asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the total net value of the capital assets of the Scottish State Management Districts.

The latest book value of the fixed assets of the Scottish State Management Districts, as shown in the Annual Report of the State Management Districts for the year ended 31st March, 1960, is £222,211.

According to the Civil Estimates, the Scottish State Management Districts expect to make a profit of only £6,210. This, on a quick calculation, represents only 3 per cent. Does my hon. Friend feel that this is a fair return on the taxpayers' capital in these Districts, and would not he agree to selling them back to interests which could make a better return on these assets?

I think that on the general policy I cannot add anything to what my right hon. Friend said in an Adjournment debate in reply to the hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty (Mr. John MacLeod) in March of last year.

Is it not extraordinary that a Conservative Government Should tolerate these districts long after the original object of making State Management Districts has passed? Is it not an insult to these local authorities that they should be treated differently from other local authorities in Scotland?

That is a much wider question, and I do not think that I should add to what was said in the Adjournment debate.

Will the hon. Gentleman give an assurance that there will be no further sell-out to the brewers as in the case of the new towns?

Answer.

Again, this Question is a narrow one, but on general policy it would be quite wrong to add by question and answer to the statements made in the Adjournment debate.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many tax-free industrial and trading estates he has instituted in Scotland; where they are situated; what is the extent of each; and what results have been achieved during each of the last ten years in attracting to the relevant areas industry and employment.

None, Sir.

Does the Joint Under-Secretary realise that under the administration of the present Secretary of State for Scotland, one striking feature is the unfair and unequal distribution of industry and employment in Scotland to the neglect of the North and particularly the North-East? Will he pay attention to the idea in my Question with a view to rectifying that situation?

The hon. and learned Gentleman will be aware of the very extensive measures which have been taken to attract new industries to Scotland, and will join in the general hope Chat they will continue to be successful.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland on what date work commenced on the Vale of Leven Hospital; when it was completed; when the hospital was opened for use; and if satisfactory arrangements for outpatients have now been completed.

The main building work was begun in April, 1952, and the hospital was opened for use in December, 1955. The Regional Hospital Board is aware that the present accommodation for out-patients is not completely satisfactory, and intends to provide improved facilities as soon as prior demands on its resources allow.

Would the Secretary of State agree that this hospital was planned under the Labour Government, and was built under the Civil Defence Vote and not under the National Health Service at all? In view of this, was it not rather sharp practice that the Tory Party, in a political broadcast recently, claimed this as the only hospital that had been built under a Tory Government over the past ten years?

I should have to study the full implications of the hon. Member's timing and everything else before basing comment on such an interesting statement.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he expects to complete his consideration of the new contract with Messrs. MacBrayne under the provisions of the Highlands and Islands Shipping Services Act, 1960.

Negotiations are in progress with the company, but I cannot, at present, say when they will be completed.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that certain difficulties are arising in some directions as a result of uncertainty about the future of this contract, and could he say when anything definite is likely to be known?

I should be very grateful if the hon. Member will bring these difficulties to my notice. I would hope, if agreement is reached with the company, to be able to bring the matter before Parliament before the end of the year.

Cannot the Joint Under-Secretary say when he is likely to reach this agreement, and how long it will be before we know what has happened?

If agreement is reached with the company, I hope to bring the undertaking before Parliament, as I have explained, before the end of the year, when the present arrangement expires.

Which year?

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he has yet considered the letter, dated 7th April, 1961, from Mr. Alexander Stewart, written on behalf of the Educational Institute of Scotland and of 3,500 school teachers and sent to him by the hon. and learned Member for Aberdeen, North, intimating that in certain circumstances those school teachers will institute a one-week strike; and what action he will take to improve the conditions of Scottish school teachers.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the latest position regarding the impending strike of Scottish teachers.

The Glasgow teachers have threatened to strike unless, by 1st May, any suggestion of introducing non-graduate men teachers is abandoned and an increase in salaries acceptable to the profession has been negotiated.

I have already given an assurance that I will, if possible before the end of May, communicate to all the educational bodies concerned, for further discussion with them, any major proposals that may result from the consultations now going on. It would be wrong, however, to expect me to abandon discussion of any question of importance to the future of Scottish education before there has been time for a full expression of views and for adequate consideration.

