asked the Secretary of State for War whether a court of inquiry was held into the circumstances surrounding the death of Sapper John William Harrold on 26th April, 1960, whilst serving with 12 Field Squadron, Royal Engineers, stationed at Wyke Regis, Dorset; and what was the report of the court of inquiry.

A public inquest was held at which all the military witnesses gave evidence. There was no separate board of inquiry.

In view of the lack of direct evidence as to the cause of the injury which resulted in the death of Sapper Harrold and the uncertainty and anxiety felt by the widow and relatives of the deceased man, does my hon. Friend think that a further investigation by the investigation branch of the Army could elucidate some facts to give some help and assistance to the next of kin?

I have full sympathy with the next of kin, but when there is a sudden death in the Army in this country it is investigated precisely as it is in civil life. The civil police deal with the matter and there is an inquest, as there was in this case. I understand that the whole matter was sifted by the police and the coroner.

Can the hon. Gentleman say what was the verdict of the jury at the inquest?

It returned an open verdict.

asked the Secretary of State for War what has been the cost to his Department of maintaining Army establishments and personnel in Malta during each of the past five years.

The approximate figures of full cost, in millions of £s, were 4·5, 4·5, 5, 5·5 and 5 respectively.

Can my hon. Friend say whether this respectable support for Malta's economy is likely to continue at approximately the same level? Has he any estimate about how much soldiers spend in Malta, which is also a contribution to the Maltese economy?

The actual amount of this money spent in Malta is about £3 million.

asked the Secretary of State for War (1) what instructions he has given to ensure that military transport is used at weekends on British roads only for the most urgent and essential purposes;

Instructions are already in force restricting movement by road by the Regular Army during summer weekends. But units of the Territorial Army have to travel to their annual camps and carry out training, including driver training, at weekends. I am afraid that this cannot be avoided.

Will my hon. Friend give instructions that when such training takes place at weekends on heavily congested coast roads, particularly the roads in Hampshire, drivers will be provided with some kind of escort, perhaps a motor-cycle patrol, and will be instructed to pull to the side of the road when great congestions of traffic occur in order to allow the traffic to pass them; because the continuous traffic blockages which occur are very bad and sometimes it is impossible for other traffic to overtake?

We attempt in every way to help the traffic, and instructions are given to the drivers to be as helpful as possible. But it is necessary for the Territorials to train at weekends because that is the only time when they can train. I think that hon. Members who have experience of the Army, both Regular and Territorial, will know that the Army extends as much courtesy as is possible to the general run of traffic.

asked the Secretary of State for War why, during the daily march to the Bank of England, the picket does not honour the Highway Code.

The picket complies with the Highway Code except where compliance would cause delay to the picket and nuisance to other traffic.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the Highway Code requires marching bodies of troops to have lookouts at suitable distances at front and rear, but that this picket does not have this arrangement and is constantly in the habit of changing direction without giving any indication to oncoming traffic or to traffic overtaking? What is the use of the Minister of Transport spending thousands of £s of State money in inviting people to honour the Highway Code if it is dishonoured by the Secretary of State for War?

On the contrary, experience and expediency show that the best way to get through the rush hour is to move at the greatest possible speed.

May the rest of us obey or disobey the Highway Code when we like in the same way?

This is a question of a reasonable interpretation of instructions to give the minimum trouble to the public.

Would my hon. Friend consider asking my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury (Mr. Langford-Holt) how often the Fleet Air Arm, when he was in it, obeyed the Highway Code?

asked the Secretary of State for War whether it is the intention to replace the 25-pounder gun with the 105 millimetre pack-howitzer; and by what year it is estimated the changeover will he completed.

The pack howitzer will replace the 25-pounder gun in the parachute light regiment next year, and in three other regiments a year later. Beyond that, the replacement programme is under consideration. A self- propelled 105 mm. gun is also being developed to take over some of the rôles of the 25-pounder.

Would my hon. Friend agree that three essential things for a modern Army are mobility, flexibility and fire-power? Would he also agree that the 105 millimetre pack-howitzer has advantages in all these three spheres over the 25-pounder? In these circumstances, does he not think that the adoption of the howitzer in place of the 25-pounder should be expedited?

I could not go all the way with my hon. Friend on that. Of course for airborne and light rôles I agree that there is great advantage in the new air-portable howitzer. We are pleased that we are getting that. Beyond that there are certain rôles for the 105 mm. self-propelled gun, and developments on that are going very well.

Does the hon. Gentleman know of any modern Army using the 25-pounder? Is it not completely obsolete, and does not this demonstrate that our Army, on which we are supposed to depend, is badly equipped?

No, Sir. I think that it is still an extremely effective weapon.

asked the Secretary of State for War what his intentions are regarding the military camp at Sedge-field; and if he will make a statement.

The camp is no longer required and my right hon. Friend is arranging for its disposal.

Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that these camps remain vacant for too long before anything is done? The decision to wind up such a camp should be followed by immediate action. Would he not also agree that in the course of winding up such camps it would be as well to make contact with representatives of Government Departments such as the Board of Trade? Perhaps this camp could be transferred to one of these Departments.

We are in touch with other Government Departments, but at the moment families are still living in this camp. It will not be cleared until the end of this month.

How long has the camp not been in use?

The camp will be empty next month. It was abandoned by troops in March of this year.

asked the Secretary of State for War why British Sunday newspapers, supplied exclusively for members of the Forces in Malta, which arrive regularly in the island at 0420 hours every Sunday morning, are not collected for distribution until the following day.

To distribute the newspapers as soon as they arrive would entail the compulsory use of troops or the payment of overtime to civilians. The overtime would cost about as much as it does to fly the newspapers from England to Malta- This situation may be capable of improvement and I shall look further into it, but the present position is that by holding the papers back for a day we need not charge the troops more than the United Kingdom prices, nor need we increase the cost to public funds.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for agreeing to look into this matter. But is it not ludicrous that when the Newspaper Proprietors' Association makes special arrangements to get Sunday newspapers to the island in the early hours of Sunday, and when the cost of transport is borne by the military authorities, the troops do not actually get the papers until Monday? Could my hon. Friend give an assurance that more cooperation will be shown with the N.P.A. by the War Office on behalf of the troops than has been the case up till now?

As I have said, I will look at this again, but all the newspapers are sold, which shows that the soldiers prefer to pay the home price for a newspaper on Monday rather than 7d. for a 4d. newspaper on Sunday if they got it through an ordinary newsagent.

Could the hon. Gentleman assure the House that none of these Sunday newspapers are in officers' messes on Sundays?

They can be in anyone's mess, or in anyone's hands, if the people concerned are prepared to pay 7d. for a 4d. newspaper.

asked the Secretary of State for War what inquiry has been made into the arrest of three civilians in Lewes during the Big Brother exercise of the Intelligence Corps on 13th July; and what action is being taken to avoid similar errors in future.

A board of inquiry has been held. The mistake occurred because orders given when the exercise was planned were not fully obeyed. Disciplinary action is being taken and the general precautions required in an exercise of this kind are being re-examined.

While thanking the hon. Member for that reply, may I ask him to ask his right hon. Friend to remind those guilty of this unfortunate error of what the Secretary of State himself told the Army League Council on the very day that this blunder was committed—namely, that internal security jobs for which the Army must be prepared demand delicacy of touch and responsibility?

While not wishing to spoil the fun of the hon. Member for Brixton (Mr. Linton), who did not tell me that he was putting down this Question about my constituency, may I ask my hon. Friend whether he is aware that this unfortunate incident—which should not be exaggerated—has caused a great deal of upset? Would it not be easier in cases of this kind to make the real prey carry some simple means of identification?

There would not be much point in the exercise if the prey was obvious. I am sorry that this has happened. We will try to see that there is no recurrence.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether, at any time, he arranged a personal inspection and examination, by one of the honorary consultants in urology to the Army, of a constituent of the hon. Member for Belfast, North, particulars of which have been sent to him, who has been declared medically unfit for entry to Sandhurst.

No, Sir. The candidate was examined by a senior medical specialist. The case notes and X-ray films were then seen by a consultant. I am advised that no symptoms of kidney disease in this candidate were detectable on physical examination and that a decision depended on a study of the X-ray films.

Does my hon. Friend recall that in a letter to me on 29th January he said that investigations had been carried out and

"…included examination by the Honorary Consultant in Urology to the Army."

As it appears that this has not been done and, also, that this was the basis on which my hon. Friend's decision was taken in this extremely difficult case, will he not look at this matter again and invite the Honorary Consultant in Urology to the Army personally to examine this boy, in view of the conflict between senior medical people involved?

I am sorry that my letter was badly worded, and I apologise. It has always been clear to me that the examination by the consultant was confined to a study of the films of the X-rays, which is the only way in which this complaint can be discovered. I have looked at the matter of giving this boy a further examination but there would be no medical purpose in it. There is nothing further that I can do.

Is my hon. Friend aware that I have been advised by medical opinion that this extremely complex disease can best be discovered by personal examination and not only by examination of X-rays? Will he look at this again?

I am advised in a contrary sense, but I will discuss this again with my hon. Friend.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I will seek to raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

asked the Secretary of State for War how many acres in Lincoln he expects will become surplus to his requirements within the next two years; and whether he will undertake That none of this land will be disposed of in conditions which would allow any of the gardens, playing fields and open spaces to be built upon.

So far as can be foreseen, there will be about 75 acres surplus. We shall follow the recognised procedure for the disposal of Government land and we shall consult the Lincoln City Council; but I cannot give an undertaking beyond that.

Why cannot the Under-Secretary give an assurance that playing fields will not be disposed of in conditions which will allow them to be built upon?

