asked the Minister of Education whether his attention has been called to the Report of the British Council which comments on the problem of teaching English abroad and the need for training teachers for this purpose; and what action he proposes to take on the Council's recommendations in this respect.

Yes Sir, I have read the report with great appreciation. The main recommendation is for the establishment of a career service in teaching English abroad. The Second Commonwealth Education Conference, which was held at Delhi in January, welcomed a British proposal for the creation of such a service and the practical details are being worked out.

Will the Minister say whether he is making arrangements for the training of teachers in view of the difficulty in this country, or perhaps in one of the Commonwealth countries, of filling the gaps for teachers in the various countries?

The object of this service is to train experts who in their turn will train those who are to teach English in the Commonwealth.

asked the Minister of Education what representations he has received from health or other authorities about the effect of excessive glass in school buildings on the health and eyesight of children; and what action he proposes to take in this matter.

I would refer the hon. Member to the Eighth Report of the Estimates Committee for the Session 1960–61 and to my observations on it, which describe the action I propose.

asked the Minister of Education what steps he is taking to implement the recommendations of the Commonwealth Education Conference at New Delhi.

asked the Minister of Education what action he is taking upon the recommendations of the Commonwealth Education Conference at New Delhi.

The recommendations on which this country can take action are being actively considered. Steps are also being taken to implement the offers for new developments made by the British delegation.

Will the Minister take steps to ensure that the Report of the New Delhi Conference is made available to Members of Parliament through the Vote Office? Is he aware that there is only one copy in the House of Commons—in the Library—available for all hon. Members who are interested? On the general question of the Conference, would he not agree that the results are rather disappointing in relation to the kind of hopes we had had of this organisation? Will Her Majesty's Government do everything they can to make sure that they play their part in making the kind of resources available which will enable this very important scheme of Commonwealth mutual aid to make satisfactory progress?

On the first point, I have made arrangements that the Report shall be published and made available to hon. Members. On the second point, I agree that this is a most interesting and valuable development. The British delegation took the lead in proposing an extension, but not all Commonwealth countries seem prepared to put up the resources we would like.

Will the Minister give an assurance that the proposals made at the New Delhi Conference for the admission of technicians and craftsmen to this country to work for six months in British industry will not be affected by any of the provisions of the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill?

Yes, I can give that assurance.

asked the Minister of Education what proposals he has for checking the drift of male teachers from primary to secondary schools.

Teachers of both sexes have been moving from the primary schools where school rolls have been declining to the secondary schools where they have been rising. Local education authorities are aware that the pressure of numbers in the primary schools is about to be renewed and will know how best to deploy the teachers in their service.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that I have recently met schoolmasters with a real vocation for primary teaching who are compelled by economic reasons to transfer to secondary schools in order to obtain posts of responsibility? Could he not suggest to the Burnham Committee that now is the time when the Committee might look again at the scale of units on which those posts are graded and paid?

The facts are that the proportion of men receiving payments above scale for responsibility is greater in the primary schools than in the secondary schools, but I agree with my hon. Friend that we need more men in the primary schools.

Is the Minister aware that, apart from any disparity in the opportunities for posts of special responsibility, there is still in the Burnham scale financial inequality as between primary and secondary schools? If he believes—as we believe he does—in the importance of primary education, does he not think it time that we had a nearer approach to parity between the two branches?

It is not always popular when I say what I would like the Burnham Committee to do.

asked the Minister of Education how many primary schools provide a remedial class for backward readers; and whether provision for such a class is made in deciding the quota of teaching staff of each primary school.

The arrangements for giving special help to backward readers vary from one place to another. Precise statistical information is not available. I do not fix quotas for individual schools but the formula used in calculating quotas for each local education authority makes an allowance for special classes in ordinary schools.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that at a primary school in my constituency, which happens to be fortunate enough to have a remedial class for backward readers, I have seen children brought forward from a nil reading ability last September up to the average ability of 9-year-olds and 10-year-olds in January? Could he not, on this his namesake's day in the Church calendar, decide to take more active steps to increase the more universal provision of these facilities?

