asked the Minister of Power, in giving his approval to the Gas Council's proposals for the import of methane from North Africa, what conditions he laid down regarding the total amount of town gas from that source in relation to total supplies.

asked the Minister of Power whether he has given any general directions to the Gas Council regarding the maximum amount of liquid methane to be imported.

I have not issued conditions or directions of this kind, but under the scheme I have authorised town gas derived from methane will be only about one-tenth of total gas supplies.

Is the Minister aware that this 10 per cent. importation of methane is from a politically unstable area? Will he give an assurance that at least for the next ten years there will be no increase in the figure of 10 per cent.?

I cannot give such an assurance, because that would commit us too rigidly in the future. I can, however, assure the hon. Member that before I gave my approval to the scheme, I made sure, and I satisfied myself, that gas supplies in this country could be provided even if the worst should happen in the area of the source of this methane.

Is the Minister telling the House that the Gas Council has plenary power to import as much methane as it likes? How long will the Minister be without a plan for the fuel industry? When he has finished with this charade of open competition and consumer choice, where will he find the customers for the coal that is displaced by liquid methane?

The Gas Council does not have my sanction to import as much methane as it likes. It has my sanction under the scheme to import methane from which about one-tenth of our existing total of town gas supplies will be produced. That is all the sanction that the Gas Council has.

asked the Minister of Power what representations he has received from the National Union of Mineworkers regarding his decision to allow the importation of liquid methane from North Africa; and what reply he has sent.

None, Sir. The Executive Committee of the National Union of Mineworkers explained their views on this subject to me at a meeting last June, but I have received no representations from the National Union since the decision was announced.

Is the Minister not aware that during the course of that meeting they objected most strongly to the importation of liquid methane? Has he not had time yet to assess what will be the effects on the mining industry of his decision, that confidence in the mining industry is rapidly on the wane, that the voluntary wastage of manpower is increasing, and that in the past 12 months 60 per cent. of the people who have voluntarily left the industry have been under 31 years of age? Is it not time that the Minister reviewed the situation before he kills the industry with imports of gas and oil, even before it is due naturally to die?

I think that the hon. Member's supplementary question was intended more to give than to elicit information, but whether or not that is true, I have explained on many occasions the part which I believe methane will play in meeting the fuel needs of this country, and I approved the scheme because of the urgent need of the gas industry to reduce its costs. If it does not reduce its costs pretty quickly, the future for the consumption of coal by the gas industry will not be very bright.

How final is this agreement? In view of the fact that the future of the supply of methane from the Sahara is very much in doubt and is dependent on negotiations between the French Government and the provisional Government of Algeria, would it not be better to postpone any final signing of the agreement until these problems are settled?

I do not think so. I have given permission to the Gas Council to sign an agreement with the authorities in North Africa. As I have explained on several occasions to the House, I did not give that permission without making it perfectly clear and satisfying myself completely that alternative supplies could be provided in this country if supplies from North Africa broke down.

asked the Minister of Power whether, in his consideration of the scheme to import liquid methane, he took account of the possibility of producing town gas more cheaply by the use of products offered at lower prices than methane.

Yes, Sir. The Gas Council took the view, with which I agree, that the technical advantages of methane more than offset the somewhat lower landed cost at which petroleum products were offered by certain oil companies.

Does my right hon. Friend not think that the possibility of being able to produce town gas sold to the consumer at between 7d. and 7½d. a therm rather than the 8½d. which it is suggested methane might be produced at would bring a 12½ per cent. saving to the consumer? Is not this something which ought to be more fully considered?

I should like to make clear to my hon. Friend that it was the methane scheme that was put to me by the Gas Council. It suggested that it was important and of technical benefit to the industry to have this gas. I am quite convinced that my decision will strengthen the competitive position of the Gas Council, but I have always stressed in conversation with the Gas Council, in public, and in the House, that there is no single road to the production of cheaper gas, whether it comes from methane or oil-based products like propane, butane or naphtha.

Does this mean that my right hon. Friend would consider favourably the importation of propane in addition to methane if it can reduce the price?

I will certainly consider very carefully any proposals put to me.

asked the Minister of Power whether he will make it a condition of the tender for the two proposed methane carriers that they should include alternative methods of propulsion.

No, Sir. The design of these ships is not a matter for me, but I understand that propulsion will be conventional and subject to no exceptional risk or difficulty.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that one of the only two firms asked to tender for these ships is prepared to offer alternative propulsive machinery to that of their own manufacture, but that the other firm is not prepared to do so? Is he aware that this firm was referred to in the recent report by Messrs. Peat, Marwick and Mitchell on orders for ships placed abroad, when the reason given for its losing these orders was that it was not able to make such an offer? Will he refer this to his right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport?