Recommendations for new salary scales have reached me from the National Joint Council. They include a uniform percentage increase for all grades, which does not seem to be the best way of meeting the real needs of the situation. They also represent an increase of 18 per cent. on the cost of salaries fixed fifteen months ago and this is beyond what the Government can accept. However, I fully recognise that improved salaries are desirable, and I have informed the Council that, while I cannot give effect to the proposals submitted, I intend as soon as possible to put suggestions before them for their views.

I am sure that it will be realised that on neither of these questions would a precipitate decision be proper and I profoundly hope that the Glasgow teachers will not persist in strike action and thus prejudge two issues both of which require careful and objective consideration in the interests of Scottish education.

Does the Secretary of State realise that this has been delayed far too long, that the teachers of Scotland have done noble work to enable Britain to compete with her international rivals in this scientific age, and that he is frustrating Scotland and the children of Scotland from taking their proper part in competition with their foreign rivals? Will he rectify this situation at once?

I have made it clear that I am moving as fast as I possibly can on matters of great importance to the future of the whole of Scottish education, and I have the utmost desire, as I am sure the hon. and learned Gentleman has, that we should get the best possible working conditions, consistent with what is practicable, for the teaching profession.

Is the Secretary of State aware that his reply on the salaries aspect of this question will be considered disastrous, and that he ought to have shown his spirit of good will and conciliation by accepting the recommendations of the National Joint Council without qualification and with the same speed as was shown by the Government in the case of the recommendations about police pay?

I have noted what the hon. Member has said. If he will study my Answer, he will see that we are working as fast as we can on a very difficult and complex problem. I want to make it absolutely clear that the Government have been by no means unsympathetic on the question of teachers' salaries. In the last five years there have been four increases, with the result that average earnings have risen by practically half—49 per cent.—since the beginning of 1956. We are approaching this problem in the same spirit as we approached past ones.

Can my right hon. Friend say when he received the recommendations of the National Joint Council? Is he aware of the widespread feeling which there is in Scotland that the threat of a strike in this noble profession is doing great harm to the honour in which the teachers are held, and is acting as a remarkably bad example to the children under their care?

Is it?

In answer to the first part of that supplementary question, I received the recommendations, I think, on Monday a week ago. I can give my hon. Friend the exact date, but I have not got it before me. On the second part of his supplementary question, I do not want to make any comments on the threatened strike except to say that I profoundly hope that it will not take place.

Is the Secretary of State aware that the matter which is of the greatest concern to teachers in Scotland is the suggestion that non-graduate males may be recruited for the teaching of general subjects? Why on earth is he unable to give an emphatic reply to the teachers that he has no intention of introducing this alteration? Has he seriously considered opening the door to non-graduate teachers in Scotland?

I tried to make it clear in my original reply and in a previous debate in the House that this is a matter which requires the most careful consideration. There are a large number of bodies involved in consultations on it, and I do not feel that I should agree to stop all discussions until we know what are the views of all concerned.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will ensure, in the forthcoming training regulations at present under consideration, that there is thorough reconsideration of that section of the regulations dealing with the teachers of technical subjects in secondary schools.

Yes, Sir. This is one of the many questions which are being considered in the review of the Regulations.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for the promise implied in his reply. Will he bear in mind, however, that, apart from the important question of dilution, there are other important considerations involved in the regulations at present under consideration? Will he remember that, since the First World War, there has not been any substantial change in the regulations affecting teachers of technical subjects? Will he ensure that in the new regulations there is a revolutionary change of attitude towards this important subject in our secondary schools?

I entirely agree with what the hon. Gentleman says about the great importance of getting the regulations carefully examined. I assure him that all the considerations which he has put forward will be borne in mind.

I am sure that many hon. Members will look with great favour on any measure which raises the status of technical education. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we regard the technical teachers as having held an inferior status for far too long? We think that this is quite wrong.

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that public expression of view.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what estimate he has made of the additional school accommodation and additional number of teachers which will be necessary in the Dunoon area, arising from the large number of American naval forces and their families now to be resident in the area.

I understand from Argyllshire Education Authority that three or four additional primary classrooms and about six additional teachers will be required.

