asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he has now considered the resolutions, copies of which have been sent to him by the hon. and learned Member for Aberdeen, North, passed at the meetings held in Glasgow on 23rd November, 1961, and in Edinburgh on 24th November, 1961, of the Association of Scientific Workers concerning the salary agreements recently negotiated by the Whitley Council on behalf of the medical laboratory technicians of Scotland; and if he will now take immediate steps to implement these agreements.

I have seen these resolutions. The agreed salaries will operate from 1st April.

Does not the Secretary of State realise that failure to honour these resolutions is shockingly inconsistent with the orderly economic system built up in the country over generations? Will he look into the matter with a view to seeing that these agreements properly arrived at are duly honoured by the Government?

I do not think that I can add to my original Answer.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will introduce legislation to permit the stocking of further lochs in Scotland with fish as an additional attraction for tourists and to establish the controls necessary to prevent irresponsible depletion of the stocks.

The improvement of fishing in Scottish lochs, by stocking or other means, is primarily for the owners of the fishings; and the Scottish Tourist Board is prepared to assist in certain circumstances. The question of control will, no doubt, be considered by the committee on Scottish salmon and trout fisheries which I am appointing.

Is not the Secretary of State aware that the greatest handicap here is that once the lochs are stocked, they may be irresponsibly poached instead of fished in accordance with proper regulations? Does he agree that it would be no hardship to the general public if this were done in the ordinary way that anglers have on rivers, in which case the money could be spent on stocking? Would not this be a great attraction to tourists?

Doubtless, that is one of the matters which the committee on Scottish salmon and trout fisheries will consider.

Is the Secretary of State aware of the very great importance in this whole matter of research, especially research into trout fisheries? Does he not think that it was clearly proved in the Report of his Department last year that the bias is now towards salmon and away from trout research, and will not this be very deplorable especially for the Scottish hill lochs?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman knows of the very valuable work which goes on at the Freshwater Fisheries Laboratory. I am not aware of what he refers to in the latter part of his supplementary question, but I will look at it.

Does the right hon. Gentleman think it good enough that this tremendous potential tourist asset which could bring tens of thousands of pounds to Scotland is left to the whims of a few private owners to determine whether or not it should be developed?

I know very well that many owners are prepared to co-operate with the Scottish Tourist Board and with hoteliers to improve lochs. There is the difficult question of poaching to which the right hon. Member for East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn) referred; that has to be considered, and will be.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what success has followed the Scottish Hydro-Electric Board's work on the artificial expansion of salmon breeding; and whether it has proved practicable to stock additional rivers.

Some rivers affected by the Board's operations have been stocked with eggs and fry and the Board has carried out experiments in the rearing and planting of smolts. It considers that preliminary results are satisfactory. The artificial stocking of other rivers is a matter for the proprietors and district boards concerned.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say when we may expect to have evidence of the success or otherwise of this very valuable development, and will he give publicity to the work which is being done so that it may become known throughout the country?

I understand that a reliable assessment cannot be made until four or five years after the smolts have migrated to the sea. I take the right hon. Gentleman's second point well. Publicity should be given to the result.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many local authorities operated rent rebate schemes in the financial years 1956, 1959 and 1961; and what was the total amount rebated in each of the above years.

In 1956, 37 local authorities operated rent rebate schemes and the total annual amount of rebates granted was estimated to be £11,259. The corresponding figures for 1959 are 55 and £237,900, and for 1961 56 and £198,500.

Is not the enormous increase in the rent rebates being given by local authorities a direct result of the rent increases which the Secretary of State has forced them to make as a result of the high interest charges which are the responsibility of the Government? Will he consider making substantial increases in the subsidies paid to local authorities in order to ease the burden on the lower-paid workers?

When the hon. Gentleman has had time to digest the figures I gave, he will see that his conclusions are not correct. Only the figures for 1959 and 1961 are comparable, and he will note that less was rebated in 1961 than in 1959.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will now give his consent to off-sales licences granted by the Licensing Courts in State management districts.

It is my practice to examine on its merits each application for any authority to sell liquor in a State management district to see whether special circumstances exist which would justify my granting it.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that Answer, but may I ask whether he could say what he is trying to prove by the State management experiment? Is he trying to show that the Scottish Office is at least capable of running a pub? Does not he think that things are managed better in England? If Woolworth's wish to sell drink in England, the matter is left to a licensing court. Why should my right hon. Friend incur political opprobrium by turning down an off-licence certificate to the Wholesale Co-operative Society in a State management district?

Unfortunately, I find that in many of my functions I have to incur political opprobrium. The answer to the point raised by my hon. Friend would involve going into very deep waters, if that is the correct description in this connection. I do not think that Question Time is the time to go into the matter in full.

Is not the Secretary of State aware that these licensed premises and hotels have played a very satisfactory part in the life of the local communities in which they exist? It must seem a little strange, even to the right hon. Gentleman, that his hon. Friends are so greedy and grasping and want to get for their own private interests profits which should go to the State.

I am convinced that anything for which I am responsible is run very well and fulfils a useful purpose, but I think that the hon. Gentleman will agree that there are strong conflicting views about the desirability of State management.

