asked the Minister of Transport if he is aware of the succcess of German, Dutch, Scandinavian and other foreign shipyards in their competition for relevant orders with British, and particularly Scottish, shipyards, and that this is causing increasing unemployment in certain British shipyards, particularly in Aberdeen; and if he will state the results of his investigation into the effects of these conditions on the increased unemployment in the British shipyards affected and the steps he is now taking, giving details, to attract orders to, and reduce unemployment in, those shipyards.

We have no information about Aberdeen shipyards losing orders to foreign yards. But Scotland as a whole has been quite successful recently in capturing both British and foreign orders.

Does not the Minister agree that it would be a great advantage to the British Navy if in future ships built for registration in Britain were registered separately from those registered abroad?

That is rather a different question.

asked the Minister of Transport what assistance in securing orders he is prepared to give to the smaller British shipyards who have adapted themselves to the changing conditions of their industry.

These yards should be in a better position to secure new orders than those which have not been modernised. It is not the policy of the Government in placing its own orders to give preference on other than competitive considerations, or to try to persuade other people to do so.

Does not the Minister realise that this reply will be a little disappointing to many smaller yards which have equipped themselves to meet modern conditions? Is he not aware that there are many restricted tenders which lay down that yards must have built certain types of ship before they can be considered? Will he look into the matter very closely, in view of the fact that we have such a shipyard in my constituency, which the Parliamentary Secretary has visited?

We will certainly consider these points, but we should be very reluctant indeed to depart from the general principle of competitive tender. We shall have an opportunity of debating this in greater detail tomorrow.

As the Government hitherto have done nothing at all for the British shipbuilding industry, why cannot they provide the facilities for the home industry which they are providing for exports in shipbuilding? Why this desire to promote exports when it cannot be made effective unless at the same time we build up the home industry, otherwise everything becomes more expensive?

With great respect to the right hon. Gentleman, this anticipates another Question on the Order Paper. In any case, I do not think that I could effectively deal with this matter, of which we are well aware, in Question and Answer. Perhaps this can be raised in the debate tomorrow. I have no doubt that it will be raised then.

Does not my hon. and gallant Friend think that the best service he can render to the small shipyards is to protect our own coastal shipping fleet?

No. Sir. I do not think that that is so. I do not agree with that.

asked the Minister of Transport what provision he intends to include in the Estimates for 1962–63 for advances to Cunard White Star Limited, for the construction of a large vessel, as authorised by the North Atlantic Shipping Act, 1961.

I have nothing to add to the reply my right hon. Friend gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward) on 13th December.

Has the Minister not yet realised that the idea of building a 75,000-ton replacement for the "Queen Mary" is now as dead as the dodo? Will he not reconsider the whole matter and give his mind instead to the building of two 40,000-ton replacements? Does he realise that such a plan would bring much greater support to shipbuilding than that which is now being entertained?

That is a matter for the Cunard Company, in the first instance. It has informed us that it does not expect to be in a position to make further proposals until the second quarter of this year, when it has completed its reassessment of traffic prospects.

Does not my hon. and gallant Friend agree that the suggestion that we should have two 40,000-ton liners instead of a 70,000-ton liner is entirely irrelevant?

I would rather not be drawn into this matter. It does not arise directly from the Question.

Is the Minister aware that the question of its relevance is quite irrelevant to the point before us now? Is he telling us that Parliament has to await the pleasure of the Cunard Company while shipbuilding is going through a most difficult period?

I do not know whether the hon. Member is suggesting that we should build a Government-owned ship to cross the North Atlantic. So far, that has not been suggested.

asked the Minister of Transport if he is aware that oil pollution of the sea is worsening; and if he will take steps to bring to the attention of masters and crews of oil carrying and oil burning vessels the dangers of this defilement to beaches and birds and the methods they can adopt to prevent it.

A comprehensive manual on this subject has been produced by the Ministry and we intend to pursue this matter vigorously at the forthcoming International Conference. However, my information is that pollution around the coasts of the United Kingdom has somewhat decreased during the past year.

Is the Minister aware that this battle for the birds, the beaches and the seaside resorts has been going on for a considerable time and that it appears to me from what I see that little progress has been made? Will the Minister take unilateral action against our ships when waste oil is thrown overboard? Is he aware that I am glad to hear that he is placing this matter on the Agenda at the meeting to take place next month?

I must point out that there are a number of prosecutions every year for this offence. There is the difficulty of enforcement outside the three-mile limit, and the chief object at the conference will be to get additional nations to adhere to the Convention and make it more effective.

Cannot we show an example in this country?

asked the Minister of Transport if he is aware that the orange red flares used by Russian trawlers to communicate with each other, and the red flare distress signals, are almost indistinguishable from a distance, and that this resemblance has been the cause of British lifeboats being called out on useless journeys; and if he will make representations with a view to effecting a change.

I have seen reports that Russian trawlers use orange red flares for communications purposes, but they have not been substantiated. The most recent case which was reported in the Press turned out to have been caused by a distress rocket from a British lobster vessel whose engine had temporarily broken down.

Is the Minister aware that we do not appreciate the work of these lifeboatmen as much as we ought? Is he aware that although we are all glad of the good work they are doing, we do not want them to be called out unnecessarily? If by the use of flares which are so much alike at a distance there is a danger that these men might be called out unnecessarily, why not, by mutual arrangement with the countries concerned, change the colour of the signals? That would obviate the necessity of their being called out unnecessarily in future. Perhaps the Minister could arrange to have this matter placed on the agenda of the Conference which is taking place next month?

