asked the Minister of Transport what are the regulations regarding the maximum width of loads on road transport vehicles; and what statutory regulations are in force concerning exceptional loads.

The maximum width of load normally permissible on motor vehicles is 9 feet 6 inches. Where a load exceeds this width, the police must be notified of its movement in advance, and they have power to control the time and route. Loads which exceed 20 feet in width can move only under an order issued by my right hon. Friend. An order is also necessary before loads over 14 feet wide can use the motorways, and we have circulated proposals which would enable us to control all loads of this width.

While thanking my hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask what liaison takes place with large firms moving these very heavy loads, especially on the M.1 and comparable roads, to limit the excessive dimensions which one sometimes sees?

As I said in my Answer, the police must always be notified of the movement of any load of this kind and, if the load exceeds the dimensions which I mentioned in my Answer, my right hon. Friend's Department has to be approached. I understand that it is an offence to fail to do that.

Would the hon. Gentleman consider insisting that all loads of an exceptional size or weight should be moved by rail wherever possible in the interests of road users and road services?

No, we are much more concerned with the interests of industry as a whole in this matter. Many of these loads are not susceptible to being moved by rail, or even by sea. Many can be moved only by road.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will introduce legislation to prevent exceptionally heavy and wide loads using main roads to the coast during weekends, and thus ease traffic congestion.

We already have direct control over very large loads and we keep them off busy roads at summer weekends as far as possible. The police also have wide powers to control the movement of large loads. We are now considering new regulations which would extend our own control over wide loads and increase the powers of the police.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that it is ludicrous to have these large and wide loads on the roads at week-ends, especially on Sundays, going down to the coast, when they are so close together that one cannot pass them for miles on end? It makes drivers impatient and increases the possibility of accidents. Is it not thoroughly unnecessary?

This is precisely why we have provided new regulations which, as I said in the Answer, we are considering with the very object of extending the Minister's control over the movement of these vehicles.

Will the hon. Member consult his right hon. Friend to see whether the time has not arrived when we should have a propaganda campaign emanating from his Department to induce firms to see that as many of these wide loads—I am not talking about extra large loads—as possible are carried by rail, so saving many accidents which cause injuries on our roads?

That sounds very simple, but I am afraid that it is not quite so easy when my right hon. Friend's responsibilities to all types of transport are considered.

asked the Minister of Transport when he expects to introduce his new regulations governing the movement of large loads by lorry.

As a result of the many representations we have received about these proposed new regulations we are now considering certain modifications of the proposals as circulated, in order to reduce the burden they would impose on industry, while maintaining their effectiveness. We intend to introduce the new regulations as soon as possible.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that I have in my hand a photograph of two lorries with the load carried between them weighing 96 tons and being 130 feet long? Throughout its journey it had to be escorted by police. Can the hon. Gentleman tell us who pays the police—the owners of the vehicle, or the local authorities?

Questions about the police force should normally be addressed to my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I believe that in this present type of case the charges made by the police are paid by the people who move the particular piece of machinery.

Is not the difficulty that it is not possible to convey some of these very large loads by any other means; in other words, they cannot be conveyed by rail because they are too wide?

This is perfectly true. As I said in reply to an earlier Question, some loads cannot physically be moved except by road because, for example, if they have to go through a tunnel and the tunnel is not wide enough we cannot widen the tunnel. That is one example, but a number of other factors come into it.

Will he take it from this side of the House that there is another aspect? When we talk of lorries and loads we talk also of the men who drive them. The hon. Gentleman speaks of regulations—will he say whether he has had consultations with the unions concerned?

I am fairly certain that the proposals to which I referred in my Answer for alterations in the Regulations will have been circulated to the trade unions as well as to the other organisations affected.

asked the Minister of Transport whether safety belts are fitted to all vehicles in the services or under the control of Departments.

Some official vehicles are already fitted with safety harness; the question of more general provision is under examination.

While thanking the Minister for that reply, may I ask him when all these vehicles will be fitted? Cannot the Government give a strong lead in this safety measure and, without delay, have all their vehicles fitted with this safety harness?

I cannot give an exact date. A great deal of experiment is needed not only to ensure that the harnesses are the most suitable type but also that the anchorage is good and whether they will be used in the vehicles. For example, where Post Office vans call on individual post offices it is unlikely that they will be used. Experiments are being carried out in all branches of the Government service.

What percentage of Service vehicles are fitted?

I cannot state without notice, but I have one myself.

asked the Minister of Transport what action he will take to ensure that motor driving schools provide competent instructors.

