asked the Secretary of State for Air how many nuclear bomb-proof dug-outs have been provided for the Royal Observer Corps; and what is the total cost to date.

About seven hundred and fifty underground posts and seven protected group headquarters are now complete. The cost to date is about £1¾million.

While these arrangements will no doubt enable a few people to survive a nuclear attack and then observe what damage has been done, would it not be advisable to merge this organisation rather more closely into the civil defence organisation, because the rôle of the R.O.C. is being very considerably changed with the advent of nuclear missiles?

The task of this organisation is to co-ordinate information from its posts and from other groups and pass it through the sector operation centre to the civil defence authorities and also to the Services and other organisations. The kind of co-ordination which the hon. Gentleman envisages and recommends is indeed provided for in the present organisation.

Could the hon. Gentleman inform the House what provision is made for the personnel engaged in civil defence?

The posts are designed to give the maximum protection to the personnel of this organisation who will be working there, but no shelter can be claimed to be nuclear bomb-proof. These shelters are designed to give a reasonable degree of protection.

asked the Secretary of State for Air why it has been decided to cancel the order for some Victor Mark 2 aircraft.

We decided that we could maintain the effectiveness of the deterrent with rather fewer aircraft.

How many Victor Mark 2 aircraft have been cancelled? Is it not a fact that the order has been cancelled largely because the plane cannot carry Skybolt?

I cannot disclose the exact number of aircraft cancelled, but I can say that there is still a substantial number on order. Several factors affected the decision. I cannot disclose them all here, but I can say that the decision was not taken on the basis that the Victor could not carry Skybolt.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will increase the amount of major road building which he has permitted to Hampshire County Council in the current programme.

The current programme of major improvement schemes for classified roads in Hampshire has been recently increased from £163,000 to £280,000. Grants amounting to £189,000 have been or will shortly he issued to the county council.

Is the Minister aware that Hampshire County Council, which has the plans, the men and the machines to get on with the job of dealing with the most urgent parts of Hampshire's road programme, is deeply disappointed at the inadequacy of the present programme, in spite of the increase, and has asked Hampshire Members of Parliament to make representations to him? Will he consent to meeting Hampshire Members of Parliament to discuss this urgent problem?

I will certainly meet a deputation of Members of Parliament from Hampshire, but since the hon. Gentleman tabled his Question we have increased the programme by £120,000, which, based on an original programme of £163,000, is an increase of 73 per cent. I had hoped that the hon. Gentleman would be most grateful for that.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he has now come to a decision on the objections which were put forward in respect of his draft scheme for the Leicestershire portion of the London to Yorkshire motorway; when he expects construction to be commenced; and what funds are available for the purpose.

asked the Minister of Transport (1) when the draft schemes will be published for the proposed motorway extending from the London-Yorkshire motorway through the West Riding of Yorkshire to Sheffield and Leeds; and

(2) When work will commence on the extension of the M.1 from Crick to the West Riding of Yorkshire; and when this is likely to be completed.

The scheme fixing the line of route of the section extending from Crick to Doncaster has now been made. The draft side road Orders will be published shortly. Land acquisition is being put in hand. As I indicated to the House on 28th July, the funds available for long-distance routes in the next five or six years must primarily be devoted to completing the Government's five major projects. I hope nevertheless that a start can be made on the Crick-Doncaster section during this period. I also hope to publish early in 1961 the draft scheme for the remaining section extending the motorway to Sheffield and Leeds.

Does that mean that the Minister seriously thinks people will wait five or six years for this road to be constructed? He has had this matter before him for many years now, and the actual scheme which he has now adopted is the scheme which was put to him three or four years ago. Is he not prepared to see that the finances are available to carry on with this work, which has been so necessary for about seven or eight years?

The scheme has not been before me that long, and the five major projects come first.

With regard to the extension through the West Riding, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is serious traffic congestion and serious concern over the delay? Will he give an assurance that the completion of the extension through the West Riding will coincide with the completion of the M.1 to Doncaster? If not, What delay will there be between the extension through the West Riding and the motorway up to Yorkshire?

I should like to look at that question tomorrow in the OFFICIAL REPORT and write to the hon. Gentleman.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he has now been in office twelve months and the road situation is worse than when he took over? [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Of course it is. Congestion is much more serious than it was last year. People demand yet another increase in the road programme.

I do not think that I had better answer in an aggressive manner. I thought that the hon. Gentleman agreed with me more than he did with most people.

asked the Minister of Transport whether, in view of strong local feeling, he will reconsider his decision not to hold a public inquiry concerning the line of route for the London-Yorkshire motorway through Markfield.

No, Sir.

As the Minister has just said that it will be six years before he starts building this road or before it will be ready, how can his Department now be so inflexible in its administration that it cannot consider the very reasonable claim of many people living locally for a public inquiry as to the exact line of the route through their farms?