It is a matter for the Gas Council to decide how it wants its ships propelled. I understand that these firms put in tenders for certain methods of propulsion and that both Lloyds and the Port of London Authority are perfectly satisfied from the point of view of safety.

asked the Minister of Power whether he will now seek to amend Section 13 of the Electricity Act, 1957, so as to accelerate electrification in the rural areas.

No, Sir. The allocation of financial responsibility to individual Boards under Section 13 of the 1957 Act remains the policy of the Government.

Although it may remain the policy of the Government, is the hon. Member aware that it has resulted in the South-West in the fact that not only 60 per cent. of rural dwellings have no mains connection, but that in Barnstaple today only 45 per cent. of the total farms have a mains connection? Does he not think that in this day and age it is an outrage that there are still villages and hamlets—in 1961—without electricity or drainage, or water or any other facility? Does he not think that there is a case for making a direction under Section 8 of the Act that there will be within a certain time 95 per cent. of rural electrification in this country? Is he aware that America and most other European countries have been able to carry out rural electrification but that we are steadily lagging behind?

Progress in rural electrification in the South-West has been relatively greater than in other areas in England and Wales. The percentage of farms connected is far higher than 60: it is 71 per cent. The boards have a dual responsibility, first, to further rural electrification, and secondly, at the same time to make ends meet one year with another. It is up to the boards in their financial wisdom to decide how far and how swiftly they can carry out rural electrification.

Is the hon. Member aware that that is precisely what Section 13 is about? Is he aware that the boards can carry out such rural electrification only with subsidies out of urban profits, and that because the South-West is substantially rural there are few urban profits, which is why the rural areas are at the bottom of the queue? Does he not think, therefore, that this Section 13 should be amended?

The 1957 Act aimed to foster each board's independence and a sense of financial responsibility. This still remains the Government's policy.

asked the Minister of Power what action he is taking to allow scrap iron to be exported from the United Kingdom.

I have agreed with my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade to allow the poorer grades of iron and steel scrap to be exported, and an open general licence for this purpose was issued last month.

While thanking, my right hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask him whether he does not realise that this is only a very small percentage of iron and steel scrap? Does he realise that the scrap holders at the moment are completely burdened by an excess of scrap and that the credit restrictions stop them holding any more? What is more necessary for the time being is an open general licence for all grades of scrap iron, particularly grades No. 1 and No. 2 steel scrap? Would he consider that with his right hon. Friend?

I will certainly consider what my hon. Friend says. The difficulty and danger is, of course, that if we export now, at relatively low prices to a weak market, we may later have to replace scrap sent abroad with high-priced imports when the market hardens. Therefore, what I should like to do is to see how the relaxation which my right hon. Friends and I have adopted works out in practice; but I will consider what my hon. Friend has said.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the fact that the trade wishes these export licences only till the steel works begin normal operation again, and that therefore very short-term licences will be completely acceptable?

I will take into consideration what my hon. Friend has said.

asked the Minister of Power if, in view of the Economic Planning Council proposed by Her Majesty's Government, he will consider setting up a fuel and power council composed of representatives of all fuel and power industries with a view to a more efficient use of indigenous fuels allied with controlled imports of additional fuel requirements.

asked the Minister of Power if, in view of imports of oil and the future imports of methane gas, he will now consider setting up a board of all fuel and power representatives with a view to planning more effectively the use of British fuel and power resources.

asked the Minister of Power if, having regard to the effect on the home market for coal of the importation of gas and oil, he will now consider formulating a national plan for the more effective use of indigenous fuels.

It is my statutory duty to promote the efficient use of all types of fuel. This is a subject which will also play an important part in the work of the proposed National Economic Development Council, with which I shall be in close touch. I see no need for additional machinery of the kind suggested.

Why not? Why does not the Minister introduce some national sense of purpose into the planned use of our own fuels, first of all? Secondly, is it not possible that this national economic development council may itself in due course be prepared to look at our fuel and power situation and, possibly, give to those who work therein a larger share of the cake?

The Minister of Power was given the function under the Act of co-ordinating the various fuel industries. The hon. Gentleman and others of his hon. Friends do not think I do that very well, but I think that I am the best co-ordinator there is, and I do not intend to set up a co-ordinating committee to help to do my job.

Would the Minister be more explicit about not setting up the committee? Will he not take some note of what the Chancellor of the Exchequer says about future planning in this country? Does he not think it is time to end the attacks made by many of his hon. and right hon. Friends on the nationalised industries and to end these attempts to belittle this very important nationalised industry?