I agree with my hon. Friend that these special classes produce remarkable results, and I should like to see them increased

Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that this work can be particularly well done by married women, teaching possibly part-time who are ex-quota?

I think that suggestion is well worth pursuing.

asked the Minister of Education what discussions he has had with the committee of vice-chancellors of the universities about the inclusion of the colleges of advanced technology in the proposed clearing house for university admissions.

In the first instance, this is a matter for the Committee of Principals of Colleges of Advanced Technology.

Would not the Minister agree that the handicap here is not the principals of colleges of advanced technology but the vice-chancellors of the universities, and that it is highly desirable that the colleges of advanced technology should be included in any clearing house scheme for the various departments of the universities?

I understand that conversations are about to begin between the principals of the colleges of advanced technology and the Central Council for University Admissions, and I hope very much that they will be successful.

asked the Minister of Education whether he will act upon the recommendation in the Seventh Report of the Oversea Migration Board concerning higher education for the skilled and professional manpower which is now needed in the Commonwealth.

I have seen this Report, and I agree that the needs of the developing countries for skilled and professional manpower are very great. These requirements are taken into account in our educational planning. Educational institutions in this country train a large number of people from overseas and make a major contribution to meet the needs of the Commonwealth.

As my right hon. Friend acknowledges the real increasing need, especially in the less developed countries of the Commonwealth, for this sort of manpower, will he, especially in conjunction with my right hon. Friend the Minister for Technical Co-operation, launch a wide-ranging and imaginative drive to ensure that the supply matches up with this demand?

Both my right hon Friend and I are very well aware of the need, but we have already 55,000 full-time students from overseas in the United Kingdom, 12,000 in universities, 13,000 in technical colleges and 1,400 in teacher-training institutions. This is more than any other country does, but I am not content with it.

asked the Minister of Education whether he has received the report from the British Council of Rehabilitation on the needs of handicapped school leavers; and if he will make a statement.

My right hon. Friend hopes to receive this report by the end of the year.

Will my hon. Friend take steps to have the report published? Will he also bear in mind how important it is that this section of our school children should receive the maximum support they can get, because at the moment they are not getting quite as good a deal as the rest of the school leavers?

I agree with the latter remarks of my hon. Friend, and I will consider his proposal about publication of the report.

asked the Minister of Education what steps he has taken, in co-operation with transport contractors and school authorities, to ensure orderly behaviour on school buses.

This is a matter for local education authorities, which are responsible for arranging school transport.

Does not the Minister remember that he said in the House a month or so ago that he was having consultations with the local authorities about this and was proposing some sort of new scheme? Who is responsible for the maintenance of discipline on these buses after school hours? Is it the school or the contractor?

It is for the local authorities to make arrangements with the transport contractors which are satisfactory. In the case which the hon. Gentleman knows, there was an unfortunate incident, and I hope that it will not occur again.

Is it not possible to establish bus wardens, on similar lines to the traffic wardens, to do this work?

I will consider that.

asked the Minister of Education if he is aware of the uneconomic burden placed upon the county education committee by the continued use of two buildings for junior mixed and infant departments in the Peases West schools, Crook, Co. Durham; and what proposal he has approved to improve such conditions in the near future.

I understand that the local education authority is working out a scheme to bring all the children at the Peases West primary school into one building, but it has not yet been put to me for approval.

Is the Minister aware that I started my educational career in one of the buildings that is still in use, with high and narrow windows, often with shadows across the desks, and very often with artificial lighting? Is he also aware that the local education authority included it in a minor works programme, but that his Ministry has halved that programme, which is delaying the progress of this authority? Will he look at these projects in a more favourable light?

When I get this scheme, I shall look at it urgently, but the school seems to have done well in respect of the hon. Gentleman.

asked the Minister of Education what was the total amount of work submitted, and the figure approved, for the minor capital works programme for 1961–62 and 1962–63 by the Durham County Education Committee.

