asked the Minister of Transport if he will give a general direction to the British Transport Commission to ensure greater security for mail on all its trains.

No, Sir. The British Transport Commission is co-operating fully with the Post Office in measures for the security of mails on trains.

While thanking the Minister for that reply, may I ask him if he can be a little more specific and say what the provisions are?

I think not. Whilst I should like to tell the House what they are, if I did so I should be telling the thieves as well.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the concern of my hon. Friend in this matter is shared by many hon. Members who are disturbed by the sight of large consignments of mail lying around platforms at imporant railway termini ostensibly with no supervision at all? With his experience of the Post Office, will the Minister see what he can do to improve the security methods?

I will certainly see what can be done to improve them. As I said in my original Answer, the difficulty is that if I give the information to the House I shall, in effect, through the newspapers, explain to the thieves what precautions we are taking, and it would be very much better if they did not know what the precautions are.

asked the Minister of Transport if, in view of recent accidents on electrified railway lines, he will introduce legislation to alter the statutory specification of railway fencing.

asked the Minister of Transport if, in the interests of saving the lives of children and livestock, he will introduce legislation to enforce the provision of protective fencing where electrified railways pass through agricultural holdings.

I consider that the law as it stands is adequate. The British Transport Commission has to obtain my approval before any line is opened for electric traction and my Chief Inspecting Officer of Railways approves, on my behalf, the type of fencing to be used.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that, apart from the case of the small boy recently killed on the electric line in my constituency, there have been accidents to domestic and agricultural animals in recent months and the National Farmers' Union is very worried at the apparently complacent attitude of the British Transport Commission to this matter?

I have not myself heard from the National Farmers' Union, but I will get in touch and ask in what way it is particularly disturbed. The 9-year-old boy, a constitutent of my hon. Friend, met his death in an extraordinary place. He had been playing with other boys in some woods and he got on to the railway line by climbing the very steep side of a disused and heavily over-grown quarry. No fencing had been provided at this place because the risk of trespass had been considered negligible. Even so, the British Transport Commission is now looking at that particular spot to see whether it was right and whether fencing should be provided.

Does the Minister realise that on the Southern Region line, since 1946, sixty-four children have lost their lives as a result of trespassing on the lines, an average of four a year? Soon we shall be entering the picking season for fruit, beans and hops, when hundreds of children will be brought into the fields and orchards adjacent to the railways. Will the Minister, therefore. bring the strongest pressure to bear on the British Transport Commission, if he cannot introduce legislation for the purpose, to put up adequate fencing to protect the lives of children? I ask him to protect the lives of children as well as of livestock.

Where there is considerable risk of trespass, especially by children, what is called an unclimbable chain link fence is erected. This type of fencing checks but, of course, cannot prevent very determined trespass. Chain link fencing is generally provided also where hop fields are close to the line, because severe trespass by children on holiday with their parents has been experienced. That is what normally happens where children are concerned. In the particular case referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone (Mr. J. Wells), the accident occurred at a virtually inaccessible place where, normally, one would not have expected a child to get on the line.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will now announce when a commencement will be made with the construction of a new tube from Victoria to north-east London.

I am not yet in a position to make any announcement on this subject, but I shall do so as soon as I can.

This continuous procrastination will not do. A decision on the matter is long overdue. Will the Minister confirm what is reported in today's Guardian, that he recognises that if the project is to continue Government financial assistance will be required; and will he confirm also that it is the duty of London Transport not merely to pay its way but to provide adequate passenger facilities, which cannot be done until this new tube is commenced?

I have not seen the Guardian this morning. I will look at it and then write to the hon. Member. I do not know what it says, so I cannot comment on it.

For how many years has the Minister's Department been considering this very urgent problem? How many different excuses have been put forward by different Ministers of Transport for not coming to a decision? Is not the continued failure to come to a decision an almost incredible example of Government delay, and can the Minister give us any hope whatever that the Government are likely to be able to make a statement on the matter during the next few weeks or even few months?

It is obvious, with the railways in their present state, that the new Chairman of the British Transport Commission will have to make his assessment of the situation on the railways as a whole. The Victoria line will be considered in that context.

The right hon. Gentleman is the most coy of all Her Majesty's Ministers. When will he name the day?

The hon. Member is the most coy of all Her Majesty's Opposition.

Will the Minister realise that the responsibility for this decision rests upon him? When will he exert his authority and reach a decision?

As I said in my original Answer, as soon as I can do so.

asked the Minister of Transport what changes in the general policy of the British Transport Commission regarding advertising are contemplated in view of his reorganisation proposals for the nationalised transport undertakings.

General policy regarding advertising is a matter for the British Transport Commission and its successor undertakings. It is for them to decide whether any changes are necessary.

Is the Minister aware that only this month a change has been made in the commercial advertising division of the Commission and that the former public relations adviser who retired at the end of March has been appointed chairman of a small board to administer commercial advertising in Britain? Will he give the House an assurance that the present work undertaken by this division in Scotland will not be transferred to London in view of the unemployment position in Scotland?

