asked the Minister of Labour how many children who left school at Christmas, in the employment exchange areas covered by the Durham constituency, are unemployed.

Ten on 14th May.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that even though those figures may seem small they are still pretty important and are the largest we have had for some time? Does the hon. Gentleman not think it is shocking that young people should still be without a job five months after leaving school? What consultation has the hon. Gentleman had with the President of the Board of Trade to try to ensure that these young people obtain suitable employment?

We have every sympathy with the need to get these young people as soon as possible into good work, and particularly into work with training attached to it. The hon. Member knows that a good deal of work is being done by my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade to meet the needs of the area.

asked the Minister of Labour, in view of the fact that the problem of finding employment in the north-east of England for a large number of children who left school at Christmas has been further intensified by children seeking jobs in the area after leaving school at Easter, what new action he proposes to take in order to deal with the problem.

By mid-April, all but 262 of nearly 13,700 Christmas school leavers in the Northern Region had entered employment. I am hopeful that the Easter school leavers will get jobs without undue difficulty. The Youth Employment Service is doing all it can to help the young people find employment.

Has the hon. Gentleman taken any surveys recently among the industrial firms in the North-East to find out their intentions in the matter of increasing their intake of apprentices and learners? Is he aware that our information is that a number of private industrial concerns who can if they so desire alleviate the serious position among juveniles in the North-East are showing great reluctance to do anything about it? Will the hon Gentleman look into the matter?

There is a later Question on the Order Paper which deals more specifically with this subject. Last year 42 per cent. of the boys obtained apprenticeships in the area, compared with 38 per cent. for the country as a whole. This suggests that a considerable drive is being made locally.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that his reply is most disappointing, as the electors of Middlesbrough, West, will shortly show? Is he aware that the reply is not a true reflection of the numbers who cannot obtain work since many are staying at school because there are no prospects of employment?

With great respect to the right hon. Gentleman, whose experience I very much appreciate and understand, staying on an extra year at school is surely to be encouraged rather than to be put down solely to the fact that young people cannot obtain work. This extension of the use of educational facilities should be welcomed.

Is my hon. Friend aware that in Darlington private employers and British Railways foresaw this situation several years ago and took appropriate action by expanding training and apprenticeship facilities?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Minister of Labour what is the reason for the 2·8 per cent. drop in the number of boys leaving school last Christmas who entered apprenticeships, compared with last summer; what additional steps he will take to stimulate the provision of apprenticeships for the record number of school leavers this summer; and whether he will make a statement.

Many firms have their annual intake of apprentices at the end of the summer term and it is therefore normal for fewer school leavers to enter apprenticeships at Christmas and Easter. Despite this, the number and percentage of boys getting apprenticeships in the first quarter of 1962 was higher than in the corresponding quarter of 1961; and in the first four months of 1962 a higher number and proportion of boys got apprenticeships than in the first six months of last year. This is very satisfactory and indeed it is a record; but nevertheless the Government will continue to impress on industry the vital need to continue to increase the number of apprenticeship opportunities.

While I am sure that everyone will welcome the progress shown by the figures, might I put two points to the Minister? In regard to the comparison between Christmas school leavers and summer school leavers, is it not a fact that proportionately more 15-years-old pupils leave school at Christmas, and, therefore, the drop of 2·8 per cent. is a more serious decline than one might otherwise think? Secondly, in regard to the number leaving school this summer, does the Minister think that his present plans are adequate, bearing in mind the counter-effects of the Government's economic policy, which may discourage firms from taking on extra skilled labour?

As I indicated in the first part of my answer to the Question, it is not fair to compare Christmas school leavers with summer and Easter school leavers. On the second point, there is no room for complacency. I hope I made that clear in my answer. I think that it is satisfactory that we got an 11 per cent. increase in 1961 compared with 1960. Later figures indicate that we shall do a great deal better in 1962 than we did in 1961.

asked the Minister of Labour what proportion of school leavers in Great Britain, registered as unemployed, were registered in Scotland at the latest convenient date.

On 9th April, out of 859 unemployed Christmas school leavers 134 or 15·6 per cent. were in Scotland.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that this is far too high a proportion of young people who are unable to find work, and will he ask his right hon. Friend to take whatever steps are necessary to get new industry into Scotland so that young people there can find the right kind of job? What we are not told is what kind of jobs these young people are finding.

I think that the hon. Gentleman and the House must keep a sense of proportion on this matter. The 859 young people who are unemployed were the balance of 178,891 school leavers in Great Britain. The 134 which applies to Scotland were left out of the total there of 22,524. I am glad to say that young people are coming into employment reasonably well. None of us wants to see any young person without a job.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the number of apprenticeships in Scotland has been decreasing and that the jobs that they are taking up are more or less dead-end jobs? Will he look at the kind of employment that is being offered to them?

