asked the Minister of Works whether he will now make a further statement on the proposal to remove the museum from the Banqueting Hall, Whitehall.

asked the Minister of Works if he is now able to make a statement about the future of the Banqueting Hall, Whitehall.

The Royal United Service Institution has expressed its readiness to vacate the Banqueting House. Her Majesty The Queen has approved and has granted the use of the Banqueting House to the Government.

Is the Minister aware that there will be general satisfaction on both sides of the House at his Answer? Can the right hon. Gentleman say what arrangements have been made for furnishing the building in its new rôle?

I shall have to consider the details of what to suggest with regard to that. The first stage is to know that one is able to get in there, and I should like to take this opportunity, as I am sure the House would like me to, to thank the Institution for its great co-operation over this. No one could leave the Banqueting House without reluctance, and I am deeply grateful to the Institution. It will, of course, be continuing its educational work from its adjacent headquarters.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that this result is the outcome of a very long cherished wish on the part not only of his own Department at present but of his predecessors in it as first Commissioners of Works that this historic and great building should come to a worthy use with the free acquiescence, of course, of those who are now giving up their Royal Charter? Is not the Council of the Royal United Service Institution deserving of some thanks for the action it has now taken?

I am most grateful to my hon. Friend for what he has said, and I entirely agree.

Can my right hon. Friend give the House any notion of what is to become of the contents of the museum and can we be assured that they will be kept together and be not much less accessible to the public than they have been?

That is entirely a matter for the Royal United Service Institution.

In that case, then, my right hon. Friend can—

Order. We have spent as much time as we can on that.

asked the Minister of Works whether he will take steps to see that the new building to be erected in Broad Sanctuary is faced with stone of a quality fitting to its surroundings.

I have invited the architect whose design was placed first in the competition to submit proposals for the use of stone and to estimate the additional cost involved. I will consider the matter when I receive these proposals.

asked the Minister of Works to what extent the capital works of his Department have been reduced or slowed down in the last six months as a contribution to the overall policy of Her Majesty's Government.

There has been a reduction of over 4 per cent. in the original programme of capital works for 1962–63.

Has any reduction been made in the capital development for the current year? Is the Minister aware that the country as a whole has been led to believe that we are in such a mess that everyone has to make his contribution to getting us out of it; and that we should like to know whether his Department is making such a contribution this year?

Yes, Sir. I am giving what help I can in that direction.

asked the Minister of Works for what reason the Prince of Wales' Gate in Hyde Park was closed; and why this exit from the Park was not available to traffic for a long time, in view of the fact that the traffic notices described the closure as temporary.

The gate was closed for repairs to the road surface which have taken longer than expected, partly due to unfavourable weather. I hope to re-open the gate on 1st February.

Is not my right hon. Friend aware that the closing of this gate caused great disruption of traffic? It took place just about a fortnight before Christmas. Will he see that a suitable "rocket" is given to the contractors concerned?

I am very sorry that this work has taken as long as it has. It has been a great nuisance, but I am glad to say that it is nearly at an end.

asked the Minister of Works what progress he has made with the rebuilding of the Bernhard Baron Pavilion in Regent's Park.

I have approved a design which is acceptable to the Royal Fine Art Commission. I hope that, subject to the availability of funds, the work can begin next autumn and be completed by the end of 1963.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that his reply will give great satisfaction to many organisations and individuals who have been deeply concerned at the long delay in rebuilding this pavilion? When the pavilion is rebuilt and fit for use, will my right hon. Friend take steps to see that the running track and ground around it in Regent's Park is fit for greater use than at present?

I will bear in mind what my hon. Friend has said.

asked the Minister of Works what progress has been made in the repair work on Kensington Palace; and whether the work will be completed by the end of the current financial year.

A contract has been let. The work will begin shortly and is expected to take about twelve months.

