asked the Postmaster-General if he is satisfied that the group of telephone manufacturers which is responsible for the production and supply of telephone equipment for his Department are meeting his requirements adequately; and if he will make a statement.

The answer to the first part of the Question is: in general, yes. As to the second, my right hon. Friend has no statement to make, but if the hon. Member has any point particularly in mind and will let my right hon. Friend know he will, of course, be glad to consider it.

At the time when Mr. Stanley of the Pye Company was taking over the telephone manufacturing ring, he made a promise to the Department that he could assure it of reduced prices. Do I take it, therefore that those assurances have been met and that the Post Office is satisfied that we are to get cheaper equipment?

I think that, on the whole, our present arrangements are working very well.

asked the Postmaster-General his policy in regard to the provision of public telephone kiosks.

Each case is considered on its merits. Clearly I have to have regard to financial considerations, but I do my best to meet real public needs.

Are we to understand that the Postmaster-General is now insisting that every new public telephone kiosk must be a paying proposition? If that is so, is that not a complete contradiction of the policy which has been followed hitherto?

No, Sir, but in rural areas kiosks are provided wherever a reasonable return can be expected and they are outside rural post offices. In addition, rural kiosks are provided under a rural allocation scheme and the programme is drawn up by the local people. I can assure the hon. Member that we try to provide telephone kiosks where there is a real need for them, but we have to have regard to financial considerations.

asked the Postmaster-General whether he will make a further statement regarding his investigations into the possibility of a British telecommunications research satellite and its commercial application.

I would refer the hon. Member to my right hon. Friend's reply of 1st December, 1960, to the hon. Member for Barnsley (Mr. Mason).

Is the hon. Lady aware that these Answers are becoming a bit of a bore and that we wait month after month without any clear idea from the Post Office about what it is doing regarding this very important project? Is she aware that suspicion is growing that the Post Office has not the technical competence to form a proper judgment about this very important development in the field of communications? What sort of investigation is actually taking place at the moment?

We are very well aware of the importance of this development and our technical staff are working very closely with the Americans. Of course, these are early days, but I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we shall not lag behind.

Can the hon. Lady tell the House exactly what research we have conducted? Have any British scientists and engineers taken steps towards the development of a satellite which may be used for communication purposes and to what extent have they worked with Post Office engineers in this matter?

That is another question and if the hon. Member will put it on the Order Paper, I shall be glad to answer him.

Is the hon. Lady aware that two American companies, Bell and another company, have taken considerable steps towards putting forward practical proposals? Can she tell us whether the British Post Office has got as far in this respect?

We are working very closely with the Americans.

asked the Postmaster-General when he proposes to consult the Independent Television Authority under subsection (4) of section 4 of the Television Act, 1954, with a view to reducing the maximum amount of advertising in any hour from seven minutes to six minutes.

My right hon. Friend does not propose to amend paragraph 2 of the Second Schedule of the Television Act.

Is the hon. Lady aware that by permitting in the past up to nine-and-a-half minutes advertising in the hour I.T.A. has bestowed more than £10 million of excess profits on the programme companies? May I ask, first, why this scandal is permitted and, secondly, why the maximum is now seven minutes instead of six minutes as originally promised in the House of Commons?

I think that the hon. Gentleman knows the difficulties. There has to be a certain amount of flexibility because of the nature of the programmes. I.T.A. is bringing the time down to seven minutes and we are watching this carefully, but there are difficulties about getting these things just spot on.

asked the Secretary of State for Air whether the exceptional amount of rain this autumn has stimulated research into the causes of periods of heavy rain; whether any lines of research useful for forecasting such periods are being developed; and if he will make a statement.

The exceptional amount of rain in recent months has been the subject of careful study in the Meteorological Office, but there is still no reliable method of undertaking the necessary long-range forecasting.

Research continues and is not without promise, but the problems involved are extremely complicated.

Would my hon. Friend agree that it would be a great help to poor people in the West Country to make preparations against floods if they could know which seasons are likely to be bad ones from a rain point of view? Is he aware that considerable research is going on in Germany and the United States of America into long-range weather forecasting? Will he make a priority in the Meteorological Office of bringing the matter forward?

It would indeed be a great help to people in the West Country, and in the rest of the country, to have more accurate, or probably longer-range, meteorological forecasts. The problem will be solved ultimately, we think, but it will probably take years of research to do so. The whole world must be studied and more observations are needed from many parts, especially the tropics and the southern hemisphere. The high atmosphere must be further explored—for example, by rockets and satellites—and elaborate calculations, using the most advanced computers, are likely to be necessary. A report on long-range weather forecasting is being prepared by a Commission of the World Meteorological Organisation and will be discussed at a forthcoming meeting. The possibility of advancing the subject by international effort will be fully considered.

asked the Secretary of State for Air whether, before awarding an air-trooping contract to West Germany for British Army and Royal Air Force personnel to Silver City Airways, he invited British European Airways to tender.

No, Sir.

Is it not unfair, considering the support which the British taxpayer gives to B.E.A., that it should not be allowed to tender in fair competition with a private undertaking, against which we have heard no complaint?

Government policy in this matter has been explained to the House on many occasions. That policy, broadly, is that apart from a small number of ad hoc movements which have been undertaken, and apart from carriage of individual passengers on scheduled civil airlines, the independent civil operators carry out the air movement tasks and the national Corporations are asked to concentrate on the task of operating scheduled services in the face of tight international competition.