The hon. Gentleman is not really aware of the facts. I am glad to say that the number of apprenticeships in Scotland has been increasing.

asked the Minister of Labour how many boys and girls left school in Dundee on the last leaving date; and how many are still unemployed.

721 left school at Easter of whom nine were unemployed on 14th May.

asked the Minister of Labour if he is aware of the growing concern within the city of Stoke-on-Trent about the number of people who die from pneumoconiosis and from other causes aggravated by pneumoconiosis, and that 80 people have died of the disease this year; what action he has taken since the joint conference held in the Town Hall at which his Department was represented; and what further action he intends to take.

There has been an encouraging decline in the numbers of new cases, but I share the continuing concern at the incidence of pneumoconiosis amongst pottery workers. An expanded programme of research into means of reducing the dust hazard is being undertaken by the British Ceramic Research Association, grant-aided by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research. The Joint Standing Committee for the Pottery Industry under the Chairmanship of H.M. Superintending Inspector of Factories, which includes representatives of both sides of the industry and of the Research Association, considers results of research as they emerge and has already recommended to all firms in the industry a number of specific measures for controlling dust. Continuing attention to high standards of workshop practice remains of fundamental importance in combating the dust hazard.

While I appreciate that sympathetic reply, might I ask whether the Minister is aware that in this area we suffer relatively more than any other area because there we have affected by this disease not only miners but pottery and foundry workers? Is he aware that in view of the cumulative effect of these three industries, as a result of which a serious situation exists in the area, great concern is being expressed? Will the hon. Gentleman now carry his sympathy a step further by asking his officials to organise a similar conference so that all Government Departments can pool their ideas and experiences in an effort to minimise the seriousness of this matter?

I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's concern. I will certainly consider his suggestion. I would at the same time draw his attention to the fact a great deal of research is being carried out into this problem.

asked the Minister of Labour if his attention has been drawn to the continuing increase in the unemployment rate in the steel, shipbuilding, ship-repairing and metal manufacturing industries in the North-East Region of England; and what new proposals Her Majesty's Government have to assist these industries and so reduce the level of unemployment.

Of course, I am aware that unemployment in these industries continues at a relatively high level in the North-East. I hope that the discussions which I am having with the shipbuilding employers and trade unions may help the industry to improve its competitive ability. The recovery of the iron and steel industry will depend upon the state of the economy and on world trade. The industry is well equipped to take advantage of any improvement in demand.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that every time the Government implement policies which retard industrial expansion and production the industries which I have mentioned in my Question are the first in the North-East to suffer? Can he tell when he will introduce a policy which will bring about a permanent upsurge in the production of these industries and guarantee security of employment for their workers?

The hon. Gentleman must be fair and recognise that in the last ten years 63,000 new jobs have been created in the North-East Region. That is progress for which industrial development certificates are responsible. Also, as the hon. Gentleman knows, we are not sitting back content with what we have done. There are at the moment about 22,000 jobs in prospect in the region.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we are not so much concerned about the jobs in the pipeline, which we regard as a pipe dream, but we are conscious of the fact that nothing tangible is coming to the North-East to absorb the unemployment which is occurring there? When can we have something done to absorb the unemployment created by redundancy in the mines und other occupations?

The hon. Gentleman must be careful about terms that he uses. On occasions the 63,000 jobs which have been created in the area were termed by hon. Members opposite as "jobs in the pipeline" and "mere pipe dreams". There is no reason why the 22,000 jobs in prospect should not become physical facts of life like the other 63,000.

asked the Minister of Labour how many work days were lost in 1961 from unofficial strikes, and how many from official strikes.

There are difficulies in defining and classifying strikes as official and unofficial. About 3 million days were lost in 1961 through all the strikes reported to my Department. Of these, about 860,000 days were lost through strikes which were definitely stated to be official.

Does my right hon. Friend consider that the unofficial strikes are due more to Communist strength or to trade union weakness?

I think that both sides of industry condemn unofficial strikes. They have increasingly done so and shown so by action. I am sorry that I cannot answer my hon. Friend's question more specifically. Some strikes start as unofficial and end as official. Some are "official" only when they are over. Some are official at district level and are repudiated at headquarters. It is difficult to give the break-down.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say from his analysis of un-official strikes, which we all deplore, how many can be directly attributed to bad managements whose knowledge of channels of communication which the workers seems so limited?

I do not think that any of us in this House want to make political issues out of this matter. I think that in some oases the management has been shown to be responsible. In other cases irresponsible conduct on the part of certain trade union members has been the cause. What we want to obtain is a real acknowledgement of this fact by both sides of industry and an effort to eliminate it.

asked the Minister of Labour what steps he is taking to promote arrangements for severance payments to workers who become redundant.

