asked the Minister of Works what stage has been reached in the compulsory acquisition of various properties in Bridge Street, Westminster; and what plans he has in mind for the use of this site.

There was a public inquiry on 7th March into the amendment proposed by the London County Council to its Development Plan, covering my Department's designation of the Bridge Street-Parliament Street-Embankment site. Until the Minister of Housing and Local Government has reached a decision there can be no compulsory acquisition of any part of the site.

Will the Minister bear in mind that hon. Members and their secretaries are working here in the Palace of Westminster in slum conditions that would not be tolerated outside? Will the right hon. Gentleman therefore use whatever influence he can to ensure the speedy acquisition of the Bridge Street site and the provision of further office accommodation to enable hon. Members to carry out their work much more efficiently than they can at present?

Yes, Sir. No time at all will be wasted, I can assure the hon. Member. Meanwhile, I know that he would agree with me that hon. Members are to be congratulated on bearing so cheerfully with the horrible conditions which surround them.

I cannot afford a secretary.

asked the Minister of Works whether he will now permit the opening of the Tower of London to the public on Sundays throughout the extended period of summer time.

Yes, Sir. The Tower of London, including the Jewel House, will be open to the public this year on Easter Sunday and thereafter every Sunday until 29th October from 2 p.m. until 5 p.m.

May I thank the Minister for that big improvement which will be much appreciated by visitors to London?

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he is now in a position to make a statement on his consultations with west Midlands local authorities about Birmingham overspill; and, in particular, to what extent the site of the former Royal Ordnance factory at Swynnerton has been considered.

I regret that I am still not in a position to add to my reply to the hon. Member's Question of 24th January.

Is the Minister aware of the serious situation that this is causing? Is he aware that the present uncertainty about the use of certain sites in the west Midlands that might be suitable for satellite development means that these sites are virtually sterilised and cannot be developed industrially to create more employment or for any other purpose? Can the right hon. Gentleman do anything to speed a decision about which sites will be used for satellite development?

I am anxious to find a solution for the almost intractable problem of overspill from Birmingham and the west Midlands. If I started naming particular sites before I came to make a decision, I think, quite frankly, that that might start speculation.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that it is no use asking local authorities in the west Midlands area to accept Birmingham overspill without industry following or preceding the overspill? Is he further aware that in the Uttoxeter urban district area, within the Burton Parliamentary division, it is being found increasingly difficult to accept Birmingham overspill because no new industry is following and these people are most unhappy in country areas after living in a city area?

Without saying anything in particular about Uttoxeter, I accept from my hon. Friend that it is important that where possible an increase in population should be accompanied by an increase in industrial development.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs why he rejected for grant aid, under the Local Employment Act, 1960, the application of the Kirkby Urban District Council, relating to the Liverpool North sewage disposal project which is required in connection with industrial effluent in the area.

This sewage works extension is needed principally to meet existing industrial and domestic requirements. The Local Employment Act, 1960, provides assistance only for schemes which are expedient for the purpose of providing new employment.

Does this mean that the right hon. Gentleman is, in effect, administratively de-scheduling the Merseyside area for purposes of the 1960 Act? Does not he appreciate that it is quite impossible to distinguish between existing industry and new industry, and will he look at this matter again? Is he aware that, although this is Grand National week in that part of the world, most of my constituents are very unhappy about putting all their shirts on the motor car industry at this time in view of that industry's present difficulties?

I am not scheduling or de-scheduling anything, but I am certain that my decision in this case is right. These powers are intended to be used where, by means of a Government grant, services can be improved in order to attract industry. This particular sewage works extension was principally for the benefit of existing industry.

If I bring new representations before the right hon. Gentleman about this, will he consider them?

I always consider any new facts that are brought to my notice.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he will make a statement about the proposal of the Atomic Energy Authority to establish seismic instrument sites in the Dartmoor National Park.

As my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary for Science explained on 14th March, six local interests were consulted about this temporary installation of a number of small recording instrument pits on Dartmoor. Only one, the Dartmoor Preservation Association, objected. My right hon. Friend saw no need to intervene in view of the negligible effect on amenities.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that the Atomic Energy Authority failed to contact the National Parks Commission? Does not he consider that to be a considerable slight on an important statutory body? Will he take into account that, although these seismic sites are said to be temporary, a good many residents of Dartmoor National Park fear that they may become permanent?

