asked the Minister of Education what consultations he has had with interested bodies, following his consideration of the proposal submitted to him by the Authors' Society for a public lending right, about methods of providing for the remuneration of authors and publishers for books supplied to public and lending libraries.

I advised the promoters to discuss their proposals with the local authority associations and other library interests, and I also asked those bodies to take part in these discussions.

asked the Minister of Education whether he has considered the petition sent to him and signed by 2,736 inhabitants of Lewisham and other places for the rebuilding of St. John's School, Lewisham; and if he is now prepared to give his consent to the inclusion of this school in the London County Council school rebuilding programme.

Yes, Sir. I have approved the rebuilding of this school as one of several projects to complete the London County Council's building programme for 1962–63.

May I thank the Minister for that reply and say with what satisfaction it will be greeted by the inhabitants of my constituency who wish to continue to send their children to this very important school?

asked the Minister of Education what steps he proposes to take to encourage research and teaching in the design of machine tools in colleges for which he has financial responsibility, in accordance with the recommendations of the Mitchell Committee.

Officers of my Department are meeting representatives of the machine tool industry on this subject tomorrow.

When the right hon. Gentleman does so, will he consider asking the representatives of the industry whether they would be prepared to support financially—in other words, to found—departments of machine tool design in some of the colleges of technology?

There are three colleges already, Birmingham, Loughborough and Salford, which have courses that have a bias toward the machine tool industry. I will bear the hon. Gentleman's point in mind.

Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that the Melman Report will be published and that there is no need for us to learn Italian?

I shall need notice of that supplementary question.

asked the Minister of Education whether his attention has been drawn to the syllabus and specimen question paper for the Ordinary Grade, Modern Studies Course, for the Scottish Certificate of Education; and whether he will take steps to bring this to the attention of the relevant authorities in England and Wales.

I have seen these papers and I am sure that the examining bodies and schools will be interested in this proposal, but I doubt whether this particular syllabus would fit the rather different circumstances of schools in England and Wales.

While not dissenting from the Minister's last comment, may I ask whether he would agree that this is rather a notable attempt to make Scottish secondary school children aware that they are citizens of a shrinking world, and will he take steps to encourage English schools to do something on similar lines?

I am a little doubtful whether modern studies ought to replace history and geography. I believe that that is one of the ideas.

asked the Minister of Education when he expects to have completed the reformation of the United Kingdom Commission to the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation; and whether he will make a statement.

The new national Commission was constituted in time to allow its members to meet the members of the Executive Board of U.N.E.S.C.O. when the latter visited the United Kingdom as guests of the Government in May. The first formal meeting was on 4th October.

A number of advisory committees have been set up and most of them held meetings before the start of the present session of the General Conference of U.N.E.S.C.O.

Is the Minister aware that there will be a good deal of support for his efforts at Paris to make U.N.E.S.C.O. a more effective international body and, in particular, for his idea that 10 per cent. of international aid should be earmarked for educational development? Is the right hon. Gentleman also aware that there is a good deal of concern at the fact that the national Commission in this country is not a very active body, and will he match his efforts overseas by endeavouring to get the national Commission to be similarly vigorous in this country?

I shall need all the support that I can get to make U.N.E.S.C.O. an efficient body, and I will try to give the United Kingdom Commission a larger share in future.

asked the Minister of Education what proposals he has for expanding and improving the facilities for further education in commercial subjects.

The proposals contained in the McMeeking Report on Further Education for Commerce which was published last year have been actively followed up by my department. I am sending my hon. Friend the circulars issued on this important branch of further education.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for that reply—and I look forward to receiving the fuller details—may I ask him whether he is aware of the gap that seems to exist for generally recognised qualifications, between certificates of competence in clerical jobs and stenography, on the one hand, and membership of the highly specialised professional institutes, on the other? Would he consider the establishment of a generally recognised advanced-level course and qualification in commerce similar to the diploma of technology on the technical side?