Is not the party opposite in favour of competition? Why does competition have to be excluded when the taxpayer has an interest in one of the competing bodies? This is very odd, is it not?

Not at all; the air Corporations have a very important task, and an expanding task. I think that they have their work cut out to keep up to the progress required in that direction.

asked the Minister of Transport when he anticipates being in a position to take action, following the inquiry held at Windermere on 20th September, 1960, with regard to the need for additional safety rules on the lake, in view of the increasing use of fast motor boats.

We are considering the recommendations made by the professional officer who held the inquiry and we expect to be able to reach a decision shortly.

We are most grateful to my hon. Friend for the speed with which he has got on with dealing with the problem, but may I ask him to bear in mind when reaching a decision the very important recommendation that there should be at least two people in a motor boat when it is towing a water skier—one looking where the boat is going and one looking at the skier?

I have no doubt that that point was taken into account by our professional officer at the inquiry, but I will see that it is kept in mind.

Will my hon. Friend look at this matter from a national point of view before taking action in a particular area, because it is a growing problem in all areas? Will he take the advice of the Ship and Boat Builders National Federation on the matter?

I have to bear in mind that we are concerned with navigation on this particular lake, but I think we may learn very useful lessons as a result of the inquiry, and to that extent I agree with my hon. Friend.

asked the Minister of Transport, in view of the fact that his Department's standard life jacket does not comply with the Merchant Shipping (Life Saving Appliances) Rules, 1958, No. 602, Eleventh Schedule, Clause 3 (a), (b) and (c), except when worn by persons of light weight, what steps he is taking to approve life jackets already being manufactured which fully conform to these requirements laid down by him.

From tests carried out by my Department, I am satisfied that the standard jacket complies with these requirements even when worn by heavy persons. My Department is always willing to test any design of lifejacket to see if it complies with the rules.

Would my right hon. Friend look at this matter again, because independent tests recently carried out showed that anybody of 15 stone or more would be turned over on to his face by this jacket? This is a very serious thing in the case of people who are either unconscious or unable to move.

I have looked at the particular demonstration to which my hon. Friend has referred, but the requirement is that the jacket should be able to support the head of an unconscious person out of the water and all these tests have taken place with a conscious person. It is very difficult for a conscious person to simulate an unconscious person.

asked the Minister of Transport when he will announce the award of a tender for the construction of the first British nuclear-powered merchant ship.

I regret that I am not yet in a position to forecast when a decision will be reached.

When will my right hon. Friend be able to reach a decision? Is he aware that there is a suspicion that the Atomic Energy Authority and its advisers are dragging their feet in this matter and that several nations will have ships at sea before we can possibly do so? Is he aware that any further delay may have grave repercussions on our future as a shipbuilding nation and even as a maritime Power?

This is a very complicated matter. Not only the Atomic Energy Authority is on this technical committee; there are shipbuilders, shipowners and Lloyd's Register. None of them has complained that the Atomic Energy Authority is dragging its feet. I can assure my hon. Friend that that is not so.

asked the Minister of Transport what steps he will now take to prevent the poisoning of the air in large towns by fumes from motor vehicles, including visible smoke from diesel engines, to enforce the testing of engines which have been observed by police officers to emit excessive or unnecessary smoke, and to require the necessary adjustments or improvements to be made to such engines; and whether he has studied regulations on this subject now in operation in the City of Durban, proposals for similar action in the State of California and a report by Mr. Douglas Lister to the annual conference of the National Society for Clean Air at Harrogate on 5th October last at which his Department was represented, copies of which have been sent to him by the hon. Member for Swindon.

It is an offence to emit smoke or fumes from any vehicle if this might cause damage to property or injury or danger to people; the police can, and do, prosecute offenders. Many of the pollutants, especially invisible ones, are, however, difficult to measure. Officers of my Department have power to prohibit the use of unfit goods vehicles and buses, and, when the opportunity arises, urge on those concerned the importance of correct driving and maintenance to reduce fumes; their efforts are having some success. We study all proposals in this field and keep in touch with developments overseas. I have recently circulated a proposal to amend the law to ensure that the excess fuel device cannot be misused to obtain additional power while driving, e.g., on hills, at the expense of clouds of black smoke.

While thanking the Minister for taking a close interest in this very important matter, may I ask him if his Answer indicates that rings are being run round the law if it is really an offence to emit poisonous fumes? As he knows, in all big cities there is a very high concentration of carbon monoxide, 3–4 benzpyrene and other highly dangerous and poisonous substances. This is becoming a growing problem. Can he assure us that he is looking at it very carefully indeed and watching the increasing concentration of these poisonous gases in our cities?

I can assure the hon. Member that I am very concerned about this problem. The difficulty is to get a technical device which can measure it. No country in the world has yet succeeded in doing that, but we are keeping in close touch with California. As soon as anyone gets a satisfactory device we shall look at it and try to get one of our own.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many prosecutions have taken place and how many have been successful?

Not without notice.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will now relax the 30 miles-per-hour speed limit for light commercial vehicles.

When this proposal was considered last year objections were raised to raising the limit for light commercial vehicles only. I am keeping the general question of vehicle speed limits under review.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that there is a considerable difference between a heavy lorry and a light commercial vehicle which might suitably be reflected in a similar difference in the speed limit?