I do not think we could do that, because the Conference is on the subject of oil pollution. We should, of course, make representations if we thought that other countries were infringing the accepted custom that red flares are a sign of danger for those at sea on their lawful occasions. I entirely associate myself with what the hon. Member has said about the good work of the lifeboat service, but I must point out that it is the practice of Her Majesty's Coastguard and the lifeboat service to interpret any unusual signals at sea as distress signals because they would rather go on a number of fruitless journeys than miss one genuine call.

asked the Minister of Transport what steps he took to obtain the views of shipowners and shipbuilders on the credit facilities for exports announced by the Government; and what was their response.

Shipowners and shipbuilders have both made known to us their views on credit facilities. As my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has said, the new arrangements for export credit were worked out in the City. Like him, we heartily welcome this initiative to help our exports.

Does the right hon. Gentleman mean that when these representations were made, either to himself or to his right hon. and learned Friend, on the subject of these export provisions nothing was said about the need for stimulating the home trade in shipbuilding? Was nothing said about that? Did they make no complaint at all?

I remind the right hon. Gentleman of what my right hon. and learned Friend said yesterday. I have no evidence that any British shipowner has refrained from ordering new ships because of inadequate credit facilities. If the right hon. Gentleman has some information, I should be grateful to receive it.

Is the Minister aware that some shipbuilders are in danger of losing some very valuable contracts with foreign countries for shipbuilding because of the limitation on the credit that he is prepared to offer them?

It rather depends on what the hon. Gentleman means by limitations on credit. The normal commercial credit is available to almost any exporter and is also available to shipowners, as well as to other engineering industries.

In view of the lamentable record of the right hon. Gentleman and his associates on the Treasury Bench in regard to the Cunard fiasco, is it not desirable that something should be done to stimulate British shipbuilding and provide credit facilities to shipowners and shipbuilders who cannot obtain it in the normal fashion? What does he intend to do about this?

My right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced a new scheme. Export Credits have extended the length of their credit insurance, and this is done by the Government. The main point is that the shipowners themselves have not asked for credit and I am certain that so far we have no evidence that any British shipowner has not placed an order because of lack of credit.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he has now received reports from the Northumberland Transport Consultative Committee, concerning the closure of branch lines, the limitation of other branch lines, and the availability of alternative means of transport; and whether he will make a statement.

The Transport Users Consultative Committee for the North Eastern Area send copies of its minutes to the Central Transport Consultative Committee and to the British Transport Commission. The Central Committee have not drawn the attention of my right hon. Friend to any reports of the North Eastern Area Committee since his reply to the hon. Member's Question on 20th December last.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that the closure of branch lines continues and that it has a serious economic effect upon both rural and urban areas? Is not he prepared to give further consideration to the necessity to provide adequate transport facilities in Northumberland?

That goes far wide of the Question on the Order Paper. The hon. Member asked whether we had received reports from this Consultative Committee. The answer is, "Not since 20th December."

asked the Minister of Transport if he is aware that the closure of certain branch railway lines in the north of Scotland has militated against the bringing of trade, industry, employment and population to the north of Scotland; and if he will place in the Library the evidence which he received from the Central Transport Consultative Committee before deciding to order each of those closures.

The few closures of branch lines in the north of Scotland which have taken place in recent years were approved by the Transport Users Consultative Committee for Scotland, who made no recommendation to us. No doubt they took into account, as is their usual practice, the availability of alter native services and any firm plans for industrial development.

Does not the Minister realise that, by closing branch lines in the north of Scotland without due inquiry, he is making chaos of the policy of the Secretary of State for Scotland who is doing his best to bring trade, industry and commerce to the north of Scotland? Will the Minister of Transport agree to consult the Secretary of State for Scotland so that they can put their heads together to formulate some constructive and useful policy instead of having this destructive policy?

The Minister of Transport does not close branch lines. That is a matter for the British Transport Commission. Parliament has laid down a consultative committee procedure which serves to bring to the surface any views such as those mentioned by the hon. and learned Member. These are taken into account by my right hon. Friend when he is asked to approve or disprove the proposals of the Commission.

May we have an assurance that where a branch line is closed on the recommendation of any body, and where it can be shown that there is a public need although an economic loss, the Government will if necessary subsidise the branch line in order that it may be retained?

I can give no assurance of that kind. Each case is looked at entirely on its merits. We do all we can to obtain the fullest possible information from all those who may be affected by the closure of a line or the withdrawing of a service.

asked the Minister of Transport why he declined to meet the deputation from the Stainmore Line Protest Committee, who wished to see him regarding the reasons for his decision to approve the closing of the line, in view of the widely representative character of that committee and their experience of freight traffic on this and associated lines.

My right hon. Friend received the letter suggesting that he should meet the deputation more than a month after his decision was announced, and only ten days before the line was due to be closed. Both the area transport users' consultative committees and the central committee had examined the proposal with the greatest care and had recommended closure. My right hon. Friend therefore considered that no useful purposes would be served by his receiving a deputation.

That is what the Minister said on two previous occasions. Is the hon. Member aware that the original case for closing this line was based on a 25 per cent. error as to the freight which could be hauled over Stainmore? Is he aware that following this every consultative committee must have gone wrong because every decision was based on the original error?

