asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many third- and fourth-year non-graduate teachers have taken teaching appointments in England since 1st January, 1962.

Since 1st January, 1962, nineteen three- or four-year trained non-graduate women teachers of general subjects have left Scotland to take teaching appointments in England or Wales.

Is the Minister aware that certain categories of these third-year and fourth-year non-graduate teachers in Scotland are being paid much less than their counterparts in England? Is he aware that a third-year non-graduate teacher in Scotland receives £40 less at the minimum and £130 less at the maximum, and that a fourth-year non-graduate teacher receives £5 less at the minimum and £120 less at the maximum? In view of the unanimous recommendations of the National Joint Council, could the hon. Gentleman suggest to his right hon. Friend that these recommendations should now be adopted, or else we shall have more teachers, who are badly needed in Scotland, leaving for England?

No, Sir. During the same period twenty teachers with similar qualifications came from England and Wales to Scotland, so on balance we are one up.

Will the Under-Secretary regard this problem a little more seriously than he appears to be doing? Would he agree that in principle it is bad that cheap labour should flow from one side of the Border to the other, irrespective of what countries are involved? Does not he think that equal teaching standards should be aimed at on both sides of the Border, with equal salaries for these categories both in England and Scotland?

The Question was directed to the flow of non-graduate teachers to the South. On balance, we are level in that respect. There is no evidence that any differences in salaries in these categories or others is causing much movement.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if, in view of the Government's pay pause policy, he will circularise local authorities advising them to observe a rent pause policy.

No, Sir.

Does not the Under-Secretary think it is scandalous that in spite of the wage and salary freeze since last July, in the last few months rents have gone up by as much as 100 per cent.? There is no justifiable reason for such a policy. Is it not about time that the Government were consistent and insisted on a rent pause as long as the pay pause is in operation?

No, I do not think I can agree. My right hon. Friend's position is perfectly clear. It is that when there is an average rent of just over 10s. a week, which is not reasonable, any reasonable increases are perfectly justified even during the period of a pay pause.

Does not the Under-Secretary agree that if rents are increased, the cost of living is increased, too, and if the cost of living is increased we get demands for increased wages? Are not the Government helping to pursue a policy of inflation and thus worsening the economic and financial crisis of this country by increasing rents?

Not when the average rent is only just over 10s. a week.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will now discuss with Scottish chief constables the desirability of establishing a regional crime squad, which could be made available to any police force in Scotland on request.

As the hon. Member knows, one such squad operates in the west of Scotland and less formal arrangements for co-operation between forces operate from time to time in other areas. I think that any extension of these arrangements is best left to chief constables to arrange among themselves.

Is the Under-Secretary aware that it is not wise to dither with a necessity of this nature? Does he realise that the criminal mind is adapted to the techniques of the space age at present, whereas we are still influenced by the parish pump outlook in relation to criminal detection? Does he not think that it would be an advantage for Scotland to have its own Scotland Yard so that the cream of Scotland can be available for crime detection?

I think that Scotland Yard in England can move in only at the request of a local force. If local forces in Scotland make such a request they can receive assistance.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what decision the Government have taken on the recommendation of the Anderson Committee that full-time students in receipt of approved awards should be covered for National Insurance contributions.

This recommendation was carefully considered by the Government when the Anderson Report was received, but it was decided not to accept it.

Is it not unfair that students under 18 should be exempted while students over 18 should have either to pay these contributions or pay heavy arrears when they finally cease their education? In view of the need to encourage people to go on to higher education, would not the Government reconsider this matter?

Students' grants have always been calculated on the basis of meeting necessary expenses during the course of study and not of providing for future contingencies. It was felt that in these circumstances the arrangements which have been made on the basis of the Anderson recommendations were fair.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether, in the light of the recommendations of the Toothill Report on the Scottish economy, he will now take steps to increase the grants available to local authorities for the clearing of derelict sites.

The Committee's recommendation about derelict site grants is being studied. Meanwhile, as my right hon. Friend told the hon. Member on 7th March, a fair number of schemes have been submitted on the present basis.

Yes, but is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Secretary of State also said that the applications were not coming in as fast as he had hoped, and does he not recognise that this question is given increased urgency in view of the grim news which has come out only this morning about the imminent closures of North British and the shale mining industry? Will he not take much more urgent steps to encourage local authorities to clear up derelict sites in order to get industries to take the places of those whose closures are now on us?