I will. The question of speed limits for all goods vehicles, as well as for public service passenger vehicles, is under consideration.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that before any decision is taken in this matter the trade unions involved will be consulted, because they have an interest in the personnel who drive these vehicles?

Certainly. We have already been in touch with them on other matters, and we shall be in touch with them on this.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the light van is built on a car chassis and is therefore the same as a car?

Yes.

Is it not a fact that if one puts a seat in a light van, one can then drive at the speeds permitted to a motor car?

A window.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will prepare a code of traffic conduct for motorists negotiating roundabouts from different directions.

I think it would be wise for me to await the report of the subcommittee of the Departmental Committee on Road Safety which has been examining the whole problem of priorities at junctions, including roundabouts.

In considering the recommendations, will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that busy roundabouts nowadays can be very confusing and that if he could incorporate into the Highway Code or some other suitable publication some rules of precedence, it would help motorists greatly to avoid discourtesy and, indeed, danger?

I have been in touch with the Road Research Laboratory on this. The difficulty is to get agreement as to what the priority should be.

Is it not the fact that the rule in France appears to work quite easily and that, provided that my right hon. Friend makes up his mind, there should be no difficulty here?

The Committee has looked at all the systems abroad and will consider any system it sees before making any recommendations.

asked the Minister of Transport, in view of the many complaints which are being made regarding the administration and operation of the London Transport Executive, whether he will set up a special committee to study these and other relevant matters and to make recommendations as a matter of urgency.

asked the Minister of Transport what steps he has taken to relieve traffic congestion in London and cut down waiting time at omnibus stops; and if he will appoint a committee to examine and report on the omnibus services in the London area.

asked the Minister of Transport what reply he has made to the request sent to him by the London busmen for a public inquiry into the organisation of London Transport Executive.

Congestion in London is being attacked in several ways. For example, I am prepared to see annual expenditure on road improvements within the County of London rise to £10 million. The London Traffic Management Unit continues to apply traffic engineering techniques to relieve congestion. The House will soon have before it a Bill to make possible a large car park under Hyde Park. These measures should improve conditions for all traffic including buses.

As regards a special inquiry, I have received a petition organised by some London busmen asking me for a public inquiry into London bus services. I am considering this.

Does my right hon. Friend realise that the proposals in paragraph 20 of the White Paper seem to propose only that the name of the London Transport Executive shall be changed to the London Transport Board? Does he appreciate that the label on the bottle does not matter very much and that it is the contents that count? What we want is new men and new methods.

Will my right hon. Friend consider recommending to London Transport that it should try to put a new face on itself and should consider experimenting once again with the standee bus of the continental type during the rush hours to clear away these heavy queues which accumulate, particularly during the winter?

I have been in touch with the London Transport Executive and I will bring my hon. Friend's suggestion to the attention of the Executive.

Is the Minister aware that there are thousands of Londoners who would have liked the opportunity which I have this morning of telling him how tired they are of cuts in services, increases in fares, and waiting for long periods in all weathers for buses? Is he aware that the bus crews share in these complaints? Is he aware that many of these people feel that it is his duty to set up an inquiry to find out what is wrong with the administration of London Transport and how it can be put right?

To support my hon. Friend the Member for Wood Green (Mrs. Butler), may I ask the Minister whether he realises that this petition, organised by these busmen, was in fact on behalf of the travelling public and that it asked for a public inquiry? Any questions of the attitude of the busmen themselves can be developed at the inquiry. Does the Minister understand that many hon. Members on this side of the House take this inquiry very seriously indeed and that we hope that if he refuses it, he will give very adequate reasons why?

I am considering the inquiry, but I cannot add to my Answer.

asked the Minister of Transport how many persons have died in Warwickshire during the past twelve months as a result of traffic accidents; and how these figures compare with previous years.

A total of 314 persons were killed in road accidents during the 12 months November, 1959, to October, 1960; this compares with 258 in the corresponding period in 1958–59 and 264 in 1957–58.

asked the Minister of Transport how the record of accidents on Watling Street compares with other main roads in Warwickshire with a similar density of traffic.

There were 17 personal injury accidents per mile of road on the Watling Street during the first 11 months of 1960, compared with 15 per mile on the A.34, 14 per mile on the A.46 and 18 per mile on the A.452. Some of the routes lie in more heavily populated areas than others and, since adequate data on the character and density of traffic on the roads are not available, it is difficult to draw valid conclusions from comparisons of this kind.

Is it fairly well proved that Watling Street is almost the most dangerous road in Warwickshire? Cannot something be done to speed up the improvement of this road between Atherstone and Wilnecote, at Wilnecote in particular?

I do not think that my hon. Friend was listening carefully to what I said at the end of my last Answer. It is difficult to draw valid conclusions as to the danger or lack of danger of certain stretches of road from comparisons between roads. We will get on with the improvements to the road as soon as we can.

asked the Minister of Transport how much additional expenditure on account of bad weather conditions was incurred by his Department to enable the contract work for the M.1 to be completed on time; what sums were paid and to whom for this specific work: by how much this expenditure exceeded the allowance of £400,000 referred to in question 2035 of the Minutes of Evidence taken before the Public Accounts Committee in the last Session of Parliament; and if he will make a statement.