This has been going on for a long time, and we have had bitter opposition to other routes. I have supported the compromise line of Leicester County Council, which, although from an engineering point of view is not ideal, is, I am quite satisfied, the line which causes the least disturbance to the smallest number of people.

asked the Minister of Transport, in view of the passing into law of the Tyne Tunnel Act, when the work on the tunnel will commence and when it is likely to be completed.

The Tyne Tunnel Joint Committee proposes to invite tenders for the boring of the tunnel soon, and it expects work to start early next year. The tunnel and its approach roads should be completed within six years.

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that Answer, but may I ask him to do all.he can to speed up this job, which will provide work for men in that area who badly want it? Furthermore, can he at this stage say what will be the toll charged on those using the tunnel on its completion?

The tolls have not yet been finally decided, but we are certainly most anxious to get the scheme going as quickly as possible. I am afraid that there has been a little delay in the contract in the last few months owing to difficulties in the boring, but we certainly want to get busy as soon as we can.

asked the Minister of Transport what plans he has for widening the Basingstoke by-pass and, in particular, the bridge over the former Basingstoke-Alton light railway.

We hope shortly to invite the agent authority to prepare a scheme for improving the by-pass where it passes over the Basingstoke to Alton light railway so that the scheme may be fitted into the programme as soon as the necessary funds can be made available.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply, but, in dealing with this very dangerous road bridge on a curve—which was, I think, opened a few weeks after the railway itself shut—could he define further what he means by the word "shortly"?

As soon as possible.

Is not the answer not to widen but to duplicate with another carriageway?

We have, of course, long-term plans for the construction of the Basingstoke motorway, Which will be roughly parallel to the A.30 for quite a length of the total distance. I cannot say when we shall be able to fit that into the programme, but I think that that will be the answer to this problem.

asked the Minister of Transport what are his plans for improving road communications between the Midlands and South Wales; and what progress has been made so far.

Construction of the Birmingham to Bristol motorway as far south as its junction with the Ross Spur began this spring and is due to be completed in the autumn of next year. This section, together with the Ross Spur itself, which will be opened shortly, will provide a new motorway route 48 miles long.

A new trunk road by-pass of Ross-on-Wye has recently been completed, and beyond this there will be further improvements of the existing trunk roads. Dual carriageways will be provided throughout from Ross to Newport, with major by-passes at Usk and Caerleon. I hope to authorise work on the first schemes in this comprehensive improvement during the present financial year. Further westward, the Heads of the Valley Road is being reconstructed to modern standards; work started last March on the first stage between Abergavenny and Brynmawr.

In view of the vital importance of these road communications—particularly between Ross and Cardiff—in the battle for the survival of the South Wales ports, will my right hon. Friend consider seeking further statutory powers from Parliament to speed up construction still more?

Quite frankly, I think that in this area we are going as fast as possible and I do not think that any further statutory powers are needed. However, I can assure my hon. Friend that we really are aware of the fact that South Wales depends on these roads for its communications.

asked the Minister of Transport when work is to start on the construction of the Severn Bridge; and what are his plans for ensuring that all traffic will get the maximum benefit from it.

I hope that work will start early next year and be completed in five to six years. Tenders have been invited for construction of the foundations and substructure of the bridge and of access roads to the site. The bridge will form part of the London-South Wales motorway. There will be special tracks for pedestrians and for cyclists.

To increase benefit to long-distance traffic, I hope the section of the motorway between Chippenham and the Severn Bridge will be completed by the time the bridge is ready. This will provide good connections with the existing road network on the eastern side. To the west, extensive improvements have already been made to trunk road A.48.

Though the news of the starting of the construction of the Severn Bridge has been welcomed on both sides of the Bristol Channel, is my right hon. Friend aware that considerable concern exists throughout the whole of South Wales at the chaos in traffic conditions which persist particularly in Newport? Will he tell us when he expects to be able to announce the dates of starting work on the by-passes at Newport and Cardiff?

That really is another question, but I think that the Newport authorities are seeking statutory powers in order to expedite the project my hon. Friend has in mind.

asked the Minister of Transport when measures will be taken to relieve the congestion at peak hours at the northern end of Blackfriars Bridge.

I have invited the Corporation of London to submit for my approval in the next financial year a scheme which will include an east-west underpass beneath the road and railway bridges. The cost is at present estimated at £2,900,000, on which a grant of nearly £2,200,000 would be payable. Meanwhile, experimental restrictions on waiting near this bridge-head have been introduced.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that his statement will be received with great satisfaction in the hope that what is proposed will relieve congestion here? Has my right hon. Friend read the pamphlet, issued by the British Road Federation, called "Five Missing Links", which gives five places where congestion is quite frightful, and could he take an early opportunity of stating to the House what action he is proposing in connection with those five missing links?

I never forget to read all the publications of that particular Council, and I have in mind a sixth missing link which I shall not mention here.

To what extent is this congestion at Blackfriars Bridge due to the excessive number of private cars? Is it the policy of the right hon. Gentleman to continue to discourage or to seek to diminish the use of private cars in Central London, particularly during peak hours?

