asked the Minister of Labour what statistics are kept by Her Majesty's Government of youths in technical training in Scotland; and what steps are taken to publicise this information.

Statistics kept by my Department show the numbers of youths who enter employment as apprentices or learners in skilled occupations. These figures are published annually in the Ministry of Labour Gazette.

While thanking the Minister for that comprehensive reply, may I ask if he realises that my purpose in putting the Question was to emphasise the importance of enabling youths, particularly school leavers, to plan their careers ahead so that they can fit into national productivity and exports with advantage to themselves and to the nation?

I am grateful to the hon. and learned Member and entirely agree with everything he has said.

asked the Minister of Labour how many Scottish employers have informed him of their intention to increase their training programmes so as to provide extra apprenticeships and other forms of training during the years 1961 to 1963; and what proportion this represents of the employers approached by the Industrial Training Council in this connection.

The detailed information for which the hon. Member asks is not available. But the hon. Member will be glad to hear that many firms are announcing their intention to increase their intake of apprentices.

Is it not rather regrettable that the right hon. Gentleman has not got this information? How does he expect to deal with this problem, which is exceedingly serious, if he has not got any information about it?

I honestly do not think that even the hon. Gentleman would say that there is much point in keeping statistics about intentions. I am much more interested in statistics about facts.

The Minister has not got those either.

Therefore, I do not think that statistics of the sort the hon. Gentleman asks for would be useful. However, my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary and myself in going round the country have found that immense interest is being taken in this, and I am convinced that satisfactory action will follow.

Did not the Industrial Training Council last year circulate large firms throughout the United Kingdom? Why cannot the Scottish aspect of this problem be extracted from the replies the Council received so that my hon. Friend can have an answer?

The trouble about that is that it was a very incomplete exercise because many people at that time were not prepared to say what their intentions were.

asked the Minister of Labour how many training development officers are working in Scotland under the auspices of the Industrial Training Council.

The Industrial Training Council's Training Advisory Service has been and will continue to be generally available to assist industries and individual firms in Scotland. In addition, from 1st May, the Council has appointed a training development officer based on Glasgow, who will work in Scotland.

Does the Minister consider that to be satisfactory—one officer only for Scotland as Scotland, plus the functioning Service as a whole? Does he not realise that these officers were intended to be especially concerned with the co-ordination of training in small firms, and is not Scotland especially backward in that regard? Will not he, therefore, try to do rather more?

It is important to realise that the general effort being made by the Industrial Training Council also includes a particular effort in Scotland. This extra officer is being trained to work in Scotland alone, and his efforts will supplement those already being made.

asked the Minister of Labour what is the estimated expenditure for the financial year 1961–62 by the Industrial Training Council for their work in connection with the expansion of industrial training in Scotland.

The work of the Industrial Training Council extends throughout Great Britain, and it is not possible to give separate information about Scotland.

But the Minister will surely remember his Answer to Question No. 21, asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Stirling and Falkirk Burghs (Mr. Malcolm MacPherson). The right hon. Gentleman then said that a special effort was being made in Scotland, and told us about the appointment of one additional training development officer. Are we to understand that the right hon. Gentleman cannot explain what is to happen there? Is he aware that for this purpose a predecessor of his arranged for a special grant of £75,000 to be spent over five years, that 40 per cent. of that time has gone and only 20 per cent. of the money has been spent, and that, as far as I can make out from the figures, the rate of expenditure in Scotland for this important job has been less than £1,000 a year?

As I told the hon. Gentleman, it is impossible to give separate figures for Scotland, but expenditure on this administrative side is, in fact, increasing.

asked the Minister of Labour what plans he has for providing courses of first year apprenticeship training at Government training centres in Scotland in trades other than engineering.

My officers are negotiating with the industry about a course in radio and television servicing at the Hillington Government Training Centre and I am hopeful that a class will be set up. In addition, consultations covering Great Britain are taking place with the heating and ventilating and electrical contracting industries.

Even so, is this not rather disappointing progress? Can the Minister say whether this arises from lack of interest among Scottish employers or from lack of initiative on the part of the Minister? Has he any other proposals in mind for the near future?