That point is under consideration at the moment.

asked the Minister of Education how many, and what percentage, of teachers in special schools at the beginning of the autumn term had received appropriate specialist training; how these figures compare with the beginning of the autumn term 1959; and how many certificated teachers are now attending full-time specialist training courses.

As the Answer contains a number of figures, I will circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that it is precisely in those areas of general shortage of teachers that there is a shortage of specialist teachers? What steps is he taking to persuade the local authorities there to release them for extra training? What steps is he taking to overcome the general shortage?

There are 248 teachers attending full-time specialist training courses. We propose to increase this number and to make more places available in the years immediately ahead.

asked the Minister of Education how many special schools are without trained physiotherapy staff.

Twenty-eight of the 131 boarding and day special schools which provide for physically handicapped children were without trained physiotherapy staff in November, 1959, when a special survey was made. In 24 of these, mainly day schools, children needing treatment received it at local hospitals or clinics and two schools had facilities for providing treatment, but were temporarily without staff.

In view of the general shortage in the hospital service as well, what steps is the hon. Gentleman taking in consultation with his right hon. Friend to improve the general supply of this type of trained staff?

The supply of physiotherapists is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health, and I know that he has this shortage under consideration.

asked the Minister of Education if he will make a statement on the proposed reorganisation of technical education.

I hope to publish my proposals as a White Paper early in January.

While we look forward to the White Paper with interest, may I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware that he promised this before Christmas. Will the White Paper cover compulsory day release for those who require it?

No, the White Paper will not cover that subject.

Has the right hon. Gentleman any further statement to make on that subject?

The conversations are proceeding, and they are bound to be very lengthy.

asked the Minister of Education to what extent classes of excessive size in the administrative county of Essex have increased or decreased in number during the past twelve months; what is the prospect during the ensuing two years; of what type of teacher there is a shortage; and if the number of part or whole time or nominally retired teachers is increasing.

During 1959 the number of over-size classes increased by 1·5 per cent. I expect a small improvement this year and next. The authority is short of teachers of physical education, house-craft and handicraft, of mathematics and science teachers in modern schools, and of teachers in infants schools. The number of full-time and part-time teachers is steadily increasing but the number of teachers over 60 has declined since 1957.

Is the Minister aware that many classes in schools in Essex are excessive in size and that it is feared that the classes will be even larger next year? Under these circumstances, what is being especially done to try to cope with this situation?

I am aware of the difficulties in Essex, where the school population has increased so fast. We are attempting to help through the quota system for teachers and also by training more teachers and trying to get married women to return to schools.

Is the Minister aware of the present lack of incentives to retired teachers, especially those who retired some years ago? Will he take steps to encourage those over 60 by providing better incentives than those at present given to retired teachers?

The financial arrangements for retired teachers are on all-fours with the rest of the Civil Service.

asked the Minister of Education how many new or reconstructed denominational schools have been opened during the past year; for what denominations; how many agreed plans for each denomination provide for new or reconstructed schools during the next five years; and if the financial arrangements in respect of those schools are working satisfactorily.

The answer to the first and second parts of the Question is 66, of which 52 are Roman Catholic, 9 Church of England and 5 of other denominations. The building programmes for the three years 1960–63, which are the latest so far settled, contain 406 voluntary schools of which 290 are Roman Catholic, 106 Church of England and 10 of other denominations. The financial arrangements introduced by the Education Act, 1959, are working satisfactorily.

What does the Minister mean by "other denominations"? Will he specify them and indicate whether some of the smaller denominations are now being stimulated into building schools which otherwise would not have been built? Is there any sign of an increasing demand that public money granted for this purpose shall amount to 100 per cent.?

I am always anxious that the other denominations should get their share. I think that it is fair to say that the present grant arrangements are working satisfactorily.

What are the other denominations?

asked the Minister of Education if, in view of the large number of deaths from drowning in Great Britain due to inability to swim and in order to encourage children attending schools under his jurisdiction to learn to swim, he will institute a prize or certificate to be awarded to such of those children as can pass a swimming test.