Simply because no Government Department can make that condition, which is a question for the planning authorities. The War Office already carries a great deal of authority and for it to become a planning authority as well would be too much. What the hon. Gentleman is asking goes far beyond the recognised conditions for sale of land in those circumstances.

Mr. Mayhew.

I am asking the Under-Secretary to take cognisance of the fact that in many parts of the country the War Office has done this.

I think that the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. de Freitas) did not hear me call the next Question.

asked the Secretary of State for War how far he accepts the recommendations of the Hutchison Committee.

My right hon. Friend accepts the recommendations subject to consultation with other interested parties. I would refer the hon. Member to the last paragraph of the Answer to him on 15th July.

Is it not a little precipitate to accept these recommendations and at the same time to admit that no consultations have taken place with interested parties? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that some of these issues are of great importance to the people of Woolwich? Can he assure me that no action will be taken until he has consulted all those involved?

Everyone will be consulted. During the course of the inquiry, people like the L.C.C., the Woolwich Council, trade unions and others, although they did not wish to give evidence, were consulted. The whole object of the inquiry was to consult local people, as is set out in the Report.

asked the Postmaster-General if he is aware that letters sent by the evening post from Chester and from Manchester frequently do not reach the House of Commons or addresses in London, W.1, by first post the following morning; and what steps he is taking to improve these services.

I very much regret that owing to the late running of trains some letters for London posted in Chester and Manchester have been delayed in delivery. The railways are doing their best to improve the timekeeping of the mail trains, but I understand that, while modernisation work proceeds, some delays are unavoidable. I am having the mail connections from Chester and Manchester examined to see whether any improvements can be effected by re-routing or other changes.

While appreciating the efforts which have been made to improve postal services, may I ask my hon. Friend whether she is aware that it frequently takes a letter from Chester or Manchester longer to reach its destination in London than it used to take a letter to cover a similar distance by pony express in the early days of the United States?

I cannot vouch for the efficiency of the pony express. I am afraid that at present trains carrying the mail from the North-West are running very late and that delays of more than an hour are all too frequent. We are doing everything we can to overcome the difficulty.

asked the Postmaster-General if he will consider giving Brentford, Middlesex, a London postal address.

I have considered this and I am sorry that I cannot do as my hon. Friend wishes.

Is my hon. Friend aware that one half of my constituents, in Brentford, consider that they get a postal service inferior to that for the other half in Chiswick? Will she not agree that it would be far better for the whole of one borough to be in one postal district?

Our difficulty is that we have to draw the line somewhere and in this case it goes through the middle of the borough. If we extended the line, there would be a great deal of extra expense and extra inconvenience for the people doing the job and at present we cannot move the boundary.

asked the Postmaster-General if he will publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT the terms of the bulk purchase agreement for the purchase of telephone equipment from members of the consortium of suppliers of such equipment.

Yes, Sir. I am publishing a memorandum in the OFFICIAL REPORT summarising, the terms of the Post Office bulk purchase agreements.

Is my right hon Friend aware that many people will be very glad about that, because it is thought that there should be more competition in this industry? For instance, is he aware that Pye Radio thinks that it can produce a telephone handset for 30s. cheaper than can be done by the rest of the industry? Is it not time for the winds of change to blow through these bulk purchase agreements?

asked the Postmaster-General whether he will give instructions to the counter staff at the Northfield Post Office, Birmingham 31, to do everything possible to avoid long queues forming at one counter position while other assistants remain idle.

I am having the staffing arrangements at this office reviewed with a view to reducing queues and I will write to my hon. Friend as soon as possible.

I thank my hon. Friend for that Answer. Is she aware that what is annoying people so much is the sort of thing of which there was an example the other day when a constituent of mine went into the Post Office to buy a postal order on which a 3d. stamp had to be placed to bring it up to the correct amount, but that when he asked to buy a stamp for a letter he was told that he had to get into a queue, which was 25 people long, and buy a stamp from the appropriate counter? Is that not ridiculous and will my hon. Friend do something to alter the situation?

I appreciate the exasperation of the person referred to in this instance. My hon. Friend probably knows that we set up a committee to look into services at counters and it recommended that we should try composite working. It is possible that that will be the answer to problems of this kind.

asked the Postmaster-General how many retirement pensions are paid weekly at the sub-post offices in Octavia Street and Pentland Place, Kirkcaldy, respectively.

About 450 and 20.

Is the hon. Lady aware that those figures represent only a small proportion of the pensioners in the areas covered by these offices and that there are other people who are also forced to travel an inconvenient distance to Dunearn Drive and Kirkcaldy General Post Offices to transact business? Will she ask her right hon. Friend to reconsider the decision of his predecessor in June, 1959, and to grant counter facilities at Hendry Road and Valley Gardens Corner?