Certainly we are most anxious to clear up these derelict sites but at the moment I think that we should wait till we have considered the recommendations of the Toothill Committee.

Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that this is a matter of great urgency in view of the news announced in this morning's paper that 2,500 men are to be out of work in Scotland with two closures? Does not he realise that it is absolutely essential, if we are to have greater employment for these people in Scotland in future, that sites should become available, and that it is up to the Scottish Office to get a move on in the matter?

Answer.

Is not the hon. Gentleman going to give an answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, Leith (Mr. Hoy)? Does not he regard this as being a question of the most fundamental importance to the Scottish economy? Why does he just sit there and refuse to answer the supplementary question?

I told the hon. Gentleman that we are anxious to have these sites cleared. I also told him that we were waiting while we studied the recommendations of the Toothill Committee. I am not prepared to go further than that at the moment.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what was the rate of increase of industrial production in 1961; and how this figure compares with that for England and Wales.

According to the present provisional figures industrial production in 1961 exceeded that of 1960 by almost two per cent. in Scotland and by just over 1 per cent. in the United Kingdom as a whole.

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that the record of industrial productivity in Scotland is rather worse than that in England and Wales, and if it should happen that the rate of growth in Scotland is less than 2½ per cent. will the Chancellor's policy on wages still apply? In other words, if industrial productivity in Scotland rises by 1 per cent. will the workers of Scotland still get their 2½ per cent. increase in wages?

We should obviously like to see a still more rapid expansion of industrial production in Scotland, but the figures for last year showed that Scotland did substantially better than the United Kingdom as a whole.

But the overall figure was very poor, and if it is less than 2½ per cent. do the Government then intend to tie the wages to the low productivity which is the result of the Government's policy?

Answer.

Clearly, we should like the industrial productivity to increase still further, but it is a matter of satisfaction in Scotland, I think, that during the last year our figures were better than the United Kingdom total.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if, with a view to introducing legislation to give priority to Scottish-born citizens on local authority housing lists, he will ask local authorities for the number of immigrants who have been given priority over Scottish people who have been waiting for many years; and if he will make a statement.

No, Sir.

In view of the fact that Scottish Members are always insisting on fair shares for Scotland under the Goschen formula of eleven-eightieths—

What does the hon. Member know about Scotland?

—will my hon. Friend see that Scotland gets its fair share of the immigrants and that 10,000 are sent to Dundee, whose Members opposed the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill?

I do not think that that supplementary question really follows from the original Question.

Oh, yes, it does.

Will the hon. Gentleman ensure that no attention whatever is paid to the disgraceful pleas made by his hon. Friend behind him? Is he aware that if we had jobs in Scotland there would not be any doubt about it and that a great welcome would be given to these immigrants in our country, where we are one of the most friendly peoples in the world?

Answer.

When are we going to have some answers?

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will state the total amount so far spent on the development of the Glasgow-Kilmarnock road between Eastwood Toll and Mallets-heugh, and the sums paid to house-owners in the same area as compensation.

The total amount spent so far is £607,000. This includes £37,000 paid for land and in compensation to 99 out of the total of 192 owners and occupiers concerned; the settlements in respect of the remainder have still to be completed.

While, of course, I agree with the compensation and I also agree that a splendid job is being made of this development between Eastwood Toll and Malletsheugh, will the hon. Gentleman realise that exactly the same problem as faced him on the new Kilmarnock Road faces him on the old Kilmarnock Road which runs parallel to it and a little distance from it because of the increase of the number of feuars. They are being allowed to approach too near the centre of the road? Once again, is he aware that he will have to pay compensation to these feuars comparable to that already paid on the present new road—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speech."]—unless he takes some action now?

The question—

Parish pump stuff.

—of compensation is, of course, a matter for the district valuer.

I beg your pardon, Mr. Speaker. I am terribly sorry—

The hon. Member is awake today.

—but owing to an unseemly and ignorant interruption I did not hear all of that answer. May the hon. Gentleman repeat it?

I hope it will satisfy the hon. Member. I said that this question of compensation is, of course, a matter for the district valuer.

Parish council stuff.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the number of probation officers in Scotland; and how far this number is short of establishment.

At the end of 1961 there were 164 persons—including 29 women—in whole-time service as probation officers in Scotland. Local shortages have generally been of a temporary nature. My right hon. Friend is considering the implications of the Morison Report on the future of the service.