No, Sir. There is an excellent scheme of tests and certificates organised by the Royal Life Saving Society. I think it is better to rely on this.

Has not the right hon. Gentleman realised that the scheme is not sufficiently "excellent", as he calls it, to reduce the number of deaths? He has done nothing of a concrete character during the last few years to encourage it. Will not he reconsider my suggestion to provide a certificate to encourage children to learn to swim?

I am not sure that that is fair on the Royal Life Saving Society, which awarded 127,000 certificates of proficiency last year. Many local authorities pay the Society's examination fees for children in their schools, which I think is a good thing.

asked the Minister of Education if he is aware that the provision of a junior school for the Thames View Estate, Barking, has been recommended repeatedly by the local education authority, and that, for the want of this school a large number of children from this estate must daily cross a dangerous by-pass road to attend schools at considerable distances from their homes; and why, in view of his statement in 1959 that this project had a strong claim for inclusion in the 1962–63 school building programme, it has now been excluded from that programme.

Yes, Sir. As the hon. Member knows, measures have been taken to meet the traffic dangers. I could not include the new school in the 1962–63 building programme because of the more pressing needs of other areas.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the road danger is not the only reason for thinking that this school has a strong claim for inclusion in that programme? Another main factor in the argument is that the apparent surplus accommodation in other schools, on which I think the Minister relies to some extent, may also be temporary.

I will look at the situation again, but it was very carefully considered when the programme was made up.

asked the Minister of Education what progress has been made with the establishment of a national college for the training of youth leaders.

A college has been established at Leicester and will open on 30th January. Ninety places, for men and women students, are available on the first course. There have been 240 applications so far, and 57 of the first 130 candidates interviewed have been accepted.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that his Answer will be received with great interest by all those concerned with the future of the Youth Service? He is to be congratulated on the progress made.

Can the Minister let us know what salary arrangements will be made for people who undergo training at this college? Is there a national scale which will apply to them?

We have spent many months trying to get a salary arrangement for youth leaders and I hope that we are now coming somewhere near it. It has been a most extraordinarily difficult negotiation.

asked the Minister of Education when he expects the reorganisation of schools to be completed.

The last of the necessary building work will be included in the 1964–65 programme. As a result, it should be possible to complete reorganisation by September, 1967.

Can the Minister indicate just how that will affect the Cornish programme of replacement, about which he has had so many Questions recently?

I am afraid that I could not, without very considerable investigation.

asked the Minister of Education to what extent he has achieved his aim of providing new day training colleges in the most heavily populated areas.

There were 17,303, compared with 16,417. This is a record entry, for which the colleges deserve our thanks.

Can my right hon. Friend yet say whether he thinks the establishment of these day colleges—

Wrong Question.

—is producing any entrants to the teaching profession who would not have come in without the establishment of these colleges?

I think that that is so, because the day colleges take people who are home-based, and who, perhaps, could not get training unless there was somewhere to do it within range of where they live.

asked the Minister of Education how many students were admitted for courses of initial training in all kinds of teacher training colleges this autumn compared with the year before.

Five day colleges, including new ones at Swinton in the West Riding, Chorley in Lancashire, and Brentwood in Essex, will be in service by January, 1961.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Have we not got these two Answers the wrong way round? The Minister answered Question No. 19 by replying to Question No. 20, and now the process is being reversed.

Then we shall get two Questions answered at once, which will be splendid.

I apologise. May I, Mr. Speaker, with your permission, be allowed to complete the Answer that I had intended for No. 19—at this season of the year it has gone wrong. There are three other new day colleges—in London, Wolverhampton and Newcastle—planned to open in September, 1961.

Perhaps I may be allowed to ask a supplementary question to Question No. 19. Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many students applied this year for entrance to training colleges but could not get places?

No, not without notice.

asked the Minister of Education, as representing the Minister for Science, how many meetings have been held between the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research and the Shipbuilding Conference to discuss the findings of the Department's report on shipbuilding and marine engineering; and whether he will make a statement on the outcome.

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. P. Williams) on 1st December. The decision to publish the report was taken at the seventh meeting between the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research and the Shipbuilding Conference.

