asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty whether he has completed his inquiries following his interview with Mr. F. R. Evans, of Leeds, concerning the procedures adopted in his Department in relation to the purchase of Government stows; and whether he will make a statement.

Yes, Sir. Surplus Admiralty stores are almost invariably sold by competitive tender. All tenders received are held unopened until the due date. They are then opened and examined in the presence of senior officers who witness the due recording of the individual tenders. I am satisfied that this long-established procedure eliminates the possibility of any irregularities in the Admiralty.

The hon. Gentleman will be aware—though I must ask him whether he is—that my constituent, who has had great experience in these matters, suggested that there was some commercial leakage in the Admiralty in cases in which he has been concerned, and that there were people, known in different parts of the country, who had "leaked". These names were given to the Minister at the time.

Yes, Sir. The allegations were serious, and I therefore looked into them most carefully. In the particular instance of the firm whose name was mentioned, I found that, in tendering for machinery, it was unsuccessful with over 80 per cent. of its bids, so the story was not wholly true that it was always successful in its tendering.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty what plans he has for the future of H.M.S. "Surprise"; and how many days per year she spends at sea.

Excluding a normal ten week refit, the dispatch vessel H.M.S. "Surprise" has spent about half her time this year at sea taking part in exercises and visiting foreign ports. She is a valuable and economical unit of the Mediterranean Fleet, and we plan to keep her running for as long as possible.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty how he proposes to allocate contracts for new naval construction.

It is no longer policy to allocate orders for new construction to commercial yards. These contracts are won primarily as a result of competitive tendering. As far as the Royal Dockyards are concerned, their main task is the modernisation, repair and maintenance of the Fleet; they are allocated sufficient new construction to provide essential knowledge and experience of shipbuilding techniques.

Does my hon. Friend realise that mere maintenance and reconstruction work is very dull indeed? We have very good workpeople in Portsmouth who can build ships extremely well and rather more cheaply. Will he reconsider this and let the Royal Dockyard at Portsmouth build new ships?

We are providing a trickle of new ships to the Royal Dockyards for the purpose which I stated. I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend that the Portsmouth Dockyard looks like being very fully engaged. It has the depot ship "Maidstone" to modernise, the conversion of H.M.S. "Albion" to a commando carrier, and also the substantial refit, later this year or early next year, of H.M.S. "Hermes." There is thus no lack of work.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty if he is aware that construction of naval ships in Her Majesty's Dockyards is considerably cheaper than calling for tenders; and whether he will allocate all new naval construction to Her Majesty's Dockyards.

It is difficult to compare prices, but on recent evidence, costs of ships built in the Royal Dockyards have been roughly equal to those built by the industry. It is as yet too early to say whether this pattern will be affected by the reintroduction of competitive tendering, but, as I explained in my reply to the last question, price is not the only consideration in allocating a small amount of building to the Royal Dockyards.

My hon. Friend has been kind in sending work to Portsmouth, but is he aware that the Accountant-General has stated that it is much cheaper to build ships in H.M. Dockyards? In view of the fact that there have been no strikes this century in any of the Royal Dockyards, will my hon. Friend reconsider this and let us build ships in them?

As I have said, I am feeding a trickle to the Royal Dockyards, but I must keep a balance, because many hon. Members represent shipbuilding areas which desperately need work.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that when we were in charge of the Admiralty we gave a large amount of contracts to H.M. Dockyards, and also gave them repayment work which was most satisfactory? Will he consider that?

I would not like to quote the figures without looking them up, but my impression is that H.M. Dockyards had less new building under the previous Administration than under our Administration. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will put down a Question, when I can answer more fully.

Will the hon. Gentleman give an undertaking that public enter- prise in the dockyards will not be adversely affected, in view of his hint about other shipyards? Will he say that, if the dockyards can do the work more cheaply, they will get it?

From the evidence it is rather difficult to assess whether it is cheaper or not, but we are directing a trickle towards the Royal Dockyards. About 10 per cent. of our new building goes to them and 90 per cent. to private yards.

Has the Minister a scintilla of evidence in favour of the extravagant and false premise on which the original Question was based? Does he agree that Britain is rich in shipyards able and willing to do the work cheaply and efficiently? Will he see that such work is fairly distributed among those shipyards, particularly Aberdeen?

I think that the hon. and learned Member's scintilla has underlined my difficulty.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty if he will give the latest figures for recruiting and re-engagement for the Royal Navy and Royal Marines, respectively; and if he will make a statement.

One thousand three hundred and fifty-nine Royal Navy ratings were recruited in April-June, 1961, as compared with 1,124 for the same period in 1960. The corresponding Royal Marine figures were 233 and 201 respectively. The rate of re-engagement for pension in 1960 was 64 per cent. for Royal Navy ratings and 52 per cent. for Royal Marine other ranks. The information so far available for 1961 does not indicate any significant change in re-engagement.

How far does my hon. Friend attribute these satisfactory figures to advertising in the Press? Will he say, in comparison with the equivalent Army figures, whether these figures give a good basis for increasing the Vote A strength of the Royal Marines?