Provision for setting up a register of approved driving instructors is made in the Road Traffic Bill which was recently introduced in another place.

While I gratefully record that since I tabled this Question the Road Traffic Bill has been introduced to make this provision, may I ask the hon. Gentleman if he agrees that it is very necessary to deal with mushroom driving schools and incompetent instructors? If there is some delay in getting the Road Traffic Bill through in its present form, would it not perhaps be better to introduce separate legislation to deal with this particular abuse and get it on the Statute Book more quickly than the Road Traffic Bill is likely to get there?

No. I do not think that that is a procedure which will particularly commend itself to the House, especially in view of the congested state of the Parliamentary timetable at the moment. I think that we had better wait until the Bill comes before the House. We shall then look forward with interest to the hon. Gentleman's contributions.

asked the Minister of Transport, what statistical or other information he has about the efficacy of crash helmets in minimising serious accidents to motor-bicycle riders; and if he will introduce legislation to ensure that all crash helmets conform to a requisite standard.

A study by the Road Research Laboratory revealed that the wearing of a crash helmet reduced by 30 to 40 per cent. the chances of injury to that part of the head covered by the helmet. Under the Road Traffic Acts it is already an offence to offer for sale or hire a helmet that does not conform to the standard drawn up by the British Standards Institution.

Does the hon. Gentleman intend to bring in regulations to enforce the wearing of these helmets, seeing that they have been so valuable in saving injury and possibly life?

No, we do not think it is necessary to make this compulsory at this stage. We know that well over 60 per cent. of all male riders of motor cycles and as many as 76 per cent. of female riders wear helmets at the moment. This practice has been generally accepted, and I think we can carry on as we are for the time being.

Will my hon. Friend look again into this? Is it not a fact that crashes on motor cycles are one of the major causes of death of persons between the ages of 17 and 25? Why are we being so nice about this? Why cannot we get on with it?

It is not a question of being nice about it. The position is that we have made a British Standard. We have made it an offence to offer for sale or hire a helmet which does not comply with the British Standard. The majority of motor cyclists, for their own protection, already wear these helmets. It would be extremely difficult to enforce the wearing of these helmets—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"]—by all motor cyclists under all conditions at all times, and for these reasons we do not think it is worth introducing compulsion.

Does not the hon. Gentleman remember that on this matter there was quite a division of opinion when the issue was before the Committee on the Road Traffic Bill? Some hon. Members, on both sides of the Committee, thought it desirable to make compulsory regulations and others, on both sides, thought not. What is quite obvious is the desirability of stepping up the propaganda in order to try to induce more and more people to wear these helmets. Will the hon. Gentleman ask the road safety organisations who are conducting the summer campaign to emphasise this matter more than anything else during that campaign?

Yes, I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for drawing attention to the summer campaign. I understand that during one month of the campaign attention will be directed to motor cyclists, and I will certainly see that the point is well stressed.

I wish to give notice that owing to the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I shall raise the matter at the earliest opportunity on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Transport when he will make the appointment of the first chairman of the proposed Inland Waterways Authority.

I cannot say at present.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the urgency of the situation in the inland waterways today? When he does make an announcement will he give an assurance that the new chairman will be somebody either with commercial experience or with substantial waterways experience?

It will be a long time before the appointment is made, because until this House has passed legislation there will not be an Inland Waterways Authority to which a chairman can be appointed. But I am bound to say that I shall take all considerations into account—not only commercial knowledge and knowledge of waterways but the appropriate salary as well.

asked the Minister of Transport how much is now being spent on road safety organisation.

Expenditure from central government funds in this financial year will be approximately £123,000. In addition, expenditure by local authorities is likely to be approximately £480,000.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that this sum is not adequate? Would it not pay the nation in terms of lives saved if this sum were quadrupled?

On the question of road safety, a lot depends on local effort and initiative. Some of the voluntary workers in road safety have done extremely valuable work. It is not necessarily a matter of the money; it is a matter of voluntary service.

asked the Minister of Transport how many local authorities now employ road safety organisers.

Approximately 1,000 road safety committees have been set up by local authorities acting independently or jointly, and about 480 road safety officers are at present employed by them.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that all local authorities ought to have road safety organisers? Is he aware that in the Borough of Poole by this means the accident rate last year went down in comparison with the general trend in the country as a whole?

In some cases the road safety officers act for two local authorities; 480 road safety officers serve about 1,000 road safety committees, and their expertise is invaluable.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will take steps to implement the recommendations of the Departmental Committee on Ferries in Great Britain, which reported in 1948, relating to the Flixton and Irlam ferry over the Manchester Ship Canal.