Can the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that the report when published will not be an emasculated version? Can he say also what further steps and discussions are taking place with a view to improving the industry's facilities for research, particularly in marine engineering?

The report, when published, will be the only report. It will be the report that the meetings between the D.S.I.R. and the Shipbuilding Conference have agreed upon. On the second part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, I will consult my noble Friend.

Does that mean that the report is not the original report as made by D.S.I.R.?

There never has been an original report. There has been only a draft which has been discussed.

Will the draft be published?

The completed report will come out, as is normal in these matters, after discussion of various drafts.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will give details of the constitutional discussions regarding the future of Northern Rhodesia; and when he expects to introduce proposals for a new constitution for the Territory.

The Northern Rhodesia territorial constitutional conference will open in London on Tuesday of next week. I cannot, of course, forecast what the results of the conference will be.

While complimenting the Colonial Secretary on arranging the Northern Rhodesian conference concurrently with the Federal review, may I ask him whether he will be applying the same principles to Northern Rhodesia as he applied to Nyasaland?

I think that it would be unwise to give any such assurance. No sensible man ever shows his cards, before the game starts, to the other people playing.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies to what extent housing segregation on racial lines still exists in Northern Rhodesia; and to what extent it is Government policy to eliminate this as soon as possible.

There is no law to compel members of different races to live in separate areas. Housing segregation on racial lines exists only to the extent that local authorities are required by law to provide housing areas for the benefit of Africans employed within their boundaries.

Will my right hon. Friend recognise that in certain areas in Northern Rhodesia—and, certainly, in the Copperbelt—there is, in fact if not in law, a good deal of housing segregation on racial lines? Will he do his best to get this broken down, particularly for the emergent middle-class type of African who could afford to buy a better house in a better area if he were allowed to do so?

Northern Rhodesia has recently made splendid strides in these matters, as I am sure the House will recognise. The explanation of the first part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question may well be that many of the largest employers of labour in Africa including, in this particular case, the mining companies do provide housing for Africans.

Would it not assist the right hon. Gentleman in his endeavours if he were to democratise local authorities a good deal more in Northern Rhodesia?

Hear, hear.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why permission has been given to the United States Navy to survey the territorial waters of the Bahamas with a view to establishing an undersea rocket-testing centre; and if the Government and Legislature of the Bahamas were consulted.

I see no reason why permission for a survey, carrying no commitment to allow the establishment of an operational facility, should have been withheld. The Governor of the Bahamas was consulted before permission was given. There will, of course, be further consultation with the Bahamas should any more positive proposals be put forward as a result of the survey.

Does the Colonial Secretary seriously put forward the view that, with these great issues involved, a survey should be carried out without any discussion with the Government of the Bahamas or with its Legislature? Would he not follow the much better precedent he pursued in the case of the West Indies of having negotiations between America and the representatives of those Governments?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman knows that the two cases are not parallel in the least. The answer to the first part of his supplementary question is, "Yes, I do think it appropriate in this case." Naturally, if a firm application were put forward later for a plan, for which I should require considerable details, then, of course, the Executive Council and the Government would be closely consulted.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he proposes to make English a compulsory subject at all schools in Sarawak.

No, Sir. English is already taught as a subject in all schools in Sarawak.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will now make a statement regarding the report of the Sinclair Committee on the future of the Colonial Development Corporation.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies when he intends to publish the Government's proposals for dealing with the financial structure of the Colonial Development Corporation.

I shall make a statement as soon as I can. For the moment, I cannot add to what I said in reply to the Question by the hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. G. M. Thomson) on 8th November; that is, that I am in close consultation with the Corporation on the complicated issues involved.

Whatever the outcome may be of these very long-drawn-out and complex talks, will my right hon. Friend give us an assurance that he will not allow the Treasury to hamstring the C.D.C.? Would he reaffirm that it is still his view that C.D.C. is the Government's primary agency for this important work, and that he will give the fullest possible support to the very experienced and successful management and staff of the Corporation?