This is an internal matter of management for the B.T.C. but I will ask it to look into the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he has yet reached a decision on the introduction of tolls on some new motorways, in order to increase, as rapidly as possible, the total mileage of motorways in this country.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will now announce his conclusions upon the study he has recently carried out into the question of toll roads.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will make a statement on the report of the study he ordered into the question of introducing tolls on motorways.

The Government have decided not to impose tolls on motorways forming part of the five major projects or planned as early extensions of them. The question of tolls on other and later motorways will be examined further. The existing policy of charging tolls on large and expensive tunnels or bridges will be continued.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask him whether it is not a fact that only £11 million additional is being spent on new roads next year, whereas £25 million extra is being imposed on the motorist in the form of taxation on motor vehicles? Would it not be a better bargain for the motorist to pay once on a toll road rather than twice over in this way?

No, I cannot accept the figures given by my hon. Friend. Very much more than £11 million is being spent.

I said £11 million extra.

Will my right hon. Friend be good enough to give an undertaking that he will keep an open mind on the question of the introduction of tolls on new motorways in the future, for it seems that this is the only way in which we can get private capital into road building? Can he say when he thinks his future study will be completed and when he thinks there may be an opportunity for an announcement to be made to the House? In addition, will he bear in mind that there are probably as many hon. Members in favour of toll roads as there are against them?

I am certain that there are many views on the question of tolls, and that opinion is fairly equally divided. The point is that on the five major projects which have already been announced, some of which have been started and some of which have been completed, including their extensions, it is not possible to have tolls; but after that, on future motorways, we shall have a completely open mind.

Will the right hon. Gentleman explain to those who do not agree with the hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann) why it is necessary to raise tolls at all? Have we not in the Budget just had a classic example of soaking the motorist? If money is required to build roads, why cannot such a method as has been announced in the Budget be employed instead of levying tolls? The collection of tolls might have been justified in the dim and distant past, in the Victorian era, but how can it be claimed to be suitable in the modern age?

A toll is absolutely appropriate in the case of a very expensive tunnel or bridge and where there are tremendous advantages to be gained by using the tunnel or the bridge. Therefore, it is still the intention of Her Majesty's Government to charge tolls on very costly new bridge and tunnel schemes.

How is it possible to justify the additional tax on some motorists who have to use a bridge or tunnel which does not apply to other motorists in other parts of the country who do not use the new bridge or tunnel? There is no justice or sense in it at all.

I have often agreed with the right hon. Gentleman, but I regret that on this occasion I cannot. In the case of the Dartford tunnel it was agreed (a) that it should be built, and (b) that there should be a toll on it. Once we started building, there was pressure for removing the toll, but it was a package deal and we should not be able to build it unless there were a toll.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I put it to you that the Questions relate not to tunnels or bridges but to motorways, which are a separate matter? Would the Minister not cloud the issue by bringing in bridges and tunnels when we are concerned with motorways like M.1?

I did not hear anything that was out of order.

asked the Minister of Transport what progress has been made with the construction of the Hyde Park motor under-pass scheme; and whether he is yet in a position to give an approximate completion date.

Work on this scheme is proceeding according to plan. It should be completed by about the end of August, 1962.

May I ask the Joint Parliamentary Secretary, in view of the urgent need of relieving traffic congestion in London and restoring the amenities of Hyde Park, whether he and his right hon. Friend will endeavour to speed up completion of this project?

No, Sir. This scheme is being run by the London County Council, and work is proceeding according to the schedule laid down in the contract, despite the substantial difficulties of doing this work, because we have to keep the traffic circulating, and despite the extremely serious bad weather experienced in the last few months. [HON. MEMBERS: "When?"] I do not think there is any possibility of speeding up the completion of this project.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will now announce the new three-year classified roads programme.

This has now been notified to highway authorities. A list of the larger schemes included is being placed in the Library for the information of hon. Members.

Will my right hon. Friend be good enough also to publish this information in the OFFICIAL REPORT? Will he also say whether this represents an increase upon previous years, and will he tell us how the West Country fares in this matter, and whether we have had an increase, as we very much hope?

The West Country, as always, has been treated very generously. The maximum publicity will be given to this particular effort on the part of the Government.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will give urgent consideration to the provision of pedestrian refuges on the A.20 road in the parish of Harrietsham.

We intend to provide refuges at the junctions of East and West Streets with A.20. The start of work must depend on the acquisition of a small amount of land to maintain the carriageway width, but I hope it will be this financial year.

Is my hon. Friend aware that with the great increase in the width of the road, and the fact that the road divides the parish in two, with the alms-houses and all the old people living on the south side and the church, the post office and the school on the north side, this is a veritable death trap? Is he also aware that it is extremely urgent that this summer some temporary refuge, if not a permanent one, should be provided?