We have no evidence that there is any need at present for mechanically propelled craft at this ferry, which is operated by the canal company.

Is my hon. Friend aware that this ferry joins two sections of classified road and that, when the canal was cut, a legal liability was placed upon the canal company to maintain a vehicle ferry? Is he aware that two recent attempts to take a vehicle over the ferry resulted in sixty-five minutes being taken to complete the journey in one case, while the other attempt had to be abandoned after three hours and twenty-five minutes?

That may well be, but my right hon. Friend has no responsibility in this matter. This ferry, as I said, is operated by the canal company, and in practice, I think, the position is that most vehicular traffic now goes by the alternative routes over the bridges at Barton High Level, which is a motorway, and the Barton Swing Bridge.

Is the Minister aware that many hundreds of the constituents of the hon. Member for Stretford (Sir S. Storey) and myself are today in some danger of not being able to travel to their places of employment because the canal company is not fulfilling the Act? Will he or his right hon. Friend agree to see the hon. Member and myself in order to discuss the matter?

Yes, Sir. Of course, both my right hon. Friend and I are always willing to see right hon. and hon. Members on problems of this kind.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the detour he suggests adds four miles to the journey and that it uses a motorway which is not available for mopeds or cattle and horses, for which there was a legal liability on the canal company to provide transport?

There is, of course, the other route, the Barton Swing Bridge—[HON. MEMBER: "Miles away. Ask the Minister."]—and a little further downstream there is the Warburton Bridge.

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that we should be very satisfied if he would consult his right hon. Friend?

I am delighted to hear the hon. Gentleman say that he will be satisfied if I consult my right hon. Friend.

Does the Minister realise that if the hon. Member for Stretford and I turned up at this ferry on horseback, the company would have to take us across, whereas people today trying to get to work in time are in some danger of not being able to do so?

I am sure that the whole House would like to see the hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friend on horseback.

asked the Minister of Transport what progress he has made in his study of London Transport omnibus services; and what action he has taken to improve conditions and minimise overcrowding

As I promised in my reply of 1st March to the hon. Member for Islington, East (Mr. Fletcher), I have continued to watch the situation carefully. There are now nearly 1,400 more men on the buses than at the end of October. The traffic improvement schemes which are being carried out will help buses as well as other vehicles. Also, I have asked the chairman of the London Travel Committee what more can be done to increase staggering of hours, which could bring about a very useful relief at the rush hours for passengers and London Transport alike.

I appreciate that there has been some improvement, but is there any kind of permanent or regular liaison between his Department and the London Transport Executive? Does he receive reports regularly, and does he have consultation particularly on matters affecting the Central Line serving my constituency and places farther afield?

Yes, Sir. Reports are received regularly by myself—I read them about every fortnight—from London Transport, and we consult the Executive regularly, too. I am glad to say that in the centre of London the buses have speeded up at certain points recently.

Is the Minister aware that what he has just said does not accord with the view of the busmen themselves, who recently presented a petition from 180,000 people of London asking for a public inquiry? If he has a good case, why does he worry about a public inquiry?

When the busmen presented their petition, conditions were different. They are very much better now.

Does not the Minister realise that conditions for the travelling public today are most unsatisfactory? Does not he think that it would produce good results if there were an independent inquiry into the whole matter of bus services in London?

No, I do not think so. There was an exhaustive inquiry by the Chambers Committee as recently as 1955.

asked the Minister of Transport if he is aware that land was purchased before the war at Forest Hall for the construction of a bridge south of the level crossing, that a child's life has been lost through a long hold-up of this level crossing, and that the stoppage of traffic at this spot is now serious; and if he will give an assurance that the Northumberland County Council will be given a grant for building this bridge for the year 1962–63.

As my right hon. Friend explained in his recent letter to the hon. Member, although there is delay at this level crossing, there are, unfortunately, many other bottlenecks where road improvements are needed even more urgently than at Forest Hall. We cannot therefore promise a grant for this scheme in the near future, but we shall keep it in mind for consideration as soon as funds permit.

I am sure the Minister will realise that this is an exceptional decision in so far as this land was bought twenty years ago for the special purpose and there has been twenty years increase of traffic. Businessmen and doctors are held up. We hope that the Minister will give the bridge some form of priority in future. Will he say that he will do so?

Northumberland County Council included this scheme in its proposed forward programme submitted last year. The priority the county council attached to it, however, will not secure a place for it in the first three years of the new classified roads programme we announced last year.

asked the Minister of Transport to what extent and for what reasons, completion of the new Staines bridge has been delayed; and what additional costs have been incurred as a result.