My information is that the National Parks Commission did consider the project and raised no objection. Certainly the Dartmoor National Park Planning Committee was consulted. There is no reason to fear that these sites are permanent. They serve a very important national purpose in research behind the Geneva talks.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether, in view of the increase in building operatives employed by local authorities between 1951 and 1959, he will initiate an inquiry to ascertain from local authorities the total value of work carried out by direct labour forces in 1951 and 1959.

My right hon. Friend the Minister of Works already collects information from which it is possible to estimate the cost of work carried out by direct labour forces in Great Britain. The figure was about £107 million in 1951 and £200 million in 1959. This represented, in each case, 8 per cent. of all building and civil engineering work carried out during the year.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the grave disquiet amongst ratepayers throughout the country because local authorities have these direct labour forces? Does not he agree that a reduction in the numbers of these labour forces and in the amount of work they do would be a step in the right direction towards halting this creeping nationalisation of a major industry?

It is important to distinguish between direct labour forces used for maintenance work, much of which could be done only with difficulty otherwise, and direct labour forces used for new construction. The remedy in every case rests with the ratepayers themselves at local government elections.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in many cases direct works departments are saving the ratepayers hundreds of thousands of pounds? Is he aware that on one contract alone in Salford £130,000 was saved, and that, when one also takes into account interest over sixty years, the total comes to over £500,000? Is he also aware that the job of building 700 flats in this case was completed not in three years but in eighteen months?

There is a great deal of argument about this. Many people tell me that direct labour saves money, while an equal number—if not a larger number—tell me that it wastes money.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what action he proposes to take to amend Section 31 of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1959, in the light of the decision in Buxton v. Minister of Housing and Local Government.

The law provides that the planning applicant and the planning authority, as well as anyone else with rights under Section 37 arising out of ownership of the land, can make application to the High Court to have a decision of the Minister quashed on certain grounds. I do not think there is a case for empowering other people to apply to the court, if none of those thinks fit to do so. A grant of planning permission does not, of course, impair the rights of adjoining owners at common law.

Does not my right hon. Friend appreciate that, unless this Section is amended so as to widen the meaning of the term "person aggrieved", persons appearing at public inquiries, no matter how much their interests may be affected, will continue to have no safeguard against procedural error or abuse of the power conferred by Parliament, unless it so happens that they have legal interests in the land, which may not be the case? Does not he agree that such a situation very largely defeats the object of a public inquiry, as opposed to a hearing between two parties to an application, since the public inquiry is an invitation to such persons to make their representations?

If there has been an error, one would prima facie think that either the applicant, or the planning authority, or someone with a legal interest in the land, would wish to call attention to it. One must consider these matters in practical terms. If my hon. Friend's suggestion were adopted, and he needed planning permission to build a house somewhere, almost anybody could hold him up for months by saying that he was aggrieved because he did not like the proposed house, and that person could start a legal action on a technicality. That is the difficulty.

Would the right hon. Gentleman consider whether arrangements could be made whereby people who are interested, as distinct from being legally aggrieved, by the grant of planning permission, are fully informed when applications for planning permission are made?

This is a matter to which I have been giving a good deal of consideration. I do not think that it would be sensible to require planning authorities to advertise all the planning applications that are made, for they run into something like 500,000 a year. But I am anxious that the local authorities should bring to the notice of local people who may be interested any proposals of a major character, and I have it in mind to circularise local authorities on those lines.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will issue a circular to all local authorities urging them to accept payment of rates by equal regular instalments, either weekly or monthly, to help those ratepayers who find it difficult to meet heavy quarterly demands.

There are recommendations in this sense in the 1957 White Paper, Local Government Finance (England and Wales) (Cmnd. 209). When the current Rating and Valuation Bill is on the Statute Book, I will consider the case for any further reminder.

While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for that reply, may I ask if he realises that, while concessions of this kind are important in certain districts, it is not a general practice, and I am doubtful whether all local authorities are legally entitled to do what they are doing in this respect? Will he put the matter on a proper legal basis in the event of his discovering that local authorities cannot do what many of them want to do?