I have missed no opportunity of emphasising the importance of proper arrangements in industry for dealing with the problem of redundancy. With the co-operation of my National Joint Advisory Council I have recently published the booklet Security and Change which gives an account of redundancy policies, including arrangements for severance payments. This has received wide publicity. My officers are always available to advise managements on redundancy problems and are constantly doing so.

Do not the requirements of the time demand something more positive than the publishing of booklets? Will the right hon. Gentleman give the House a statement of his attitude towards the Redundant Workers (Severance Pay) Bill introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Mr. Diamond)? Also, has the right hon. Gentleman read page 26 of the Labour Party's publication Signposts for the Sixties, which gives the ideas of the Opposition on this matter? Is it not time the Government came forward with positive ideas in this respect?

I do not think we ought to under-estimate what has already been achieved by methods of which the hon. Gentleman apparently does not think much. Between 3 million and 3½ million workers are covered by redundancy policies. We are making considerable progress by means of voluntary agreements. We must certainly press on with these. On the broader subject of legislation, I am prepared to keep my mind open.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that many of us on this side of the House appreciate that some of the best schemes for redundancy payments are in the private sector of industry and that they are growing, and that we hope that the worst offenders in private industry which have not got such schemes will come up to the level of the best? Is my right hon. Friend aware that any encouragement in this direction which can be given by his Department will certainly be appreciated on this side of the House?

I thank my hon. Friend for what he has said. I will certainly give all the encouragement I can. It would be a pity to take too low a view of what has been achieved. We must keep our minds open on this.

asked the Minister of Labour how many unemployed workers, who are at present signing the register in St. Helens, are registered disabled persons and what are their prospects of finding jobs.

On 16th April, 333 registered disabled persons were unemployed. There is a substantial number of new jobs in prospect in the area and this should improve the outlook for employment of disabled people.

Is this not a very high figure for one Ministry of Labour employment exchange area? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that most of the people concerned, through sickness or injury, have no hope whatever of ever being given employment again unless the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary and other Ministers are prepared to consider ways and means of overcoming this long-standing unemployment which arises from various causes? Might I suggest that consideration should be given to the commutation of pensions schemes, such as the Civil Service pensions scheme, whereby a man could be assisted to step out on his own, to help himself, where he could not get other employment? Another point is, should there not be extension of the Remploy scheme? I should like to know whether the Government have considered the extension of such schemes.

The first parts of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question are not really for me to answer, particularly with regard to pension commutations. The Remploy factory provisions have been extended over the past 12 months and a few more new places have been found in the hon. Gentleman's constituency in the last six months. This matter will, of course, continue to be sympathetically considered.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will state the percentage changes in the numbers employed in the steel-making industry in Lanarkshire between mid-1948 and the latest available date.

I estimate that between mid-1948 and mid-1961 there was a reduction of the order of 4 per cent. in the number of insured employees in the industry in Lanarkshire, excluding the City of Glasgow.

Is the Minister aware that this is one of the industries upon which the greatest hope has been placed for industrial expansion in Scotland? Does he not feel that, at a time when we are all concerned with the very slow rate of industrial growth in Scotland, this key industry shows very slight sign of expansion?

I understand that the main reason for this delay at the moment is destocking, following an actual increase in the capacity of the industry. If the hon. Gentleman would like a survey of the future prospects, perhaps he would address himself to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Power.

Can the Minister tell me why he excludes the City of Glasgow? Is it because he wants to boost his figures that he ignores the fact that during the period to which he referred there was a very large pay-off of people engaged in this industry in Scotland?

I was trying to reply, with as much accuracy as I could within the terms of reference, to the question put down on the Order Paper.

asked the Minister of Labour what proportion of the total for Great Britain of young men of 20 years and under, unemployed for more than six months, was in Scotland and the Midlands, respectively, at the latest available date.

In December, 1961, 34.8 per cent. of those under 20 years of age were in Scotland and 4·2 per cent. in the Midlands. However, since then there has been an improvement in Scotland but not in the Midlands.

Does the Minister not feel that it is a humiliating position for Scotland that so many of the young men under 20 should be out of work for such a long period? Does this not indicate that the policies followed by himself and his right hon. Friends are quite inadequate to deal with the industrial problem in Scotland?

I know that the hon. Gentleman takes a great interest in this matter. The number of young men under 20 unemployed in Scotland for more than six months has, in fact, dropped by 26 per cent. since a year ago.

asked the Minister of Labour what was the ratio of wholly unemployed boys of 18 years and under to the number of notified unfilled vacancies for boys in Lanarkshire and Warwickshire, respectively, at the latest convenient date.

At mid-April this year, for every 100 unemployed boys, there were 31 vacancies in Lanarkshire (excluding Glasgow) and 362 in Warwickshire.