These are the proposals. In addition, as the hon. Gentleman knows, two new classes in engineering will be started this year.

asked the Minister of Labour, what steps are being taken in Scotland by the Industrial Training Council to promote group apprenticeship schemes among small and medium-sized firms.

The Industrial Training Council seeks to promote the expansion of all types of industrial training and will suggest the adoption of a group apprenticeship scheme where this is the appropriate course.

Are we to understand from the Minister that this one officer who has been appointed in Scotland has been engaged in this job or is now engaged in it, and can he say what success he has had with this group of employers? Will he bear in mind that this group of small and medium-sized employers are among the employers who are failing the Scottish nation? What drastic step does the right hon. Gentleman propose to take to remedy this defect?

The officer will not be appointed till 1st May. On the other hand, the work of the Industrial Training Council has been going on solidly and it is recommending to industries the particular courses in which it considers training is most appropriate. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that there is an important place for the small employer in these group apprenticeship training schemes. There is also the benefit, if they choose to use them, of training schemes such as we run at our own G.T.C.s, as well as the facilities which the Ministry of Education is making available. Using one of these three avenues of approach should solve the problem.

Would the Minister not agree that so far the Industrial Training Council has been singularly unsuccessful in getting group apprenticeship schemes started? Does he recall that four were begun in 1960? Will he say now whether such huge organisations as the Engineering Employers' Federation has withdrawn its opposition to this scheme and is now co-operating in it?

There is no doubt that we are all disappointed at the slowness of the start. On the other hand, there are signs that far greater interest is now being shown. One thing I can tell the hon. Gentleman is that in my trips to the regions, I have been impressed by the fact that everywhere more interest is being aroused, and I hope action will follow.

asked the Minister of Labour how many courses for engineering apprentices will be available at Government training centres in Scotland during 1961–62.

The present course at the Hillington Government Training Centre will be followed by two further courses in the autumn.

Is the Minister aware that the number of apprentices attending these courses is surprisingly low and that six months ago they numbered eleven? Can he say whether the variety of courses and the status of this training for higher skills are adequate to attract the apprentices who are looking for skill of a higher kind?

The hon. Gentleman must remember what is the object of the courses. It is a limited one—to provide small and medium-sized firms with a demonstration of the benefits of systematic training.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there will be 45,000 extra school leavers in Scotland during the next three years? Against that background does he not think that this reply and the replies to the previous Questions on this subject are hopelessly inadequate? Should there not be Government effort on a much bigger scale and quicker action because the extra school leavers start leaving at the end of the summer?

The hon. Gentleman must be careful in what he says. The trade unions and the employers have agreed that this is a responsibility which is theirs and which they are going to undertake. To denigrate their efforts in the middle of all this is a great mistake. I cannot guarantee what the results will be, but from what I have heard I think the results will be much better than some Members opposite appear to think.

Surely the Minister will appreciate that the grant-in-aid which is made available in respect of training development officers was conditional upon employers and industry contributing the same amount and that there has been a very unsatisfactory response?

The hon. Gentleman should realise that a number of employers and employing organisations have done this on their own.

asked the Minister of Labour the number of disabled persons registered as unemployed in Cardiff at the most convenient recent date; what progress has been made in reducing the number during the past year; and whether he will announce his plans for helping those disabled persons who have been registered for employment for over a year.

401 on 20th March, compared with 503 in March, 1960. The disabled have benefited considerably from the steady improvement in the local employment situation during the past year, and my disablement resettlement officers will continue to do their best to find work for those remaining unemployed, including the 120 persons who have been unemployed for over a year.

Whilst thanking the hon. Gentleman for the encouraging figures he has given, which indicate that there is a reduction, may I ask how long he expects it will be before he can reduce the length of unemployment of those who have been unemployed for over a year?

No, I am afraid I could not give the hon. Member any guess as to how long that will be, but it is quite clear that the employment situation in Cardiff is getting better week by week. I am very optimistic about the opportunities for those people to get employment in future.

Is there any proposal to set up a new Remploy factory in the Cardiff area, because more than anything else that would help to solve this problem?

No. there is no proposal to set up a new Remploy factory in the Cardiff area, but the question of an increase in the capitation grant for sheltered workshop employment is being actively considered at the moment.

asked the Minister of Labour what progress he has made towards settling the dispute on Merseyside in the ship-repairing industry, which has caused a stoppage for nearly two months; and whether he will make a statement.