Does the Minister recognise that an announcement was made yesterday by his Department about the extravagantly increased expenditure on this house? Is this part of that contribution he is making to the solution of our national economic problems of which he spoke in answer to Question No. 3? Does he not think it a deplorable priority sense that at this time, when there are thousands of homeless in London, this kind of money should be spent on this apartment?

I do not believe that I should be making any contribution at all to the national interests if I let a building like this deteriorate any further. It has been deteriorating for over twenty years, and it is high time something was done to restore it.

Is any contribution being made by the prospective tenants, in view of the fact that they appear to be fairly amply provided for both publicly and privately—

I think that supplementary question is out of order.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. What is out of order in my supplementary question?

I thought that the hon. and learned Gentleman's supplementary question implied, in its use of the adverb "amply" a reflection upon the occupants of that building. That is why I thought that it was out of order.

With great respect, Mr. Speaker, is it out of order to ask whether a contribution is being made by the prospective tenants, in view of the fact that provision is being made for them by this House and, as we learn, by private contract?

If, by the use of the adverb, the hon. and learned Gentleman was not making the type of reflection I thought he was, I accept it entirely from him and, in that event, the supplementary question is not out of order.

The answer is, as was stated in the relevant notice to the Press, that private contribution will be forthcoming above the sum of £85,000 so long as this is not the result of what we call building hazards. If we find dry rot or anything we do not know is there, that would not rank for private contribution; anything else would.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that no one has suggested that this building should be allowed to remain in its present state; that what we are complaining of is that it is to be used to house someone who is already housed—and that in a city where there are thousands of people still waiting for houses but with no prospect of getting them?

I must answer for what I am constitutionally responsible, and nothing else. It has nothing to do with me what use is made of grace-and-favour buildings. I am responsible, as far as I can be, for putting a building like this into repair, and I am sure that it is right to do it now rather than to wait longer.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the extremely unsatisfactory nature of those replies, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Works what improvements he intends to make at the Alexandra Gate of Hyde Park, near the Albert Memorial, in order to relieve traffic congestion.

None, Sir, at present.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that this is one of the worst bottlenecks in London at present? Is there not a good deal of room for a roundabout to be put there, and will he look at this problem, which has been outstanding for a long time?

I am aware that my hon. Friend and others have given considerable thought to this problem, but I think he would agree that it is better now to wait until the Park Lane scheme comes into operation, as that may be very relevant to what we do there.

asked the Postmaster-General if he will state the number of applicants for telephones in Aberdeen who are on the waiting list; and what steps he is taking to reduce this number.

In the City of Aberdeen there were 109 applications on the waiting list at 31st December, and a further 233 under inquiry or in course of being met. Most of these applicants live on new housing estates.

Is not that a terrible confession of failure by the Postmaster-General? Does he realise that the engineering labour force is inadequate to meet current needs, that his failure to remedy the men's grievances can only lead to further delay in providing the service required; and that he owes a duty, not only to the men in his service but to the business community to see that the telephone service is maintained to its fullest extent? Will he take steps to that end?

I have not the exact figures by me, Mr. Speaker, but I should be very surprised if there were more than one or two business people in the City of Aberdeen waiting for telephones. As for a confession of failure, I should like to say to the hon. and learned Gentleman that the present waiting list represents less than half of 1 per cent. of the total number of people in the City of Aberdeen who have telephones.

asked the Postmaster-General what action he proposes to take to assist old people living alone with the cost of their telephones where this involves financial hardship.

I have considered this idea sympathetically on several occasions and I should very much like to respond to the hon. Lady's suggestion, but the practical difficulties are very real—I will write to the hon. Member about them—and I am afraid I cannot at present agree to differential charges.

Is the Postmaster-General aware that being able to get in touch quickly by telephone with family and friends—or, in an emergency, with the doctor or the police—plays a very large part in enabling elderly people to live happily and safely alone; and that many are now being forced to give up the telephone because of the increased cost? The right hon. Gentleman says that he has looked at the question several times, but would he please look at it again? If he did, I am quite certain that he would find a way round the problem, and help these people who most need it.