The great thing with these roads is to make them so that all cars, commercial and private, can use them.

asked the Minister of Transport if he is aware of the dangerous conditions in the High Street, Gosforth, for pedestrians and general traffic; and what discussions he has had with Gosforth District Council or the Northumberland County Council on the question of additional road signs to effect a greater slowing down of traffic approaching Gosforth High Street.

Traffic approaching the High Street, Gosforth, could best be slowed down by erecting a 30 m.p.h. sign at its entry. This cannot legally be done because the High Street is part of a longer stretch of road which is at present all subject to the 30 m.p.h. limit. We are in touch with the Newcastle City Council to see whether a length of road immediately to the south of Gosforth should be subject to a 40 m.p.h. limit. If this were done a 30 m.p.h. sign could be placed at the entry to the High Street.

asked the Minister of Transport what future development plan is under consideration by the local and district authorities and his Department for overcoming the Gosforth High Street problem, as part of the Great North Road; and if he will make a statement.

There are no immediate plans for a local alternative route to the Gosforth High Street, but some traffic should eventually be drawn off from it by the proposed northern approach to the Tyne tunnel and also, in the very long-term, by the proposed Gateshead-Newcastle western by-pass.

Is it a fact that there is a development plan for that part of Gosforth? Has the Minister been in close touch with the authorities and is there any likelihood of speeding up the job? When is it likely to be completed?

We are certainly in the closest touch with the local authorities in the whole of this area. I am advised that the county development plan does not provide for any local by-pass at Gosforth. As far as the long-term situation is concerned, as I said in my answer we think this will be largely helped when the Gateshead-Newcastle western by-pass is built.

In view of the fact that I live in Gosforth and have several times been nearly killed in the Gosforth High Street, may I ask my hon. Friend if he will kindly point out to everybody concerned that we have been arguing about this for many months, almost years, and that it is about time something happened?

I think we all feel that Gosforth is extremely lucky to have my hon. Friend living in that part of the country. As to consultation, as I said answer to the hon. Member for Wall-send (Mr. McKay), we are in the closest touch with the local authorities concerned, and I hope that we can get something done about Gosforth High Street by this proposal for a 40 m.p.h. limit.

Will the Joint Parliamentary Secretary say when he hopes to give some indication of the commencement of the western by-pass? As a temporary measure, could he indicate when he hopes to be able to give a date for the completion of the new Scotswood bridge, which will have a bearing on this trafflc problem?

I am afraid I could not give answers to either of those points without notice.

asked the Minister of Transport how many official road signs now exist in this country bearing the words, "Going slow?", "Let others pass", and "Use the lay-byes".

None, Sir.

Will my hon. Friend say why not? Would it not be a good idea to have such signs, and are there not often very long queues held up by slow-moving vehicles ahead, such queues running sometimes into scores or even a hundred vehicles? Is my hon. Friend aware that such signs are used in Switzerland, where they work very well, and will he consider the matter again?

Yes, we will consider it. I had not heard about this idea until my hon. and gallant Friend put down his Question. We will certainly consider whether there is any advantage in having signs of this kind on certain roads in this country.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he has studied the W. J. Scott plan for greater traffic mobility as set out in the Motor of 20th July, 1960, a copy of which has been sent to him by the hon. and gallant Member for Poole, and what plans he has for assisting the flow of traffic in large cities.

Yes, Sir. My traffic engineers had already discussed an earlier version of the plan with Mr. Scott and their conclusion was that the very long detours involved outweighed any advantages the plan might produce in increased speeds. As to the second part of the Question, the battle against urban traffic congestion is being waged on many fronts. There will be increased grants for road improvements for this purpose, and many measures of traffic management are being introduced in London, where I have a responsibility, and in the provinces, where the responsibility rests on the local authorities.

asked the Minister of Transport when it is proposed to carry out the improvements at Leylands Corner, Hatfield, on the Sheffield-Grimsby trunk road.

The land required for this improvement is the subject of a draft compulsory purchase order to which the owner objected. A local inquiry has been held and my right hon. Friend is at present considering the Inspector's report.

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that the compulsory purchase order was issued last year and that the inquiry to which he refers was held in February of this year? Is not a rather long time being taken, in view of the fact that the whole argument has been going on now for well over three years?

I agree with the hon. Gentleman that, on the face of it, it looks as though this has been going on for rather a long time. I promise him that I will look into it to see if a decision can be expedited.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he has now reached a decision on the improvement of the access to Scarborough by either the construction of the eastern arm of the proposed Malton by-pass or the improvement of possible alternative routes.

It remains my intention to construct the eastern arms of the proposed by-pass when the necessary funds can be made available. Preparatory work is proceeding.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a general feeling in the North Riding that the traffic problems of this particular area are understood neither by himself nor by his Department, and will he take an opportunity to meet the highway authority, if necessary on the spot, in order to resolve that misunderstanding?