My officers had discussions with representatives of the employers and the union on 29th March, but no mutually acceptable basis for a resumption of work could be found. The District Committee of the Confederation of Shipbuilding and Engineering Unions had an informal meeting with the Employers' Association on 13th April, but I am informed that no agreement was reached. My officers are keeping in close touch with the situation.

In view of the fact that this strike has been going on for so long and very little is known about it in the industrial field, except among those who are taking part in it, does the Minister not think that it has been a rather long time in which his Department has not taken steps to ensure that some negotiations take place on this matter? Is he aware of the difficulty that it is creating? Will the right hon. Gentleman look at the position? Is he aware that in Liverpool a number of men who are not taking part in the strike are unemployed as a result and have had their unemployment pay suspended, which has created great financial difficulties for them?

I agree with the hon. Lady. This strike, of course, has gone on for a very long time, but I assure her that my industrial relations officers have been in touch with the parties since the strike started. On a number of occasions they have offered to convene a joint meeting to try to get a basis for the resumption of work, but neither the employers nor the unions have at any time shown any desire for my intervention, and until there are signs of a change in this attitude I do not think that I can do much to help.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that a large number of men who are in no way personally involved in this dispute are out of work through absolutely no fault of their own and are denied unemployment benefit? Could he not see that justice is done to these people?

I will look at the difficulty. The strike has gone on for a very long time but, unfortunately, neither side has shown any sign of wishing me to intervene.

Could the right hon. Gentleman confirm that negotiating machinery has been exhausted long since in this dispute, and could he say whether he has approached the executives of the unions concerned to see whether arbitration or something of that sort would be acceptable?

I am in close touch and will do anything that can be helpful, but until there is a change of mind it is difficult to know what more we can do at this stage.

asked the Minister of Labour what were the numbers, respectively, of fatal and other reportable accidents in 1959 and 1960 at building operations and works of engineering construction.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will make a statement on the recent improvement in the pay structure of the Factory Inspectorate; and what improvement has occurred in the recruitment of inspectors arising from this.

In July, 1960, the pay of inspectors up to Class 1A was increased and I am circulating details in the OFFICIAL REPORT. Since then rates of

As the reply contains a number of figures, I am circulating particulars in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Would it not be fair to suggest that there has been a deterioration as between those two years? If that is so, would the Minister give us some reassurance and say that he will do everything to get as many inspectors as possible appointed and as frequent inspections as possible made and see that those who do inspect shall be as highly trained as possible?

Certainly the hon. Member's assumption is right. I am glad that he has called attention to it. There has been a regrettable increase in the number of accidents. I also agree with him that everything should be done to make people more aware of the need for greater safety consciousness. Apart from this, I have increased the number of my Inspectorate; I am also taking power to issue further regulations, but the more that can be done on both sides of the House to draw attention to the need for greater care in avoiding accidents the better.

May I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that reply and assure him that there are many others on both sides of the House who welcome this increase? Will the right hon. Gentleman pay particular attention to the fact that not only do we need a great increase in the number of inspectors, but an improvement in the qualifications they possess at the initial grade?

I will certainly take note of what the hon. Member says.

While welcoming that reply, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman what further steps are being taken to increase the numbers of the Factory Inspectorate, since the rising rate of

asked the Minister of Labour if he will state the details of the agreement reached between the Football League and the Professional Footballers' Association under the auspices of his Department.

As the text of the agreement is long, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Would the right hon. Gentleman kindly summarise that part of the agreement which deals with the retain and transfer system, and will he say whether at his Ministry a substantial modification of that system was agreed?

When the hon. Member sees the full text of the agreement, I think he will agree that probably three points are most important. Point (3) is that the player is to decide by 31st May whether or not to accept; Point (4) is that, if he does not accept, the club will retain and place him on the transfer list. Point (7), which I think is relevant, is that if by 31st August he is still not transferred, the Management Commit-

We should not place too much emphasis on numbers. I think that quality, as the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross) suggested, is very important. I do not want to dilute the quality. We must watch both these factors at the present time.