Does the Minister realise that these figures show the very dire plight of these young people in Scotland? Is he also aware that most Scottish people have come to the opinion that the Act, which was supposed to bring so many jobs to our country, is not bringing them, and what do the Government propose to do to make people in Scotland really believe that the Government do not think that they are merely expendable?

The hon. Lady has put three Questions to me. So far this year school leavers in Scotland have been entering employment without undue difficulty and at much the same rate as in Great Britain as a whole. The increase in the number of school leavers in Lanarkshire this year is expected to be less than that for Scotland as a whole. The northern part of the county, where the bulk of the population is concentrated, is scheduled as a development district and 7,700 jobs are expected to accrue because of it.

Is it not the case that a large number of the young men who have been unemployed for over six months in Scotland are not genuinely seeking employment elsewhere, and can my hon. Friend say to what extent they are being kept in Scotland by the very satisfactory rates of unemployment benefit?

I think that my hon. Friend must have misheard the first part of my reply—that so far this year school leavers in Scotland have been entering employment without undue difficulty and at much the same rate as for Great Britain as a whole.

Would the hon. Gentleman on his next visit to Scotland take the noble Lord with him in order that he may learn the facts of life and the misery and tragedy which is being caused to many of the young people there?

asked the Minister of Labour if he will state in numbers and percentages the increase or decrease in the total numbers of male civil employees in Great Britain and Scotland, respectively, between mid-1957 and the latest available date.

Between mid-1957 and mid-1961, the number of male insured employees in Great Britain rose by 310,000 or 2·2 per cent.; in Scotland it fell by 26,000 or 1·8 per cent.

Do not these figures demonstrate that even the present very unsatisfactory unemployment figures in Scotland are being maintained only at that level because of the continuing migration from Scotland? Is this not another indication, as with the right hon. Gentleman's replies to other Questions, of the need for a much more vigorous and tougher distribution of industry policy?

I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman realises that since the Local Employment Act came into force on 1st April, 1960, over 30,000 new jobs have been provided in Scotland, or whether he is also aware of the fact that over one-half of the assistance afforded in Great Britain in the first two years of the operation of the Act has been to Scotland.

asked the Minister of Labour how many persons per thousand of the insured population are currently unemployed in the United Kingdom and in the European Economic Community, respectively.

On 9th April, 1962, for every thousand employees in the United Kingdom, 21 were registered as unemployed. I am afraid that exact comparisons cannot be made between the United Kingdom and the European Economic Community, owing to variations in the form and content of national statistics. I will write to my hon. Friend and let him have such information as is available.

Would not my right hon. Friend agree that the Common Market countries have effectively solved their unemployment problem, and is he satisfied that if we were to join the Common Market there will not be floods of people coming here seeking jobs?

I think that what my hon. Friend has said is true. There is little doubt that unemployment in France, West Germany, the Netherlands and Luxembourg is low. In Belgium the rate is rather higher, and in Italy substantially so, although it is falling. In Italy, however, there is for the first time a real shortage of skilled labour.

Instead of writing to the hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley), will the right hon. Gentleman publish the figures in HANSARD?

Because of the different ways in which these statistics are compiled, it is difficult to obtain proper comparisons. I will not make a promise now, but I will discuss the matter with the hon. Member for Southwark (Mr. Gunter) and also write to my hon. Friend.

Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that, whether we join the Common Market or not, there is great need for an expansionist industrial policy in this country?

I thoroughly agree with the hon. Gentleman, and I hope that everyone else does, too.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will list those industries where wage increases granted so far during this year have been over two and a half per cent.

As the answer consists of a tabular statement, I will, with permission, circulate the information in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

In view of the fact that any increase over 2½ per cent. harms the economy as a whole, does not such a list constitute a black list of those putting their sectional interests in front of the national interest?

It is true that, in many cases, settlements have been reached far in excess of what the Government would have considered reasonable within the terms of their incomes policy. It is my view, however, that the policy has had a tremendous effect, taken over all, in seeing that settlements have not been as high as they would otherwise have been.

Would it not be more accurate for the right hon. Gentleman to say that, as the list is so long, he does not wish to reveal it at this moment? Will he not admit, in view of what that list will contain, that the "guiding light" is rather dim? Can he also tell us at what stage the 1922 Committee will discuss this situation in the light of his answer?

The hon. Gentleman will not deny that the incomes policy has had a very considerable success. One of the obvious reasons why it may be shown to be a success is that we are now more competitive than we have ever been in our history. That would not have been so unless costs had been kept down to a reasonable level.

As there has been a certain amount of inconsistency in these increases, does not my right hon. Friend think it necessary for the Government to take more powers to ensure more fairness between one award and another?

That is a very different question, although I would be only too delighted to answer it.

asked the Minister of Labour what percentage of the insured population of Wigan was registered as wholly unemployed at the latest convenient date.