I take note of what my hon. Friend has said.

asked the Minister of Transport when he intends to order work to start on the Long Ashton bypass road in Somerset.

I cannot at present say when this scheme could be authorised.

I assure my hon. Friend that I am well aware of the many complexities of the matter, but is he aware that the continuous argument and "argybargy" about this badly needed by-pass has been going on now for about thirty years? Will he consider putting all those concerned, including his own Ministry, in one room, locking the door, and refusing to let them out until they make up their minds?

I doubt that that sort of solution would be as effective as my hon. Friend thinks. As he says, we have for many years recognised the need for a by-pass. A line appears in the Somerset county development plan as a trunk road scheme forming part of the Bristol outer by-pass, which is a motorway project. We are now discussing with the Somerset County Council and the other local authorities possible lines for the route of this motorway. We shall press on and try to reach a decision as soon as we can.

asked the Minister of Transport on what date he received a letter from the hon. Member for Tynemouth about two telephone kiosks dangerously placed from the point of view of traffic in Gosforth; on what date he replied; and when action may be expected.

My hon. Friend's letter was received on 24th October, 1960, and a reply was sent on 30th November, 1960. The time when the telephone kiosks will be moved is a matter for my right hon. Friend, the Postmaster-General, whose property they are. I understand that the sites approved as being suitable on traffic grounds have now proved to be impracticable for other reasons, but my right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General is making efforts to find suitable alternative sites.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the police also supported the suggested alteration of the sites of these telephone kiosks? Will he please explain to me, in his capacity as Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport, why it should be left to someone like me, who knows nothing about the siting of telephone kiosks, to receive representations and to examine the possibility of danger to life and limb? Why did not the Postmaster-General get his staff to go a long time ago? Was it perhaps that my hon. Friend did not take the trouble to let him know that there was danger to life and limb with the kiosks on the present sites?

As I have said, questions relating to the siting of kiosks are for my right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General. It is true that both the local authority and the police supported the suggestion that these two kiosks should be moved. We are getting on with that as quickly as we can, but now we have run into difficulties over re-locating the kiosks on different sites. That difficulty will be cleared as quickly as possible. I think that my hon. Friend sells herself a little short in suggesting that we have to wait until she tells us what ought to be done.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will take steps to provide for the making of appeals in cases where local authorities refuse applications for exemption from parking meter charges made by disabled drivers.

No, Sir. The administration of parking meter schemes has been deliberately left to the responsibility of local authorities, who should in our view continue to decide whether to grant exemption from charges to a disabled driver.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the case I have in mind is that of a man who has lost both legs and whose appeal for a free parking place has been turned down by the local authority? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this man is anxious to know to whom he can now appeal? He cannot appeal again to the local authority which has turned him down. Can he ask the Minister to arbitrate on whether he has a case?

No. With respect to the hon. Gentleman, I think it would be a little unreasonable for appeals to be made to my right hon. Friend for a decision in these cases. These are matters of local responsibility, and in our view local authorities have a much greater knowledge of the local circumstances than the Ministry could possibly have. For that reason, we deliberately leave decisions on these questions to the local authorities.

Is there no appeal against the decision of the local authority?

There is no appeal in the technical sense, but I suggest that the hon. Gentleman's constituent might well try approaching the local authority again.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware that Gosforth Urban District Council is planning the removal of the heart of the village because of the congestion of traffic; and why he has not already taken further action to make the High Street safer for children and elderly people.

I am aware that the local authorities are considering a plan to resite the central shopping area of Gosforth to the west of the Great North Road. So far as the second part of the Question is concerned my hon. Friend will be aware from correspondence with me of the measures which have been taken or which are being currently examined to improve the safety of the High Street.

May I ask whether my hon. Friend is aware that elderly people, children and parents of children are scared to death to cross the main road in Gosforth village? May I ask why traffic lights have been put up in an area in Gosforth where there have been no fatal accidents, where there is no traffic speeding and where it is possible to see in all directions, but have been refused in the High Street? Is he aware that there is a shortage of police? Is my hon. Friend concerned only with keeping the traffic moving, and is he aware that it moves far too fast through the centre of Gosforth, resulting in fatal accidents and creating great anxiety for people who live there? Will he please get on with doing something about it?

I have corresponded exhaustively with my hon. Friend on this question—

With no result.

—and I am afraid that today, in answer to Questions, I cannot go into some of the details which she has raised. We are obliged to my hon. Friend for bringing her point of view to our notice and we shall get on with this matter as quickly as possible.

asked the Minister of Transport when he now expects the Ml length of the Neath-Abergavenny Heads of the Valleys Road to be completed; what it will cost; and if he will reconsider enlarging the scheme to a dual carriageway road.

We expect that the improvement of the Heads of the Valleys road from Abergavenny to Hirwaun will be completed in 1965 or 1966. Its estimated cost is about £6,250,000. I cannot say when the road from Hirwaun to Neath will be improved. With regard to the carriageway width, I cannot add to the reply given by my right hon. Friend on 17th February, 1960, to my hon. Friend the Member for Barry (Mr. Gower).