As stated in the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General on the Civil Appropriation Accounts for 1958–59, the additional expenditure to counteract the effect of the weather and to permit of winter working amounted to about £1,500,000. This sum was paid to the contractors for the motorway, who carried out the additional works. It exceeds the amount referred to by the hon. Member by about £1,100,000.

Special measures were necessary because of the difficult soil conditions which were made worse by the abnormally wet weather of 1958. To close down the works would have seriously delayed the opening of the motorway and there could be no assurance as explained in answer 2050 that the final cost would have been less.

I thank the Minister for that information, but will he be good enough to apply his mind to the Question? I want to know to whom the payment was made and the date on which it was made.

I can say that the payment was made to the contractor, but I cannot give the date without notice.

Will the Minister be good enough to say who the contractors were? That is what the Question is about.

I do not want to specify a firm if I can possibly avoid it. I would rather say that it was paid to a contractor.

That is not the point. Mr. Speaker, surely we are entitled to an answer. This is public money that has been spent. The Minister has said that over £1½ million was spent in addition to the contract price. I must press him to give an answer. To whom has the money been paid? The House is entitled to know.

It was paid to John Laing.

asked the Minister of Transport how many accidents have been caused in the last twelve months as a result of motorists being dazzled by headlights.

I regret that the information is not available for the period asked for. In 1958 the police reported that dazzling by the lights of another vehicle was a contributory factor in 1,130 accidents involving motor cars.

Has my hon. Friend's attention been drawn to the book by Captain Popkess entitled "Traffic Control and Road Accident Prevention" and in particular to this statement

"Drivers complained of being dazzled in one out of every eight accidents to service vehicles in January and February, 1946."

What action is being taken to try to solve this very serious problem of dazzle?

My attention has not been drawn to the book my hon. Friend mentions, but now that it has been I will have a look at it. The figures I have given this morning do not entirely bear out the conclusion drawn in the statement to which my hon. Friend has referred. The problem of dazzle is difficult of solution and any substantial breakthrough on the technical point seems still quite a long way away.

asked the Minister of Transport when he proposes to make the testing of ten-year-old vehicles compulsory.

asked the Minister of Transport at what date he proposes to make compulsory the testing of all motor vehicles over ten years old.

I propose to make the test compulsory on 15th February next.

Testing of some one-and-a-half million vehicles over ten years old will have to be spread over a period. The procedure will be that owners of vehicles registered before 1st January, 1937, must obtain their certificates before 15th February; those registered before 1st January, 1946, by 15th March; those registered before 1st January, 1949, by 15th April; and those registered before 15th May, 1951, by 15th May, 1961. Thereafter, every owner must be in possession of a certificate on and after the tenth anniversary of his vehicle's registration.

I should like to take this opportunity of thanking the Motor Agents' Association, the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders and the Scottish Motor Traders' Association for their full co-operation.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that many of those interested in road safety will be very pleased with that Answer, in view of the high proportion of old vehicles which have been found to be defective in the pilot schemes?

Yes. This will play its part in road safety. Whilst it is not popular in some quarters, nevertheless if it reduces accidents it is well worth while.

Is the Minister aware that between him and the industry there has been a delay of five years between the scheme being passed by the House of Commons and the date when it will be put into operation? Although everyone, including the Ministry, agrees that this is likely to save hundreds of lives a year and prevent thousands of accidents a year, no excuse has been offered by the Ministry for its long delay in putting the scheme into operation, except for two legal difficulties which arose, both of which were the responsibility of the Ministry.

It has been very difficult, but certainly there have been no discussions between myself and the industry going on for five years. I have not been in my present job five years. The real point is that we have got a move on with it quickly. The scheme is now being brought into operation. We hope that everybody will co-operate by going as early as possible to get their vehicles tested.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will introduce legislation to restrict the movement of road vehicles carrying exceptionally long and wide loads to the hours between 7 pm. and 7 a.m.

The police already have power to control the time of movement of vehicles carrying wide loads, and we have circulated proposals which would give them the same control over long loads. I think that we should leave this to their discretion in the light of local circumstances.

Is it not the fact that despite the efforts of the police, these abnormal loads—abnormal lengths and abnormal widths—are cluttering up the roads at peak traffic hours? Is it not completely crazy that this practice should be allowed to continue?

With respect, I think that the hon. Gentleman is not quite right in saying that these loads clutter up the roads at peak traffic hours. Wherever humanly possible, the routeing and timing of these loads are adjusted to ensure that that does not happen. However, as I say, we are discussing the whole problem with the interested authorities, and I think that my right hon. Friend will be in a position to make a statement very soon.

If the hon. Gentleman doubts my statement on this subject, would he very much mind talking to the police in Lancashire and Cheshire and in that way finding out what is going on? In the North-West, this is a daily occurrence.

I would hesitate to answer for the police in Lancashire and the North-West. I can only say that my information is that, wherever possible, movement of these loads at peak traffic hours is avoided, in the interests not only of the traffic but of the police themselves.

asked the Minister of Transport whether road accidents in which alcohol is a contributing factor are on the increase.

So far as can be judged from the official statistics, the number of accidents in which an intoxicated driver or rider is involved is increasing at a rather greater rate than the total for all road accidents.

In view of the Minister's very serious Answer, and the appalling figures given in the newspapers this morning of those killed in October of this year, will he take strong steps to try to do something to improve this terrible position?