The hon. Gentleman will know that there is a shortage of school accommodation in Scotland and an acute shortage of teachers. Does not he think that representations should be made to the American authorities pointing out that, as this is a purely American base, they ought to provide the accommodation and the teachers? Can he say what cost will fall on the local rates levied by Argyll County Council as a result of the provision to which he has referred?

To date, we have received no representations from the local authority about this matter. The cost will range from about £10,000 a year, provided most of the children are fitted into existing schools, up to possibly £30,000 a year if the children are concentrated in one place and additional accommodation has to be provided.

Will the hon. Gentleman assure the Americans that, so long as these sailors are within the boundaries of Scotland, they and their children will receive the best Scottish hospitality as is our tradition?

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that expression of view. I am sure that it is the wish of everyone in Scotland that our reputation for hospitality should not be tarnished.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the question of hospitality does not arise? What I am concerned about is the matter which was discussed in the Argyll County Council Education Committee, namely, the possibility of added cost falling on the rates. The introduction of the question of hospitality is a red herring and something that we all despise.

We have to date received no representations from the local authority on this subject.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what estimate he has made of the additional housing facilities which will be required in the Dunoon area, arising from the basing of a large number of American naval ratings and their families in that area.

No additional housing facilities are likely to be required. Those American naval personnel who may wish to take up residence ashore with their families make their own arrangements to secure furnished accommodation. The remainder—and they comprise the substantial majority—will, of course, be accommodated afloat on the depot ship "Proteus".

While we are delighted that the families will receive all the hospitality and accommodation in the Dunoon area that is necessary, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is aware that this is a popular and attractive tourist centre? If the existing accommodation will be needed for another 400 families, then a necessary lung for people living in Glasgow who need a cheap holiday not far from their homes will be impinged on. I think that some regard should be paid to that point.

The hon. Gentleman may not realise that this matter was discussed with the local authorities, who are satisfied that the demand will be marginal in relation to the total accommodation available in the holiday towns within reasonable proximity of the Holy Loch.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is satisfied with the present level of recruitment to the fire service in Scotland; and if he will make a statement.

I understand that there is no serious recruiting problem in Soottish fire brigades at the present time.

We are glad to hear that. Nevertheless, will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that there is considerable dissatisfaction among fire service employees, and, indeed, among other public service employees, about their present rates of pay? In view of the very great importance of maintaining a proper standard of recruitment in the fire service, will he bear that very much in mind when proposals are put to the Secretary of State for Scotland and to the Home Secretary for an inquiry into fire service pay and conditions?

We will bear that matter in mind, but the hon. Gentleman will realise that the question of pay is a matter for decision by the National Joint Council for the local authorities fire brigades.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what progress has been made in the provision of the second extension to the Victoria Hospital, Kirkcaldy.

The sketch plans for this project have been completed and are at present with my Department for approval.

Does the right hon. Gentleman remember that he said in December, 1959, that work on this extension would be started in 1961? Is he aware that there is a tremendous shortage of geriatric beds in the Kirkcaldy district? Will he, therefore, do his utmost to ensure that work on this extension is started this year and that it is completed with all possible speed?

I sometimes hesitate to remember what I said in 1959, but I realise that at that time I gave a date for starting which was six months earlier than is likely to be achieved. I am advised that there is a good chance that, by adopting revised methods for contracting, the finishing date will not be later than I have already forecast.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he pro poses to designate any stretches of main roads in Scotland as clearways.

Yes, Sir. My right hon. Friend is now consulting the local authorities concerned about the possibility of making part of the Edinburgh-Glasgow trunk road a clearway.

Is my hon. Friend aware that that reply will win widespread approval from many motorists in Scotland? Is he also aware that, when clearways were first introduced in England and Wales, the accident rate was reduced by 9 per cent.? Will he, therefore, push on with the creation of clearways on other roads in Scotland?

The local authorities have power to impose restrictions of the clearway type on classified roads. We are considering the possibility of having clearways on other trunk roads in Scotland. However, my hon. Friend must realise that where there is much development beside a road this means of keeping traffic moving is not suitable.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what effect he estimates will result in respect of the distribution of the Exchequer equalisation grant from the revaluation of property in Scotland.

I hope to be able to issue first estimates of the equalisation grant for 1961–62 to local authorities by the middle of May. I am afraid that I cannot make any statement meanwhile.