All I can say is that the area transport users' consultative committees went into this matter with the greatest care. They held no fewer than six meetings. Objectors had ample opportunity to make representations during the two years which elapsed between the original announcement and the Minister's final decision. On week days in the winter on this line the average number of passengers per train was twenty and between forty and fifty railwaymen were on duty to run those trains.

Does not the Minister realise that transport users' consultative committees cannot make recommendations for a line to remain open and that the responsibility for keeping a line open rests on his shoulders, if he gives such a directive? In view of the social need for this line, will he not take a rather broader-minded view and give a directive that the line should be kept open in order to meet the needs of this very sparsely populated area?

It is not a case of taking a broad-minded or a narrow-minded view. Many of these branch lines all over the country are losing money simply because they are not patronised. The Ministry has a dual responsibility to the nation and to the House for the spending of the public money which is involved in this subsidy.

Does not my hon. Friend think that it is a little odd that when consultative committees recommend the closure of a line he hides behind this decision, but that when a consultative committee recommends that a line should be kept open, as was the case in the Dunton Green-Westerham Line, he still closes it?

No. Sir. With respect to my hon. Friend, he is completely distorting the situation. There is no comparison between these two cases. I have already dealt very fully with this case, and my hon. Friend should remember the very detailed correspondence and the meetings which he and I had on the closure to which he referred.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will give a general direction to the British Transport Commission to pay compensation to coal merchants who are dispossessed of facilities by the closure of railway stations and yards.

No, Sir. This is a matter between the Commission and the coal merchants.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that reports have been appearing in responsible sections of the Press recently that some thousands of pounds have already been paid in the form of compensation in some parts of England? Can he give an estimate of what the total figure is likely to be, particularly in respect of Wales, where considerable rail closures are in contemplation?

I cannot do that without notice. Perhaps my hon. Friend will let me have these statements from some responsible parts of the Press.

asked the Minister of Transport how much money has been spent on preliminary work concerned with the proposed electrification of the Glasgow-Gourock railway, under the capital development scheme.

I am informed by the British Transport Commission that some £12,000 has been spent on preliminary survey work in connection with a proposed scheme to electrify the line from Glasgow to Gourock and Wemyss Bay.

In view of the expenditure of this money, can we expect a favourable decision by the end of the year?

The survey has been carried out on the well-known Army maxim, "Time spent on reconnaissance is seldom wasted."

asked the Minister of Transport what estimate he has made of losses, after interest payments, by the railways in respect of the year to 5th April, 1962; and whether he will make a statement.

For 1961, their accounting year, British Railways' deficit is estimated to be about £151 million. This figure includes some £15 million for interest on borrowings by the British Transport Commission to meet the revenue deficit of British Railways. Estimates of the railways' deficit for the twelve months ending 5th April, 1962, are not available.

Is not that figure of £151 million approximately £11 million more than the estimated loss, and can my right hon. Friend tell the House whether we shall be given a statement shortly as to the profit-earning prospects of British Railways in the next few years, if at all, having regard to the huge investment of new moneys in the railway system as part of the modernisation plan?[HON. MEMBERS: "Why not."] Yes, I am all for it, but when are they going to start showing a return on it?

The present Chairman of the British Transport Commission has instituted a number of traffic studies and is going into them with great exactitude and is trying to be as precise as he can. We must wait until he has finished those studies.

Does not this figure of the deficit which the hon. Gentleman has just mentioned show the damage done to the finances of the British Transport Commission when the road traffic was taken away from it?

I do not think so.

asked the Minister et Transport what further conversations he has now had with Dr. Beeching on railwaymen's wages with a view to avoiding strikes, following the rejection by rail way unions of the 3 per cent. offer; and whether he will make a statement.

As my hon. Friend will be aware, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is meeting representatives of the three railway unions later today. He will understand, therefore, that I would prefer to make no comment at present on the question of the railwaymen's wage claim.

Can my right hon. Friend give the House an assurance that he has appropriately briefed the Prime Minister as to the feeling in his party and that if the concession in regard to wages were in excess of the 3 per cent. it would make a mockery of the "guiding light" in the incomes White Paper?

In view of the fact that the meeting is to take place in less than half-an-hour's time, I think it would be discourteous of me to say anything more.

Can we assume from what has happened that the Minister's request to Dr. Beeching to skip the negotiations stage in the conciliation machinery and to go straight to arbitration without having any negotiations has now been withdrawn?

If the right hon. Gentleman will look at HANSARD for 7th February he will see that the Parliamentary Secretary answered that in a Written Answer to a Question which he put down.

No answer at all.

asked the Minister of Transport if he will make a statement on his policy on the elimination of exhaust fumes from road vehicles; whether he proposes to take steps to ensure that new elbows shall be fitted on all diesel engines; and when he expects to make regulations for the complete elimination of exhaust fumes.

asked the Minister of Transport what further action he is taking to end the growing nuisance of exhaust fumes from motor vehicles.

The regulations recently issued on the use of the excess fuel device should have a useful effect in reducing the emission of dark diesel smoke, especially on long hills. Following discussion with the National Society for Clean Air, we are considering how we can improve observance of the law against harmful fumes. If we succeed in developing a satisfactory method of roadside measurement, it would be possible to impose a specific limit on the density of smoke emitted. We are also keeping under review work both here and in the United States on methods of eliminating the harmful constituents of petrol exhaust fumes. I have no information about the device referred to by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ellis Smith) but will be glad to look into it if he will let me have details.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that all who are interested in this matter will very much appreciate that reply? Is he further aware that the device mentioned in the Question is the result of years of research carried out by Gardners of Manchester, one of the most efficient engine manufacturers in the world? Will he consult them in order to decide whether it should be made universal?

