asked the Minister of Health what steps he is taking to increase the number of consultant plastic surgeons in Wales; and whether he win make a statement.

No present increase in the number of consultant plastic surgeons in Wales is contemplated by the regional hospital board. Facilities for patients in South and West Wales are available at St. Lawrence Hospital, Chepstow, and Llandough Hospital, Penarth. The medical establishment of these units compares favourably with other similar centres. Facilities for patients in North Wales centre mainly on Liverpool.

In view of the fact that, as the Minister herself told me, people have to wait up to two and a half years before being able to receive treatment in these hospitals, will she consult the joint committee set up by the B.M.A. and, I believe, her own Department, and also with the other consultants in St. Lawrence Hospital, and not merely with one man? I think she will find that opinion is in favour of an increase in consultant staff?

As my answer implied, the consultant staff position is not unfavourable. The difficulties, which we discussed in the debate to which the hon. Gentleman has referred, arise for some people out of the geographical situation, but I will certainly look at the point which he has raised.

I am obliged.

asked the Minister of Health to what extent the capital cuts in expenditure will involve delay in the building of a new operating theatre in Dryburn Hospital, Durham.

My right hon. and learned Friend does not expect any delay on this account.

While thanking the hon. Lady for that reply, may I emphasise that the present operating theatre was built as an emergency measure and still remains the main operating theatre for people in Durham? Is the hon. Lady aware that it is unfortunate that this should be so, since ventilation and layout are bad, and anything that she can do to speed the building of a new operating theatre will be appreciated?

I am aware of the situation because the hon. Gentleman and two of his hon. Friends came to see me a few months ago. I am happy to tell him that, as an interim measure, the regional hospital board intends to spend £5,000 on improvements to the existing theatre pending developments.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that there is still a shortage of maternity beds in Swindon; what steps he will take to provide more at the Kingshill Maternity Hospital; and what is the estimated cost of each new bed.

Yes, Sir. The Oxford Regional Hospital Board is about to start detailed planning on an extension to Kingshill Maternity Hospital. The estimated cost is about £2,000 per bed, excluding fees and equipment.

I thank the hon. Lady for that answer, but is she aware that there is growing anxiety about this matter and that, on Friday, for instance, the regional hospital board discussed it and there was a reference to the dangerous situation existing in Swindon? Will she accept that the urgent need is for more beds in Kingshill and also for a decision on what number of beds will be made available in the future for normal cases and what is to happen at the new hospital? Will the hon. Lady agree to allow me and one or two interested and qualified people to come towards the end of the Recess and talk to her about the situation?

I am perfectly happy to see the hon. Gentleman if he can fit it into my already very tight programme before we go into Recess. In the meantime, in reply to his supplementary question, I should tell him that a final estimate of the overall shortage of beds in the Swindon area depends on the county planning authority's estimate of the future population of Swindon. This estimate is at present being reviewed again.

In view of the alarming nature of the Report on maternal mortality between 1955 and 1957, which, I understand, the hon. Lady's Department is to publish at the end of the month—unfortunately, after the House has adjourned—will she agree that every effort should be made to meet my hon. Friend who is anxious to discuss maternity services and, indeed, all those people who put Questions on the Order Paper about these matters?

I have so offered. On tie main point of the right hon. Lady's supplementary question, there is a Question on the Order Paper.

asked the Minister of Health what consideration is being given to the future use of the smaller hospitals in the Welwyn Garden City and Hatfield district on the completion of the new Welwyn Garden City and Hatfield Hospital; and what consultations with local interests are to take place.

I understand that the work of both the small hospitals in Welwyn Garden City will be absorbed in the new hospital and that discussions are to take place in the autumn with the hospital management committee and the local general medical practitioners as to the part the latter can play in staffing the new hospital. The board proposes that one or both of the small hospitals might be used for the treatment of long term geriatric patients.

asked the Minister of Health whether he will consider, in consultation with the trade unions and other interests concerned, the inauguration of a scheme for the sale to the public of items manufactured by mentally defective persons in hospitals, training centres and sheltered workshops.

I am not aware of any serious difficulty in disposing of such articles. I will certainly consider my hon. Friend's useful suggestion should the need arise, but I doubt whether arrangements on a national basis would be justified or practicable.