The contract period for construction of the Staines Bridge has been extended by three months because of flooding caused by abnormally bad weather last year. The extension of time does not of itself entitle the contractors to additional payment.

Does not the Minister recall that one of the main reasons why he did not accept the cheaper tender put in by the Alderton Construction Company was that the accepted tender would save time and that this bridge would be constructed in twenty-one months? Does he not realise that he has made a colossal blunder both in time and in money by rejecting the lowest tender and accepting the second lowest tender, with the deplorable result which we now face?

The weather recently has been the worst that the construction industry can remember this century. Extensions of time in the civil engineering and building industries were very common last year. There is no doubt that in the exposed industries the men cannot work as fast with such rainfall as we had last year.

asked the Minister of Transport (1) what improvement there has been in the accident figures on roads operating as clearways;

During the first six months of the scheme the number of personal injury accidents on the first set of roads designated as clearways was 133, compared with 145 in the corresponding six months before the scheme came into effect. I hope to designate further stretches of main roads as clearways this summer. The detailed arrangements are at present under consideration.

Is my right hon. Friend not aware that four people were killed and nine seriously injured in the last eleven months on roads in the North Riding because of stationary vehicles? Cannot we speed up the process for designating clearways?

As I have said, we are reviewing them all. The Yorkshire lengths of the A.1 are being considered for clearways. About 26 miles are being considered at the moment.

Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that the penalties for people who stop on these clearways are adequate?

I think the penalties are adequate but sometimes it is a little difficult to enforce the provisions, especially at holiday times, because of the large number of vehicles on the road and the small number of police available to look after them.

asked the Minister of Transport on what basis compensation is paid to householders where a road improvement scheme involves the construction of a skyway, such as that envisaged over the Coventry Road, Yardley, Birmingham.

The basis of compensation for property required for the actual road works would be the same as in ordinary highway schemes. Whether compensation would be payable in respect of other property would depend on the facts of each case, in the light of existing legislation.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that this is a unique scheme? Is he aware that since it was announced there has been a very serious depreciation in the value of residential property and that to compensate residents on the latter value is most unfair?

I am not altogether aware of the points which my hon. Friend has made. The broad position is that in cases where a compulsory purchase order had been made compensation would be assessed at the time of the notice to treat. How far the amount of compensation will be affected by what I may call the skyway element in this project is a difficult question which we cannot answer until the Birmingham Corporation's proposals have been studied in considerable detail.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary define what a skyway is?

Perhaps my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley (Mr. Cleaver) is the best authority to define a skyway, since it is his Question. I understand that it is an elevated roadway which the Birmingham Corporation wishes to build.

asked the Minister of Transport whether, in view of the fact that a double carriageway is adequate to meet the traffic needs on the Coventry Road, Birmingham, between "The Swan" and the city boundary, and that the proposed skyway is an uneconomical way of using public money, if he will order a public inquiry into the desirability of this project

My hon. Friend's Question is based on two suppositions which I cannot comment upon until we have had an opportunity of studying the detailed proposals of the Birmingham Corporation who are the highway authority for this road. It is too soon, therefore, to say whether a public inquiry should be held.

Is my hon. Friend aware that from estimates which have been made it appears that this project will cost at least £1,800,000 per mile? Is he aware also that very many of the residents consider that it will be a waste of money? Is he further aware that there is already an area by the road in which a double carriagway could be laid down? Will he look further into that possibility?

Of course, we shall have to look very much more closely into this project when we have fuller details. As I said in answer to the previous Question my hon. Friend asked, we are now awaiting the opportunity to have a full discussion with the Birmingham Corporation on this point

asked the Minister of Transport when he will be able to announce the result of the investigation made by the Road Research Laboratory into the present day use and value of pedestrian crossings.

A report by the Road Research Laboratory shows that the relationship between pedestrian accidents on and within 50 yards of pedestrian crossings and pedestrian accidents in built-up areas generally has hardly altered since 1952. However, the proportion of accidents actually on crossings increased between 1953 and 1959 whilst the proportion within 50 yards of a crossing decreased. I am disturbed by the increase of accidents on crossings and I am looking further into the matter in collaboration with the Road Research Laboratory.

Has my right hon. Friend yet been able to ascertain whether he intends either to allow more pedestrian crossings to be laid or less? Can he make any estimate?