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply and I welcome the fact that we shall see this road completed in the foreseeable future. Will he reconsider the question of the width of the road, having regard to the fact that new industry coming to West Glamorganshire and East Carmarthenshire is so related to industry in the Midlands that it will create an increase of traffic on this road which his Department could never have taken into account when the road was planned?

The position is not quite as my hon. Friend says. Taking into account the development he mentioned, we estimated that the traffic on the Heads of the Valleys Road would not reach a figure of 11,000 passenger car units per day until about twenty years from now. That is within the limit in which it is our policy to provide only a single 33-ft. carriageway.

Does not the Minister realise that he has neglected two important factors? Is he aware that there is general support for the view which has been expressed? Is he aware that the gradients on this road, which at certain points is 1,000-ft. up, combined with the climatic conditions, create the possibility of icing in winter which would convert parts of the road into a death trap? Will he reconsider the suggestions made by the hon. Member for Swansea, West (Mr. Rees)?

I will look into the points raised by the hon. Gentleman, but I do not think that they are likely to change our views on this matter.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will now give the opening date of the pedestrian subways in the Bath Road, Cranford; and what were the reasons for the delay.

I hope that the central subway will be open for use in a fortnight, and the two others by mid-May. The delay in completion which I regret was due to the abnormally wet autumn and winter and to the contractor's difficulty in getting and retaining skilled labour.

I thank the Minister for giving us the opening date of one of the subways. Is he aware that the anticipated date was last October and that my constituents were very disappointed in view of the urgent need for an additional subway on this main road to London Airport?

We were just as disappointed as the hon. Member and his constituents, but the fact is that we did have this extremely bad weather—

When?

—in the autumn and winter, as I said in my Answer. The contractor had the greatest difficulty in getting the skilled labour needed for this type of work.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will announce the result of his investigation into the problem of all-night parking of commercial vehicles in Brixton.

My investigations into this difficult problem may take some time. I will let the hon. Member know as soon as they are complete.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that not only in Brixton but in many other parts of London the conditions arising from this all-night parking of heavy commercial vehicles have become quite intolerable? Is it not a problem with which he has been acquainted for some time now, and ought not really drastic action to be taken in the very near future?

The hon. Member himself has moved locally to try to succeed but, I am afraid, has failed, so I shall do my best to help him, and this is the way we are going to help. We have seen the Metropolitan Police and the City Police and I have seen them again this week, and we are to have discussions with all the Metropolitan boroughs concerned, because what is needed is not so much strengthening of the law as adequate off-street parking facilities. This is a problem especially of amenities. I agree that it applies to many boroughs in London. We will certainly do all we can as quickly as we can.

May we take it from what the right hon. Gentleman has said that the investigations are covering the whole of London, because this has become an intolerable nuisance and, indeed, a danger, in Islington and other parts of London? May we take it that the Minister will not wait till adequate off-street parking facilities are provided, because meantime in a great many respects a large number of inhabitants in the residential quarters of London are now suffering very seriously?

The problem applies to the inner Metropolitan boroughs of London—Bermondsey, Brixton, many others. We shall treat it as a problem of that magnitude.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will arrange in respect of householders and shopkeepers affected by the Eastern Avenue Extension through the borough of Leyton and in regard to similar major road reconstruction elsewhere that notice to treat shall be served when the approval of such schemes is made public and not left until immediately prior to the commencement of operations, and thus avoid delay involving financial hardship.

Notices to treat cannot legally be issued until a compulsory purchase order has been made incorporating the detailed land requirements. In general, compulsory purchase of land and property long in advance of road works is normally undesirable, but we shall certainly have regard to the need for starting land acquisition in very good time for schemes such as the Eastern Avenue Extension which involve displacing large numbers of residents and businesses.

Does not the hon. Gentleman appreciate that a large number of my constituents are very seriously affected by the prolonged delay in the development of this road, and that the suggestion embodied in my Question comes from those who are affected? In those circumstances, will he see that their suggestion is sympathetically considered?

Yes. The difficulty is partly legal, in that, as I said in my Answer, we cannot serve notices to treat till the compulsory purchase order is made. Secondly, if a particular case of hardship arises where property is virtually unsaleable because of the prospects of our roadworks requiring land, there are the provisions of Part IV of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1959, the planning blight provisions, whereby we are authorised to make earlier purchases than would otherwise be the case.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will now take steps to review the workings of the Merchant Shipping Act of 1894.

asked the Minister of Transport what progress has been made towards an agreement between his Department and both sides of the shipping industry on the desirability of amending the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894.

Representatives of both sides of the shipping industry are considering this subject and I am awaiting their recommendations.

While recognising that it would be dangerous to press too quickly in this matter, which is for negotiation between the two sides, would not my right hon. Friend agree that the discussions appear to be hanging fire a little at the moment? Will his Ministry try to urge matters on to a conclusion?