2·3 per cent. at 9th April, 1962.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, whilst the comparative figure may seem small, there has been an in. crease in the number of those wholly unemployed in Wigan and district at a time of the year when that number usually falls? Will he watch this situation very carefully?

I accept the fact that there has been this increase, and we are keeping a close eye on it. If the hon. Gentleman would like to keep in close touch with me, I should be glad if he would do so.

asked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been drawn to impending redundancy among Dundee gas workers; and what steps he is taking to provide alternative employment.

Yes, Sir. Our local officers have arranged to register the men affected in advance of their discharge and they will do everything possible to find alternative work for those seeking it. Generally the prospects for these men are good.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this redundancy was foreshadowed two or three years ago? Technical change showed that it would come about. Is it not disappointing that a Government board should not have taken more adequate steps to run the establishment down without redundancy? How early was his Department informed of this, and what steps did it take to prevent unemployment?

I cannot answer the hon. Gentleman's last point without notice, but I will endeavour to find out and let him know.

Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that it is not altogether the fault of the board but also of the Government for not producing alternative employment for these men earlier in Dundee when it was known for a long time that this situation would arise?

The right hon. Gentleman should bear in mind that that is part of the reason why the Government have scheduled this area as a development district. Over 11,000 workers there are now employed in jobs created since the war. Of these, about 7,000 are employed in Government-built factories.

asked the Minister of Labour what consultations are held, and with whom, before decisions are made about the siting of employment exchanges; and to what extent such decisions are based on a population basis within a given area.

Under the Employment and Training Act, 1948, my right hon Friend has to decide what is a fit place for an employment exchange and, in doing so, an account of local opinion is naturally taken. There are not necessarily any formal consultations. The population of the area in question is among the matters to which attention is given.

Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that it would be to the advantage of many people who have to sign on the unemployment register if sub-offices could be opened? He has had correspondence with me about one specific case where people signing on had to take two different buses to the main office. It would be an advantage if more sub-offices were opened.

Wherever it is convenient to do so, either an out-office is established or some other arrangement is made. I will see whether something convenient can be done if the hon. Gentleman will write to me about the details of any particular case.

asked the Minister of Labour how many children in the Sedgefield Parliamentary constituency who left school at Christmas are still unemployed; and what are their immediate prospects of employment.

Five on 14th May. The Youth Employment Service is making every effort to help them obtain suitable employment.

If there are only five, they must be in the street where I live. The Sedgefield constituency ranges over 240 square miles. Is he telling me that there are no children unemployed in Darlington Rural District, Stockton Rural District or even Sedgefield, apart from these five?

I said no such thing. The hon. Gentleman's question referred exclusively to those who left school at Christmas. He asked how many are still unemployed. The answer I have given is five on 14th May.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will state the number of unemployed registered at the Newmilns, Ayrshire, Employment Exchange at the latest available date, for the preceding six separate months, and for April, 1960 and 1961, respectively; and how many of these are women in each case.

As the reply consists of a table of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science what plans he has for the expansion of the Road Research Laboratory at Crowthorne, and for the co-ordination of its work with that of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development.

The main object of moving the Road Research Laboratory to Crowthorne is to concentrate in one place units now scattered over six sites. Expansion of staff numbers will be continued as the resources of the D.S.I.R. permit. Discussions are now taking place through the O.E.C.D. on possible forms of international cooperation in road research.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the Road Research Laboratory at Crowthorne is the most advanced institute for the study of road safety in Europe? Will he do all he can to reach an agreement with O.E.C.D. in order to ensure that co-operation between these two bodies is expedited?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his tribute to the very good work done by the Laboratory, and I can assure him that we are all very keen on getting international co-operation on road construction and road safety.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science if he will increase the funds available for research into water conservation.

The funds available for research into water conservation and utilisation have increased in recent years and under current plans will continue to increase.

Are the funds available to water authorities and river boards increasing? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that before the new central authority envisaged in the White Paper can operate a great deal more research will be needed into the very complicated problems of water conservation?

I agree that more research must be done into water conservation and utilisation, and we now have a hydrological research unit, recently set up at the Hydraulics Research Station. The bodies mentioned by the hon. Gentleman are not the responsibility of my noble Friend.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science if he will state the total expenditure to date, and the estimated expenditure in the next 12 months on space research.

As regards the first part of the Question, I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave the hon. Member for Eastleigh (Mr. David Price) on 19th February. On the same basis, expenditure in 1962–63 on scientific space research for which my noble Friend is responsible is expected to be about £1·1 million.

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that this expenditure is mainly, if not exclusively, for war purposes?

No. None of it is.

Would it not be better if instead of reaching for the moon we concentrated on making it easier for the harassed Londoner to get from Hyde Park to Piccadilly Circus?