I was not aware of any legal obstacle, but I will look into that point. I have it in mind to send local authorities a circular when the Rating and Valuation Bill reaches the Statute Book.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs why he allowed the appeal of D. Heath and Sons, Limited, against a refusal of planning permission by the Saffron Walden Rural District Council.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs for what reasons he allowed the appeal of D. Heath and Sons, Limited, against a refusal of planning permission by the Saffron Walden Rural District Council.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he will publish details of all the information on which he based his decision to allow the appeal of D. Heath & Sons, Limited, against a refusal of planning permission by the Saffron Walden Rural District Council.

I cannot do better than send the hon. Members a copy of the decision letter sent on my behalf on 17th September, 1959. I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the passage in this letter which explains why I differed from my inspector's recommendation to dismiss the appeal.

Will the Minister also circulate to hon. Members concerned and make available to the House a copy of the inspector's report in this case? Does the Minister accept that this is, as it has been described by the Lord Chancellor, a very serious matter, and has he noticed that the learned judge in the case of Buxton v. the Minister of Housing and Local Government said in effect that he did not believe the Minister's account of his consultations with the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food?

I will place in the Library a copy of the decision letter and also a copy of the inspector's report, which is a fairly lengthy document. As to the manner in which I reached this decision, that has been reported by the Council on Tribunals to the Lord Chancellor who has the matter under consideration. I do not think that, in those circumstances, I should be pressed to say anything more at this stage.

Is the Minister aware that he still seems to be indicating that only some of the information will be available? Will he give the House an assurance that at some time in the future all the information on which this decision was based will be available?

I assure the hon. Gentleman that all the material information bearing on my decision is contained in the letter in question.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs (1) whether he is aware of dissatisfaction in Cardiff caused by assessors of flood damage; and whether, in view of the Government's contribution to the distress fund, he will intervene on behalf of persons aggrieved in this way;

I understand that 2,171 claims have been lodged by Cardiff residents, of which over 2,100 have already been settled and paid, to an amount of over £80,000. Two complaints which the hon. Member has brought to my notice do not seem to be well founded. Administration is in the hands of the Lord Mayor of Cardiff, and it is not for me to intervene or devise appeal machinery; I am sure that any complaint will be thoroughly examined.

I thank the Minister for that reply. Bearing in mind that the assessors from his Department are really the people who decide the claims and not the Lord Mayor, who is just the head in title of the fund, will the Minister make it possible for those people who have a sense of grievance to appeal? That is all I ask. I appreciate that the overwhelming proportion is very well satisfied with the administration of the scheme.

I do not think that I should interfere. These assessments are made by officers of the Cardiff Corporation working to what are known as the Lord Mayor of London's Distress Fund rules which were arrived at and gave general satisfaction at the time of the 1953 floods. I understand that there is a fund committee which is generally responsible, and I do not think that I ought to take these matters out of local hands.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he will introduce legislation to amend Section 12 of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, in order to protect open land in National Parks from commercial afforestation.

No, Sir. Agreement has been reached between the various interests concerned for a voluntary scheme to control afforestation in the National Parks. The terms of this scheme were circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT on 14th February, 1961. My right hon. Friend would like to see this scheme given a fair trial.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the bodies concerned with protecting the National Parks consider that this voluntary scheme is totally inadequate? Is he aware that there would not seem to be much logic in legislation which subjects every building proposal on open land to minute scrutiny and yet does nothing to prevent the public from having vast areas of open land taken away by commercial afforestation?

From a later letter in The Times from Sir Herbert Griffin, my understanding is that the sponsors of the memorandum urging statutory control also wish to see the voluntary scheme succeed.

Does not my hon. Friend agree that there is great benefit in many of these National Park areas in the employment provided by afforestation schemes, and would he not agree that it should be part of Government policy to encourage them in suitable cases?

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs when he anticipates concluding his consideration of the reports from local authorities on the proposed reform of local government in the London area; and, in view of the effect on the policies of local authorities caused by uncertainty about future developments, if he will give an assurance that no major alteration will take place in the present pattern of local government in the London and neighbouring area for a specified period of time.