No. I think that we should wait until we see what the Road Research Laboratory says. It issued its last Report a considerable time ago and it is now going into this question again.

asked the Minister of Transport what progress is being made with the improvements to High Street, Strood, which have been delayed owing to the widening of the railway bridge.

I have written to my hon. Friend explaining the position. The extension of the widening through the railway bridge will be put in hand as soon as possible. Negotiations between the authorities concerned are proceeding, and preparatory work is not being held up.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Is he aware how very eagerly everyone in Rochester and Strood await the end of this road scheme? Will he urge the railway authorities to proceed with all the speed they can and finish their share of this scheme?

Yes. The problem does not really arise in respect of the railways. We are now awaiting formal agreement with the B.T.C.—this is in hand—and an agreement with the Rochester Council to act as the agent authority, because normally the agent would be the Kent County Council.

asked the Minister of Transport how many enforcement officers are engaged in checking that firms are not causing their drivers to work for illegal and excessive hours.

The number of officers engaged on enforcement work of this kind varies to some extent from week to week. During the week ended 18th March, 1961, the number was 165.

Is not this entirely inadequate, since commercial vehicles have increased from 900,000 to 1,400,000 in ten years? If the Minister were there at the time, he could see drivers who have been working for eighteen hours nodding at the wheel or falling asleep Over their teacups in transport caf⃩s. Instead of checking the log books, which can be "cooked", would it not be better for enforcement officers to take the numbers of vehicles at key points on main roads?

The answer to the second part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question is that enforcement officers already do that. As to the first part of the supplementary question, although traffic has increased the number of enforcement officers has increased at an even greater rate. In March, 1959, there were 103. In March, 1960, there were 147. In March, 1961, there are 165, which is a 50 per cent. increase in two years.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that something very much more drastic is needed to safeguard the people who have to work these excessive hours? Does he not also agree that in spite of the enforcement officers, the fines which are imposed are absolutely negligible and encourage the owners of lorries to go on with this illegal practice?

Fines are not a question for me, and therefore I will not comment on them. We have increased the staff to a considerable extent and it is certainly making a greater impact on this sort of case than it was two years ago.

Does not this evidence of a further increase on the numbers of prosecutions that the right hon. Gentleman gave last week show that the situation is becoming alarming? What are the Minister's long-term plans for coping with it?

At a recent meeting, representations were made, which I promised to consider.

asked the Minister of Transport what was the outcome of his talks with the lorry drivers' union representatives on the excessive hours worked by some haulage firms.

I have nothing to add to the reply I gave to the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Mrs. Slater) on 22nd March.

Does not the Minister think that the cut sought by the men from eleven hours to ten hours a day is a modest one? Is he aware that ten hours is the maximum period on the Continent and in the United States, and does he not agree that it is quite long enough for a man, for safety's sake, to be in charge of a heavy lorry?

When I saw the trade union representatives they made certain points. I promised further investigation of two or three of those points, after which I promised to give the matter serious consideration.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will state the number of cricket fields, football grounds, hockey pitches, tennis courts, golf courses, swimming pools and other sports facilities which are to be destroyed or curtailed in the Ilkley Urban District Council area by the trunk road which it is planned to make through Wharfedale.

Because the line of the Ilkley by-pass established by statutory order would seriously affect recreational facilities in Ilkley, we are arranging for a survey to be made to see if a practicable alternative can be found.

asked the Minister of Transport when he expects to make a statement on the Report of the study he ordered into the question of tolls on motorways.

Soon after the Easter Recess.

Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate how many people are appalled that, in a modern age, there is a proposal to introduce tolls on motorways? Will he tell us, so that we may enjoy our holidays, how he can contemplate such a thing in this modern age? What is the reason for it?

No proposals have been made, but a study has taken place. The result of that study and the announcement of the Government will be made soon after the Easter Recess.

When considering this question, will my right hon. Friend regard tolls as a method of supplementing total road expenditure, so helping to relieve congestion on existing roads?

There are many aspects of this toll problem, some of which tend to favour tolls, and others tend to be against them, but I hope that when the Government announce their decision it will be welcome to the House.

Would it be useful to the right hon. Gentleman to know that if the final decision is in favour of tolls being imposed he will have very strong opposition from this side of the House?

I am grateful for that warning.

asked the Minister of Transport if he is yet in a position to announce a date for a public inquiry in connection with the objections to the proposed order for the closing of the highways within the Imber training area.