The authority origin ally asked for allocations of£450,000 for each of these years. It spent about£156,000 between 1st April and 30th September, 1961, and under current arrangements can spend a further£220,000 up to 31st March, 1963, without counting works costing less than£2,000.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say when he will be able to make a more specific statement about the minor works programme, and whether he will be able to remove the effect of these cuts altogether?

I should like to be able to make it shortly, but we shall have to wait to see how the economic circumstances go.

Is the Minister aware of the feeling of discontent among the county education authorities in regard to these cuts in the minor works programme of over 50 per cent.? Is he aware that only yesterday the county authority declared an increase of Is. 6d. in its rates, and also that there is a limit to the rate call to be borne by the local authorities which is being shed by the central authority? Is it not a matter of neglect by the Government? Surely, the sins of the fathers are now being felt by these children?

All authorities regret that the minor works allocation has been cut. The second part of the hon. Gentleman's Question raises a very different issue.

asked the Minister of Education what were his grounds for reducing the Northumberland County Education Authority's allocation of£225,000 per annum for the two years ended March, 1961, for minor works to£100,000 per year from 1st October, 1961, to March, 1963; what consultations he had with the county authorities; and whether he made a survey to find out the needs of the county before the decision was made.

I announced last July that allocations for minor works would have to be reduced as part of the Government's financial measures. No special survey of the county's needs was made, but my officers corresponded with those of the authority before the reduction in Northumberland's allocation was announced.

Is the Minister aware that I sought information from the Director of Education on what consultations had been made and that he tells me that the only consultation was in this letter, consisting of nothing but figures? Is he further aware that if it is necessary to cut down educational finance, we surely do not simply cut it down by the same average without considering the individual needs of each county and whether the estimate of one county is in harmony with the urgent needs of that county? The Minister has made no examination of Northumberland. Is there not mare urgency there than in some other districts, and should it not get a bigger allocation? The Minister seems to have a slipshod method of fixing these things.

I understand the hon. Gentleman's anxiety, but I can assure him that we do our best to take the relative needs of each local education authority into consideration in apportioning the minor works allocation.

asked the Minister of Education what steps his Department are taking to reduce overcrowding in the Brierton County Modern Schools in West Hartlepool; and whether he will make a statement.

The local education authority are being informed today that a new secondary school for 450 children is being included in the 1963–64 building programme. This will relieve the overcrowding at Brierton.

asked the Minister of Education what is the present average teacher-pupil ratio in maintained secondary schools and primary schools, respectively.

The pupil-teacher ratios in January, 1961, were 28·6 in maintained primary—including all-age—schools and 20·4 in maintained secondary schools. These ratios take account of full-time equivalent of part-time teachers.

Is the Minister not aware that in the independent secondary schools the ratio is said to be thirteen or thereabouts? With the acute shortage of teachers, has he considered suggesting a voluntary quota for the independent schools?

No, Sir. I think that the independent schools are what they say they are—independent.

In view of the very wide range of intellectual ability, which is much wider in primary classes than in later classes, cannot the Minister take steps to bring down the size of primary classes into better relationship with those of secondary classes? There is a much wider range of ability in primary than in secondary classes.

It is my aim to bring down this ratio, but we are in great difficulties owing to the exceptional wastage of women teachers from the primary schools.

asked the Minister of Education what annual pension a schoolmaster and teacher retiring on full basic pension in 1945, in 1950, in 1955, and in 1960, respectively, would now be receiving; and what percentage of the 1961 basic maximum salary these pensions represent.

As the Answer contains sixteen figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Will the Minister bring to the notice of the Chancellor of the Exchequer the great hardship which these persons are undergoing at present owing to the smallness of their pensions? Will he bring it to the notice of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in order that he may deal with it when he introduces his Budget in April?