Will the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that in this matter his own good faith has been impugned, particularly by members of the Football League who suggested that Mr. Claro had what one can only call unilateral negotiations with the players? And as we who have taken part in these negotiations all know that these sort of charges are quite unwarranted, will the right hon. Gentleman deny them and say that his Department has acted as circumspectly in this matter of negotiations as it has always been its tradition to do?

My Department certainly acted in the traditional manner in this dispute, and I would not subscribe to any criticism of the way it carried out its duties.

asked the Minister of Labour what was the nature of the recent representations made to him by the Professional Footballers' Association concerning the operation of the agreement made between them and the Football League under the auspices of his department; and what was his reply.

No representations were made to me. My Department arranged a meeting on 16th March at which the Professional Footballers' Association expressed the view that the amendments which the Football League proposed to make to their Regulations did not fully implement the agreement of 18th January. The points raised by the Association were placed before the Extraordinary General Meeting of the League on 14th April, but I understand that it was decided at that meeting not to change the present transfer system.

In view of the fact that some misunderstanding has obviously arisen between the Football League and the Professional Footballers' Association, will not the right hon. Gentleman see that his Department brings the parties together as soon as possible with a view to some sensible arrangement for the future being made?

I think that the sensible thing would be for the parties to set up as soon as possible a joint negotiating committee under an independent chairman at which the remaining differences between them could be discussed. I will certainly give assistance with such a committee, but conciliation can be successful only when both parties are prepared to honour their agreements.

May we take it that it is the Minister's view that the Football League has gone back on the agreement on which it gave an undertaking in the Ministry? If that is so, will the right hon. Gentleman make it very clear in future negotiations that industrial peace is impossible unless both sides can be trusted to keep their word?

I do not want to aggravate the situation. It is not for my Ministry to interpret an agreement between the two parties, but as far as I and my departmental officers are concerned, we have no doubt that the Professional Footballers' Association is right in its contention, and the Football League was informed of our views in a letter dated 4th April.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the views he has just expressed are certainly the views held by my hon. Friends? Will he make it clear to the Football League that when the good offices of the Ministry of Labour are asked for we are entitled to expect that decisions arrived at there will be honoured by both sides, and that in an industry such as this, where the negotiating machinery is very young, it indeed strikes a mortal blow at confidence by the players if this kind of chicanery is to go on any more?

The feelings expressed by the hon. Gentleman are probably also shared by many of my hon. Friends. I do not want to say anything which will aggravate the situation, but what has been said in the House this afternoon makes it quite clear where we all stand in this matter.

asked the Minister of Labour if he is satisfied that adequate measures are being taken in the steel industry to reduce the rate of accidents, particularly amongst the younger workers, which reached a peak in the early part of last year.

This industry has been particularly active in its efforts to reduce accidents. Between 1956 and 1959 the accident frequency rate for all workers fell by 27 per cent. and the rate for young people by 53 per cent. Unfortunately, these rates show increases in 1960 of 6 per cent. and 30 per cent., respectively. This was due in part to increasing activity and to the considerable influx of new workers, but it is a disappointing reversal of the steady improvement previously achieved. I am satisfied that the industry is intensifying its efforts to reduce the number of these accidents.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will introduce legislation for a minimum wage policy to be enforceable by law.

Minimum wages are at present enforceable by law in agriculture and the industries where there are Wages Councils appointed under the Wages Councils Act. In other industries these matters are discussed by the joint negotiating body on which both sides are powerfully represented. I do not consider further legislation to enforce minimum wages is necessary or desirable.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the proposal contained in the Question is taken bodily from a statement made by his right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in a book he wrote several years ago? Is he repudiating the proposal made by his right hon. Friend?

I think that the right hon. Gentleman will know that time passes on. I am sure that he would be the first to say that he does not believe today everything that he believed, say, twenty years ago.

While expressing no opinion about the right hon. Gentleman's observation of a personal character, may I ask him to be good enough to consult his right hon. Friend to see if he can persuade him to revert to his original idea?

I am sure that note will be taken of the right hon. Gentleman's request.

asked the Minister of Labour what is the present level of unemployment in Northumberland and Durham; how this compares with 12 months ago; and how he expects the position to develop in the next 12 months.