As the House knows, the Government are to bring in a Road Safety Bill which, I hope, will help. Prior to that, I can only say that the time when drinking really does cause accidents is Christmas time. It is these Christmas party arrangements that people have. Most of these accidents take place between 2 p.m. on Christmas Eve and 2 a.m. on Christmas morning. I have tried to make as many appeals as possible, advising people who drink not to drive, and I should like now to reinforce that advice.

I should like to give every support to the Minister in that direction, but could I emphasise more than he has done the danger of the drunken pedestrian—a danger that is at least as great as that of the drunken motorist?

I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for giving me this opportunity also to emphasise that. When the Road Research Laboratory went into the figures for last Christmas, it was found that 56 per cent. of people involved in fatal accidents had been drinking, and that a large percentage were pedestrians. I think that if people go to these Christmas parties and find that they have had a little too much to drink they should ask someone—and they should make the selection—to help them home and look after them. If people have been drinking, they should get their wives or someone to drive them home, rather than drive themselves.

asked the Minister of Transport what progress has been made in the study given by his Department to the charging of tolls on new motorways; when the study began; and when it is expected to be completed.

The study into the question of tolls on future motorways began in October. I hope that it will be completed fairly early in the New Year.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that many people think it a very bad thing to start bringing tolls on to our roads? Should it not be our effort to get rid of tolls altogether, because they are costly to collect and traffic is held up in the process of collecting them? Why should we have to do this when the motorists pay so much money for running on the roads?

The hon. Member asks why we have to do this, but nothing has been decided yet. We are merely going into the question.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will consider upgrading the B.3220 Morehard Row-Torrington Road, in order to relieve traffic congestion on the A.30 road between Exeter and Okehampton.

We considered the classification of this road very recently, but a traffic census held in August did not justify a change in status. We are asking the Exeter Corporation to consider whether any improvement of the direction signing of the Torrington route is possible.

Would my hon. Friend consider the fact that when people go into a strange district they are apt to follow the red road, the A road? If this road were upgraded I believe that it would syphon off a great deal of traffic, both heavy and light, into the North Cornwall and Devon areas.

Yes. I was grateful to my hon. Friend for coming to see me the other day and explaining this matter in some detail. We are looking into it to see what can be done.

asked the Minister of Transport the basis of his estimate that it will take about twenty years to repay the money advanced towards the cost of the Dartford-Purfleet Tunnel and to abolish tolls.

In their evidence before the House on 3rd April, 1957, during the passage of the Dartford Tunnel Act, 1957, the promoters, the Essex and Kent County Councils, estimated that an annual toll revenue of £1 million could be raised and that this would enable the advances made towards the cost of the tunnel to be amortised in twenty years.

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether the standard of tolls has yet been decided and, if not, how soon this is to be expected?

The standard of tolls has not yet been decided and the House will know as soon as it has, because I think it will need legislation. The main point about tolls is to try to obtain some simplified rate of tolls in order to help in their automatic and semi-automatic collection.

asked the Minister of Transport if, in view of the increasing volume of motor traffic between the United Kingdom and the countries of Western Europe and the fact that the rule of the road varies, he will take steps to see that the possibility of an eventual change of the rule from left to right in this country is taken into account when planning traffic legislation and major road constructions, including, in particular, flyovers and cloverleafs, so as to reduce as far as possible both the cost and the difficulty of such change.

I think it is more important to concentrate on making our roads as safe as possible for traffic under the existing rule of the road. If, however, it were ever decided to change the rule from left to right neither our present traffic legislation nor the major road construction now being undertaken should give rise to any serious difficulty. Flyovers and cloverleafs are already designed symmetrically so far as site conditions permit.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for that Answer, may I ask whether there are not particular difficulties connected with the conversion from right to left or left to right of clover-leafs? Is that taken into consideration when these very expensive constructions are being planned?

Yes. The constructions which are now being planned are quite symmetrical, and if it were decided to change the rule of the road, which would require an Act of Parliament, the new construction would be quite in keeping with that decision.

asked the Minister of Transport when he hopes to begin work to eliminate the bends on A.34 just south of Bullington Cross, Hampshire.

We hope to eliminate the bends as part of the roundabout scheme, which will be started as soon as the engineering details are finalised and land acquired.

While thanking the Minister for that Answer, may I ask whether he can say exactly how much progress has been made in the preparation of these plans and whether at the moment it is a case of his Ministry waiting for the county council to reply or the county council waiting for his Ministry?

I have checked this morning on the current position. It is that the land plans have been received by our divisional road engineer but we are still awaiting the engineering details from the county surveyor.

asked the Minister of Transport what plans he has for providing dual carriageways on A.30 between the top of Kempshott Hill and the junction with A.33.

We intend eventually to provide dual carriageways on A.30 between the end of the Basingstoke Motorway, which will join A.30 near the top of Kempshott Hill, and its junction with A.33 at Popham Corner.

We hope soon to authorise work to start on the first section between Blind Man's Oak and Ganderdown.

While thanking my hon Friend for that more hopeful reply, may I ask him how much extra, percentage-wise, it would have cost if this dual carriageway project had been carried out at the same time as the recent realignment of the road over the stretch mentioned? Is it not very often penny wise and pound foolish to have all the land acquired, and all the road implements on the site and then to remove them only to get them back at a later date?

