, in answer to the point of order, what has happened.

The Under-Secretary said that he would not confirm or deny reports on an issue which the people of Britain are entitled to have clearly put to them by Her Majesty's Ministers. Have these aircraft taken off from Laken-heath? Did they take off without permission or did they not? We can then consider what is the right thing, but should not Ministers stand up and say what they did on those occasions?

I was referring to a supplementary question put by the hon. Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun) which referred to evidence given before a United States Senate Committee which I did not feel was a matter for me.

The words the Under-Secretary used were, "I am not prepared to confirm or deny"—[Interruption.]—this must be a peculiar Tory mentality. The lives of British people are at stake and the whole policy of Britain is a stake. If Ministers want to persist in denying that, that is O.K. and I will leave it, but I want there to be no misunderstanding—the Minister is refusing to answer yes or no to the Question—[Interruption.]—I will go on when you shut up.—[HON MEMBERS: "Order"]—

If the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) wishes to make observations, he must address them to the Chair.

I beg your pardon, Mr. Speaker, but it helped to get a break in the conversation. May I ask the Minister whether aircraft took off from Lakenheath and, if so, did we know they were taking off?

I have nothing to add to what I have already said.

Is the hon. Member aware that in answer to a supplementary question yesterday the Prime Minister, with some reluctance, eventually agreed to answer if such a Question were put down?

My hon. Friend is not the Prime Minister.

Did the hon. Member's office consult the Prime Minister's office before this reply was given today? Are we to assume from that reply that when the Prime Minister answers the Question he will also give us no information, or is the hon. Gentleman merely leaving it to the Prime Minister to deal with the matter properly?

Say, "I am not the Prime Minister"!

I do not think that the House needs reminding of that. I did not check whether my office had been in communication with No. 10 Downing Street, but the answer I have given seems to be perfectly clear.

In that case, what consultations took place in the hon. Member's private office before this Question was handed to him?

That is another question. The right hon. Gentleman can put it down.

The Under-Secretary of State is sitting next to the Home Secretary who is the best stone-wailer in the business, but stone-walling has its complications. We are now playing with people's lives—[HON. MEMBERS: "Question"]—Are the Government not aware that we are playing with people's lives? Is the Minister really satisfied with giving us a reply that he has not cleared with the Prime Minister and which he has no reason to think is the Prime Minister's view, and which he has not cleared with the Leader of the House and has no reason to think is his view? With whom did he clear this answer, except with the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro).

Is it not obvious that the Under-Secretary is in a position of some difficulty?

No; he is doing very well.

This is a very serious matter. In view of the fact that, in reply to a series of questions yesterday, the Prime Minister clearly indicated that if a Question was put on the Order Paper he would reply to it, may we ask the Minister or the Leader of the House, who is present, whether, if a Question is put on the Order Paper—perhaps a Private Notice Question, in the circumstances—the Prime Minister will reply? Or can the Leader of the House give us an indication of the procedure that will be adopted?

None of these matters is for me to reply to.

On a point of order. I am not quite certain whether it is a regular point of order, Mr. Speaker, but I think it is—

I do not want to hear irregular points of order, even from the right hon. Gentleman.

What I meant was that I awaited your guidance. You will recognise that this is a very serious matter, in which the integrity of the Prime Minister is at stake. Yesterday he clearly indicated that if a Question were put on the Order Paper he would reply to it. The Prime Minister must have been aware that this Question was on the Order Paper today. Can you give hon. Members any guidance as to the way in which they should deal with the matter when the Prime Minister makes a clear statement of that kind?

Did not my right hon. Friend say that if a Question were put to him he would answer it? That is a very different point from the one raised by the right hon. Gentleman.