Both sides of industry are on the National Maritime Board and, so far as I can gather from both sides, they are satisfied with the rate of progress. I think it is very difficult for a Minister to say, if both sides of industry are in negotiations, that they are not negotiating quickly enough, and I would rather leave it to them to decide what measures they would like to be adopted before my Ministry looks into the matter.

While it is necessary to consult both sides of industry on a complicated matter of this sort, would it not be desirable after the consultations have been concluded that the Minister should issue a White Paper so that hon. Members could express their views before the introduction of legislation?

I should like to consider that. I will say that when both sides of industry have decided what they would like, it is very necessary that the Minister should look at it from the point of view of the safety considerations.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will now make a statement about the future of the shipbuilding industry.

The Report is being published today of the Sub-Committee of the Shipbuilding Advisory Committee which was set up to review the prospects of, and the problems facing, the shipbuilding and ship-repairing industry. Most of its recommendations are addressed to the industry and I hope that they will be followed up energetically. Three of the recommendations are for the Government. The new export credit facilities which my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade announced last week have already met one of these. I am giving consideration to the other two, relating to possible scrapping schemes and orders for Government-owned snips.

Can my right hon. Friend say exactly when the Report will be published? Is it to be today? Can he also say if there will be an opportunity of debating the matters which will obviously arise, which may be of considerable importance to the shipbuilding areas?

The Report will be available in the Vote Office at the end of Questions. The question of a debate is one for my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary and Leader of the House.

Will the Minister assure us that he will give an early reply to the two points outstanding and affecting the Government? May I also join with the hon. Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. P. Williams) in pressing the Minister to see his right hon. Friend about the advisability of having an early debate?

The question of a debate should be raised on Thursday with my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House. Out of three recommendations which, it is said, the Government should adopt, as we have already adopted one before the Report is published, that shows how quickly we shall proceed.

Will my right hon. Friend recommend a debate?

asked the Minister of Transport what was the number of passengers to or from the United Kingdom who crossed the Atlantic Ocean by sea in 1956 and 1960, respectively.

The number of passengers to and from the United Kingdom who crossed the Atlantic Ocean by sea in 1956 was 382,000. Figures for 1960 are not yet available but the number for the first ten months of 1960 was 261,000.

Can my right hon. Friend say what proportion these figures represent of the total number of passengers crossing the Atlantic by all means, and does not this underline that the building of a new "Queen" liner might be subsidising a declining industry?

I do not think so, because the Question asked about the number of people crossing the Atlantic Ocean, which includes not only people going to the United States but also to Canada. Much of the recent fall in sea pasenger traffic was in emigrants to Canada. Further, as the "Queens" actually take the cream of the traffic, therefore, the Question as it stands is not valid as a comparison as to whether the "Queens" will be effective or not.

Can my right hon. Friend give comparable figures for the "Queens" for 1956 and the first ten months of 1960?

Not without notice.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will now make a statement about the future programme of research and development for nuclear-powered merchant shipping.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will now make a statement about the award of a contract for the construction of a prototype nuclear propelled merchant vessel.

I hope to make a statement fairly soon on the application of nuclear power to merchant shipping.

Can the Minister say what is holding up this decision? Why is he dithering about this? Why should we be rapidly falling behind other nations in a field in which our inventiveness and skill should give us a great lead?

The real point is that we must make the best use of our resources and be satisfied that what we do is right in the interests of the nation. What worries me more than anything else is the economics of this method of propulsion.

In view of the importance of this subject, and the great interest which it causes, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether he will consider publishing a White Paper when he comes to a decision?

I should like to consider that. When any decision is arrived at, a complete explanation ought to be provided both for the House and the country.

Can the Minister be a little more specific about the timing? What does he mean by shortly? Does he mean in the next few weeks?

Very soon,

asked the Minister of Transport if he will now make a statement on the inquiries he has made on the treatment accorded to some of the survivors of the m.v. "Dara".

The reception of so many survivors presented a problem to the authorities. My inquiries show that the arrangements made by the Bahrain Government and the ship's agents, in consultation with the Political Agent, were the best that were possible in the circumstances.

Did the right hon. Gentleman read the account by the correspondent of The Times, who was himself on this boat and a survivor, of what happened to him when he reached Bahrain and of the appalling, incredibly bad conditions in which he and the other survivors were housed for two days without being allowed to see anyone from outside? If that account is correct, was not something grossly wrong in the arrangements, and could not our representative there have done something better?

I saw the account in The Times. I have asked for inquiries to be made. I asked for specific inquiries to be made of India and Pakistan, and the consular representatives of both those countries expressed appreciation for the excellent reception arrangements. No complaints at all other than that of the correspondent of The Times have been made. Even so, I will go into that particular single complaint.

asked the Minister of Transport what the result has been of his consultations with interested bodies about the introduction of a seamanship test for boat owners.

Some of the bodies consulted have not yet been able to let me have their final views, but I hope to receive them shortly.