We are not contemplating reaching for the moon.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science if he will give the weekly figures supplied by the Atomic Energy Authority for the concentration of radioactivity per kilogram of air in Great Britain for each of the last three weeks and the average for May, 1961.

I am advised that the comparison of figures relating to fallout at particular dates can be misleading because it is the long term trend which is significant. However, representative figures for total beta activity in air near ground level for the last three weeks have been—

Do not those figures show that the level is roughly 30 times what it was last May? Is it or is it not now the Government's considered view that even small doses of radiation are dangerous?

The figure now is well under half the level for May, 1959, and substantially lower than that for May, 1957, and that for May, 1958, so taking one particular year alters one's mathematics considerably. I can only repeat that I am advised that it is considered most unlikely that the fall-out to be expected this spring will rise to levels requiring special measures to be taken.

Would my hon. Friend be good enough to give me five minutes of his time some time to explain what his original Answer meant?

I will willingly give my hon. Friend six.

May I repeat the question which the Minister did not answer? Is is or is it not now the Government's view that even a small dose of radiation is dangerous?

All radiation has an effect upon human beings, but what we are now considering is the matter of the cumulative effect of natural radiation and man-made radiation. The radiation caused by nuclear tests has so far been relatively small, taken overall, in relation to natural radiation.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary for Science if he will make a statement about the proposed Social Science Research Council.

I have nothing to add to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Lanark (Mrs. Hart) on 27th February.

I think that the Parliamentary Secretary said some time ago that discussions about this matter were going on. Can he give us any idea about when they are likely to come to fruition?

I hope to be able to make a statement soon.

asked the Lord Privy Seal (1) if consideration has yet been completed of the Report of the Commission of Inquiry into the incident between the Danish Gunboat "Niels Ebbesen" and the Aberdeen fishing vessel "Red Crusader"; and what steps he intends to take to prevent the occurrence of such incidents and to promote and maintain harmonious relations between the Danish Government and British fishing vessels;

The Commission's report is being examined by the Departments concerned. In considering what further action should be taken, full weight is naturally being given to the findings of the Commission about the use of gun-fire against the "Red Crusader". In the interests of improving relations between the two sides, we intend to discuss with the Danish Government the methods of enforcing fishery limits.

Is the Under-Secretary aware that it is now, unfortunately, part of the express policy of the Danish Government to abandon its friendly relations with the Scottish fishing fleets in favour of violence such as that referred to in the Questions? Will he give an undertaking to embark on top-level conversations with the Danish Government with a view to restoring the harmonious relations which have hitherto existed between it and the Scottish fishing fleets? Does he realise that the answer to that throws a very sinister light on the negotiations about the Common Market?

First, may I be permitted to say how delighted I am that the hon. and learned Member is quite obviously fully recovered from his unfortunate indisposition? I entirely disagree with him in his strictures against the Danish Government. The position, as he knows, is that we have had these findings of fact from the Commission. They are complex and they involve questions of far-reaching importance. I am sure he will agree that it is important that we give great consideration to them before we eventually decide what we should do.

Does not the hon. Gentleman appreciate that the sum mentioned in my Second Question is now liquidated debt due by the Danish Government to the owners of the "Red Crusader", and will he see that that sum is recovered speedily?

I only wish that the matter were as simple as that. The Danish Government's view is that there are counter-charges against the captain and the "Red Crusader".

asked the Lord Privy Seal if he will make a statement on his discussions with Mr. George Ball regarding the European Economic Community.

I have nothing to add to what I said on 18th April in reply to questions from my right hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) and the hon. Gentleman the Member for Ashfield (Mr. Warbey).

Had the Minister's attention been drawn to an article by Mr. Alsop in today's Guardian regarding the provision of nuclear secrets to France? Was this subject raised in his discussions with the Americans? Is it intended to provide these secrets to France as the price for Britain's joining the E.E.C.? If we are to do that, did American permission have to be obtained beforehand?

This matter was not raised in my discussions with Mr. Ball, which were purely about international economics. There is no question of the United Kingdom breaking any arrangement with the United States of America.

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether, in the current negotiations with the European Economic Community, it is the policy of Her Majesty's Government to attempt to secure for Great Britain a permanent veto in the Council of Ministers

The Treaty of Rome provides for unanimous voting in the Council on some matters, even after the transitional period is over. As a full Member of the Community, we would enjoy the same right of veto as the other members.

Does my right hon. Friend agree with a veto for individual countries permanently in the Council on all issues and that, in the enlarged Community of ten countries, a veto for one small and one large country would seriously weaken the whole structure of the Common Market? As the Leader of the Opposition has recently advanced both these proposals, will my right hon. Friend say whether he would be helped in his negotiations if there were fewer such comments, apparently designed to wreck the Community, coming from those Who sit on the fence in these matters?