I will make a statement as soon as I can about the views expressed to me by the local authorities, but I do not think it is practicable to give such an assurance as is suggested.

Does not the Minister appreciate that many local authorities are in a quandary? They do not know how to plan for the future because of the uncertainty. Would it not be highly desirable if, for x number of years at least, they could make their plans on the present basis and so avoid the uncertainty?

I do not think I could announce a standstill for a number of years. This uncertainty is not created by the Royal Commission. In fact in its Report the Royal Commission drew attention to the uncertainty about the future, and I am anxious to bring that uncertainty to an end as early as possible.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if the consultations between officers of his department and Newcastle-under-Lyme Borough Council about the Thistleberry scheme have now been completed; and if, in view of the urgency for slum clearance and housing development in this area, he will now give loan sanction for this scheme.

The consultations have been completed and loan sanction was given on 15th March.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs how many houses were built by rural district councils in the county of Cornwall during the years 1958, 1959, and 1960; and how many dwellings for old people were built by the same authorities for the same periods.

In answer to the first part of the Question, 88, 141 and 89 respectively; in answer to the second part, 11, 7 and 51.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that those figures are incredibly low? Does not he think that there is a case now for investigating the reasons why rural councils are at such a disadvantage compared with urban and municipal councils? Is there not something wrong in a case where a very small number of houses are being built by rural district councils when the need for them is equally great as it is in other areas?

I do not think that they are at a disadvantage. I was gratified to hear of the increases in the number of dwellings built for old people. This matter rests ultimately on the local electors who, if they troubled to cast their votes at elections, might get much better councils throughout the country.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what is the estimated cost of the largest type of council house excluding loan charges completed by the Oldham Corporation and approved by his Department; and what additional amount will be required to provide for repayment of loan charges over the whole period of the loan.

The building price of the last three-bedroomed houses completed by Oldham Corporation was £1,504. I am unable to state the cost of the land, roads and services.

Of course, it will. Is not the Minister aware of what are the normal rates of interest charges and the normal rules for borrowing? Is not he aware that these interest rates will amount to rather more than twice the cost of the house? If that be so, is not the vital problem of local government the problem of trying to provide reasonable financial facilities for the reduction of existing debts and for paying for capital expenditure out of income in the future?

I think that the vital matter is the provision which is made by the Exchequer, and for local authorities which are in financial need on their housing revenue account the Government's new Housing Bill will provide fresh help.

Has not the Minister come prepared with the answer to the latter part of my hon. Friend's Question based on the normal rates of interest and amortisation, and is his shyness in this matter due to the fact that if he gave such an answer it would reveal the unsatisfactory nature of the Government's policy with regard to interest rates?

No. I am not shy at all and there is no secrecy about this, but it is not really much good my giving a figure based on the Public Works Loan Board rate when I know that the Oldham Corporation has not borrowed from the Public Works Loan Board for six years.

And for very good reasons.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what is the present estimate of the economic rent which should be charged by Oldham Corporation for the most recent and largest type of corporation houses approved by his Department to enable the corporation to qualify for the maximum subsidy under the new scheme recently announced.

The hon. Member is surely under a misapprehension. The proposed rates of subsidy under the Housing Bill are based on an overall assessment of the local authority's resources, not on the rents charged for particular houses.

That may be, but surely the right hon. Gentleman made it clear that to qualify for this it was necessary to charge economic rents for council houses? Is it not equally clear that what he is trying to do is to force tenants of Oldham houses to pay additional rents wholly to repay financial charges imposed by the Government upon the cost of the houses?

I hope that the hon. Gentleman will listen to my speech when I move the Second Reading of the Housing Bill next week, because I am afraid that he has been misled by some mistaken accounts of the Bill in the Press.

If anyone has been misled, is it not much more likely that he has been misled by the misleading phrases in the Government's White Paper? Although the Minister says, and according to the text of the Bill it is correct, that he is not trying to push local authorities into charging certain rents, none the less the White Paper says quite clearly that that is what he is trying to do. Why is there this contradiction?