It is true that we have increased our Press advertising and the response from advertising coupons has noticeably improved. There were 5,000 in the first six months of last year, and 12,000 have sent them in during the first six months of this year. The second question is rather wider. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War no doubt heard what my hon. Friend said.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty what ships and personnel from his Department are involved in the evacuation of troops from Kuwait.

The commander-in-chief has been instructed to announce the movements of ships and troops. He has already stated that No. 45 and No. 42 Commando and H.M.S. "Bulwark" are likely to leave Kuwait shortly. I have nothing to add at present.

Is the Minister aware that apparently a large sum of money has been spent in Kuwait and that a considerable number of troops are suffering great hardship in Kuwait as a result of the request of the Ruler of Kuwait for security? Could he arrange for the evacuation of the Ruler of Kuwait and protect him here by Scotland Yard?

I am sure that the hon. Member realises that the Government's first consideration was to honour our recent and solemn undertaking to the Sheik of Kuwait. I am surprised that he wants to relate this honour to £s. d.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty what has been the incidence of heat exhaustion among Royal Marine Commandos in Kuwait.

My right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence made a statement on the situation in Kuwait on 11th July, in which he said that the number of cases of heat exhaustion were well under 1 per cent. of the total force. This general average applied equally to men of the Royal Marine Commandos despite the fact that in the early stages of the campaign, these men had to work in forward areas throughout the heat of the day in very trying conditions.

Will the Minister therefore agree that the Royal Marines do not fall out and collapse due to any extremes of weather, when on active service or for that matter on the parade ground, and that they very much resent any suggestion of this sort? In that connection, will he take this opportunity to deny the ridiculous reports which appeared in the Daily Mirror on 6th July that a Royal Marine Commando was withdrawn from Kuwait because one-third of the men were suffering from heat exhaustion?

I am delighted to deny the accuracy of that report. The total number of cases needing hospital treatment among the Commandos has been about fifteen. On average it has been about one a day. They have not only undertaken the operation with tremendous efficiency but have stood up to the conditions remarkably well.

Has my hon. Friend received any requests from Parliamentary delegations who want to visit the men on the spot?

Not to date.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty whether the two Departmental committees to investigate security arrangements, which were set up before the Romer Committee was appointed, have now reported; and whether he will make a statement.

As my noble Friend the First Lord stated in another place on 5th July, he set up an internal Committee to review the organisation for security within the Admiralty. As a result of a report from this Committee he has decided to set up a new Security Department. Some further work remains to be done on details but the Committee's work should be completed before long.

Will the Minister explain how it is that reports of the activities of these Committees, which are supposed to be confidential, have already been leaked to the Press before any statement of their work has been made to the House? Does it not appear that something is wrong with the security of the security in the Admiralty? In those circumstances, will he expedite the appointment of a competent and responsible person to do away with all these Committees and to establish some real security in his Department?

My noble Friend has shown clearly how seriously we take the mistakes which have occurred in the past. There is no question of leakage; we have announced in another place what action we are taking on the main recommendations of this Committee.

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty what information he received from the Russian authorities regarding the Russian naval manoeuvres in northern waters and the English Channel.

None, Sir.

Arising out of that reply, does not the Minister agree that the appearance of Russian warships in the English Channel, as reported in the Press a few days ago, must be a matter of concern to the people of this country? Will he give the House any information derived from any source as to the number and types of craft involved?

I cannot give details of the numbers and types involved in the exercises in general. One cruiser and one destroyer went up the English Channel. This is the right of sailing on the high seas. I do not think that I can interfere with that.

Does not the Prime Minister accept that, while agreeing with the point behind the Question of the hon. and learned Member for Ipswich (Mr. D. Foot), it would be better not to say too much about this, as any inquiries or observations which we might have made about the Russians are better kept to ourselves?

asked the Secretary of State for War if he is aware that the Navy, Army and Air Force Institutes' stores in Germany are selling large quantities of German-made goods; and whether, with a view to saving foreign currency, he will instruct them to sell British goods instead.

The Navy, Army and Air Force Institutes, like any other trading organisation, must pay regard to what the customer wants. It is its policy to sell British goods as far as possible, but the 10 per cent. of its sales in Germany which is represented by German goods consists of goods for which there is a strong demand amongst our forces, and which in any case they would be free to buy in the local shops.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is every appearance of N.A.A.F.I. stores being much fuller of German goods than 10 per cent.? There is obviously some loss of foreign currency through this means. We need not be shy about clamping down in this way, because the Americans have had to prevent their own Service men from buying British cars and other British goods in order to save American currency. If we wish to save British currency, is not this the way to do it?

I understand what my hon. Friend has in mind, but it would cost less in foreign currency for N.A.A.F.I. to buy these things wholesale than for the individual to buy them retail.

Is it not very desirable that the N.A.A.F.I. should sell local goods to avoid the criticism which has been expressed in some cases about N.A.A.F.I. competing with local shops?