I have looked into the position very carefully and I find that the district is very well provided with sub-offices. There is the Octavia Street office and the Pentland Place office—it is very confusing because one of them is called Sauchenbush office and there are two other places, Smeaton and Templehall. My information is that none of the people has to walk very far to the sub-office and that the majority of people live near to the Pentland Place office in the older part of the town.

Does not the hon. Lady realise that distances can be confusing and that one has to take account of the terrain? Have not many hon. Members opposite raised similar questions of areas where services should be provided, irrespective of the distance between the various sub-offices? Will the hon. Lady reconsider the decision?

I will keep the position in mind, but I assure the hon. Gentleman that the matter has been thoroughly studied.

asked the Postmaster-General what plans he has for the future of sub-post offices; if he is aware of the difficult period through which sub-post offices are passing owing to the loss of work; and what discussions he has had with the National Federation of Sub-Postmasters concerning the possibility of using sub-post offices for the payment of industrial pensions and hire-purchase remittances.

I expect sub-post offices to continue to play the same useful part in serving the public as they have done in the past. While there have been reductions in some types of work, there have been compensating increases in others. There has been correspondence with the Federation about industrial pensions and hire-purchase payments. It is too early to say what the outcome will be on industrial pensions, but the Federation was told that there is no Post Office objection, subject to certain conditions, to sub-postmasters handling hire-purchase payments.

I thank the hon. Lady for that courteous and partially helpful reply. Is the hon. Lady aware that the efficiency of the Post Office in Britain—and it is one of the most, if not the most efficient, in the world—has undoubtedly been made more efficient by these sub-offices throughout the country? Can the hon. Lady say whether the Committee which her right hon. Friend has appointed will investigate fully the future position of these sub-offices?

I endorse what the hon. Gentleman said about the important part that sub-offices play in the efficient service we give to the public. Most certainly all aspects of their requirements will be looked into when we are investigating this matter.

May I get the position clear from the hon. Lady's reply? Does it mean that this question of hire-purchase remittances will be one of the general facilities offered by sub-offices? If so, will the same apply to Crown offices? As she was referring to sub-postmasters, how will this work out?

No. The difference is that this work is done in their purely private capacity as shopkeepers, and it does not apply to Crown offices.

asked the Postmaster-General what requests he has received from overseas Governments for advice on the subject of telephone-purchasing policy; and what has been the nature of the advice given.

Twenty countries have consulted the Post Office on telephone purchasing policy. They have been informed of the arrangements operating in this country. Seven countries have adopted arrangements on similar lines. Five other countries are also being helped with technical and costing advice.

Does not that reply mean that officers of my right hon. Friend's Department are in fact advising other Governments—Colonial and Commonwealth Governments—to buy their supplies from the existing ring suppliers? Is that a practice which ought to be encouraged? If it is a practice that exists at all, would not my right hon. Friend think it wiser, and more prudent, in view of the present public concern about the matter, not to give such advice in future?

No. The countries which have consulted us have come to us of their own volition for advice. We do not go out of our way to give gratuitous advice to overseas administrations. So far as purchases are concerned, clearly overseas Governments or agencies are completely free to purchase wherever, and from whomever, they like.

asked the Postmaster-General whether he is satisfied with the present arrangements for the exchange of mails between post offices; and if he will make a statement.

I think the time has come to take a general look at these arrangements to see whether, in particular, we can reduce the amount of handling and the number of transfers that some mails now get in transit.

This requires a detailed and practical examination and my right hon. Friend has, therefore, decided to set up a study group to go into these questions. The group will include representatives from outside industry with experience in this kind of problem as well as from the Post Office. We hope that it will be able to report in about six months' time.

I thank my hon. Friend for that most encouraging reply. May I ask whether the Post Office Staff Association will be represented on the group?

I hope that it will be. We intend to invite one of its representatives.

May I ask the hon. Lady whether the question of security is also involved in the study group which the Minister is proposing now? I should like some information about these very important people from outside who are being called into these joint consultations. What qualifications will they have?

On the point of the security angle, this will be taken into consideration—this is a handling exercise as it were. On the second point, the names have not yet been finalised. We are anxious to get people with real experience of this.

Will consideration be given to the advisability of introducing more modern methods, such as electronic conveyors and that kind of thing?

Yes. Our purpose is to try to get the most modern methods available.

asked the Postmaster-General if, in view of the recent large developments in the electronic industry, he will consider revising the arrangements for the supply of Post Office equipment.

I do not accept that the benefits of the electronic development are not available under the present arrangements for the supply of Post Office equipment. I would instance the joint research effort between the Post Office and the telephone equipment manufacturers in the design of an electronic telephone exchange. The Post Office is fully cognizant of the important developments in electronics to which the right hon. Gentleman refers, and particularly their application to the field of telecommunications.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that in this matter he is limited by the agreement with the consortia, and that the consortia have a monopoly in the supply of equipment to the Post Office, especially of this type? Is he not further aware that this is a very juicy business? Is it not time that this agreement was referred to the Public Accounts Committee, for full examination and exposure?