It becomes difficult to go to every spot in the United Kingdom myself, but I shall arrange for meetings if my right hon. Friend desires it.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there are many people in the House who wish they had never gone to Scarborough this year?

asked the Minister of Transport on what day he proposes to accompany the hon. Member for Tynemouth to view the congestion on the A.1 road between Darlington and Leeming Bar.

I regret that I must decline this very kind invitation. No doubt my hon. Friend will be aware of the schemes for the improvement of A.1 in this area. A by-pass of Leeming Bar is under construction; there are now 11 miles of dual carriageway extending northwards on A.1 from Leeming Bar to south of Barton, and it is proposed to build a by-pass of Darlington from this point to link up with the Durham motorway.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that this is really not included in any stable programme at the moment? Does he appreciate that I thought it would be most delightful if, before either of us died, he took this trip to see the difference in the part which runs through Leeming Bar and north of that to Barton, and will he consider what a wonderful thing it would be if he and I could coast down this road and see the difference between the congestion there and the dual carriageways so that, out of that, we might have a decision as to when that very satisfactory new arrangement would be put into operation and the money be forthcoming?

Nothing could be more agreeable than to coast with my hon. Friend. Although I declined her invitation to go to this particular spot, I invite her to come to see me in my room when we can discuss the matter in greater detail.

asked the Minister of Transport what additions have been made recently to the major roads programme of the Cornwall highways authority for the current financial year.

My right hon. Friend has recently added 34 schemes costing £164,000 to the Cornwall County Council's major road programme for the current year. This will bring the total programme to about £700,000.

I thank the Minister for that reply, but will he look at the Written Reply which he gave me on 27th July last in which, I suggest, the figures were misleading in that the requests from the county highway authority for schemes had already been scaled down towards what the Minister would be likely to sanction? Further, will he see that immediate provision is made for traffic lights in the centre of Redruth and in the centre of Pool on one of the busiest roads in the country?

I will consider the request which the hon. Gentleman makes in the last part of his supplementary. As regards the first part of his supplementary, I do not think that the Answer I gave on 27th July is altogether misleading. As it made clear, the county council had asked us for 68 schemes totalling £780,000 in the current year. We are now giving the council 61 schemes out of the 68 and are spending £700,000 out of the £780,000, so it is not doing too badly.

asked the Minister of Transport what stage has been reached in the construction of the M.6 between Birmingham and Preston, and between Preston and Lancaster; and when these lengths will be finished.

Work started on three major viaducts of the Birmingham-Preston motorway in 1959, and on four rail bridges earlier this year. A contract was let in June for the Stafford by-pass and contracts for a further nineteen miles in north Staffordshire are about to be let. Tenders have been invited for the 26-mile section between Preston and Warrington, and I hope that construction will start early next year. The Cheshire section will follow shortly afterwards. I hope that the whole motorway from Dunston, south of Stafford, to Preston will be completed in time for the main summer traffic in 1963. The line between Preston and Lancaster has been fixed, bur further statutory processes and land acquisition have to be completed before construction can start.

asked the Minister of Transport if he is aware that traffic congestion in High Wycombe is becoming serious; and if the draft proposals for the line of the A.40 High Wycombe by-pass can now be published.

I am aware from personal experience of the traffic congestion in High Wycombe, and we are endeavouring to publish our draft proposals as quickly as we can.

I do not regard that reply as highly satisfactory. Is my hon. Friend aware that the delays have been so marked as to lay his Department open to the charge of gross inefficiency? Therefore, in order to be able to dispel such an impression, may I also come to see my right hon. Friend in his room?

So long as my hon. Friend does not come at the same time as my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward) comes to see my right hon. Friend, I shall be only too pleased to discuss this with him. I really do think that he has slightly exaggerated in what he said about my right hon. Friend's Department.

asked the Minister of Transport what progress has been made in the study of the means by which the noise of motor vehicles can be reduced; and what method is being used by his Department to measure the sound of motor vehicles.

The motor manufacturers are continually studying ways of reducing vehicle noise and have had considerable success. My Department, with the full co-operation of the Motor Industry Research Association, the manufacturers and the National Physical Laboratory have been engaged on tests on the lines of the draft International Standards Organisation proposals for methods of measuring vehicle noise, using a meter showing the sound level in decibels. Further tests have been arranged for motor vehicles in November, and it is hoped to arrange for similar tests for motor cycles early in December.

What progress has been made? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I asked a similar Question a couple of years ago? What I am interested in is the progress which has been made, especially the progress in distinguishing between two different types of noise, such as the roar of a bus and the sound of a motor-cycle.

This is primarily a technical problem, and it is not an easy technical problem. Until the British Standards Institution has produced a specification for the measurement of vehicle noise, it will be very difficult administratively to follow it up, but we are trying to establish maximum sound levels and standard methods of measurement.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will inquire into the practicability of taxing motor vehicles in such a way as to take account of the noise they cause.