It may be that they are well run, but why should these districts be treated in a way totally different from any other district in Scotland? Surely this experiment should be allowed to have some healthy competition within it when my right hon. Friend's own local licensing courts agree that there should be such competition.

I am afraid that to answer all these supplementary questions would take me much more time than is permissible at Question Time.

On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many ambulances in Midlothian are operated by one man only; and if he will make it compulsory for each ambulance to have two men in attendance.

Normally all of them. But an attendant is provided if requested by the general practitioner and the majority of emergency calls are dealt with by ambulances from Edinburgh which are normally double-manned.

Is the Secretary of State aware that many ambulances, when they go to pick up patients, are manned by one man? When they go to pick up stretcher cases, that man must beg assistance from the public. I know of a case in which a fifteen-stone man was involved and where the man driving the ambulance had to get his wife to help to carry the man out. Would not the right hon. Gentleman look at this matter again and ensure that ambulances are manned by two men instead of one?

If the general practitioner requests a second man, that man is, as far as I know, almost invariably provided. What the hon. Gentleman may not appreciate is that 80 per cent. of ambulance cases are sitting cases. It would not be sensible or practicable to provide two men for every case.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that the general practitioner is not always involved? In a case involving an accident which I have drawn to the attention of the right hon. Gentleman's Department, when the ambulance arrived there was only one man, the driver, in it. No one can blame him. Could not we have a service under which two men are sent with an ambulance to prevent trouble?

As I said in my Answer, the majority of emergency cases are dealt with by ambulances which are double-manned. I am investigating the case to which the hon. Gentleman refers and hope to write to him very soon about it.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he proposes taking to overcome the growing shortage of teachers required to meet existing educational needs and the additional shortages which will accrue from educational developments such as raising the school age, reducing the maximum size of classes and introducing compulsory part-time education.

I have written to the three main teaching bodies asking them to discuss with me this serious problem for which there is no single or simple answer. I shall also meet other bodies. After these consultations, I shall consider what further steps may be taken.

Does the Secretary of State realise the magnitude of the task which faces him in the next ten or twelve years? I hope that he will take a long view—and also a short view—of this problem. Does he realise that, if he is to meet the needs of teaching alone as expressed in his fourth Departmental Report, he must obtain at least 12,000 teachers in the next ten years and that to do this he must be prepared to spend money at a rate and in a quantity which he has never before attained?

Of course, I am fully aware of the gravity of this problem, but I am not convinced that money is by any means the only issue involved in solving it.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he has reviewed the fire-fighting services in Hawick since the fires in mills in 1959; and if he intends to establish a full-time manned fire station in the burgh.

I have been discussing with the South-Eastern Fire Area Joint Committee the need for whole-time firemen in the burgh and I await its proposals. The number of pumping appliances at the station has been increased and their pumping capacity has doubled.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for the increase in the number of pumping machines in the area, and while appreciating the high standard of the volunteer firemen in Hawick, may I ask him whether he will ask his advisers to consider that, if there were a big fire in a mill in Hawick and at the same time another in Galashiels where the major full-time force is maintained, great difficulty would arise? Will my right hon. Friend consider that point in the discussions which are proceeding?

I will certainly see that that point is borne in mind.

Is the Secretary of State aware that some firemen in the rural and outlying districts consider that they are ill-equipped in that they have not enough skilled people and that, while ordinary people can help very greatly in putting out fires, unless there are enough skilled and trained men in the brigades, great danger may result? The members of fire brigades complain that there is a deficiency in skilled men because of competition from other better paid trades.

That may be, but I think the right hon. Gentleman will join me in paying a high tribute to the part-time men for the invaluable work that they do.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has now made to British European Airways concerning the Toot-hill Committee's suggestions on the improvement of air services in Scotland, in order to further industrial growth.

I have asked my right hon. Friend the Minister of Aviation to consider the Toothill Committee's suggestions. B.E.A.'s present plans for its summer services provide for the use of larger aircraft and increased capacity on Scottish routes.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that Answer, which gives some encouragement. Has he pointed out in his representations that dissatisfaction with the air services in Scotland is not by any means a new thing and that a large number of British chambers of commerce, not least that in my constituency, the Aberdeen Chamber of Commerce, have constantly made representations about the importance of better air services? Has my right hon. Friend any hope that there will be an improvement in the winter months as well as in the summer schedules?

I cannot forecast what will happen in the winter months, but I should tell my hon. Friend that the schedules have been sent to the Scottish Advisory Committee for Civil Aviation, to the Scottish Council, and to the Scottish chambers of commerce for comment.

I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not forget the needs of Dundee in this matter. It is the one major city of Scotland not served by a direct air service to London or to the South in general. This is really a very unsatisfactory situation.

I am aware, and have been for some years, of Dundee's flying problems.

Will my right hon. Friend keep in mind that we have a magnificent aerodrome at Prestwick? Will he ascertain whether we could have more services to that airport?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, since British European Airways began to operate, it has never had a single suggestion from any individual associated with the Toothill Committee, and, even though the Chairman of the Toothill Committee is also Chairman of the Scottish Advisory Council, he never asked B.E.A. to give evidence to his Committee and at no time did he himself make any suggestion for improving the services, although he had the opportunity to do so?