This business—as the right hon. Gentleman describes it—was referred to the Public Accounts Committee in 1947 and 1954. On both occasions the Committee decided to make no report to Parliament. It was again examined in 1950 by the Select Committee on Estimates, which was not critical of the system. Moreover, in 1950 it was further examined by a Government committee, at the time when the right hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Ness Edwards) was a member of the Administration. That committee expressed the view that it was satisfied with the great advantages and economy of the system.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that a new agreement has been made since then, and also that there have been extensive developments in this matter? Materials are also much more readily available than they were in 1950. Surely the time has come for the wind of change to blow through this monopoly, so that we can have the benefits of some competition inside it?

On the general question, I would have said that the more rapid the progress is in electronics the more desirable it is that we should have close co-ordination between the British Post Office and the biggest suppliers of telephonic equipment. I can instance the new electronic telephone exchange which, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, has been produced by the Post Office in conjunction with the manufacturers, and the now 700 type telephone, and also the developments which have been made in subscriber trunk dialling.

asked the Postmaster-General if he will now make a statement on the survey of Post Office sites and buildings; and what plans he has in mind for their future.

I am sorry I cannot yet add to my reply of 29th June to the hon. Member.

How long is this going to take? The survey has now been going on for many months. When can the Minister give us an idea of exactly what he has in mind, and especially how far this will help the Post Office when the survey is complete?

What I have in mind in this connection is to make the Post Office more commercial, and to treat Post Office freeholds as a commercial concern would treat them. The conclusions of the pilot survey, which I started three or four months ago, suggest that there is scope for a greater exploitation of our freeholds, and I am sure that we shall be able to make something of them. I can assure the hon. Member that this is very high on my list of priorities.

asked the Postmaster-General why, since the introduction of the system whereby 100 is dialled in place of TOL and TRU, there has been an increased delay in obtaining an answer from the operator.

The delay in obtaining an answer from the operator is not caused by the introduction of the 100 code, but is due to a shortage of operating staff. I am sorry that the service is not as good as I would wish, but I should like to assure my hon. Friend that every effort is being made to improve it.

asked the Postmaster-General if he will post the names and telephone numbers of local doctors in a conspicuous part of telephone kiosks for the convenience of the general public.

I have recently arranged for lists of National Health Service doctors to be available in telephone exchanges so that inquiries from both kiosks and private telephones can be dealt with. These lists are also held at the larger Post Offices. I believe that these arrangements, and the 999 service, provide the best way of meeting this public need.

Does the right hon. Gentleman mean that these lists will be made available in existing kiosks? If so, they will be welcome in view of the occasional need to make calls in cases of accidents or sudden bouts of illness.

No, Sir. The lists will not be available in telephone kiosks, but most Post Offices and all telephone exchanges will have them, and that should meet the need.

In order to meet the valid point which my hon. Friend has in mind, can the right hon. Gentleman arrange to have a notice in the kiosk to say that the names of doctors in the vicinity can be obtained on application to the telephone exchange?

As the hon. Member knows, there is not much roam in kiosks for this sort of thing, but I will consider his suggestion.

asked the Postmaster-General how many subscribers have taken up the credit card system for calls and what efforts are being made to advertise the service.

So far 6,640 subscribers have taken up this service. About 19,000 cards have been issued for the use of these subscribers and their employees. The service has been advertised in the Press, and by leaflets, but I agree that it requires further publicity and this is under way.

Can my right hon. Friend say what arrangements have been made with other countries to make these cards valid for use abroad?

So far as I know, no arrangements have been made so far, but I will look into the possibility.

asked the Postmaster-General whether, before appointing the members of the Committee to inquire into broadcasting and television, he will satisfy himself that they themselves possess television sets, and ascertain how long, respectively, they have held television licences.

No, Sir.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that people greatly resent superior people coming on television and flaunting their superiority by saying that they have no television set? Will he not agree that such people are not fit either to supervise or even take part in television programmes?

I have much sympathy with what the right hon. Gentleman says. I have been reading the report of a recent debate in another place when a noble Lord used the words:

"I need not say that I do not have a television set of my own and I do not think I shall ever have one."

As the House knows, that gentleman was appointed the chairman of a previous inquiry into broadcasting—by the Administration of which the right hon. Gentleman was a member. I agree that a knowledge of television is very important for the members of this Committee, but, as about three out of four households in the country possess both sets, and, I hope, licences, I do not think that we are in very much danger.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Will it be in order in future to quote from speeches made in another place?

It is not really in order to criticise individuals in another place, but it sounded fairly genial, so I thought that I would not notice it.

This is a serious matter. I remember the Rulings given in the past, and I want to ask whether in future it will be in order to follow the precedent of quoting what is said in another place.