We recently consulted Messrs. Gardners and I am advised that they said they knew nothing about this device. That was why I particularly asked in my Answer whether the hon. Gentleman would let me have full details, because I should very much like to hear them.

Is the Minister aware that unless something is done about this problem, pedestrians and motorists who are caught up in traffic jams in London and other large towns will have to wear gas masks? Is he aware that something ought to be done quickly to end what is an intolerable, stinking nuisance?

That is why we are getting rid of the traffic jams.

Oh.

What an excuse !

Is the Minister aware that the highly skilled men who are engaged on this work have kept me informed on the matter?

asked the Minister of Transport whether he proposes to make a regulation for the compulsory use of dipped headlights; and if he will make a statement.

Clause 13 of the Road Traffic Bill, which is now before the House, contains provisions which would enable me to make regulations governing the use of headlamps, but it is too early to say how these powers should be used.

General guidance on using dipped headlamps is given in the Highway Code. Rule 50 says,

"Use dipped headlights at night in built-up areas, unless the street lighting is good."

Would my right hon. Friend bear in mind that 80 million out of 125 million motorists in the world already have to do this Is he aware that the Lord Mayor of Birmingham has convened a conference of interested parties, including the police, with a view to staging a week in the city when motorists will be asked to dip their headlights? Will he take an interest in this and support it?

I shall certainly take an interest in it, and I should be glad to hear from my hon. Friend the conclusions arrived at at the Birmingham conference, but there are many different schools of thought on this question. I know that Birmingham is one of the foremost towns in the country in looking after roads and road traffic. I shall be very interested to hear the conclusions of the conference.

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us when the central screen down M.1 will be completed so that we can use headlights there in a non-lit area?

Perhaps the hon. and learned Member will put that question on the Order Paper.

asked the Minister of Transport if he is aware of the hardship caused to the people of East Halton and South Killingholme by the withdrawal of local bus services; and, in view of the progressive deterioration in transport amenities in the countryside, what action he now proposes to take on the recommendations of the Jack Committee's Report.

asked the Minister of Transport (1) if, in implementing the recommendations of the Jack Committee on Road Transport, he will give special consideration to the sparsely populated areas; and

(2) if he will now make a statement on the recommendations of the Jack Committee on Rural Transport.

asked the Minister of Transport if he is now in a position to make a statement on the recommendations of the Jack Committee on Rural Transport.

I have seen no evidence that the people of these two villages are suffering hardship. I cannot say yet what action will be taken on the recommendation of the Jack Report.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I have had a considerable amount of correspondence from inhabitants of these villages and others by whom this service was used very considerably, and that they are upset about it? Is he further aware that this is after eleven years of a Conservative Government during which hardly a year has passed without some of the services being withdrawn from the countryside? Even if he is rather a shining example of a modern big business Tory, could he not take an interest in the countryside?

It is interesting to know that the hon. and learned Member has had a large correspondence, because this service as a whole was operating at a loss of 10d. a mile. In 1961, the operating costs were 2s. 1d. rising to 2s. 3d. a mile and the average receipts on the whole service were 1s. 3d. per mile. During a week in July, the best for many months, the average receipts for the last bus journey during the day was 4d. a mile. I do not know how many letters the hon. and learned Member has, but should like him to send them to us.

On the whole of this subject, surely my right hon. Friend has no grounds to be pleased with the situation at present? Did he not write off quickly the fact that we have not yet dealt with the Jack Committee Report? Does he realise that this is a most important subject which many of us take very seriously?

I am sure that hon. Members take it very seriously, but unfortunately they do not have a unanimous view on the matter.

May I reinforce the argument of my hon. Friend the Member for Horncastle (Sir J. Maitland) and draw the attention of my right hon. Friend to the answer he gave in November to a question about when we could have a debate on the Jack Committee Report? He said that he realised it was a matter of extreme urgency and that he would consult the Leader of the House to see if time could be found for a debate. Has he had an answer to that question yet?

That was answered in November, when there was a debate on road transport in December, to which the Parliamentary Secretary replied.

Will the Minister assure us that mere profit and loss is not to be the only consideration applied by this Government in the matter of withdrawal of rural services? Is there not such a thing as a social service whereby some of the more profitable routes can help to contribute to some of the less profitable ones?

On this particular route to which the hon. and learned Member has referred the situation is really ludicrous. The receipts are 4d. a mile, so, it cannot be extensively used. Application to withdraw the bus service was made in August. The usual notice was published and no objection was made, so the Traffic Commissioners granted the application in September.

asked the Minister of Transport in what places in Great Britain he is investigating the possibility of employing the monorail type of transport; and, in particular, what new proposals he has for linking London Airport to central London by monorail.

asked the Minister of Transport what further consideration he has given to the plan for a monorail to London Airport.

I have informed the various monorail promoters that I am prepared to consider proposals for monorail transport on their merits. So far proposals have been made to me only in respect of a possible monorail link between central London and London Airport. None of the schemes put forward has been sufficiently comprehensive to permit a full assessment to be made of its possibilities.

Will my right hon. Friend continue to give every encouragement to this project? Everyone agrees that his fly-over has been successful and has speeded up the flow of traffic, and everyone also agrees that in this supersonic age we need a quicker way of getting out to London Airport, Gatwick and other airports?