The policy of N.A.A.F.I. is not to encourage the sale of German goods but to provide what the troops want at a cheaper price.

asked the Secretary of State for War how many Army camps in the United Kingdom have been vacated in the last two years; where such camps were situated; and what transference has taken place to other Government Departments of houses and buildings.

One hundred and seventy-one situated throughout the United Kingdom. Fifteen have been transferred in whole or in part to other Government Departments.

Is not the Minister aware that everything should be done to speed up the transference of the houses and buildings attached to these sites? In view of the existence of the vacated army camp in my constituency, may I ask whether the transference of the houses and buildings has been completed and how much it cost?

The transference of sixteen married quarters to the Ministry of Health has been completed. The remainder of the disposal process is going ahead but it is not yet complete. I will keep the hon. Member in touch with the progress.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will release Bandsman Leverton from the remainder of his Army service so that he may take up in September the place which he has obtained at King Alfred's Teacher Training College, Winchester.

Yes, Sir. I am considering whether I can remit any part of the purchase price which he will have to pay. I will let the hon. Gentleman know about this as soon as I can.

Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that there is a desperate shortage of teachers, and that it would not be reasonable to keep this man for a few more months in the Army, and, as a result, cause him to enter the teaching profession a year later, if indeed he entered it at all?

Yes, Sir. I think that, as the hon. Gentleman recognised in a letter which he wrote to me recently, the point now is what he can reasonably be expected to pay for his discharge, and this is under examination by the Command at the present time.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he sought the advice of his consultant in tropical medi cine, Professor A. W. Woodruff, or his consultant in physiology and nutrition, Dr. D. P. Cuthbertson, when preparing his plans for sending troops into Kuwait at the hottest time of the year.

The problems associated with tropical medicine, physiology and nutrition affecting our troops in Kuwait are understood, and it was not necessary to seek special advice on this occasion.

Can the hon. Gentleman say why it is that the Government maintain a panel of most distinguished advisers, and, when confronted with a special problem, do not consult these advisers? Would he not accept the view that in these days it is a disgrace that any single British Service man should suffer from heat hyperexia in the light of modern knowledge?

The hon. Gentleman has raised this matter several times recently. I should like to make it quite clear that my right hon. Friend not only values the services of these distinguished gentlemen, but that they are frequently used. As regards Kuwait and whether the troops are eating and drinking the right things to keep them fit, I am satisfied from what I saw that they are. Now that they are settled down to the drill and routine appropriate to the hot weather, everything is satisfactory.

May I ask my hon. Friend not to take too seriously the strictures of the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg), who has so long enjoyed the reputation of the Cassandra of the British Forces that he is absolutely furious that in Kuwait everything has gone all right?

May I assure the right hon. Gentleman that I do not think that Kuwait has gone all right? I think that the Government have used their public relations services to prevent the public from knowing the truth.

asked the Secretary of State for War which units have now been withdrawn from Kuwait; and whether it is proposed to withdraw further units.

Two companies of the Coldstream Guards and a small number of supporting troops have already been withdrawn from Kuwait. The question of further withdrawals is still under consideration.

Do these withdrawals mean that an attack is not expected? Will the Minister bear in mind that we have reports of accommodation difficulties in Kuwait and continuing reports of a severe shortage of troops in other parts of the world? Is he not aware that he will be strongly criticised if he keeps troops hanging about in Kuwait for a moment longer than is necessary?

I cannot accept all that, but I understand what the hon. Gentleman means. I shall be strongly criticised, I think, whatever we do, but I prefer to be criticised for doing our duty, and I think it is our duty to keep our troops there so long as the Ruler of Kuwait feels that they are necessary, and, in particular, so long as the commander-in-chief on the spot feels that there is uncertainty about the future. So soon as we are satisfied, we will certainly withdraw more troops, but I can tell the hon. Gentleman that I hope it will not be long before we withdraw further troops. May I take the opportunity of refuting what the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) said? I believe that this is not a public relations exercise, but that it has been highly successful and very creditable to the Army.

If the right hon. Gentleman is satisfied, is he aware that the troops went in without anti-aircraft cover, with ineffective anti-tank weapons, with no ground strike force, short of long-range fighters and without any effective long-distance freighters? If that satisfies him, well, God help us if he had been disappointed.

rose—

Order. It is quite clear that this does not bear any relation to the original Question.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he proposes to place orders for the Vickers Vigilant.

I am considering the question of a production order for this or some other light anti-tank guided weapon.

While, obviously, it is not possible to judge this particular weapon without special knowledge, is it not clear that the Army is very short of weapons of this type, and that our forces in Kuwait would have been stronger for anti-tank weapons of this type? Can the Minister say when it first became available, and when he intends to take a decision?

We need this, because we want a light anti-tank weapon, but we already have anti-tank weapons, and the troops which went into Kuwait were armed with anti-tank weapons. This is something which we feel would be useful, partially for air transportability. We have started trials, and some of the trials have been finished, but we have to assess this weapon against other light anti-tank weapons, and l cannot give any undertaking when we will be able to make a decision. It will be a matter of weeks before we can do so, and it would not have been any good if we had selected this weapon before Kuwait, because there is no "head" for it yet.