There were 26,197 unemployed at 13th March, 1961, compared with 34,803 a year earlier. The improvement should continue over the next year, especially as it is estimated that about 6,000 new jobs will accrue in that period.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will make a statement on the Government's policy towards the recent Recommendation No. 112 of the International Labour Organisation concerning occupational health services in places of employment.

I would refer the hon. Member to the White Paper, Cmnd. 1318, which was laid before the House on 23rd March.

Will the hon. Gentleman acknowledge that the views which have often been expressed from this side of the House in favour of a comprehensive health service for industry are now supported by the recommendation of the I.L.O.? However, these ideas can be carried into effect only by a much more positive attitude on the part of the Government than that contained in the White Paper. Can he also tell the House, if he still relies on a voluntary approach, how long he thinks it will be before industry is effectively covered by occupational health services?

The hon. Gentleman will not expect me to agree with what he has said. I think that our present approach is the better one. The recommendation provides for the voluntary and progressive development of occupational health services. As he knows, a great deal is being done, and I hope that a great deal more will be done. I am quite convinced that we are on the right lines and are making the progress we need to make.

asked the Minister of Labour what steps are being taken to expand the Youth Employment Service in Edinburgh so as to deal adequately with the extra numbers of school-leavers this year and in the next few years.

The number of youth employment officers has increased by 3 or 50 per cent. since 1956. The future needs of the Service in the area are being kept under review.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary in fact doing anything now to meet the increasing demand for these services which is bound to arise during the next two years?

The increase in the number of young people reaching the age of 15 in the area between 1956 and 1962 is 41 per cent., and the increase in the number of youth employment officers is 50 per cent.

asked the Minister of Labour what steps are being taken to expand the Youth Employment Services in Aberdeen City and County so as to deal adequately with the extra numbers of school-leavers during each of the next five years, including 1961.

The number of youth employment officers in Aberdeen City has increased by 1 or 33 per cent. since 1956. In the County, where because of geographical difficulties the number of staff has for some time been generous in relation to the number of school-leavers, an additional part-time officer has been made available. The future needs of the service in the area are being kept under review.

Does the Parliamentary Secretary realise that he has, apparently inadvertently but unfortunately, narrowed the meaning of the word "expansion", which refers not only to numbers but also to kind? In these scientific days when the future of Britain is in the hands of youth, what expansion is taking place in the kind of employment which is offered to these educated and scientific youths?

The Question is about the expansion of the Youth Employment Services. We are responsible directly and indirectly for the numbers of youth employment officers. As I told the hon. and learned Gentleman, in Aberdeen City they have increased since 1956 by 33 per cent.

asked the Minister of Labour what steps are being taken to expand the Youth Employment Service in Renfrewshire so as to deal with the extra numbers of school leavers this year and in the next few years.

The number of youth employment officers has increased by 2, or 40 per cent., since 1956. The future needs of the Service in the area are being kept under review.

Is there any intention of trying to link up the work of the Youth Employment Service with possible potential developments either in the graving dock or in the motor-car factory in other parts of the county?

We consider that the number of youth employment officers in post at the moment is adequate to deal with all eventualities in the area.

asked the Minister of Labour what steps are being taken to expand the Youth Employment Service in Glasgow so as to deal adequately with the extra numbers of school leavers this year and in the next few years.

The Central Youth Employment Executive is at present in consultation with the education authority about the staffing of the Service. The intention of these talks is to ensure that the arrangements made will be fully adequate to deal with the additional number of school leavers.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that increased staff in Glasgow is now a matter of great urgency? Will he bear in mind that in its Report in 1958 the Sub-Committee of the Estimates Committee pointed out that there were no grounds for thinking that this was an extravagant system, and that it still had to face its greatest test? Will he give an assurance that he will render all assistance to Glasgow in its expansion of the Youth Employment Service?

Yes, it is a matter for the local authority, and I hope that there will be some increase. But, as I have said, the matter is under active consideration at the moment.

asked the Minister of Labour what steps are being taken to expand the Youth Employment Service in Ayrshire so as to deal adequately with the extra numbers of school leavers this year and in the next few years.

The number of youth employment officers has increased by 2, or 50 per cent. since 1956. The future needs of the Service in the area are being kept under review.