As the hon. Lady knows, the difficulty here is to know where to draw the line. If this concession were to be made to elderly people who are housebound and living alone I am quite sure that we should get demands for similar concessions from the disabled, the blind, charitable organisations, and so forth. But I am perfectly ready at any time to discuss this quite freely with the hon. Lady.

May I press on the Postmaster-General that despite the difficulties, of which I am quite aware, there is a real case for re-examination here? I myself have received quite a number of letters which lead me to believe that many of these old people are denying themselves the basic essentials of life in order to retain this, the only contact they have with relatives and friends. Would he be prepared to discuss with some of us the possibility of starting this, on a limited scale first of all, and, if that is possible, to see how it could be enlarged?

I have already referred to some of the practical difficulties, but I also implied that my mind is certainly riot closed on this very human problem.

asked the Postmaster-General, whether emergency calls from country telephone subscribers, obliged to dial O in order to make them, have been delayed by the policy of work-to-rule; and what effect it has had on the time taken for a call to reach the police, fire and ambulance services.

I am glad to say that the telephone service has not been significantly affected by work-to-rule, and I have no knowledge of any delays to emergency calls of the type mentioned by my hon. Friend. If, however, he has any particular case in mind and will let me have details I should be very glad to make inquiries.

Can my right hon. Friend explain how such callers in need of the fire brigade or the ambulance or police are given priority over callers who merely want a gossip?

Whether or not we had working-to-rule in operation at the moment, it would still be necessary on certain exchanges for a person wanting to make an emergency call to dial O. It is after a caller has dialled O and the operator knows that the call is an emergency call that priority is given.

Will the right hon. Gentleman, in the light of his hon. Friend's supplementary question, consider further whether it is possible for this way of signalling for priority and emergency services to be introduced on private telephones and even on manual exchanges?

Yes, most certainly, we are moving in that direction all the time.

asked the Postmaster-General what progress has been made in the design of the new telephone kiosk.

I have obtained some of the prototypes of a new kiosk designed by Mr. Neville Conder which I propose to put on trial. With the agreement of the authorities of the House, one will be placed in the Upper Waiting Hall this coming weekend for Members to see, and others will be available for public use from Monday next at Grosvenor Gardens and at the rear of the Royal Exchange.

While regretting that my right hon. Friend has not found a site in Acton for one of these prototypes, can he say over what period of time he is proposing to spread the replacement of existing telephone kiosks if this new one proves successful? Can he give us some information, either now or next week, when we get a sight of the new one, about costs, so that when we assess the aesthetic and functional advantages of the new kiosk we can have some idea of assessing the value for money which it represents?

I will see what I can do about Acton. There is no intention that these new kiosks should be put in place of existing ones within a very short period. The fact of the matter is that this new kiosk is very much more expensive than the old ones. If they are to be adopted for further general use over a period of years, they will have to be put mainly in the new call offices and in replacement of kiosks which are more or less obsolete.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, when replacing these kiosks, he will pay some tribute to his predecessor, Fred Jowett, who introduced them and who obtained the greatest co-operation of the leading architects in this country, including Sir Edwin Lutyens, in designing them?

Most certainly.

asked the Postmaster-General whether he will now make permanent the suspension of mail deliveries on Christmas Day.

My right hon. Friend intends to review the future of the Christmas Day deliveries as soon as the results of last year's experiment have been collected and analysed; and he will make an announcement as soon as he can.

Can my hon. Friend say whether so far there has been any violent reaction to the suspension of deliveries on Christmas Day?

No, we have had no serious complaint about the suspension of deliveries.

asked the Postmaster-General what surplus he anticipates on the Post Office General Account, and on postal and telecommunications accounts, respectively, at the end of the current financial year on the basis of prices, rates of pay, and tariffs current on 1st December, 1961.