Can the Minister give us any indication of what the Vickers Vigilant costs, and why he should be pressed to go in for more of these weapons when we are told that we are facing a financial crisis?

So far, the Vickers Vigilant has cost us nothing, because it was a private venture by this company. If we buy them, it will depend on how many of them we buy, and we have not yet been able to settle any price. Our responsibility is to try to see that the Army is armed with the weapons which it requires for modern warfare, and there is a requirement for a light, wire-guided, anti-tank weapon of that type. When the time comes, perhaps I can tell the House more about the cost.

asked the Secretary of State for Air for what purposes the Royal Air Force propose to use the former United States air base at Burtonwood, Lancashire.

As a reserve airfield.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that for three or four years I have been trying to impress upon the Government that this great base, the biggest freighter base in Europe, has been deteriorating rapidly, while the Government have been procrastinating, and that I have been fobbed off with a story that the runway is unusable because of mining subsidence? Would he confirm that this runway is in good condition to help in transporting freight for industry, as soon as the Royal Air Force have gone out?

We think that the runway will give us good service for some years yet, but this will to a large extent depend upon the progress of the subsidence which is affecting the main runway. As I think the hon. Gentleman knows, we have no objection in principle to civil use, subject to the R.A.F. having priority, provided that the cost of civil operations does not fall on Air Votes.

Will the Minister say that the fact that the R.A.F. is now using it will not preclude industry in the North-West from utilising the runway at Burton-wood, if it can be used with advantage for industrial freight?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, subject to the R.A.F. having priority, and provided that the cost of civil operation does not fall on Air Votes, yes.

asked the Secretary of State for Air, in view of the fact that the shortage of married quarters at Iburg means that non-commissioned officers and airmen have to wait over a year before being joined by their families, what steps he intends to take to rectify this matter.

The non-commissioned officers and airmen now in official married accommodation at Iburg had to wait, on an average, about eight months for it.

Without asking my right hon. Friend to comment on individual cases, may I ask if he is aware of the case which I brought to his notice recently in which an N.C.O., who has already been separated from his family for eleven months, will not be joined by his family for eighteen months? Would not my right hon. Friend agree that this is one of the greatest bars to satisfactory recruiting, because the women just will not have it?

I am indeed aware of the case to which my hon. Friend refers. We are hoping that a solution will be found for this one, but the figures which I have given to my hon. Friend show that this is certainly exceptional.

asked the Secretary of State for Air to what extent the resources of Transport Command have been utilised on the airlift to Kuwait; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Secretary of State for Air how many aircraft of the Royal Air Force Transport Command, transports of the Royal Rhodesian Air Force and civilian charter aircraft, respectively, were used in the first six days of the Kuwait operation; and what was the total number of men and tonnage of stores moved.

Some seventy Royal Air Force Transport aircraft were used, most of them within the first forty-eight hours.

Will the Minister be good enough to convey our congratulations to the men and officers concerned? Nevertheless, is he satisfied, as a result of the Kuwait operation, that a most serious shortage of transport aircraft has not been disclosed, and that if the Kuwait incident had occurred at a spot less well placed to one of our bases we would not have been in great difficulties? Is he doing something more to obtain additional transport aircraft—especially a long-range strategic freighter?

I thank the hon. Member for his congratulations, and I will see that what has been said in the House is passed on to the forces concerned. As the House knows, in the Estimates debate we explained our plans for the strengthening of Transport Command. We are certainly not satisfied with the strength that we have today, and we mean to see that it is built up. At the same time, the operation showed that we were able, within our resources and without cutting down other essential tasks. to do the job in hand.

I join with the hon. Member for Sheffield, Park (Mr. Mulley) in congratulating those responsible for the organisation of this air lift. Nevertheless, is it not apparent from this operation that Transport Command is stretched to the utmost, and that if another operation had been necessary at about the same time we should have found it very difficult to meet the commitment? In that case, would it not be advisable to hasten the development of further types of transport aircraft, especially a strategic, long-distance aircraft, as the hon. Member for Sheffield, Park said?

I am all for hastening the development of these aircraft as soon as possible, but I do not think that it is proper to say that we were stretched to the limit. Throughout the operation we continued to run the routine airlift that had been going on of Ghana and Nigerian forces into the Congo. A number of aircraft were carrying out routine transport tasks elsewhere in the world, and within six days of the beginning of the operation we were carrying out what was, in effect, a distinct operation, namely, the reinforcement of Kenya with elements of the 19th Brigade.

Would it not help the House to understand and get this problem into perspective if the Minister told the House the time and hour at which this operation began?

That is a separate question. If the hon. Member wants an answer, perhaps he will put it down.

In view of the need shown by the operation in Kuwait for a long-range freighter, will my right hon. Friend consider increasing the order for the Belfast long-range freighter?