I think I would prefer to see that question on the Paper.

asked the Minister of Transport what steps he is taking to remove major hindrances to the flow of traffic on important derestricted trunk roads.

Within the funds at our disposal, we are doing everything possible to improve the flaw of traffic on trunk roads by removing the worst hindrances such as sharp bends, level intersections and level railway crossings. We are also considering the possibility of extending the clearways system.

To carry out the substance of his reply, would my hon. Friend arrange for the linked traffic lights on the A.4 from Slough to the Slough Trading Estate to be turned off between the hours of 7 p.m. and 7 a.m.? This is a derestricted road. Does the Minister realise that during these hours there is next to no traffic crossing the A.4 and that these traffic lights are, more often than not, being "shot" by people who pay no regard to them at all.

I will look into that. I should say that if any proposal of that kind were put forward we should consult the local highway authority before doing anything.

May I ask whether, in view of the very valuable work which is being done in Slough as a pioneer safety town in this country, he will discuss the matter with the Slough Safety Council before reaching a decision?

I think that is implicit in the Answer I have just given to my hon. Friend.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will have signs indicating their lengths erected at each end of all sections of dual carriageways as is done on A.1 in Yorkshire.

The signs on A.1 in Yorkshire are temporary ones to help drivers to recognise which sections are completed whilst reconstruction work is taking place over a long strength of the road. We do not think such notices are necessary elsewhere, since adequate warning of change is normally given by the customary "Dual carriageway" and "Two way Traffic" signs.

Would not my hon. Friend agree that it is very helpful when overtaking at night to know the length of a stretch of dual carriageway? Is he aware that two particularly short stretches on the A.5, not long after one gets on to it after leaving the M.1, are very deceptive? One might think that there is quite a long stretch in which to overtake, but it is not at all safe.

I will bear that in mind. I have no evidence at the moment to show that the customary warning signs which we use do not provide an answer to the problem.

asked the Minister of Transport when he expects the projected traffic lights at the junction of Gower Street and Hampstead Road, London, will be working.

The Tottenham Court Road and Gower Street one-way scheme, which my right hon. Friend announced last week, will make these signals unnecessary.

Plans for their installation have therefore been dropped.

asked the Minister of Transport to what extent under his regulations motorists are prevented from buying British petrol from stations on the M.1.

There are no regulations preventing motorists from buying British petrol at the two service areas on the M.1. Petrol marketed by a British oil group is now on sale at both.

Is the Minister aware that it was about a year before Shell or B.P. sold any petrol at all there, and that it was necessary to buy American petrol because there was no other available? Was that part of the campaign to help the dollar or was it merely due to incompetence on the part of Shell and B.P.?

I will not go so far as to allege that. The Shell people and the service stations had difficulties over negotiations. Who was to blame I do not know, but that has now been solved, because British petrol is now on sale.

asked the Minister of Transport how many concrete lamp-posts have been knocked down in road accidents on the Great Cambridge Road between the North Circular Roundabout and the Bullsmoor Lane traffic signals during the last eighteen months.

Twenty-one were knocked down or damaged in that period.

This is a five-mile stretch of road. Does not the hon. Gentleman think that there is something wrong with the siting of the lamp-posts when in that short period this number was knocked down? Does he not think that they should be put well clear of the pavement on the outside and then wired across and the lights hung from the top, in order to avoid any obstructions in the roadway? That should be general policy in new road building.

I have no information at the moment as to how these various pieces of damage were caused, but I will certainly look into the point, because this is a trunk road and the Minister has general responsibility for them. In this case, similar to the case raised a little earlier, we would have to consult with the local highway authority to make any changes which were felt to be necessary.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will give details of the disadvantages of using the expanded metal anti-dazzle fence on M.1.

The main disadvantage is that the experimental screen encourages drivers not to dip their headlights, so increasing the danger and discomfort from dazzle in the driving mirror from the headlights of following vehicles. The screen itself only gives protection against glare from approaching headlights. In certain conditions it may help to form snowdrifts. It also detracts from the appearance of the motorway.

Does not my hon. Friend agree that glare from the headlights of a car following one is a much less serious matter than glare from the headlights of a car coming towards one? Cannot the former be largely mitigated by the use of a rear-view mirror, which prevents that type of glare?

That is a problem of design, which strictly speaking is not for my right hon. Friend. However, I think I should tell my hon. Friend that we are still monitoring this experiment. The Road Research Laboratory is engaged in carrying this work out for us, and we have by no means finally made up our minds about it. My hon. Friend asked for some of the disadvantages, and I have tried to state these.

Is my hon. Friend aware that many motorists in fact like this dazzle screen and that there have been many expressions of approval of it?

I know that there are a number of conflicting viewpoints about it.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that I use this road very often and always look forward to this section enormously? I find it of tremendous advantage.

I am glad to hear it.

Is my hon. Friend aware, as the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) said, that this is the only safe section of the road and that those of us who use it almost weekly, as some of us do, look forward to it? If the Minister does not like the design of the metal screen, would it not be possible to plant a hedge, which would serve exactly the same purpose and tone in with the surroundings?