This is getting very wide of the Question.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will state the date on which he expects the building of the second phase of the extension to Victoria Hospital to start; and if he will give an indication of the date of completion.

The regional hospital board expects to place the contract in May and to start work shortly after that. The present estimated construction period is two and a half years.

Is the Secretary of State aware that it is more than two years since he gave an assurance that the building of the hospital would start in the autumn of 1961? Now that it will not start until May this year, will he give an assurance that his Department will take every step possible to ensure that the building is completed by the anticipated date?

Although I agree that the starting date has again slipped, I am advised that there is good prospect that the completion date will remain as stated when I was last in communication with the hon. Gentleman.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will revise his proposals for raising rents of hospital houses in the light of recent representations made to his Department by the Confederation of Health Service Employees.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the decision he has reached on rents for hospital houses as a result of the representations of the Confederation of Health Service Employees.

I have carefully considered all the representations made to me, but I still consider that the new basis of rent introduced in November last year is fair and reasonable.

Is it not grossly unfair for the Secretary of State on the one hand to agree to the freezing of pay for many members of hospital staffs and on the other hand to propose substantially to raise their rents? Is it not grossly unfair to deal in this way with sections of the community who are performing such great service and whose standard of life is being reduced by Government action?

The hon. Member will be well aware that a great many of the previous rents were extremely low indeed and bore no relation to the value of the accommodation.

Is not the Secretary of State aware of all the problems connected with these houses being tied houses? Is he not also aware that many of the people living in these houses are amongst the law-wage earners in Scotland? Since he has done nothing at all to help to increase their salaries, it is totally wrong for him to single out these people and put this very great increase on their rents, thus lowering their standard of living.

On the first point, the hon. Lady will be aware that the rents of tenants who are required to live in houses at the hospital may be specially abated by up to 15 per cent. to allow for this. On the second point, she should not say that I have done nothing to help to increase the salaries of persons in the hospital service. She will realise that salary negotiations go on through the normal channels.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in some cases the rent increase involved runs up to 400 per cent.? Is it not unjust in principle that employees in tied houses like this should have a level of rents imposed on them based on a calculation which is considerably higher than that obtaining in any other public authority in the country?

Percentages are very misleading in a case like this, because it depends entirely on the point of departure.

Is the Minister aware that these increases are very great indeed and that some of these workers are paying far more than they would pay even for privately-owned property elsewhere? Is he also aware that the majority of them live in areas which do not provide the ordinary amenities of life which people now expect? This fact has not been taken into consideration in fixing the rents.

No. The hon. Lady is well aware that the Treasury Valuer has been willing to consider appeals against his valuation, and this is just the kind of point which would be considered on an appeal.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of these replies, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what consideration he has given to the application for an increase in salaries for all nursing staff lodged with the Nurses and Midwives Whitley Council on 11th August, 1961.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when a decision will be made on a claim for an increase in salaries which has been before the Nurses and Midwives Whitley Council since 11th August, 1961.

The Council is meeting to discuss this claim on 13th February.

Was it not quite monstrous that the Secretary of State should have presumed to tell the House only a minute or two ago that these negotiations are going on all the time, when he and his right hon. Friend the Minister of Health have done nothing since 11th August? As these people have very low salaries indeed compared with those earned in other industries, and as in the light of the Government's pay pause there can be no argument about productivity in relation to nurses and midwives, is it not ridiculous that this matter has been delayed for so long? Will the right hon. Gentleman seek to speed up the consideration of these claims and give these people a decent wage for once?

I cannot add to what I have said. The Council is meeting to discuss this claim on 13th February.

Does it not seem strange that it takes six months from the time to claim is lodged until a Council meets to take any decision on it, although at the same time the Minister responsible can without any questions impose on some of these people higher rents with no right of redress? Is he aware that these nurses are among the most devoted people that we have and it is all the more important that the Government should treat them in a reasonable and generous way?

I certainly agree that nurses are some of the finest people we have in the country. I do not agree that the changing of rents is necessarily a hardship. It is something which had to be done and had to be looked at in the context of what rents were being paid.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will state the establishment for physiotherapists at Dundee Royal Infirmary and Maryfield Hospital, Dundee, respectively; how many full-time physiotherapists are at present employed; and what are the salary ranges for a physiotherapist so employed.

The Board of Management would like to see eight physiotherapists at Dundee Royal Infirmary and seven at Maryfield; at present four full-time physiotherapists are employed at the first and three full-time and three part time at the second. Salaries range from £525 to £650 a year for the basic grade of physiotherapist to £710 to £870 for the superintendent grade.

Is the Secretary of State aware that over Dundee as a whole the number of physiotherapists is running at rather less than half what it should be? Does he not agree that this is due to the pitifully inadequate salaries that they are offered? Is he aware that Dundee Football Club recently offered a physiotherapist for their players a salary substantially in excess of the salary received by the physiotherapist in the main teaching hospital responsible for thousands of Dundee people? Although Dundee Football Club is the best club in the country, is not the Government's meanness creating a cock-eyed situation?

The hon. Gentleman is really developing the almost classic case for almost indefinite inflation, one step leading to another for ever and ever more.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will state the estimated dates for beginning and completing the new teaching hospital at Dundee.