Would not my hon. Friend agree that the staffing of this service is very satisfactory in Scotland and that it does a good job of work? Could he say a little further about the Departmental Committee and what action he proposes to take over their salaries for the future?

I think that any answer to that will have to wait till we have had time to consider the very wide-ranging recommendations of the Morison Committee.

Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that while, of course, many of us on this side of the House agree with what the hon. Member has just said about the excellent work being done by the probation officers' service in Scotland, nevertheless many jobs and tasks are being carried out in England and Wales by probation officers which are not done in Scotland and that in fact the shortage reflected in the Morison Report conceals the fact that there is a great scope for increasing probation work in Scotland?

We are considering the whole problem in its widest aspects.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what are the numbers of maternity beds deficient in each hospital region at present on the basis of the minimum requirements of the Montgomery Report; and what are the numbers that will be deficient in each hospital region assuming the hospital building programme, 1961 to 1966 is realised on schedule.

As the Answer contains a number of figures I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

May I ask the Minister if his Answer departs substantially from what has been published in the Hospital Plan for Scotland? If it does not, will he consider looking again at the priorities because, even with the present

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many fatal road accidents took place in Scotland in 1961; and what increase this represents on the previous year.

There were 671 fatalities in 1961; 23 more than in 1960. programme, there will be a very long time, almost fifteen years, before the Montgomery Report is fully implemented, particularly in the western region of Scotland?

My information is that it ought to be practically implemented within the five-year period.

Will the Minister tell us how many of the eighty maternity beds promised in 1960 and again in 1961 are now available?

I am afraid that I cannot answer that detailed supplementary question without notice.

Does not this represent an upward trend, compared with England and Wales in the same period? Is my hon. Friend aware that in England and Wales there are 750 road safety officers and in Scotland only eight? Would he not agree on the importance of providing such officers to give lectures in the schools to the children, and other lectures, in order to prevent road accidents?

I should like to consider the point about the road safety officers. Of course, we are concerned that they should be increased; but to set the figures in proportion, there has been a very substantial rise in the number of vehicles on the roads.

Is the Under-Secretary of State aware that we are going to have this problem very much worsened by the closure of branch lines and main line stations and the withdrawal of hundreds of trains, thus causing more traffic to go on to the roads and causing a greater number of accidents and greater loss of life every year? Will he consider this in any arrangements he is making for road safety in future?

I will certainly consider anything, for the improvement of road safety.

It would cost money.

English money.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when additional maternity beds will be available in Rankin Memorial Hospital, Greenock.

As indicated in the White Paper Hospital Plan for Scotland, the Western Regional Hospital Board hopes to be able to start this scheme in the period up to 1965. It will announce the actual date when it is able to do so.

Is the Minister aware that not long ago he gave me an Answer saying that this hospital would be provided for in the financial year 1962–63? May I ask when this hospital will actually be built?

All that I can say is that the regional hospital board intends to start the scheme in the period up to 1965.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what was the nature of the consultations he had with the South of Scotland Electricity Board prior to his setting the financial objectives of the Board for the next five years.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) if he will state the total net surplus set by him as the financial objective of the South of Scotland Electricity Board for the five years 1962 to 1966 inclusive, the increase this represents over the actual net surplus for the five years to 1961, and the amount that this increase represents per electricity consumer in the Board's area;

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what discussions he has had with the Electricity Consultative Council for the South of Scotland District regarding the financial objectives of the South of Scotland Electricity Board and their effect on consumer prices.

My right hon. Friend's consultations with the South of Scotland Electricity Board were by correspondence and were concerned with the level of financial return for the next five years and the Board's proposals for achieving this. The objective agreed will enable the Board to finance from revenue more than 50 per cent. of its capital requirements. It was appreciated that to achieve this objective as well as to meet various increases in costs a rise of about 10 per cent. in the Board's revenue would be necessary. The financial objective is not related to the net surplus but to the gross earnings. It is estimated that to meet this the Board's income must exceed its expenditure on revenue account by about £22 million over the five-year period compared with £1½ million during the five years 1957 to 1961. The Board referred the proposed increases to the Consultative Council and it agreed with them. My right hon. Friend had no discussions with the Council, as it is not one of its functions to advise the Secretary of State about tariff increases.

The hon. Gentleman used the word "agreed". Is he aware that a cursory reading of the Report of the South of Scotland Electricity Board demonstrates, first, that it considers that it is achieving its aim in getting cheap electricity on a sound financial framework; and, secondly, that far from this being an agreed objective it has been one dictated by the Government which has compelled the Board to raise revenue up to about £6 million by raising its tariffs purely to meet the arbitrary figure of 12½ per cent. on net capital laid down by the Government against the judgment of the Electricity Board?