This is being considered as well. The Road Research Laboratory is monitoring an experiment in connection with this problem. The Laboratory will in due course let us have its views, and we shall be able to make up our minds.

asked the Minister of Transport when work will be started on the new South Wales Radial Road in so far as the borough of Heston and Isleworth will be affected; and when he intends to make money available to enable the local authority to provide houses for the owners, occupiers and tenants of houses in Winchester Avenue, Heston, which will have to be pulled down to make way for the new road.

Construction of this section of the South Wales Motorway will be phased so as to ensure its completion simultaneously with that of the Great West Road viaduct. Work should start on the viaduct next spring, and on the remainder of the road about the end of 1961. I regret that I cannot yet give a precise date.

My hon. Friend has already been told in a letter that negotiations about rehousing have now been started.

Does my hon. Friend, or his right hon. Friend, regard himself as having any responsibility for ensuring that the alternative houses to which the present owners and occupiers in Winchester Avenue will have to move will be of approximately the same value as those in which they are now living, in order that they may not be put to very great extra expense?

It is a difficult problem—and a little difficult to deal with by way of Question and Answer in the House. My right hon. Friend does not possess statutory powers to rehouse people affected by road schemes. In fact, we usually manage to arrive at some accommodation with the local authorities, or by some other means but, without proper notice, I should not like to give a firm answer to the point about the houses in Winchester Avenue. Perhaps my hon. Friend will have a word with me about it.

asked the Minister of Transport how many new electric rail services under the capital development programme are to be opened in the near future.

The British Transport Commission plans to complete three electrification schemes in 1961. These are the electrification of the London, Tilbury and Southend line, and extensions to the electrification schemes already in operation on the Kent Coast and Glasgow suburban lines.

Will my right hon. Friend not agree, from his own unfortunate experience in Manchester, that every time British Railways open a new rail service they celebrate the occasion by making all the trains later than ever? For the convenience of the public, therefore, would he consider opening these new services very early on Sunday morning?

Certainly. Especially as I know my hon. Friend is always at church at this time.

When will the Minister be able to give us some information about the completion of the London to Crewe electrification?

A few days ago I received the revised estimates from the British Transport Commission. I will consider them, and I hope to make a fairly early announcement.

In view of the difficulties which have occurred in electrification recently, will the Minister assure the House that in the new plan of the railways there will be no weakening of the central technical control of the railway system so that the railway engineers are not put in a still worse competitive position vis-à-vis their suppliers?

That can be raised in the debate but I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I have that in mind because technically we want to try to put these matters right. It is not a matter for rejoicing but we want to put it right as quickly as we can both in the interests of the travelling public and in the interests of the manufacturers.

asked the Minister of Transport what proposals he has received regarding changes in the capital allocation for the electrification of the railways.

I am not sure what changes the hon. Member has in mind. It was necessary to establish the British Transport Commission's provisional investment allocation for 1961 before a detailed programme for that year was available. This allocation took account, however, of known commitments, including electrification, and made provision for certain expenditure on other schemes. These latter, which have now been specified in a detailed programme for 1961, will be considered on their merits under the existing procedures and in the light of the four-year programme which the Commission has now submitted to me.

Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is essential for his proper and full consideration of any such proposals respecting electrification, that he should at once decide to widen the inquiry that he announced two days ago concerning the failure at Glasgow to include, at least, the similar experience on the Eastern Region where, after eighteen days of operation, an entirely new system broke down and it was necessary for British Railways to announce that all the engines supplied by the English Electric Company were to be returned to the makers for rectification of a serious fault.

The problem is not similar to the one in Glasgow. They have not found out the reason for the failure in Glasgow, whereas in the Eastern Region they think they have.

asked the Minister of Transport what capital expenditure he has authorised for further electrification of the railways.

No specific authorisation of capital expenditure has been made for railway electrification schemes other than those already in hand. Other electrification schemes included in the Commission's 1961 programme are at present under consideration. I cannot yet say what investment may be authorised for these schemes which will have to be studied in the context of the Commission's proposed four-year programme which has just been submitted to me.

Before the Minister authorises the expenditure of any further money on electrification, will he ensure that there is no further debacle such as there has been on the North London line in the last four weeks since it was opened? The hon. Member for Enfield, East has twice had to walk home because of breakdowns. The general public is sick of it. The Minister should examine this matter more fully. Although there were no explosions on the North London line, which is what happened in Glasgow, I want the Minister to be aware that there have been more breakdowns on the North London line than there were on the Glasgow line.

I share the general desire to get the electrification right. I hope that the technical failure recently experienced will be only temporary, but it was one of the reasons for the pause in the modernisation programme and the reassessment of it.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that many Members of Parliament in North-East London have been receiving vast numbers of angry representations from their constituents about the chaos that has developed? We must all be profoundly concerned, not only about the inadequacy of the electrification which has taken place, but about the constant delays in making any definite decision on the Victoria Line, all of which very adversely affect our constituents. We hope that something definite and positive will be done about these matters in the very near future.

I will take note of what my hon. Friend has said.

asked the Minister of Transport the latest estimates of the cost of the Victoria Line tube.

The latest estimate is £55 million.

Does not the Minister think that the very serious complaints that hen. Members in the London area are getting about London Transport would be much relieved if the Government made up their mind to carry out the urgent and necessary scheme which Committee after Committee have reported would be a major contribution to relieving congestion on London's streets?

That may be so, but this scheme does present financial and other problems which can be assessed only in the light of the Government's general consideration of the British Transport Commission and its undertakings.