I am much obliged to my right hon. and learned Friend for that reply. Would not he agree, however, that nearly all these items are disposed of at private sales of work at a cost far below that which could be obtained in the retail market? Would not he also agree that there is a need to consider the possibility of disposing of these items in the same way as the Lord Roberts' Workshops dispose of work done by disabled Service men?

I will certainly consider my hon. Friend's suggestion. The price-fixing by the hospital authorities and local authorities is a longs Landing arrangement and has so far been thought to be suitable in these cases where the prime object of the work is not the price which the finished article attracts but the therapeutic value of actually making or fashioning it.

asked the Minister of Health what are the total numbers of agency nurses employed, and authorised to be employed, in hospitals in each of the Metropolitan regional hospital boards.

The numbers at present authorised are:

Does not my right hon. and learned Friend agree that, however attractive it may be to employ agency nurses where there is an under-establishment, there is the great danger that these nurses come out of the normal pool and, therefore, over-employment of them may be not only expensive but may take away from the number of nurses available for staff posts?

I think that we have those considerations in mind. As long ago as 1949, hospitals were informed that the employment of agency nurses on remuneration higher than that in the Whitley Agreement or recommended by the Rushcliffe Committee should be terminated as soon as possible. Since then these agency arrangements have been entered into only with the approval of the Minister, who takes all these considerations into account.

asked the Minister of Health how many hospitals are either substantially over 50 years old or mainly composed of temporary buildings erected more than 15 years ago.

The information available shows only the dates at which hospitals were originally erected, but not the date or extent of subsequent alterations and improvements over the period in question. Fourteen hundred hospitals now in use were originally erected before 1910, and 90 mainly consisting of temporary buildings have been in use for more than 15 years.

Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman say what proportion of new building that represents in the current year and in the years to come compared with the number of old and derelict buildings?

In the present year, £25½ million has been allocated for hospital building in England and Wales. That is divided between centrally financed major schemes, allocations to hospital boards and lesser amounts for plant replacement and special mental hospital needs, respectively. Of the first two items, which comprise the larger amount, the hospital boards' allocation is slightly bigger than the amount for centrally financed schemes. Not all the centrally financed schemes are for new hospitals. Some of them are for the extension and modernisation of existing hospitals.

asked the Minister of Health what steps he has taken to see that the 110 vacancies for therapeutic dietitians have been filled; and with what results.

Salaries were substantially increased last October and, with the independent professional status which therapeutic dietitians will attain under the Professions Supplementary to Medicine Bill, my right hon. and learned Friend hopes that more people will be encouraged to enter the profession. He is considering what advice might usefully be given to hospital authorities on how to make the best use of the available therapeutic dietitians and reduce wastage.

Is it still the position that about one-half of the dietitians are in the teaching hospitals and that in the provinces two-thirds of the hospital management committees have no advice at all?

I am not able to give the specific figures without notice, but a survey of the work of therapeutic dietitians in the hospital service has been carried out by the Department in conjunction with the King Edward's Hospital Fund for London and its results will shortly be published. My right hon. and learned Friend is considering issuing to hospital authorities, on the basis of the survey, advice about ways of making more effective use of the dietitians now in the service and of future recruits. I believe that the suggestion will also tend to reduce unnecessary wastage.

Would the Parliamentary Secretary not agree that the achievement of independent professional status is no effective substitute for higher salaries as an inducement to recruitment?

I should have thought that both were important. As I said in my answer, salaries were increased last October. They range from £550 for the newly-qualified entrants to £910 for a dietitian in charge of a large department. These increases represented awards ranging from 10 to 20 per cent.

On a point of order. Is it necessary for Ministers, in reply to supplementary questions, to read out the whole of the brief that is given them by their Department?

I should like to think about that later on.

asked the Minister of Health whether final plans have yet been approved for the necessary adaptations at Barncoose Hospital, Redruth, to accommodate the maternity unit on 1st January, 1961.

I understand that the regional hospital board has received tenders for the first stage of the work and has approved plans for the remainder.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary urge the regional board to proceed with the work as quickly as possible, because nobody on the spot believes that the Barncoose Hospital will be ready to accept the maternity unit by the end of the year?