Is not the Parliamentary Secretary by this time aware that this fiddling answer about increasing percentages of officers is quite inadequate to meet the situation we have in these areas in Scotland? Does he not think that in areas of prolonged unemployment he ought to streamline the procedure and form some kind of committee of representatives of employers, trade unionists and his own Department in order to see that proper apprenticeships are taken up in the various trades in the area, instead of fiddling about with this answer about greater percentages of officers?

Order. Would those hon. Members who are not so situated as to be able to abstain from conversation be so kind as to conduct their conversations a little less loudly?

I disagree entirely with the hon. Member that the numbers I have given are inadequate. The Question relates to the expansion of the Youth Employment Service. The increase in the number of children reaching 15 in the area about which he asks—Ayrshire—is 34 per cent. between 1956 and 1962. and the number of youth employment officers has been increased by 50 per cent. We consider that to be adequate.

asked the Minister of Labour what steps are being taken to expand the Youth Employment Service in Dunbartonshire so as to deal adequately with the extra numbers of school leavers this year and in the next few years.

The Central Youth Employment Executive has made certain recommendations for increasing the number of advisory staff in the area. These are at present being considered by the authority.

I am extremely disappointed that, apparently, I do not have any percentage increase at all. Whilst, in fact, the other parts of Scotland had inadequate facilities before the percentage increases, those he has mentioned are not adequate at all. In view of this, would it not be better for the hon. Gentleman to ask the Central Office of the Tory Party to advise the industrialists in Scotland to provide money to enable this job to be done, rather than for it to be provided by the Central Office of the Tory Party for propaganda for the Tory Party?

An increase in the Youth Employment Service in Dunbartonshire is a matter for the local education authority, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman will persuade that authority to pay particular attention to the recommendations that have been made to it.

asked the Minister of Labour what steps are being taken to expand the Youth Employment Service in Lanarkshire so as to deal adequately with the extra numbers of school leavers this year and in the next few years.

The Central Youth Employment Executive has recommended increases in staff to take account of the additional number of school leavers.

Surely the Minister ought to be able to say what these increases are. Is he aware that the figures which he has already given today, when he takes credit for a 50 per cent. increase which might represent one officer, show that he assumes that the original number was adequate for the job? Is he not aware that we on this side of the House are convinced that we have never had an adequate service, and that in an area like Lanarkshire where there is so much unemployment the youth employment officers have a very heavy burden indeed? Will he say what reports they are giving to him of the very black spots that are blacker than those in Lanarkshire?

I will certainly agree with the hon. Lady that the service in Lanarkshire at present is understaffed. I am very glad that she has raised this question, and I hope that she will use her influence with the education authority to ensure that it accepts the proposals that the executive made to it.

asked the Minister of Labour what progress has been made with the establishment of a committee on the selection and training of supervisors in industry.

I have now appointed a committee which will hold its first meeting tomorrow, 18th April. The terms of reference are as follows:

"To review the progress made since the publication in 1954 of the Report of the Committee of Inquiry on the Training of Supervisors and the problems which have been encountered in organising effective training schemes; to consider arrangements for the selection of supervisors and to examine whether there is a need for a central organisation to further the development of supervisory training."

What does my right hon. Friend consider to be the main objectives of the Committee? Will he draw the Committee's attention to the fact that in some industries supervisors consistently receive less pay than those they are supposed to be supervising?

In answer to the first part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question, I have done this after consulting my National Joint Advisory Council. On this Council we are examining a number of problems affecting relations between management and employees. I personally believe that good supervision can help to improve relations on the shop floor. An up-to-date review will therefore be helpful to both sides of industry. As to the other question which my hon. Friend asked, employers will doubtless take note of what he said.

Will the Committee be able to consider the possible extension of the Ministry's facilities at Letchworth for training supervisors and whether the facilities could be made available to industry on a fee-paying basis?

I do not think there is any reason why the Committee, if it wishes, should not look at the point my hon. Friend has raised.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the past there has been pointed criticism about the very low pay which supervisors receive? Is it within the terms of reference of the Committee to recommend that supervisors should not be allowed to fall below a certain salary level?

I do not think that would be within the terms of reference of the Committee. On the other hand, publicity will be given to what the hon. Gentleman said as well as to what my hon. Friend said.

asked the Minister of Labour what was the average percentage of unemployment in the Greenock-Port Glasgow area in the years 1952 to 1955 inclusive; what was the figure in 1956 to 1959 inclusive; and what it was at the latest convenient date.