My right hon. and learned Friend has to consider the needs of a great number of pensioners, and he always has them in mind.

asked the Minister of Education why, under his regulations, Mr. M. B. Spence, of 65, Crosland Road, Oakes, Huddersfield, who is due to retire from the teaching profession at the age of 65 years, will have two years less pensionable service to his credit, the facts being that he was engaged on war, service in the years 1917–19 and that he could not gain acceptance for admission to a recognised training college during the 1914–18 war because of his liability for war service.

Mr. Spence did not satisfy the conditions laid down in the rules governing the treatment for pension purposes of 1914–18 war service done by intending teachers. The rules are statutory and I have no power to waive or vary them.

Will the Minister look into this case to make quite sure that there is no mistake? In a letter from his Ministry to the local education committee, a copy of which was sent to me by Mr. Spence, it states,

"According to information before the Ministry Mr. Spence left school in 1919."

I have looked into this and I have found that Mr. Spence was a pupil teacher before joining the Army.

Is the Minister aware that for nearly ten years we on this side of the House have been trying to persuade him and his predecessors to take the power which he has to change the rules which at present penalise some old teachers merely because they served this country in the First World War? As these men have now reached the age at which they are drawing their depleted pensions, will he not again give his consideration to the point?

The answer to that supplementary question is the answer to the next Question.

asked the Minister of Education whether he will introduce legislation to provide that teachers who, owing to war service in the 1914–18 war, were prevented from being admitted to or accepted for admission to a recognised training college until after the termination of their war service, shall for the purposes of calculating their superannuation benefits, be placed on the same footing as those who had been admitted, or accepted for admission, to a recognised training college.

No, Sir. Under the present rules, which were accepted by the teachers' representatives in 1926 as final, teachers are more favourably treated in this respect than other public servants.

Is there not an anomaly? A man whose desire always has been to go into teaching applies to be accepted for admission to a training college in 1916. He is told that if he is fit for war service he will not be accepted. He is passed as fit, joins the Forces and serves from 1917 to 1919. He then goes into the teaching profession, and he has been there ever since. Now, when he is about to retire, he is told that his pension rights have been reduced because he was not accepted for admission before joining the Forces.

It is an established principle of public service pensions schemes that account should be taken of war service only when this occurs after a person has entered pensionable civil employment. That rule was stretched for teachers, because when they entered a teacher-training college they were allowed to count that part of their training towards their pension.

If he had been accepted for admission, even though he had not actually entered a college, his pension rights would have been retained, but his rights are reduced simply because he could not be accepted because they would not accept him if he were fit for war service. Surely that is ridiculous.

I do not see how we could put everybody back in the position he would have been in if there had not been a war.

asked the Minister of Education whether he will state the number of qualified educational psychologists at present employed by local education authorities in England and Wales.

The number is 269.

Is my hon. Friend satisfied that that is enough to cover the whole country? May I suggest that it is nothing like enough and that unless he increases these numbers there is no possibility of knowing exactly the size of the problem of educational psychology in our schools? This is a matter of the utmost urgency. Will he get a move on and do something about it?

My hon. Friend is quite right and I accept his sense of urgency in this matter. We are trying to increase the number of educational psychologists available in the service.

What is my hon. Friend doing about it?

There is an additional training course for those wishing to become educational psychologists starting at the University of Manchester. We are introducing some new and revised financial arrangements which we hope will encourage local authorities to second teachers for this training.

asked the Minister of Education if he will make a further statement on the experience gained from the special class for gypsy children at the Stone Church of England Primary School; and what consideration is being given to an extension of this form of approach in Kent and other counties of England and Wales so as to deal effectively with some of the human problems involved.

The experience of this class confirms that sympathetic treatment at an ordinary school is suitable for gypsy children. This is the general view of local education authorities who have to deal with this problem.