The regional hospital board hopes to have the work completed by the end of the year.

Is the hon. Lady aware, in the light of what has been said about the rather shocking Report that will be produced at the end of the month, that this is the second Question on maternity services which has been raised this afternoon? Both hon. Members have indicated that there has been a long delay in providing adequate accommodation.

This is an entirely different matter. This Question relates to requisitioned property, and as requisitioning comes to an end at the end of the year, it is necessary to provide alternative accommodation.

asked the Minister of Health when final approval of the sketch plans for the proposed new area hospital for West Cornwall was given.

When the regional hospital board was authorised to prepare working drawings in July last year.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary explain why she told me in February this year that the final plans for certain engineering works had not yet been approved? Will she kindly say what progress is being made with both engineering and general plans?

I understand that the preparation of the engineering drawings proceeds concurrently with the preparation of the working drawings, which is the stage which the board has now reached.

asked the Minister of Health the number of whole-time consultants employed in the National Health Service for the years 1954 and 1959, and the number of part-time consultants employed for the same years.

Exact figures are not available, but the following is an approximate estimate: 1954, 1,730 whole-time, 4,780 part-time; 1959, 1,844 whole-time, 5,258 part-time.

Has the Minister any policy on the future planning of the consultant service? Is the S.H.M.O. grade to be absorbed into the grade of consultant or to become a permanent backwater or a career grade? Does the Minister wish to encourage consultants on a part-time basis, or would he not prefer more consultants to be full-time?

Reading a brief.

Concerning the retention of part-time consultants in the Service, the hon. Member may be aware of the provisions of the National Health Service (Amendment) Act, 1949, which was passed when the party opposite was in power, which safeguards their continuance. So far as remuneration is concerned, that should be adjusted in accordance with the recommendations of the Royal Commission. So far as—

On a point of order. Is it not much worse for back-bench Members to read the whole of a brief than for junior Ministers to do so?

I do not know. Whatever hurries them up suits me. Let us, however, get on with the business.

In that case, Mr. Speaker, the least I can do to further your efforts is not to proceed with the answer which I was about to give.

asked the Minister of Health whether he will give an assurance that patients referred by general medical practitioners to hospital outpatients' departments for the purpose of obtaining an opinion of a doctor of consultant status, are not seen only by a junior doctor engaged upon his preregistration training.

It would not be appropriate for an out patient to be seen only by an unsupervised, provisionally registered house officer, and I have no evidence that this occurs. Some part of the investigation may properly be delegated to such junior staff under the consultant's responsibility.

Is the Minister aware that my information is that this sometimes happens in certain hospitals to which my attention has been drawn? If I send to the right hon. and learned Gentleman the details that have been provided to me, will he look into the matter and have it investigated?

Yes, of course, I will look at any case that the hon. Member likes to put to me. The principle is, however, as I have stated it in answer to the Question.

asked the Minister of Health what procedure he is proposing to adopt in investigating the allegations of privilege accorded to private patients attending as National Health Service out-patients in certain Manchester Hospitals, details of which have been sent to him by the hon. Member for Manchester, Exchange.

I assume the hon. Member refers to the enclosures to his letter of 6th July. These deal mainly with delegation of work by consultants to less senior doctors, but my right hon. and learned Friend is arranging for consideration of this and other matters with which he has been concerned, by the hospital boards.

In thanking the hon. Lady for that Answer, may I ask whether she also proposes to forward to the Regional Board for investigation the letters sent to her by, for instance, a Manchester consultant or from any other sources from which they have come to her Ministry, so that the whole of these matters can be investigated by the regional board? When the board's investigation has been completed, will the hon. Lady be prepared to make a statement in the House as to its findings?

My right hon. and learned Friend is seeking the views of the board concerning the letter from the consultant which the hon. Member has mentioned. As to the final position, I would rather not commit my right hon. and learned Friend, but certainly the hon. Member will be made aware of whatever information is available.

On the final point, does the hon. Lady not agree that there is considerable anxiety on this sort of matter? If she investigates allegations, will she ensure that a statement is made to the House in order to allay public anxiety on the matter?