There is no contradiction. If the hon. Gentleman felt so strongly about the terms of the White Paper he might have mentioned the subject in his half-hour speech last night.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs to what extent the building of many-storied domestic flat dwellings in extra-Metropolitan boroughs has modified the previous policy of reducing the population of certain of those boroughs; approximately how many persons have been rehoused during the last ten years in flat-dwellings of more than two floors within London and the extra-Metropolitan area; what is now considered to be the desirable maximum density of persons per acre in these areas; and how much land has been made permanently open by the provision of this type of dwelling.

There has been no material change from the objectives set out in the approved plans for the extra-Metropolitan boroughs.

Does not the Minister feel that it would be very valuable to those earnestly concerned in this matter if such information as I have asked for were obtained? Does not he also appreciate that the assumed criterion of density has been badly affected by the new development in housing? Under those circumstances, cannot he endeavour to secure the information that I desire?

The important point is the density figure. I have asked all the planning authorities concerned to review their densities. But I have to go through certain statutory procedures before alterations in the development plans are made, and I do not think that I can be asked to lay down an optimum or maximum density for a whole area—because it is bound to depend, to some extent, on local circumstances.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what information he has concerning submission of the first proposals from the Local Boundary Commission; and if he will make a statement.

I assume that the hon. Member is referring to the Local Government Commission for Wales. I understands that it expects to publish their draft proposals for the whole of Wales in the early summer.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what support he proposes to give in the coming year to Voluntary Service Overseas, either by way of grant from Colonial Development and Welfare funds, or other means.

As stated by my right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the Leader of the House in replies to earlier Question, Her Majesty's Government are always prepared to consider further assistance to organisations of this kind. Any assistance furnished by Her Majesty's Government will depend on the nature of such requests for help as may be received.

Is my hon. Friend aware that many of us feel that organisations such as this yield an exceptionally high dividend, both in human understanding and in good will, especially in the underdeveloped territories of the Commonwealth? Can he assure the House that the Colonial Office will study these needs very carefully, and meet them if it can?

Yes, certainly.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps are being taken by the Northern Rhodesia Government to spread knowledge among Africans and others of the need for conservation of wild life in the territory; and what financial support is given to the organisations working for this purpose.

The Northern Rhodesia Government spread this knowledge through lectures, broadcasts and films. Although no direct financial support is given to game preservation organisations, they are assisted by the provision of access roads, sites and other services in the Kafue National Park.

Is the Under-Secretary of State aware that the present policy is quite unsatisfactory? Will he review it, in the light of the recent report of Dr. Fraser Darling, in view of the fact that the proper conservation of wild life would yield a very substantial meat diet to the Africans, whereas the indiscriminate slaughter which is going on at the present time is likely to lead to hunger in a very short time, apart from the destruction of wild life?

In the last ten years we have made considerable progress and incurred a great deal of expenditure. What is more, this autumn we will be in touch with the International Union for the Conservation of Nature and also the Commission for Technical Co-operation South of the Sahara. In September a conference will be called at Arusha to discuss these matters on an international basis. I agree that further steps should be taken, and the Northern Rhodesia Government propose to do so.

Will my hon. Friend read Dr. Fraser Darling's book and his report? If he does he will not be so happy about the position. Is he aware that the complete extinction of native African fauna is passing from a possibility to a probability? Is he further aware that, largely through poaching, the utmost cruelty ensues, and that game has been extinguished to the detriment not only of the diet of the Africans but largely to the future of the tourist trade?

Yes, Sir. We are aware of those facts. It is because of the poaching that goes on that the matter should be handled at an international level. That is precisely why we are calling the conference at Arusha in the autumn.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what requests he has received to meet leaders of political parties in Kenya during his journey to East Africa next week; and what action he proposes to take with regard to the present political deadlock in Kenya.

I have received no such requests. As regards the second part of the hon. Member's Question, I have nothing to add to my reply to him on 16th March.

Does the Colonial Secretary agree that the situation has improved, now that Mr. Kenyatta has asked the leaders of the Kenya African National Union to see him? Will the right hon. Gentleman still further improve the situation by taking the initiative to meet Mr. Cichuru, Mr. Mboya and Mr. Ngala, if only informally, during his trip to Nairobi?