I am hopeful that a satisfactory settlement of a number of the objections to this proposed order will be reached shortly. I will then refer it together with any outstanding objections to the War Works Commission, and it will be for the Commission to fix the date of any inquiry it decides to hold before reporting to me.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that although there is no disposition in any responsible quarter to interfere with the proper needs of defence training, there is very great anxiety that rights of way that have existed for centuries may be permanently closed even if at some future date the defence services might give up the training area? Will he bear that in mind and understand that there is a great deal of anxiety on the subject?

I am aware that there is a great deal of anxiety on the subject, but I think that it is usual to hear at a public inquiry any objections that are not withdrawn, after which a report is made to me.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he has yet made a decision on the width required for the double carriageway between Newcastle, Wallsend and Tynemouth, to enable the county council to proceed with some of the work required.

The Joint Coast Road Committee have been told that dual 36 ft. carriageways may be provided.

asked the Minister of Transport how long the actual construction of the Chiswick flyover, the Hanger Lane underpass, and the Ace of Spades underpass on the Kingston by-pass took, respectively; and how long he anticipates the Hammersmith flyover will have taken to construct when it is completed.

The Chiswick flyover took two years ten months to complete, the tunnels of Hanger Lane underpass were completed in two years four months, and the Hook Road underpass was completed in one year nine months. I expect that the Hammersmith flyover will be completed one year ten months after the start of the work.

Are not these times much longer than the times taken to build underpasses and so on in many other countries, particularly in places like Brussels and Paris? Cannot something be done to speed things up?

It is really not possible to compare these jobs with each other or with jobs abroad. Civil engineering contracts always depend upon the nature of the soil and the nature of the work, and it is not an easy comparison to make.

asked the Minister of Transport what plans he has for increasing the number of signs giving guidance to pedestrians at traffic junctions in Central London.

Proposals for "Cross Now" signals at a number of junctions are being considered. Experiments involving control and guidance of pedestrians also are being worked out, but it is too soon to announce details.

asked the Minister of Transport what study he has made of the experience in the United States of America of diesel and diesel-electric motive power on railways with a view to deciding the motive power policy to adopt in this country.

I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer which I gave him on 17th March.

Is the Minister aware that that Answer was not satisfactory? Does he agree that in America a committee composed of expert engineering motive power men has conducted a thorough investigation into the matter and decided that electrification is the best mechanical motive power? If that is correct, should not the Minister be considering the same power?

These technical matters are primarily for the British Transport Commission rather than for the Ministry. There are varying views on the best method of traction on the railways. In some cases electrification is good, especially where there is very dense traffic, but if the traffic is light the capital expenditure involved in electrification might very well not be worth while.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will have an investigation made into the motive power which will be the most economical for British Railways.

No, Sir.

Is it correct that in the United States, Western Germany and France they have already conducted an investigation of the kind suggested? In view of that, should not Britain now be having another look at the matter in order that we may run our railways in the most economic manner?

The British Transport Commission has taken notice of all the experiments which have been carried out abroad.

asked the Minister of Transport whether, in view of the increasing efficiency of the inflatable type of lifejacket and the increasing use of this type by the Services, he will now permit the use of such apparatus by crews and passengers in ships of the merchant navy.

The specification for lifejackets to be carried in merchant ships laid down in the International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea, 1948, excludes the inflatable type. The revised Convention adopted at last year's conference in London, but not yet in force, includes an alternative specification for an inflatable type for the crews of ships, other than passenger ships and tankers. I am prepared to consider any design which will meet the specification.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that, as a sailing man, if I were a passenger in a liner and thought, as in fact I think, that the ordinary standard reversible lifejacket, if I were unconscious, would permit my head to flop in the water and might also be filled with kapok, which would mean that with oil on the water it might sink within an hour or two, I should think that we ought to adopt the up-to-date specification as laid down internationally? Has not the time come to revise these rather out-of-date provisions?

I want to make it clear that this new specification to which my hon. Friend refers is not laid down internationally. At the moment the kapok or similar substance must be enclosed in a P.V.C. envelope, which is impervious to oil. This international standard is not necessarily laid down only for the merchant navy and for people who know how to use this equipment, but also for passengers who are not used to putting on life-belts.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that this regulation about the covering of kapok with P.V.C. was issued by the Ministry of Transport two years ago? Secondly, will he tell me how many countries took part in this Convention and whether they all agreed?

I think that about 30 or 40 countries took part, and they nearly all agreed. It will come into force when it has been ratified by the Governments of 15 countries. It was quite a big Convention. The P.V.C. envelope has proved quite satisfactory for kapok or similar substances.