I am afraid that this is not a practicable proposition.

Why not? Is the Minister aware that he has had several years' notice of the interest of hon. Members and myself in this point? It is desirable that there should be some method by which financial advantage can be given to those who spend a great deal of money and exercise much ingenuity in making their vehicles more silent than others.

It is not possible, because technically it is not possible to measure noise in this way.

asked the Minister of Transport if he is aware of the continuing nuisance caused by unsilenced motorcycles passing through residential districts in Leicester and other towns in the early morning; and if, following the noise tests on such vehicles, he will now introduce regulations similar to those now in force on the Continent defining a standard of silence with which motorcycles must comply.

It is already illegal to use a motor-cycle without an efficient silencer, but the present law is not easy to enforce. A standard method of measuring noise is being worked out; adequate noise meters are being developed; and we hope, when this work is completed, to be able to lay down maximum noise levels for all motor vehicles.

Has the Joint Parliamentary Secretary studied the regulations at present prevailing on the Continent? Apparently they have methods of measuring standards of noise. Will he inquire into how they proceed in these matters and whether their regulations are efficient, as I believe they are?

Yes, I will certainly study these regulations, if they are available. At the moment, the International Standards Organisation is trying to draw up a uniform test method, to which we would try to adhere. Therefore, I hope that we shall be able to make some progress.

Will my hon. Friend at the same time introduce a method of curtailing the reckless speed of these dangerous machines?

That is another question.

In view of the unsatisfactory answers to these Questions, I beg to give notice that I shall try to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Transport if he is aware of the large number of accidents caused by the overloading of lorries; and if he wild make regulations requiring the painting in a prominent place on all commercial vehicles of the maximum load tonnage above which it will be an offence to load such vehicles.

In 1958, 353 accidents were reported by the police as attributable to overloading, or to shifted or defective load; we expect shortly to discuss with the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders a scheme under which the maximum permitted weight would be displayed on an embossed plate on every goods vehicle.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that lorry drivers are often held responsible for the overloading of their vehicles and that there is nothing on these vehicles to indicate how much the load should be? Since railway wagons carry notices indicating both the tare and the maximum load, could the same be done on road vehicles?

As I said in my original answer, we expect shortly to discuss with the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders a scheme whereby this can be done.

I am obliged.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will now introduce legislation to repeal the West Hartlepool Extension and Improvement Act, 1870, in view of the existence of Section 49 of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947.

We have no reason to think that the operation of the present law is causing any substantial injustice. We will, however, consider when opportunity offers the desirability of legislating for the repeal of any provisions in local Acts which are inconsistent with those of Section 49 of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947.

While thanking my hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask him whether he will not agree that the Act of 1870 is very arbitrary by modern standards, that it is an Act which gives the citizen no right of appeal and is contrary to democratic Government of the present day?

I know that some of my hon. and gallant Friend's constituents feel strongly about this local Act. All I can say is that this is the first case which has been brought to our notice and, as I said in my answer, as and when opportunity offers for legislation we will consider it.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will make a statement about the implementation of the proposals in the Chandos Report.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will make a statement on the arrangements made with the Cunard Company for Government assistance in building a transatlantic passenger ship.

As announced on 10th October, the Government have decided to assist the Cunard Company in the construction of a replacement for the "Queen Mary". I hope to inform the House in more detail very shortly.

Can my right hon. Friend assure us that not only will he inform the House of these extremely important details but also that there will be an occasion for a debate, more particularly as there is some hesitation about the principle not only of giving a subsidy to private industry but to a particular firm? Will he in particular note the statement in the summary of the Chandos Report:

"… Cunard have available only £12 million from their own resources …"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st June, 1960; Vol. 624, c. 1441.]

This situation has arisen largely because of over-taxation on the shipping industry for a very long period. Anything my right hon. Friend can do to alleviate the position will be well worth while.

My answer to the first part of the question is that full details will be given to the House very shortly. My answer to the second part is that, if my hon. Friend wants a debate, that question should be addressed to the Leader of the House and not to me.

Will the Minister reconsider this very grave mistake, which only arises out of an election pledge given by the Prime Minister in the heat of the moment before the last General Election? As I am sure he knows, every person in the ship-owning business knows that this ship will be out of date before its keel is laid. Does he not agree that it is a highly uneconomic proposition which no other shipowner supports, except the inefficient Cunard Company? To waste £18 million of the taxpayers' money when there are so many other things needed is a very serious matter indeed, even for an election pledge.

I do not think that the majority of the country, especially Clydeside and other places, will agree with the hon. Gentleman's remark that this is a waste of money.

Will the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that, when this tender is put out by the Cunard Company, it will be open to free competition from all the yards capable of building the ship? Will he deny the rumour so widely circulated, and almost to be inferred from his reply, that it will necessarily go to John Brown's on the Clyde? Will he confirm that Tyneside and other shipbuilding centres will have the opportunity of tendering?