I estimate a surplus of about £17 million in the current financial year of which about £15 million will come from telecommunications. These figures do not take into account the effect of working to rule, since the duration of this is not yet known.

asked the Postmaster-General what new arrangements his Department has made for the handling of parcels into and out of the West Riding.

Experimental road services carrying parcels between Leeds and Manchester, and between a number of towns in the West Riding, have been introduced. These are part of a study of ways of improving the parcel post service, and follow on a recommendation of a study group which my right hon. Friend set up to advise on the handling and conveyance of mails between Post Offices.

Is the hon. Lady aware that so far these arrangements have given considerable satisfaction in the West Riding and that the activities of herself and of her Department are in striking contrast in this matter to the inactivity of the Minister of Transport and of Dr. Beeching?

We are watching this experiment very closely.

asked the Postmaster-General, if the study group, appointed in July, 1960, to find out whether the arrangements for the handling and conveyance of mails between post offices were the most efficient and economical that could be devised, has yet reported; and what were its recommendations.

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply my right hon. Friend gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr. Walker) on 3rd August, 1961. Copies of the study group's Report are available in the Libraries of both Houses.

asked the Postmaster-General what estimate he has made of the effect upon the national economy by the Post Office workers' policy of work-to-rule.

I regret that work-to-rule has brought about some deterioration of Post Office services. My aim has been to keep this to a minimum and, while some businesses have been affected, I do not think that there has been any significant effect on the national economy as a whole.

While most people regret the methods chosen by the Post Office workers, is my right hon. Friend aware that the public are very grateful indeed for the efforts made to carry on the service?

Surely the Postmaster-General cannot accept all the implications of that supplementary question? Is he aware that many people amongst the Post Office workers and others are satisfied that if he himself had not been so stubborn and intractable over this issue there would have been possible a compromise means of coming to some interim settlement of these disputes between the Union of Post Office Workers and the Post Office Engineering Union, and that there is a general feeling in the country that he has been sitting back and has not been active enough?

First, I should like to say that I am indeed grateful to the public and to the business community in particular for the forbearance that they have shown in the last three weeks. As to my attitude to this claim, I have always sought to avoid provocation. I have at all times sought to be reasonable. But, having said that, I have also sought to be firm and I shall continue to be firm.

asked the Postmaster-General what is his estimate of the increased expenditure to date in overtime payments, employment of temporary staff, and diversion of mails, resulting from his dispute with the trade unions.

About £¼ million.

There is a lot of noise in the Chamber. Did I gather that the figure is £¼ million?

indicated assent.

Is it not absolutely ridiculous, from the point of view of economy, that the Postmaster-General is spending more money on maintaining a less efficient service in the Post Office entirely due to the Government's obstinate refusal to discuss wages in a reasonable manner?

No, the hon. Gentleman takes far too parochial a view. A quarter of a million pounds, or even ten times that amount, is really a row of beans compared with the damage to the national economy that my submission to pressure might involve.

Is it not a fact that the right hon. Gentleman has denied the unions concerned the right to negotiate on the disputes between the various departments and themselves? He is seeking to force them to arbitration on conditions that he himself is imposing, and, in fact, he is acting precisely in the same way towards Post Office workers as his right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport has been trying to do with regard to the transport workers.

No, Sir. The claim of the union of Post Office workers, as the hon. Gentleman well knows, was based on comparisons with all outside manufacturing industries. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] Because that is not the basis upon which Civil Service pay is determined. It is determined on the basis of fair comparisons with outside employment. Therefore, I took the view that the claim was not established. The basis of fair comparisons, which is the accepted method of determining Civil Service pay, is at present being worked out by the Pay Research Unit. I have said repeatedly that once that information is available I shall be prepared to negotiate, but that if the union is not prepared so to wait, then I will be willing to join with it in an application for arbitration. The union is opposed to both of these courses. What it is insisting upon is an interim payment in advance of the end of the pause, and that is something to which I cannot agree.