As my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State told the hon. Member in his letter of 10th January, it is expected that building work will start in 1964; the regional hospital board will announce the actual starting date nearer the time. The construction time will probably be five to six years.

Will the Secretary of State deny absolutely the authoritative rumours which are now rife in Dundee that the starting date may be 1965 instead of 1964?

I gave the hon. Member the very latest information in my possession. I will certainly see if I can run down these rumours.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether, in view of the need for new houses in Glasgow and of the acute shortage of land, he will allow the areas at Darnley and Summers-town to be used for building.

Proposals for the development of these areas were included among amendments to the Glasgow Development Plan put forward following the quinquennial review. The objections to these amendments were the subject of an inquiry last year. I am aware of the urgency and shall issue my decision as soon as possible.

While thanking the Secretary of State for that reply, may I ask him if he is aware that it is ten years since an earlier Secretary of State for Scotland advised the local authority to look to these areas for the building of houses? Is it not a shocking state of affairs that in 1962 we are no nearer having this land for the building of houses than we were then?

As my original Answer indicated, I have received the report of the inquiry and am studying it as fast as I can.

Is it not possible for the Secretary of State, having made up his mind on this matter, to let the local authority know his decision in advance of his decision on the overall plan?

I would not exclude that possibility, but certainly at this stage I must have some idea of what the overall plan will look like before I could even consider what the hon. Member suggests.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will indicate the reasons for his Department's objection to the site at South Toryglen being developed by Glasgow Corporation for housing purposes.

South Toryglen is zoned for housing in the Review of the Glasgow Development Plan. This Review has been the subject of a local inquiry, the report of which has recently been received and is now under urgent consideration.

Can I reasonably appeal to the right hon. Gentleman again to accelerate matters?

I will do the best I can but this is a very complex plan.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland why in Command Paper 1602, the Hospital Plan for Scotland, there is no mention of the Peel Hospital in Selkirkshire either in the major or minor works programmes; and if he is satisfied that this hospital, serving a large area, is adequate and up to the standards required in the hospital service.

Minor works are being undertaken as necessary, and I believe the hospital is providing an adequate standard of service. Priority for major reconstructions is a matter, primarily, for the regional hospital board.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that, whatever opinion the regional hospital board has reached, it is not the opinion of the chairman and members of the Border Area Hospital Board, nor indeed of the vast majority of my constituents and those who also live in Berwickshire, apart from Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles? Is he aware that this general hospital is in such an isolated position that staff are not keen to go there? While not denigrating in any way the excellence of the hospital staff, from surgeons to potato peelers, who all perform excellent work, I would point out that this position is a source of great anxiety to my constituents and those in an adjoining constituency. Can my right hon. Friend go further and give some hope of a properly situated hospital up to modern standards in the reasonably near future?

I understand my 'hon. and gallant Friend's concern, for this is a very important matter, but he will appreciate that I am bound to have regard to the views of the regional hospital board in matters of this kind. I would mention that more than £230,000 have been spent on this hospital over the last ten years.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will request the White Fish Authority to speed consideration of four applications for loans or grants to build trawlers in Aberdeen, in view of the difficult shipbuilding position.

I understand that the Authority's Scottish Committee has, in accordance with a policy discussed with the trawler owners' association, deferred consideration of three applications and that a fourth has been withdrawn. Decisions on individual applications are a matter for the Authority and much as I regret the shipbuilders' difficulties I could not properly intervene.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there are applications outstanding with the White Fish Authority for building in the shipyards of Aberdeen which would not come under the category he has mentioned? Could he not make representations to the White Fish Authority, at a time when orders are few and it is very important to try to keep skilled men together in teams, that these applications should be considered with greater speed than they are at present?

All I can undertake to do is to study my hon. Friend's supplementary question, because I was not aware of the particular point she made in the first part of it.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what complaints he has received concerning allegations of maladministration in the burgh of Culross, Fife; whether he will investigate such charges; and whether he will reply to the complainants to that effect.

I have received representations about certain payments claimed by contractors and allegations that councillors have contravened certain statutory provisions. I can determine the legality of payments by a local authority only if they are reported to me by the auditor; and any person who has reason to believe that an offence has been committed should report the circumstances to the criminal authorities. I am sending copies of the hon. Member's Question and of this Answer to the town clerk, the auditor and the persons who made the representations.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I am very much obliged for that Answer? [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] It is rather strange. But is the right hon. Gentleman aware that two of the contractors were councillors or in one case an ex-councillor? Is not the case for prosecution abundantly made by reference to the relevant Section of the Local Government Act? Would the right hon. Gentleman undertake to eliminate the impression created at Culross that he and his Department have been stalling on this matter for political purposes?

That is really a most preposterous suggestion for the hon. Member to make, and I have not heard it made by anybody else until this minute. I would refer the hon. Member to the original Answer which I gave, which sets out the position as it stands and explains the action I am taking.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has considered the Report of the Scottish Advisory Council on Child Care concerning the rôle of voluntary homes; and if he will take the necessary legislative and administrative action to give effect to the Council's recommendations for raising the standards of care, accommodation, equipment, quantity and quality of staff to those of the local authorities.