Surely the Secretary of State should be in a position to make an interim assessment of how local authorities will be affected. He will appreciate that this is an important matter from the point of view of municipal treasurers.

I realise the importance of it. I have studied the matter, but I think that we must await the figures to which I have referred.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he is taking to clarify public understanding about the origins and effect of, and responsibility for, revaluation.

I think that it is generally understood that the revaluation has been carried out in pursuance of the Valuation and Rating (Scotland) Act, 1956, with the object of placing rateable values on a uniform basis throughout Scotland. Advice to ratepayers on their personal position has been given in the Press, in B.B.C. programmes, by leaflets issued by some local authorities and in Ministerial speeches.

Surely the right hon. Gentleman appreciates that the receipt of these revaluation notices in Scotland has led to doubt, disgruntlement and even despair, much of it due to misunderstanding? This has been visited on the heads of local authorities which have nothing to do with it. As this is a Parliamentary matter for which the right hon. Gentleman has direct responsibility, will not he take it upon himself to resolve all these doubts and assure the people of Scotland that this is not something that is due to the whims of the local authorities?

I was under the firm impression that all these bricks were landing on my head.

The right hon. Gentleman drops them.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that this is a very unfortunate moment for this extremely steep increase in the valuation of shipyards? It has fallen on an industry which is very depressed. I agree that the Government must take responsibility for the timing of this step which will affect the industry severely.

The timing of revaluation was determined by an Act which was passed several years ago. It is being done as quickly as possible, in view of the difficulties. I am aware of certain problems, but I think that we must await the final outcome before we can form a view of the matter.

Is the Secretary of State aware that much of the good work done by some local authorities in publishing these leaflets has been undone by the Ministerial speeches to which he has referred? Will he take a leaf out of the book of the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance who is always sending us leaflets and booklets explaining the provisions of the National Insurance Acts which are also available to the public? Will he undertake responsibility for publishing a leaflet which will be distributed in large numbers to all local authorities in Scotland so that the whole of Scotland might receive responsible and reliable information from the right quarter?

Some time ago I discussed with local authorities the possibility of their sending these leaflets to the public, which would have been the right way to do it. In some cases they have done so, but not in as many cases as I had hoped. I will consider what the hon. Gentleman has said.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what arrangements exist for bringing a convicted person serving a prison sentence into contact with members of the legal profession who would be willing to act for him without payment in a case where there may be reason to suppose that a miscarriage of justice has occurred.

A prisoner, whose right of appeal has been exhausted and who believes that facts which have subsequently come to light reveal a miscarriage of justice, may submit these facts to my right hon. Friend so that he may consider whether these are grounds for recommending the exercise of the Royal Prerogative or for referring the case to the High Court. If such prisoner desires a solicitor to prepare his case he may peitition my right hon. Friend who may permit an approach to the solicitor who previously acted in the case or to the local agent for the poor.

That is simply evading the Question. The hon. Member knows that, because correspondence has taken place between the Secretary of State and myself on this matter. I hope that it is permissible to say this: in view of that correspondence, will the right hon. Gentleman agree to create a panel of those members of the legal profession who are willing to take up these cases and to make that panel as widely known as possible for the benefit of relatives and others? Will he do that, in view of the fact that wrongful conviction and wrongful imprisonment still take place, despite all the appeals and reviews? Will the right hon. Gentleman consider that point?

It would be considered. The correspondence to which the hon. Member referred related to the present arrangements for the representation of people of inadequate means. That is the point with which I dealt in the reply.

It has nothing to do with that.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will give an estimate of the financial expenditure likely to be incurred by the local authorities, particularly in respect of police, education and housing, in the neighbourhood of the Holy Loch as a result of the Polaris base being established there.

The likely additional expenditure is: police, nil; education, between £10,000 and £30,000 a year depending on whether additional accommodation is needed; and housing, nil.

Can the Minister give any reason why the local authorities in this area should be penalised as a result of this new activity in their area? Does he not think that it should be a national charge? Is he aware of the statement made recently by the captain of the "Proteus" that billions of dollars were being saved by the base being there? Does he not think that it would be reasonable to claim some of the billions of dollars for the expenditure which is involved for the local authorities?

If the local authority feels that it has special difficulties over this matter it can make representations to us. To date, we have received no such representations.