I feel sure that the right hon. Gentleman would wish to be fair with the House on a dispute of this sort. I sincerely hope that, in response to what I am about to ask him, he will issue a White Paper reproducing the correspondence and the notes relating to all the agreed discussions that have taken place with the respective unions, in order that this House can itself assess the relative values of the arguments of the Postmaster-General and the unions. If the right hon. Gentleman does that, will he also give us an opportunity to debate the whole issue in this House?

I think it would be a most unusual course to issue a White Paper while a dispute is still in progress, but I shall be content to discuss that with the hon. Gentleman at the end of these proceedings.

asked the Postmaster-General what is his estimate of the loss of revenue to date from cancellation of parcel post and other measures resulting from his dispute with the trade unions.

I estimate the loss of revenue on posts at about £¾ million, but of course this will be partially offset by increased revenue from telephones.

Is this another row of beans? Is it not absolutely clear that sooner or later the Postmaster-General has got to negotiate wages with the postal workers? In the interests of the national economy and of most people in the country, and in order to avoid this wastage, ought it not to be sooner rather than later?

It may well be that the time will presently come when we shall be able to resume discussions, but what I have been trying to make clear is that those discussions cannot be resumed while industrial action of this sort is in progress or on terms dictated to me by the trade unions concerned.

asked the Postmaster-General whether working rules for Post Office employees are being revised.

Come on. Working to rule?

I do not.

asked the Secretary for Technical Co-operation if he will now make a statement on the future development of the overseas information services.

I have been asked to reply.

Is the Minister aware that this represents a welcome retreat from the position taken by the Secretary for Technical Co-operation on his last appearance, no doubt, in response, we hope, to the pressure of the Opposition? Is not the Minister aware that when allowance has been made for costs, this still means a considerable cut in the activities of our overseas information services? Is it not rather a strange moment to cut these services when our influence and reputation abroad have been damaged by the Government's policies?

I do not think the hon. Gentleman is fair. When my right hon. Friend answered the Question on 19th December, he said that the issue of risen costs remained to be decided, and that is a very important part of the Answer I have given. As well as the cuts overseas, to which he has referred, and which are in response to my right hon. and learned Friend's call in July, there have been increases at home.

Is not my hon. Friend aware that in services like these, sudden changes of policy like a cut one year and an increase the next, are very harmful to these services? Will he do what he can to maintain an even flow?

Certainly. I do not know that one even wishes to keep an even flow. I hope we can continue to expand these services, but that, like so many other desirable developments, depends on economic progress.

Is the Minister aware that, in practice, certain projects, like those of the British Council, were actually begun and have had to be suddenly closed, with a great loss of good will as a result?

Some of the savings in overseas expenditure announced recently will be met by the Council, partly by postponing things which it intended to do rather than by stopping existing work, but generally the Council will share in next year's increases.

asked the Secretary for Technical Co-operation whether he has yet received the report of the working party on the British Broadcasting Corporation's overseas services.

I have been asked to reply.

Is the Minister aware that, as far as they go, these announcements are welcome? Can he say what the total budget for broadcasting will be in the coming year?

No; I am afraid I cannot give the exact figure at the moment.

asked the President of the Board of Trade which foreign countries treat United Kingdom exports more favourably than exports of countries which are not contracting parties to the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade.

The information is not available. Our main competitors are all contracting parties and our exports are treated in general as favourably as theirs.

Will my hon. Friend, therefore, say what is the advantage of belonging to this organisation compared with the sixty-odd countries which now do not belong to it?

The G.A.T.T. secures us fair treatment in overseas markets, safeguards us against unfair discrimination, is a forum for the discussion of fair practice, and is constantly seeking successfully to reduce tariffs. As a major international trading country, these are all to our advantage.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs if he will now publish his provisional conclusions on the inspectors' report on the public local inquiry held to consider the revision of the London County Council Development Plan.