I can certainly give those assurances, but I should also like to add that my hon. Friend must not assume that the Treasury is being difficult in this case. That, of course, is a popular assumption which may sometimes be true. It is not true in this case.

Do the Government accept the important recommendations of the Sinclair Report, or is it true to assume that these long-drawn-out discussions are because the Government's proposals were so inadequate that the Corporation could not possibly be expected to accept them?

No. With respect, that is not the situation. It is a very complicated story, and if the hon. Lady would like to talk about it with me, I will give her as much background as I can. We had almost reached finality in our discussions when new proposals were put forward by the Corporation itself.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will indicate the approximate average cost of Parliamentary Questions to the Colonial Office which have to be referred to Colonial Territories for answer; and what is the average extra cost when they are placed on the Order Paper at short notice.

It would be impracticable to attempt to estimate the cost, in terms of staff time, of preparing an Answer to a Parliamentary Question. Referring Questions to overseas Governments costs 2s. 6d. if time permits the use of airmail. When such Questions are placed on the Order Paper at short notice, the extra cost to the Colonial Office and the overseas Government arising from telegraphic communication is from £10 to £100.

Does not the very large discrepancy involved indicate the desirability, wherever it is possible so to do, of hon. Members putting down their Questions to the Table Office in very good time so as to avoid using the very expensive telegraphic service?

Of course, if the House is seized with a passion for economy in this matter, hon. Members need not put down any Questions at all.

Will the right hon. Gentleman add to the information he has given by telling us what was the cost of answering this Question and how much would have been saved if it had been put down for Written Answer instead of Oral Answer?

I imagine that the only cost involved in answering this Question is that of staff time in the Colonial Office in doing the exercise, and, as I said, that cannot be calculated.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if the leaders of the majority parties represented in the Executive Councils of the new Legislatures of Kenya and Uganda will be given the status of chief ministers.

There is no provision in the new constitutions for Kenya and Uganda for the appointment of a Chief Minister. I cannot at present say when this further step will be taken.

Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise—I am sure that he does—that the very important principle is involved here of the advance of these countries to the status of responsible Government? In view of the proposal of Mr. Julius Nyerere in Tanganyika that the solution for the Central African Federation would be to extend it to East Africa as soon as responsible Government is given, is it not desirable that early steps should be taken in that direction?

The hon. Member is quite right in saying that this question has a relevance to the proposals of Mr. Nyerere, which, of course, interest the whole House, and have aroused widespread interest in East Africa, but in my view one cannot anticipate the results of these two elections. I do not even know, for example, whether there will be a majority party, which the hon. Gentleman assumes in his Question. I think that much the best thing for both Kenya and Uganda is to get on with the election, and then we can study the results when we know them.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies (1) if he is aware of the deteriorating position of the fishing industry in Malta; when the 1955 report of Mr. Tom Burdon on the revival of this industry will be implemented; and if he will make a statement;

(2) how many loans and how many grants were made to fishermen under the Agriculture and Fisheries (Malta) Act, 1956; and how many vessels obtained a grant out of the Estimates made for this purpose during 1959–60 and 1960–61.

Most of the main recommendations of the Burdon Report have been implemented and the industry has expanded. Five trawlers have been acquired with loan assistance and two with grant assistance under Maltese legislation, all prior to 1959–60.

Is the Colonial Secretary aware that my information is that the position of the fishing industry in Malta is very serious indeed, and calls for urgent attention and assistance, from this Government? Is he further aware that in 1955 Mr. Tom Burdon made a report recommending the building of twelve trawlers; that out of the twelve trawlers then recommended only seven—six large ones and one small—have been built—and that fishermen have now gone out of business and are selling their trawlers? Will he do something to assist the industry before its position gets any worse?

My information about the deterioration of the industry does not agree with the hon. Gentleman's, but I know that he is well-informed in these matters, and I will look into what he says in the light of his Question. Perhaps I can add that my fisheries adviser is going to Malta next month to advise on those points.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what plans there are for representation of the people of Buganda in the Central Legislative Council of Uganda after the forthcoming general election in Uganda, in view of the very small registration of electors in Buganda.