To complete the picture, will not the Minister also inform the House, apart from the defence benefits of the base, of the commercial and economic benefits to the area? We ought to know that before we reach a conclusion.

In order fully to complete the picture, will the hon. Member also consider the danger created by the fact that it has been recently revealed that this weapon is still not fully tested?

On a point of order. Are we to understand, Mr. Speaker, that you are opening the floodgates in order that we may all join in?

I like to hear South Wales about every topic, but the last supplementary question was out of order.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many members of the Crofters Commission and how many assessors have had practical crofting experience.

One member of the Commission is a crofter and at least 48 of the 66 assessors are, or have been, crofters.

Is the hon. Member aware that there is a widespread feeling in the crofting areas that the Commission and the assessors are not sufficiently close to and sufficiently acquainted with the conditions to do the job which he expects them to do?

I know that the hon. Member has views about this, but my right hon. Friend has carefully complied with the statutory requirements in making his appointments.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will call for a report from the local authority with regard to the need for additional police in the Dunoon district arising from the basing of the "Proteus" and other United States vessels in the Holy Loch.

No, Sir. But, if the police authority applies for an increase in establishment, my right hon. Friend will consider its application sympathetically.

Is not the hon. Member aware that extra police have been drafted into the Dunoon area? From where did the application for these extra police come? How much of the cost of maintaining these police will fall on the local rates? Does the hon. Gentleman realise that that is an important question, because of the complaints about high rates in Scotland?

As I indicated in reply to a previous Question, additional expenditure on the police is nil. It is for the police authority in the first place to consider whether the extra duties falling on the police require additional strength. To date no application has been made for additional assistance.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that basket manufacturers in Bristol were not invited by the Rural Industries Bureau to submit a tender for a contract on behalf of the Government and that the contract has now been placed abroad; and, in view of the fact that the Bureau receives a grant of public money, if he will take steps to ensure that in future cases all manufacturers are given an opportunity to tender.

The hon. Gentleman may be under some misapprehension. While it is true that the Rural Industries Bureau received an annual grant from the Development Fund, it does not play any part in the placing of Government contracts.

But if the Bureau receives a grant from the Government, is it not desirable that every person connected with the industry should be consulted before a contract is sent abroad?

The hon. Member may be under some misapprehension as to what the Rural Industries Bureau does. The Bureau gives advice to craftsmen and small firms employing fewer than twenty skilled persons in rural areas. It plays no part in the placing of Government contracts.

The Bureau invited applications for contracts from various people in Bristol and let some of them, but apparently this contract was not accepted and was given to someone on the Continent by the Bureau.

If necessary we can pursue this by correspondence. My information is that Bristol is not in an area served by the Bureau but that recently, in response to an inquiry from a Bristol firm, the Bureau offered to give such help as it could give, because it had some experience of the basket-making trade. The firm was seeking a contract then being let by the War Office, to whom the firm were referred by the Bureau. That is my information, but if the hon. Member wishes to pursue this matter by correspondence I will take account of what he says.

asked the Secretary to the Treasury if he will establish an Income Tax office at Spennymoor.

No. The present arrangements appear to be satisfactory.

Has the hon. Member given consideration to the fact that the population in Spennymoor and the surrounding district is large enough to justify a tax office as long as tax offices exist? Does he not realise that if there are tax problems to talk over, people in Spennymoor must travel to Bishop Auckland, which is a considerable distance? In view of this, and also in view of the fact that the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance thinks it worth while to have an office there, why should we not have a tax office?

I am told that the average tax office in an area such as this deals with 35,000 to 40,000 taxpayers. In Spennymoor there are about 12,000 taxpayers. Any tax office there would be very small indeed compared with the average of the country. I have no evidence of hardship or delay resulting from the present arrangements, but if the hon. Member knows of any such case I shall be glad to look into it, if he sends me the details.

asked the President of the Board of Trade what is the current weekly rate of import of eggs from Poland.

I regret that weekly figures are not available. Imports of eggs in shell from Poland in February, 1961, the latest month for which figures are available, were 2·4 million dozen.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that these figures show a 400 per cent. increase over the level of the previous year, and that the indications are that the present level is even higher? As it appears that the anti-dumping legislation at present on the Statute Book is not satisfactory to deal with this problem, will he ask his right hon. Friend to introduce legislation to deal with this and similar problems?