I think that the contributions from revenue are needed to carry on the Board's business and to finance the development which the Board must undertake in the future if it is to meet consumer needs.

Was it agreed or imposed?

Whatever the long-term view may be, do the Government think that this is a suitable time, with the wage pause and appeals to industry to keep costs down, to impose a 10 per cent. increase in electricity prices in Scotland?

In answer to both supplementary questions, I think that the hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) misunderstood. I said that the Consultative Committee agreed with the Board's proposals. As to the point raised by the hon. Member for Glasgow, Craigton (Mr. Millan), the general position is that it is impossible to distinguish on the figures available between any increases necessarily incurred by price and cost changes and those resulting from the point in the White Paper about the necessity for improved financial arrangements being made by the Board in the future.

As this is in line with the Government's policy to ensure that the Board should be able to be more self-financing than in the past, can the Under-Secretary say what percentage of self-financing was done by the Board in the first period and what is the percentage that it is expected to have in the next five-year period? Can the hon. Gentleman also say whether the Secretary of State or the Board asked the Consultative Committee to look at this and whether it was agreed that a higher percentage should go on domestic tariffs than on industrial tariffs?

I cannot answer these detailed points without notice. On the question of capital requirements of the Board, the hon. Gentleman will no doubt have seen the comments in the White Paper. I think that the relevant paragraphs are 14, 15 and 16.

Is it not a fact that all these matters of self-financing of electricity boards in Scotland are properly the subject of inquiry by the Mackenzie Committee at the present time?—[HON. MEMBERS: "NO."] Oh, yes—and should not hon. Members opposite be invited to give evidence to the Mackenzie Committee in the same fashion that I have already given evidence myself?

On a point of order. Mr. Speaker—

May I have an answer first?

Order. I am being addressed on a point of order.

There seems to be a suggestion on the part of the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) that some limitation is automatically placed on the rights of hon. Members to ask Questions of this kind because a Committee is sitting. Is this equivalent to it being sub judice in the legal sense? This is an important point. The hon. Member has suggested that hon. Members have no right to ask these Questions while the Mackenzie Committee is sitting.

Further to that point of order—

I do not think that it is one. I do not think that we need bother about views of that kind expressed by hon. Members. I do not think they raise a point of order.

It is true that the Mackenzie Committee is inquiring into the finances of electricity in Scotland. I entirely accept everything that my hon. Friend has said about that. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Perhaps hon. Members would listen to what I am saying. I accept that point. The question that I was answering was with reference to increased charges by the South of Scotland Electricity Board.

What justification can the Under-Secretary give the House for this whole doctrine that this body must raise its capital for development out of revenue and not borrow it like other undertakings, public and private?

I think that the justifications are contained in the White Paper.

Would the hon. Gentleman answer a very simple question: was the financial objective imposed upon the Board or was it agreed?

There were consultations with the Board and the Board accepted the necessity to make the necessary changes.

Owing to the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he is taking to increase the rate of house building and school building in the areas designated as reception areas under his dispersal plans; and if he proposes to give additional subsidies to local authorities in the areas to provide accommodation for the additional population.

No special steps are being taken, and no additional subsidies are proposed because of designation under the dispersal scheme.

If the Minister has plans for dispersing the population to areas which are already overcrowded, does not he think that he should make some provision?

No, Sir. I do not think so. It is perfectly obvious that in an emergency we will have to put up with conditions which perhaps are not those which we should like to have in ordinary times.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland to what extent the towns of Ayr and Prestwick and the towns on the Firth of Clyde have been designated as neutral or reception areas under the new plans for the dispersal of the population in the event of nuclear war.

The towns of Ayr and Prestwick and the other towns on the Ayrshire coast have been designated as reception areas. Cove and Kilcreg-gan, Dunoon, Gourock and Rothesay are neutral areas.

When the Polaris submarine base came to Dunoon we were told by the commander of the "Proteus" that Dunoon was perfectly safe. Can the Minister tell us why the Government do not now regard Dunoon as such a safe area, and also will he tell us why he is proposing to make Prestwick a reception area when it is one of the most important American bases in Britain?

The intention is to disperse people from the large industrial areas. I think that the coast of Ayr, near which I live myself, is completely safe.