While thanking the Minister for the excellent report and congratulating the headmaster and the staff on their wonderful work, may I ask the Minister whether he does not agree that it underlines the need for a special approach, if we are to catch up with the backlog of neglect, when so often the need is first to teach social behaviour before teaching the alphabet? Is it not wrong, as so often happens, to put a ten-year-old gypsy boy into a school with ten-year-olds who attend regularly? This is often done, with very disappointing results?

As the hon. Member knows, the first thing is to get hold of the gypsy children. I believe that teachers are very sympathetic when these children come into their schools.

Is the Minister aware that the problem of gypsies is a great problem in a large number of constituencies? Will he not circularise education authorities throughout the country asking them to deal with the problem of teaching them on similar lines to those outlined in the Question?

My estimation is that the education authorities are very well aware of this problem.

Is the Minister aware that this is the only example of its kind? Is it not a case that one can go to school after school and see an odd gypsy child in each, often very much out of place? Do we not need this special approach?

We cannot have a special class unless we can get enough gypsy children to make one.

asked the Minister of Education what consideration was given at the recent Commonwealth Education Conference at Delhi to a gradual reform of English spelling.

The Conference stessed the importance of English as a means of Commonwealth and world communication, but there was no suggestion that its development was hindered by spelling.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that it would be the biggest boost to the English language if spelling were simplified? In view of the fact that the Government are taking the initiative in so many different things these days, will he not do so in this matter?

I must tell my hon. Friend that I have a certain prejudice in favour of English as she is spelled now.

Does not the Minister agree, without prejudice to that prejudice, (that the advantage of the alphabet lies only in the learning process, and if it is discovered in this country that the learning process is fostered by developing the alphabet alphabetic ally, as it were, would it not be a good thing to use it also for the process of learning the English language, having regard to the fact that "on" spells "on," that "ce" spells "ki", or "see" but that o-n-c-e spells neither "onke" nor "onsee" but "wuns"? Pity the poor foreigner!

My hon. Friend's interest in this matter is well-known and appreciated. He has initiated some experiments to which he knows I have given my support.

In spite of the Minister's prejudices, many of which we on this side know very well, will he devote his very careful attention, as he has just suggested he might, to the experiments which have been conducted by the University of London into the teaching of spelling by means of a reformed alphabet?

Yes, I will.

I welcome my right hon. Friend's prejudice in favour of English as she is spoken and spelled now. Will he do his best to spread and communicate this prejudice throughout Whitehall?

asked the Minister of Education what consideration he has given to recently published research by Hollingworth, Robb and others, a copy of which has been sent to him, on the educational handicaps suffered by children with I.Qs. of over 175; how many such children he has estimated there are in England and Wales; and how he proposes to make adequate provision for them.

I read with interest recent articles about exceptionally gifted children, in one of which the author estimated that between 25 and 50 children in England and Wales have an I.Q. above 175. Local education authorities and schools are alive to the needs of highly intelligent children, including the ablest, and I doubt if it is desirable to segregate them.

Have the Minister's research people really gone into this? Do they agree with the American view now that this small group of children should be regarded as educationally handicapped? They make a nuisance of themselves in class and are very unhappy? Does he not think that there is much to be said for setting up a small residential unit for this group of super geniuses? Will he at any rate refer this matter to the National Foundation for Educational Research?

I have consulted the Foundation. Dr. Wall estimates that the number of children with I.Q.s over 175 is one or two in a million, which is rather different from the estimate I gave before. On this issue I am really not in favour of departing from comprehensive education.

Can the Minister tell us how many Members of the House have an I.Q. of 175 or more?

There is an age limit here and so it does not arise on this Question.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I give notice that I shall seek an opportunity to raise the matter on the Adjournment

asked the Minister of Education how many all-age schools remain in Hampshire.

Two, of which one will be reorganised very shortly on the opening of the Hayling County Secondary School.

Is the Minister aware that the surviving one is a Roman Catholic School in which children aged from 11 to 15 spend the whole of their secondary school life in two classrooms? There is no provision for handicraft. There is no domestic science room. There are none of the amenities of secondary-modern education. These children are being deprived of their birthright. Will the right hon. Gentleman do what he can to expedite the demand of the Roman Catholic community that this school appears in an early school building programme?