We have no evidence to show that these imports have had a significant effect on the price of home-produced eggs and we do not see that there is any need yet to take any action, but of course we shall be glad to hear whatever is said to us.

How much of the increase in the importation has been caused by the restrictive policy of the Six in not allowing imports into the Common Market?

We are not yet fully aware why the increase has taken place, and there is not sufficient evidence to show whether it is a continuing trend or only a temporary phenomenon.

Surely my right hon. Friend is aware that the producers' price has fallen by 6d. per dozen as a result of the imports of Polish and Rumanian eggs?

Matters relating to the home price of eggs are for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture.

asked the President of the Board of Trade what inquiries have been made concerning the tenancy of an empty Board of Trade factory at Stockton-on-Tees since 7th March, 1961.

One firm has made an inquiry about this factory since 7th March.

As this factory has been standing idle for some months, and looks like standing idle for many months ahead, will the right hon. Gentleman consider, as a last resource, selling it if he cannot lease it?

I should have to look into that suggestion. We are trying to find a tenant as vigorously as we can.

asked the President of the Board of Trade if, in view of the need for continuing imports of disease-free meat, preferably from Commonwealth and European Free Trade Area countries, he will reconsider the import duty on Danish beef and veal in order to bring it into line with the reduction of duty on Danish bacon.

No, Sir.

In view of the fact that we have to import beef and veal from abroad, would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that this tariff is not in keeping with the spirit and the intention of the European Free Trade Association? Would not he bear in mind that this beef is not subject to foot-and-mouth disease, since the Danes give guarantees against it, and that nobody is benefiting from this tariff, while the consumers are not getting the meat at the price at which they could get it?

We have no evidence to show that the present tariff is any obstacle to the import of this beef and veal. Bacon was covered by a special arrangement between Britain and Denmark under the E.F.T.A. Agreement, and we do not think it appropriate to extend that arrangement to other agricultural products.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that the best way of getting disease-free supplies of beef and veal is to produce them at home? As the Danes are not traditional suppliers of beef and veal to this country in any quantity, will not he take action on those lines?

I will take note of what my hon. Friend has said.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science if he will create an organisation to conduct basic research into the problems of conservation and long-term utilisation of water supplies.

The Department of Scientific and Industrial Research has set up a Committee on Hydrological Research. I will circulate the terms of reference and membership in the OFFICIAL REPORT. The Committee has already held its first meeting.

In view of the long record of lack of imagination and enterprise by the Ministries of Agriculture and Local Government in this matter, can the hon. Member assure us that neither of these Departments will be allowed to interfere with what is a basic research project?

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the Ministers in charge of those Departments are co-operating fully, as are a large number of other bodies which, as he will see from the OFFICIAL REPORT, are represented on this Committee.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that a committee of the Central Advisory Water Committee is already going into a good deal of this matter? Will he ensure that the new Committee will work closely with it?

The aim of this new Committee, I can assure my hon. Friend, is not to duplicate any work already being done, and it is beginning by surveying and assessing what current research is being carried on in order to see where the gaps are.

asked the Minister of Works what plans he has prepared for promoting the attractions and amenities during the summer season for visitors to ancient monuments within the care of his Department.

The Departmental Committee, under the Chairmanship of my hon. Friend, the Parliamentary Secretary, has already done a great deal by providing new or improved facilities, new publications, and publicity. Further schemes are in hand, for operation this summer and thereafter. An exhibition of publications about ancient monuments and other tourist attractions is to be mounted in conjunction with Her Majesty's Stationery Office at Charing Cross Underground Station in July.

Will the Minister bear in mind the specific recommendation of the Select Committee that provision for refreshment should be made at many more of these monuments?

Yes, indeed.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs, how many local authorities compost dustbin refuse and sludge; and what action he is taking to encourage local authorities to introduce local schemes either individually or in co-operation with neighbouring authorities.

One local authority composts domestic refuse with sewage sludge, and my right hon. Friend has given loan sanction for a scheme put forward by another local authority for composting refuse alone.