In view of the enterprise which the right hon. Gentleman has shown while Minister in seeing things for himself, may I ask whether he is sufficiently interested to see a demonstration which would clearly indicate how those lifejackets which are approved by the Ministry of Transport are antiquated compared with those of the inflatable type now available? Will he look for himself?

I am prepared to consider any design which will meet the specification.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will take steps to give financial assistance to those shipowners who place their orders with British shipbuilders.

No, Sir. I see no reason why the British shipbuilding industry should not be competitive with foreign firms for this type of business.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that since this Parliament commenced we have had nothing but words about what is to be done to help the British shipbuilding industry? Does not he agree that it is now time for some action? My Question suggests action which can be taken. Will he bear in mind that the tonnage at the moment on hand from foreign buyers represents about four months' work for the industry, while British shipowners are building all over the world? Would it not help the industry if he could do, as he can, something to help shipowners so that we can stimulate the shipbuilding industry?

If British shipowners were forced to buy a ship here in Britain at a higher price than foreign ship owners paid for their ships, eventually shipping in this country would cease to exist

That is nonsense.

asked the Minister of Transport what authorisation he has given for new capital constructions in ports and harbours in order to speed up the discharge of ships' cargoes.

In general my authority is not required for programmes of capital works except in ports for which the British Transport Commission are responsible. The approved investment programmes of the Commission included expenditure at ports of £5 million in 1961, £9 million in 1960, £6 million in 1959 and £5·6 million in 1958.

I fully recognise the good work which the Ministry is doing in regard to docks. Does he realise that there are many docks where modernisation is quite inadequate, with the result that the turn-round of shipping is slowed down, with an addition to costs? The size of these docks is preventing the building of larger ships to deal with larger cargoes. Can he not use his influence as Minister to encourage the local authorities concerned to engage in a new programme of bringing docks up to date to meet modern requirements?

Capital construction in ports is generally undertaken by virtue of powers granted by Parliament in private legislation. Most docks, such as those under the control of the Mersey Dock and Harbour Board and the Port of London Authority, are self-contained units and do not have to apply to me for capital expenditure.

asked the Minister of Transport why he will not take into account the degree of unemployment in an area when authorising the placing with a particular shipyard of the contract for the new Cunarder.

Government assistance has been limited to the minimum required to enable the Cunard Steam-Ship Company to order a ship which will be competitive in this highly subsidised trade. The ship will have to pay her way and I would not be justified in asking the company to accept any other than the best tender.

Has my right hon. Friend any ideas for giving a shot in the arm to other areas which are unsuccessful in obtaining this tender?

That is another Question altogether.

Will my right hon. Friend think about adopting this suggestion? Will he think particularly of those areas which face high unemployment in shipbuilding and have no alternative engineering employment for men unemployed?

If there is nothing between the best tenders, which is unlikely to happen in practice, preference is given to a firm in a development district listed under the Local Employment Act, 1960, or to a firm in Northern Ireland. All the areas which have been invited to tender are in such districts, except Swan Hunter and Vickers.

Will the Minister bear in mind that there is considerable insecurity, short-time working, and so on, in shipbuilding and ship-repairing on the Tyne? Will he confirm that the contract will be placed on purely commercial consideration?

That is what I have said.

asked the Minister of Transport what area per passenger has been provided for in the specification sent out in connection with tenders for the new Cunarder.

This is a matter for the Cunard Steam-ship Company, but I am informed that it has provided for an average of about 80 square feet of cabin space per passenger.

Is this not an excessively luxurious area for the British taxpayer to subsidise?

I do not think so. The Cunard Company had many factors to take into account, and if it had made the area very much smaller it would not have attracted the type of passenger who would pay the fare it wishes him to pay.

What accommodation will be provided for the crew? Has the right hon. Gentleman ever inspected some of the crew space in any of these large liners?

If the right hon. Gentleman will put a Question down, I will tell him exactly what the space is. I have inspected the crew quarters on both the "Queen Mary" and the "Queen Elizabeth".

asked the Minister of Transport what measures Her Majesty's Government are taking to discourage and reduce the amount of flag discrimination proposed and adopted by other maritime countries with whom the United Kingdom trades; and what has been the result of the talks held in Washington on this subject.

Her Majesty's Government takes every opportunity by means of diplomatic protest, in the negotiation of commercial treaties and in appropriate international discussions to discourage and reduce discrimination. I am now considering with the General Council of British Shipping whether it would be in our long-term interest to take further measures. So far as the Washington talks are concerned, I have nothing to add to the reply which I gave to the hon. and learned Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hector Hughes) on 1st March.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask whether he agrees that such practices distort the pattern of world shipping to the detriment of British shipping interests, and, in particular, cause loss to the industry's invisible exports?