I would rather rule on the particular case, because while large quotations from a debate in this Session in another place would clearly be out of order, I am not sure that one would want to pounce on a single sentence. I would rather rule on the particular case.

So that we may realise how the right hon. Gentleman has exercised his discrimination in this matter, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman when he will be able to tell us the names of the people who have been appointed to this Committee?

I hope to be able to announce the names of the rest of the Committee some time in August.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Do I understand the Postmaster-General to say that he proposes—[Hon. Members: "That is not a point of order."] The Postmaster-General has made a declaration that when the House is up he will announce something which affects the House. I want to know whether it is in accordance with the traditions of the House for appointments of this nature to be made when the House has risen.

I do not think that that would be a point of order for me.

asked the Postmaster-General if he has requested Sir Harry Pilkington to make a report from the Committee of Inquiry into the future of sound and television broadcasting by any particular date.

Sir Harry Pilkington knows that the Government would like the report as quickly as possible and the has told me that he will do his utmost. It would be unreasonable to stipulate a precise date.

Can my right hon. Friend tell me why, in this matter, the Government have not assumed what is properly their own responsibility, and, after debate in this House, laid down the broad lines of policy and then framed the terms of reference of the Committee to provide for its considering how that policy could best be carried out, instead of farming out the whole question to yet another Committee? Is it not likely that, after the experience with the Beveridge Committee and in view of the fact that this Committee is being asked to formulate Government policy, these gentlemen will be wasting a great deal of time, and there will be great delay in letting the industry know what its future is to be?

No. I do not agree with my hon. Friend. This Committee is not being asked to formulate Government policy at all. It is being invited to carry out an objective and impartial survey of the whole field of broadcasting and television, and at the end of the day it will be for Parliament to make the decision.

As the question of lineage, colour, and the allocation of wavelengths are matters of very great importance on which we ought to have much more information, will the right hon. Gentleman advise Sir Harry Pilkington that he ought to take sufficient time to provide the House with a full survey of the whole field?

Can the right hon. Gentleman say who will be the No. 2 to Sir Harry Pilkington to carry out these investigations? In view of the large amount of publicity the right hon. Gentleman gave in the House regarding Sir Harry Pilkington being attached to industry, would it not be as well if the No. 2 came from the other side of industry?

It is not the practice or convention to have what the hon. Gentleman referred to as a No. 2 on a Committee of this kind—

A vice-chairman.

but I assure the hon. Gentleman that organised labour will be effectively represented on the Committee.

Is it not a fact that the Government have already got from the Television Advisory Committee all the technical information which will be available to this new Committee?

The Government are in possession of some very valuable technical information from the Television Advisory Committee, but I would certainly not go so far as to say that all the information of that sort is at present available.

asked the Postmaster-General whether he will amplify the terms of reference of the Committee of Inquiry into the future of sound and television broadcasting so as to include consideration of, and recommendations upon, the proportion of United States or semi-United States programmes shown and the cultural influence of these programmes, particularly on younger viewers.

This is not necessary. The terms of reference are already comprehensive enough to allow for the considerations my hon. Friend has in mind.

asked the Postmaster-General what was the average amount of advertising between the hours of 7.30 p.m. and 10.30 p.m. for the month of June on commercial television.

The Authority tells me that its control statistics are summarised on the basis of the clock hours, but that the average amount of advertising for the period 7.30 p.m. to 10.30 p.m. would be similar to the figure I quoted to the hon. Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew) last week.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that he is being "had" by the I.T.A.? The evening peak hours are from 7.30 to 10.30. It is in that period that there is a higher average of advertising time. By using the period from 7 o'clock to 10 o'clock in the evening the I.T.A. misled the right hon. Gentleman and he, in turn, misled the House.

I am not being "had" by anybody. The position is quite clear. For the month of June, between 7 o'clock and 10 o'clock the average period devoted to advertising was 6·8 minutes. Alternatively, between 8 o'clock and 11 o'clock in the evening in the same month the average was also 6·8 minutes, so the right hon. Gentleman can take his pick.

asked the Postmaster-General what communications he has received recently from the Incorporated Society of British Advertisers relating to the future of television; and what replies he has sent.

The Director of the Society wrote to me in May saying that the Society had set up a committee to examine the future of television and to advise the Society, and that it would wish to put its views to any broadcasting committee that was set up. Its request was noted.

Is the Minister aware that this very powerful committee, including some of the biggest advertisers in the country, has stated that it proposes to lobby him about the future of television from now until 1964? Might it not be better, in their own interests, if advertisers held back a little from these controversial questions and allowed them to be decided on their merits by Parliament and public opinion?

I have looked at the papers, and in fairness to this Society I would point out that the committee which has been set up is to consider the interests of the viewer and consumer as well as of the advertiser. It is a very respectable committee, including the chairman of the Co-operative Society. As for lobbying, I hasten to tell the hon. Member that I am certainly not susceptible to it, from any quarter. I am equally sure that Sir Harry Pilkington is not susceptible to it.

asked the Postmaster-General if he will give an assurance that local broadcasting will not be permitted to develop until the Pilkington Committee has considered its future and made known its recommendations.