Yes. I have looked at this school. I agree that it should be reorganised, but I understand that there have been some difficulties about finding a site.

asked the Minister of Education what reductions he has made in the minor works programme of the Newcastle-upon-Tyne local education authority; and why such reductions have been made.

I announced last July that allocations for minor works would have to be reduced as part of the Governments financial measures. The effect in Newcastle is that their minor works expenditure in 1961–63 will amount to£37,000 contracted for in the first six months of 1961–62,£60,000 for the rest of the two-year period and a further sum at the authority's discretion for projects costing less than£2,000 each. This replaces the previous allocations of£85,000 and£110,000 for all minor works in the two years.

Is the Minister aware that that is a reduction of more than 50 per cent.? Why has he turned down the request of the Education Committee to increase this by£10,000? Is he aware that in an old city like this there are a great many old schools which need to be brought up to standard? We are very grateful for this slight help with the items under£2,000, but does he not realise that this is inadequate to bring the old schools up-to-date? Can he not review the matter?

I will review it just as soon as I can have a larger allocation.

asked the Minister of Education if he will publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT the figures for local education authorities in Wales, normally included in the selected statistics published by his Department, to the latest possible date.

The figures for which the hon. Lady asks are now with the printers and will be published in about two weeks. I will send the hon. Lady a copy as soon as I possibly can.

Is the Minister aware that at present the only figures one can obtain for individual education authorities are those to 1st January, 1959? I believe that the figures he has just referred to will be only to 1st January, 1960, in other words, still more than two years out of date. Can he not do something to speed up the statistical division of his Department?

I regret the delay, but in this case it is due to turning over to a new system of statistics. Therefore, I hope that it will not happen again.

How quickly shall we be able to obtain these statistics in future? Will they always be more than one year behind time?

We shall do better than we have done in the past. That is the object of the reorganisation.

asked the Minister of Education what was the original allocation for minor works from 1961 to 1963 for the Sunderland Education Authority; and what is the revised allocation for that period.

Minor works expenditure in Sunderland in 1961–63 will amount to£57,000 contracted for in the first six months of 1961–62,£30,000 for the rest of the two-year period, and a further sum at the authority's discretion for projects costing less than£2,000 each. This replaces the previous allocations of£50,000 and£60,000 for all minor works in the two years.

Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that this is a deplorable economy, in view of the disparities between the old and new schools in Sunderland? Does he further realise that this economy takes a very real toll of manpower, technical and administrative, which is in short supply?

These cuts in minor works were made precisely because at the time the building industry was overloaded and this was the part of the educational programme where relief could be most quickly given.

asked the Minister of Education What is the approximate number and percentage of grammar school pupils in the administrative county of Essex, and in the Whole country, who are annually considered either to be unsuitable for such type of education or have been transferred to other types of schools and what is, in both cases, the approximate number of secondary modern school pupils who are annually transferred to grammar schools.

The local education authority tell me that between one and two per cent. of thirteen-year-old pupils in Essex have in recent years been transferred from modern to grammar or technical schools. Transfers in the reverse direction are negligible. No comparable statistics are collected for the country as a whole.

Does the absence of any figures showing how many have been transferred from grammar schools to other types of schools mean that a large number are unsuitable for this kind of education? Is there not abundant evidence to indicate that the 11-plus examination is both unsuitable and deceptive as a means of determining the type of future education children should undergo? In these circumstances, what is being done about it?

The arrangements for transfer are entirely within the discretion of the local authority. The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that promotion is much easier than demotion. I do not think it is fair to say that the 11-plus examination is working unfairly.

It is. There are a certain number—quite a large number in some cases—of boys and girls in grammar schools who would be better off in other kinds of secondary education, and vice versa.