In answer to the second part of the Question, more information is needed about the economics of the process before any general guidance to local authorities can be given, but my right hon. Friend is always ready to discuss proposals if it appears that the local disposal system is a suitable one for the introduction of composting plant.

Does the hon. Gentleman appreciate that the composting of refuse and sludge could be said to be the modern equivalent of Mr. Gladstone's candle ends in terms of saving public money, and that it is also increasingly in demand as an organic soil conditioner? In view of this double function, would not he at least inform local authorities of the possibilities of this very desirable activity?

We are seeking evidence and will watch carefully the experiments now in progress. There are considerable problems involved here, however. The bulk of the refuse still has to be disposed of normally, and a use has to be found for the product of which the hon. Lady speaks.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will state the public authority or private funds to which the household victims of the recent flooding in Hull should apply for financial assistance to make good the damage and expense which they incurred to their goods and chattels.

This was a case of flooding from the sea, not the same as the recent flooding from torrential rains which, in the exceptional circumstances, the Government decided should be assisted from Exchequer funds. My right hon. Friend cannot accept the implication in the Question that, apart from insurance which householders themselves provide, there must be some fund to which they can automatically turn for assistance, regardless of their other means. However, he understands that in this case a local flood relief fund, which was established some years ago, will assist.

Last year, after the rain floods, householders flooded out for the first time received help from Government sources. Will the hon. Gentleman therefore consider granting compensation from Government funds to those Hull householders who are regularly flooded out at every exceptionally high tide because wharf owners will not improve deficient wharfs? Insurance companies will not provide cover for these householders.

These are matters in which the local authority may be able to help in some way. In any case, a local relief fund is being used in this instance.

Will the hon. Gentleman tell us why the Government are suddenly drawing this distinction between fresh water and salt water? A few years ago, when we had the formidable floods owing to the breaking of the sea wall at Canvey Island, the Government accepted responsibility for that exceptional disaster.

The Government have to consider each situation on its merits.

Does not this emphasise the desirability of what we on this side of the House have often urged—the existence of a national fund to help the victims of disaster, without the drawing of these nice distinctions between one kind of disaster and another? If people's homes are flooded, then it is little consolation to them to be told that it has been done with salt water instead of fresh water.

My right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has said that this question is being reviewed by the Government. He promised a report to the House after the work as a result of the floods is finished.

Why are the merits of flooding from rain water so much greater, in the eyes of the Government, than flooding by salt water? The hon. Gentleman must explain the Government's view of this. A categorical statement that the Government will help with rain water but not with sea water is ridiculous.

We have to take into account the predictability of occurrences. If rain is torrential, or the sea rises as it does only once in a century, then citizens cannot be expected to guard against it by their own insurance or other protection. But where a person chooses to live by the sea and where, as the hon. and gallant Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Commander Pursey) has indicated, a certain amount of flooding occurs regularly, citizens must be taken to accept the risk.

Mr. Stonehouse.

These people are being flooded out regularly.

Order. We must move on from Hull to Barotseland.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what are the results of his discussions with the Paramount Chief of Barotseland.

The discussions have made satisfactory progress but will not be concluded until later this afternoon.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether his right hon. Friend, in his approach to the problems of Barotseland, is being influenced by the same ideals which have influenced him so far in his admirable handling of the problem of the Kabaka of Buganda—ensuring that, in any conflict between democratic representative institutions and a tribal feudal monarchy, democracy shall prevail?

The hon. Gentleman would do better to await the communiqué which will be issued later. Our relationship with the Barotse is a treaty relationship, and that will be preserved.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the relations between Barotseland and Britain right back to Queen Victoria were treaty relations? Does he know that many of us on this side of the House would prefer that treaty relationship to continue?

I think my hon. Friend will find that the communiqué when issued is satisfactory both to this country and to the people of Barotseland.

Whatever the communiqué says, may we take it that the Government have given no encouragement to the idea of secession, but rather that they will encourage the Paramount Chief to bring his system of government more into line with modern thinking?

I think that the hon. Member had better wait until the communiqué is issued.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a statement on his discussions with Mr. Ronald Ngala and Mr. Derek Erskine, Members of the Kenya Legislative Council, and his reply to their request for the release of Mr. Jomo Kenyatta.

My right hon. Friend's discussions ranged over the general political situation in Kenya and in the context of this he confirmed that he supported the line that the Governor had taken on Jomo Kenyatta in his statement of 1st March.

