asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what arrangements have been made for a consortium of publishers to assist him in the publishing and distribution arrangements in connection with his scheme of cheap books for overseas.

An export consortium has been formed by a number of publishers with special interest or experience in exporting books. It has begun to operate and is already giving valuable advice, particularly about marketing arrangements, in connection with the low-price book scheme. I am very grateful to the members of this consortium for their help.

Would the right hon. Gentleman be kind enough to publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT the names of the members of this consortium, and could he reassure the House that the members are not of such high level in the publishing world individually that they will find it difficult to hold frequent enough meetings to get the action now needed?

Any question of the publication of names is a matter for the consortium itself. I should prefer not to comment on the level of its members, but it is representative of the publishers engaged in export business.

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what progress is being made with Her Majesty's Government's scheme for cheap books for overseas, apart from the arrangements for cheap editions of university text books; how many titles have been selected; and how many books it is expected to distribute during the coming year.

To date, the Advisory Committee has recommended 30 titles for production in low-priced editions, and negotiations are proceeding with the publishers. This is in addition to the 23 textbooks now in course of printing and despatch. It is rather too early to forecast the number of books to be produced this year, which must depend on the course of the negotiations with the publishers.

But does not the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster think it is a little strange that he should now cautiously say that it is too early to forecast the number of books being produced when last year he forecast that he would have 2 million copies produced by the end of the year? Does not his Answer, and his Answer to the previous Question, give some indication of the kind of handicaps that a country like Britain appears to face in trying to compete with the Communist world in providing cheap books?

The hon. Member will recall that it was decided to put the emphasis in the first place on textbooks—I announced that to this House—and that does affect the numbers concerned. In general, I should like to tell the hon. Gentleman that after a slow start, when many problems had to be resolved, the scheme is now well under way, and we should from now on see a steep increase in the number of books.

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell the House whether arrangements are being made with certain countries that ban the entry of Britsh books? Some very good and enlightened books are banned by the British Commonwealth countries. What is the good of trying to export books to those countries if they are to be banned when they get there?

There is an enormous opening for British books, even allowing for the few countries that ban their importation.

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell the House when the first book will be sold?

The first books are now in transit to India, so it will be very soon.

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what are the number of hours of broadcasting by the British Broadcasting Corporation overseas services to each of the countries in the Communist bloc; and what proportion of each of these broadcasts is affected and nullified by jamming.

With permission, I will circulate the figures in the OFFICIAL REPORT. There is good evidence that, in spite of jamming, the B.B.C.'s broadcasts can be heard in many parts of the countries to which they are directed.

What attention are the Government giving to the possibility of overcoming this jamming? Is there any priority given to technical research to see what can be done, because, if that were the case, it might be of much more use in taking the truth behind the Iron Curtain than dozens of armoured divisions?

We need notice of the Question about technical methods and research, but there is good evidence that, despite jamming, there is success in getting through the barrier.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that all ordinary broadcasts in English sent out by the B.B.C. are not jammed at all but are heard in most places all over Eastern Europe, while the only broadcasts subject to jamming are the specifically propaganda ones put out for specific propaganda purposes?

The hon. Member is quite right; the teaching of English programmes are not jammed. Perhaps I may add that in the case of Russia about one-quarter of the broadcasts are jammed. It is in general the news broadcasts and the news commentary, but the hon. Member will recall that the B.B.C., with it obligations of impartiality, is responsible for those broadcasts, and the last thing we would wish would be Government interference with or control of those broadcasts.

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, in co-ordinating Government information services, what special steps he is taking to ensure that the public is kept fully informed about the Government's latest proposals in the fields of health and housing.

None, Sir.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that we ought to take special steps? Is he not aware that many citizens today are puzzled and annoyed because they thought the policy of the Government was to stabilise living costs and to reduce taxes, whereas the Housing Minister is mainly concerned in raising rents and the Health Minister is mainly concerned with charging taxes? Does the right hon. Gentleman not think the public ought to be informed of the reasons for this contradiction?

My right hon. Friends have made perfectly plain in public statements both the wisdom and practicability of their proposals, and no special steps are needed from me.

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster to what extent the Government's information services at home and abroad, in giving publicity to British institutions, have drawn attention to the achievements of the National Health Service.

To a considerable extent.

While ignoring the Minister's special personal role as one who bitterly opposed the inception of the Health Service—[HON. MEMBERS: "He was not then in the House."]—he did so outside—may I ask if in giving publicity to the matter he tells the people, especially American people, that a Health Service functions best according to the principle of "To each according to his need" when paid for out of community funds and when it is not confused with a poll tax on health needs?