There are certain provisions laid down in the Treaty which require an unanimous vote. The remainder of the provisions are covered by the method of qualified weighted voting, and the question at issue, which will have to be discussed later in the negotiations, is the balance of the weighted voting. It is quite natural that it has got to change. I was not aware that the Leader of the Opposition was suggesting that it should remain exactly as balanced at the moment. I thought that he was referring to the general question of the progress we have made in these discussions.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that British public opinion will not accept exchanging Parliamentary democracy for bureaucratic rule in Europe?

That is a gross oversimplification of the provisions of the Treaty of Rome.

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether in the current negotiations with the European Economic Community it is his policy to secure for all Commonwealth countries Associated Overseas Territories Status under Part IV of the Rome Treaty.

In my statement to the Six Governments on 10th October, 1961, I said that we should like to see the less developed members of the Commonwealth, and our dependent territories, given the opportunity, if they so wish, to enter into association with the Community on the same terms as those which will in future be available to the present associated overseas countries and territories.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Opposition, even, I think, the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, seem to be calling for this condition as an essential to our signing the Treaty of Rome? Will my right hon. Friend make it quite clear that this condition is unreasonable in view of the nature of the Community and the Treaty which they have signed?

Our position is that we have asked for the less developed countries of the Commonwealth to have the opportunity of association if they so wish. This does not apply to the developed countries of Canada, Australia and New Zealand. [HON. MEMBERS: "What happens there?'] We are making special arrangements of an alternative kind for those, which have been described in my statement and in the detailed statements that I put in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Will the right hon. Gentleman make it clear to his hon. Friend that since last August we have used the phrase that it is inconceivable that the less developed countries, the British African territories and ex-British African territories, should receive worse treatment than is accorded to the French and Belgian territories under present arrangements? This was our position, has been all along, and still is.

That is the Government's position, that there should be no difference between the arrangements for association for all associated territories.

Can my right hon. Friend say whether he has inquired of the African territories whether they would be willing to accept these conditions?

I think that all the independent countries of the Commonwealth and the dependencies will wish to see the nature of the arrangements in their final form before they make a decision.

Can we take it that the answer to my hon. Friend's Question is "No"?

There is no question at this stage of asking countries for their views on this.

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether, in his recent discussions with the Egyptian Minister of Economics and Finance, the question was raised of Egypt's continued failure to implement the agreement of 28th February, 1959, in relation to compensation for British subjects.

The United Arab Republic Government have fulfilled their obligations under Article IV of the Agreement of 28th February, 1959, which provided that they should pay a sum of £27½ million sterling as compensation to British subjects whose property had been Egyptianised or had suffered damage before the date of the Agreement as a result of Egyptian measures. The United Arab Republic Government have also duly paid £100,000 sterling to Her Majesty's Government as an interim payment under Article III (f) of the Agreement in respect of compensation due to British officials dismissed by the Egyptian Government in 1951.

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that answer. Can he hold out any hope, for the many British people who still have not received compensation, that some action will be taken on this matter by the Egyptian Government in the near future?

We must distinguish between payment of compensation for Egyptianisation, which has been made by the Egyptian Government in its payment of £27,500,000 sterling, now being distributed by the Commission under Orders in Council placed before the House, and the present difficulty, which is one of transfer of property existing in Egypt. Under the Financial Agreement, it was arranged that this should amount to £5,000, but it has been limited by agreement between ourselves to £1,000 owing to shortage of exchange. We are examining ways of dealing with this problem.

asked the Lord Privy Seal what consideration he has given to the British Council of Churches' recent statement on Angola, a copy of which has been sent to him; and if, in view of the United Kingdom's ancient treaty with Portugal and of the repercussions in Commonwealth African territories of events in Angola, he will take action as called for by the United Nations' General Assembly's resolution of 30th January, which Her Majesty's Government supported, by initiating consultations with the Portuguese Government along the lines suggested in the statement, and thereby help to secure the early implementation of the right to self-determination of the Angolan people.

I have read the recent statement by the British Council of Churches on Angola. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the Portuguese Government are well aware of our views in this matter.

But does the right hon. Gentleman mean by that reply that he is pressing the Portuguese Government on this matter? Does he recall that in this resolution, for which the British delegate voted, not only was the Portuguese Government's oppression in Angola deeply deprecated, but also member States were called on

"to use their influence to secure the compliance of Portugal "

My noble Friend has on a number of occasions discussed this with members of the Portuguese Government, and, in the case of the Portuguese Foreign Minister, very recently.

The right hon. Gentleman said that the Portuguese Government were in no doubt about our views on this matter. Will he say what Britain's views are? Has he made it plain to the Government of Portugal that we deeply deplore and repudiate the whole of that policy in Angola.