I am at present discussing the B.B.C. 's proposals in regard to local broadcasting with the Corporation. No firm decision has yet been reached. But, in the nature of the case, the Government view must be influenced by the setting up of the Committee.

Will not the right hon. Gentleman answer the Question on the Order Paper and give an assurance that no local broadcasting, either commercial or by the B.B.C., will start before the Pilkington Committee has made its review? Secondly, is the right hon. Gentleman quite satisfied that there is sufficient local demand from the people for local broadcasting in cities and towns? What steps is he taking to assess feeling in this matter?

I am in no position to say what the demand for local broadcasting is, but it would be very unfair to give an assurance of the sort asked for by the hon. Gentleman—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"]—because I have received the B.B.C.'s proposals, and I have told its chairman that I am prepared to examine them. In those circumstances it would be quite wrong, at this stage, for me to make any announcement until a decision has been made one way or the other.

Will the Minister also tell the House whether he is considering further proposals made to him, especially from a certain quarter of the House?

I should have thought, in the circumstances of today, that it would be natural and right for the Government to require the advice of the Pilkington Committee on questions concerning major changes before making decisions.

asked the Secretary of State for Air what has been the cost to his Department of maintaining Royal Air Force establishments and personnel in Malta during each of the past five years.

We estimate the direct cost to Air Votes in the last five financial years at £4·4 million, £5 million, £5·1 million, £4·9 million, and £5·2 million.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the figure he has just quoted, together with the figures given by his right hon. Friends in charge of the other Service Departments, show that about £20 million a year is going to Malta from the defence forces? Will he see that this figure is given wide publicity in the island?

Yes, but I should make it clear to my hon. Friend that the figures of cost for which the Question asked, and which I have given, are not quite the same as local expenditure, but we have spent about £18 million in Malta in this period.

asked the Secretary of State for Air what steps he will take to reduce the excessive noise, and nervous strain to the local inhabitants, created by continuous low flying jet aeroplanes from the Strubby, North Lincolnshire, aerodrome; if he will have a special investigation made into these complaints; and if he will make a statement.

I regret that jet flying from Strubby is bound to cause some disturbance; but we shall go on doing our best to keep this to a minimum.

My constituents are aware that jet pilots must get a fair amount of practice. What they hope is that this practice will be divided over the country and not concentrated too much in Lincolnshire.

I appreciate the point of view of my hon. Friend's constituents, and am most grateful to them for their forbearance. I asked one of my staff to go to Strubby last week specially to make an investigation, and in addition to making inquiries at the station, he also talked to the local police and local authority representatives. He found no evidence of a general feeling that the Royal Air Force was causing either unreasonable or avoidable disturbance.

If I send my right hon. Friend the letters that I have received on the subject, will he read them?

indicated assent.

In trying to help the constituents of his hon. Friend, will the right hon. Gentleman be very careful not to divert these aircraft over Lincoln?

asked the Secretary of State for Air whether he will arrange that he shall be informed before any aircraft, whether British or United States, takes off from a Royal Air Force airfield on a flight the plan of which indicates that it will pass near Soviet territory.

As I explained on Monday in reply to the hon. Member for Brixton (Mr. Lipton), the flight plan procedure is concerned with safety and identification. I am not myself dependent on these routine procedures for information about the flying activities of the Royal Air Force. So far as the United States Air Force is concerned, I do not think I should add anything to what the Prime Minister told the House yesterday and on 12th July.

In present circumstances, and particularly in view of General White's fantastic statement yesterday, is the right hon. Gentleman telling us that American aircraft can take off from Royal Air Force bases on flights for destinations which the Secretary of State does not even know about? If so, is not that extraordinary and should not it stop?

I did not say that. All that I have been saying is that I do not think that it would be right for me to comment on existing procedures concerning American aircraft at a time when discussions on this very point are proceeding in Washington.

In these discussions, will not the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that he is responsible to this House for what happens at R.A.F. stations? Surely it is wrong that aircraft should take off from these stations and go to destinations which the right hon. Gentleman does not even know about.

I am sure that these discussions will take into account all relevant considerations.

asked the Minister of Transport what plans he has for improving A.34 between Newbury and Sutton Scotney.

Several short widening schemes have recently been completed and work is now proceeding on another. We are planning to continue this series of improvements, including in the near future a re-alignment at Bullington cross-roads and the construction of a roundabout there.

While thanking my hon. Friend for these improvements which have been made, may I ask him whether he will pay particular attention to the number of narrow railway bridges on this stretch of road which pass over the road and also to the unsatisfactory state of the Tothill railway bridge where the road passes over the railway and where the propping up is said to be unsatisfactory?