On the personal point, I say no more than that as the representative spokesman for a great profession I did my duty in those days. On the second point, which I take to be a serious point, there is a wealth of information material by film, radio, reference material and the dike, which goes all over the world, on the subject of the Health Service, reinforced no doubt by statements by the Minister of Health about the expansion of that Service.

It is a pity I could not have got in, for I would have knocked him over the fence.

Order. There is quite enough trouble getting Questions in without having a running commentary.

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what has been the cost to public funds in recent years of subsidising the British Broadcasting Corporation's overseas television transcription service.

This service is not subsidised, but funds have been made available for the overseas departments to acquire television material, including B.B.C. material, for distribution overseas.

How much is being spent in this way?

The amount of money available for the current year was about £17,000, but the position is that in fact that money has been adequate for the material available for the purpose.

May I ask the Minister further about this? Why is there this extraordinary contrast between the £¼ million which is very effectively spent in subsidising sound transcription services of the B.B.C. and the very small—indeed, it appears negligible—sum to help the equally important television transcription service?

It is for this reason. The B.B.C. disposes by agreement of 500 programmes a year to overseas broadcasting bodies, the principle of the arrangement being that it disposes of that material on an economic basis. Where that is not possible, the plan is that the departments obtain the material which they consider appropriate from the B.B.C. or other broadcasting bodies and distribute it to the network of information officers in fifty-three countries.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance why Mr. J. R. Thompson, of 43, George Street, Whitehaven, is not entitled to draw his pension from 15th December, 1960, to 17th December, 1960, having ceased to draw his unemployment benefit on 14th December, 1960, and having been informed that pension was not payable until 19th December, 1960.

I am making inquiries into this case and will write to the hon. Member about it shortly.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what steps he is taking to protect insured persons on sickness benefit from having to submit to a means test before being enabled to recover National Health Service prescription charges incurred by them during their period on sickness benefit.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether persons on sickness benefit require to make application to the National Assistance Board and submit to a means test before obtaining any refund of National Health Service prescription charges which they may have been obliged to pay.

A person whose sickness benefit is supplemented by National Assistance can obtain a refund at the post office without further formality, on production of the chemist's receipt and his supplementary order book. Others who want help can apply to the National Assistance Board under the arrangements fully described by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health on 8th February.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in country areas, particularly in Scotland where vast distances have to be covered, this means considerable inconvenience to men on sickness benefit? Will he look into the matter again and see if this is necessary in country areas where men often have to travel for miles to the National Assistance Board or miles to the dispensing chemist's shop, and this may be a very expensive item?

Of course, the Board will follow up any case in which difficulty arises, but, as the hon. Member knows, this is not a new procedure. It has been followed for a good many years in respect of existing prescription charges, and I have no reason to believe that it will cause any general difficulty.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what was the number and amount of National Health Service prescription charges refunded by the National Assistance Board in Ayrshire to persons not in receipt of National Assistance supple. mentation during each of the past four years.

In general, such information can be given for particular localities only for the past two years, as it is derived in part from accounting records which have been destroyed for earlier periods. It is estimated that during (959 and 1960, in an area approximating to Ayrshire, the National Assistance Board refunded, in respect of persons not already receiving a regular weekly National Assistance grant, total amounts of, respectively, £70 representing 1,400 prescription items and £60 representing 1,200.

Is the right hon. Lady aware that the County of Ayr is comprised of many small villages and that many people in them strongly object to having to ask for this refund because that fact soon becomes everybody's business? Could she try to inculcate in her right hon. Friend some more humane method whereby poor people receiving National Assistance might be able to recoup the prescription charge without the matter being publicised as it is at present?

I think the hon. Member does scant justice to the great care and sympathy shown by the National Assistance Board. Indeed, in the supplementary question he referred—

That is not the point I was making.

—to those receiving National Assistance, whereas his main Question refers to those not normally in receipt of National Assistance.

May I ask—

No. I was too indulgent to the hon. Member in allowing his other question. I did not call him again.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what proportion of applications to the National Assistance Board for refund of National Health Service prescription charges over each of the past three years was granted; and what proportion was refused.