Will the Minister tell the House why his right hon. Friend who, apparently, is pledged to a policy of dispersal—though we cannot see how it is to take place—is retaining all the shelters in tenement properties in the densely populated areas in Glasgow?

It is unlikely that all the population will be dispersed.

Can the Minister say whether this is a new policy of civil defence which we are hearing about today, and whether a place which provides a number one target should be designated as a reception area? If so, will the hon. Gentleman offer some advice to his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary about designating air bases in the Norfolk area as reception areas also?

I should like to look into that point.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the progress of the construction of the Hunterston nuclear power station.

Work is in progress on the first reactor which is expected to be in commission by the middle of 1964. It is hoped to be able to commission the second reactor by the end of that year.

Since the contractors were allowed an extension of time because of labour difficulties, will the hon. Gentleman make it clear that the delays are not wholly the result of labour troubles? As the Board will be involved in high interest rates for the period because of this extra time, why should it be penalised in the fashion referred to earlier?

Not only labour difficulties but other considerations led to delays in construction. The hon. Member will have noted the comments made about this in the last day or two by the Chairman of the Board.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what additional assistance he proposes giving education authorities for the building of schools in new towns.

Loan charges in respect of school building in new towns, as elsewhere, are relevant expenditure for purposes of general grant. My right hon. Friend will, before next Session, consider, in consultation with the local authority associations, suggestions that have been made for amending the formula for the distribution of general grant.

Since it has been found necessary to give special treatment to new towns in respect of many services, for example, houses, in view of the large number of young children in proportion to the population, and because many of these children for whom schools will have to be found in the new towns are living in areas now in receipt of grants for them, will the Under-Secretary bear in mind that there are some factors which make it necessary for new towns to be given special consideration to meet financial difficulties?

We are well aware of the problems which have arisen and they will be carefully considered in the review.

Does the Minister believe that he will get the agreement of local authorities on these discussions and that the new town areas will be given something special in the general grant? Does not he realise that there will be great difficulty about getting agreement and that it is the duty of the Secretary of State to ensure that local authorities which have new towns in their areas do not penalise the rest of the area because they have to provide new schools in the new towns?

As I have said, we are well aware of the problems. It would be most unwise for me to speculate on what will or will not be agreed by the local authorities. We should like to reach some arrangement to meet the problem.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what action he is taking respecting the Scottish Special Housing Association houses on the Fintry housing estate, Dundee, where major repairs have been shown to be necessary.

My right hon. Friend has asked the Association for a full report as soon as possible, and to keep him closely informed of events. At the same time, the Association proposes to put in hand forthwith permanent remedial work and has been in touch with the tenants and the Town Council of Dundee to explain the necessary arrangements.

In view of the gravity of this matter, once the Secretary of State has received this technical report, will he consider holding a full public inquiry, as was done in the similar case in respect of Hatfield new town in England? Meantime, will the Minister encourage the S.S.H.A. to give every possible help to the tenants in the problems with which they are faced through this disaster?

My right hon. Friend is very sympathetic towards the tenants and will certainly do that. We had better wait, however, until we see what is contained in the technical report.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether, in the light of further incidents at Barlinnie Prison this week-end, he will reconsider his decision about an independent inquiry.

These further assaults are most regrettable. They are being investigated by the police in consultation with the Governor, and my right hon. Friend will continue to watch the position closely.

Is the Minister aware that there have been two other incidents during the week-end, which proves that the investigations at Barlinnie Prison have not been successful? Will he reconsider his decision about an inquiry.

We are most concerned about what has happened over the week-end, but it is not certain that any inquiry would add to the evidence produced by the police investigation. My right hon. Friend will do whatever seems practicable to prevent a continuance of this state of affairs.

When will the Minister face the problem? Even if it were agreed to hold an inquiry, is not the solution to the problem quite obvious? Is not Barlinnie Prison overcrowded and is not there a need for more accommodation? Will the Minister address himself to that problem and get on with the job?

Overcrowding is certainly one of the causes of the difficulties which have arisen. We hope that the new remand facilities which will become available in the summer will ease the strain.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I propose to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will call for a report from the Chief Constable of Glasgow following the riot and disorder at Ibrox Park on Saturday 31st March; and if he will make a statement.

My right hon. Friend has called for a report and when it is received he will consider if there is any further action which can usefully be taken.