The representation of Buganda has already been provided for in the arrangements for Protectorate-wide elections to be held next March. Although the number of electors who have registered in Buganda is small in comparison with those who have registered elsewhere, I nevertheless hope that this will not materially prejudice the quality of Buganda's representation in the new Legislature.

Do we seriously intend to go ahead with these elections in Buganda if there is no improvement in the number of registrations, or will we admit that in this particular trial of strength the Kabaka's Government have won?

The answer to whether we will go ahead with elections is beyond question, "Yes". I am sure that my hon. Friend will recognise that the one thing that the rest of the Protectorate is very much afraid of indeed is that we will not go ahead with the elections throughout the Protectorate. I am certain that it would be right to do so. I have done everything I can through the Relations Commission, the chairman of which is at present in Uganda, to allay the anxieties of the Baganda in this matter.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his policy in Uganda is extremely wise in present circumstances and that it is in the best interests of all the Uganda people that Buganda should not become a separate independent State as intended on 1st January? Will he confirm that a central and democratic Legislative Council will be created?

I hope that both sides of the House will realise that there are, as it were, two barrels to my policy. The first is that there should be Protectorate-wide elections. It is a very difficult policy, but I believe that it is right, in spite of the situation in Buganda. Secondly, I believe that, through the medium of the Relationships Commission, we should try to do what we can to meet the anxieties of those in Buganda and the other Agreement Districts throughout the Protectorate.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the refraining of the vast majority of the Baganda from registering for these elections is due to a deep-seated fear of a possible injustice by Her Majesty's Government as a result of their handing over power to a central Legislature which might have power over the very structure of the Buganda Kingdom itself?

With respect, I am not sure that that is right. If it were, surely by far the best course for the Baganda to take is, as they could do, to use their full power through the ballot box in the Legislative Council for the whole Protectorate.

Is the Relationships Commission empowered to report adversely about the holding of elections in March if the chairman and other members of it discover on their rounds in Uganda that that would be the wisest course?

I suppose that that is not strictly within their terms of reference, but if the chairman wished to make representations to me on those matters, of course I would consider them.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will give an assurance that Mr. Jomo Kenyatta will be released in Kenya.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will give an assurance that Jomo Kenyatta will not be released in Kenya.

No, Sir.

Before I ask my supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, will the Colonial Secretary say which was the Question to which he replied "No"?

The hon. Gentleman is not at his brightest today. He asked me for an assurance, and my hon. Friend the Member for Yarmouth (Mr. Fell) asked for an assurance in precisely the contrary sense. I am not prepared to give either assurance.

I thank the Colonial Secretary for that clarity. Is he aware that he is flying in the face of reality in this matter, and that there is an overwhelming mass of people in Kenya who want Mr. Kenyatta to be released and they will express their will after the elections in March? Would it not be better if Mr. Kenyatta were released and allowed to return to political life before the elections?

If I may say so, I do not agree with that analysis. It is easy to find people who take different points of view on this question in every single race in Kenya. I am certain that we should leave it, as we have done in the past, to the decision of the Governor, although, naturally, in a matter of this importance the Governor would not act without the full accord and support of Her Majesty's Government.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will give details of the incident off Cape Farvel, Greenland, in October of this year, when British trawlers were fired on by foreign forces.

After making careful inquiries, my right hon. Friend has been unable to obtain confirmation of the incident to which the hon. and learned Member refers.

Will the hon. Gentleman agree that it is time that incidents of this kind were avoided by settling the economic grievances out of which they arise, with consequent saving of time, money and energy by Her Majesty's Government?

Naturally, one does not like grievances to persist, but I do not think that that arises out of the hon. and learned Member's Question.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he has now decided to allow the importation of Charollais bulls into this country.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will now state what action he proposes to take on the Terrington Report.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he can now make a statement regarding the importation into the United Kingdom of Charollais bulls, in the light of the serious outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease.