It is not possible to answer this Question in precisely the form in which it is asked, but I can state that in 1958 the total amount refunded by the National Assistance Board was £972,000 representing over 19 million prescription items; in 1959, £1,003,000 representing over 20 million; and, in 1960, £1,066,000 also representing over 20 million. The numbers of applications rejected in these years were, respectively, about 3,000, 2,000 and 1,500.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance at what level of weekly personal income a woman living alone may expect the National Assistance Board to refund a National Health Service prescription charge she has paid.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance at what level of weekly personal income a married man without children may expect the National Assistance Board to refund a National Health Service prescription charge paid by him in respect either of himself or of his wife.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what is the minimum weekly income for a man, wife and two children that will qualify for refund by the National Assistance Board of National Health Service prescription charges paid by that family.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what is the minimum weekly income for a man, wife and four children that will qualify for refund by the National Assistance Board of any National Health Service prescription charges paid by that family.

I am afraid it is not possible to give the figures asked for in these Questions, since a number of factors, such as rent, rates, age of children and special needs, which under the National Assistance (Determination of Need) Regulations the Board is required to take into account, are not stated and may vary from case to case.

Is the Minister aware that his Answer is completely unsatisfactory? Will he therefore reconsider the position so that people may know what their entitlement is for reclaiming refund of these prescription charges?

I take it from the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question that he does not fully appreciate how National Assistance works and is administered, and that to relieve need and prevent hardship it is, for example, necessary to take into account the extent of the rent and rates paid, the special, seeds of the person concerned, and a number of other factors. Therefore, it simply is not possible, unless those factors can also be predicated, to answer this kind of question.

Does the Minister realise the difficulties which will be imposed on many people at the marginal point between National Assistance and no National Assistance, and the good deal of unnecessary traipsing round the National Assistance Board and correspondence and visits by National Assistance Board officers that will be necessary to determine these cases? Can he not get some simplified method of a plain declaration—some simple information as to the qualifying standards—and allow that to stand as the basis for refund of contributions?

The information, of course, is available in National Assistance Board leaflets which set out very clearly what are the bases on which there is a qualification for National Assistance generally under the Determination of Need Regulations. One can only simplify it in the way suggested in the Question at the price of inflicting hardship and injustice on, for example, people whose rents are above the average.

Surely the Minister appreciates that if the Government are to avoid hardship in these cases of people who are not in receipt of National Assistance they need somehow or other to get across to them some sort of sample information such as we have asked for in the Question; otherwise people will adopt the attitude of: "Why should we bother? We do not know whether it is worth our while." Whether the Government like it or not—and obviously they do not like it from their statements—hardship will be caused.

I do not reject the idea of sample information. Indeed, the hon. Gentleman will recall that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health gave some the other night. The trouble is that these Questions as framed would not elicit such information.

Would it not be possible where National Assistance is drawn for recipients to be given a leaflet with their money at the Post Office?

As my hon. and gallant Friend will appreciate, the problem to which these Questions relate is in the case of people not drawing regular Assistance. I think that there is no reason to believe that any difficulty at all arises in the class of case to which he refers.

Is it not the case that what the Minister is saying is that no one will be able to obtain these rebates unless he or she first goes to the National Assistance Board? There is no other way in which it can be done. What we are asking is that there be some sense of the humiliation many people feel will be inflicted on them by this move. We are asking whether they be given advice as to what their position is without their first going to the National Assistance Board.

There is, as the hon. Gentleman knows, no need in the literal sense to go to the National Assistance Board. It is perfectly possible to get in touch with the Board, as many people will in this case, through the post. The hon. Gentleman should also, I think, appreciate that this is a system which has been operating for quite a number of years in respect of the existing prescription charges.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will state the conditions which have to be satisfied to enable a person not currently in receipt of National Assistance to claim a refund of prescription and other charges.

Apart from war pensioners who, whatever their resources, can obtain a refund in respect of medicines, etc. prescribed for their accepted war disabilities, a person to be eligible for refund of prescription charges has to satisfy the Board that after paying the charge or any part of it he would be left with insufficient resources to maintain himself and his dependants on the standards laid down by the National Assistance Regulations.

Remembering the great importance of this subject, and in view of what has been said to the House, will my right hon. Friend give serious consideration to the method of publicising these conditions, because I am certain that there are hundreds of thousands of people who are unaware that they can get these refunds?

I am at the moment considering with the National Assistance Board how best to make sure that there is complete understanding of where entitlement arises.

Is it not perfectly clear from the Minister's reply that to get a refund applicants will have to reveal the most personal details about their income and expenditure, and that to get back the 2s., or whatever they spend, they will have to submit to the full process of the means test?

The hon. Gentleman knows very well that the National Assistance Board's handling of these matters, based on a good many years' experience, is calculated to cause the least embarrassment and difficulty.