I do not regard the situation as one of deadlock, although it is not easy to see how it will work out at the present stage. As for the second part of the hon. Member's supplementary question, I think it important that a Secretary of State should not appear in any way to intervene in what is clearly the Governor's affair in forming the Administration.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the number of political detainees still restricted in Kenya without trial; and how many have been restricted for five years or more.

Of the persons detained without trial during the Emergency, two remain in detention and forty-four under restriction. The two detainees and forty-three of the others have been held for over five years. Of the persons held in 1960 as a result of Operation Milltown, twenty-five remain under restriction. I should emphasise that all these people are held for security reasons.

Are not these figures rather alarming? In view of the fact that they include men who have been acquitted of all charges made against them, and in view of the improved situation in Kenya, will the right hon. Gentleman consider whether they can all be released forthwith?

I should have thought that the right deduction from these figures was that there has been a remarkable reduction over the figures that my predecessors and I have had to give the House since the beginning of the emergency, some time ago.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps have been taken by electoral registration officers in Nyasaland to check tax records of voters applying to qualify as taxpayers for the last ten years.

The electoral registration officers acted in accordance with instructions issued to them by the Governor, and I will send a copy of these instructions to my hon. Friend.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Is he aware that Malawi publications have recently indicated that, provided an African can produce a certificate stating that he has paid tax for the previous year, no further evidence or check would be required, other than a simple statement by him that tax had been paid during the previous nine years, in accordance with the rules? In those circumstances, is my right hon. Friend satisfied that abuses, on whatever scale, did not take place?

I have not seen that reference. Perhaps my hon. Friend will draw my attention to it. But it is a fact that if one pays tax one does so only when one has satisfied any tax arrears there may be for previous years. Therefore, the payment of tax is prima facie evidence of having paid it in recent years. Although some difficulty was expected in these matters, as I think my Answer shows, it did not eventuate.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received from the Scottish Trades Union Congress requesting him to receive a deputation from it to discuss with him its concern about the new property valuations and about Government policy relating to housing and house rents in Scotland; and what reply he has sent.

My right hon. Friend has not received any such representations.

Does the Minister realise that the Scottish Trades Union Congress is handing him on a plate an opportunity to improve his knowledge of Scotland? Will he take the first available opportunity of discussing with that Congress Scotland's needs and desires, so that his policy may be more realistic in regard to them than it is at present?

If my right hon. Friend receives any communication from the Congress he will naturally consider it very carefully.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware of the concern of the parents of pupils attending Moray House Demonstration School regarding its threatened closure; and if he will make a statement.

My right hon. Friend appreciates the concern felt by the parents of the pupils affected about the proposals which the governors of the college have made to him for the closure of the secondary department of the demonstration school. He is considering this very difficult matter with great care and will take into account the views of all parties before he reaches a decision, which he hopes to do very shortly.

Is the hon. Member aware that this has been going on for a long time? Although I would not wish to make him hurry if that would injure the parents and the children, I hope that he will soon be able to come to a decision in the matter.

We hope to do so.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he proposes to present the new draft regulations for the training of teachers.

Draft Regulations arising out of the present comprehensive review of teacher training will not be issued for some considerable time. Discussions with interested bodies are still proceeding, and my right hon. Friend will have to consider all the views expressed before deciding what to include in the draft Regulations.

In the meantime, will the hon. Gentleman note that one of the chief causes of disturbance among Scottish teachers today is the fear that his right hon. Friend proposes to accept the principle of dilution with regard to teachers' qualifications on entry into the profession? Will he impress upon him that dilution has always reduced the quality of education in any country where it has been employed, and that to give it statutory recognition now will perpetuate an evil which every national interest demands should be abolished?

I am very glad that the hon. Member has given me the opportunity to emphasise once more that it was not the purpose of the memorandum to make proposals. It asked questions of the teachers' organisations and others, and on the basis of the answers to those questions proposals will be worked out. Surely, this is not an unreasonable way of approaching the problem.

It depends on the result.

Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that it is precisely because his Department has thought fit to make such a proposal even in present circumstances that the ire and anger of the teachers have been aroused? Will he bear in mind that at the very time when the teaching profession in other countries is trying to raise the standard, it would be deplorable if in Scotland we had to lower ours?