Yes, Sir. The Report did not recommend legislative action, but I have substantially increased the total grant available for raising the general standards of the homes. Local authorities have also agreed to increase their maintenance payments for the children for whom they are responsible.

Can the right hon. Gentleman let us into the secret as to who published and printed this Report? It is published in rather a tawdry fashion. I should like the right hon. Gentleman to answer this question. In view of the value of the Report, because it is an excellent one, will the right hon. Gentleman undertake to publish it as a Command Paper? Will he, further, consider this, that the Report points out that many of these voluntary homes have no case work at all at the children's homes, and since this is a very important matter will he give some urgency to its consideration?

I will certainly consider everything the hon. Member has said in his supplementary question. I quite agree that the Report is a very valuable document, but I should not like to commit myself to publishing it in any other form, because opinions and tastes differ as to what is the ideal form of such publications.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland on what date he intends to prohibit parking on the A.8 road between Edinburgh and Glasgow.

As soon as the necessary signs can be erected. Delivery is expected in the next few days and the no-waiting Order should be in force later this month.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that to get these signs up has taken, I think, over a year since this question was first raised, and that motorists will welcome the erection of them after waiting so patiently for them?

I have some sympathy with my hon. Friend's comments, but the fact is that the democratic procedures which we invariably follow in the Scottish Office in such matters do take a considerable time to implement.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what estimate he has formed of the number of vehicles which will cross the Forth Road Bridge as compared with the total of those at present using the ferry and those travelling on the A.9 road to or from the Kincardine Bridge.

Up-to-date information on this matter is being compiled by the consulting engineers to the Forth Road Bridge Joint Board. Until this work is completed any prophesy I could make now would be based on out-of-date figures and might be misleading.

Can my right hon. Friend give an assurance that this survey is to be carried out in some climate of urgency? Is he aware that the rate of fatal accidents in Edinburgh is the highest of any among the Scottish cities? Is he aware that the suburban railways in Edinburgh are under sentence of death, and is it not of great importance that heavy traffic or through traffic which wishes to by-pass the city and to keep out of the centre should be enabled to do so?

On the question of urgency I can assure my hon. Friend that this is going forward as fast as reasonably possible. All the other points he raised, while related to the Question, do not really arise directly out of it.

Could the Secretary of State give us some explanation as to why a survey is necessary to find out what traffic is likely to cross the bridge? Is there some doubt whether it will be completed or not?

There is no doubt whatsoever about that. The point is that since the original surveys were taken, before commencement of building, the pattern of traffic has changed, and it is necessary to do another survey, particularly in relation to tolls.

Oh.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what plans he is now formulating to meet the expected increase of 104,000 pupils by 1975 in the rolls of education authority and grant-aided schools.

The present level of educational building is fully adequate to provide by 1975 the additional places required.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman regard this as a most extraordinary Answer? Is it not the case that in many places today existing pupils cannot be taught within the four walls of the school buildings and that in some places schools are running two sessions on one and the same day? How is he going to accommodate those 104,000 children without building new schools? Does he realise that the bulge of a few years ago has now become a plateau of definite height? Can he assure us that he will make a better go at solving the problem created by the plateau than he did when he was faced with the bulge?

The simple answer to most of the hon. Member's supplementary question is that 137,000 places have been provided during the last three years, which suggests that there should be no special difficulty about providing 104,000 additional places by 1975.

Is the Secretary of State aware that most education authorities in Scotland are seriously worried at this moment at the lack of proper buildings for the education of their children? Is he also aware that there are many heads of schools who have realised that they just cannot do the job they are supposed to do because of the scattered nature of the buildings? Is he not at all worried that added to those difficulties will be the extra one of increased population?

I agree that there are many imperfections, and it will take time to cure them, but I think that if she studies the figures I gave in my answer to the first supplementary question the hon. Lady will appreciate that this matter has been tackled with energy in past years and that we should be able to solve it.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many remand homes are not being fully utilised; and what accommodation exists in such homes that is not being used.

All homes are fully used, but with a rapidly changing population any one may have many vacancies on any particular day.

Is the Secretary of State aware that my information is that full use of accommodation at remand homes is quite uncertain? They are mostly homes covering a regional area. Would he not consider the concern of parents and probation officers and others because children, especially the first-offence cases, are being removed to Barlinnie and other prisons? Could he not examine the possibility of freezing some little accommodation in certain remand homes for use for this purpose till he gets his remand centres ready?

I think the hon. Member will appreciate that freezing of any of this accommodation might not have the effect he desires, because the population is bound to change almost hourly in these remand homes, and while at any given moment there may be vacant places they may be filled up quickly and others may become empty.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he intends to implement the recommendations of the Special Committee of the Scottish Advisory Council on Child Care which recently reported to him on Scottish remand homes.

I have already asked local authorities to submit proposals for improving their remand home arrangements. I shall announce my decisions on the more general recommendations after I have received the views of the local authority associations, whom I have consulted.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the point that arises from the Report is that this is not a matter for the local authority? Is he aware that the Special Committee expressed dismay at the inadequacy of quality and quantity in the staff of the remand homes and pointed to the need for national negotiating machinery to secure that more and better paid staff should be employed? Is not this a matter for the right hon. Gentleman's responsibility?