I pay tribute to the strong local feeling that animates my hon. Friend. We are looking forward to having the Belfast as soon as possible.

asked the Secretary of State for Air how long he expects that Middleton St. George Airport will be required for Royal Air Force purposes.

This airfield will be needed for operational flying for as long as we can foresee.

Since the Minister is not in a position to give an estimate of how long this airport will be required for Air Force facilities, is he aware that in all probability application will be made for civil flying for the North-East? Will he do whatever he can to assist, if he should be called in for consultations on this matter?

I recognise the limitations of Ministerial foresight. I was on Tees-side the other day, and I know the strength of feeling that exists up there, but it is my first duty to see that the operational aircraft of the Royal Air Force have the necessary facilities, and for the time being I cannot foresee the time when we shall not need this airfield for operational purposes.

asked the Secretary of State for Air what aircraft are available for air defence and ground attack rôles in operations similar to the Kuwait operation but where long metalled runways are not available in the area.

The Hunter 9 can operate from suitable natural surfaces after some preparation provided sufficient length is available. But we have at present no aircraft of this type which is wholly independent of long runways or prepared, or semi-prepared, surfaces.

As the Hunter aircraft is now obsolete or obsolescent, is it not time that we developed an aircraft which could operate under these conditions?

We are giving active thought and study to this problem. [Laughter.] It is all very well for hon. Members opposite to laugh, but there are a number of candidates for the particular type of aircraft which my hon. Friend has in mind in his Question, and we have not yet come to a final decision on which is the most suitable for all our purposes.

Does not the Secretary of State appreciate that there is an awfully long gap between the end of his consideration and the time when the aircraft become available in service? Does he realise that it is a serious matter, and that we should get something done about short take-off and landing aircraft? Can he say anything about the offer that I understand has been made by the Lockheed Company, to the effect that it would allow its Hercules strategic freighter to be developed for this purpose in this country?

I hope that the hon. Member will forgive me if I do not talk about freighters, because the Question related to air defence and ground attack aircraft. At present there are no air defence or ground attack aircraft with short or vertical take-off capabilities. This is what we hope to see developing in the next few years, and what we are engaged in studying at die moment is the choice of suitable types.

asked the Minister of Defence, in view of the termination of National Service, what contribution is now being made by the Ser- vices towards the training given to the youth of this country.

The cadet forces are at present the main instrument through which the contribution of the Services to youth work is made. We are considering the extent to which we can provide better facilities and new equipment.

Can my right hon. Friend say in what kind of way he may be able to expand these voluntary activities?

Yes. I hope that hon. Members will take an interest in this matter in their own constituencies. The Services have a great part to play in the Youth Service, in offering leaders and instructors and men who are willing to help to teach the youth of the country new and exciting things to do. I hope that we can greatly develop this over the next few years.

asked the Minister of Defence whether, in view of the need for greater military flexibility arising from balance of payments difficulties and other considerations, he will redesignate the British Army of the Rhine as part of the United Kingdom Strategic Reserve.

No, Sir. Our W.E.U. and N.A.T.O. obligations specifically allow us to withdraw our assigned forces on the Continent of Europe in the event of an acute overseas emergency. Moreover, if our Brussels Treaty commitments throw too great a strain on our external finances, there is provision in both W.E.U. and N.A.T.O. for reviewing the financial conditions on which our forces are maintained on the mainland of Europe.

Will my right hon. Friend confirm one conclusion to which I have come after some research into the matter, namely, that even at times of this country's greatest strength, economically and otherwise, it has not previously been considered wise policy to maintain a standing Army in peace time on the Continent of Europe?

That is a rather different matter. I am sure that my hon. and gallant Friend knows that we maintain these forces in N.A.T.O. in furtherance of our clear Treaty obligations.

asked the Minister of Defence if he will make a statement on his official discussions with the Minister of Defence of the Union of South Africa, the South African Secretary for Defence, and the Commandant of the South African armed forces, on the subject of the defence relations between the Union and the United Kingdom.

My talks with the South African Minister of Defence were, of course, confidential. They were concerned with how best to meet our defence requirements in the changed relationship between our countries. They thus formed part of the examination of our future relationships with South Africa over the whole field which is still continuing.

The conversations may have been confidential, but does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that very big issues are involved? Is he aware of our concern about the statement of the Minister of Defence for South Africa that the main purpose of the reorganisation of his Army is to repress any internal disturbances and any incursion of Africans from other territories? Does not the right hon. Gentleman feel that we should take no part in such activities? Secondly, is it true that there was a contribution of arms to the Government of South Africa? In view of the use of our Saracens at Sharpeville and Pondoland, is it not time that we stopped sending arms to the Government of the Union of South Africa?

All these are rather different questions, and if the hon. Member will put them down I will seek to answer them. The main point is that South Africa is now an independent country. On the other hand, we have long-standing arrangements with her. For example, there is the Simonstown naval base, which is of great interest to our strategic dispositions. These are the matters that I discussed with the South African Defence Minister, and there is still more work to do before a settlement can be reached.