I would not wish to exaggerate the anxiety, which has been raised principally by the hon. Member for Manchester, Exchange (Mr. W. Griffiths). If information about Manchester is forthcoming, I should have thought it proper to acquaint him first.

asked the Minister of Health when he intends to set up a national council for social work training.

I hope soon to make a statement about this and the other recommendations of the Working Party on Social Workers.

Would not the Minister agree that the plans of the local health authorities for community mental health services are severely handicapped by the lack of trained social workers? In view of the fact that several years must necessarily elapse between setting up a body of this kind and the provision of additional social workers, is there not a case for very urgent action on the Minister's part?

I agree that trained social workers are a very useful attribute in local authority schemes connected with their mental health programmes. I am aware of the necessity for urgency in this matter, but, at the same time, I know that the hon. Gentleman will agree that I must give due weight to all the considerations put before me.

asked the Minister of Health whether he will draw the attention of local authorities who are considering a mass radiography campaign in order to detect pulmonary tuberculosis to the need to combine such a campaign with a check-up for diabetes.

I do not think this would be desirable as such a combination would be likely to impede the primary purpose of the campaign.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that for every known diabetic one man or woman has diabetes unknown to himself or herself? Is he aware that, had I not by luck discovered when going to West Africa that I was a diabetic, there would have been a by-election in Liverpool, Wavertree? Is it not better to spend a little money now on early discovery rather than have a very much larger bill later on?

I am very glad that my hon. Friend discovered his own case in time, not because I would in any way shrink from the verdict of the electors of Wavertree or anywhere else, but because, in common with the rest of the House, I so much value his presence among us. We are seeking to do what we can in the investigation of this important matter. In particular, the College of General Practitioners has an investigation in progress now from which we hope to have good results.

asked the Minister of Health if he will take powers to prescribe the medical training required by salesmen of hearing aids manufactured by private firms.

No, Sir. My right hon. and learned Friend does not think there are sufficient grounds to justify such a step.

Is the hon. Lady aware that in my constituency elderly people are being visited in their own home by salesmen and some of them are entering into hire-purchase agreements, which they cannot afford and which they very often do not understand, only to find that the hearing aid supplied is the wrong type, an internal one where an external aid is needed, or vice versa? Can she find some way of protecting these people whose age and deafness make them particularly vulnerable?

If that is correct, I would deprecate it. It is a fact that Medresco hearing a ids can be obtained free under the National Health Service, and my right hon. and learned Friend is advised that there are no medical grounds for seeking to intervene in private transactions involving hearing aids. The purchaser of an unsuitable hearing aid is unlikely to suffer harm from it.

But is not the hon. Lady aware that, while there may be no permanent harm, fitting an internal hearing aid to somebody who needs an external one can cause a great deal of discomfort and pain and some injury, which remains for a little time, although it may not be permanent? Is that not a medical ground?

I am not aware of any medical ground. I hope that these questions and answers may bring home to some of the hon. Lady's constituents the fact that they can obtain adequate aids under the National Health Service.

asked the Minister of Health if he will make arrangements whereby British citizens serving Her Majesty's Government overseas can be supplied with a spare Medresco hearing aid in case of need.

My right hon. and learned Friend's responsibilities are limited to England and Wales, but the Ministry has made arrangements with the Service Departments for the servicing and replacement of Medresco hearing aids used overseas by persons for whom they are responsible. While he could not undertake to supply any person with two aids, my right hon. and learned Friend will consider with his right hon. Friends the possibility of reducing delays by the carrying of limited stocks of spare parts in the main overseas commands of the Services.

This matter concerns not only Service men but civilians who are serving in far-away places overseas. I gave the hon. Lady an example recently. Should not the National Health Service aim to cater for the needs of such persons who may be serving in distant places overseas and who may require from time to time to send their hearing aids to the United Kingdom for repairs, with the result that they are left without a hearing aid for weeks or, perhaps, months? Would it not be possible for the National Health Service to provide at least a spare hearing aid for such people?