I understand that the Cunard Company is hard at work on the invitations to tender and hopes to issue them during the next few months.

Does the right hon. Gentleman really think that the placing of an order for one obsolescent ship in one yard is the best way to deal with the very serious problems of technical backwardness in the British shipbuilding industry at present, when there is so much money to give away?

This was not so much on the grounds of helping shipbuilding; it was to help our prestige across the Atlantic and earn valuable dollars for this country.

Will the Minister give an assurance that the House will be given time for a debate, particularly in view of his use of the word "prestige", which in our view entirely explains the Government's approach?

As I said in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. P. Williams), any request for a debate is, as the hon. Member knows, not for me but for the Leader of the House.

asked the Minister of Transport what steps he is taking to assist the shipbuilding industry to cope with the serious difficulties it is going to face during the next few years.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will make a statement on the investigation being undertaken by the special Sub-Committee of the Shipbuilding Advisory Committee.

The Sub-Committee of the Shipbuilding Advisory Committee, which is considering the future of the shipbuilding industry, is working as rapidly as possible, but I am not yet in a position to say when it will report. Meanwhile, my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade has announced that the Export Credits Guarantee Department will give better terms for guaranteeing export credits for shipbuilders. I am also considering representations the Shipbuilding Conference have made to me about other aspects of the problem of credits.

Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the Report by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research which has not so far been published but which is, I believe—according to reports in the Press—extremely critical of the technical ability of the industry, and particularly of its employment of scientific staff on research? Will he ensure, if he is to go on with the monstrous folly of building the Cunarder, that at any rate tenders are put out to the maximum technical as well as economic competition?

In regard to the second part of the hon. Gentleman's Question, I do not think that he need worry about the technical aspect. We shall certainly look at that, through the Government's agencies. As to the first part of the supplementary question, the Report is made not to me but to the Minister of Science; but it is being discussed between the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, the industry and my own Department, and when it reaches a suitable stage the Advisory Committee will look at it.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the shipbuilding industry is still suffering from the embargo placed by the Government on trade with certain countries? If so, could not that embargo be removed?

; I should like notice of that question, but I certainly have not heard of that from the shipbuilding industry itself.

asked the Minister of Transport if he is aware of the necessity for bringing the Merchant Shipping Acts up to modern standards; and if he will introduce legislation to repeal or revise the old Acts dealing with merchant shipping and seamen to take account of present-day requirements.

The Merchant Shipping Acts regulate all aspects of merchant shipping and, since the principal Act of 1894, some 40 Acts have been passed changing requirements. As regards the disciplinary provisions of these Acts which have been the subject of recent comment, I am awaiting the recommendations of the National Maritime Board on which both sides of the industry are represented.

Is the Minister aware of the trouble that arose among our seafaring fraternity recently over the operation of the 1896 Act? That Act is 64 years old. Will he take steps to revise that Act and to bring it up to date?

I should prefer to wait for the views of the industry before undertaking to do anything.

Will the Minister be a little more positive about this? Rather than simply waiting for the agreed views of the industry, will he give some positive indication that he wants to amend this Act, which is now nearly 70 years old, which affects the lives of seamen in many ways and is out of date in other respects, quite apart from the penal provisions?

In a country such as ours it is necessary to take both sides of industry with one if one wants to modify an Act of Parliament. I want to hear what the employers and employees have to say before I give an undertaking to the House. Although the Act is old, it is not necessarily a bad one because of its age. Merchant seamen who enter into engagements to serve on ships can withdraw their labour at the end of their engagement or by giving notice where the articles provide for that. In the recent strike a large number of seamen did that. The only difficulty which arose was where people broke their agreement without giving prior notice.

asked the Minister of Transport what action is contemplated by his Department to ensure that British shipping is accorded the measure of protection required against the methods of discrimination practised by the United States of America and other countries.

The Government will continue to oppose flag discrimination by whatever means are considered most effective in each case, but there is no general or easy solution. I hope shortly to receive recommendations from the General Council of British Shipping on the difficulties at present facing their industry. I will give the most careful consideration to any suggestions they may make on this aspect of the matter.

Is the Minister not adopting a rather sluggish attitude to this matter? Does he not appreciate the injury which is inflicted on British ships by American practices? Does he not think that the time has arrived when representations should be made at the highest possible level, and does he not think he might consult the Prime Minister, who perhaps might have a word in the ear of President Eisenhower in order to persuade the Americans to play fair?

I will certainly consider that suggestion, but I am bound to say that the United States Government are under no illusion about the strength of our feelings about flag discrimination. Make no mistake about that. The point is that it is only a comparatively small number of United States ships which do this, but it is the principle to which other countries refer; they say, "If the United States does it, we can do it." I think that here again it would be as well to see what action the industry itself suggests the Government should take.