Before the Minister replies to my hon. Friend, may I ask him if he agrees that one of the arguments for comprehensive education is that such transfers downwards in that system do not create difficulties for children who would be very much better off not in a grammar school?

I have no figures to show how many children might be eligible for demotion, but I should think the number is very small.

asked the Minister of Education if he will consult representatives of both the education committees and appropriate professional organisations in the geographical County of Essex on the most suitable form of local government re-organisation in respect of education.

I am always ready to consider views which may be put to me on this topic by such persons and bodies.

Is not that a rather negative and passive reply? Does not the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that, as education has very special characteristics which might be affected by local government reorganisation, he should himself initiate consultations with all bodies intimately concerned with education so that he, having received representations from them, could bring to bear some influence on the Minister now engaged in local government reorganisation in the Greater London area?

I have looked at the evidence which all these bodies gave to the Herbert Committee. I assume that they would stand by what they said. If they wish to write to me on the recommendations of the Committee, modified by the White Paper, I am ready to hear what they have to say.

Will my right hon. Friend give an undertaking that, if he does see representatives of the Essex Education Committee, he will, at the same time, see elected representatives as well as officials?

If they have any views, I would much prefer them to write to me in the first instance.

asked the Minister of Education if he can yet state his decision on the proposal for rebuilding St. Illtyds College, Cardiff, and for increasing the capacity of the county secondary schools and primary infants schools at Llanrumney and Rumney, Cardiff.

The rebuilding of St. Illtyd's College can start in 1962–63. Extensions to the Llanrumney Boys' and Llanrumney Girls' and Caer Castell County Secondary Schools, together with the provision of a new primary school, are included in the authority's 1963–64 building programme, particulars of which it should have received today.

While I thank the Minister for his reply and his civility, can he tell me—as this is the fourth time I have put down a Question on the subject—how many of the 1,220 places for which the local authority have asked will be met?

I must have notice of that question.

asked the Minister of Education whether he will publish in HANSARD a table of figures giving, since 1951, the percentage annual rise in the cost of school building, taking 1951 as being equal to 100; and to what extent these rises in costs were responsible for the increase in expenditure on educational buildings from 1951–60.

With permission, I will publish a table in the OFFICIAL REPORT giving, year by year, an index of cost per school place and an index of work done on all educational building. It shows that between 1951 and 1961 the cost of a school place increased by a quarter, while value of work done more than doubled.

asked the Minister of Education in view of the changed financial circumstances of the Edinburgh medical student, details of whom have been sent to him by the honourable Member for Dunfermline Burghs, if he will investigate the possibility of an increased educational grant to enable him to complete his studies.

I will write to the hon. Member when I have consulted the Kent local education authority about the details of this student's case. I sympathise with the student concerned, and I much regret that his parents should have refused to support him because he has become a Roman Catholic.

May I thank the Minister for that reply, and urge upon him the need for quick action? Since this student has had his allowance cancelled he has been left completely penniless and has had to work 17 hours a day at a canning factory in order to pursue his medical studies. I should be grateful for quick action.

If the hon. Gentleman will leave it to me and to the Kent Authority, we will see what we can do.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what are the terms of the bilateral sugar agreement recently concluded with South Africa.

The terms of this agreement were set out in my written reply to my honourable friend the Member for Edinburgh, West (Mr. Stodart) on 15th November last.

But do not those terms show that this year we are making a subsidy of£2,700,000 to the Republic of South Africa? When within the Commonwealth we have countries like Jamaica—and the West Indies generally—and Mauritius, which are sugar-producing countries and in which heavy unemployment is leading to emigration to this country, would it not be much better to concentrate on those territories now that South Africa is outside the Commonwealth?

No, Sir. What it shows is that we have for a long time now had a long-term agreement with South Africa to purchase sugar, and it would not be in the interests of our trading relations with South Africa or, indeed, in the wider interests, or the interests of the producers in Swaziland if this payment was reduced very rapidly. In all the circumstances, we have made a most reasonable agreement with South Africa.