I am bound to consider the views of local authorities on this matter before I come to any conclusions.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many children have no regular school dental service; and how many more dentists would be required to give full dental coverage.

About a hundred more dentists are needed to provide adequate regular dental inspection. Treatment is a less serious problem as the parents of most of the children requiring it prefer to use the general dental service.

Is not this lack of staff and withering of the service a quite deplorable state of affairs? The Secretary of State will be aware that certain local authorities have decided that they are to allow children off from classes to attend outside dentists. Would it not be a great saving of educational time if the preservation of teeth and dental care were done in dental clinics in the school? Will he tell the House how he is to recruit the necessary dentists in order that the work can take place at the schools?

I agree that this is highly desirable and discussions are going on about it, but the hon. Member should appreciate that only three of every eight parents offered treatment through the dental service accept it the rest prefer to use the normal service.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that dentists in Scotland are extremely worried about the condition of children's teeth which they consider to be largely due to the overeating of sweets? Can he not have some research made to see whether something can be done to ensure that children obtain the necessary vitamins to protect teeth against decay due to sweet-eating?

The right hon. Gentleman will be aware that we have just launched a big campaign to try to encourage children to eat sweets at more sensible times. I am sure at any rate that the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Manuel) would be an advocate of happy smiles.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that what I am concerned about is not the extraction aspect of this problem but the regular and urgent examination of children's teeth at school in order to ensure preservation? That is the aspect to which the right hon. Gentleman should apply his mind and not the actual dental work ensuing from inspection.

I do not disagree with the hon. Member.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what consideration he has given to the proposal made by the Scottish section of the Town and Country Planning Association, in its Interim Report on Investigations into Dispersal Policy in Scotland, a copy of which has been sent to him, that he should appoint a small commission to examine the regional planning problems of the central belt of Scotland; and what reply he has made.

These matters involve issues of policy and administration which are of such wide-ranging importance and complexity that I do not consider they could be usefully remitted to a single commission, however representative.

Is the Secretary of State implying that he believes that his own officials are perfectly competent to deal with these problems? Does he not recognise that when voices of such authority as are contained in this memorandum suggest that a commission would be valuable, this suggestion might well be taken up? Is he aware that such a commission might even offer advice which his own planning officials have not so far put forward?

I am well aware of the importance of the body which produced this memorandum, but frankly I am not very keen on jumping into appointing yet another committee for the sake of appointing one. The stystem of consultation between the Department and the local authorities and other interested organisations is effective, but my mind will not be closed at some future date if there is need to consider any further steps.

Is not this a matter which is very difficult for the right hon. Gentleman to deal with by consultation between his planning officials and separate local authorities? Is he not aware that the whole point is that the matter should be considered on a regional basis and that from that point of view a commission which could gather information on a regional basis could provide information which might be valuable?

The new town of Livingstone and the area proposals theme are an example of what the hon. Lady wants.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how often approved schools will be visited by his inspectors under the new regulations issued in December; and how many are employed in the inspectorate.

It is hoped that one or other of the two inspectors principally responsible for approved schools will be able to visit each school at least twice each term. In addition, they, and the specialist inspectors and my Department's medical officer, will visit individual schools as often as may be necessary.

Is the Secretary of State satisfied that this number will be adequate to avoid a recurrence of such incidents as happened in my constituency about three years ago? In view of this and other Questions on these matters, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he does not think that the time has arrived when he should review all the services for young people, covering remand homes, remand centres, detention centres, borstals, children's homes and the rest in order to establish a new and logical service for young people?

In reply to the first part of the hon. Member's supplementary question, the recent appointment of a second inspector for approved school work will enable the inspectorate to keep in touch more closely with the schools than was the case formerly. We will certainly watch whether the service is adequate. The second part of the supplementary question raises a very wide issue.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received about the taxing of tourists in Scotland; and if he will give an assurance that, in considering such representations, he will take into account the need to develop tourism in the Highlands, and the traditional hospitality of that area.

The suggestion for such a tax came up at a conference recently organised by the Scottish Tourist Board and it is considering it. The only representation which I have had came from the hon. Gentleman himself. The Answer to the second part of his Question is "Yes, Sir".

Does not the right hon. Gentleman appoint the Scottish Tourist Board? Is he not aware that a proposal of this kind to tax very welcome visitors, wherever they come from, is wholly repugnant to people in Scotland? Would it not injure the tourist trade which is the Government's economic policy for the Highlands?

I feel that it would be only right to await the Scottish Tourist Board's views before attempting to come to a conclusion on this important matter.

Is it not the case that in several countries where tourism is one of the most successful industries a small taxe de séjour is imposed and there is no feeling of any hostility on the part of visitors because of it?

Is it not also the case that the country which the hon. Member for Edinburgh, West (Mr. Stodart) has in mind, which I think is Switzerland, is in a position entirely different from that of Scotland? It is surrounded by great nations whose nationals can walk, drive or go by train over the border and do not have to cross the Channel or undertake a long journey.

This is obviously a matter which allows differences of view.

Is it not complete nonsense to think of taxing people who come to certain parts of the country and excluding all the rest? Why does the right hon. Gentleman not say that it is nonsense and have done with it?