My right hon. Friend hopes to publish his provisional conclusions early in February.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs what estimate he has made of the saving in staffs of Metropolitan, borough and district councils in the Greater London area which might result from the amalgamation of councils as proposed in the White Paper.

The new London boroughs will be responsible for important services now provided by the county councils and this, as well as the amalgamations, will affect the staffing requirements. These cannot be reliably forecast at this stage.

Can my hon. Friend say when a reliable forecast can be made? Otherwise, how are we to judge between the White Paper proposals and the proposals of the Royal Commission?

The Royal Commission dealt with this question of economy in staff and other matters, and pointed out that the best guarantee of economy is the provision of efficient and effective local government areas. That is our purpose.

Is the Minister aware that there is considerable anxiety amongst many local government officers likely to be affected by the plan for the reorganisation of London local government, and will he consult with his right hon. Friend on the desirability of giving firm assurances in the cases of any officers displaced who cannot find comparable appointments outside the London area, that adequate compensation will be paid to them?

We well appreciate that point and my right hon. Friend has it very much in mind, but I ought to make it clear, as my right hon. Friend did to my hon. Friend the Member far Ealing, North (Mr. Barter) before Christmas, that any legislation would, of course, provide for proper compensation on loss of employment or reduction in pay.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will now make a statement on his proposed new Constitution for Northern Rhodesia; and on what principles it is to be based.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a statement about the Northern Rhodesia Constitution.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will now give particulars of proposed constitutional changes in Northern Rhodesia; and when they are to be introduced.

I have nothing to add to the reply given by my right hon. Friend on 19th December.

Is the Under-Secretary aware that there is great public dismay because this statement has been made as a result of a split between the Ministers responsible, which has now been revealed for the whole world to see? How long is this to be held up? How long are the interests of Rhodesians to be sacrificed because of a feud in the Tory ranks? Does the Under-Secretary know that it now appears that his right hon. Friends have lost control?

No; that is absolutely untrue. I read everything which is written, including some of the speeches made by my noble Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Viscount Lambton). Of course, I recognise the need for an early decision on this matter. I am sure that there will be one available to the House and the country soon.

Did not the Government make what we were given to understand and what Northern Rhodesia was given to understand was their final decision in the summer of 1961? Has not the result of the Government's shilly-shallying since then and their apparent reopening of that final decision been to lead extremists in Northern Rhodesia to believe that the Government can be blackmailed and to encourage them to resort to violence and terrorism?

No, Sir; that simply is not true. What we said, and said quite correctly, in September was that we should review the situation, especially in certain sectors of what had been proposed by Her Majesty's Government. I believe that that is perfectly proper, and the review has been carried out.

Does the hon. Gentleman recognise that this crisis in Northern Rhodesia may be determined upon issues between African and European populations over a large part of the continent? Will he convey to his right hon. Friend the desire of many of us in the House that the Northern Rhodesia issue may soon be settled and that the great African majority in that community will feel that it has been dealt with justly by the Government?

This will be settled, I believe, in the best interests of the communities as a whole and of the territory as a whole.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the fact that knowledge of what is happening in Africa is confined to this side of the House illustrates the extraordinary paucity of the Opposition?

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a statement on his official visit to The West Indies.

My right hon. Friend does not return until 28th January from The West Indies, where discussions are still proceeding.

In view of the regrettable vote by Jamaica against federation, will the hon. Gentleman convey to his right hon. Friend the desire of very many in the House that federation may still be established between Trinidad and neighbouring West Indian islands and extended to British Guiana in South America, and will he seek to facilitate an arrangement by which such a Federation might have independence at the date originally planned for the wider Federation?

These are precisely the sort of problems which my right hon. Friend is now discussing. Of course, there are much more intimate and individual problems with which he has to cope during his visit to The West Indies.