Is it not clear from the Answer to this and previous Questions that there is a great deal of confusion and no little anxiety about the way this will operate? Would it not be much easier, and indeed much fairer, if all those below a certain level of income were exempt from paying prescription charges? No doubt that could be done by the P.A.Y.E. code.

That question goes far beyond my responsibility in replying for the National Assistance Board, and is, I think, a matter for my right hon. Friend.

Could not the Minister tell us whether it will not cost more than 2s. to make the means test on these applicants? Is it not therefore a very cumbrous system?

What is important is that hardship should be prevented.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many applications to the National Assistance Board in Glasgow over each of the past three years for refund of National Health Service prescription charges were refused.

In an area approximating to the City of Glasgow, 64, 37 and 28, respectively.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what is the customary number of weeks for which an insured person is expected to be on sickness benefit before being considered by the National Assistance Board as qualifying for refund of National Health Service prescription charges.

There is no such customary period.

Is the Minister aware that a person on unemployment benefit has to be unemployed for three or four weeks before he has any chance of getting National Assistance? Is the same idea—whether or not by regulation—in operation, or might it be in operation, in respect of the prescription charges?

While not accepting the statement of the position made by the hon. Gentleman in respect of unemployment benefit, it is the fact that there is no such restriction of any kind in respect of prescription charge refunds. Indeed, as the hon. Gentleman may be aware, under the provisions of the National Health Service Acts, 1951 and 1952, these refunds can be made even to people in full work, who are otherwise statutorily debarred from National Assistance.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many applications to the National Assistance Board in Lanarkshire over each of the past three years for refund of National Health Service prescription charges were refused.

In an area approximating Lanarkshire, 22, 23, and 13, respectively.

Does this not indicate how many people other than those on National Assistance dare apply for the refund of those prescription charges? This is clear evidence of the feeling of humiliation many people have when they make application. The evidence here is that people not on National Assistance are almost not applying at all.

On the contrary, amongst those who applied not being on National Assistance there were in the last two years refunds in respect of about 3,200 and 1,400 prescription items.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will publish a White Paper showing the assessment scales and disregards operated by the National Assistance Board in deciding upon applications for refund of National Health Service prescription charges made by persons not currently on National Assistance supplementation.

No, Sir. The scales and disregards are set out in the National Assistance (Determination of Need) Regulations and the Disregard of Assets Order, 1959, and in the leaflets published by the Board.

Does not the Minister realise that he has named three separate items, one of which was in the plural, namely, leaflets? Would it not be a good idea to simplify the matter—it has not been simplified by his answers, or lack of them, this afternoon—by publishing one document dealing with the whole procedure and all the disregards?

As I said in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Cooper), I am considering with the Board whether any improvement in publicity arrangements is possible. From the point of view of making the provisions clearly known to people eligible for the refund, a White Paper is almost the worst expedient.

While the Minister is considering the question of publicity, will he consider the position of those who cannot pay for the prescription at all? A prescription may be given to a person upon the very day before he draws his pension. Under what circumstances does the Assistance Board pay for prescriptions before they are purchased?

There are arrangements for doing that in cases of need. However, before answering fully on the precise nature of the arrangements, I should be grateful if the hon. Lady will table a Question.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many applications to the National Assistance Board in Aberdeen over each of the past three years for refund of National Health Service prescription charges were refused.

In an area approximating to the City of Aberdeen, eight, five and three, respectively.

Will the right hon. Lady state what the reasons were in each case and what alternative provision was made for the unfortunate people to whom refund was refused?

I cannot tell the hon. and learned Gentleman without notice, but he is assuming that they were necessarily within the National Assistance standards.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what number of applications to the National Assistance Board in Paisley, Greenock, and the county area of Renfrewshire over each of the past four years for refund of National Health Service prescription charges was refused.

In Renfrewshire, which includes Paisley and Greenock, 14, 9, 12 and 8, respectively.

Does the Parliamentary Secretary realise that some doctors in the area know of cases where the National Assistance Regulations, either in the past or as at present, do not take account of the chronicity of the illness from which a person is suffering? That is an added argument for suggesting that some consideration should be given to this element in phrasing the instructions to the National Assistance Board.

The Board is concerned with the level of income. These questions have shown that there have been very few refusals, and a not inconsiderable number in all these years of people who have drawn prescription charges whilst not normally on National Assistance.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what were the numbers and amounts of National Health Service prescript ion charges refunded by the National Assistance Board in Paisley, Greenock and Renfrewshire to persons not in receipt of National Assistance supplementation during each of the past four years.