The Department did not make proposals; it asked questions.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he is taking to avert the impending strike among teachers.

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which my right hon. Friend gave, on 16th March, to the hon. Members for Fife, East (Sir J. Henderson-Stewart) and Glasgow, Shettleston (Sir M. Galpern).

Noting that reply, may I ask if the hon. Gentleman is aware that, in addition to the fear of dilution, there is also discontent in the teaching profession about the long time that negotiations take today in reaching salary conclusions, and that, when the decision is finally arrived at, because of the delay, the result is often a loss to the teachers? Would he not consider, for example, the appointment of an impartial tribunal which would come to a speedier conclusion when the employers and employees differ as to the scales of salaries?

All I can say at present is that current negotiations do not seem to be progressing at a very different tempo from that of previous negotiations.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is not only discontent among teachers, but very great concern throughout Scotland, at the possibility of a complete breakdown in our education? Will not the hon. Gentleman prod his right hon. Friend into taking some action to avert this disaster?

I do not think I should say anything to prejudice in any way the considerations which at present are being given to the problem by the National Joint Council.

Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that the teachers' salary submissions were made in the beginning of this year, that no progress has yet been made and that we are now nearly at the end of March? Is that speed?

Answer.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many retired teachers are presently employed in primary schools and in secondary schools in Scotland, respectively.

Seven hundred and sixteen retired teachers were in employment during the quarter ending 31st December, 1960. I regret that it is not possible to say how many of them were in primary and how many in secondary schools.

Is the Joint Under-Secretary aware that these figures represent a very small percentage indeed of the total number of retired teachers available for service? In a situation of crisis, in which we find a shortage of teachers in Scotland of no less than 3,800, or 8·2 per cent. of the total number of teachers employed, ought not every incentive to be offered to these people to return to the schools?

The hon. Member will be aware of the efforts we have been making to try to get an increased number to go back to help to meet the present emergency.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if, in view of the crisis in Scottish education brought about by the shortage of teachers, he is now prepared to accept recommendations 5 and 6, concerning full pay and full pensions, contained in the Knox Committee's Report on measures to improve the supply of teachers in Scotland of 31st December, 1958.

Very full and careful consideration has been given to this recommendation, but I regret that the Government are unable to accept it.

May I ask the Joint Under-Secretary if he is aware of the fact that here we have one of the positive recommendations made by the Knox Committee set up by his right hon. Friend to inquire into the shortage and supply of teachers in Scotland, and that, on two occasions, the Knox Committee made a recommendation that in this period of staffing crisis, full pay and full pension ought to be granted under certain conditions to teachers who are prepared to return to teaching? Is he aware that if any principle is involved, the Government themselves departed from the fundamental principle when there was a shortage of police during the war when, in order to augment their number, they granted full pay and pension rights?

Yes, but the decision we have made is in line with the principle generally applicable to public servants, and it has been maintained by successive Governments for a great number of years.

Except during the war.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many local authorities exercise their powers under Section 132 of the Local Government Act, 1948.

I regret that this information is not available.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is growing interest in the number of local authorities which are rating for the purpose of entertainment, music and the theatre? Is he aware that in Dundee recently, there was a threat to close the repertory theatre, which would have followed but for the help of the local authority? Further, is he aware that in Glasgow a very desirable project called the Falcon Theatre, to establish an arts centre and provide a home for an amateur drama group, is now in being, and will the hon. Gentleman consider how he can stimulate the local authorities to exercise their powers, to pool their resources and to allocate them on a regional basis?

I will consider the hon. Gentleman's suggestion. But I think that this matter is one which must be left to the discretion of the local authority, which has the power to act in the way which he has suggested.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many local authorities make grants to the Scottish National Orchestra and civic theatres, respectively.

One hundred local authorities made grants to the Scottish National Orchestra in 1959–60. Four made grants to permanent repertory theatres.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that recently the Scottish National Orchestra found it impossible to accept an invitation to give several performances in the United States? Does he not think that, from a national point of view, this is a loss of prestige and dignity, and cannot he consider this matter in the light of the consideration to be given to the suggestion made in Question No. 36?

I will certainly take note of what the hon. Gentleman has said.