Is the Minister aware that there is grave concern throughout Scotland at the shocking behaviour of the supporters of the football club who created a riot at Ibrox Park on Saturday last? If the magistrates at Glasgow fail to take the necessary steps to put an end to this type of outbreak of violence at football matches, will the Secretary of State take the necessary steps to stop this unseemly conduct by football supporters?

Not on your life.

The courts have considerable powers to impose sentences for this type of outbreak and we all deplore the fact that the actions of a few hooligans should have given such an unnecessarily unfavourable impression of Glasgow sportsmanship.

Will the hon. Gentleman consult his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State so that, in conjunction with the Lord Advocate, he may consider the possibility of sending such culprits to the High Court where more severe sentences may be imposed?

I understand that it is the normal practice for such offenders to be tried summarily by the sheriff who can award a fine of £25 or a sentence of imprisonment for three months.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what amount of money was spent on education in Scotland in the latest year for which figures are available; and what percentage increase this represents over 1951–52 after adjustment for changes in the value of money.

The total spent by education authorities from revenue and by the Scottish Education Department in 1960–61 was about £90 million, an increase of about 60 per cent. over the cost in 1951–52, after adjustment for changes in the value of money.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he is taking to ensure that the general dental services provided for Scotland are brought up to the standard of those provided in the rest of the United Kingdom.

I do not accept that the standard of general dental services provided in Scotland is lower than in comparable parts of the rest of the United Kingdom. If the hon. Member has evidence to that effect perhaps he will let me have it.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the evidence lies in his hands now—that the Report which contains the evidence was presented to him in December of last year? When does he propose to make it available? Is he aware that if we take one dental service as an example, orthodontics, and allow for the disparity in the size of the populations, the amount spent on orthodontic treatment in Scotland in the last three years was £28,000 compared with over £1 million spent in England? Does not that show that a narrower approach is made to the service in Scotland than in England?

I do not think so. The hon. Gentleman asked about the standards of the general dental services. I think that they are comparable with the rest of the United Kingdom.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware that the school building programme of Ross and Cromarty County Council has fallen several years in arrears, especially in the island of Lewis; and what action he has taken to assist the county council to speed up the programme and create a special schools architects' department since the hon. Member for the Western Isles wrote to him last September.

I am aware that Ross and Cromarty has fallen behind its former school building programme. The education authority has now, however, undertaken a comprehensive review of its schools and is framing a new building programme, based on a fresh appraisal both of educational priorities and of the availability of contractors. It is also considering the question of additional architectural assistance, A meeting will shortly take place between my Department and the education authority to discuss how best to carry through the programme.

Is the Minister aware that some of the school building schemes in the 1958 programme have not yet even been started, that there is no hope of the 1963 phase being completed in scheduled time and that only five schools a year are being reconstructed, although there are 119 schemes of relatively major reconstruction necessary? Does he not think that something should be done in the way of a crash programme now? Will he bring pressure on this local authority which clearly has failed in its statutory duties?

We have been concerned about the lack of progress for some time, but I am glad that this local authority has revised its programme and decided to discuss it with us.

May I ask the hon. Gentleman in particular to have regard to the ancillary programme of permanent canteens and to take into account through his Department that in the last five years this county council failed to take up 100 per cent. grants for permanent school canteens worth nearly £160,000 in an area where there is heavy unemployment and gross overcrowding in the schools?

We will take note of what the hon. Member has said.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware of the successful regeneration by crofters in the Western Isles of extensive areas of moorland; whether he intends to assist further the reseeding schemes; and what grant-aid he is making available for the essential third-year phase of maintenance to prevent the reseeded land reverting to bog.

Yes, Sir. My right hon. Friend has been greatly impressed by the considerable regeneration of common grazings and other croft land in Lewis, and elsewhere in the highlands and islands. Further proposals of this kind will be sympathetically considered by the Crofters' Commission. The assistance given for such schemes is directed towards the initial improvement, and not to subsequent maintenance of the improvement, and my right hon. Friend considers that the present arrangements adequately serve this purpose.

While we all endorse the compliments to the crofters concerned, who by their own hard labour and a good deal of their own money have regenerated many thousands of acres of what formerly was bog land and turned it into excellent pasture and increased the number and improved the quality of livestock, may I ask why the Government have now abandoned what is regarded as the essential third-year consolidation phase when basic slag must be applied to the ground if we are to hold progress made in the reseeding programme? Let us not abandon the whole thing for a miserable economy for which the crofters will have to pay out of their own pockets.