As I have already explained, figures can be given only for 1959 and 1960. They are, for the whole county of Renfrewshire, including the two burghs named, respectively, £70 and £90 representing 1,400 and 1,800 prescription items.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary be kind enough to inform her right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance or her right hon. Friend the Minister of Health that a tremendous burden of administration is being handed over to the National Assistance Board in these areas, which already carry a heavy burden by virtue of the high and deep-seated unemployment there? Will not she consider arguing the case for making a register of the chronic sick, which would exempt people automatically without recourse to National Assistance investigation?

I will certainly bear in mind what the hon. Member has said and pass it on to my right hon. Friend.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what arrangements the National Assistance Board has made to refund the new prescription charges for those living on limited pensions, whether public or private, and on interest on savings and to what extent an assumed rent allowance will also be included in the disregards.

On the general question as to the basis on which these refunds are and will continue to be made, I would refer my hon. Friend to my reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Cooper). Rent or comparable outgoings and the normal disregards are of course allowed for by the Board's officer in making his assessment.

Arising out of the examples given by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health in the last debate, am I right in assuming that people not paying Income Tax on their basic income, their earnings being too low to attract Income Tax, would in the main be permitted to have their prescription charges refunded?

I should not like to tax my mathematical ingenuity by making, whilst standing at the Dispatch Box, an equalisation or balance between the Inland Revenue law and the National Assistance scales.

Why is it not possible for the Minister to state a figure of net income after payment of rent and rates below which it will be automatic for people to get refunds?

Even rent and rates do not resolve the matter. In cases where there are children the Assistance scales vary considerably in accordance with their ages. That affects the calculation. There is also the element of special needs. I can certainly give examples, but they would be based on, say, half a dozen assumptions over and above those included in any Question on the Order Paper today.

Will not my right hon. Friend agree that there is very great anxiety about all these matters among all sections of the community? Is he considering any scheme for altering the pattern which may help those people above the National Assistance level who come into the category of small fixed incomes?

I am replying on these matters today on behalf of the National Assistance Board. If I understand my hon. Friend aright, what she says seems to be within the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health.

In view of the onerous burden put upon applicants and the officers of the National Assistance Board in establishing need in these cases, would it not be much better now to scrap the whole lot? Will not the administrative charges by far outweigh the saving the Treasury hopes to make?

As the administrative costs must be practically the same whether the refund is 1s. or 2s., the effect of the change must be to reduce the proportion of the costs of administration to the total refunded.

Do not all the Minister's answers show that the whole arrangement is extremely complicated and will be very difficult for ordinary people to understand in practice?

The right hon. Gentleman may say that, but ordinary people have succeeded in understanding it in practice for many years past.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many refunds of National Health Service prescription charges have been made by the National Assistance Board in East Ham during each of the last three years.

It is not possible to give figures of the number of refunds made in particular localities, as complete records are not kept by locality for the refunds made at Post Offices, which are the very great majority.

Without figures of this kind, how can the Government possibly claim that they are taking effective measures to avoid hardship resulting from the Health Service charges, or is it that the situation is simply that Conservatives do not care?

The hon. Member is making a false assumption. Anyone already receiving National Assistance gets back the charges automatically. It would be a sheer bureaucratic waste of time and money to sort out repayments which were automatically made to those applying to the Post Office— [HON. MEMBERS: "To whom?"] —to beneficiaries already receiving National Assistance and who draw that assistance through the Post Office. On showing their current National Assistance book, they will automatically draw back the prescription charges and they will be paid at the Post Office on showing their books.

Will not the hon. Lady agree that every hon. Member is entitled to know how this matter affects his constituents? Otherwise, how are hon. Members on the hon. Lady's side to be able to judge whether this is good legislation?

Some 12 million prescription receipts are put through the Post Office by people who are currently on National Assistance. Hon. Members have been suggesting that the procedure should be simplified, and this is the simplest method—the production of a receipt so that one can obtain a refund when one is on National Assistance.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what was the nature of the reply made by the National Assistance Board to the representations sent to them from recipients of National Assistance whose net increase in income is less than the increases being given to National Insurance beneficiaries from April next.

While I do not know what particular representations the hon. Member has in mind, I have little doubt that in any reply on this subject which the Board has sent, it has drawn attention to the fact that when account is taken of the increase in National Assistance scale rates, etc., in September, 1959, the increase above the January, 1958, level in April next in the income of a person receiving National Assistance will, other things being equal, be somewhat higher than in the case of a person in receipt only of National Insurance benefits.