There should be something more positive on this from the Minister. For years it has been delayed when it has been shown to be essential to public needs to get a decision.

I cannot say, because we are considering this in the light of the British Transport Commission's modernisation scheme. I thought that the publication of the White Paper yesterday would have gone some way to convincing hon. Members that the Government are treating the problem seriously.

asked the Minister of Transport, in view of the large capital expenditure involved, whether he will give a general direction to the British Transport Commission that designs for new stations and other buildings required by them should be submitted to his Department before final approval.

asked the Minister of Transport what capital expenditure he has authorised for the building of new railway stations; and whether he will give a general direction to the British Transport Commission that plans for new stations should be submitted for his approval.

Since February, 1960, all proposals by the British Transport Commission for investment in projects costing more than £250,000 have been submitted to me for consideration. Since that date I have agreed to work proceeding on the reconstruction of six major railway stations, on four of which work was already well advanced. The total expenditure involved is about £5¼ million. The design of buildings is, of course, a matter for the Commission, but the cost of particular designs may well be a subject for discussion. I do not think a general direction is either necessary or appropriate.

Will not my hon. Friend agree that the new railway station which has just been completed at Macclesfield is a public disgrace and that even the loyal railway staff are ashamed of it? Could he possibly assure the House that no station like this will be built in future?

I have not had the advantage of seeing the station, as my hon. Friend has, but I have no doubt that he is as usual very accurate in his information. I will pass his advice to the British Transport Commission, because they are responsible for the detailed design, and not me.

asked the Minister of Transport at what time and on what day the final version of the Government White Paper on the future of the British Transport Commission reached Her Majesty's Stationery Office for printing.

At 6 p.m. on Wednesday, 14th December.

But in view of the fact that there was some time to spare, could not the right hon. Gentleman have gone further, instead of leaving the railway managements and public in suspense and ignorance about many of the major decisions that should have been taken a very long time ago? We still do not know what is to happen to the modernisation programme. The way in which this document was produced was highly unsatisfactory. Why did not the Minister make a statement in the House before the White Paper was issued? Why could not the House have had an opportunity to discuss the White Paper before the Recess? Why, above all, have we had no answer to the pressing problem of the future of the modernisation programme?

The Hon. Gentleman's Question asked when the final version reached the Stationery Office, and I have told him. It then took three working days to print the final draft, which is not, I think, unreasonable, and it was then published. The point we had in mind was to give the general public, the Opposition and everyone a chance to study the document before having a debate. It is no use having too short an interval between White Paper and debate with something of this magnitude.

May I ask whether the Minister will change his mind on the question of now publishing the Stedeford Report, which led to this conclusion, bearing in mind that at might have said something nice about the British Transport Commission and other associated nationalised bodies? We should like to know if that was the case.

No, I am afraid that the Government will not change their mind in that respect. When the Stede-ford Group was set up, it was made quite clear from the outset that its inquiries would be confidential, because it was felt that more evidence could be got from interested people if their evidence was not published—

Who were they?

The T.U.C. for instance, and others.

It would be a breach of confidence to publish it now.

asked the Minister of Transport when he proposes to introduce legislation to carry out the administrative and financial proposals arising from Her Majesty's Government's consideration of the Stedeford Report.

I would refer the right hon. Gentleman to paragraph 61 of the White Paper "Reorganisation of the Nationalised Transport Undertakings" which I presented to Parliament yesterday.

May we assume that the financial provisions contained in the White Paper will be dealt with in the Finance Bill this Session? Is it not a fact that If the proposals are not put into operation this Session, it will mean a two-year delay before the structural change comes into operation? Does not the Minister realise that frequent change in the structure of the transport industry is, in itself, exceedingly harmful, but to have such fundamental reorganisation as that set out in the White Paper—which is both imprecise and highly controversial—kept in suspense for two years is bound to create confusion and uncertainty among those running the industry, and does create damage?

Well, I was told that there was uncertainty before the White Paper was produced, and that there would be uncertainty and confusion until it was produced. Now I am told there is uncertainty and confusion because it has been published. It is all most confusing. The real point is that the White Paper has been produced. It sets out some quite radical changes, I agree, and legislation will be required for a lot of them—those relating to statutory restrictions and so on—but quite a bit of the reorganisation can be carried out by the Commission under its present statutory duties. I must tell the right hon. Gentleman that Questions about the Finance Bill are more properly addressed to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

But does not the Minister really know whether the major part of the proposals of this White Paper is to be carried out this year—or is that, too, to be left for two years? Are not the financial provisions to be in the Finance Bill? Further, can the right hon. Gentleman answer the second part of my Question: does he not really think—is it not obvious—that to keep the organisational change in suspense for two years before it can be put into operation—which will happen—is bound to cause a great deal of damage to the transport industry?

Those items that require alteration in the law have to go through the usual processes that Parliament normally adopts. Very complicated, complex and comprehensive legislation will be wanted in some cases, but quite a good deal of the reorganisation can be carried out by the British Transport Commission under its statutory duties. I have tried to explain to the right hon. Gentleman that there may not be delay in a lot of the measures we can introduce.

Surely, the Minister can tell us whether the financial reorganisation requires legislation and, if it does, how and when we shall get it?

I think that that point is better addressed to my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who will be in charge of those provisions.