May I thank the right hon. Gentleman for the sympathetic attitude he showed to the proposal when I first put it forward? Before the usual crop of holiday fatalities occur, will he try to urge the interested bodies to deal with this matter with a greater degree of expedition than apparently they have shown?

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his gratitude, although I am bound to say that it makes me a little apprehensive. We did write to a large number of bodies—the Royal National Lifeboat Institution, the Dock and Harbour Authorities' Association, the Royal Yachting Association, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents, and many others. It is difficult to ask these bodies to produce their replies quickly, but I will do my best to expedite the matter. It is in their hands and not so much in the hands of the Government.

Has the attention of my right hon. Friend been drawn to the correspondence and the editorial comment about this in the boating Press, strongly advocating that no precipitate action should be taken not only in this case but in other matters, including boat registration?

I am convinced that this will raise questions which will have many complications and that it would be much better that the Government should be absolutely right and a little late with their decision, rather than early and wrong.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will now state when he proposes to introduce a 10-hour maximum working day for lorry drivers.

I cannot add to what I said in reply to the hon. Member's Question on 29th March.

If British Road Services can successfully operate a 10-hour maximum, why cannot private firms follow their example? Secondly, since, as distinct from most industrial negotiations, public safety is directly concerned, is not immediate Government action required?

The reduction of hours asked for in this Question is desirable on two grounds, maybe. First, safety, and, second, raising the standard of living. The question of raising the standard of living is one for negotiations between the unions and the industry in the usual way. The question of safely, of course, is for the Government, and in 1960, for example, there were 78,000 fatal and serious accidents on the roads, and in only 71 of these was the illness, fatigue or physical defect of a commercial driver involved. Only when the Ministry and the Government are convinced that safety is involved should they take action.

asked the Minister of Transport what further consideration he has given to the necessity of restricting to wide roads and to certain periods slow-moving large vehicles and vehicles of exceptional length in order to avoid serious congestion and dangerous passing.

In view of the comments put forward by some of the interests concerned on the proposals we circulated last year, we are considering how far the burden they would impose on industry can reasonably be modified.

Quite apart from the burden on industry, does not the hon. Gentleman appreciate the great burden upon both motorists and pedestrians in many parts of the country as a result of the severe congestion caused, sometimes involving a hold-up of half an hour or more? In the circumstances, is it not his social duty to try to take action in the matter?

Yes, Sir. That is precisely why we have circulated these proposals for new regulations. The position now is that we have received representations from industrialists and others, and we are seeing whether we can come to a mutually agreed scheme whereby we shall have tighter control over these loads but without placing on industry too heavy a burden.

Is the Minister aware that, about three years ago, on two occasions, one of his predecessors at the Ministry of Transport assured me that this urgent question was being considered by an inter-Departmental committee and the report of that committee was awaited very shortly. We have had "very shortly" and "soon" and "perhaps" several times today. What I am referring to occurred three years ago, and it is on record in HANSARD. Apparently, nothing has been done. Is the hon. Gentleman and his right hon. Friend aware that I have recently seen examples of railway locomotives, railway rolling stock, carried on vehicles with over 100 wheels on the highway A.56 and coming south holding up three miles of traffic, and that this sort of thing goes on all the time?

The hon. Gentleman is quite wrong to say that nothing has been done. As I have explained, following the report to which he refers, we have prepared new draft regulations which will give the Minister much greater control over the movement of this type of vehicle. We have circulated them. We have received a large number of representations. We are now engaged in considering those representations and we shall very soon come to a decision and make an announcement about what our proposals are.

asked the Postmaster-General if he will consider compiling and publishing a separate telephone directory for the county of Norfolk to operate from 1962.

My right hon. Friend is considering this proposal, although he sees some difficulties in it. He will write to the hon. Member and to other hon. Members who have raised this question as soon as his examination is completed.

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for that reply in that she says she is going into this matter, but is she aware that at present Norfolk is served by four different telephone directories covering Ipswich, Peterborough, Cambridge and Norwich? In my own area we are supplied with a directory covering the Cambridge area. I can get calls from Bishops Stortford and places 80 miles distant, but in the other direction, for local calls to only six miles away, we have to dial "Inquiries" and ask for the number. Will the hon. Lady bear this sort of thing in mind and consider that really in 1961 this is a stupid state of affairs? I hope that she will be able to help us in this connection.

We recognise the difficulties and are looking very closely into this matter.

asked the Postmaster-General what was the quantity of home-grown telephone poles purchased by his Department last year, to the nearest convenient date; and what proportion of total purchases of telephone poles they represented.

13,552 telephone poles were purchased from the home industry during 1960, representing 26 per cent. of the total purchases for the year.

Will my hon. Friend make it quite clear that, where the price and quality are good enough, her Department will try to buy home-grown products and species other than Scots pine?

I can assure my hon. Friend that we shall do everything we can to encourage home-grown produce and we do in fact accept species other than Scots pine.