Will the Minister ask the Colonial Secretary to respond to this evidence of European interest in the immediate release of Mr. Kenyatta and release him forthwith? If he cannot do that, can he answer this question? Was an assurance given that if one or other of the political parties participated in a new Administration Mr. Kenyatta would be admitted within a period of three months?

No assurances have been given. This is a question of negotiation, and the formation of a new Government in Kenya, between the Governor and various political representatives. I prefer that it should remain as I stated in my original statement. This was a private conversation about which I am not prepared to make any further comments.

Would my hon. Friend agree that it is more important for all of us to try to concentrate on the formation of a stable Government in Kenya than to lend our support to the political clamour for the release of Jomo Kenyatta?

Can the hon. Gentleman confirm the report which appears in The Times this morning—

That supplementary question is out of order, with respect to the hon Member.

May I put it in another way?

Yes.

May I ask whether the hon. Gentleman can confirm the statements which have been made in Nairobi that a concession has been proposed?

That, equivalently, is out of order unless it is a statement for which the Minister is responsible.

May I ask the Under-Secretary a question about the formation of the Government and ask him please not to treat it as a private matter? Is it not a matter of the gravest consequence to the people of Kenya whether as a result of these conversations there is a further prospect of the formation of a stable Government in that territory and, if not, what action do the Government propose to take?

The hon. Member should wait and see until we achieve a stable Government. This is the main objective. I suggest that at this stage any publicity of private conversations cannot be helpful to the interests of the people of Kenya or indeed those in this House.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Would I be permitted to put a supplementary question asking whether a statement is true or not?

No. The point, which I think the hon. Member understands and which I will explain to him privately if he wishes, is that an hon. Member cannot ask a Minister to confirm or do the opposite in relation to a statement for which he or the Government are not responsible.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what figures of estimated discharges from the dockyard in Malta in 1962–63 and 1963–64 were given to the delegation from the General Workers' Union when it was in London recently; what action is being taken to find employment for discharged dockyard workers; what public work is being planned to meet the situation; and what provision is made for, and what amount is paid in, unemployment benefit.

The discussions with the General Workers' Union were in general terms on the overall employment prospects in Malta and assumed that the level of employment in the dockyard would remain constant save for the return of Admiralty staff lent to Messrs. Bailey. Regarding the second part of the Question, a Joint Advisory Committee on Employment, representative of all sections of employers and employees, will be keeping the employment situation under continuous review. The Malta Government's programme of public work is contained in its Five Year Development Plan, copies of which are in the Library of the House. Provision for unemployment benefit is made under the National Insurance Act, 1956; the weekly rate of benefit for men is 45s. married, 30s. unmarried, and for women 22s. 6d.

The Minister has not answered my Question. I asked what number of unemployed he expects in 1962–63. Figures were given to the delegation which came from Malta. Two months ago the delegation told me that unemployment in Malta was negligible and now there is a possibility of it increasing because of lack of agreement with Messrs. Bailey and Co. I want to know what has been done to relieve the situation in the future.

As I understand it, a very heavy investment is being made in private industry, and from Her Majesty's Government something like £29 million will be available for development between now and 1964. As to the size of unemployment, both sides assume that employment will remain at about the level the hon. Member has mentioned.

asked the Minister of Defence what immediate reappraisal of Great Britain's defence arrangements, including alliances, he has ordered as a result of the Russian manned space flight.

No reappraisal is called for.

Does not the Minister of Defence agree that the Russian manned space flight has brought very much nearer the day when most of our defence arrangements, including our alliances, will be completely obsolete and out of date, and indeed any effective national defence will be virtually impossible? In view of this, does he not agree that the nations of the world must now get together and be prepared to submerge their sovereignties in some kind of world order or policy?

I do not agree with the defence assumptions in the hon. Member's supplementary question. On the military basis, this achievement is the culmination of a long series of tests. It shows the capacity to deliver a container from an orbiting vehicle to earth, but there is no reason to suppose that a satellite presents any more accurate means of delivery of a warhead to a predetermined target than an I.C.B.M. If by the second half of his supplementary question the hon. Member means that it would be a good thing to get on with disarmament negotiations, the Government entirely agree.