I agree with the hon. Gentleman, and, I think, most of his Friends, that co-ordination is very important indeed—[An HON. MEMBER: "What do you mean by it?"] That is exactly it. If by co-ordination the hon. Member and his hon. Friends mean dictation to the consumer of exactly what fuel he or she should use, I cannot agree that that is the right course to adopt.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that his reply today is going to add to the feelings of insecurity amongst the men in the industry and is bound to give rise to further loss of manpower which, in South Wales, is becoming a very serious matter for the industry and for our economy?

No, if the hon. Member is referring to the coal industry, as I think he is—

Yes.

—the best hope for the coal industry, as I think he will agree, is to continue the increase in productivity which has encouraged us in recent weeks and to improve its own competitive power against other fuels. I think that that is the best answer I can give.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that those of us behind him will take great encouragement from what he has said—his refusal to dictate to the consumer and user, and that this aim, which is constantly advocated by the party opposite, is a thoroughly bad one?

On a point of order. In view of the very unsatisfactory nature of these replies, I give notice that I shall raise the matter again on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.

asked the Minister of Power if, for the avoidance of doubt, he will introduce clarifying legislation to establish Ministerial responsibility for all the operations of the gas, electricity and mining industries, so as to enable Ministers to be questioned more fully in the House of Commons.

No, Sir. The hon. Member's suggestion would reduce the National Coal Board and other boards to complete cyphers.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not agree that we ought to reduce some of them? Does he not agree that the present position is wholly inadequate, because when some of these points are raised in debate the Minister invariably refuses to reply or does not refer to them?

But the difficulty is that the hon. Member's suggestion would give me literally total control over three important industries. Although I have reasonable self-confidence, the House might think that that was going a little too far.

Does the right hon. Gentleman's reply mean that he and Her Majesty's Government continue to have complete faith in the sound financial judgment of the boards of the three nationalised industries referred to in the Question?

It does not mean anything apart from what I have said in answer to the Question.

asked the Minister of Power if he will give a general direction to the Central Electricity Generating Board that they should secure the elimination of obnoxious fumes from power stations.

No, Sir. My right hon. Friend sees no need of such a direction. Control over the emission of fumes from power stations is primarily a matter for the Alkali Inspectorate under my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government.

Will the hon Gentleman make representation to his right hon. Friends that in many parts of the country power stations are causing great public nuisance? Is he aware that there has been a serious nuisance in my constituency at Derby and that Battersea Power Station has been making Battersea Park almost unusable?

Neither of my right hon. Friends has received any complaint about nuisance from Battersea Power Station recently. The Electricity Board has redesigned and modified the gas washing plant at the station, and the periods when it is out of operation should in future be less frequent and shorter. The first part of the right hon Gentleman's supplementary question is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing. I understand that inspectors make regular inspections to ensure that the best practical means of controlling emissions are used and that they receive ready co-operation from the Central Electricity Generating Board.

Will the hon. Gentleman pay a visit to Battersea Park when the wind is in the east?

asked the Minister of Power what information he has received from the National Coal Board regarding its proposals for the closure of Lea Hall Pit, Rugeley, Staffordshire.

asked the Minister of Power what information he has regarding the future of the combined mine at Dean and Chapter, Ferry Hill.

asked the Minister of Power what information he has received from the National Coal Board as to its plan for closing pits in the Parliamentary Division of Easington in 1961, 1962 and 1963.

Decisions on the closure of individual pits are a matter of day-to-day management by the National Coal Board and hon. Members should ask the chairman for this information. I expect that the hon. Member for Lichfield and Tamworth (Mr. Snow) has seen the Board's announcement on 23rd November which showed that there is no question of closing the Lea Hall Colliery. The Board has made no announcement about Dean and Chapter Colliery, and the only information that the Board has given about closures in the constituency of the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) is that Wingate Colliery may be closed in 1962.

Is the Minister aware that I have not seen the notice by the National Coal Board and that it has not been notified to me? Secondly, is he aware that the Question was put down with a view to scotching rumours and uncertainty which have been created largely as a result of what happened recently in Scotland, where another pit which had been the subject of substantial capital investment has been closed, apparently prematurely? Thirdly, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are many local authorities in mining areas who are becoming increasingly apprehensive at the substantial financial investment which they are being forced to make in the provision of houses, an investment which carries with it a high interest rate liability and which worries them considerably?

I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman did not see the announcement by the Coal Board, but I think he will now be satisfied that the rumours relating to this pit have been effectively scotched.

In view of his reply to my Question No. 11, does the Minister appreciate that meetings have been held in the district concerning the future of the mine and possible redundancies, which have been greatly publicised by the local Press? What consultations take place between the right hon. Gentleman's Department, the Board of Trade and the Ministry of Labour when redundancies are pending as a result of the closure of collieries?