If the people who are proposing to instal a monorail will give me full and comprehensive details I will look at them, but so far they have not done that. The plans which we have for improving the road to Heath Row will speed the journey. At the moment it takes thirty-five minutes from West London Air Terminal to Heath Row, and when we have finished it will take between eighteen and twenty-five minutes from the West London Air Terminal to Heath Row, which I think is a great improvement.

While it is encouraging to see that the Minister is prepared to look favourably upon a monorail scheme, if one is submitted to him—that is the interpretation which I place on his answer—does he not agree that he is very optimistic when he says that with all his improvements we shall be able to get to London Airport in twenty minutes by road? Is not the best long-term solution to get as much traffic as possible off the roads and to use a monorail and similar devices to transport people?

I do not know whether I am optimistic compared with the hon. Member. I did not say that I would look favourably on such a proposal. I tried to convey to the House that I would look dispassionately and intelligently at it.

asked the Minister of Transport to what extent his proposed traffic survey of Greater London will cover Middlesex; and what consultation he has had with Middlesex local authorities in regard to it.

The Greater London Traffic Survey covers the whole of Middlesex. The Middlesex County Council was consulted about the detailed design of the survey as it affects its area and is co-operating in drawing up the traffic zone plan for Middlesex. We have also invited all the borough and urban district councils in Middlesex to co-operate in providing any local information or help that the director of the Survey may require.

Does not the Minister know that a number of district councils are planning their own traffic surveys in connection with schemes of redevelopment? Does he not think that it would greatly assist them and avoid duplication if he would consult directly with them about these plans at an early date?

Local authorities, generally speaking, make their traffic surveys in regard to the effect on particular local needs, which is quite understandable. This one is for London as a whole, and the results will be made known to local authorities, which will have complete freedom of access to any recommendations that are made, without any charge to them whatever

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will revise the rules concerning rear lights on pedal cycles so that in future they will be brighter and thus contribute to greater safety on the roads at night.

My right hon. Friend has recently made Regulations for this purpose. The Road Vehicles Lighting (Amendment) Regulations, 1961, have the effect of requiring that after 18th October next all pedal cycles must have rear lamps which were manufactured to meet the relevant British Standard specification on light output.

While thanking my hon. Friend for that reply, which I am very glad to hear, may I ask him if he thinks that this regulation will overcome the danger which motorists feel—that, against the glare of on-coming headlights, they find it extremely difficult to see these rearlights on bicycles—and does he think that this danger has now been overcome?

I hope so. The specification based on the British Standard has been drawn up with this point very much in mind.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he has considered the report, which has been sent to him, of the Chief Constable of Leicester concerning the installation of parking meters in the centre of the city: and what advice he has given to other cities, and in particular the London boroughs, concerning ways of helping the flow of traffic and of restricting the parking of vehicles in congested areas other than by the installation of parking meters.

In 1957 my Department issued to local authorities a very full memorandum of advice on the control of traffic. My divisional road engineers are also continuously in touch with them on the subject. I have received no report directly from the Chief Constable of Leicester, but I am aware of his views on the traffic problems of that city. I am satisfied, however, that in London and many other seriously congested areas parking meters offer the best means of regulating parking. Where the parking demand is less overwhelming less rigid methods of control may be appropriate.

Will the Minister take the trouble to read the view of the Law Society's Gazette—more or less the official organ of one of his Joint Parliamentary Secretary's—where the opinion is expressed that the scheme in Leicester is a very good one, and where it is pointed out that with 32 wardens and the police at Leicester about 2,276 cases came before the courts in one year; whereas in one district where there were wardens only, in the course of six weeks over 1,300 cases were brought? Does the Minister realise that a lot of money could be saved and that the nerves of motorists would be strengthened if these traffic regulations were improved?

I shall certainly read the report to which the hon. Member referred, especially as it comes from legal sources and is concerned with traffic matters. The problem in London is entirely different from that of Leicester. It is of a different magnitude altogether. I do not think that the nerves of people in Leicester are being affected, and I certainly do not think that the Members of Parliament representing Leicester suffer from any nervous defect whatsoever.

asked the Minister of Transport what long-term proposals he has for the easing of traffic congestion and the protection of pedestrians in and adjacent to Western Avenue at Gipsy Corner and East Acton Circus.

A report is being prepared for the comprehensive improvement of this section of Western Avenue, including grade separation at certain major junctions. We cannot announce firm proposals until this has been considered. But as an interim measure a pedestrian subway will shortly be built at Allan Way, and others will be provided near Penryn Road and Wales Farm Road. A one-way traffic experiment is being considered to improve conditions at East Acton Circus.

I thank my hon. Friend for the encouraging part of that "curate's egg". May I ask whether he can inject a greater sense of urgency into the solving of this problem, particularly with relation to the East Acton Circus? Is he aware that, apart from the high accident rate from traffic flow in East Acton Circus, four police officers have to be taken off different work to spend two hours every evening trying to drain off the morass of congested traffic clogging this valve of the main artery from the Metropolis to the Principality?

I do not think that anything in my Answer would justify a complaint that we are not treating this matter with urgency. We are having a report prepared on the whole of Western Avenue and we are considering on experiment in one-way traffic at East Acton Circus.

asked the Minister of Transport what further reports have been received from the Road Research Laboratory about accidents at pedestrian crossings; what recommendations were made; and what action has been taken upon them.