Can the Minister say to what extent we are responsible for the defence of South Africa, which is now an independent country, and how much of this cost will fall upon our taxpayers?

As I understand it, since South Africa is an independent country we are not responsible.

Will my right hon. Friend keep in mind that the strategic objective of the Powers who are at least partly responsible for the trouble in Angola is the Atlantic coast of Africa, which is vital to the defence of the West?

I think that I had better stick to the subject of the Question. There is a very difficult tidying-up operation to be done between us and South Africa. It is in our mutual interest that we should do it.

Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that no agreement was made in these talks for the further supply of arms to the Union of South Africa?

No, Sir. I would not be prepared to agree or disagree with that.

asked the Minister of Defence what restrictions have been placed on defence arrangements with the Union of South Africa to exclude United Kingdom commitments in relation to military assistance by the Union Government to the Government of Portugal in the territories of Mozambique and Angola.

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given by the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations to the right hon. Member for West Bromwich (Mr. Dugdale) on 6th July.

I have read that reply, but it gives very little information. Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that, in view of our arrangements with the Union of South Africa, we should be very careful indeed that our defence arrangements do not involve us in any action by the Union Government in collaboration with the Portuguese or other Governments in Angola and Mozambique?

My hon. Friend's Answer was perfectly plain. He said that no such Anglo-South African defence commitment existed.

asked the Minister of Defence what measures are in contemplation for a reduction in our overseas military expenditure; and if he will make a statement.

I am always seeking to economise expenditure, particularly overseas; but I have no special statement to make at present

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware of the statement made by his right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer the other day that, because of the burdens facing this country, it would be necessary to reduce our overseas military expenditure? Have the Government no plans? Was that merely a nebulous statement meaning nothing?

No, Sir. I think that my right hon. and learned Friend's statement was perfectly clear. I have nothing to add to it at the moment.

What was clear about it?

Obviously in any examination of Government expenditure, overseas expenditure of all kinds must be included.

If my right hon. Friend has to consider any reduction, will he bear in mind that there are many of us who think that we should sooner exercise our rights under the N.A.T.O. Treaty, for a reduction of forces, than reduce our commitments in further places in the world?

That is quite a different question.

Does my right hon. Friend recall that in this context he used the words, in response to an earlier Question, "clear Treaty obligations" in reference to the British Army of the Rhine? Are those Treaty obligations incapable of re-negotiation having regard to our current financial circumstances?

I made it perfectly clear in that Answer, and perhaps my hon. Friend will be kind enough to have a look at it, that there are certain outlets from the Treaty both on the ground of finance and on the ground of some emergency overseas requirement for British Forces, and those are part of the Treaty.

asked the Minister of Defence on what date it is now intended that the postponed military exercises in Portugal will take place.

I have nothing to add to my reply to the hon. Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Brockway) on 6th July.

asked the Minister of Defence why it has been necessary to postpone the military exercises due to take place in Portugal.

Part of the Brigade which it had been intended to exercise in Portugal has been deployed overseas as a result of the Kuwait operation.

As the right hon. Gentleman has had a full opportunity of deploying troops in a genuine military exercise in Kuwait, will he finally once and for all cancel this very ill-starred Portuguese manœuvre?

The position is quite plain and it has been debated in this House a number of times. The Portuguese kindly offered us these facilities, which we accepted. We were then not able to use them. I have no intention at the moment of doing other than leaving matters as they stand.

asked the Minister of Defence if he will make a further statement on Kuwait.

I have nothing to add at this stage to the reply I gave on 17th July to the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg).

Does the Minister intend introducing a Supplementary Estimate of what we have spent in the desert of Kuwait on the same day as the Chancellor of the Exchequer makes his appeal to reduce defence expenditure? Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether we have the men, the money, or the resources to be involved in Kuwait and Berlin at the same time?

On the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, he may well be considerably over-estimating the cost of this exercise, because I am glad to say that it has led to the deployment of troops, which we are always having to do round the world, with no fighting. As to our responsibility in Berlin, I consider that we can fulfil this and our responsibility in Kuwait.

In view of the withdrawal of certain troops recently, can the Minister now say how many are left in Kuwait?

No, Sir. I do not think that it would be in the national interest to do so, but, as I have told the House, I hope that there will be a progressive withdrawal.

asked the Minister of Defence whether he will give particulars of the announcement by General Kassem, on 28th June, 1961, of his intention to annex Kuwait.

As is generally known, the first statement by General Kassem of an intention to annex Kuwait was made on June 25th. Since then, his campaign has continued.

The right hon. Gentleman has now discovered three methods of concealing the truth. The first, is to alter HANSARD after he has made his statement. The second is to introduce a statement which he will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT, and the third is to ascribe an error on a major matter to a clerical error. Would not it be better to alter the rules of the House—

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Order. I must ask the hon. Member to withdraw the observation that the Minister has been concealing the truth.

I will gladly withdraw the words "concealing the truth" and substitute "disguising the facts". Is it not a fact that the right hon. Gentleman made a statement in this House last week which he well knew to be untrue—[HON. MEMBERS: Order.]