I think I made clear in previous Answers to Questions that there is consultation, naturally, between the National Coal Board, on the one side, and my Department and the Board of Trade and other Departments, on the other, so that we can try to think ahead about this matter, but I am afraid that I cannot give the hon. Member, as he asks me in this Question, definite information. I think that this must be information for the chairman of the Board to give.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that if Wingate Pit closes, as he says—it will be next year, will it not?—that place will become completely derelict, and that there is no other industry available for those who will be displaced from employment? Does he not agree that surely a matter of this sort is not the exclusive property of the National Coal Board, but also a matter for the Government?

I do not think that the Board has made out that it is its exclusive property. I think it has already discussed it with the unions, and it has given me certain information about the possibility of closure, in order to enable me and my right hon. Friends to think ahead in the sense I was describing to the hon. Member just now.

asked the Minister of Power how many pits were closed in the county of Durham in the last five years; to what extent he was informed of consultations held under Section 46 of the Coal Industry Nationalisation Act, 1946, with the Durham Miners' Association on those closures; and what is the number of pits to be closed in the next five years in this area.

Sixteen since the beginning of 1957. The Board consults the unions and keeps me informed of what it has decided. It does not tell me of the details of its consultations with the unions. The number of pits to be closed in the next five years will depend on the circumstances of individual colleries and on the demand for coal.

If the right hon. Gentleman is suggesting that before any pits are closed the National Coal Board consults the National Union of Mineworkers and other organisations representing workers in the industry and that the views of the workers' representatives are taken into account, is the right hon. Gentleman never informed of what happens? Is he aware that Section 46 of the Act provided that the National Coal Board is compelled to consult representatives of workers and that the implication was that the Ministry was fully informed?

The right hon. Gentleman is, of course, quite right. The Act requires the Board to set up arrangements in the industry for these discussions. The arrangements exist and discussions take place. I am informed of the results of these discussions. What I am not informed of is exactly what detailed course the discussions take, and I do not see any reason why I should be informed of the details.

If the right hon. Gentleman is informed at any time by representatives of workers in the industry that they strongly object to the closing of certain pits, what action does he take?

In that case I would no doubt have conversations with the National Coal Board on the matter, but such representations have not been made to me.

asked the Minister of Power what information he has of the number of colliery closures which will take place due to shortage of manpower.

The Board has not so far had to close collieries because of shortage of labour and is not expecting to have to do so in future.

Does not the hon. Gentleman realise that there are to be pit closures because of the shortage of manpower? Ought he not to be informed of the position so that he can at least consult the Ministry of Labour before collieries are closed?

I must repeat the answer which I have already given—"The Board has not so far had to close collieries because of shortage of labour". The shortage of labour is only one aspect of the conditions at a colliery which are considered when a colliery is closed. Many other factors are considered. No pit has been closed for that reason alone.

While I agree that no pits have yet been closed owing to shortage of manpower, is the hon. Gentleman aware that in many areas there is considerable concern that this situation may be reached in the near future? Was it reported to him last week that in the South Western Division of the National Coal Board, which includes South Wales, during the past 17 weeks 777 men have left the industry and not been replaced? Does he realise that if that sort of thing goes on for very long pits will have to close because there will be no men left to work them?

Perhaps I might repeat the second half of my first answer—"The Board is not expecting to have to do so in the future". It is true that there is a serious manpower problem, but it is also true that if the men in the industry were properly distributed the problem would be a great deal less than it is. We are particularly conscious of the difficulties in Wales, and this is having, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, the serious attention of the National Coal Board.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that his view is quite contrary to that generally held in South Wales, and that the redeployment of manpower from one pit to another is also in contemplation? Will he and the right hon. Gentleman try to instil some confidence into the industry and persuade some of their colleagues on the Government benches to refrain from sending round rumours which are causing men to leave the industry?

The best way for the industry to regain that confidence is for it to show itself to be self-supporting and on the way up in productivity. That is happening. The productivity of the industry is higher now than the target for 1965. We believe that confidence will return to the industry when it is shown to be able to stand upon its own feet against all competition.

asked the Minister of Power what information he has received from the National Coal Board about the number of pits which will be closed in the English and Welsh divisions of the National Coal Board during 1962.

The National Coal Board has given me the information which it is now discussing with the unions concerned. It is for the Board and not for me to disclose this information.

How long does it take information from the National Coal Board to percolate to the House of Commons? There appears to be poor liaison in this matter, and I am not surprised by hon. Members' feelings about it. The right hon. Gentleman was boasting a moment ago of his skill as a co-ordinator. Is he co-ordinating with his Ministerial colleagues with a view to settling new industries in the areas which are becoming derelict in order to provide work for redundant miners?