Two further reports have been received. The first report compares the accident rate to pedestrians on and within 50 yards of zebra crossings. The other report surveys the risks to pedestrians crossing seven roads in West London. There are no formal recommendations in the reports, but one of them suggests that experiments be made with the provision of more zebra crossings in a sample area and with the substitution of light controlled crossings for zebra crossings. As I announced last June, I am proposing to carry out an experiment with the new push-button pedestrian crossings. I should prefer to await the outcome of this experiment before considering further the Laboratory's suggestions.

Will my right hon. Friend ask the Road Research Laboratory to comment on the suggestion about the possibility of having double white lines to the approach to pedestrian crossings?

That is another question, which I answered a few months ago. I will ask the Laboratory to look into it.

The answer given a few months ago was that the Laboratory was looking into this problem as a whole. Can my right hon. Friend say whether there was a specific comment on the possibility of double white lines?

No, not yet.

asked the Minister of Transport (1) how many accidents occurred on roundabouts in Yorkshire in 1961;

(2) how many roundabouts are under construction on the A.1.

During 1961, 306 accidents involving personal injury occurred at roundabouts in Yorkshire as a whole. Three roundabouts are at present under construction on the A.1, one of which will later form part of a flyover junction. There are 10 flyover junctions now being built on this road, 10 are already in use, and a further 42 are planned.

Is my hon. Friend aware that a good deal could be done to improve the design of many roundabouts. Is he aware that the curbstones round them are high and extremely dangerous? Will he look into the matter to see whether some improvement may be made in the near future?

I will take note of what my hon. Friend says and I should be grateful if he could give me specific instances of where this is necessary.

One example is the Dishforth roundabout, where there were 33 accidents in 1961.

asked the Minister of Transport (1) what is the present system of providing warnings on the M.1 of unpredictable hazards such as ice, fog or obstruction by damaged vehicles; and if he is satisfied that such a system is proving satisfactory;

(2) what consideration he has given to the provision, in cases of emergency hazards, of a system of illuminated signs along the M.1 controlled by the police from a central point or points; and what estimate of the probable cost of such a system has been obtained.

Large reflecting signs of recent design and with the legends "Ice," "Fog," "Accident" and "Roadworks" are held in readiness for immediate use when needed, and they have been generally effective. I am considering the possibility of an experiment with remotely controlled illuminated signs. Estimates of the total cost of such a system have not yet been prepared.

Would my right hon. Friend seriously consider this question of remotely controlled illuminated signs—say, amber lights on bridges on M.1—because if there is an accident it takes some time for the police to get out warning cones, and if there are patches of fog at the corners of roads these signs are not always visible to people on the road? In order to avoid accidents and the shunting of cars one on top of the other, it would be a help to have distant warning signs on the bridges.

I quite agree, and that is why I am carrying out the experiment.

asked the Minister of Transport when he hopes to replace the railway level-crossing at Darsham on the A.12 road by a bridge.

I cannot say when this scheme is likely to be included in the Trunk Road Programme. Its cost is high, and its value to traffic small compared with many other schemes.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that his reply will be very disappointing to people of East Suffolk'? They wonder why a great deal of money has been spent on widening bridges at Saxmundham and Martlesham on this road which did not impede traffic.

I will look into the question of the bridges which have been widened, but if contracts have been started it would be difficult to stop them. Everyone thinks that his own particular scheme is of greater value than that of anyone else.

asked the Minister of Transport why he did not include the main Bishop Auckland by-pass in the Durham County Council's rolling programme for the year 1963–64.

Because it was not of sufficiently high priority.

Does the hon. Gentleman recollect that when he answered a Question of mine of 15th November about the West Auckland by-pass he made some favourable comments and said that he would look at the question of whether it should be built in view of the economic difficulties of the area? Why has the Minister cut out of Durham County Council's rolling programme the Bishop Auckland by-pass, which is a preceding scheme of the West Auckland by-pass?

I understand that Durham County Council has put up three schemes to us for inclusion in the years, 1961 to 1964, inclusive. One of these schemes, at Holdforth, was selected for 1962–63. Another scheme, the Durham South Relief Road, was selected for the next year. No decision has yet been taken for 1964–65.

In view of the comment which he made that it looks to be a good scheme in relation to the economic background of the area, will he see that it is included in this 1963 programme?

No, Sir. I cannot do so. A lot will depend on the state of play at the time and the views of the county council on priorities.

asked the Minister of Transport how many road accidents which involved death or serious injury occurred in the twelve months to the last convenient date; and in what proportion of these cases a driver or rider of a motor vehicle was charged with a drink offence under the Road Traffic Acts, or would have been so charged had he not been killed or seriously injured.

During the twelve months preceding 30th November, 1961, there were 77,947 fatal and serious road accidents. A driver or rider of a motor vehicle was charged with a drink offence under the Road Traffic Acts, or would have been so charged had he not been killed or seriously injured, in about one-half of 1 per cent. of these accidents.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that these are remarkable figures and that they make it clear that in order to make any substantial reduction in the total number of serious accidents we must look to factors quite different from those of driving under the influence of drink? Has his attention been drawn to researches conducted by Mr. Leeming, the Chief Surveyor of the County of Dorset?