If we boycotted South African goods, would not the South African retaliate? Would we not lose exports, and would not our industrial workers suffer as a consequence?

I am able to tell my hon. Friend that that is a purely hypothetical question.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether, in order to curtail the spread of disease by birds, he will ask milk distributors to fit plastic, instead of silver paper, caps on all milk bottles.

No, Sir. I am advised by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health that he has no medical evidence that would warrant this action.

Has the Minister any evidence at all of the great nuisance this is? If he lived in the countryside himself he would know that this is happening every day, and he would know of the very strong feeling there is among country people that disease is produced in this way, and that a great deal of milk is wasted as a consequence?

There is no medical evidence to warrant the suggested change. It is true that birds, in their search for food, have discovered that the coloured tops of milk bottles lead them in the direction of something they want, but a very strong case would have to be put up before it was suggested that any substitute for aluminium foil should be employed, and aluminium foil is very useful for this purpose.

Could the hon. Gentleman not arrange with his right hon. Friend to set up some sort of inquiry into the possibility of disease being spread in this way? As he knows, disease is widespread throughout the country?

Some attention has certainly been given to this matter, but the evidence is that there is no widespread disease.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what further consideration he has given to the problem of brucellosis in cattle; and if he will now prohibit the sale of a suspected animal until suspicion is cleared.

As I explained to the hon. Member on 7th December and subsequently in correspondence, our policy is to attack this disease by means of calfhood vaccination, and my right hon. Friend is starting a free calf vaccination service on 1st May next. We are satisfied that movement controls, apart from those imposed by the Epizootic Abortion Order, 1922, would not be practicable or useful at the present time.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that vaccination does nothing to prevent milk passing on infection to human beings? Has he studied foreign legislation on the point; for example, the regulations in New York? Why does he defend a system that enables an animal known to be infected to be sold?

We have, of course, studied foreign legislation but, at the present time, movement controls of themselves would not be of practical value because, since vaccination has taken place at varying ages according to the herd concerned, it is very difficult to identify the infected cattle, and without identifying all the infected cattle it is not possible to operate a system of eradication. After several years of vaccination of calves, things may change when further steps may be taken.

Owing to the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I will seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will state for each year since 1950 the production and the net income of the agricultural industry; and if he will present the figures in such a form that they can be compared with the relationship between income and productivity recently set out in the Command Paper entitled Incomes Policy: The Next Step.

I will, with permission, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a table showing the index of agricultural net output together with figures of the industry's income from 1950 to 1960. This shows that net output rose by 19 per cent., the incomes of those contributing to it, i.e. farmers, farmworkers and landowners, 26 per cent., and the incomes of farmers by themselves, 32 per cent. The Command Paper on Incomes Policy, to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers, is concerned with general principles for the economy as a whole.

Cannot the general principles be applied to an industry about which the Government have every economic detail?

Yes, but this principle is one which is for the economy as a whole, as opposed to individual industries.

Can the right hon. Gentleman also say what the pre-centage increase was in the subsidies over the same period?

No, Sir, not without notice.

How do these increases both in production and income compare with the industrial figures?

Again, I would need notice of that question in order to compare it with the rest of the economy as a whole.

asked the Prime Minister if he will arrange for a trial period to have Departmental answers to all Oral Questions circulated to all hon. Members on the day they are due for answer but before Question Hour, as suggested in the recent book by Mr. D. N. Chester and Mrs. Bowring, namely. "Questions in Parliament," a copy of which has been sent to him.

No, Sir.

Would not this procedure have the two big advantages that it would provide more time for Questions within the hour, and would also help hon. Members to make their supplementary questions more relevant to Ministerial replies?

In this contest of wits, I think that it would be rather unfair if the questioner had the advantage of a full day with the reply before preparing his ex tempore supplementary questions.

Is the Prime Minister aware that most of us would prefer some element of surprise to remain in respect of Ministerial Answers?