The Secretary of State for Scotland and I have carefully considered the Committee's Report and have taken into account the views of all the organisations concerned. We agree with the Committee that there is a good case for a trial of some Charollais bulls imported under the strictest veterinary control.

The Secretary of State and I are satisfied from the expert advice available to us that with the extremely strict precautions which would be taken there could be no risk of introducing disease into this country. We have had, however, to take into account the possible effect upon the international livestock trade if the proposed importation of Charollais from France were proceeded with at this juncture.

While, therefore, we accept in principle the desirability of trying the Charollais experiment at a convenient opportunity, we are not proposing to proceed with the importation for the time being. In the meantime, we shall do all we can to demonstrate that no risk is involved in our experiment to justify any restrictions on our exports.

We are very much indebted to Lord Terrington and his Committee for the careful thought which they gave to this subject and for their very helpful Report.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that that Answer will be received with great appreciation by progressive cattle breeders in this country? Knowing the care which my right hon. Friend's Ministry takes to prevent the importation of disease, may I ask whether he can indicate when he hopes to be able to implement his decision?

It involves consultation with other countries and I should not like to say at the moment.

Does my right hon. Friend realise that his determination not to turn down this project will be received with great relief by commercial beef producers? Is he aware that there will be ready acceptance of the fact that to introduce cattle into the country at the present time, with foot-and-mouth disease as it is, would be a grave risk? Will my right hon. Friend, however, do something about this matter at the earliest possible opportunity consistent with removing the disease risk?

Yes, Sir. I am anxious to get on with this experiment as soon as we can overcome the difficulties which I have mentioned.

To ensure better Government control, can my right hon. Friend say that when the Charollais bulls come over, the trials will be carried out at Government experimental farms?

We have a long way to go in the experimentation in progeny trials with beef animals and I am anxious that more should be done. If breed societies or others have any proposals, I will gladly look at them to see in what way we can assist. The facilities available to my Department in this respect are, however, strictly limited.

Is the Minister aware that this decision will give great satisfaction to progressive farmers, particularly dairy farmers, but that there will be disappointment at the delay and that I hope he will ensure that it is as short as possible? How does the Minister propose to choose the bulls? I hope he knows that the British Charollais Bulls Committee, of which the hon. Member for Enfield, East happens to be chairman, is at his service.

Yes, Sir. If we can reach the decision that we can go forward with this importation, we would choose them from the spring calvings.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what representations he has received in favour of importing stocks of certified Oregon Blue Tag perennial ryegrass; and if he proposes to authorise limited imports of this seed.

My right hon. Friend has received no representations from organisations representing seeds interests, but my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland has received a request from the trade organisation in Scotland. Representations have also been received from some seed merchants. After considering the supply position, it has been decided not to authorise imports of this seed.

Would not my hon. Friend agree that there appears to be a certain amount of inconsistency of policy in this matter in that a commodity which is in extremely short supply and, therefore, extremely expensive, is not being allowed in, whereas at a time when the markets are glutted with barley, large imports of barley are allowed in?

I do not think there is any inconsistency. There is no evidence that supplies from normal sources will not be sufficient for our needs. There is conflicting evidence about the suitability of this Oregon seed for use in our climatic conditions.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he is satisfied that the further measures announced by the Argentine Secretary of Agriculture to confine foot-and-mouth disease in Argentina will reduce the risk of infection being brought here in meat from Argentina; and if he proposes to have further consultations with the Argentine authorities to ensure that everything possible is done to minimise this risk.

I hope the new measures will have a good effect, but we can only wait and see. My officers stationed in the Argentine are in close touch with the authorities there, who are well aware of our views.

Can my right hon. Friend tell us a little more about the probable effect of the measures to be taken by the Argentine authorities? Do we understand that compulsory vaccination is to be introduced over a wide area of the Argentine, including particularly stock moving into the meat works that ultimately may come here?

A decree has been passed into law enabling regulations to be made for compulsory vaccination, and I understand that a start is likely to be made shortly.