There is no question of abandonment. I think that the hon. Member does less than justice to these crofters, by whose enterprise this work has been done. I think it will be carried on. Maintenance is not only a question of the third-year maintenance but is required in the fourth year, the fifth year and so on.

Will my hon. Friend see that these schemes are expanded and that the good work that has been done is not lost, because it is important to maintain the quality of the land which has been reclaimed?

Every encouragement is being given to these schemes.

The hon. Gentleman said that maintenance and consolidation in the fourth year and onwards is essential. Surely it is even more essential in the third year? Is it not a fact that crofters will have to find £500 or £600 for each 200 acres in addition to what they have contributed by their labour and their own money? Does not he think that unfair?

Yes, but it should be borne in mind that these grants are running up to £14 an acre for the initial improvement.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether in view of the recent reports on smoking and lung cancer, he will call a conference of local health authorities with a view to recommending a ban on smoking in places of public entertainment.

Wider restriction of smoking in public places was one of the recommendations in the recent Report from the Royal College of Physicians which are now under consideration by the Government.

Will the hon. Gentleman call the attention of his colleagues to the well-known fact that example is better than precept? If the Government as a whole announced to the public that they were stopping smoking, does he not think that that might have a great effect on the country?

Order. I do not think that we can link the Government with "places of public entertainment".

asked the Minister of Transport, in view of the closure of railways in south-west Durham, what major road developments he proposes in their place; what they are; and when they will be started.

No trunk roads are affected and we have received no proposals for major improvements of any classified roads as a direct result of these closures.

In view of the fact that unemployment has mounted every month this year and jobs stay firmly stuck in the pipeline, does not the hon. Gentleman think that it would be sensible to advance some of the road schemes in this area until the jobs get out of the pipeline? Will he take steps with the county council to see that this happens?

No, I do not see the connection between road improvements and jobs.

If branch lines close and more traffic must go on to the roads, is it not a fair question to ask if the Government have a policy in circumstances of this kind to give special priorities to roads like this which will have to take the traffic which formerly went on the railways? It is as straight as that.

If it were as straight as that it would be comparatively simple, but the plain fact is that these roads are not where the services have been before.

asked the Minister of Transport what is the present position of the proposed Great Barr special road scheme within the borough of Oldbury; and when road operations will begin.

A draft scheme under Section 11 of the Highways Act, 1959, published on 4th March, 1960, showed this road running on viaduct over the railway for about two miles in the Borough of Oldbury. Some seventy objections were received to this part of the scheme. Detailed examination of the line has shown that it would involve substantial demolition of property and cause serious overshadowing. We are therefore investigating, in collaboration with the local authority, an alternative line to the west of the railway which seems less likely to affect homes and property. It is too early to say when road building might begin.

asked the Minister of Transport if he has now considered the recommendations of the consultative committee on the lighting of traffic routes within the London conurbation; and if he will take the initiative in setting up a similar committee for the West Midland conurbation.

In reply to the first part of the Question, I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer I gave on 24th January to the hon. Member for Islington, East (Mr. Fletcher). As to the second part, it was the lighting authorities who set up the London Committee. We should welcome any similar initiative by the authorities in the West Midland conurbation, or elsewhere, and would be glad to give them any assistance, advice or help that we can.

asked the Minister of Transport what answer he has sent to the National Council of Women's request for his assistance in securing the removal of turnstiles from public conveniences at bus and coach stations.

On 5th February my right hon. Friend told the National Council that he was drawing the attention of the nationalised and private bus operators to the Government's view, as expressed to local authorities by my right hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Local Government, and that he was suggesting that they too should pursue the course we had urged on local authorities.

While thanking the hon. Gentleman's right hon. Friend for the action he has taken in this matter, which the women very much appreciate, may I ask what reply has been received from the bus and coach undertakings? Will the Minister point out to them that it is even more inconvenient to have these turnstiles at transport centres than in ordinary public conveniences and that unless they take steps to fall into line with Government policy someone will have to introduce another Private Member's Bill to compel them to do so.

I am afraid that without notice I could not give the hon. Lady the answers we have had from the various undertakings to whom we addressed this request. We shall certainly bear in mind what she said in the latter part of her supplementary question.

In conversations with the bus companies, will my hon. Friend draw attention to the fact that one of the bus companies at Basingstoke is putting up a new turnstile in this very day and age at a new station?