The representations I have received have been complaints that the increases are not enough. In reply I have said that I agree with them and they are not enough. I thought the National Assistance Board might have thought of the same answer.

The hon. Gentleman's Question related to representations made not to him, but to the National Assistance Board.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will institute a sample inquiry, to be carried out after the National Health Service Contributions Bill has taken effect, into the standards of diet of old-age pensioners, the chronic sick, and the families of low wage-earners.

No, Sir. As the hon. Lady is no doubt aware, a continuous inquiry into the food consumption of all sections of the population is undertaken by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in the National Food Survey.

Is not the Minister aware that the inquiries carried out by the Ministry of Agriculture are utterly inadequate as they relate to lower income groups, old-age pensioners and the chronic sick? In order to determine how far new needs have been created by Government policy in regard to the Health Service, is it not the Minister's duty to ensure that an adequate survey is carried out?

First, the hon. Lady is quite wrong in what she said about the Food Survey, which makes special and separate investigation into what are classified as "pensioner households". As regards the second part of the hon. Lady's supplementary question, the Measure referred to in her Question does not affect either pensioners or the chronic sick, who do not pay these contributions anyway.

asked the Minister of Power what is the average cost of electricity generated per unit at the most modern coal-fired power stations; and what the cost is expected to be at the nuclear power station to be built at Wylfa, Anglesey.

Depending on the distance from the coalfields of coal-fired stations to be commissioned at about the same time as the proposed nuclear station at Wylfa, the cost of conventional generation at base load seems likely to be between 0·5d. and 0·6d. a unit. It is too early to give a figure for Wylfa, as the tender specification has not yet been issued, but the cost is not expected to be above this range.

Does that mean that we are already reaching the break-even point between conventional and nuclear power generation, or will do so at the station a: Wylfa when it is completed?

No, Sir. It does not mean quite that, because although the cost of generating or operating at nuclear stations may be below that at conventional stations, the capital cost of nuclear stations is very much higher. and the break-even point will not be reached for some time.

asked the Minister of Power if he will state approximately the time and expenditure it will take to make the supply of domestic gas non-poisonous; and if he will make a statement.

The Gas Council has estimated that it would cost about £100 million and would take a very long time to make towns gas virtually non-poisonous. The development plans of the industry are being based, to an increasing extent, on processes which give rise to a gas relatively free from carbon monoxide and the Gas Council has recommended all area boards to try to reduce the carbon monoxide content of the gas distributed to below 10 per cent.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware of the alarming number of deaths from leaking gas mains, particularly in older industrial areas such as Manchester and Salford? Since all that will be prevented when gas becomes entirely non-poisonous, does that not justify a bold and immediate plan, whatever the cost?

The number of deaths resulting from fractured mains is small, although it may get much publicity. But I agree that this is a serious matter, and urgent consideration is being and will be given to it by the Gas Council.

Will my hon. Friend consider the advisability of using methane, or natural gas, which is non-toxic?

That is not covered by this Question.

asked the Minister of Power if he is satisfied that the present arrangements for insurance against damage caused by radioactive contamination are sufficient to cover all possibilities of such damage to persons, livestock, and materials; and if he will make a statement.

Under the Nuclear Installations (Licensing and Insurance) Act, 1959, operators of nuclear installations, other than the Atomic Energy Authority and Government Departments, must insure or provide cover by other approved means in the sum of £5 million. My right hon. Friend is satisfied that this sum is sufficient to cover all possibilities of damage by direct radiation or radioactive contamination which could arise from any foreseeable accident. If £5 million were insufficient to meet claims, the Act provides for Parliament to decide how the claims shall be met.

The hon. Gentleman will be aware, no doubt, that insurance brokers and insurance companies are issuing this document, which I hold in my hand, to people affected in the areas of these sites where radioactive contamination could take place? Could he inform the House what arrangements are available at American bases, say at the Polaris base in Scotland, where radioactive waste and other effluents have to be disposed of? Is this covered by the Radioactive Substances Act? Are the present Government going to be responsible for that— [HON. MEMBERS: "Speech."] —or can the hon. Gentleman tell the House that some arrangements have been made with the American Government— [HON. MEMBERS: "Speech."] —Mr. Speaker, this is a very important matter. I have been approached by a constituent.

No one is complaining about the importance of this Question; the complaint is about the length of the supplementary question. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman can bring it to an end.

On a point of order. I did not hear you pulling me up because of the length of my supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. I heard hon. Members opposite trying to pull me up. However, if you agree that they were right in what they were doing, I am prepared to sit down again.