The percentage rates for 1952 to 1955 were 8·4, 8·0, 6·1, and 5·1; for 1956 to 1959, 5·4, 6·1,7·7, and 8·0; and on 10th April, 7·0.

Does the Minister realise that these figures, bad as they are, would be worse if they were not masked by emigration from the towns? Does he realise that it would be easy for the present Minister to break the record of his predecessor, and that one thing that could be considered would be to make representations to the Board of Trade, along with many others, to try to expand the advance factory programme?

I certainly agree with the hon. Member that this is one of the blackest unemployment spots in Scotland, and has been for many years. It has not shared in the general improvement in Scotland over the last twelve months. This is a development district, and we are doing all we can to stimulate industrial development there. There are 650 jobs in prospect locally and, in addition, work is expected to start in the next few months on the graving dock project which will provide 2,000 jobs during construction and 1,200 permanent jobs.

asked the Minister of Labour what steps are being taken in Scotland to deal adequately with the extra numbers of school leavers this year and in the next few years.

The Central Youth Employment Executive and local education authorities keep the staffing of the Youth Employment Service under close review in all areas in anticipation of increased work arising from the larger number of school-leavers. As a result, nineteen new posts have been created and filled since 1956. Other increases in strength are likely to be made soon, as a result of current consultations between the Executive and authorities.

While I recognise the attempt that the Minister is making to provide more staff to deal with school leavers, may I ask what attempt is being made to provide more employment for the school leaver? Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware, for example, that there are fewer people employed in Scotland today than there were five years ago, and that unemployment there is higher today than it was at that time? Is he aware that we in Scotland are completely dissatisfied with the ineffectiveness of the Local Employment Act to provide necessary employment for our young people? What does he intend to do about it?

I will accept quite a lot of what the hon. Gentleman says, but there has been a considerable improvement in Scotland over the last year, and we certainly hope that the improvement will continue.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will make a statement on the conclusions reached by the joint committee which has been considering industrial relations in the car industry.

The talks between the employers and trade unions on industrial relations in the motor industry are still proceeding and I am not yet, therefore, able to make a statement on the outcome.

asked the Minister of Labour (1) if he will give figures showing the length of unemployment in the Blyth constituency at the latest available date for males, females, and persons under 18 years of age, male and female, respectively;

On 10th April, the number of unemployed in the Bedlington Station, Blyth, and Seaton Delaval Exchange areas totalled 722 compared with 633 in April, 1959 and 784 in April, 1960. I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a table giving the detailed analysis of unemployment by duration at 13th March, 1961.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that these trends are rather alarming, and will he consult with his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade with a view to seeing that jobs are directed into this area in order to improve the position?

I assure the hon. Gentleman that my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade is continuing to keep the matter well under review.

In order to keep the matter in perspective for the region as a whole, did he not give an answer earlier showing that unemploy-

asked the Minister of Labour when it is intended to collect and to publish statistical and other information to show the analysed expenditure of families of representative income groups, such as was covered by the last Household Expenditure Inquiry.

Information of this type has been collected by the small scale continuing Family Expenditure Survey which commenced in 1957. It is hoped to publish material in respect of the first three years of this Survey later this year.

Can the right hon. Gentleman confirm that if the report is published it will be based on the same principles of collection so that the new report can be directly compared with the statistics in the last one?

Broadly, what the hon. Gentleman says is correct.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will make, and publish for the guidance of local authorities, hospital boards and all others concerned, a survey of the present and prospective supply over the next 10 years of persons of both sexes qualified, after completion of training, for employment as teachers, nurses, physiotherapists, almoners, health visitors, social workers of various kinds and in other occupations requiring similar qualifications and training.

Yes, that is so.

My right hon. Friend is consulting my right hon. Friends the Minister of Education and the Minister of Health and I will write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

Will the hon. Gentleman not agree that during wartime a manpower budget was a very valuable means of filling vacancies in scarce occupations of this type? Would not a manpower budget now be a more valuable contribution to the expansion of our social services than the Budget to which we are about to listen?