Shame.

asked the Minister of Transport how many deaths there were on the roads in 1931, 1941, 1951 and 1961; and what were the ratios of deaths to vehicles in the same years.

The number of deaths are as follows: 1931, 6,691; 1941, 9,169; 1951, 5,250; 1961, 6,908.

In view of those very encouraging figures, will my hon. Friend cease harrying motorists and creating further legal penalties against motorists the whole time and adopt a different psychological approach by saying that the motorist is doing very well and try to jolly him along to do better?

My hon. Friend ought not to draw too many conclusions from these figures. I should be delighted if those conclusions could be drawn, but the figures do not necessarily indicate as good a result as might appear on the face of them. I must resist any suggestion that my right hon. Friend or the Department harasses the motorist. We have this acute accident problem in this country with which we have to deal, and all methods open to us must be pursued simultaneously.

Does not the Minister agree that the number of deaths on the roads is still appalling, in spite of the percentage figures which he has given? Does he not agree that the greatest contributoin which he could make to solving the problem is the segregation of traffic and an improvement in the road system? When will the Government get on with a road programme adequate to the needs of the day?

We are quite satisfied with the road programme as it stands at the moment. It is the largest ever known in the history of this country. My right hon. Friend has been pertinacious in pushing traffic measures forward as quickly as he can.

Will my hon. Friend amplify a little his statment that the figures are misleading? Why are they misleading?

I did not say that they were misleading. I said that we ought not to draw too many conclusions from them. The reasons for that is that the comparisons made, for example, make no allowances for the actual distance travelled. The figures do not make adequate allowance for the exposure to risk of all the separate classes of road user involved, and they take no account of the improvement in the medical services since 1931. These are some of the points involved.

To put the picture in its right perspective, is it not correct that while the figure for deaths has remained fairly consistent since 1931, the numbers of seriously injured or injured in a minor way have risen alarmingly since that time? Is not this not one of the most frightful aspects of the tragedy on the roads today?

We have never sought to minimise the road accident problem. All I was saying to my hon. Friend the Member for South Angus (Sir J. Duncan), was that he should not draw too many conclusions from the figures.

Would not a great contribution be made by some measure making more uniform the application of the law? Is it not misleading to motorists and a cause of increased danger that the law is applied and administered differently in almost every area?

Questions on the administration of the law are not for my right hon. Friend.

asked the Minister of Transport what steps he is taking to speed up the completion of the North Ferriby bypass.

The North Ferriby bypass has been open to traffic since August, 1961. The new dual carriageways immediately to the east as far as the Hessle bypass were opened to traffic last Friday. The improvement westwards from North Ferriby bypass to Welton should be completed by the end of this year.

While thanking my hon. Friend for his reply and his confirmation of the completion date, may I ask whether he is aware that after recent fatal accidents on the Ferriby bypass the local coroner had something to say about the great danger to road users of temporary diversions? Will he issue instructions to all local authorities and contractors concerned in constructing new roads to exercise particular care in the marking of obstacles, particularly at night and in fog?

Yes, Sir. I take note of what my hon. Friend said. We have very good contacts with the contractors who carry out these road schemes and there is something of a code which we have established with them. But I will see that this particular case is looked into.

asked the Minister of Transport if, in view of the piecemeal closure of railway lines and services and the consequent difficulties created in planning industrial development, he will give a general direction to the British Transport Commission to publish its railway closure plans for the next three years.

No, Sir. We do not think that a useful purpose would be served by such a direction at the present time; but Clause 55 of the Transport Bill would seem to cover what the hon. Member has in mind.

If Clause 55 is suitable, why has the hon. Gentleman not done this at once? Has he not read the report of his own central committee which says that this is embarrassing to local planning authorities? It must be just as embarrassing to industrialists in the area.

We have done something. We have put Clause 55 in the Transport Bill and got that Bill through with one sitting less than we thought we should need under the Guillotine.

Is the House to understand from the Minister's reply that in future when closures of branch lines are suggested by the Railways Board the Minister himself will give an assurance that he will take the social consequences into consideration before he finally approves such closures?

No, Sir, not necessarily. The transport users' consultative committees take all these matters into consideration. As the hon. Member knows, they report to my right hon. Friend on these matters. He therefore has these matters before him.

The Minister referred to the change which is to take place under Clause 55 of the new Bill, and with that I agree. It would appear that under that Clause the Minister will have considerably more powers than he had previously. Will he not be expected to use those powers which he has not had previously?