I think that I am co-ordinating in almost every direction. The hon. Gentleman asked me how long it takes for information from the National Coal Board to percolate to the House of Commons If it is information which only the Board can give, then the percolation takes as long as it takes for individual members of this House to ask the chairman, when he will give the information, if he can.

asked the Minister of Power if, in view of the recent agreements which allow coalminers smokeless fuel in place of raw coal, he will give a general direction to the National Coal Board to ensure adequate supplies in the regions concerned from the operative date of 1st January, 1962.

No, Sir. This is a matter for the National Coal Board.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that already in the existing smokeless zones there are difficulties in procuring smokeless fuels? As local authorities are now creating more smokeless zones, is it not apparent to the Minister himself that something ought to be done at once to ensure supplies of smokeless fuels in those areas?

Supplies of smokeless fuels are generally adequate throughout the country, and no such difficulty is being encountered on a wide scale, though there are local shortages. In complying with the agreement to which the Question refers, the National Coal Board intends that where coal is replaced it should be wherever possible by coke from its own ovens.

asked the Minister of Power what steps he is taking to ensure adequate supplies of smokeless fuel in areas in which the Clean Air Act is in operation.

Supplies are adequate both generally and in the North-East, where the Northern Gas Board's revised plans for supplying Gloco should permit a considerable expansion of smoke control. A National Advisory Committee, including producers and distributors, of which I am chairman, keeps the prospects under review.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that when a local authority elects to proceed with the operation of the Clean Air Act, considerable frustration is engenderd by the lack of adequate supplies of smokeless fuel? Is it not possible for his Ministry to co-operate more closely with the local authorities and the National Coal Board?

There is continuous co-operation between the local authorities and the Ministry through the regional advisory committees on smokeless fuels. They are always consulted before any proposal for a smoke control area is approved. In this way we ensure that the establishment of areas does not go ahead faster than fuel supplies become available, and so far no proposal has been rejected.

When my hon. Friend suggests that supplies in the North-East are adequate, may I ask whether he recalls the recommendation of the Peach Committee that closed stoves should be installed in that area to burn locally produced hard coke, and whether he realises that there is strong aversion to the installation of these closed stoves in the area? Is my hon. Friend further aware that the Smokeless Fuels Federation mobile exhibition quite reasonably suggested that there should be greater use of smokeless fuel, but Warmco as produced by the National Coal Board was hardly available in the North-East?

As to the use of closed stoves buring hard coke, the Ministry of Housing has recently made these types of fires available for grants with a view to encouraging their use. The National Coal Board had high hopes of Warmco at one time, but these have been disappointed through technical difficulties.

asked the Minister of Power what applications he has received from the National Coal Board for increasing opencast coal production in Lancashire.

None, Sir.

I am very pleased to hear that. However, is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that certain farmers in the Goose Green area of Wigan have been told by the National Coal Board that their land will be requisitioned for opencast coal? Would he look into this?

The Board is negotiating for rights to prospect for possible sites. The Minister's agreement to this is required only when compulsory powers to prospect are sought, but the Board hopes to obtain the rights it requires by voluntary agreement.

asked the Minister of Power what has been the recruitment of juveniles into the coal mining industry over the last 12 months, and what has been the total wastage of all ages from the industry during the same period.

In the 52 weeks ended 11th November, recruitment of juveniles totalled 13,000 and wastage of all ages was 76,200.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that his and his right hon. Friend's complacency at the Dispatch Box when dealing with matters pertaining to the mining industry almost equals the smugness and complacency of the Prime Minister on the other major affairs of State? Is he also aware that the inability of the mining industry to encourage juveniles and young men to volunteer for service is causing great concern to everybody in it, both in the trade unions and on the managerial side? What is he or his right hon. Friend prepared to do to assist the industry in its recruitment campaign?

Far from our being complacent about the coal mining industry, the position in the industry is the cause of daily concern and consultation on our part. We are most anxious that the industry should go ahead vigorously, and everything towards that end is being done.

Then cancel the wage pause.

With regard to the recruitment of juveniles, the figures which I have given are higher than those for 1959 and 1960, though lower than those for the previous eight years. The number of men re-entering the industry has, however, shown a big increase, being higher than in any year since 1955, and total recruitment is better.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that last year I tried to do my very best to help the National Coal Board and the Ministry by going to Eton and delivering an earnest and eloquent plea to the students under the heading "Coal Mining as a Career"? I have had no results. Can the hon. Gentleman explain why?

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman's eloquence was not as successful as it normally is.

Perhaps the career was not sufficiently attractive.

asked the Minister of Power what information he has about the loss in production of coal from the East Midlands division of the National Coal Board owing to a shortage of manpower.

asked the Minister of Power what information he has about the loss in production of coal from the North Eastern division of the National Coal Board owing to a shortage of manpower.