I will take note of my hon. Friend's observations.

asked the Minister of Transport what plans he has for improving A.30 between Staines and the junction with A.4 either by making the road dual carriageway or designating it a clearway.

My future plans are that dual carriageways should be provided on this section of A.30, but I cannot yet say when it will be possible to do this work. Meanwhile the possibility of designating the road a clearway has been investigated but it does not appear to be suitable.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for the fact that we shall get a dual carriageway, may I ask him whether he will pay particular attention to the stretch of road which passes along the side of London Airport, where there is room for lay-bys, where buses may stop and where it is very dangerous for traffic at weekends to stop so that motorists may look at the aeroplanes which are passing over? Far too many motorists stop to do this.

I suggest that my hon. Friend writes to me specifying particular parts of the road, and I will look into the matter.

asked the Minister of Transport what steps he proposes to take, regarding the construction of bridges when the development of the London-Yorkshire motorway takes place, to avoid the confusion and danger to motorists caused by the shadows cast by those bridges that have been constructed on the London-Birmingham section of the motorway.

I propose first to await the results of the investigation into this matter which I mentioned in my reply of 6th July to my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, South (Mr. Hocking).

Is the Ministry of Transport making its own private investigation? If so, will it have any bearing on the future construction of the London-Yorkshire motorway?

Investigations are taking place and the police have been asked to report. The Road Research Laboratory is considering the matter and my own Department is considering the evidence which is available. If the hon. Gentleman has any evidence which he would like to submit to these bodies, I should be grateful if he would send it to them.

What is the use of making an investigation if the right hon. Gentleman has no intention of completing the road in the near future? When does he intend to get on with the job?

There is a Question on the Order Paper on that point. The hon. Gentleman, extraordinarily enough, is misinformed.

asked the Minister of Transport if it is proposed to charge tolls on motor vehicles using the second tube to be constructed for the Blackwall Tunnel; and when it is expected to be ready.

The second tunnel is expected to be open for traffic in 1965. Tolls will not be charged.

Will the right hon. Gentleman explain for the benefit of people in Essex and Kent why they will have to pay tolls to go through the Dartford-Purfleet Tunnel, yet they can go free through this one which is to be built a few years later? Why should not the people of Kent and Essex go through the tunnel without having to pay tolls?

There are special reasons. The existing tunnel will be used for one-way traffic and is free of tolls already. The new tunnel will be used for traffic travelling the other way. Therefore, it would be ridiculous to charge tolls on one tunnel and not on the other.

Will the right hon. Gentleman come to Kent and explain that to the people of Kent?

The hon. Gentleman is eloquent enough to explain it himself.

Is the right hon. Gentleman telling the House that tunnels from north to south carry tolls but those from south to north do not, or is it a question of inwards or outwards, or is this his definition of the tidal flow?

What I said was that south-bound traffic will use the new tunnel. North-bound traffic will use the old tunnel which is free of tolls. Either both or neither should carry tolls.

Does my right hon. Friend appreciate that this is a matter of some importance to my constituents in southeast Essex? In view of the Answer he has just given, haw can he justify the imposition of tolls in the Dartford-Purfleet Tunnel? Why have we in south-east Essex been singled out for discrimination?

This is governed by an Act of Parliament that has been passed by this House.

In view of the fact that the Minister is allowing this tunnel to be free of tolls, why should he have insisted that the Tyne Tunnel must have tolls? Is it a question that any traffic leading to the North has to have tolls?

There is a Bill coming before the House on this very issue

asked the Minister of Transport if he has studied the demerit point system, as operated by the Transport Minister in Ontario, particulars of which have been sent to him by the hon. Member for Twickenham, by which the accumulation of twelve points in a two-year period for driving offences brings suspension of the driving licence for three months; and whether, in view of its beneficial effect on driving responsibility, he will consider its adoption here.

I am not at present satisfied that the points system as operated in Ontorio is suitable for adoption in this country.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in Ontario if a motorist commits two or three offences points are given against him and that, if he collects twelve adverse points, his license is temporarily taken away? Is he further aware that the Transport Minister in Ontario has said that this had had a very beneficial effect, particularly on young drivers, and has improved driving habits? We ought not to close our minds to this practice in this country.

I want to make it clear that my mind is not closed or made up. I said that I was not at present satisfied. The reason for that is that it is a very important principle of English law that subjects should not suffer penalties without a hearing. The Ontario scheme seems to me to short-circuit that established legal practice.

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether a section of his Department is studying and assessing the experience of foreign States in this sphere of road safety? If so, will he make available to the House in a suitable form in the Library reports on these foreign experiments so that we may judge whether some of them might be suitable for introduction here?

I should like to consider that. There is a very good film on that subject which we shall be showing shortly.

asked the Minister of Transport what was the reason for his decision to set up a study group of scientists to prepare a survey of the pattern of traffic in and out of London, in view of all the evidence now available; and how long he anticipates it will be before the scientists report.