It is not as bad as that, but I hope the hon. Gentleman can bring his question to an end.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that certain constituents of mine want to know if there is the same cover for American bases, especially the Polaris base in Scotland, as there is for British bases which are covered by the 1959 Act which the hon. Gentleman mentioned?

Any question about the Polaris base is a matter for my right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty. As it is a Government matter, the question of insurance does not arise.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I have your guidance on this matter? I have been trying to get this Question answered for several weeks. I put it down to the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister, but I was informed that it was not possible for him to answer it and that inquiries about radioactive substances should be addressed to the Minister of Power who was responsible for such questions. I do not think the Parliamentary Secretary should evade his responsibilities and shelve the question as he has done.

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that there is no question of evading responsibilities, but there is no intention of assuming other people's responsibilities.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. As I understand it, from time to time Members put down Questions which are transferred to other Ministers. That is really a matter for the Table, but I cannot remember a precedent—

The hon. Member is under some illusion. Transfer is one of the matters which are not the responsibility of the Table.

If I stand corrected on that, then it is a transfer within the Government itself. Apparently on this occasion the Question was not so transferred; it was allowed by the Government agency to stay with the Minister to whom it was addressed. It is an abuse against which you must protect us if Ministers are going to give such a reply as we have heard this afternoon. It is evading responsibility in such a situation.

The hon. Gentleman, of course, is quite wrong—

Order. The point of order was addressed to me. I should like to look textually at the hon. Member's question which seemed to relate to matters of insurance. There was a certain amount of noise and interruption, and I should like to look at it before I say anything about the subject matter. But this should be clear. Transfer, where transfer occurs—and here it did not—is never a matter for the Chair, nor is it within the power of the Chair to compel any Minister to answer a question if he chooses not to do so. That is the difficulty.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. That is not the point, and I mean no disrespect to you in saying that. I put down the Question to the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister. I was told at the Table Office, after the officers there had investigated very fully and had gone to great pains to satisfy themselves as to the correctness of the procedure, that the Question ought to be addressed to the Minister of Power. I accepted that. Today the Parliamentary Secretary says that it is a matter for the Prime Minister. That is the position we are in, and we must have some help.

I did not hear the Parliamentary Secretary say that. I assure the hon. Member that I have got the point, but it still remains the fact that I cannot compel a Minister to answer a question if he does not want to do so.

asked the Minister of Power if he will give the number of oil-fired power stations which are in operation in the British Isles.

Twelve oil-fired steam stations or parts of stations are in operation in Great Britain.

Does the Minister realise that this is one more than was operating in 1959? What steps is he likely to take to ensure that the ones suitable for conversion are converted to coal-firing at the earliest possible moment?

It would be an unwise step to convert to coal stations at present using oil at a time when demand for coal is larger than the amount of coal being produced.

asked the Minister of Power by how much the pithead price of coal has risen since nationalisation; and what percentage of this rising price has been due to increased wages for the miners.

On average, proceeds from sales at the pithead have risen by 45s. 5d. a ton. About 46 per cent. of this represents increased labour costs.

asked the Minister of Power in what areas there is a shortage of mineworkers; and in what types of job.

Shortage of mineworkers is mainly confined to the Midlands, Yorkshire and parts of South Wales. Vacancies exist for juveniles, for mechanics and electricians and for underground workers generally.

Can the hon. Gentleman say what steps are being taken to remedy the shortages?

The steps being taken are a resumption of recruitment from June, 1960, and, as the hon. Gentleman no doubt knows, the rate of wastage, which was then going up very quickly, slowed up in the last half of 1960 and is now about static.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in order to obtain sufficient recruits the Army, the Navy and the Royal Air Force have substantially raised rates of pay? Will he advise the National Coal Board to take a leaf out of the Services' book?

I think the National Coal Board has already taken that leaf.

asked the Minister of Power in what varieties of coals there are now shortages.

I am told by the Board that the supply position varies from place to place. In some places there are particular coals, such as certain South Wales boiler fuels, for which the Board cannot at present meet the full demand. It can usually supply customers for whom these coals are essential, and offer adequate substitutes to others.

Does the right hon. Gentleman's reply mean that the number of pit closures is being reconsidered?

I imagine that the hon. Gentleman has in mind the position in South Wales and the closure of anthracite pits. The need for scarce fuels must be balanced extremely carefully against the high cost of getting them.

Can my right hon. Friend give any hope that the shortage of scarce fuels, such as anthracite grains, will be overcome?

The position should improve when the Board's new mines in South Wales at Cynheidre and Abernant come into production. They are already producing, but their production will be considerably increased.

asked the Minister of Power, what is the accumulated revenue deficit of the National Coal Board to date.