The National Coal Board advises me that it is difficult to assess the tonnage involved, but there is a shortage of several thousand men in each division.

Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that the shortage of men in the East Midlands is attributable to the acute shortage of houses in the mining areas? What are he and the Government prepared to do to assist local authorities to overcome this great difficulty so that we in the East Midlands can encourage people from other parts of the country to come to the area and live there by building houses for them at the same time as we provide them with jobs?

The National Coal Board is anxious to increase production in these profitable coalfields. It is actively recruiting men, and it is encouraging the transference of men from declining coalfields. It is also negotiating with local authorities for the building of several thousand houses. As the hon. Gentleman is probably aware, the Board is paying special subsidies where local authorities have agreed to build such houses. In addition, it is itself building several thousand houses in these divisions through the Coal Industry Housing Association.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that we have here two of the most prolific coalmining areas in the world, let alone in this country, which are suffering a loss of output through the acute shortage of manpower? Is he further aware that the inroads being made into stocks are creating a perilous position, and that if those inroads continue it will become more serious?

We are well aware of the shortage of manpower in these productive areas. As I have said, the Board is taking active steps to recruit men. It is worth noting, however, that the output for both divisions during recent weeks has been running above the level of a year ago.

asked the Minister of Power if he will give a general direction to the National Coal Board to recruit more men to the coalmining industry.

No, Sir. The Board is already making every effort to recruit the men it needs.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the present drift of manpower from the industry and the difficulty of recruitment are generally recognised as being due in no small measure to the deep feeling of insecurity among miners about the future of the industry, which has been brought about, in my opinion, by the failure of the Government to plan the nation's economy in such a manner as to safeguard the industry against unwarrantable imports of alternative fuels from foreign sources? If we are to attract additional men, is it not time the Government changed their policy from a free-for-all to the more sensible one of safeguarding the welfare and the economy of the nation, particularly with regard to our fuel requirements, which can be met adequately from our indigenous sources?

The men in the industry need have no fear about its future. For a year or two output has been less than consumption, and so it is at the moment. What the country needs is more coal from the industry, not less.

asked the Minister of Power to what extent he is making a fresh reappraisal of the coalmining industry in relation to its output, manpower and economic production.

The National Coal Board and I have these matters under constant review, but I have nothing further to tell the House at present.

Is the Minister aware that the free-for-all policy now being pursued by the Government owing to back bench pressure is bringing chaos into the mining industry and undermining its morale? How can the chairman of the National Coal Board say that he is planning for 200 million tons of coal this year with declining manpower, and how can the Chancellor of the Exchequer control the national economy when he is subjected to pressure from outside the country?

The chairman of the National Coal Board realises that he will only attain his targets of output for next year and the years after with the fewer men he has in the mines by increasing output from each man. That is why he is pressing forward as quickly as possible with the mechanisation programme. I think that the hon. Gentleman will agree that recently it has been very successful.

asked the Minister of Power, in view of the fact that it is estimated that the power used in this country in 1965 will be 300 million tons of coal equivalent, what is the estimated tonnage that the coalmining industry is expected to produce for the years 1962, 1963, 1964, and 1965.

I cannot at present add to the information I gave the hon. Member on 17th July.

Will the hon. Gentleman make certain that any amount of coal produced for years ahead will not be put into stock? In the event of pressure from hon. Members on his side of the House to import coal, will he remind them that the National Coal Board was responsible for subsidising a difference in the price of imported coal of £3 or £4 a ton several years ago? Will he also remind hon. Members opposite that when this country was producing coal at 30s. a ton cheaper than on the Continent private industry never even said "thank you" to the National Coal Board?

I have no doubt that notice will be taken of what the hon. Gentleman has said, but that goes a little beyond his asking me for an estimate of the tonnage which the coal industry can produce. I was not clear where it was that he wanted this coal put. Was it in stock? If coal produced is not immediately consumed, there is little alternative to stocking it.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he has completed his inquiries into the fulfilment of the contracts awarded by his Department to Vernons Industries Ltd. of Kirkby; and if he will state the address in Kirkby at which Messrs. Vernons are completing the contracts.

The contracts were to have been completed for Vernons Industries Ltd at the Petbow Limited factory (formerly Vernons) at Kirkby; but Vernons Industries now informs me that, as Petbow has decided to close the Kirkby factory, the contracts will be completed by Petbow at Sandwich.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that, no doubt in all good faith, he gave misleading information to the House in his previous answer? In this case, Petbow took over Vernon's factory on 1st July and only four or five weeks later closed it down, despite all assurances, and transferred all the work on the Ministry of Aviation contracts—on which it had been given preference in order to give employment to Merseyside—to the South-East, and that this was done without the right hon. Gentleman's permission? Is he further aware that it was only after I took this up with him that he caught up with events and agreed retrospectively to allow the contracts to be transferred? In these circumstances, will he now direct an inquiry to be held, as I asked him to do in September?