Will the hon. Lady tell us if there are any suitable areas in Scotland where this lucrative crop could not be grown?

The majority of the poles come from Scotland and at present a senior official of the Department is up in Scotland looking into this problem.

Will my hon. Friend get in touch with the Forestry Commission to see if it can find more suitable timber for Post Office use?

We work very closely with the Forestry Commission on this.

asked the Postmaster-General if he will state the numbers, at the latest convenient date, of applicants for telephones in Aberdeen City and County, respectively; if he will specify the steps he has taken during the last five years and the steps he now plans to take to reduce the number on those waiting lists; and what have been the results.

On 31st March last there were 431 applications on hand in Aberdeen City and 284 in the remainder of the County. Of these, 343 and 233 respectively were under inquiry or in course of being met.

I am glad to know that the waiting list has been reduced, but does the hon. Lady realise that conversations in Aberdeen should be encouraged because they are generally characterised by sense, wit and humour, and sometimes by justifiable emotion?

I am glad to find myself in agreement with the hon. and learned Gentleman, and I would stress also that they are marked by the generosity which we all recognise is the main characteristic of the Aberdonian.

asked the Postmaster-General what plans he has for the introduction of subscriber trunk dialling in London this year.

I am hoping that S.T.D. facilities will be brought into use on 1st July at the Metropolitan, London Wall and Moorgate exchanges. By the end of the year I hope to provide S.T.D. for our customers on a further nineteen exchanges in the City, Westminster and the West End.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for that information, may I ask when he intends to extend this system to the Willesden area? May I invite his comment on an observation that subscribers find that while they are economising on long-distance calls, they find it more expensive to face bills for local calls?

I do not think that Willesden is scheduled for subscriber trunk dialling within the next twelve months. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why not?"] As for charges under the new system, it is perfectly true that some subscribers find that their bills are heavier than they were. It is equally true that for others they are lower, but something like three-quarters of the people who are on the new system approve of it.

asked the Postmaster-General (1) whether the operating and supervisory staffs at the Continental Trunk Exchange are up to authorised establishment;

Unfortunately, the linguistic operating staff is still about 25 per cent. below strength. All the supervisory posts are filled, some by temporary promotion.

In noting the right hon. Gentleman's general comments, may I ask whether one of the difficulties in recruiting suitable operators into the Continental Trunk Exchange is that the allowance for the specialist linguistic qualifications is regarded by most of the operators as quite inadequate? Will the right hon. Gentleman look into this?

I recently did so and increased the language allowance, I think last October, from 19s. to 35s. a week, and at the same time there were improvements in pay and conditions generally. I believe that the situation is now improved at that Exchange. We have 214 telephonists now in training and I am sure that the situation will continue to improve.

asked the Postmaster-General what proposals concerning security of mail on trains were agreed during the recent discussions between his Department, the Ministry of Transport, and the British Transport Commission.

asked the Postmaster-General what steps he has taken recently to improve mail security in trains.

It would help the criminal world if I gave details of the steps that have been, and are being, taken in cooperation with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport and the British Transport Commission to improve mail security on trains. I can say, however, that they include changes in the stowage arrangements for mails on long-distance trains, and improved physical protection for the doors of guards' vans and the grilles of cages used for carrying mail.

While thanking the Minister for that reply and assuring him that we are not unsympathetic about this very grievous problem, I feel obliged to say that I hope that other methods will be offered to the House to tighten up a very unsatisfactory position.

I entirely agree that the precautions which have been taken have proved to be partially ineffective in recent times, but I assure the House that this matter has been taken most seriously by me and by the Ministry of Transport and by the British Transport Commission.

While appreciating that it would be unwise to disclose some of the methods which have been agreed upon between the respective Departments in regard to security, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he will assure the House that he will try to vary the methods hitherto used by the Post Office in the labelling of bags so that the identification of bags containing valuables and registered letters will be made a little more difficult than it has been in the past?

Without giving any information away at all, I assure the hon. Member that action has been taken.

asked the Postmaster-General if he has considered the recommendation by the North Regional Advisory Council of cheap television licences for old people.

The views of the B.B.C.'s North Regional Advisory Council have come to the notice of my right hon. Friend. He is sorry he is unable to adopt the suggestion.

Will the Minister reconsider this matter, because is not this an instance where a small concession would bring a large return in human happiness? Is it not true that it would not cost the Post Office anything at all if extra viewers were brought to viewing, and that revenue would be lost only from the relatively small number of pensioners who can afford to have a T.V. licence?

I would remind the hon. Gentleman that pensioners are not a small number, and also that the great difficulty would be to know where to limit this concession. There are many other categories—the bedridden, the disabled—many people we can think of. It would be difficult to limit this concession. We believe that there are other and better ways of helping the people in this category.

Surely it must be the wish of most people in this House that the old and disabled people of this country should share in the amenities of our modern life? I feel sure that it is the wish of hon. Members of this House that I should press the right hon. Gentleman to reconsider more sympathetically the decision which he has made. May I ask the hon. Lady if she has any estimate at all of what would be the cost if the fees for the old and disabled and the other people who are suffering, people of the sort she has mentioned, were reduced by, say, one-half?