What sort of a position would Britain be in in resisting proposals from the United Nations Commission on Southern Rhodesia if at the same time we were trying to influence the opinions of a great and friendly ally, namely, Portugal, as to how she should conduct her affairs?

It is because we are in alliance with Portugal that we are able to exchange views about this matter. Portugal clearly understands the difference between our colonial policy and the policy which she pursues.

The right hon. Gentleman has not answered my quesion. Is he aware that although we deeply deplore the Government's attitude on Southern Rhodesia, no one on this side of the House has suggested that we are treating the people in Rhodesia as the Portuguese are treating the people in Angola. Will the hon. Gentleman make it very plain that despite the ancient alliance—and some of us feel that we pay a very high price for Catherine of Braganza—will the right hon. Gentleman make plain the complete horror that is felt in this country about Portuguese behaviour in Angola?

We have discussed this in the House on previous occasions and the Government have made their views about Portuguese policy in Angola perfectly plain.

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he will make a statement about the latest developments in Laos, and at the Laos Conference in Geneva.

There has been no change in the military situation since my statement in the House on 15th May. The Geneva Conference remains in being, but it can make no further progress until a Laotian delegation representing a Government of National Unity is present.

Has the Lord Privy Seal seen the article written from Laos last week by Angus Maude? Can he assure us that Prince Boun Oum, who has frustrated the formation of a Government of national unity for so long, is no longer receiving arms from the United States Central Intelligence Agency?

As I have stated before, I am not responsible for the operation of the Central Intelligence Agency of the United States. We have no responsibility for it and I cannot give information about anything which may be going on. What is true is that we know that the United States Government are using all the influence they can with Prince Boun Oum and General Phoumi to bring about a Government of national union in Laos, and the British Government have supported all these efforts.

Since what happens is determined by whether Prince Boun Oum receives arms or not, as has been made plain by The Times messages quoting diplomats in Laos in recent weeks, can the Government assure us that they have made representations to the United States Government that this supply of arms should stop?

The British Government have been in close touch with the United States Government in order to bring these three princes together. The fact is that General Phoumi's forces were routed at Nam Tha and obviously his military position has suffered in consequence.

While accepting that it is the desire of the British and American Governments to see the establishment of a genuinely neutral Government in Laos, would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that to achieve this a recalling of the Geneva Conference might be desirable? Is it not unsatisfactory that that Conference cannot apparently be recalled until there is first single real Laos representation there?

With respect, the Geneva Conference is still in being and those representing the delegations are there. As I told the House, it has completed its work and set out a possible agreement which only requires the signature of a United Government of Laos. The question is whether that Conference can play any part in restoring the cease-fire in Laos. I think that the situation at the moment is that there is no further military activity going on in Laos.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that we on this side of the House welcome the initiative of the Government over the last year in attempting to form a neutral Government in Laos?

If, as the right hon. Gentleman said, there is no change in the military situation in Laos, are we to understand that Thailand is not in danger of aggression from that quarter, and in those circumstances will the Government abandon this idea of sending forces there?

When I said that there was no change in the situation, I covered the period in which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister announced the offer of Her Majesty's Government for part of the Royal Air Force to go to Thailand if the Thai Government so requested.

When, in answer to my right hon. Friend, the right hon. Gentleman referred to the situation in Geneva, is it not a fact that last January agreement was reached in Geneva on the formation of a neutralist Government, and that as part of that operation Prince Boun Oum and General Phoumi Nosavan agreed that the disputed portfolio should be placed at the disposal of Souvanna Phouma, and has not most of the trouble since then been due to the failure of Boun Oum and his colleagues to honour the agreement that was worked out at Geneva? Since it is American and British policy that the Geneva Conference decision be upheld, should not there now be even more pressure on those holding up the agreement in Laos to accept what was settled in Geneva?

The right hon. Gentleman is always asking me to apportion blame between the three different parties in Laos as to why a national Government has not been agreed upon. Both the right hon Gentleman and I know the difficulties in the formation of Governments of different kinds, and I do not wish to say that any one of the princes is in particular responsible for a hold-up in forming a Government. I have seen enough disagreement about who should hold portfolios in this Government of national union to know that it is impossible to apportion blame on to one side.

Would the right hon. Gentleman make it clear that the action taken by the United States Government does not in any way conflict with the responsibility of the Security Council to investigate, under Article 34, any situation which may lead to international friction?

The responsibilities of the Security Council are governed by the Charter.

Can the Lord Privy Seal confirm that during the last few days General Phoumi has been in Formosa in order to seek military support for the continuation of his civil war, and has secured an agreement with General Chiang Kai-shek that Nationalist Chinese forces still at present in Laos and Thailand shall be used on his side?

I have seen reports that General Phoumi has visited Formosa, but I have no knowledge of any agreement such as that which the hon. Member alleges to have been made.