Order. All imputations of that character are wholly out of order at Question Time. I must ask the hon. Member to withdraw.

I will try again, Sir. Is it not a fact that the right hon. Gentleman made a statement in this House last week—[HON. MEMBERS: Withdraw.]—which was—

Order. I think that the hon. Member did not hear me. I said that I must ask him to withdraw the imputation.

That is so, Mr. Speaker. I withdraw, but I will try again. Is it not a fact that the right hon. Gentleman made a statement in this House last week which was incorrect, which he knew to be incorrect, and which he took no—[HON. MEMBERS: "NO."]

Order. It is no good. It is back to the same thing. I think that it would be tedious if I had repeatedly to ask the hon. Member to withdraw. There is now one more that he has added, which I must ask him to withdraw.

I will gladly withdraw, Mr. Speaker. I am trying hard to be accurate. Is it not a fact that the right hon. Gentleman last week made a statement in this House which was not in accordance with the facts, namely, that General Kassem did not make a statement on the date on which the right hon. Gentleman said he made it. He made no effort to withdraw, alter, or amend HANSARD, and when I put a Question down to him, and having notified his office of the fact, he then sought to transfer the Question to the Lord Privy Seal to avoid having to reply.

That is not so. As soon as this was drawn to my attention and I recognised that an error had been made, I immediately sent a message to the hon. Gentleman saying that I would be very pleased to answer his Question.

Sir Wavell Wakefield.

I should like to make a categorical statement—[HoN. MEMBERS: "No."]—

My voice is failing to carry. I called the next Question. Sir Wavell Wakefield.

asked the Minister of Defence what payment will be made by the German authorities for the use of the tank training range and other facilities at Castlemartin, and for the transport in the United Kingdom of German troops to Castlemartin.

The Federal German Government have undertaken to reimburse Her Majesty's Government for all the costs incurred on their behalf in connection with this training.

However deplorable our economic plight may be after ten years of Conservative freedom, are there not some less immoral ways of earning money than this? Would not it be better to wipe the slate clean and not have anything at all to do with this business?

It might be better if some people tried to wipe the slate clean and remember that the Germans are now our allies and not our enemies.

asked the Minister of Transport far how many miles of new motorway contracts have been placed since 30th April this year; for how many miles further contracts will be placed before 31st December, 1961; how many miles of motorway are now under construction; and what steps he is taking to expedite construction on those roads where a line is already fixed or proposed.

Since 30th April this year contracts have been placed for 50 miles of new motorway. I hope that contracts for major bridge and tunnel works on the routes of a further 30 miles will be placed by the end of this year. About 170 miles are now under construction.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Is he aware that the result to date of the provision of M.1 and other road improvements has been a reduction in accidents and a great saving of time as well as a general improvement? In view of these facts, will he do his utmost to extend even further the work in hand for the future.

Yes, Sir.

Can the Minister say whether he is being held up in any way from launching a bigger programme by the absence of road-making equipment, civil engineers or manpower?

The limiting factor generally is skilled labour, especially in the urban areas.

Will the Minister assure us that anything that his right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer may say next Tuesday will not affect the programme?

As I do not know what my right hon. and learned Friend is proposing to say next Tuesday, I do not think that I can give that assurance.

asked the Minister of Transport if he has studied the booklet, "Missing Links 3". of which a copy has been sent to him by the hon. Member for St. Marylebone, describing the places where work on A.6, A.31, A.40 and A.56 is required; and when he intends to begin work in these places.

I read this publication with interest, but I regret that I cannot yet say when work on these schemes can start. At present I am concentrating available funds mainly upon the early completion of the five major projects and the most urgent classified road schemes in congested urban areas.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in some of these places the plans and preparations have been ready and the word to start has been awaited for twenty years or more; that the congestion in all these places is dreadful and the rate of accidents severe? Cannot he give particular attention to this matter and do something at an early date to relieve the congestion and reduce the number of accidents?

We are doing quite a lot to relieve congestion and to reduce the number of road accidents. But it is much easier to write a pamphlet than to build a road.

asked the Minister of Transport what number of accidents occurred in any recent convenient period on British roads resulting directly from dark and black diesel oil fumes from exhausts of road vehicles; and what steps he proposes to take to increase road safety in this respect.

I regret that the information requested is not available. Black smoke is often due to misuse of the excess fuel device to obtain extra power. I hope that the new Regulations, which I am laying before the House today, will prove effective in preventing this abuse.

Would not my right hon. Friend agree that his Regulations, covering—according to what was said yesterday by the Parliamentary Secretary for Science—only the matter of the fuel device in the engine, are quite inadequate to deal with the whole of this gravely menacing situation to road safety? Cannot he do something to secure the proper enforcement of the law as it exists at present?

The question of enforcement is one for the police and for my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. I think that the Regulations which are being laid today will represent an important step forward in reducing this evil.

If the new Regulations are to be enforceable by the police, is not that taking the whole thing out of the hands of my right hon. Friend? There are many police forces in the country. What relations has my right hon. Friend with those police forces to ensure that the Regulations are enforced?