The accumulated deficit was £63·5 million at 30th June, 1960. Figures for the Board's accounting year ending 31st December, 1960, will be available when the Accounts are published.

Can my right hon. Friend give an assurance that he will not agree to his right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer putting this burden on the shoulders of the taxpayer at any stage?

My hon. Friend had better direct his Question to my right hon. and learned Friend.

asked the hon. Member for Holland with Boston, as Chairman of the Kitchen Committee, whether, in view of difficulties arising from staffing arrangements in the catering department and particularly in the Members' Tea Room during the all-night sitting of 15th-16th February, he proposes any alterations in the arrangements for future sittings extending into the night.

asked the hon. Member for Holland with Boston, as Chairman of the Kitchen Committee (1) what steps he intends to take to improve the catering arrangements during all-night sittings;

asked the hon. Member for Holland with Boston, as Chairman of the Kitchen Committee if he is satisfied with the arrangements made for staff to deal with late and all-night sittings; and if he will make a statement.

This matter is being referred by me to the Kitchen Committee, which meets on Wednesday, for urgent and careful attention. The main difficulty when so many other positions in the catering trade are available is to attract staff of the right type who are prepared to work under circumstances where there are no fixed hours for finishing duties or, on the other hand, no certainty of regular overtime. Approximately twenty-five persons interviewed for positions on the staff of the Department have declined such terms of employment. It is considered that the long and irregular hours have been the main reason for the resignation of at least six members of our staff.

Is it likely that the department will attract new staff? Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that last Thursday girls in the catering department were on their feet for 21 hours, excluding meal times? Is it not impossible to get people to work in those conditions? When the Chairman of the Kitchen Committee pays homage to the loyalty of the staff, will he not agree that conditions of that sort are just exploitation of the staff and that if such conditions were found outside the House hon. Members would be the first roundly to condemn any employer who imposed them?

I am glad that the hon. Member has referred to the splendid services rendered by members of the staff. It is a fact that no fewer than three members of the staff suffered from extreme exhaustion during the last all-night sitting. One of the women was sent home by taxi and another returned for work only this morning. I am sure that the hon. Member will realise that the Kitchen Committee is responsible to the House for discharging its duties to hon. Members but is also conscious of its duty to behave as a good employer. At times it finds it extremely difficult to reconcile its different duties.

In view of the fact that at least one person had to work excessive hours for two all-night sittings, can my hon. Friend say what steps he is taking to get substitutes for these people in these circumstances? Secondly, can he confirm that a number of staff had to go home by taxi, and if so, were the taxi fares paid by the Kitchen Committee?

The Department would be most happy to recruit anybody of suitable calibre who is willing to accept the terms of employment. Indeed, we are urgently seeking such people with the help of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour. With regard to the return of staff by taxi, I think I am right in saying that the one person who went home by taxi was somebody whose health was such that this was desirable. Unfortunately, or fortunately, as the case may be, the hour at which the House rose was at a time when public transport was then available, and no special arrangements for the return of staff by taxi were provided.

If one of the major difficulties encountered by the Kitchen Committee in the recruitment of staff is, as the Chairman says, the long and irregular hours, would he and the Committee give some consideration to the possible enlistment of a permanent night staff, with guaranteed employment, at least until the Summer Recess?

I take note of that suggestion. We will certainly endeavour to implement it. On the other hand, I ought to point out that we already have nine vacancies on the present staff.

Would the hon. Gentleman consider whether the reserve pool of staff who are normally used for special functions in this House and who, I am told, are brought in at week-ends could be used more effectively in giving the service to which Members are entitled?

Certainly all steps, including approaching members of the staff to whom the hon. Lady referred, have been made by the manager and the staff officers of the Department, but the fact remains that we cannot compel people to work here if more attractive conditions of employment are available elsewhere.

Is not one of the difficulties in recruiting staff the fact that these loyal members of the staff to whom the Chairman has referred, and who, as he says, are so good in looking after hon. Members, are also expected to come in at week-ends to man-up these private functions on which this administration is relying in order to make a profit out of the catering department? Does not this mean that the staff have to work excessive hours at very poor rates of overtime, and, in addition, that the interests of hon. Members in being enabled to do their job properly are sacrificed to the profit-making activities of the catering department?

No, the hon. Lady has not fully considered the present method of operating the department. There is no suggestion of profit-making whatsoever. Unless Members had opportunities available here for entertaining their own guests, it would be even more difficult to retain the services of the staff.