While accepting that we should hear what the industry has to say about this, would not my right hon. Friend agree that a number of years ago there was a European view of this matter which was in complete contradiction to that of the Americans'? Since that time the Americans undertook to reconsider their view, and they have been considering and considering. It is no longer good enough for allies of America to be treated in this way. Really much more forceful representations must be made to the United States on behalf of European maritime nations on this point.

My hon. Friend is a little out of date. A meeting took place between the European and United States officials on 22nd September, and another is likely to be held next month. These representations have been made, but the point is, have we any effective sanction to back up the protests which we make? If my hon. Friend has any suggestions, I shall be willing to listen to them.

As the Minister appears to be at a loss to find a solution to this important problem, may I ask whether he is aware that the National Union of Seamen, the officers' union and other relative trade unions have positive suggestions to make on the matter? Will he consult with them with a view to taking some steps to solve this very urgent problem?

I will write to the people concerned and ask them for their views.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the very unsatisfactory answer, I give notice that I will raise the matter at the first available opportunity.

asked the Minister of Transport what steps he is taking to prevent the serious decline in shipbuilding on the Clyde.

The problems facing shipbuilding on the Clyde are the same as those facing the industry as a whole, and derive from problems which are international, primarily the current depression in the shipping industry and the surplus of shipbuilding capacity throughout the world. The situation is being studied by a special sub-committee of the Shipbuilding Advisory Committee.

Is the Minister aware that, contrary to the evidence of some people and some public reports, the shipbuilding industry on the Clyde during the last two years spent hundreds of thousands of pounds and devoted considerable research towards making the shipyards on the Clyde equal to any in the world, and that Messrs. John Brown of Clydebank have laid down a new berth which can take ships of over 100,000 tons, with new engine shops and wonderful prefabrication bays, making it today the most modern shipyard in the world? Does he realise that we do not want that capacity to lie idle?

I am sure that we are all very pleased to hear that tribute to private enterprise. For our part, we are well aware that British shipbuilding is the finest in the world. The trouble is that there are not enough orders in the world, as my right hon Friend said in answer to earlier Questions this afternoon.

asked the Minister of Transport which reactor he has selected from the three he has had under consideration since last July for incorporation in the proposed experimental pilot nuclear-powered ship.

The complex task of evaluating the five tenders that have been received is proceeding as rapidly as possible, but will take some considerable time yet. I am not in a position to reach a decision until it is complete.

We have already been told how long this whole project will take to come to some conclusion. Cannot my right hon. Friend give us an idea now, in view of the fact that almost every country in the world is getting on with its nuclear propulsion and that I and a great many other people in this country very much regret the delay in Great Britain getting into the forefront of these developments which are of tremendous importance to our future?

I think it is an overstatement to say that every country in the world is getting on with the nuclear propulsion of ships. This is a technical committee which is sitting. It is not composed of Government officials only. We have on it the Atomic Energy Authority, shipbuilders, shipowners and Lloyd's Register. Until that technical committee reports, I really cannot do anything.

asked the Minister of Defence why the Service Departments will retain on 1st July, 1963, in the county of Hampshire 2,502 acres, and in the county of Berkshire 3,279 acres, more than were held on 1st July, 1939.

This additional land is needed for airfields and for naval support and training facilities.

Does not my right hon. Friend realise the degree to which counties near London are being put under pressure to accept London overspill and that this will mean the taking of good farming land unless the Services are willing to co-operate more with the civil authorities?

I quite see the difficulty here. The Services would be very glad to give up land if they could reasonably do so. The main reasons for this increase are the Greenham Common and Welford Airfields and the Royal Naval Air Station at Lee-on-Solent.

asked the Minister of Defence what proposals have been discussed for the establishment in Scotland of bases for servicing Polaris submarines.

asked the Minister of Defence if he will make a statement on present negotiations to set up a Polaris submarine base in west Scotland.

asked the Minister of Defence what requests he has received for United States submarines carrying the Polaris missile to be given facilities at British ports.

asked the Minister of Defence if he will make a statement on the negotiations for the provision of British bases for United States Polaris submarines.

Discussions have been going on, as has previously been stated in the House, with United States authorities about the possibility of providing certain facilities for United States Fleet Ballistic Missile Submarines in the United Kingdom. These discussions continue. Any agreement resulting from them will, of course, be announced first in the House.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that on the B.B.C. last week or the week before Mr. Ed Murrow stated that these Polaris submarines would be in telephonic communication only with the United States authorities, that their location would be known only to the United States and that the missiles would be completely in the control of the United States? If that is so, the bases from which these submarines are serviced should be in United States territory and not in the territory of another State which has no political control over their disposition or use.

I am not aware of what Mr. Ed Murrow said. As far as I know, he has no connection with the American Government.

May we assume from that reply that when the negotiations are completed there will be a statement revising yesterday's statement by the Prime Minister on the question of the control of air bases in this country? If the right hon. Gentleman and the Prime Minister continue to be as obscure as they have been in the past in this matter, they will continue to undermine public confidence in the alliance if they are unwilling to state the precise degree of political control this country must exercise over its N.A.T.O. defensive alliance.