I agree that discrimination can seriously harm this country, but if we are to take retaliatory measures we need to be absolutely certain that we correctly assess what the long-term results will be.

Would not the Minister agree that it is fantastic that the N.A.T.O. Powers, which are supposed to be joined to defend each other militarily, should, by their practices, be destroying each other economically? Ought not strong representations about this matter be made at N.A.T.O. conferences?

I do not think that a N.A.T.O. conference is the place to make these representations, but I do not disagree that strong representations should be made.

My right hon. Friend has referred to possible further measures. Can he indicate on what lines he is thinking?

The General Council of Shipping asked me to take general powers in the House of Commons for retaliatory measures, and then it could take specific steps against different countries. I asked the Council for examples both of the specific measures and the general powers it had in mind, and I am awaiting those.

asked the Minister of Transport what is the total amount of idle tonnage of British ocean-going vessels at the latest available date.

On 1st March, 61 ships of 1,600 gross tons and over registered in the United Kingdom, totalling 457,000 gross tons, were laid up for lack of employment. This amounts to less than 3 per cent. of the United Kingdom fleet.

Is not that serious, and is there any evidence of an improvement?

It is true that 3 per cent. is small, but even so it is serious. Nevertheless, there has been a reduction. In the autumn of 1959 it was 6 per cent.; now it is 3 per cent.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will make a further statement regarding a nuclear-powered merchant ship.

I will make a statement as soon as I can.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give a better assurance than that? Is he aware that there is a good deal of apprehension that we are rapidly losing ground in this branch of research, and a good deal of speculation as to what proposals we are making about European co-operation in these matters? We should have an early statement from the Minister to the House.

In my view, it is absolutely vital that we should make the correct decision rather than a hurried decision. This is a complex problem, and it is no good over-simplifying it.

Will my right hon. Friend give an assurance that there will not be any unnecessary questions of prestige venturing into this matter? What we really want is a commercial venture. Can he give an assurance that the Atomic Energy Authority is sufficiently charged with the importance of the matter?

I am quite certain that the Atomic Energy Authority, the shipowners, the shipbuilders and Lloyds Register, representatives of all of whom are on the committee, have those considerations in mind, but I think that it would be folly if this country, with its limited resources, were to dissipate them on something that is not likely to be economic in the near future.

When we do have this ship will the right hon. Gentleman bring it to Holy Loch and see that the other one is taken away?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that decisions have been taken in this matter? It is no good talking about the folly of making the wrong decision. Is the right hon. Gentleman saying that the Government have taken previous decisions which are wrong?

No, the Question is about this particular decision. Other decisions have been made, but this one has not been made and that is why the hon. Gentleman put his Question on the Order Paper.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will now make a statement on the interim report of the Sub-Committee of the Shipbuilding Advisory Committee.

The report will be published as soon as possible.

While appreciating the difficulties about this report, which is a report of the Sub-Committee of the main Committee, nevertheless, as this report is bound to call for some Government action, and the position of shipbuilding is deteriorating, may I ask the Minister to use his best offices to see that the report is published at any rate during the Easter Recess?

The printing has been put in hand already and publication is expected to be in about three weeks' time.

asked the Minister of Transport what steps he is taking to encourage imports into the United Kingdom in British ships, in view of the fact that more than half of such imports are now carried in foreign ships.

I do not consider that intervention by Her Majesty's Government in commercial transactions would be in the best interests of British shipping, nor have the General Council of British Shipping recommended action on these lines.

Is it not doubly undesirable that our ever-increasing imports should be carried in foreign ships? Will not my right hon. Friend consult with his right bon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade so that he can bear this in mind when concluding trade agreements?

I will bring up the topic when I discuss the matter with the Council of British Shipping, but I am bound to say that it is not one of their recommendations.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that the Government's policy relating to shipping and merchandise carried in shipping is detrimental to the shipping industry, and will he rectify it?

All the nationalist countries which are emerging, such as India, want their own fleets and insist on carrying in them. It would be very difficult if we were to discriminate, say, against Indian shipping.

When my right hon. Friend refers to conversations with the Chamber of Shipping, could he say where responsibility for this matter now lies? Is it with the Chamber of Shipping or with himself? If it is with himself, can he say when he will come to a conclusion on the matter?

We can only come to a conclusion when we have agreed.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware of the widespread concern in industry at the delays in the movement of cargoes through British ports; and what action he proposes to take to improve the position.