I am not prepared to say that it is nonsense before the Tourist Board, which is doing invaluable work in attracting visitors to Scotland, has expressed its views.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he received a memorandum stressing the need to accelerate the rate of progress of the improvement of the county road system and other relative matters; and what reply he is making.

I understand that the County Council of Ross and Cromarty is considering sending me such a memorandum. If and when it does so I shall study it carefully.

Does my right hon. Friend realise that at the present rate it will take forty-three years and thirty four years respectively to bring trunk and Class 1 roads even up to the required standard and that the rate of progress is not keeping pace with the increased traffic? Is it not time that we had a comprehensive road programme which should be carried out with a sense of urgency?

My hon. Friend will be aware that there has been a very substantial increase in expenditure on road building in recent years.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if a definite decision has yet been reached with regard to the future use of the land at Cowglen Military Hospital.

No, Sir. The Western Regional Hospital Board has not yet completed its plans for the reorganisation of general hospital services in Glasgow and in consequence a decision cannot be reached.

Will the Secretary of State undertake to accelerate proceedings in the negotiations which are taking place? The right hon. Gentleman must, and I believe he does, recognise the tremendous housing problem in Glasgow.

I have asked the regional hospital board to complete its review of sites and services as soon as possible.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he is taking to reduce the time of waiting at the out-patient department at the Royal Alexandra Hospital, Paisley.

I am not aware of any general difficulty; but if the hon. Member has a specific complaint I shall gladly look into it.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I have received complaints of patients having to wait four and five hours and even longer in the out-patient department? Is he aware that no responsibility attaches to the staff of the hospital and that they require facilities at the hospital with which only he can deal? Will the right hon. Gentleman get on with the job of giving Paisley decent hospital facilities?

I should be very grateful if the hon. Member would send me the details of matters which cause him concern. The regional board has agreed in principle to provide more premises in order that additional clinics may be held.

Surely the right hon. Gentleman is not dependent upon my hon. Friend sending details of one or two cases of someone having to wait a long time? Is he aware that in quite a number of hospitals there is no appointment system and that waiting time is far too long and that he should be trying to do something about these matters?

The hon. Lady must be aware that I have taken a great deal of trouble to try to get hospitals to institute the very system she is asking me about, and many hospitals have done so. I have only to receive details to follow up a particular case.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what were the gross and net figures of migration of people from Scotland to other parts of the United Kingdom and overseas, respectively, during 1961.

Figures will not be available until May.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will state the number of primary school places provided by new school building in Lanarkshire and Scotland, respectively, from 1946 to the latest convenient date.

The number of primary school places provided in the period 1946 to 1961 inclusive is approximately 41,000 in Lanarkshire and 259,000 in Scotland.

Is the Secretary of State aware that, despite his boasting only a short time ago about the rapidity of the provision of school places, this is considerably less than half the number of primary school children in Scotland? Is he aware that there has been a serious division of opinion between his Department and the Lanarkshire education authority on the question of school buildings which has held up work now for over a year? Will he see whether something can be done to meet Lanarkshire's problem so that Lanarkshire especially, if not the whole of Scotland, can get on with the provision of very badly needed school places? Will he especially see what can be done in my own constituency at Wishaw, where there is a very serious lack of school places?

I very greatly regret the difficulties which have arisen with the Lanarkshire education authority over the last period. Fortunately, I am glad to say that it has now agreed to continue building.

Is the Secretary of State aware that more than two-thirds of the school building programme as now decided up to 1963 will be concentrated in the new town of East Kilbride? We have no objection to East Kilbride getting school places, but is he aware that one-third of the building programme is quite insufficient for the rest of Lanarkshire?

The programme now submitted to me will undoubtedly need further examination as time goes on.

asked the Minister of Transport to what extent the imposition of a 40 miles per hour speed limit has reduced the number of personal injury road accidents on roads previously without a speed limit and on roads where there was previously a 30 miles per hour limit, respectively; and if he will relate the figures of his answer to the several categories of road users.

From a sample survey in the London Traffic Area the Road Research Laboratory concludes that on roads previously without a speed limit personal injury accidents were 19 per cent. fewer than would otherwise have been expected. On roads previously subject to a 30 m.p.h. limit the number of accidents was not significantly affected by the change.

As these speed limits really do, as my hon. Friend said, reduce accidents, will he ask our right hon. Friend to do a little propaganda to this effect instead of sending out circulars to local authorities telling them, in rather an anti-speed limit tone, to review the speed limits?

I do not accept the interpretation which my hon. Friend places on the circular which the Ministry has recently issued. We have neglected no opportunity of drawing the attention of all road users to the importance of keeping to speed limits because of their road safety value.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he has studied the relationship between the increased volume of advertising of alcoholic beverages in the month preceding Christmas, 1961, and the number of road accidents during this period; and whether he will make a statement.

I doubt very much whether such a study would produce any useful results.

But is it not the case that last Christmas the average number of road deaths per day rose by 25 per cent.? In these circumstances, and despite the efforts of the Ministry, is it not absolutely useless for the Minister of Transport to appear on television announcing that he has just had a glass of sherry but that his wife has been driving him while at the same time powerful vested interests are concerned with the promotion of the sales of alcohol, thus making sure that the number of drivers affected by alcohol is increased at a time of such significance in regard to road casualty rates?