The case about which the hon. Member wrote to me is that of a civilian, but a civilian employed by the War Department and, therefore, the responsibility of that Service Department. If he were a private individual there would be no responsibility because, as I have already explained, my right hon. and learned Friend's authority does not extend outside England and Wales. I will add that we have not been asked by the Service Departments to supply spare aids for patients, but we are to discuss with them at a meeting at the end of the month whether they would like to carry limited stocks of spare aids and parts in the main Service centres concerned.

asked the Minister of Health what arrangements he has made for trials in the use of oral live poliovirus vaccine; and how soon he expects to be in a position to decide whether such vaccine can be used in the immunisation programme.

The Medical Re- search Council is carrying out small scale trials of the Sabin oral vaccine. A decision as to the use of oral vaccine in this country's vaccination programme is unlikely to be reached for some time yet, as it will depend on the outcome of these trials and on the experience that is being gathered in other countries, and those who are eligible would be well advised to come forward now for vaccination under the current arrangements, if they have not already done so.

I do not wish to appear in any way critical, because this matter is so technical and there is the extremely important factor of risk, but does not my right hon. and learned Friend feel that we are, perhaps, moving rather slowly inasmuch as over 10 million people have been subjected to trials with this vaccine in the world?

No, Sir, I could not agree with by noble Friend in that. The experience of other countries in the trial and use of oral vaccines is not always necessarily applicable to conditions here. We keep a close watch on what goes on abroad, but that would in no way exempt us from the need to make our own trials here.

asked the Minister of Health, in the light of the disclosure in his Department's Report on Maternal Deaths, 1955–57, that 41 per cent. of the 861 deaths expertly assessed were attributable to neglect and mismanagement and could have been avoided, what new steps he intends to take to protect the lives of women in childbirth.

I do not think that these figures carry quite the implication the hon. Member suggests. The Report covers the second three years of a continuing investigation of the factors contributing to maternal deaths, and by promoting the study of those which are avoidable is itself an important contribution to the measures taken to bring about an improvement. I am glad to say that this second Report contains ample evidence that a considerable improvement has in fact been achieved.

While the right hon. and learned Gentleman can be congratulated on conducting this investigation, is he aware that his Department's Report is extremely disturbing in some respects? Would he not agree that, since the Report also indicates that the risks attendant upon childbirth in the home are about four times as great as those attendant on childbirth in hospital, it provides the most powerful argument for his implementing at an early stage the Cranbrook Committee's recommendations about more carefully and rigidly controlled obstetric lists?

The particular recommendation of the Cranbrook Committee which the hon. Gentleman has singled out is one which, as he may know, is under consideration in consultation with the medical profession. Most of the other recommendations in the Cranbrook Report have already been commended to those providing the maternity services.

The Minister must not treat this so lightly. The Report specifically states that domiciliary midwifery and midwifery in hospital can be severely criticised. On domiciliary midwifery, it states that a number of women who died in childbirth had suffered from heart disease and nobody had examined their heart before the confinement. With regard to hospital midwifery, it is clear that people unfitted to do Caesarian sections in hospital have done them. I think that 140 women have died following a Caesarian section, which today should not be a complicated operation.

In so far as the Report draws attention to avoidable factors, it does a public service, and we shall seek to ensure that those factors are avoided in future. At the same time, while resolute to progress in that way, we should keep the context in view. Over the period of three years covered by the Report, over 2 million women were safely confined and, in this decade, we have succeeded in reducing the figures of maternal mortality from 0·87 per thousand in 1950 to 0·38 per thousand in 1959, a reduction of more than a half. These are figures which, I think, would arouse the envy and excite the emulation of most countries in the world.

asked the Minister of Health how many foreigners belonging to countries with which this country has no reciprocal arrangements have received free treatment under the National Health Service in the last 12 months; and what is his estimate of the saving, including any administrative costs, that would accrue to the Exchequer if they were refused free medical treatment.

I regret that the information asked for in the first part of the Question is not available. With regard to the second part, having regard to the probable cost of any scheme for identifying foreigners, I doubt if any net saving would accrue.

While thanking my right hon. and learned Friend for that answer, may I ask him whether he agrees that it would be of great benefit to British nationals if we could get reciprocal arrangements with as many countries as possible and that one of the best ways of doing that is to stop free medical treatment to nationals of countries which do not have reciprocal arrangements with us?