It would be extremely difficult to make an estimate, in view of what I have said about the very wide nature of the concessions which in justice would have to be given, but I know that my right hon. Friend looks at this matter sympathetically. We all wish to help, but we do not believe that this is the right way of helping in this particular case.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

asked the Postmaster-General what progress has now been made in introducing colour television; what are the prospects in the near future; and what are the main obstacles.

The B.B.C. test transmissions in colour are to continue, and I hope they will help our manufacturers to develop a reliable and less expensive colour receiver which will not require an imported picture tube.

Whilst appreciating the right hon. Gentleman's difficulty in saying anything in view of the discussions which are taking place, may I ask whether he is not aware that there is a great deal of dissatisfaction with the present position in that there are many who feel that he is pandering unnecessarily to the interests of commercial television? If that is not so, would he say so? Does not the right hon. Gentleman recognise that many people would like colour television, that it would transform life for many people who are home-bound, and that it would be a great social advance?

There is no question of my pandering to the Independent Television Authority—none whatever. The position is that the B.B.C. put its proposals to me towards the end of last year for experimental colour services. I turned them down, I think in January of this year, chiefly on the ground that I take the view that the question of line definition should be settled before the question of colour. The B.B.C. desires to reopen the matter now, and I will consider what it has to say.

If line definition is the determining factor, why does not the right hon. Gentleman agree to allowing the B.B.C. to have a pilot scheme so that it can, even if it is on 405 lines instead of 625, gain more practical experience of production and reception?

That would be a mistake. Once an experimental system of 405 lines were allowed, one would be bound to create a demand for sets which in three or four years' time might well become quite obsolete.

asked the Postmaster-General what was the maximum amount of advertising permitted to be broadcast in any hour by the Indepedent Television Authority in 1958, 1959, 1960 and 1961; and what consultation he has had with the Authority under Section 4 (4) of the Television Act, 1954, to enforce a maximum of six minutes in any hour.

The normal maximum was eight minutes from the beginning of 1958 to September, 1960, 7½ minutes until December, 1960, and it has been seven minutes since then. On occasion, the Authority allows, subject to its prior approval, more than seven minutes in any one clock hour, provided this is offset by a reduction in the preceding or following hour.

Is the Minister aware that Channel 9 since it began has now broadcast well over 100 hours of excess television commercials, free of the new tax and bringing £1 million to the television programme companies? If a maximum of seven minutes is now regarded as being right, why was that maximum not brought in before? On what grounds is the maximum seven minutes and not six minutes as Parliament was assured it would be when the Television Act was passed?

The rule to which I.T.A. works is a limit of six minutes spot advertising averaged over the day. During the first six months of last year the average in peak hours was about seven minutes per hour. During the first three months of this year that has fallen to 6·4 minutes. The average for the whole day during the last three months has been 4·8 minutes, which I do not think is unreasonable.

As the right hon. Gentleman has now become a sleeping partner in television advertising and will cream off 10 per cent. of the revenues for the purposes of the Exchequer, may we have an assurance that suitable arrangements will be made by his Department in consultation with the Treasury to have proper auditing facilities available to check these times and to see that they are observed? Otherwise, is it not obvious to everybody that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will have an interest in compounding a felony?

The Opposition cannot have it both ways.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take it from me that sometimes the advertising is much more interesting than the programmes? Is he also aware that occasionally the B.B.C. surreptitiously introduces advertising for which, of course, it does not receive any revenue?

May we have an example?

I have on occasion expressed the same view as that expressed by the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) in the first part of his supplementary question. As for the second part, I do not think that the B.B.C. deliberately does that sort of thing, but it sometimes creeps in inadvertently.

Is not the important point here that the House during the debates on this matter was assured that the time at any hour would not exceed six minutes? Is it not the right hon. Gentleman's responsibility to see that the assurance which was given to the House is strictly observed?

As I have tried to indicate in my reply, the average time during the last three months devoted to spot advertising has been 4·8 minutes and the average during peak hours 6·4 minutes. I do not think that the practices of the television companies are in any sense at variance with what was said in Parliament when the Act was passed.

asked the Postmaster-General on what occasions he has used his powers under Section 9 (1) of the Television Act, 1954.

None, Sir.

Is the Postmaster-General aware that this Section of the Act gives Ministers power to make announcements in the public interest without charge? In view of that, why do not Ministers apply this for the recruiting commercials and cease spending huge sums of the taxpayers' money, which goes to the programme companies, for services which can be given free.

Because Section 9 (1) of the Television Act refers in terms to announcements. The intention was that the announcements should refer to things of an urgent character, such as police notices, flood warnings, and so forth. I think that it would be wholly inappropriate for the Government to use the power given to them under Section 9 (1) for the purpose of obtaining advertising.