I take note of the hon. Gentleman's views on this matter, but I have answered the Question which he tabled. We frequently take the opportunities that present themselves to warn people about the dangers of drinking and driving, and we have now brought before the House a Bill which will strengthen our hands in this respect.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that when I had some Ministerial responsibility for road safety we persuaded the brewers to put up in very many of their premises posters pointing out the danger to road safety in drinking too much? Will he consider whether some further steps in this direction might not be feasible?

I can tell the right hon. Gentleman that quite recently a number of brewers have been doing this again. In addition, there have been certain advertisements by the manufacturers of alcoholic drink drawing attention to the danger of drinking and driving.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

asked the Minister of Transport when he expects the projected lay-bys to be made on the Epping New Road in Buckhurst Hill.

I assume my hon. Friend is referring to various proposed sites for lay-bys between Woodford Green and Warren Hill. Further consideration of these has been postponed until a decision has been reached on the sites proposed further North where the road passes through Epping Forest.

Is my hon. Friend aware that many of my constituents are much concerned about safety on this road? While it is highly desirable to preserve to the full the amenities of Epping Forest, would he see whether, if he comes to the conclusion that lay-bys would interfere with the amenities, a clearway might not be expedient?

We are always prepared to consider proposals for clearways where the design characteristics of the road are suitable. We are at the moment seeing whether something can be done to provide clearway conditions and lay-bys along the whole length of this road. Discussions are continuing with the Epping Conservators.

asked the Minister of Transport how many shipbuilding orders, and of what total tonnage, were placed in British yards during 1961; and how this compares with 1959 and 1960.

In 1961 183 vessels of 887,000 gross tons were ordered from United Kingdom shipyards, and orders for 18 vessels of 198,000 gross tons were cancelled. In 1960, 232 vessels were ordered totalling 558,000 gross tons and orders for 24 vessels of 228,000 gross tons were cancelled. In 1959 there were orders for 185 vessels of 319,000 gross tons and orders for 21 vessels of 314,000 gross tons were cancelled.

asked the Minister of Transport what was the total tonnage of shipping launched from British yards during 1961; how this compares with 1959 and 1960: and what is the potential capacity of British yards.

In 1961 1,190,000 gross tons of merchant ships were launched in United Kingdom yards. The figure for 1960 was 1,330,000, and for 1959 1,370,000 gross tons. The industry estimated last year that potential annual output was some 1,600,000 gross tons, apart from new naval construction.

I am very grateful to my hon. and gallant Friend for those figures. Can he confirm, or otherwise, to the House that the importance of the figures is that they show that there is at the moment a decline in the shipbuilding industry? Does not this heighten the need for an urgent and immediate debate on the matter in the House of Commons? Is my hon. and gallant Friend aware that it is not quite good enough for him to tell me in a few seconds' time that this is not his responsibility? Surely it is his responsibility to press this on the Leader of the House. The House deserves a debate on this matter, and very soon indeed.

As to the first part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question, the improvement since 1959 is encouraging, but at the same time a considerably greater volume of orders would be necessary to keep the industry fully occupied. The net orders last year represented less than half the capacity. As to the matter of a debate, I live in hope, as my hon. Friend does.

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that one very important factor in the obtaining of orders for shipbuilding is the amount of credit facilities which the Government are willing to provide for the shipbuilders who seek to obtain contracts abroad? Will he give very grave consideration to this important aspect?

Yes, Sir, but I am quite confident that the new arrangements for export credits which the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced on 23rd January will be of great assistance to our shipbuilders in obtaining foreign orders.

Can my hon. and gallant Friend give the percentage of those figures applying to Scotland and say whether the position shows any improvement?

I cannot give the percentage without notice, but, speaking from memory, I think it is fair to say that Clydeside had a very good year, especially in the latter half of 1961.

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that this is a problem with which the unions and the employers are gravely concerned, and that it is one which we ought to be discussing in the House as a matter of urgency? Will he please see to it that we have such a debate, so that we may have an indication of what the Government are proposing to do? The hon. and gallant Gentleman has referred to Clydeside, but will he also remember that Belfast is in a very serious position? What has he to offer Belfast, which is supposed to be part of the United Kingdom?

I certainly look forward to a debate as much as does the hon. Gentleman, and we live in hope. I agree that the situation in the Belfast yards is serious.

I beg to move, in page 4, line 16, to leave out subsection (2).

On a point of order, Sir William. Has your attention been drawn to the very bad conduct of the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro), who is taunting hon. Members on this side about a lapse of manners which he had yesterday, which caused a commotion in the House and a slander to be uttered against my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Rankin)?

Further to that point of order——

It is not a point of order. The hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Manuel), if he is referring to an incident at all, is referring to what happened in the House. We are now in Committee.

I am sorry if I said "House", Sir William. I should have said "Committee". The incident happened after the House had gone into Committee and after the Mace had been placed below the Table. It was that incident to which I was drawing your attention.

I am obliged to the hon. Member of his explanation, but I think that we should get on with our work now.