I agree with the first part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question. It is a good thing to extend the principle of reciprocity as far as we can, and on that we are actively engaged. I cannot, however, agree with the second part of his supplementary question on the best method of obtaining reciprocity. I think that it is better to proceed in the way we are proceeding and to extend our agreements on a basis of good will wherever we can.

Does the Minister recall that in a debate on this subject his hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Sir J. Vaughan-Morgan), who was then Parliamentary Secretary, was good enough to obtain some figures for the London region? He revealed to the House that in the London area, Which attracts most overseas visitors, those from overseas who had used the National Health Service most were Australians, Canadians and members of the Commonwealth. Is not that a very desirable state of affairs?

Yes, but that does not come within the compass of my hon. Friend's Question about aliens. I am satisfied, however, that the cost of supplying these services is relatively small. We take steps to try to check abuse, but I think that generally speaking, in the second half of the twentieth century, it is desirable that we should try not to fall below the standard of those medieval monasteries which asked the sick traveller not whence he came or whither he went but sought to help and to 'heal him.

asked the Minister of Health the number of full-time students entering university institutions for the first time in the faculty of medicine for the years 1954–55 and 1958–59; if he is satisfied that the current supply of newly qualified doctors is sufficient to staff the National Health Service; and if he will make a statement.

According to my information, the number of students entering medical schools in Great Britain was about 2,100 in 1954–55 and about 1,900 in 1958–59. The Willink Committee, reporting in 1957, suggested a reduction in student intake of about 10 per cent. as soon as practicable. The Royal Commission on Doctors' and Dentists' Remuneration, which reported last February, expressed the view that the supply of candidates for training as doctors is reasonably close to requirements.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that Professor Jewkes drew attention to the fact that this slowing down of the intake into the faculty of medicine could increase in momentum? Is he aware that, on the side of the G.P.s, a considerable amount of pressure is put upon their time by large lists and that it is desirable to reduce the large lists to the size of the national average? Will not this require more doctors and not fewer?

The question of the size of lists raises rather larger issues than are involved in this Question. Of course, I have great regard for everything that Professor Jewkes says. The hon. Member will recall that his was a Minority Report and that the Majority Report said that the supply of candidates for training as doctors was reasonably close to requirements.

Whilst the intake may be adequate for the medical service of this country, is it not the case that there is a great need in Commonwealth countries, where, sometimes, there is only one doctor for 40,000 of the population?

Whatever may be the considerations affecting that, it clearly does not arise out of this Question, which is limited to doctors "sufficient to staff the National Health Service".

asked the Minister of Health whether he has received the report and findings of the private inquiry instituted by him to inquire into allegations of irregularity in payments for National Health Service treatment in the Shrewsbury area; whether he is now in a position to disclose the findings of the inquiry; and what action he proposes to take thereon.

I have not yet received the report of this inquiry, which was concluded on the 12th July. The other parts of the Question do not therefore at present arise.

Is there any indication when the report and findings are likely to be received by the Minister?

Submissions by counsel were heard on 12th July, and I know that the Committee is fully seized of the desirability of submitting its report as quickly as possible.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will oppose at the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation the provision of Polaris missiles to West Germany.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will instruct Her Majesty's Government's representative on the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation Council to oppose any proposal which involves the supply of Polaris missiles to Western Germany.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, in view of the fact that the acceptance of the Polaris weapon by the West German Government depends upon the decision of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, if he will instruct the United Kingdom representative on that body to oppose the possession of that weapon by West Germany.

This matter was dealt with fully by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in his answers to Questions last Thursday. I have nothing to add.

First, did not the Prime Minister, in refusing to answer by saying that these missiles might not replace the bombers for some time, dodge the fact that the decision to proceed might be taken immediately? Secondly, what guarantee is there that in an emergency the German commanders could not seize the nuclear warheads?

What my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said was that there was no proposal of this nature before N.A.T.O. at the present time. We have to see what proposal there is. I think it has to be judged both on its military and on its political merits, but I have no intention of saying ahead of that discussion what will be the position of Her Majesty's Government.

Is it not the case that, as the Prime Minister himself admitted in his answer to a Question last week—incidentally, it was almost the only clear statement that he made—in connection with this matter there has already been informal discussion with the N.A.T.O. Council? Is it not also the case that General Norstadt and M. Spaak discussed this with the British Government last week? Is not the Foreign Secretary aware that the evasiveness and refusal to answer clear questions on this matter is resented not only by the Opposition but by the vast majority of the British people?