The right hon. Gentleman will appreciate that consultation will have to take place between my right hon. Friends the Ministers of Education and of Health.

asked the Minister of Labour how many posts for training development officers have now been created by the Industrial Training Council; how many officers are now employed; and in what parts of the country they are operating.

Twelve posts have been created and nine officers are now employed. A further officer will be taking up appointment on 1st May in Glasgow and a second on 1st August in Manchester.

What impact does the Minister think that twelve training officers will have on a nation with 50 million people in time to make a difference to the extra number of school leavers in the next three years? Is it not clear that a much bigger scale of effort is required?

The hon. Gentleman is ignoring the vast amount of extra effort which has been put into this campaign by both sides of industry. These are specialist training officers who are there to supplement what has already been done.

asked the Minister of Labour what consultations he has had with the Minister of Defence concerning plans for obtaining the necessary personnel should the Army not reach a strength of 165,000 by 31st December, 1962.

My right hon. Friend and I are naturally in close consultation on this matter.

May we take it that the plans that were referred to by the Minister of Defence in the debate on 28th February this year are well advanced?

All I can say is that the Government, of course, have plans in hand and are considering plans to deal with any situation which may arise. I hope that my hon. Friend will agree with me that this particular eventuality will not in fact arise.

Will the Minister tell us a little more about these consultations? Is be aware that very many young men in this country do not want conscription in any form?

I note what the hon. Member says.

asked the hon. Member for Holland with Boston, as Chairman of the Kitchen Committee, how many of the catering staff have suffered a reduction in wages as a result of changes in staff arrangements about which they were not consulted; and how many are leaving as a consequence of the new arrangements.

asked the hon. Member for Holland with Boston, as Chairman of the Kitchen Committee, why the recent changes of staff were made without adequate consultation with the persons concerned.

The recent rearrangement of staff duties which were minor in character affected only eight people. They were made for the purpose of endeavouring to improve the service given to Members and were made in the same way to similar rearrangements of duties which have been carried out on earlier, occasions. One worker will sustain a reduction of 5s. 6d. per week, whilst another will receive an increase of a similar amount. I regret that one worker decided to seek other employment before giving the new arrangements a fair trial.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that I am told that four members of the staff intend to leave as a result of these new arrangements, that no consultation with them took place, and that among those who feel aggrieved at their new working conditions are members of the staff who have worked in this building for as long as 15 years? Is it not very unsatisfactory that such drastic changes should take place without adequate consultation with the staff?

I cannot regard the changes involving eight people, which amounted really to no more than cross-posting, as being in any way drastic. As the hon. Lady is in touch with certain members of the staff, I hope that she will suggest that a proper approach is to the management through the staff representatives and that, above all, members of the staff affected will endeavour to give the new arrangements a fair trial.

Will the hon. Gentleman answer my hon. Friend's question? Was there any consultation?

It is extremely difficult to know where consultation begins and the duties of management end. I think that the proper steps were taken in this case by the manager, who is experienced, and what was done here exactly followed what was done on earlier occasions.

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that if the staff were in a trade union and organised, the Kitchen Committee would not get away with half of what it is doing in the staffing of its services?

The Kitchen Committee is in precisely the same relation with its staff as other departments in this House. I think that I speak for all members of the Committee, which is entirely non-party, when I say that it has three duties: first, to provide a service to Members; secondly, to provide good working conditions for its staff; and, thirdly, to do it without imposing an undue burden on the taxpayer.

Surely the hon. Gentleman realises that this House ought to set an example to the rest of the country on good industrial relations. Is he not aware that some of the women who have been affected give the most devoted service to Members in this House and that it was only because they were pushed too far that they consulted hon. Members? I ask the hon. Gentleman to examine this matter again and to see what steps he or his Committee can take to rectify the harm which has already been done.

I am sorry, but I cannot agree with the hon. Lady in any way. Some of the changes were made deliberately with a view to assisting those who found the long and extended hours difficult for them. The manager and I, and indeed all of us, are most eager to provide good working conditions for the staff, but I am bound to add that it is not particularly easy to run a department efficiently if at the moment anything is changed Questions arise in the House of Commons.

Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that the essential point is, not whether the members of the staff have an opportunity to put their grievances to the manager, but that they should have a right to be consulted before drastic changes are made? Will he not ensure in future that consultation takes place before such drastic rearrangement?