I can assure the right hon. Gentleman—and I think he knows this—that I have not knowingly given misleading information. I have kept him fully informed of all the information in my possession. I understand the situation to be simply that once it was known that the factory was to be closed the workers very properly started to seek other employment. There were about 250 of them. By last week 115 had left to take up other employment, and since then 55 more have left. In these circumstances, it is difficult to see how the contracts could have been carried out.

Is it not clear that, apart from the problem of unemployment, which I have taken up with the Ministry of Labour, my information was several weeks ahead of the right hon. Gentleman's even though, when I gave him that information, he did not believe me? Is he now satisfied that the motive for the purchase of this factory was to get these contracts and the means of fulfilling them, and that they have now been transferred from the area in which they were awarded to another area? Will he now accept the suggestion I put to him many weeks ago, that in view of the rather dubious transactions that have taken place, he should have a full inquiry made? As I have already said, I entirely acquit him of knowingly misleading the House, but I do not acquit those concerned of having misled him.

I do not think that there was anything dubious about this. I believe that there was an honest intention to carry out the work until the end of the year, but as the workers were leaving the work could not be done. I am happy to say that the workers are finding fresh employment.

asked the Minister of Aviation when he proposes to bring in legislation to establish an airport authority, as proposed in Command Paper No. 1457 of August, 1961.

It is unlikely that there will be the necessary Parliamentary time for a Bill to establish an Airport Authority before the next Session.

As there is general agreement on the desirability of this move, is that a sufficient answer to give? Cannot the right hon. Gentleman go ahead with this straight away?

There is general agreement about the desirability of many moves, but it is not possible to put them all in the programme for one Session.

Will my right hon. Friend consult the Leader of the House to see if time could be found for this Measure? It is generally agreed by both sides [Interruption.]—let me finish—that the sooner London Airport is handed over to an independent authority the more efficient it will be. To think that it will not be handed over for another two years is the end.

I have no doubt that this exchange will reach the notice of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, but I can give no undertaking.

In view of the right hon. Gentleman's explanation of why this apparently genuine desire cannot be met in this Session, will he make it plain to the Leader of the House that if the Government were to stop the Immigration Bill they would surely have time for this Measure?

asked the Minister of Aviation how many Buccaneer strike aircraft have been ordered by the Federal German Government.

None, Sir.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Federal German Government were keenly interested in the Buccaneer? Is it true that to some extent the United States of America put pressure on the German Federal Republic to prevent it from buying the Buccaneer?

I have no such evidence.

asked the Minister of Aviation (1) if he has noted the recommendation of the Toothill Report that the case for a Scottish Airport authority should be examined; and if he will make a statement;

This interesting and important Report has only just reached me. I shall, of course, study it most carefully, but the hon. Member will not expect me to make any statement until I have finished doing so.

In view of that comprehensive but unsatisfactory reply—because the Report was issued last Wednesday—[Laughter.] I thought that the Parliamentary Secretary would be smart off the mark, being fresh—may I ask him what evidence, written, oral, or both, his Ministry was asked to give to the Toothill Committee?

I assure the hon. Member that I have been smart and fresh enough at least to read the relevant sections of the Report, but as it has been published only in the last few days, I am sure that he would agree that I have not had enough time to study the matter in detail. I cannot add anything now to my Answer, but I hope that it will be possible to make a statement on the Report before long.

On a point of order. Surely it is competent to ask the hon. Member what evidence—[HON. MEMBERS: "That is not a point of order."]—his Department was asked—

Would the hon. Member be good enough to indicate to me what he thinks is the point of order involved in that?

Surely if it is not exactly a point of order—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—I might ask the hon. Gentleman to answer that part of my question.

It may be that the hon. Member can do that, but not by rising with the words "On a point of order" when it is not a point of order.

Can I ask the hon. Member if he will say what evidence his Department was asked to supply to the Toothill Committee?

I cannot give an answer on specific evidence, but I can assure the hon. Member that we are constantly in touch with Mr. Toothill, who is the chairman of our Scottish Advisory Committee.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he has now reached a decision on the application of Newcastle-upon-Tyne Corporation for financial assistance in the development of Newcastle Airport.

asked the Minister of Aviation what decision he has reached on the future of Newcastle Airport to serve the North-East.

My right hon. Friend hopes to be able to reach a decision in the near future on the application made by the corporation of Newcastle-upon-Tyne for financial aid for its airport.