My personal relations with the police are most amicable. As Minister, it is not for me to deal either with the Metropolitan Police or the county police forces. That, speaking Ministerially, is the function of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.

Does not the Minister realise that we are getting fed-up with this "passing the buck"? When a Question was asked of the Parliamentary Secretary for Science he passed it on to the Minister of Transport. Now the Minister of Transport is passing it on to the Home Secretary. Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise how extremely dangerous are these diesel fumes and that, when driving along a road, it is quite impossible to pass without danger a vehicle emitting diesel fumes, because one cannot see? Is he aware that these fumes are uncomfortable to drive behind and that therefore there is every incentive to pass? Is he further aware that these fumes make the roads sticky and slippery? Will not the right hon. Gentleman see that some action is taken by the Government in some capacity to deal with this menacing problem?

I can only reply that it is a matter for the police and that the police are under the Ministerial direction of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.

Can the Question be passed on to the Prime 'Minister, when we should have more fog than ever?

I will pass on the observations to my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.

The right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) is very poor today—very poor.

asked the Minister of Transport what uses he now proposes for smoke meters for roadside enforcement, similar in general principle to the Ringelmann Chart in the Clean Air Act, 1956.

The Ringelmann Chart is not appropriate for measuring exhaust smoke density, since a suitable background is rarely available at the roadside. My Department is, however, undertaking tests with two other types of measuring device. With these we hope to develop standard test procedures for roadside measurement. This should greatly help the enforcement of the law.

Is not my right hon. Friend aware that this has now been a problem on our roads for more than twenty years and that the first powers were taken as long ago as 1931, yet there has been no improvement at all? Cannot he do something to infuse a little enthusiasm into scientific research circles, notably D.S.I.R., and as the Minister principally responsible, make them realise that this is probably one of the gravest aspects of our road safety problems?

The problem all over the world is to find some sort of suitable device to measure this evil. We are pursuing it actively with the Hartridge B.P. light-absorption meter and the Bosch filter-paper meter. These we consider better than the Ringelmann Chart which my hon. Friend mentioned in his Question but which is not suitable for this purpose.

I did not say that it was. The Question says "similar in general principle." Does not my right hon. Friend know what a Ringelmann Chart is? If he does not, he ought to go and use one.

I could tell my hon. Friend a lot about the Ringelmann Chart. He must—with his great scientific knowledge—have spent a great amount of time with the Hartridge B.P. light-absorption meter and the Bosch filter-paper meter. I should be happy to discuss these with him later if my hon. Friend can spare the time.

asked the Minister of Transport why no scheme in the East Riding of Yorkshire has so far been included by him in the list of classified road schemes of over £100,000 grant value to be authorised for the periods 1961–62, 1962–63 and 1963–64: and whether he expects to be able to give further consideration to this matter at any early date.

The schemes included 6n the three-year classified road programme were selected after careful consideration of national priorities and to give a special emphasis to the needs of congested urban areas. I hope to announce the programme for 1964–65 later this year.

While congratulating my right hon. Friend on the great improvement in north-south communications with the East Riding, may I ask him to bear in mind the importance of east-west communications between the East and West Ridings?

I am not sure that we should confine improvements to the East and West Ridings. I think that the most important are communications across the Pennines from Yorkshire to Lancashire.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will now make a statement about the future of the Road Traffic Bill.

asked the Minister of Transport if, in view of the rising number of accidents on the roads, he will expedite the passage of the Road Traffic Bill this Session.

There is clearly not enough time this Session for the Road Traffic Bill to go through all its stages in this House. There has, however, been valuable discussion of its provisions in another place, and I am sure that the Amendments made to the Bill have improved it considerably.

May I ask the Minister why he has concealed the obvious for so long? May I further ask whether it is not the fact that had this Bill been introduced earlier in the Session it would now be law? As its purpose is to reduce the appalling and growing toll of casualties on the road, how can the Government possibly justify giving preference over this Measure to another Measure designed to increase the charges under the health legislation?

It is always hazardous for any Minister to predict how long a Measure will take when it is introduced into this House or, for that matter, in another place. This Measure is to be reintroduced next Session and I shall look forward to a great amount of support and assistance from the right hon. Gentleman.

As this Bill was designed to save lives, may I ask whether the Minister has made any estimate of the number of lives which will be lost as the result of the postponement?

That is a hypothetical question and obviously it is something very difficult to measure. But I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that I shall do my best to get this Bill through in the next Session.

asked the Minister of Transport why the hand signal is retained as the basic form of signal for drivers of motor vehicles.

The hand signal is basic because it is the only signal that can be given by drivers or riders of all types of vehicles; but I regard the use of electric signals as more appropriate for most turning movements.

Would not my right hon. Friend agree that it is extremely dangerous to regard the hand signal as basic at night?

Yes, I would, but at the same time I think that when one rides a motor cycle, for example, one ought to know some sort of method of giving signals by hand, because it is difficult sometimes on some vehicles to have some kind of electrial indicator.