Yes, I have read the very frequent Press reports of what Mr. Leeming says from time to time. I disagree with most of them. The Road Research Laboratory in a normal period found that one or more of the people involved, whether drivers, riders or pedestrians, had been drinking shortly before the accident in about 18 per cent. of fatal or serious accidents. We shall tackle the problem of accident rates on every front, no matter how small or how large.

asked the Minister of Transport, having regard to the danger to people who have to cross the A.6074 road, Four Lane Ends to Middlestone Moor, Spennymoor, to catch buses from the east bound bus stop opposite the housing estate, whether he will revoke the derestriction order on this road.

The Durham County Council, which is the competent authority for this road, has asked my Department whether we would be prepared to agree to a 40 m.p.h. speed limit on the road. This request is being considered urgently, and I will let the hon. Member know the outcome.

While thanking the Minister for that reply, in anticipation of getting a better one later on, may I submit to him that this road is not only dangerous, but is becoming a nightmare to people wishing to cross because of the increased number of vehicles traveling at speeds of more than 50 miles an hour? May I also ask if he is aware that during the last three years there have been 44 accidents and suggest that if he does not revoke the order his safety first campaign will be a mockery?

I will certainly take note of what the hon. Member says and do what I can to speed up the consideration of this particular case.

asked the Minister of Transport what further consideration he has given to the road safety problem on the Noel Park Estate, Wood Green; and what action he intends to take in regard to it.

Our officers discussed this matter with the borough engineer in December. I understand that the Wood Green Borough Council expects to submit shortly to my right hon. Friend fresh proposals for traffic regulations on this estate.

Does the Minister realise that there is intense local feeling in Wood Green about the number of accidents and near-accidents on this estate? When the Minister receives this new plan from the Council, will he consider it sympathetically, bearing in mind that it has been prepared by local people with a close and long knowledge of the problems and should not lightly be turned down by Whitehall as the previous plan submitted to them was?

Obviously, we have to see the proposals before we can decide upon them, but we always take the very closest notice of what is said by people preparing such plans who, as the hon. Lady says, have intimate local knowledge of the circumstances.

asked the Minister of Transport what was the nature of the reply received from the Dartford Rural District Council to the letter sent by his Department in respect of the depositing by that council of a large number of caravans, lorries and sundry other articles on the grass verge of the A.2 trunk road, near Dartford, on 20th January.

I understand that, in accordance with the council's standing orders, my Department's letter has been referred to the appropriate committee. We expect to receive a reply after this committee's next meeting, which will be taking place shortly.

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that this was a rowdy meeting and that it was a dodge which put the matter off until the next meeting? Does he appreciate that the meeting will not be held for one month? Is he not aware that 300 people are living on the verge of one of our busiest roads and that deaths are expected at any moment? Is the Ministry going to be so spineless as to allow a council to act like this, having broken the law in Section 128 of the Highways Act? Cannot he do something about it and not wait a month? What would happen to an individual if he put something on the verge of a highway'? What will he do about it?

The hon. Gentleman has put a number of supplementary questions, and I cannot promise to answer them all.[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer one."] We have drawn the attention of the Council, whom we regard as primarily responsible in this matter, to the fact that these people have been put on the verge of a trunk road without any authority. We must go through the normal processes here, and we have asked the council to deal with the matter urgently. I understand that the next meeting of the appropriate committee is on 27th February, and I think we must give it the opportunity to have second thoughts on this matter and to take the action which we have asked it to take.

Is my hon. Friend aware that Dartford is not in the Erith and Crayford constituency? Will he please give such assistance as his Department can to all councils which have problems of gypsies on the highway?

The question of the problems of gypsies goes a little wider than my right hon. Friend's responsibilities. He is concerned here because these people have been allowed to go on the verge of a trunk road. I think that I should go far beyond the bounds of my right hon. Friend's responsibilities if I were to deal with the whole of this subject today.

Is the Minister aware that these people have been made to go where they are at the moment and to break the law? Apart from all these arguments which we have read about, is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that most people are horrified that human beings can be treated in this way?

asked the Minister of Transport if he will arrange, as a matter of urgency, for litter bins to be provided for the use of the people occupying caravans deposited on the verge of the A.2 trunk road near Dartford and also for the clearing of these bins at suitable intervals to ensure that this section of the trunk road is as free from litter as possible.

No, Sir. It is not the responsibility of my right hon. Friend to provide litter bins on trunk roads, except at lay-bys. Local authorities, however, have power to provide litter bins on highways, with the consent of the highway authority. The clearing of litter bins is a matter for the local authority.

Is it not a fact that the Kent County Council has refused to act as agents in this particular case? Is it not revolting that for one month come Saturday 300 people have been on the verge of the road without toilets, without dustbins and without litter bins? How can this go on in this country in 1962? Will not the Government do something about it?

As I said in my original Answer, these matters are not the responsibility of my right hon. Friend.

They are your roads. Why do not you do something about it?

asked the Minister of Transport whether he was satisfied with the measures introduced to speed the flow of London traffic on Monday, 5th February; and whether he intends to make some of these measures permanent.

The results of these measures varied considerably. I am discussing with the Commissioner of Police whether some of them should be reintroduced in normal circumstances.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the motoring public is generally appreciative of the success of these measures and would like to congratulate the police authorities and officials concerned on implementing them so well? Can he consider the possibility of trying similar methods, perhaps for a complete week, so that full information on their success can be obtained?

Some of these measures were extremely successful and others were not successful. It largely depends on the number of small improvements to the road system which can be carried out, such as altering a refuge or smoothing out a corner, which demonstrated quite clearly that if we go into these improvements very carefully we can get an enormous dividend from them. In principle, there is no doubt that the one-way system would be very much better than having two-way traffic.