That is not good enough. How much longer is this delay to continue? Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that his Ministry has been putting us off with one excuse after another for ten years? Is he aware that Manchester Airport, for example, has received £1½ million since the war, while our airport has not received a single penny of public funds and has been developed by the ratepayers of Newcastle? Is he not aware that it fulfils a very important link in the national system of airways? Is it not about time that he did something to help us in the North-East?

I am aware that it has taken a long time, because it is a difficult and complex question. Traffic at Newcastle is considerably less than that at Manchester, but the reasons why it has taken such a long time are partly that, in consultation with the local authority, some modifications were introduced into the plan put to the Ministry, partly because the policy which was defined in the White Paper was finally formulated only in the course of this year, and partly because there are several local authorities with whom this matter has to be negotiated.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary judging this airport on its own merits or waiting until he has reached general decisions on other airports? Will he bear in mind that until this airport is brought up to the standard of a modern, efficient aerodrome, the traffic is not likely to increase as greatly as has that in Manchester?

Yes, Sir. Like every application of this kind, it is being judged entirely on its own merits in relation to the two criteria laid down in the White Paper.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind how long these negotiations have been taking place, and will he ask his right hon. Friend to get a move on, as it is vital to the industrial development of the North-East?

I am aware that it has taken a long time, and I will convey my hon. Friend's remarks to my right hon. Friend.

asked the Minister of Health what are the reasons for the delay in the construction of the new hospital at Wexham, Slough.

Work on the site has begun. I am not aware of any delay.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he may have come into office too recently to know of the long delay? In view of the urgency of this hospital, will he do his utmost to expedite its completion? Who is to bear the cost of the tremendous increase in expenditure which is due to the delay over several years?

Each year's expenditure has to be fitted into each year's programme, but I am anxious to see rapid progress made with this hospital.

asked the Minister of Health if he will state the numbers of plans for new or reconstructed children's wards in hospital which have received his approval during the last two years or are now under consideration; and what proportion of them have included provision for the accommodation of mothers with children under five years of age.

Seventy-five schemes for 131 new or reconstructed wards have been approved and 27 schemes for 44 wards are under consideration. Forty-four schemes make specific provision for mothers of children under five.

What steps has the right hon. Gentleman taken to ensure that in all future plans such provision is made, and what action has he taken, when approving the plans for those hospitals which did not make such provision, to try to get them to change their plans?

This provision will not be required in every case, because some of these wards are not specifically for the youngest children. Indeed, I consider this proportion quite reasonable.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the response to this recommendation of the Platt Report has been disappointing? Can he not at least tell hospital authorities that he will not approve schemes involving wards for younger children where no provision is made for a certain number of mothers to attend as well?

I do not think that there can be an absolute rule on this matter. If the hon. Gentleman studies the figures, I think he will see that considerable provision is being made in the current proposals.

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that several local authorities have experienced a shortage of polio vaccine during the past month, with consequent delays in vaccinations; and what steps are being taken to provide an adequate supply.

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that a sufficient supply of anti-polio vaccine is not available throughout the whole of the county of Durham; what action he is taking to increase supplies; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that anti-polio vaccine stocks in Durham are very low and that fresh supplies are not expected till January; and if he will take immediate steps to see that the present stocks are increased.

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the city of Newcastle-upon-Tyne has insufficient stocks of poliomyelitis vaccine to meet requirements; and if he will take steps to ensure that further supplies of this vaccine are made available.

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that supplies of poliomyelitis vaccine are insufficient to carry out vaccinations required in Newcastle-upon-Tyne; and if he will ensure adequacy of supplies throughout the country.

I am aware that supplies to authorities have been less than the amounts requested. All available sources are being drawn on and a material improvement is expected in the next few weeks. Meanwhile if a local authority has particular difficulty I will see if I can help.

Will the Minister say what preparations have been made to get a reserve of this vaccine in certain areas so that when an epidemic occurs an area can be supplied immediately instead of having to wait for a supply?

The primary use of this vaccine is as routine immunisation. I do not think that it would have much immediate relevance to an epidemic, Orders have been placed, and I expect the supply position to be reasonably satisfactory in the fairly near future.

Is the Minister aware that there were two recent notified cases quite near my own home and that the parents were much concerned when they were informed that no vaccine was available, and that it was found on inquiry that none was available throughout the whole of the country? Is that the way to treat our young people when these infections are prevalent in an area?

That is not in accordance with my information. Several consignments have recently been sent to County Durham.

Why do people have to be frightened to death before anything is done? Do not the people deserve better treatment and better protection? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a general feeling in the country that be has fallen down on his job and is responsible for the present position? Will he clearly tell the House whether he expects any more vaccine so that there may be supplies available for the whole country?

There will be further supplies next month, and I expect the position to be relatively normal in January. Meanwhile, wherever any local authority has a particular difficulty, I should be glad to learn of it, for I may be able to help.