Oh.

I doubt that very much. There have been neither formal nor informal discussions of this matter in the N.A.T.O. Council.

Is it not clear from what Herr Strauss, the German Minister of Defence, said recently that he expected that this matter would come before N.A.T.O. very shortly? On the assumption that it does come before N.A.T.O. at some time in the near future, say within the next 12 months, what is to be the position of our representative there? Will there be any clear-cut policy, and will that policy represent not merely the views of Her Majesty's Government but the general views of the House of Commons?

What we will certainly do is to wait to see what the proposal is and then form our view on it.

Really, the Foreign Secretary must be a little more direct with the House than he has been. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Is it not the case that the Standing Group of N.A.T.O. and General Norstadt himself have expressed their clear views on this matter? Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman represent to them that in the view of Her Majesty's Government it would advance neither the security nor the solidarity of the Western Alliance to put in Western Germany weapons which can have only an offensive purpose and which will wreck the whole basis of N.A.T.O's present shield strategy?

No, Sir. I think that with regard to this matter we have to see what proposals are actually put forward. I have as yet heard of no proposal to deploy this weapon on German soil.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Foreign Secretary's reply, I should like, in consultation with you, Mr. Speaker, to raise the matter next week on the Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if, through the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, he will ask the West German Government to end the research work into nerve gases now being undertaken by the Bayer Dyestuffs factory.

No, Sir. It is no part of the North Atlantic Treaty Oiganisation's function to serve as a channel for such a request. In any case, I have no evidence of such research work being undertaken.

Then will the Foreign Secretary examine the evidence that I can send him? Is he aware that this work is led by Dr. Schrader, who developed the Bladan nerve poison for the Nazis in 1939 and later the Tabun gas which was used for concentration camp exterminations? Is not this contrary to the 1954 Agreement?

What I will certainly do is to examine any evidence that the work has actually been undertaken. I have no such evidence, and I do not think that what the hon. Gentleman has said constitutes such evidence.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will propose to the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation Council that no West German forces assigned to the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation shall be equipped with weapons which the German Federal Republic is not permitted by the revised Brussels Treaty to manufacture on its own territory.

No, Sir.

Was not the rearmament of Germany sold to the British public on the clear understanding that West Germany would not be allowed to possess nuclear weapons or their means of delivery? Are not the purchase of the Mace missile, the plans for Polaris and the manufacture of the Starfighter long-range fighter bomber all steps in the process of evading the clear spirit and intention of the Brussels Treaty?

The general principle, which I have repeatedly stated to the House, is that in an alliance there should not be discrimination against the troops of one particular country. Manufacture is quite a different matter.

Is it not the case that under the Paris Agreements, which were presented by the right hon. and learned Gentleman and ratified by this House, there is discrimination against the West German Government in relation to both the weapons which they produce and the number of forces which they maintain? Will the Foreign Secretary really drop this totally untenable argument.

I was dealing with the troops. I do not think it is a practical possibility to have in the line troops of one country armed with a different weapon from that of allied troops, which are next door to them. The W.E.U. treaties deal with the number of troops, which is quite a different issue, and also with the manufacture of weapons, which is another different issue.

In view of the series of Questions in relation to Germany which the Foreign Secretary is now being asked to answer, would it be possible to put the House in possession of the facts not only in relation to West Germany but in relation to N.A.T.O. and perhaps the opposing forces against which N.A.T.O. is supposed to be a barrier?

I will certainly consider what the right hon. Gentleman has said.

Do I understand that the right hon. and learned Gentleman is seriously considering abandoning the provisions of the Brussels Treaty? Surely he knows what the provisions of that Treaty are, and if he does not propose to abandon them, surely he can interpret them only in the manner suggested by my hon. Friend?

The Brussels Treaty deals with the manufacture of certain types of weapons, and there is the undertaking of the German Government not to manufacture nuclear weapons in Germany. But that is quite a different issue from the question of the provision of nuclear weapons or of the means of delivery of nuclear weapons with the warheads under the "key of the cupboard" arrangement.