Was not one of the most important contributing factors towards the traffic flow on 5th February the fact that many private motorists were frightened of bringing their cars into London on that day?

That was a contributory factor, but not the only one.

Can my right hon. Friend say how many pedestrians were killed and injured as a result of this new system of one-way roads in the West End? If he intends to go on with the scheme, will he make quite certain that the interests of pedestrians are safeguarded?

I could not answer that without notice, but I know that on the Tottenham Court Road—Gower Street one-way system the traffic is now nearly twice as fast as it was, accidents are 70 instead of 100, and the roads can now carry 30 per cent. more capacity. Therefore, I should have thought that the one-way system has proved itself successful.

asked the Minister of Transport if he is aware that Marlow Bridge is deteriorating rapidly; and if, in view of this, he will announce his decision about the future of this bridge.

I appreciate the need for an early decision. But as my hon. Friend knows, I have promised first to consult the many local and other interests. I hope soon to start these consultations.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that if I said I was disappointed with that answer it would be the understatement of the week? Is he further aware that it is now over five years since the two county councils concerned agreed that this bridge should be repaired and preserved? Will not the Minister say something, even if it is only "Goodbye"?

I am very grateful for my hon. Friend's qualified support, but I am bound to say that we are in very close contact with the councils. On the question of the Marlow Bridge there is a diversity of opinion between a large number of people and the authorities. All I can say is——

"Cheerio".

—that the analysis of the traffic survey and consultation was completed by the Buckingham County Council last December. So we have not been slow. Perhaps the council has.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will impose a 40 miles per hour speed limit on the stretch of Bradford Road in Riddlesden, which is at present derestricted.

Yes, Sir. We shall shortly be giving notice of our intention to impose a 40 m.p.h. speed limit.

asked the Minister of Transport if he is aware of the diverse nature of public lighting on trunk roads; and if he will encourage lighting authorities to provide a uniform type of public lighting in due course.

Yes, Sir. That is why I encourage lighting authorities to provide on trunk roads a uniform standard of illumination and to avoid sharp differences between adjoining lengths.

Has the Minister also consulted the Road Users' Association to ensure that, whatever standard type of public lighting is approved, it will be acceptable to all concerned and satisfy all the interests that it is the best form of accident prevention lighting which we can possibly have on our highways at present?

Yes. Representatives of road users were on the recent Committee which recommended on uniform street lighting.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that by far the best sort of lighting, whether it is raining or whether it is dry, is what I think is called the red sodium lighting?

The best sort of lighting varies with the circumstances of the particular road. If there are trees, one sort of lighting is needed. If there are not trees, another sort of lighting is preferable. The type of lighting wanted really depends on the circumstances.

Does the Minister recognise that at some school crossings on trunk roads no lighting is provided? Will he look into this matter, because during the winter months there are traffic wardens conducting school children across these crossings and motorists come upon them in inadequate lighting conditions?

If the hon. Gentleman would give me particulars of any case he has in mind where these dangerous conditions apply, I will certainly look into it.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will permit the Cornwall Highways Committee to carry out more improvement schemes before the end of the current financial year.

A further grant of £20,100 was issued recently to Cornwall County Council for small schemes. My right hon. Friend is also issuing a grant of £36,750 to the county for a scheme on A.39 near Penryn. This will bring the county's total grant for classified roads in this financial year to £236,500. In addition, trunk road schemes committed so far within the county in the current financial year are expected to cost some £133,000.

I thank the Parliamentary Secretary for that answer, but will he bear in mind that the Cornwall Highways Committee could carry on many more small improvement schemes if the Government released grants for them before the end of the financial year, that unemployment tends to increase in Cornwall at this time of the year, and that these small improvement schemes are a very valuable factor towards securing road safety?

Yes, we are aware of all those factors.

asked the Minister of Transport what is the present position with regard to the Leicestershire portion of the London-Yorkshire motorway.

We have continued to make good progress with the statutory processes and the engineering preparation of this motorway. If all goes well, we hope to let contracts for the first sections, in Northamptonshire and Leicestershire, this summer.

Will the Minister say that the hope is a definite undertaking that something will be done? Does he realise that people nowadays are beginning to ask whether he is dealing with the M.1 road or with the "long, long trail"?

If I had been able to give a definite undertaking I should have given it. I must stick to the word in my Answer—"hope".

As we now have rather more definite information, can the Minister say how far this first section will be carried? Will it be carried so far as to by-pass Nottingham?

I cannot without notice give the hon. Member that information. The first section will not carry traffic beyond Leicester, but I should like to have notice before replying about the exact ending point of this first section.

Can the Parliamentary Secretary give any information about when he hopes the whole thing will be finished and we get the road up to Yorkshire?

No, not at this stage.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he has received a report of matters arising at a conference, attended by officials from his Department, which was held in Liverpool on 18th January to consider Merseyside transport problems; and what action is being taken.

Yes, Sir. I understand that the local authorities have agreed to set up a steering committee to consider highway and traffic matters and the coordination of transport on Merseyside, and they have asked their chief officers to advise, within two months, on what technical sub-committees are necessary to deal with these problems.

I am obliged for that answer. Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that he will do whatever he can to ensure that the whole matter is speedily dealt with?

Yes, I certainly can give that assurance. The hon. and learned Gentleman and I are Members for Merseyside. I hope that they will follow the rest of the country and have a Committee that will co-ordinate traffic over the whole physical area.