What I have said is that the Government are anxious to make a full statement on this as soon as the discussions which are going on are concluded.

If one of the 16 Polaris missiles carried on each of the 45 submarines which America is proposing to build is fired against Russia, either by design or accident, is it not obvious that Russia, not immediately knowing the source of the missile, will wipe out all the possible bases from which it might have come, including our own country?

That is quite another question.

Can the Minister confirm that these bases will be occupied by supply tenders which will be loaded with spare missiles, thus adding to the number of targets which this country already offers to hostile rockets?

I think that it is much better to say no more until a proper and full statement can be given to the House.

Will the right hon. Gentleman now tell us that his statement will deal with the essential point that the right of veto on the use of these nuclear weapons will be somehow achieved in the case of Polaris submarines as in the case of aircraft?

I have listened very carefully to the various questions which have been put, and they are all very relevant matters.

Will the right hon. Gentleman assure us that, having failed to provide this country with an independent means of delivering the deterrent, he will at least make sure that we do everything in our power to see that the American method has our full co-operation and is efficient?

I am not sure that the hon. and learned Gentleman is doing anybody a service by pretending that what is politically inconvenient to him does not exist.

Is it not quite untrue to suggest that this country has not the means of independently delivering the deterrent?

It certainly has it at the moment in very great measure.

The right hon. Gentleman, in his reply, said that there was the possibility of an American base in the Clyde. Is he not aware that work on this has been going on for three years, that all communications are now prepared as far up as Glen Douglas and that there is now a boom at Fairley guarding the entrance to the Clyde? If it is merely a possibility, why have all these steps been taken?

This has nothing to do with the Question. I think that the hon. Gentleman may be confusing certain N.A.T.O. preparations which have been going on for three years.

asked the Minister of Defence if he will state the total expenditure on defence incurred by his Department, the three Service Departments, and the Ministry of Supply since the beginning of 1952.

Figures are only available by complete financial years. From 1st April, 1952, to 31st March, 1960, the total is estimated to have been £11,498 million.

Is this not a vast sum of money to have been expended in view of the fact that it appears that we have no adequate defence even at this time and that the Government are in a position of having to rely on the American deterrent and American means of defence? Where has all the money gone? Are we going on spending money in this foolish fashion and getting nothing for it?

That is the right hon. Gentleman's own personal view. It is not shared by a great many other people.

asked the Lord Privy Seal what information he has received concerning compensation for Mr. Topham from the Cuban Government.

As my hon. Friend is aware, this question was raised with the President of Cuba by Her Majesty's Ambassador in Havana at his farewell interview on 28th June. His successor reminded the Cuban Minister of Foreign Affairs of this in a personal letter on 16th August and asked whether the President had yet formed an opinion about the case.

No reply has yet been received to this letter, and on 17th October Her Majesty's Consul at Havana again raised the matter in the course of an interview with the Assistant-Director of the Judicial Department of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, who undertook to urge that the personal attention of the Minister should be once again drawn to this matter.

In view of the fact that this has gone on for over five years and that the policeman who shot this man was on the other side from the present President, is it not possible to suggest to the President that it might therefore be a very good idea if he could do something personally about it?

As my hon. Friend has heard, this matter has been drawn directly to the attention of the President of Cuba. I think that we should await the result of the exchanges which took place as recently as 17th October to see whether they have any effect.

asked the Lord Privy Seal what further steps he now proposes to take to obtain compensation for the British-owned Anglo-Argentine Tramways.

The British Company's claim for compensation was rejected by the Court of First Instance in Buenos Aires in July last. An appeal has been lodged but the hearing of this has not yet begun. Meanwhile I understand that the company has indicated to the Argentine Government its readiness to negotiate an out-of-court settlement. Her Majesty's Ambassador in Buenos Aires will continue to give the company such help as may be possible and appropriate to bring this about.

asked the Lord Privy Seal what arrangements have now been made to terminate the detention of the three Bahreinis imprisoned in St. Helena.

asked the Lord Privy Seal what consideration he has now given to the release of Bahreini prisoners now in custody at St. Helena; and with what result.

I regret that it is not possible for me to make a statement at this moment, but I will do so as soon as possible.

May we hope that there will be an early statement, in view of the fact that the present Chancellor of the Exchequer gave an undertaking that representations would be made for the termination of the sentence of these men and the righting of this scandalous miscarriage of justice? Can the right hon. Gentleman give an undertaking that, if and when these men are released from detention, they will be allowed to go to the country of their choice?

I do not think that I can accept the phrasing of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, nor give the undertaking for which he asks, but I recall the undertaking given by the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I was in the House when he gave it. I will make a statement as early as possible.

Whilst I appreciate that further consideration is being undertaken, may I ask the Minister whether investigations are being made into the circumstances in which the Official Gazette in St. Helena revealed the conviction of these men before the trial took place in Bahrein?

That is an entirely separate question.